S06.E13: The Same Boat

[lulee]

I love her, but Carol needs a remedial math class...R + K + D + L + 3 Terminus courtyard + Candlewoman + 7 wolves = 15, not 18.

 

Someone mistakenly added the "4" that appears next to Candlewoman to the total.

I was confused about the accounting after last week's kill journal page. So I rewatched "No Sanctuary." It could be a clumsy production error, but it could just be that some were omitted. We are only shown her killing 3 (or maybe even only two in the courtyard - one by a door and one on a roof), but we're not shown her every step. So it's not super-farfetched for the numbers to include some kills not on screen before or after the candle room. I don't think there's evidence that Carol miscounted, just that things weren't shown. Now I wonder if we were shown her killing exactly 7 Ws.

[sluggish neko]

Didn't it seem that Maggie got more information out of that interrogator? It was more like Maggie was forced to listen to the angry girl's therapy session-- lost a finger, tattoo is for my father, lost a boyfriend... blah, blah... Maggie's all, compared to the Governor, this interrogation's a cake walk. I was expecting Maggie to take her out right then and there.

 

ETA: When did Maggie get so bloodthirsty-- kill, kill, kill? Did I miss something?

Edited March 14, 2016 by sluggish neko

[AngelaHunter]

Bae ain't here for silly bald fools toying with him in the ZA.

 

Dying here!

 

Who knew the ZA would be a place to hold a pissing contest over who has the most dead kids? Alicia's four sure tops Carol's one.

[Madding crowd]

I actually am a little sick of the non-stop violence. What kind of world can they rebuild if everyone becomes a savage killer? I was happy to see Carol act a bit more human-I don't want any of the characters to lose their humanity; then they just become avatars on a video game. I wonder if Maggie lost the baby, really intense fighting plus getting hit in the stomach can't be good.

 

I'm also tired of hearing the name Neagon while not actually seeing him. I don't know if these people know who he is, or think it's the name of a group-but either show him or shut up. I actually find this whole war ill advised since Rick and Co do not know much about the group, how many people are in it or anything really. I liked the scene with Carol and Daryl at the end.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Madding crowd

[shanndee]

One of the things I liked about the characterizations this episode were that Daryl recognized right away that Carol was not ok.  And that Carol had no trouble admitting it to him.  And it was the best Maggie's been in a while.  She (and Carol) both managed to juggle frightened, confused, calculating and tough convincingly. No Rambo and no sniveling wrecks either. 

 

Yes. Maggie and Carol were exactly what I wanted them to be. Frightened and conflicted, but capable of doing what they needed to in order to survive. Not superheroes and not damsels in distress. Mature, capable women working shit out for themselves.

 

And yes, the Carol and Daryl relationship has been given criminal short shift this season. It may never be romantic, but it is close and deep and needs to be seen more often. Both characters enhance the other.

 

Good episode. Great to see the women free themselves rather than wait for the men to "rescue" them.

[TigerLynx]

Rather than another one of the core group being killed off, although there are some of them I wouldn't miss.  If the writers are going to continue to have people like Carol, Glenn, Maggie, Morgan, etc. question the killing and whether they can keep doing it, I would also like some focus to be on the people who don't step up.  It doesn't seem fair that certain people are always facing the danger, or having to make the hard choices, while others never do.

[HighMaintenance]

I liked this episode quite a bit because it was Carol-centric.  I find her the most interesting member of CDB, even more so than Rick or Michonne.  Plus MMB is a really good actor and can really sell Carol as a torn/broken character.  However, Lauren still drives me crazy with Maggie's way over the top southern accent that is almost a parody of a southerner.

 

Alicia Witt always seems to play characters that are just real pain in ass people.  I've disliked just about every character she's played starting with  her turn as Zoey, the snotty daughter in the mid-90's sitcom Cybill.  She did get a really cool gory death scene though.

 

All this "we are all Negan" crap was just a bit too over the top.  I mean, talk about hive mind.  And when Primo says it at the end of the episode I thought "NO!  I'm Spartacus!"

[SoSueMe]

A couple of observations.

 

I got a kick out of Moll. As a former smoker, I can appreciate the fraternity/comradery of being willing to share your cigs with a fellow smoker. Even one who is pretty much your enemy. I also find myself worrying about the cigarette supply running out and I don't even smoke anymore!!! WTF

 

The other thing is that I appreciate that the writers always make sure the when a radio is called for in the episode it has somehow miraculously been charged up and ready to go. Way back when I used them in my job, they had to be plugged in overnight to charge. Alexandria has power, but how about the Saviors? 

 

 

[shanndee]

I enjoyed the episode. I wonder why Maggie's captor, Chell?, left her alone. She was interrogating her & then disappeared. I also think that Maggie getting cut in her stomach could end hurting her unborn child.

 

Wasn't she responding to Red's "all hands on deck" order to go find Rick and Co. when she realized how close they really were? I got the feeling they got together to make a plan to fight, believing that the bound hostages were not a concern.

[SimoneS]

Negans D crew would have faired better if they took Spencer and YOUgene. After all the Hilltop folks they kidnapped, beat and ordered about they probably thought capturing two women in the woods would be easy peasy lemon squeezie. Guess they didn't realize they took two of baddest bitches in the apocalypse. Love that the women on this show is just as bad ass as the men. Nothing like I thought would shape up back in Season 1 when Carol had an ironing board.

 

I was doing re-watch and there was Carol ironing and Andrea hanging clothes. I had to laugh and shake my head as Rick thanked Carol for washing his uniform. It was like being in Bizarro World. Only Maggie is the same.

Edited March 14, 2016 by SimoneS

[catrox14]

I swore I heard

Jeffrey Dean Morgan's

disembodied voice right before Carol flambe'd those guys.  Did anyone else hear that?

Edited March 14, 2016 by catrox14

[MrsRafaelBarba]

I was wondering the same thing, every time she was onscreen -- where have I seen her?

NBC's medical drama Night Shift.

[RedheadZombie]

I liked this episode quite a bit because it was Carol-centric.  I find her the most interesting member of CDB, even more so than Rick or Michonne.  Plus MMB is a really good actor and can really sell Carol as a torn/broken character.  However, Lauren still drives me crazy with Maggie's way over the top southern accent that is almost a parody of a southerner.

 

On TD, Paul Feig called Carol, "the best character on television".

Lauren's accent has always been bad. She said that she started off hanging around the Teamsters on set, and ended up with too thick of an accent. You can actually watch her mouth struggling to say certain words. I noticed her OK sounded like O-Kye.

[peach]

I liked the "we are Negan" thing.  Now they have to wonder if it IS some kind of cult instead of a particular leader.  Like when that original motorcycle guy said, "Your stuff belongs to Negan."  Like, wait, all of them? But I guess at Hilltop they said it was an actual person.  Still, it's creepy and unsettling, which is what they wish for it to be, apparently.  Primo was smirking about it before Rick blew his head off.

 

It was interesting when they had Carol and Maggie in the vehicle, and you could overhear Paula talking on the radio with all their codes and protocols.  The most maddening thing about Rick and Co is they don't have any g-ddamn PROTOCOLS!  lol  I had a hard time getting over the fact that they didn't have protocols for evacuating the prison.  Like, hey, if we're ever attacked, let's meet at the old barn on route 27 or whatever.  Or places to leave notes, or anything.  So, I give the Saviors props for having good logistics even if they're evil.

[walnutqueen]

Bye, Alicia.

Edited March 14, 2016 by walnutqueen

[Boofish]

Unpopular opinion but I think Carols conscious is bothering her because she is in fact the only cold blooded killer in the group. Lots of arguments to be made that Rick is as well (see running cop). There was absolutely no justification for killing Karen and David and in some respects Lizzie. Had she only killed potential, immediate or perceived threats her sanity may still be somewhat intact. Don't get me wrong I love Carol but I can see why she is having a hard time living with what she has done. To me that is the difference between Ricks group and other groups. These other people seem to take pleasure living in a lawless land yet they are nothing but weak yes men. At least people in Ricks group challenge the status quo even if it makes them unpopular.

[AngelaHunter]

I'm also tired of hearing the name Neagon while not actually seeing him.

 

I'm hoping this won't follow the Terminus arc - seven episodes of foreplay building and building, then wad blown in seven minutes flat.

[TexasChic]

I'm willing to overlook an over-the-top southern accent as long as it's not supposed to be Texan. And even then it depends on where in TX. But Lauren Cohen does do a weird thing with her mouth like she's overdoing the pronouncing of words.

[Eyes High]

I actually thought for a moment that the actress playing Chelle was Jewel Staite. The actress' name is Jeananne Goossen.

 

Poor Alicia Witt.  As a fellow pale-skinned redhead, makeup is our friend.  And why was her hair drenched like she just got out of the shower?

I had to laugh at "Paula" (Alicia Witt's character) having flawless porcelain skin, despite her sob story about her rough life. Rather than wetting her hair to downplay the actress' looks, maybe fuck up her face a little with makeup or prosthetics and give her a scar or two? 

[lmsweb]

Maggie's baby should be just fine...she said she's only 2 months along (which I'm hand-waving as inconsistent writing since it's 2 months since the night of Carl's eye getting shot out and she was far enough along at that point to already confirm she's pregnant), and that early on the baby is actually pretty well protected since the uterus still sits low and is protected by the pelvic bones.

 

Also, I was kind of rooting for them to bring the woman ("Chelle") into their fold. She seemed like the type who might have been able to blend back in with them, and she seemed kind of over the whole Negan thing. She mostly wanted to know where Maggie was from because she had nice clothes and clearly enough time and safety to get cleaned up and get pregnant.

[CofCinci]

Nearly 2 hours after the close of the episode and only 2 pages of comments. It was a terrible episode. We spent 40 minutes waiting for what we knew would happen. It was like that terrible Morgan cage psychiatrist episode.

[peach]

I also don't think Carol's crisis of conscience is anything new.  She accepted exile for killing K&D, and only came back because of danger.  She stuck with Tyrese because of Judith, and trying to return her.  After Terminus she was going to take off in the middle of the night, but Daryl found her, and then they got sidetracked searching for Beth.  But she was going to go be wander the earth like Jules from Pulp Fiction.  The rescue mission helped bring her back physically into the fold, but she shut herself off emotionally.  She was just biding her time at Alexandria, waiting for the inevitable shit to hit the fan.  This last couple months of "peace time" has allowed it all to break free, especially with nosy Morgan picking at her scabs.

[riverheightsnancy]

I have to wonder how many of the Saviors have actually met Neegan? (not a spoiler, I haven't read the comics). Perhaps they either become part of the cult or die? Most people will join if they are out on their own and need a group to shelter with.  If we remember back to the episode when those guys stole Daryl's bike. They were trying to escape (sounds cultish). They couldn't "just" leave. They made mention of needing to be "on their knees". I thought of bowing down, praying "to the man". In many ways I thought that statement had religious overtones and with the Rosary and Carol tonight, that strengthened that idea for me as well. Perhaps Neegan stays more frightening, if his "cult" only hears of him. They never see him in the flesh. He is like an omnipotent GOD. All powerful. He has your life in his hands. He sees and hears everything. You never know when or where he will show up.  That could be some scary stuff. 

[peach]

She mostly wanted to know where Maggie was from because she had nice clothes and clearly enough time and safety to get cleaned up and get pregnant.

 

I felt that way, too.  Like, heeey, so where is this place (and can I go there, too??)?  And this is probably the first group she's encountered that ever held a candle to the Saviors.  But, alas, she had to dance with the one that brung her.

Thought it was weird, though, when during the nighttime kidnapping of Maggie and Carol that one woman took a moment to covet Maggie's jacket. It's a great jacket, but... Really?

 

I thought it was a bit of a power move.  Like, we got you, and your stuff is ours.

[candall]

...but they were always contrasted against either an even less sympathetic enemy (taken to absurd extremes with The Wolves) or incompetent civilians too stupid to survive. This is the first time the group really "looked in the mirror", so to speak, contrasted against people as equally hard bitten, resourceful and desperate for survival as them...and not necessarily coming off as the "good guys" in the process. It's something we've perhaps come to expect from Carol, but Maggie's ferocity and pragmatic cruelty was properly jarring.

 

Well acted, well executed, thematically resonant. Really solid hour of television. I now anticipate another 1.5 seasons of bleh, as per Walking Dead formula.

What an excellent analysis.

 

It was fairly obvious when 'Chelle and Maggie were sitting toe-to-toe that we were looking at Maggie mirrors.  But Paula and Carol being initially similar is so much more complex.  While I was watching it, I thought the point of having those two paired up was to emphasize the evident badass+victim roles versus the actual badass+victim roles.  But, hooah, so much deeper than that:  what price retaining one's basic humanity blah blah.

 

I think it's great they've had so many seasons of CDB facing down all these unquestionably evil people and now they're going subtle by CDB having so many things in common with the new adversary.  Pitting the ultimate villain leader, Negan, against our show hero, Rick, should be really exciting.  (In fact, I can't even imagine where the group would go after that and not be anticlimactic.)

 

Anyway, good stuff.  I can't wait!

Edited March 14, 2016 by candall

[chuckity]

I love me some Carol.  

 

And I would like to think that I would be a Carol in the ZA:  cookies in one hand, Colt 45 in the other.  But in truth,  would probably be a Sam.  Oh well.

 

Anyway, I am very concerned that this is leading to a season finale of Carol biting the big one.  Perhaps sacrificing herself for Maggie & the baby.  The character arc plus Melissa McBride's interview on the TD couch was giving me bad vibes.  

[Samsnee]

I'm already sick of Negan.

[shanndee]

What an excellent analysis.

 

It was fairly obvious when 'Chelle and Maggie were sitting toe-to-toe that we were looking at Maggie mirrors.  But Paula and Carol being initially similar is so much more complex.  While I was watching it, I thought the point of having those two paired up was to emphasize the evident badass+victim roles versus the actual badass+victim roles.  But, hooah, so much deeper than that:  what price retaining one's basic humanity blah blah.

 

I think it's great they've had so many seasons of CDB facing down all these unquestionably evil people and now they're going subtle by CDB having so many things in common with the new adversary.  Pitting the ultimate villain leader, Negan against our show hero, Rick, should be really exciting.  (In fact, I can't even imagine where the group would go after that and not be anticlimactic.)

 

Anyway, good stuff.  I can't wait!

 

Yes to all of this! I am one of the people who is getting tired of how predictable and formulaic the show has become. When I see an episode like this, that tries to incorporate some subtly and address character issues like "what price, humanity" and "where is the line between hero and villain" I get excited. I fear that the writers may not have the skill (and that Kirkman may handcuff the show runners and stop this exploration in favour of MOAR violence and carnage because it is EDGY!).

 

But I can hope, right?

[forum4idiots]

god damn, carol...genius.

[ShadowSixx]

Thank Goodness Alicia Witt's character died. I'm sorry but AW is one of the worst actresses I've ever seen. Everything I seen her in, she's just been flat out horrible including Walking Dead. I'm amazed that she's able to still get work.

 

They all once again take out more of Negan's crew making the group a little too invincible, have to tone it down just a bit. I did like the episode and Carol struggling on whether or not to kill as she told the girl to just run as she didn't want to shoot her. Is Carol afraid of having a high kill count or is the weight of killing so many humans starting to weigh on her? She didn't want to kill anyone until that one with the huge mole scratched at Maggie's stomach. Carol said don't harm the baby, people just don't want to listen lol. 

 

I'm thinking once they meet the real Negan, they might not be so invincible.

[peach]

I have to wonder how many of the Saviors have actually met Neegan? (not a spoiler, I haven't read the comics). Perhaps they either become part of the cult or die? Most people will join if they are out on their own and need a group to shelter with.  If we remember back to the episode when those guys stole Daryl's bike. They were trying to escape (sounds cultish). They couldn't "just" leave. They made mention of needing to be "on their knees". I thought of bowing down, praying "to the man". In many ways I thought that statement had religious overtones and with the Rosary and Carol tonight, that strengthened that idea for me as well. Perhaps Neegan stays more frightening, if his "cult" only hears of him. They never see him in the flesh. He is like an omnipotent GOD. All powerful. He has your life in his hands. He sees and hears everything. You never know when or where he will show up.  That could be some scary stuff. 

 

Great post.  Just today, I watched a documentary about Warren Jeffs' FLDS cult, called Prophet's Prey (on Showtime).  The level of control his man has, even from prison, over his group is terrifying.

[Yolapukka]

 

I felt that way, too.  Like, heeey, so where is this place (and can I go there, too??)?  And this is probably the first group she's encountered that ever held a candle to the Saviors.  But, alas, she had to dance with the one that brung her.

 

I wondered that myself. However I think a drawback to switching might be the idea that if her people caught up to her she'd likely be in for brutal treatment or death. Also, I don't think she'd be happy once she realized that her new neighbours included the people who blew up her boyfriend, which led to her getting a finger severed as punishment for looking for him. What I thought the scene did best was showing Maggie getting a lot of information out of her while seeming to take her thinly veiled threats seriously. 

Edited March 14, 2016 by yuggapukka

[SimoneS]

Nearly 2 hours after the close of the episode and only 2 pages of comments.

 

If you go to the pre-air and live thread, you will see that there are about two pages of comments about the episode after it aired because the episode thread didn't open until about 15 to 20 minutes after the episode ended.

I'm already sick of Negan.

 

Yeah, I am starting to feel the same. They are overplaying the build up to his first scene.

Edited March 14, 2016 by SimoneS

[SimoneS]

 Lauren Cohan absolutely killed it. Might be her best acting to date on the show. 

 

I still think that Lauren's best episode was the one where Phillip terrorized and threatened to rape Maggie, but this episode is in the running for her best performance reel.

[Dobian]

Lesson of the episode: Don't take anyone from Rick's group hostage.

[EyesGlazed]

Amazing episode.  Great acting by all.  So tense.  I was scared that one of Carol or Maggie wouldn't make it.  I loved the focus on the women.  What a contrast to S1 and S2, where we had to sit through all the macho crap with Rick and Shane and even little Carl.

 

Alicia Witt did a great job, I thought.  For much of the episode I wondered whether Paula was Neegan.  Guess not.  It was great how the actress made Paula obnoxious, tough, scary, but also human and even funny.  All three of the Savior women had their redeeming qualities which made it tragic that they were killed even as I was cheering that they were killed because it meant Maggie and Carol survived.  Show, you get me every time.

 

On a shallow note, what must it be like to be hugged by Darryl?  And by that I mean the stink.  I'd like to see an episode where bad guys smell Darryl coming and have time to be prepared, so all of CDB stages an intervention to make Darryl shower, for the good of the group.

 

 

[Artsda]

What the heck happened to Carol? It's like she forgot about what world they were living in. She was acting like stupid Morgan.

 

I did love that the 2 of them took out the entire group holding them.

 

I kept expecting not one of the 2 of them to make it out. 

[Eyes High]

I doubt it was an overt Game of Thrones reference, but if it was, Molls and company calling Carol "little bird" was the funniest thing.

 

Is Carol afraid of having a high kill count or is the weight of killing so many humans starting to weigh on her?

The thing Carol fears most, I think, is herself: becoming a terrifying, remorseless killer who has completely lost her humanity. Paula boasted about having stopped caring about killing once she hit double digits, as if this was proof of her strength. Carol can be the person who kills without feeling (look at how quickly and coolly she put down Chelle when she aimed at Maggie's belly), and that capacity is what scares her the most, I think.

 

I did like Paula's characterization. I think as Alicia Witt suggested on TTD, she seemed to sense that there was something "off" about Carol, thus all Paula's preening about how strong, tough and ruthless she was. If Carol was such a helplessly inferior and weak little bird, why all the attempts at dominance? All of the boasting and bragging came off as oddly defensive and was proof of her insecurity and weakness. Truly strong people don't constantly talk about how strong they are or tear others down to make themselves appear strong. Compare and contrast with someone like Jesus, who is incredibly competent but who is unshowy and modest about it.

 

I guess that's why it's hard for me to take the Saviours seriously. "Negan" might be a force to be reckoned with, but the individual Saviours are way too invested in talking about how strong and tough they are. If you need to talk about what a badass you are, you're not.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Eyes High

[paigow]

On a shallow note, what must it be like to be hugged by Darryl?  And by that I mean the stink.  I'd like to see an episode where bad guys smell Darryl coming and have time to be prepared, so all of CDB stages an intervention to make Darryl shower, for the good of the group.

Make Daryl recover stuff from the sunken truck...like tricking a dog into taking a bath....

[forum4idiots]

poorly written episode.

 

i think the reason i hate the "i am woman hear me roar" shows is that they are usually so poorly written.

 

so you expect me to believe that the neeganite biatch is so bad ass which is why she is a leader.....the woman who got sucker punched and was down a few minutes.  compound that with the "other badass women" looked in horror.....huh?so these so called bad ass women in charge were shocked when the guy hit their leader and watched in shock while their hostages defend her....wtf?  so this is the same woman who supposedly ook out her boss when she was a secretary?  and countless others?  and as the idiot guy pointed out, why didn't she just shoot carol and maggie if she is supposedly such a hardened post apocalypse badass?

 

to make matters worse, the back story...ugh.  so paula is so disgusted by carol's "weakness" ......but she decides to share her her life story?  really?  fair enough, sharing ones life story flashback just means you are about to die...so whatevs.  paula is so bad ass that during her carol one on one, she has to cry.......the hardened bad ass who, by her account, killed more than double digits, start crying?  ok then.  i guess they had to somehow insert that coffee bean analogy to make it seem like the episode is deep to an extent.../facepalm.

 

and the other neganite...."i'm so bad ass", but my finger got cut cause i got caught stealing a car cause i had to look for my boyfriend.......ok.......the bf, from her own account, was a dick.  oh, and her interrogation tactics......."let's have girl talk"  shouldn't you be torturing your prisoner for info instead of having a cup of tea chatting about babies?

 

maggie, so sick of her.  i hope neegan introduces her with the baseball bat.....but as all things go in this show, they like to keep the annoying characters.

 

carol...the only redeeming part of this episode.  is this the beginning of her mental breakdown?  so many hints of her imminent death as the season finale.....so sad.  how is it this woman does not have an emmy yet?  as this bad episode has proven, she give it some sort of credibility.

Edited March 14, 2016 by lovebug1975

[mornnoch]

 

 

Who knew the ZA would be a place to hold a pissing contest over who has the most dead kids? Alicia's four sure tops Carol's one.

I think Carol considered Mika, Lizzie and Sam as her children, too.

[forum4idiots]

just look at the flowers  paula  just look at the flowers

[ShadowSixx]

I doubt it was an overt Game of Thrones reference, but if it was, Molls and company calling Carol "little bird" was the funniest thing.

 

The thing Carol fears most, I think, is herself: becoming a terrifying, remorseless killer who has completely lost her humanity. Paula boasted about having stopped caring about killing once she hit double digits, as if this was proof of her strength. Carol can be the person who kills without feeling (look at how quickly and coolly she put down Chelle when she aimed at Maggie's belly), and that capacity is what scares her the most, I think.

 

I did like Paula's characterization. I think as Alicia Witt suggested on TTD, she seemed to sense that there was something "off" about Carol, thus all Paula's preening about how strong, tough and ruthless she was. If Carol was such a helplessly inferior and weak little bird, why all the attempts at dominance? All of the boasting and bragging came off as oddly defensive and was proof of her insecurity and weakness. Truly strong people don't constantly talk about how strong they are or tear others down to make themselves appear strong. Compare and contrast with someone like Jesus, who is incredibly competent but who is unshowy and modest about it.

 

I guess that's why it's hard for me to take the Saviours seriously. "Negan" might be a force to be reckoned with, but the individual Saviours are way too invested in talking about how strong and tough they are. If you need to talk about what a badass you are, you're not.

 

Negan's crew are nothing but fuck ups. That one group that Daryl blew up with the rocket launcher did all that time talking instead of killing Abe, Sasha, and Daryl. Just went on and on and basically talking about nothing. Daryl was able to easily take out the one that lead him back to the truck without making much of a sound not even a thud. They were able to easily kill Negan's security or whoever those guys were with not so much of a scratch. Then these "badass" women get easily knocked off by Carol and Maggie. Negan's crew for the most part right now are shit. 

 

With the way his crew is coming off I'm surprised Jesus hasn't taken them out all by himself by now. 

 

This Negan build up is very lackluster at best. You would think as much as his crew talks him up Negan would have better trained or prepared his crew to be badasses and stop wasting so much time talking. That's all they do is talk.

Edited March 14, 2016 by ShadowSixx

[GaT]

I really thought either Carol & Maggie were going to die, I'm really surprised they're both still alive.

[thuganomics85]

Whelp, I was worrying over nothing, apparently.  Carol and Maggie pretty much get out of the little jam all on their own and wiped out Alicia Witt and her merry little band of criminals, which really just consisted of a chain-smoker, an annoying jackass, and Dr. Krista from The Night Shift.  I guess it was kind of interesting that Carol actually was hesitant to kill anyone and was sincere about trying to get out of this without bloodshed.  Instead, Maggie was the one pushing to just end it all.  I guess when she gives Gregory her word, she was dead serious.

 

So, the Saviors are crazy overall and are in some kind of "We are Negan" mindset.  I'm guessing it's just a mindset, unless Negan is like The Borg form Star Trek and is mind-linked to everyone.  If anyone starts saying shit like "assimilated" and "resistance is futile", I guess we'll have our answer.

 

The chain-smoker actually did make me think it would be interesting if there were more characters who already were dying because of something else, and had a more "I don't give a fuck" attitude about things.  So, when the more insane missions come up, they can just be like "Whatever, I'm in!  Cancer's going to take me out in about six months, so bring it!"

 

They better deliver on Negan, which is close to impossible, because they keep placing him on a higher pedestal.  

I've enjoyed Jeffery Dean Morgan in most of his work, but even he's going to have to amp it up to 100, to make me fully by Negan as this charismatic powerhouse, that the show wants me to believe.

[phoenix780]

My only curiosity about Negan is why he/they didn't just wipe out Hilltop, or conquer it and rule from there. Beyond that, eh.

I like Alicia Witt and enjoyed the backstory her character gave. Much more informative than the prequel series (which IA is inferior to the one-minute episodes about the flight). Plus, I felt like it was their strongest slower story and a lot of that, for me, was her.

[Eyes High]

Whelp, I was worrying over nothing, apparently.  Carol and Maggie pretty much get out of the little jam all on their own and wiped out Alicia Witt and her merry little band of criminals, which really just consisted of a chain-smoker, an annoying jackass, and Dr. Krista from The Night Shift.  I guess it was kind of interesting that Carol actually was hesitant to kill anyone and was sincere about trying to get out of this without bloodshed. 

 

If Carol had had her previous Terminator mindset, the episode would have been a lot shorter.

 

It's funny that for all of Carol's shaking and hesitation towards the end of the episode, she did some truly cold shit:

 

1. She didn't bother to put Paula out of her misery when she was being eaten alive about a foot away from her.

2. She took away Paula's walkie talkie and did a credible imitation of Paula to lure the other Saviours, all over Paula's screams of agony.

3. She confided in Maggie about her guilt over creating this situation by not killing Donnie...right before burning five people alive. (I'm also pretty confident that the plan to burn them alive was Carol's.)

 

I mean, it was clearly causing her a great deal of pain to do those things, but...

 

With all that said, as Carol realized, this whole situation was created by her decision to shoot Donnie in the arm instead of the head. Poor Carol. She hung back with Maggie to avoid killing. She shot Donnie in the arm to avoid killing. As a result of those two decisions, nine people are dead.

[bmoore4026]

I'm sorry, but all these Saviors are asking for it.  I know they're trying for some sort of moral ambiguity stuff, but the Saviors we've seen have been nothing but sociopaths. 

 

"You're not the good guys."  Yes they are, so fuck you lady.

 

Carol, feel bad if you want to, but they would have killed you, Maggie, The Group, and possibly everyone in Alexandria and The Hilltop.  What you did was not a mistake.

Edited March 14, 2016 by bmoore4026

[Unusual Suspect]

With all that said, as Carol realized, this whole situation was created by her decision to shoot Donnie in the arm instead of the head. Poor Carol. She hung back with Maggie to avoid killing. She shot Donnie in the arm to avoid killing. As a result of those two decisions, nine people are dead.

 

I don't know if I agree with this. Carol's main motivation was protecting Maggie, and I don't think she shot Donnie in the arm on purpose. I know, we're used to seeing the whole team make improbable headshots, but Donnie surprised them, it was dark and he was moving much faster than a walker. 

[Eyes High]

I don't know if I agree with this. Carol's main motivation was protecting Maggie, and I don't think she shot Donnie in the arm on purpose. I know, we're used to seeing the whole team make improbable headshots, but Donnie surprised them, it was dark and he was moving much faster than a walker. 

 

Carol said "I should have killed Donnie too in the woods. I had a clear shot, I didn't miss. None of this would have happened if I'd just killed him."  It sounds as if she avoided a headshot on purpose.