S06.E08: Season 6, Episode 8

[scenicbyway]

So Tom looked like the only happy person at Mary and Henry's wedding. He is their #1 shipper so I guess it makes sense...

I'll never understand why they brought in Henry (a race car driver of all people!) when it's been clear since matthew's death that Tom is Mary's best friend and confidant. They have chemistry and spend more time with each other than anyone else yet we're supposed to believe that Tom's been celibate since his own wife's death and isn't attracted to Mary? I mean they went so far as to have him on all the dates and talk to her afterwards about each one! He's been the only one to challenge her and get away with it! Dumb Fellowes!

[PRgal]

Those kids Mr. Moseley teaches are brats! Also, it seems the village school looks like it is catchment for a few local communities - looks more like a community elementary.

[nara]

Glad people are FINALLY calling Mary on her spiteful behavior! That should have happened when she was a teenager! I'm a little annoyed that she got her happily ever after so soon after screwing over Edith. She didn't even stop to think about how much Edith has suffered over the past few years. Though I have to admit that Edith used the nuclear option first, back in season 1, when she revealed Mary's affair with Kemal Pemuk to that gentleman's father...Not terribly thrilled with Mary's choice of husband--I likedCharles Blake from season 4, and thought he was better suited to Mary. Big fan of Matthew Goode, but I find his character Henry Talbot to be not much of a life partner for Mary.<br /><br />

[RedHawk]

How many times did I wish an instant fatal heart attack on Carson this episode? At least 5. And then Mrs. Hughes forgiving him for all his crap? When did he become totally awful, not just awful some of the time? He showed not one ounce of loyalty toward his long-time co-worker Mrs. Patmore, who did her best to make sure he and Mrs. H became a happy couple. Then when he tried to say something nice about not realizing Thomas had a heart, it sounded flat and insincere. Wow, I really dislike that character now. One more episode -- JF still has time to bump him off!

 

Lovely to have George visit Thomas and give him an orange. Mary should long ago have intervened and told Robert that they shouldn't push Thomas to leave. And Robert should have been more understanding of the situation also, being the one who explained to Matthew that servants played particular roles and their work gave them dignity. If they wanted him to move on so much, they should have used their connections to help him a decent job.

 

I hope Bertie goes off and thinks of how Edith seemed trying to tell him something but never quite got it out. He also needs to think about how Mary betrayed Edith out of spite. He's witnessed Mary being nasty toward Edith before -- maybe he can understand all her fear and hesitation.

Edited February 22, 2016 by RedHawk

[WatchrTina]

 

Even Violet said that it was a good thing Edith was gone so that she could talk to just Mary.

I just interpreted that as Violet being glad to focus on Mary, where her advice might actually do some good.  All she could have done for Edith was to be sympathetic. 

 

 

When did [Carson] become totally awful! He showed not one ounce of loyalty toward his long-time co-worker Mrs. Patmore

Ah but at least we had the satisfaction Lord Grantham putting him in his place over his trying to stop the tea-party.  I actually cheered Robert at that point.  And really -- when you consider the scandals this family has been connected to:  one daughter with a dead Turk in her bed, one with an illegitimate child, one running off with the chauffeur, a valet arrested for murder, then released, then re-aressted for a different murder, then released only to have a lady's maid arrested for the same murder -- well they certainly weren't going to be fussed over local notoriety for taking tea at a house of ill repute.

Edited February 22, 2016 by WatchrTina

[statsgirl]

Her family's sympathy is something Edith has had too little of.

 

Being such a shrewd nutcracker, Violet might have had some suggesting for Edith (like writing to Bertie?) but the way it came out, it seemed like only Mary mattered to her. As she does to Fellowes.

 

Carson was all round awful this episode -- depressing Mosely's hopes, damning Barrows with "I never thought he had a heart" even after the suicide attempt and "protecting" the family at the cost of Mrs. Patmore.  Maybe someone will stick a pin into him and let all the hot air out.

[AZChristian]

I saw this episode on DVD a couple of weeks ago . . . and found it even more wonderful this evening on second viewing.  So many people told Mary she was a bitch, even though only Edith used the exact word.  I cheered then, and I cheered again tonight.

 

It was long overdue.

[roomtorome]

I don't think Edith had decided to never tell Bertie about Marigold; my take was she was still processing probably just HOW to tell him (which is something many people can relate to - secrets big and small are hard to confess) and she may also have been wanting to wait until after things had been settled re: his cousin.  But, I really don't think she had decided to not tell him - at least that was my take.

 

I did like that they all hauled themselves over to Patmore's B&B - Carson is such a pompous ass.  Really.  

[Amethyst]

How many times did I wish an instant fatal heart attack on Carson this episode? At least 5. And then Mrs. Hughes forgiving him for all his crap? When did he become totally awful, not just awful some of the time? He showed not one ounce of loyalty toward his long-time co-worker Mrs. Patmore, who did her best to make sure he and Mrs. H became a happy couple. Then when he tried to say something nice about not realizing Thomas had a heart, it sounded flat and insincere. Wow, I really dislike that character now. One more episode -- JF still has time to bump him off!

 

Something I remembered was Carson exasperatingly muttering about "suicidal footmen" when they were mentioning scandals.  Just...ugh.  Thomas didn't nick himself shaving, the man was trying to kill himself, and Carson can only consider how will affect the family.  I just wanted Mrs. Hughes to haul off and smack him across his smug face.

 

Even though he did admit the "Thomas has a heart" stuff later, that bit stuck with me.  Carson may be obtuse, but that was just cruel.

[Popples]

When Robert told Rosamund that she couldn't understand because she didn't have children, I wish she had told him that when one of his children was in trouble, Rosamund was the one she turned to.

 

God, could Carson have been more of a dick about Mrs. Patmore's B&B? Lady Rosamund offered to go and Cora thought it was a great idea.

 

I adored the school children listening to Molesley. And another episode where Daisy was lovely and she told everyone at the dinner table that he's a natural teacher.

 

Did not see Spratt being the "Dear Abby" or whatever the name was. Hilarious!

 

I don't feel like I've ever been beaten over the head so badly about a potential relationship like I have Mary and Henry. Even after Mary completely ruins Edith's life, Edith tells her how Mary is so in love with Henry. What the hell?

 

Sometimes I forget how Isobel is connected to this family. Does she even see her grandson? After that scene in the nursery when George was an infant, I don't think they've shown them together at all.

 

Really, Mary gets another wedding?!

 

Tom and Henry should have driven off into the sunset in racing cars. That would have been the best ending.

 

Ugh, I don't watch the Oscars and I have to wait a week longer because of them? Boo. That Christmas special better be everything I desire because this episode was highly unsatisfactory. I WILL FIND YOU JULIAN FELLOWS!!!

Edited February 22, 2016 by Popples

[RedHawk]

Speaking of that dead Turk in Mary's bed. I do hope some evening when she and Henry are sitting round after dinner with Edith and Bertie and Tom and whoever he marries, Edith will make a little quip along the lines of, "Oh Henry, now that you've been married a few years, I guess you've escaped the Curse of Lady Mary. I mean, her first lover died in her bed, and then her first husband died in a car crash. What?! Mary, you didn't tell him about Pamuk the Turk? Why would you keep such a secret from your husband?"

[Macbeth]

Sad Thomas has ruined another potentially great moment.  Rosamund  was a about to let Mary have it with both barrels when the news broke.  But Mary still couldn't stop being a bitch by blaming Robert for the suicide attempt.  Good for him with the "below the belt, even for you."

 

Mary never learns ever.  Robert once made a comment that Mary treats men like toys that she can put aside and they'll still be there when she wants to play again.  

 

This was when Mary flirted with Edith's potential beau at the time, Anthony Strallan, to put Edith in her place.  But of course - what else is new.  She ignored Matthew so she could flirt with another man,and he had enough of her crap- just like Henry did early in this episode.  

 

Of course they both came crawling  back to that unworthy bitch - so why should she learn?

 

Although it is nice to know that her family know her well enough not to hold Mary in high regard.

 

I loved that the family supported Mrs. Patamore - as they know very well that she is not a frolicker.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Macbeth

[RedHawk]

I want Cassandra Jones to be Spratt and Denker. It's not like they don't have time, sitting around the Dower House doing little beyond gossiping and stamp collecting. I thought it was too silly that it was Spratt -- I mean, what are the odds? Both of them, however, would have been funny in that soap opera way. Then we could have seen a flashback to them making up a couple of letters, laughing together and everything.

Edited February 23, 2016 by RedHawk

[statsgirl]

Baxter continues to be one of my favourite characters, possibly because she's not only smart, she's got a good heart. Better than Mosley's.

Poor Mrs. Hughes. I'm glad she gave Mosley permission to try teaching at the school as Carson was depressing his pretensions.

I don't think Edith had decided to never tell Bertie about Marigold; my take was she was still processing probably just HOW to tell him (which is something many people can relate to - secrets big and small are hard to confess) and she may also have been wanting to wait until after things had been settled re: his cousin.  But, I really don't think she had decided to not tell him - at least that was my take.

She might not have told him if he wasn't going to be the Marquis and Edith outrank her. But the minute Robert became gleeful that Edith was going to outrank them all was the minute Mary determined Edith wasn't going to have it.

I liked The Prisoner of Zenda mention, but Tom dear, Mary is no Princess Flavia.

[LittleIggy]

I guess I'm in the minority here because I think Bertie was too hard on Edith. Surely he could understand how difficult it would be for a woman in her station to admit that she had an illegitimate child. And how dense was he that he couldn't pick up on the signals that there was something in her past bothering her? I too think that before megabitch Mary opened her mouth Edith was still trying to figure out how to break the news. To me, Bertie's reaction was all about him.

I cheered when Mrs. Hughes mentioned all of the adulterers who had dined upstairs at the Grantham's table. Touché!

Edited February 22, 2016 by LittleIggy

[Temperance]

I did think all of them, but particularly Lord G tried to be good to Edith in this episode. I find Henry rather insipid and think/thought Mary has far more chemistry with Tom.
At least Edith has Marigold and her newspaper.
Also it's seems historically inaccurate for Mary to be getting married in a white dress, as a widow in her thirties with a child in the 1920s.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Temperance

[helenamonster]

When I saw that this thread was at 8 pages before the American broadcast, all I could think was, "What kind of Mary/Edith bullshit went down this episode?"

 

I have tried, y'all. I have tried with Mary. I love Michelle Dockery, and I thought she was fantastic with what she had to do in this episode (she should definitely submit it for her Emmy reel). But like...what the fuck. I don't even like Edith anymore. I outright despise her. But...dude. Come on.

 

On the other hand, what in the bluedilly fuck with everything else happening this episode? I was so confused every time someone insisted that Mary was just "mad" about Henry? Really??? Cuz if one of my friends/family members was acting that way about a guy my first instinct would not be to invite him to stay over. He was so creepy on the stairs with his whole "I will never stop until I have you" or whatever bullshit he was talking about. I never got any sort of loving vibe from Mary, I truly believed she wanted him gone. And then all of a sudden at the end, they're married??? What??? What is happening? I don't...I can't...ugh, FELLOWES.

 

Then you've got Thomas's afterthought offscreen suicide attempt. I don't even care about the dude but what a weird way to handle things.

 

Spratt being Miss Cassandra Jones? What? Why??? I do not believe for a goddamn second that that guy gives a fuck about the kinds of lady problems a woman would write to an advice column about.

 

The only highlight this episode was Molesley coming out on top with the teaching thing. He deserves his success and to see someone who spent so much of the series bumbling around be so venerated and respected was amazing.

 

Idek what to expect out of the finale. At this point just give Anna and Bates a healthy baby, I'm so tired of everything else.

[Dejana]

Also it's seems historically inaccurate for Mary to be getting married in a white dress, as a widow in her thirties with a child in the 1920s.

 

Not an ettiquette expert, especially of 1920s England, but Mary wasn't wearing pure white, more of an off-white or cream and in a suit with a hat, so I don't think she wouldn't have been regarded as making herself look too "girlish" or mimicking a first-time bride, even back then. OTOH, with Mary and Edith's wedding dresses in S3, the costumer cared more about them looking palatable to modern eyes than strictly following the wedding trends of 1920, which IMO wouldn't have looked nearly as flattering to us in the 2010s.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Dejana

[RedHawk]

I guess I'm in the minority here because I think Bertie was too hard on Edith. Surely he could understand how difficult it would be for a woman in her station to admit that she had an illegitimate child. And how dense was he that he couldn't pick up on the signals that there was something in her past bothering her? To me, his reaction was all about him.

I cheered when Mrs. Hughes mentioned all of the adulterers who had dined upstairs at the Grantham's table. Touché!

I thought his reaction was overdone and not really in character from what we've seen of him. Why keep mentioning the dragon-lady mother if that wasn't going to be his chief fear -- that SHE would never accept Marigold? Or if he had said something about Edith not telling him now that he's a Marquess and his position will be so public that such a secret would be hard to keep quiet so she was setting them up for trouble in future.

"You didn't trust me" being the huge offense when they really haven't known each other that long? Ah, it's just TV fiction. I have no doubt Bertie will be back.

[helenamonster]

Yeah, I'm unspoiled, but I'm expecting Bertie (and his mother) to show up in the CS. Why spend so much time talking about her if she never shows up?

 

I know, I know, that kind of logic doesn't apply to this show, but...

[crowceilidh]

Well.  I am gobsmacked that I actually suspected Barrow was going to try to off himself and then he actually did.  I thought the recovery in time to attend the wedding in the front row of servants with the sun shining on him from the church windows was a little like the obligatory Ewoks getting medals at the end of Jedi while everyone turns to the cameras, but I thoroughly enjoyed the episode for the most part which hasn't happened in a while, so I guess I won't complain.

 

Mary and Henry are not particularly believable, but they did look quite good together in the car after the ceremony.

 

I loved Edith saying, "you look nice btw" and loved everyone piling on Mary about what a bitch she is.

 

The Dowager Duchess's hat on return from Europe was dreadful with her travelling suit but all the other hats were awesome.

 

So many loose ends.  I really thought Rosamund was going to publically claim Edith as her own - there were several lines about children between Rosamund and her brother and sister-in-law that could have had two meanings and seemed to be tending in that direction...

[helenamonster]

I feel like that dialogue that Robert and Rosamund had was a deliberate way for Fellowes to tell the audience that any speculation about Edith being Rosamund's was never going to come true. I also think the show has passed the point where such a reveal would mean anything.

[allboys]

Oh good, I was afraid that Mary wasn't going to get her happy ending.

[blackwing]

I have always been a Mary apologist and while I don't agree with the way she told Bertie, I'm glad she did. Cora herself was saying to Rosamund that she wanted to tell him herself. The whole family agreed that Edith should tell him. And when Edith chickened out, someone had to do it.

I don't think Edith had decided to never tell Bertie about Marigold; my take was she was still processing probably just HOW to tell him (which is something many people can relate to - secrets big and small are hard to confess) and she may also have been wanting to wait until after things had been settled re: his cousin. But, I really don't think she had decided to not tell him - at least that was my take.

I disagree. He was proposing to her. She was going to become the Marchioness of Hexham. In an age of propriety and scandal, this would have ruined him. Two adulterers dined at Mrs Patmore's B&B and it would have ruined her business, and Carson was even worried that people would find out she was connected to the Granthams and that it would bring scandal on them. The new Marchioness had a secret baby out of wedlock that she has been passing off for years as her ward? Would have blacklisted them.

Speaking of Bertie, wasn't Lord Hexham the one who was gay and would rather paint flowers or something like that? Or am I confusing him with Henry's family member that was the earl? If it was Bertie's cousin that everyone knew was gay, I am puzzled at the line that no one thought Bertie would inherit since his cousin was young and everyone knew the girl he was going to marry and presumably have an heir with.

I truly hate that Thomas gets a happy ending and that he is staying at Downton and presumably will become butler one day when Carson dies or retires. Maybe I am cold, but he has treated people poorly for years. Now he tries to kill himself and everyone feels sorry for him and coddles him? It would be interesting to see if he truly changed (like Scrooge) or would go back to being nasty.

Confused about Daisy as well. What exactly does passing her exams mean? That she is eligible to attend college? That it is the equivalent of a GED and she can get an office job?

I thought everyone looked great at the wedding. Happy for Mary. When she was at Matthew's grave I wondered why we had never seen it before. And I was also wondering why she and Isobel never had any scenes alone together just as they met on the walk.

[helenamonster]

Speaking of Bertie, wasn't Lord Hexham the one who was gay and would rather paint flowers or something like that? Or am I confusing him with Henry's family member that was the earl? If it was Bertie's cousin that everyone knew was gay, I am puzzled at the line that no one thought Bertie would inherit since his cousin was young and everyone knew the girl he was going to marry and presumably have an heir with.

 

The cousin was the Marquess of Hexam and gay...he had a marriage arranged but everyone seemed to know it was on paper only. He'd probably have sex with his wife enough times to produce an heir and then go back to painting young naked men in Tangiers.

[izabella]

It is so weird how Mary had everyone so worried about her and distressed about her great invisible love affair with Henry.  I was amazed to hear all those people talking about how strong Henry was, and how he was perfect for Mary, and how tragically sad it was for Mary that she turned down his proposal. 

 

All the drama and angst between Henry and Mary was entirely of her own making and choosing, from her rejection through to summoning him to propose to her again.  Mary was so upset at her self-manufactured drama that she had to butt into Edith's engagement and blame her dad for Thomas' attempted suicide.  And now I'm supposed to be happy for her?  And happy for Henry?

 

Edith is a selfish fool, and that's why she is alone.  It was selfish of her to think she could start their marriage by continuing to deceive a perfectly decent man, and she had plenty of opportunity to be honest with Bertie.  Mary spilled the beans, and I think she was malicious about it, but Edith hesitated too long in considering whether it was in her best interests to keep fooling him about Marigold.

 

Good for you, Tom.  Your greatest wish in life has been fulfilled - you successfully got Mary married off to Henry.  I don't know why this became your greatest and only wish in life, but you were single minded in your focus, so, um congratulations, job well done and all that.

[yb125]

 

If it was Bertie's cousin that everyone knew was gay, I am puzzled at the line that no one thought Bertie would inherit since his cousin was young and everyone knew the girl he was going to marry and presumably have an heir with.

I found this odd too, even if he wasn't gay there was still no guaranteed they would have a boy, it seemed weird that no one would even mention that he was the heir even if his prospects were tentative at best. 

[statsgirl]

Bertie not going around and telling everyone he is the heir is supposed to demonstrate his modesty I assume.  I'm not surprised that he didn't expect to inherit, the cousin was only in his thirties and may have ended up outliving Bertie (the actor is 35). If anyone was going to inherit, it might have been Bertie's son, as Matthew was going to inherit Downton.

 

Edith was wrong to accept Bertie without telling him (aren't I seeing this on Arrow this month?) but I can understand her reluctance. For the first time in her life, she was looking at having it all -- a position, a man who loved her, and keeping Marigold with her.  She was afraid to lose it all if he rejected her knowing about Marigold, which she ended up doing after all.

 

I have always been a Mary apologist and while I don't agree with the way she told Bertie, I'm glad she did. Cora herself was saying to Rosamund that she wanted to tell him herself. The whole family agreed that Edith should tell him. And when Edith chickened out, someone had to do it.

The problem is that Mary didn't tell Bertie because she thought he deserved to know, she told him because she wanted Edith to lose him and be made unhappy.  She did it solely because she wanted to hurt Edith.

 

I suspect that if Bertie were truly only going to be the agent for the estate and Edith limited to low social standing, Mary might not have thought it worth her while to tell him about Marigold.

Edited February 22, 2016 by statsgirl

[sark1624]

I have always been a Mary apologist and while I don't agree with the way she told Bertie, I'm glad she did. Cora herself was saying to Rosamund that she wanted to tell him herself. The whole family agreed that Edith should tell him. And when Edith chickened out, someone had to do it.

I disagree. He was proposing to her. She was going to become the Marchioness of Hexham. In an age of propriety and scandal, this would have ruined him. Two adulterers dined at Mrs Patmore's B&B and it would have ruined her business, and Carson was even worried that people would find out she was connected to the Granthams and that it would bring scandal on them. The new Marchioness had a secret baby out of wedlock that she has been passing off for years as her ward? Would have blacklisted them.

Speaking of Bertie, wasn't Lord Hexham the one who was gay and would rather paint flowers or something like that? Or am I confusing him with Henry's family member that was the earl? If it was Bertie's cousin that everyone knew was gay, I am puzzled at the line that no one thought Bertie would inherit since his cousin was young and everyone knew the girl he was going to marry and presumably have an heir with.

 

 

So, Mary was doing her christian duty? Mary only do that because she was jelaous in she wanted to do any good she would have take Edith and Bertie and force a polite talk betwen them about Marigold. Mary wanted to humilliate Edith and Bertie: "i admire you, Bertie. Not everyone would accept Edith's past" in other words she was telling him that was a stupid, also she used Marigold a innocent child in all this. If Cora or Rosamound would have told Bertie i bet that they would use another way, maybe have a talk in a empty room and in a polite way explain to him who is Marigold with Edith present there.

 

 

[h2ogirl]

I don't think I've ever hated a television character as much as I hate Mary Crawley. What a complete bitch. I've enjoyed this show for many years but it's worn me out. She's so so very awful. I don't even care about the Christmas special now. I wanted their car to get in a fiery crash, somehow taking Carson with them. They're both completely insufferable.

Edited February 22, 2016 by h2ogirl

[ScoobieDoobs]

There's so much more chemistry between Bertie and Edith (to me) than between Henry and Mary - Their kisses seems so stilted and forced.  And married before anyone could take a second breath - too weird.  It's all so rushed as though Fellowes didn't know the show was coming to an end or something even as he very lovingly crafted the love story between Edith and Bertie.  Almost like two different shows.

 

You know, I think of that scene last ep, with Edith laying on top of Bertie on the couch -- it was so sweet.  They showed such warmth & affection & chemistry & depth in their obvious feelings for one another.  We just haven't seen any of this with Mary & Henry.  This is my prob with them.  I don't believe them as a couple.  Mary is a horrible, horrible, horrible snob.  Her views that she was spouting (about marrying at her "level") weren't some bullshit cover for her true feelings of her love for Henry (ick, oh please)..  This is how she really feels.  

 

Tom was dead wrong to get involved in Mary's love life.  I was screaming at my TV for him get his chubby butt the hell outta any of this.  It ain't his business.  And he's wrong.  He's comparing his relationship with Sybil to Mary's & Henry's -- and Mary is clearly way different than Sybil.  This marriage could be a horrible disaster.  In ten years, when he's not racing anymore & he's laying around on the red velvet couches in his underwear, fat & bald, me thinks Mary might regret her quick decision here.  But that'd be the best revenge for Edith.

 

Hopefully, Bertie will come to his senses.  Edith didn't trick him.  They didn't marry yet & she clearly didn't know how to tell him about Marigold.  I give Edith credit that she was honest with Bertie & said to him she didn't know if she would have married him & not told him the truth about Marigold.  Idk, it's possible Edith might have married Bertie & not told him the truth, but I think she would have eventually told him.  It would be nice if Bertie realizes he truly loves Edith & ultimately sees what a helpful & supportive & & devoted & loving wife she would absolutely be to him.  Would Mary be this way to any man?  Ew.  She sucks.

 

Wait, didn't Robert say Carson had a kind heart?  Er, huh?  He's an ass.  He's been so damn cruel to Barrow lately.  I didn't like that, but can't say I cared all that much since he's always been such a dick to everyone near him (who isn't a young hot guy).  But being cruel to Mrs. Patmore?  That's it, put up your dukes, Carson, you butthole!

 

Spratt/Buddy Hackett as Dear Abby gave me a giggle -- but I didn't believe it for one second.

[Dejana]

Bertie not going around and telling everyone he is the heir is supposed to demonstrate his modesty I assume.  I'm not surprised that he didn't expect to inherit, the cousin was only in his thirties and may have ended up outliving Bertie (the actor is 35). If anyone was going to inherit, it might have been Bertie's son, as Matthew was going to inherit Downton.

 

Edith was wrong to accept Bertie without telling him (aren't I seeing this on Arrow this month?) but I can understand her reluctance. For the first time in her life, she was looking at having it all -- a position, a man who loved her, and keeping Marigold with her.  She was afraid to lose it all if he rejected her knowing about Marigold, which she ended up doing after all.

 

The problem is that Mary didn't tell Bertie because she thought he deserved to know, she told him because she wanted Edith to lose him and be made unhappy.  She did it solely because she wanted to hurt Edith.

 

I suspect that if Bertie were truly only going to be the agent for the estate and Edith limited to low social standing, Mary might not have thought it worth her while to tell him about Marigold.

 

Yeah, let's not pretend Mary said what she did to Bertie out of the goodness of her heart. She was stewing about Henry's departure, and Edith having everything, for once. Plus, Edith was needling Mary; Tom tried to warn her off, when she started in on the gloating. Still, the "She started it!" argument doesn't make a great case for the moral high ground, nor is it a strong defense/justification for spiteful behavior. It's a TV show so they had to reconcile somewhat, but IRL I've seen siblings go to their graves without speaking over much (much) pettier disputes than anything Edith or Mary have ever done to each other.

[Crs97]

I knew they were going to rewrite history so that only Mary is to blame for their difficult relationship. They have both contributed to this toxic relationship, but somehow now Edith is just a poor victim. What a disappointment.

[jschoolgirl]

She's going to be Edith's daughter forever. Public scandal aside, let's just think about the implications of living in a house with a ward who's actually your child and a husband who's unaware of that. I think it would have been unbareable for Edith to raise wathever children she could have with Bertie as her own, and still treat Marigold as a ward. And if Marigold where to know the truth, gosh, horrible. Bertie needed to know not just for his sake, but for the child's as well.

I love Bertie and love Bertie-and-Edith, but Edith really dodged a bullet. You can see in that last, luminous shot that she will be just fine without him. The lighting was practically beatific.

I said on last week's thread that going to Brancaster with Bertie would mean that Edith would have to take Marigold away from her home yet again. Away from George and Sybbie, with whom she seems to have a fine and happy relationship. Edith would have to leave her magazine. Marigold would be different from any children of Bertie and Edith because even though Bertie could adopt her, she could not have a title. Edith still has to work through how and when to tell Marigold the truth, but Robert was likely prophetic when he said she "could be one of the interesting women of the day" without marrying Bertie.

Edith and Marigold would also have had to contend with Bertie's mother, apparently a pill. I think Our Lord Creator threw the difficult future mother-in-law cliche at us so that we wouldn't feel too badly over Edith's loss.

[Andorra]

This was the worst Downton episode ever. It destroyed the whole show for me. Mary was awful and - I think - out of character. Yes, she has been snide and bitchy towards Edith, but this was a whole different dimension and we have never before see her act that way.

 

I hated how everyone bullied Mary about Henry. I hated Henry and this horrible "no means yes" storyline. It was sexist and disgusting. 

 

I even hated Tom. The only good scene was, when he yelled at Mary. She deserved it, but his whole behavior before was awful.

 

And then even the Dowager became completely out of character! In Episode 4 she said about Henry "Mary needs more than a handsome face with a hand on a gearstick" and then all the sudden she has changed her mind and Henry is the one? Where did we ever see any of this?

 

The stupidest thing: All family members told us over and over how "strong" Henry is and that Mary "can't control" him and then she whistles and he comes and brings a marriage licence. AWFUL!!

 

Edith was an idiot, too. She should have told Bertie of course, but she's a coward as usual. 

 

So it all ends in misery. I can't see Mary being happy with Talbot, I clearly see a divorce. Tom has no life anyway, he's a character from the very first season and he gets nothing in the end. It is endlessly depressing. 

[Llywela]

Confused about Daisy as well. What exactly does passing her exams mean? That she is eligible to attend college? That it is the equivalent of a GED and she can get an office job?

I'm pretty sure Daisy has no intention of switching careers or attempting to get into higher education (which very few women did in the 1920s). Getting her Matric seems to be purely a matter of pride, self-improvement. She started this whole thing because she felt she'd missed out on her education as a child, going into service as young as she did, so she started studying by herself, hoping to improve herself. She could have gone on reading and studying indefinitely, but Molesley encouraged her to study toward Matric so that she would have a concrete measure of her achievement. Daisy has very low self-esteem, but that examination result is something she will always have as proof that she isn't stupid, that she did get that education she wanted, that she succeeded. Taking the exam means she has something to show for all her hard work.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Llywela

[sark1624]

I love Bertie and love Bertie-and-Edith, but Edith really dodged a bullet. You can see in that last, luminous shot that she will be just fine without him. The lighting was practically beatific.

I said on last week's thread that going to Brancaster with Bertie would mean that Edith would have to take Marigold away from her home yet again. Away from George and Sybbie, with whom she seems to have a fine and happy relationship. Edith would have to leave her magazine. Marigold would be different from any children of Bertie and Edith because even though Bertie could adopt her, she could not have a title. Edith still has to work through how and when to tell Marigold the truth, but Robert was likely prophetic when he said she "could be one of the interesting women of the day" without marrying Bertie.

 

 

Sadly if i could advice Edith i would tell her that she must take away her daughter from Mary, we all know that writting that letter was injusticable, but imo you should NEVER INVOLVE KIDS in your fights. Mary crossed the line there, if the sisters want a fight, cool, go to the yard and pact a duel in the morning, but involving Marigold was the cruelest thing about the whole business. 

[UsernameFatigue]

Well I do hope Bertie comes back for Edith. After all she had never accepted his proposal - she said she was still thinking about it as her life was complicated. He took it as a yes since she didn't say no and then without telling her decided to make the announcement the next morning at breakfast. So as far as I can see he is the one that screwed up. I like that Edith has a life in London with the magazine and maybe she will decide that is what she wants. But for once I would like her to decide the direction of her life, not a man.

 

I am glad that Thomas did not die as I feared he might. After all if Mary can continually be a bitch and try to screw up other's lives, and still get a happy ending, so can Thomas.

[jschoolgirl]

What were Edith's very last words to Mary as she was going out of Mary's bedroom door? I'd appreciate it if someone could fill me in on that.

Mary did not look very happy at the altar. At all.

[photo fox]

I think Edith's hesitance to tell Bertie went deeper than not wanting to lose a potential position as a wife and mistress of her own home, and even deeper than not wanting to lose him as a person. I think she couldn't bear the idea that this kind, gentle man she loves would not only reject her, but reject her because of the daughter she also loves.

All the awards to Laura Carmichael tonight. You could practically see an invisible line physically pulling her toward Bertie in their scenes. Between that, her scenes with Mary, and "bananas", she was spot on tonight, through such a huge range of emotion.

Speaking of emotion, it was nice seeing Michelle Dockery finally get to show some. I get so tired of the bored sarcastic quips. I know her story isn't popular, but at least she got to show some range. Her scene at Matthew's grave made me tear up for her, and I would have said up to that point that I hated her and wanted her to be miserable.

Molesley made my eyes sting, too, when he was taking to the kids about the importance of education. What a decent man. It's hard to believe he used to be such a pathetic figure.

And I officially didn't care about any of the other stories.

Eta: I want Carson to eat shit and die.

[Andorra]

Speaking of emotion, it was nice seeing Michelle Dockery finally get to show some. I get so tired of the bored sarcastic quips. I know her story isn't popular, but at least she got to show some range. Her scene at Matthew's grave made me tear up for her, and I would have said up to that point that I hated her and wanted her to be miserable.

 

 

As someone else pointed out: Mary had more chemistry with that tombstone than with Henry. 

 

As much as I hated Mary's storyline, I loved Michelle's acting in the episode. She finally got some scenes to get her teeth in. 

[Glade]

It is very off-putting that after so much of this show was dedicated to Mary's romantic life/marriage prospects (the endless suitors in season 1 and 4, Matthew and Caryle and Patrick and Gilligan...) in the end she just winds up marrying some random guy for no reason.  They have nothing in common, no chemistry or deep emotional bond.  It's practically an arranged marriage, given that it happened because her family randomly yelled in her face about marrying him, but it was also arranged in a very dubious and out of character way for her entire family. 

 

He is good-looking and she has money (thanks to her dead husband's dead ex-fiance's father), but she's also cold, nasty and superficial, he's glass-deep, and they have to live with her parents.  It could hardly be less satisfying or wooden if (as is JF's way) she met some unseen person and married him off-screen between episodes.  JF wrote this episode so poorly, so without irony and in such bad taste that it's almost unbelievable.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Glade

[albaniantv]

Fellowes did an amazing job on this episode, I think one of the best since Season 1. I loved:

 

-the poignant speech of Edith about sisters

-how the Duchess showed up to represent what family is all about

-how Matthew's boy loves Robt and that will lead to a better job for him

-how Isobel is facing her challengers with logic and certitude, meaning I guess, she will end up as the BFF of the Dowager!

[Roseanna]

This was the worst Downton episode ever. It destroyed the whole show for me. Mary was awful and - I think - out of character. Yes, she has been snide and bitchy towards Edith, but this was a whole different dimension and we have never before see her act that way.

 

It was entirely according to Mary's character what she did.  She has never looked at herself and realized that she doesn't really react to Edith, but at her own demons. 

 

For the first time Mary met the situation where Edith would have succeeded better than she and she couldn't simply bear it although Bertie's title was due to an accident. Her remark to Tom that if Henry were a Marquess all women would have tried to catch him showed how shallow her values are.

 

Also, Mary has always been a very controlled person, but she has a tendency to let loose of the control and these incidents have always led to a havoc (like Pamuk). 

 

However, I had really hoped that Mary would rise above her feelings and for it's possible, f.ex. the doctor's shallow wife could for a once show a grace in the end of Middlemarch. 

[SusanSunflower]

There was vast inconsistency of character --  the episode often felt like it had been written by a committee to arrive at a preordained destination  at breakneck speed come hell or high water.  Very much an unconvincing Rube Goldberg contraption, pay no attention to creaking of the machinery.  In fact, I was rather shocked at the lack of convincing transformation in Mary. I never ever ever saw the moment when she "fell in love" with Henry, the moment that spurred her trip to Matthew's grave, touching though it was.  Suddenly Henry had acquired a sun tan and a manly chin and was being photographed fetchingly -- it must be love!  Tom Branson deserves a trip to the South of France to recover from his labors while the happy couple honeymoon god-knows-where before returning to domestic bliss at Downton (who will now be Henry's valet?) 

It's a good point that Edith + Bertie is doomed to fail, due to the Downton Triangle and the implausibility that Edith + Bertie + Marigold  residing at Downton, and commuting to the London editorial offices/Gregson's flat and Bertie fullfilling his aristocratic role up north.  The final shot of Edith minding the blissfully playing three children suggested she wasn't going anywhere, ever if it meant breaking the spell of Downton perfection.  Too bad titles come with estates that have specific geography.  Poor Edith, how ironic Bertie's inheritance "ruined" everything! (kidding). 

There were many wait-a-minute moments of gaping plot holes or turn-on-a-dime changes of heart, but more DRAMA and EMOTION than we've seen possibly in the entire series up to now.  Tom losing his temper was such a vast relief.  The "adults" actually speaking in full consecutive sentences and having conversations (rather than "exchanging" one-liners). It was a vast improvement in writing, despite face-palms. As others have said, it felt like a quite different show altogether (in an oddly good way). 

Edited February 22, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Roseanna]

I think Edith's hesitance to tell Bertie went deeper than not wanting to lose a potential position as a wife and mistress of her own home, and even deeper than not wanting to lose him as a person. I think she couldn't bear the idea that this kind, gentle man she loves would not only reject her, but reject her because of the daughter she also loves.

 

Rather because Edith had so enjoyed to be an object of Bertie's admiration which was so rare to her, she was afraid that after learning she had done something that the society condemned he would cease to admire her and maybe even condemn her.

 

However, the reason was that Edith saw the situation as an impasse: as she said, if she told Bertie, she could ruin everything, meaning he would reject her, but if she married him without telling him, the secret would shadow their marriage and she couldn't be happy (as Cora warned). So either way, she could be unhappy. No wonder she couldn't either tell him nor say him properly yes (as he wrongly assumed she had done in the corridor).

 

Now, what she failed to see was that the secret was bound to come out anyway, and if somebody else than she told it Bertie, he wouldn't forgive her. So, the only real possibility, although a small one, to save their relationship was to tell herself. 

 

In addition, she asked the whole time herself how she could become happy. If she had thought before all about his happiness, she would have told him and explain that she couldn't marry him and thereby cause him to be a object of a scandal.  

[Roseanna]

Edith was an idiot, too. She should have told Bertie of course, but she's a coward as usual. 

 

Of course Edith should have told Bertie, but then there would be no drama.

 

Before all, Mary was in the same situation in S1 and she didn't tell Matthew (after that became Cora's pregnancy) and S2 she told him only after Robert was told by Cora why Mary didn't break with Carlisle and Matthew figured out there must be some reason and asked her and in that situation they weren't lovers.

[SusanSunflower]

I do rather wish that Mary had ended up with a newly-reappeared Carlisle ... he was a true Rhett Butler match for her. I don't see Mary+Henry working out for long.  He's still racing cars and she's still terror stricken at the prospect of being widowed, again, because Henry's early demise in another fiery wreck would, of course, be all about Mary's tragic loss. 

 

The Editor and her cigarette are distracting and given such prominence I fear her inevitable pairing up with Tom.  Perhaps she and Tom can free Edith from the burden of running the magazine, but wait!, that would leave Mary without her co-manager ... and Bertie's occupied elsewhere. I wonder how long he's to be gone in Tangiers.  I anticipate a change of heart in Bertie as he contemplates the emptiness of England without Edith on his return. Maybe Violet can have a chat with him. 

 

I'm not sure how they're going to fill the final "Chrismas Special" beyond Edith+Bertie and Baby Bates ... and we have an extra week of anticipation. 

[txhorns79]

I'll never understand why they brought in Henry (a race car driver of all people!) when it's been clear since matthew's death that Tom is Mary's best friend and confidant. They have chemistry and spend more time with each other than anyone else yet we're supposed to believe that Tom's been celibate since his own wife's death and isn't attracted to Mary? I mean they went so far as to have him on all the dates and talk to her afterwards about each one! He's been the only one to challenge her and get away with it! Dumb Fellowes!

 

I like their friendship, and am glad they didn't turn the relationship romantic.  Honestly, if I were Mary, I would not want to be married to Tom, if only because I would not want to put myself in a position where I was being regularly compared with my beloved, dead sister.   

[Roseanna]

I have always been a Mary apologist and while I don't agree with the way she told Bertie, I'm glad she did. Cora herself was saying to Rosamund that she wanted to tell him herself. The whole family agreed that Edith should tell him. And when Edith chickened out, someone had to do it.

 

If Mary had really acted out of pure disinterested concern towards Bertie, she would have simply said in private to Edith: "If you don't tell him, I will." Then Edith would have forced to tell. (Actually, it was evident that she tried to collect her courage in order to tell him in the evening in the corridor, but he took her "I love you" as yes and silenced her with a kiss.)

 

Also, it was quite evident that Mary couldn't know in the morning if Edith had told Bertie in the evening or not (she probably figured out from Rosamund and her parents' conversation she overheard that she hadn't done before). She figured it out that she didn't only because Edith didn't want Bertie make the announcement. 

 

Then Mary test the waters by "admiring" him for accepting "Edith's past" - which, if Bertie had known the truth, would have make sure that he would despise her for the rest of his life. As he didn't it, Mary deliberately humiliated and hurt Bertie and thereby made sure that he would break with Edith.

 

Of course Edith also pierced a needle on her sister by saying that Mary couldn't bear that Edith was better off than she - all the more hurtful because it was the literal truth. Mary is usually so proud, and now this quality would have saved her if she had stuck to it to save her face, but instead she showed to her whole family that their estimation of her character was just. 

 

In addition, we had been shown before that Mary was glad anticipating that due the Marques of Hexham's death Bertie would lose his job and Edith would lose her suitor, that Mary didn't took well the news that Bertie had become a Marques and as his wife Edith would outrank her and that she anticipated that as a Marques Bertie would abandon Edith.  

 

All that makes it impossible that Mary's motivation was nothing else than malice and a will to destroy Edith's chances for happiness and, even more, have a position above her own. She probably didn't actually plan it, but when the chance became, she took it. Or, as she didn't tell that she she knew about Marigold, it could be that she kept the information as a weapon in case she needed it.