S01.E01: From The Ashes Of Tragedy

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

Wow. That's so obvious but I didn't even think of the fact that it was likely the kids would have woken up and found her and Ron's bodies

That would have been awful for the kids to find. I assume the kids were eventually woken up by the noise from the police all over the home. Is that what happened? If so, that had to be terrifying as well, though not as awful as being the ones to find the body.

[LADreamr]

Kato was something of a burnout back then, admittedly, but this production really has him looking like he had only a few working brain cells, doesn't it? The moment I heard that line I knew for certain there was no way in real life it really was said. I mean it's the kind of lame joke someone might make the first time they met Simpson. It seems to me that anyone hanging around OJ more than a day would know better--that variations of that joke had been made in his presence for decades and was hardly going to amuse him.

Exactly, especially because the way Kato has talked, he was never very comfortable around OJ. And he could be goofy, but yeah, he was never as bad as they make him seem. He was likeable and seemed eager to please, and was definitely the comic relief in the courtroom, although he did take it seriously. I remember at one point, Marcia Clark had to treat him as a hostile witness on the stand, but I can't remember why. I think it had more to do with a legal approach than his behavior.

Also, when he heard the banging on the wall of his guest house, he was talking to a friend on the phone. He asked if she felt an earthquake, and she said no, so he went to investigate, and that had him rattled, because he was still trying to talk to OJ about it when he got back, and he was blowing him off. So they didn't wake up a groggy (or dopey, perhaps) Kato when they arrived.

If I can remember all of this off the top of my head (although admittedly I was obsessed), they can get it straight.

Just wanted to share one of my favorite Kato moments from the trial. Clark asked him a question, and he answered, "Uh huh," and she said she needed him to use Yes or No, because the court reporter didn't have a key for "Uh huh." And he went, "Oh... She should get one," and the courtroom laughed. I think that was the beginning of seeing what Kato was going to be like.

A couple of years after the trial, I was called to jury duty at the Criminal Courts Bldg in LA, and our case ended up being tried in the courtroom right next to OJ's. Sometimes it was hard to concentrate, thinking about what had happened on the other side of the wall.

Edited February 6, 2016 by LADreamr

[Kromm]

Exactly, especially because the way Kato has talked, he was never very comfortable around OJ.

Remind me (I've forgotten) why exactly was Kato in OJ's guest house again then? I mean this show (and a lot of stuff back then in fact) took the tact that he was just a freeloader/hanger-one-er, one of OJ's innumerable ass kissers. If he's to be believed and he was "uncomfortable" around OJ, how did he even get his foot into the door (of that guest house)?

[LADreamr]

Kato was Nicole's friend. When she lived on Gretna Green, she had a guest house with no one living in it, and he asked if he could. He paid rent and helped with the house and kids. But then she decided to move from GG to the Bundy condo, and he was just going to live in it with her, and that's when OJ stepped in and said he should live in his guest house instead. I believe the implication was that although they were nothing but friends, OJ wanted some distance between them, just in case.

Kato's testimony.

Edited February 6, 2016 by LADreamr

[RedheadZombie]

This is separate, but since it has been discussed here, someone tweeted Kato Kaelin asking if he really said, "Juice, do you want juice," and he replied, "Never ever."

I don't believe OJ would have had Kato hanging out and making himself at home in the big house. But the scene was worth it to see rage-monster Cuba scream, "cut that shit out, Kato".  

Exactly, especially because the way Kato has talked, he was never very comfortable around OJ. And he could be goofy, but yeah, he was never as bad as they make him seem. He was likeable and seemed eager to please, and was definitely the comic relief in the courtroom, although he did take it seriously. I remember at one point, Marcia Clark had to treat him as a hostile witness on the stand, but I can't remember why. I think it had more to do with a legal approach than his behavior.

Also, when he heard the banging on the wall of his guest house, he was talking to a friend on the phone. He asked if she felt an earthquake, and she said no, so he went to investigate, and that had him rattled, because he was still trying to talk to OJ about it when he got back, and he was blowing him off. So they didn't wake up a groggy (or dopey, perhaps) Kato when they arrived.

If I can remember all of this off the top of my head (although admittedly I was obsessed), they can get it straight.

Just wanted to share one of my favorite Kato moments from the trial. Clark asked him a question, and he answered, "Uh huh," and she said she needed him to use Yes or No, because the court reporter didn't have a key for "Uh huh." And he went, "Oh... She should get one," and the courtroom laughed. I think that was the beginning of seeing what Kato was going to be like.

A couple of years after the trial, I was called to jury duty at the Criminal Courts Bldg in LA, and our case ended up being tried in the courtroom right next to OJ's. Sometimes it was hard to concentrate, thinking about what had happened on the other side of the wall.

I don't know. I remember him sitting on that stand like he finally discovered his raison d'etre. He was in hog heaven, cracking jokes like his supposed good friend hadn't been butchered, and two children he knew hadn't lost their mother. It was like pulling teeth for the prosecution to question him. He just wouldn't budge, and I really felt (at the time) he was involved in protecting OJ after the fact. Compare his behavior to that of the limo driver, and you can really see how flippant Kato was.

[Tunia]

I remember him sitting on that stand like he finally discovered his raison d'etre.

 

I recall thinking at the time that this was Kato's big audition opportunity and he was playing it for all he could.  He had that surfer dude look, and it wasn't too improbable that he could get a few acting roles out of his exposure.  Some people just fall into a pile of poo and still come out smelling like roses, and didn't every sweet young waiter, cabbie, lot attendant, etc., think/feel that they were really an actor in between acting jobs?

[LADreamr]

He was supposed to be on Roseanne, because she was deep into the trial and brought it into the show frequently at that time, but for some reason I can't remember, it didn't happen.

[Umbelina]

That would have been awful for the kids to find. I assume the kids were eventually woken up by the noise from the police all over the home. Is that what happened? If so, that had to be terrifying as well, though not as awful as being the ones to find the body.

Since it's passed on the show, I believe the police got the kids out of there soon after they secured the scene and searched the house/yard for the murderer or more victims.  They took them to the police station.  AC picked them up there and drove them to Dana Point, where Nicole's family lived, later.  The phone call on the show was real, but pretty sure it was made from her Grandparent's house.

 

Exactly, especially because the way Kato has talked, he was never very comfortable around OJ. And he could be goofy, but yeah, he was never as bad as they make him seem. He was likeable and seemed eager to please, and was definitely the comic relief in the courtroom, although he did take it seriously. I remember at one point, Marcia Clark had to treat him as a hostile witness on the stand, but I can't remember why. I think it had more to do with a legal approach than his behavior.

Also, when he heard the banging on the wall of his guest house, he was talking to a friend on the phone. He asked if she felt an earthquake, and she said no, so he went to investigate, and that had him rattled, because he was still trying to talk to OJ about it when he got back, and he was blowing him off. So they didn't wake up a groggy (or dopey, perhaps) Kato when they arrived.

If I can remember all of this off the top of my head (although admittedly I was obsessed), they can get it straight.

Just wanted to share one of my favorite Kato moments from the trial. Clark asked him a question, and he answered, "Uh huh," and she said she needed him to use Yes or No, because the court reporter didn't have a key for "Uh huh." And he went, "Oh... She should get one," and the courtroom laughed. I think that was the beginning of seeing what Kato was going to be like.

A couple of years after the trial, I was called to jury duty at the Criminal Courts Bldg in LA, and our case ended up being tried in the courtroom right next to OJ's. Sometimes it was hard to concentrate, thinking about what had happened on the other side of the wall.

You get a very good sense of Kato in his deposition, linked above, and in the If the Glove Don't Fit thread.  You are correct about what you said, except Kato was asleep when the cops came, was scared all night, off and on sleep, so he was particularly groggy.  The first thing he thought and said was asking them if OJ's plane had crashed, then about the thumps/earthquake (which is what prompted Fuhrman to look around back there, and to find the glove.)  Of course when they found the blood drops, they should have sealed off the whole damn house.  I'll never understand why they didn't, EVER. 

 

Remind me (I've forgotten) why exactly was Kato in OJ's guest house again then? I mean this show (and a lot of stuff back then in fact) took the tact that he was just a freeloader/hanger-one-er, one of OJ's innumerable ass kissers. If he's to be believed and he was "uncomfortable" around OJ, how did he even get his foot into the door (of that guest house)?

 

 The next poster has it right, OJ didn't want Kato living with Nicole, as Nicole said to him (not a direct quote) "He takes all of my friends away.  He buys them, and he just bought you with the free rent offer."

Edited February 7, 2016 by Umbelina

[FuriousStyles]

I must have missed the kids phone call thing. Who did the kids call?

[biakbiak]

I must have missed the kids phone call thing. Who did the kids call?

Sydney called Nicole wondering where she was and the answering machine picked up as officers were wot king the crime scene. Whatever adult who was watching her at the time was fucked to have allowed it.

[Umbelina]

Sydney called Nicole wondering where she was and the answering machine picked up as officers were wot king the crime scene. Whatever adult who was watching her at the time was fucked to have allowed it.

Well, to be fair, I'm sure they were all in shock and deep grief.  Although, perhaps that is why the show changed it to a call from the police station?

[helenamonster]

It's possible she had been left alone for a second and took the opportunity to try and call her mother (based on the actress playing her, she looked old enough to know her own phone number). I doubt, knowing what they knew, anyone watching her thought it would be a good idea.

[biakbiak]

Sydney was 8 at the time. She probably did know her own number but leaving her alone with a phone and not explaining why she was at a police station or her grandparents house and her mother wasn't there is weird,even if it was a lie.

[Canada]

Is that actually how John Travolta's face looks now or is it a really bad make-up job to make him look like Shapiro???

[GHScorpiosRule]

Is that actually how John Travolta's face looks now or is it a really bad make-up job to make him look like Shapiro???

Aside from the eyebrows, which are "wigs" so they resemble Shapiro's, sadly that is what he looks like now. He and Vance were on Stephen Colbert's show last week and it pained me to see what has happened to him.

[starri]

Is that actually how John Travolta's face looks now or is it a really bad make-up job to make him look like Shapiro???

I'd say a little from Column A and a little from Column B.

[Ina123]

I think the shout-out to Kloe and Kourtney was for young viewers who had no idea that the Kardashians had anything to do with this event. Many people watching this might not even have known the magnitude of OJ's celebrity. They may not have caught Robert's last name.

 

I noticed when they first pan around the rooms they show the melting ice cream. The only thing I think that was different was (IIRC) the ice cream was on a banister on the porch. For those who don't know, the detectives were actually asked about the temperature and state of melting of the ice cream to help scientific witnesses give opinion about time of death.

 

There is no way they can cover every tiny detail, but for you young people out there, this period in the USA was just freaky. It was OJ 24/7.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Ina123

[reggiejax]

Can Rick Fox act though?

 

He won't ever have to worry about making space on his mantle for an Emmy or an Oscar, but on the whole he is competent. More so than the usual athlete turned actor. However, the fact that he is a good six inches taller than OJ, would require a lot of camera trickery as well, and they aren't exactly doing such a good job with Cuba Gooding Jr. In the scene in the backyard, where he is with the cops, Gooding is clearly shorter than most of the other people in the scene. And while I am no filmmaker, that scene should have been relatively easy for them to make Gooding look the proper height. I mean, they were in a yard, how hard would it have been to dig a few holes for the other actors to stand in?

[Kromm]

Gooding is clearly shorter than most of the other people in the scene. And while I am no filmmaker, that scene should have been relatively easy for them to make Gooding look the proper height. I mean, they were in a yard, how hard would it have been to dig a few holes for the other actors to stand in?

Hah. Actually I think it's easier than that. You have four players in that scene. Cuba, the cuffing Cop, the lawyer and the detective. The cop is irrelevant to the rest of the miniseries so you cast him with a very short actor. Then because the actors playing the detective and lawyer might be a little taller than ideal next to Cuba, you take the very short cop actor and Cuba and you basically make them act while perched ontop of a slightly raised plaform. Right off the edge of that platform you have the actors for the detective and lawyer, so Cuba looks a bit higher in comparison. You can't just shoot their torsos, because you have to see the cop cuff OJ, but you can shoot from knee level up.  Bingo. Instantly taller Cuba.   You can also mix that up a bit with shots from the back using a body double (but a bigger guy), where you don't show the face.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Kromm

[This2getsold]

Isn't it just Johnnie Cochran and Robert Kardashian who have died?  That's not "a lot of the participants."  Am I missing someone?  Does Nicole's father count?

 

Scotty who was the policeman behind the glass near Simpson and his attorney was killed while on duty. Dominic Dunne is deceased. 

[Eolivet]

Caught up with this last night. I was in high school when the murders happened, so a lot of it is "new to me." I never saw OJ Simpson play football, but we were big fans of "The Naked Gun" movies.

 

I remembered Johnnie Cochran, F. Lee Bailey and (vaguely) Robert Shaprio, but not Robert Kardashian, so it's interesting to see the story play out as an adult. I remember Marcia Clark and Chris Darden, and that especially Clark seemed incompetent (which was I'm sure a function of my age, limited understanding and some institutionalized sexism).

 

One thing that struck me was that the domestic violence issue was so brushed off -- I feel like (well, I hope) that we are a more enlightened society today and that a history of domestic violence wouldn't be shrugged off in that way. The fact that the police were like "Eh, we were called eight times, no big." Another thing was that since this was pre-TMZ, pre-celebrity culture 24/7, the public never would've had any idea about those calls.

 

Courtney B. Vance is such a talent -- he is embodying this role, and since Johnnie Cochran is one of the public figures I remember, that's saying something. Paulson is great, as well -- and (unpopular opinion?) I'm really enjoying Travolta, too. He has "Hollywood sleazy lawyer" down pat. Schwimmer is the only one not quite working for me, but I love the idea upthread that his casting is meant to evoke the '90s. I just keep seeing Ross, though -- except maybe in the lie detector scene. I hope he gets less Ross-like as the show progresses. I also don't quite see Cuba Gooding Jr. as OJ, but I'm willing to suspend my disbelief.

 

I'm not a true crime fan by any stretch -- I am here for the acting, and the '90s nostalgia (such as it was). Can't wait for more, though!

[BBDi]

Caught up with this last night. I was in high school when the murders happened, so a lot of it is "new to me." I never saw OJ Simpson play football, but we were big fans of "The Naked Gun" movies.

I remembered Johnnie Cochran, F. Lee Bailey and (vaguely) Robert Shaprio, but not Robert Kardashian, so it's interesting to see the story play out as an adult. I remember Marcia Clark and Chris Darden, and that especially Clark seemed incompetent (which was I'm sure a function of my age, limited understanding and some institutionalized sexism).

One thing that struck me was that the domestic violence issue was so brushed off -- I feel like (well, I hope) that we are a more enlightened society today and that a history of domestic violence wouldn't be shrugged off in that way. The fact that the police were like "Eh, we were called eight times, no big." Another thing was that since this was pre-TMZ, pre-celebrity culture 24/7, the public never would've had any idea about those calls.

Courtney B. Vance is such a talent -- he is embodying this role, and since Johnnie Cochran is one of the public figures I remember, that's saying something. Paulson is great, as well -- and (unpopular opinion?) I'm really enjoying Travolta, too. He has "Hollywood sleazy lawyer" down pat. Schwimmer is the only one not quite working for me, but I love the idea upthread that his casting is meant to evoke the '90s. I just keep seeing Ross, though -- except maybe in the lie detector scene. I hope he gets less Ross-like as the show progresses. I also don't quite see Cuba Gooding Jr. as OJ, but I'm willing to suspend my disbelief.

I'm not a true crime fan by any stretch -- I am here for the acting, and the '90s nostalgia (such as it was). Can't wait for more, though!

I know many mistakes were made by the prosecution and it seems like Marcia Clark was not the best choice as lead in the trial. With that said, I think sexism played into how she was perceived. I also think Judge (and I use the term loosely) Ito's rulings made the prosecution look less competent than they were.

But that's only based on my dimming recollections from the time. And honestly I'm not sure who would have been the right type of prosecutor for this case.

[Hanahope]

While I lived in LA at the time this was going on, I wasn't really paying close attention to it.  Watching the show brings back a lot of memories of the evidence, but I certainly can't recall if what is being shown was in fact the truth (ex, the blood on the bronco, blood drops around the OJ estate, etc.).  If it is, then its amazing to me how badly the police screwed things up by not documenting and processing everything 'by the book.'  I get that there were police/people who couldn't imagine OJ did this crime right at the beginning, but that's still no excuse for sloppy work.  Given that evidence, the glove (and yes, if the prosecution was better prepared for the attack and had the guts to stand up for Furman, there's no way the defense should have established doubt about its origins/placement), the lady driving the car, the limo driver, this is a very good and clear case that in just about any other instance would have produced a guilty verdict.  Most people I talked with back then, including a lot of attorneys, totally believed OJ did it, but completely understood why the jury came back 'not guilty.' 

 

Many were very happy that the civil case was successful.  Petrocelli's book, Triumph of Justice about the civil case is a very good read and explanation as to the differences in the two cases and mistakes made by the police and prosecution.

[Catherinewriter]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, and the first hour did not, but what about the dog? Don't dogs generally defend their people? And he had the option to go outside, as we saw at the beginning, so where was he during the murders? I don't remember from 21 years ago, but did this come up at all? Poor baby. I wonder what happened to him.

 

O J had to know the kids were in the house, no? Which makes me dislike him even more.

[reggiejax]

I remember Marcia Clark and Chris Darden, and that especially Clark seemed incompetent (which was I'm sure a function of my age, limited understanding and some institutionalized sexism).

 

I know many mistakes were made by the prosecution and it seems like Marcia Clark was not the best choice as lead in the trial. With that said, I think sexism played into how she was perceived.

 

 

 

Anyone who has read my posts regarding American Crime Story knows I have little good to say about Marcia Clark's skills as a prosecutor. If she seemed incompetent, it was because her performance during this trial was incompetent.

 

That said, there is no denying that the full weight of society's inherent sexism hit this woman like a ton of bricks during this trial.

 

When the focus is on her hairstyle rather than her performance, you know the bullshit is stacked up high.

Edited February 9, 2016 by reggiejax

[Aethera]

Finally managed to watch this on Sunday. I'm not sure how pulled-in I feel yet, but the episode flew by quickly.

 

Some excellent character work going on by Vance, Paulson, Travolta (yes, Travolta), and Magnusson but I'm not buying Cuba Gooding, Jr. or David Schwimmer yet. Schwimmer just seems like Ross to me, especially in those open-mouthed silent moments; shocked Robert is shocked Ross, and I'm not a giant Friends fan or anything. Cuba Gooding Jr has it tough, I think, as it's a hard role, but I'm interested to see where he goes with it.  Courtney B. Vance will probably be my favorite as we really get into things.

[laurakaye]

Gotta defend my boy David Schwimmer one more time here...

 

I think that Kardashian was first and foremost OJ's friend.  He was not his lawyer, wasn't even a practicing lawyer when all this went down, but his skill at talking OJ down from several ledges was significant enough that he was encouraged to join OJ's defense team.  As a friend, he might've initially felt that he couldn't say no to OJ and was assured in his own mind that OJ was certainly innocent.  Later, I think he was conflicted.  I too see David Schwimmer as Ross first and foremost, but I maintain that those "Ross-ish" characteristics - the halting speech, the expressions of disbelief - make for a good portrayal of Robert Kardashian.  Plus, even though we're only one episode in, I like the dichotomy between the two Roberts - Shapiro and Kardashian.  Watching Travolta chew up and spit out every scene, while Schwimmer is off to the side wondering what exactly is happening, seems like it might be a pretty accurate portrayal of what actually went on.

Edited February 9, 2016 by laurakaye

[Kromm]

I remembered Johnnie Cochran, F. Lee Bailey and (vaguely) Robert Shaprio, but not Robert Kardashian, 

Kardashian was basically "the guy with funny skunk-striped hair who sat next to OJ for most of the trial, and didn't really do anything else".  So his impact was mainly visual. While this show hasn't/won't show it, Fred Goldman also has said he believes that Kardashian also concealed evidence that (even in that heated tension filled environment) might have led to a conviction. He allegedly walked out of Nicole's house the day of the murder with a suitcase. Lets just say that the knife that was never found would have certainly fit inside that suitcase.

 

Oh, and something else that wasn't shown was the likely reason Shipiro added an unqualified attorney to the team. Not just to sit next to OJ and calm him down, but also so he couldn't be called to testify (because of attorney-client privilege).

Edited February 9, 2016 by Kromm

[laurakaye]

Kardashian was basically "the guy with funny skunk-striped hair who sat next to OJ for most of the trial, and didn't really do anything else".  So his impact was mainly visual. While this show hasn't/won't show it, Fred Goldman also has said he believes that Kardashian also concealed evidence that (even in that heated tension filled environment) might have led to a conviction. He allegedly walked out of Nicole's house the day of the murder with a suitcase. Lets just say that the knife that was never found would have certainly fit inside that suitcase.

 

Oh, and something else that wasn't shown was the likely reason Shipiro added an unqualified attorney to the team. Not just to sit next to OJ and calm him down, but also so he couldn't be called to testify (because of attorney-client privilege).

Never thought of that.  Mind blown...........

[Kromm]

Never thought of that.  Mind blown...........

It might actually be a bit much to say he couldn't be called to testify (so maybe I shouldn't have put it that way), but it would have taken extraordinary action by Judge Ito, and Ito was kind of a plodder. Shapiro would have been playing the percentages basically. And if Kardashian went as far as making himself a conspirator after-the-fact, it also made sense to have him sitting next to OJ keeping him calm.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Kromm

[preeya]

I don't believe OJ would have had Kato hanging out and making himself at home in the big house. But the scene was worth it to see rage-monster Cuba scream, "cut that shit out, Kato".  I don't know. I remember him sitting on that stand like he finally discovered his raison d'etre. He was in hog heaven, cracking jokes like his supposed good friend hadn't been butchered, and two children he knew hadn't lost their mother. It was like pulling teeth for the prosecution to question him. He just wouldn't budge, and I really felt (at the time) he was involved in protecting OJ after the fact. Compare his behavior to that of the limo driver, and you can really see how flippant Kato was.

I saw Kato on The Dan Patrick show just two days ago and he looks, sounds and acts the same as he did at the trial. I think his personality is basically "what you see is what you get."

 

If you're interested here is a link to his interview:  http://bit.ly/1Q7J87a

 

He gets into the OJ stuff after the five minute mark and tells some interesting stuff about what went on back then.

Edited February 9, 2016 by preeya

[Kel Varnsen]

Kardashian was basically "the guy with funny skunk-striped hair who sat next to OJ for most of the trial, and didn't really do anything else". So his impact was mainly visual. While this show hasn't/won't show it, Fred Goldman also has said he believes that Kardashian also concealed evidence that (even in that heated tension filled environment) might have led to a conviction. He allegedly walked out of Nicole's house the day of the murder with a suitcase. Lets just say that the knife that was never found would have certainly fit inside that suitcase.

Oh, and something else that wasn't shown was the likely reason Shipiro added an unqualified attorney to the team. Not just to sit next to OJ and calm him down, but also so he couldn't be called to testify (because of attorney-client privilege).

What is interesting about the knife is that OJ (or someone else) had the forethought to throw it away somewhere where it would never be found, but at the same time he throws the remaining glove behind his guest house and doesn't even wipe the blood up from the Bronco? Edited February 10, 2016 by Kel Varnsen

[Umbelina]

What is interesting about the knife is that OJ (or someone else) had the forethought to throw it away somewhere where it would never be found, but at the same time he throws the remaining glove behind his guest house and doesn't even wipe the blood up from the Bronco?

I don't think he deliberately "threw" either glove.  He lost the first one and apparently searched for it in the dark on Bundy.  I think he lost the second when he slammed into the wall or air conditioner.

[Ina123]

In the first episode Shapiro clearly tell RK to renew his license so he can be on the team and can't be called to testify.

[RazzleberryPie]

To me it sounded like him when he was being Nicholas Cage with Travolta's face in Face/Off.

Someone on Twitter thought Kim would have had Fresh Prince posters instead of ones of Joey Lawrence and Jonathan Taylor Thomas in her room, but y'know, tastes change.

Kim was what, 13? 14? at the time and was already on the wild side. She would not have had a Jonathan Taylor Thomas poster up. He was a dweeb who looked younger. Probably not Will Smith, either. fresh prince was kind of past its prime by then, and men in black, Independence Day, etc hadn't made Will Smith Cool again.

Somebody above mentioned Dwayne Johnson as OJ - makes far more sense than Cuba Gooding Jr. I like him, but he just looks, sounds nothing like OJ. He's not big enough, handsome enough, or menacing enough.

I'm also wondering WTH with Connie Britton as Faye resnick. Nicole Richie wasn't available?

[tulip73]

Not afraid to admit I was wrong on the facts.

Per this link, furman did admit to planting evidence in the past. http://www.nytimes.com/1995/08/25/opinion/the-fuhrman-tapes-and-the-lapd.html. "Mr. Fuhrman is heard boasting of routine gatherings of police officers to celebrate beating up citizens, and speaking of planting and fabricating evidence as though numerous colleagues had been involved."

However, Ito did not allow those statements in to argue that furman planted in the past and thus planted here - he only allowed the uses of the n word to undermine furmans credibility. So the jury did not hear those statements about prior planted evidence. I thought they did but it's been 20 years.

Nevertheless Furman was asked at trial if he planted evidence and he pled the fifth, which was pretty damning. I stand by my point that the defense did a very good job of portraying furman as a rogue cop whose evidence finds could not be trusted.

When Furman was put on the stand he was asked if he ever used the N word. He said "No" he never personally used it to describe an African American which he didn't, but used it in a script he was writing, and read out loud to a journalist, which happened to be on tape. When he took the stand, and said he never used that word in reference to an actual person (which he didn't), he used it in a script he was presenting to someone. It was held it against him. Thus putting him in contempt. He was awaiting trial for the contempt/perjury charges when they brought him back to the stand for OJ. They asked him a question about the contempt charges (which he had to plead the 5th to - for an ongoing case). Once on the stand, if you plead the 5th for the first question, you have to plead the 5th for every questioned asked after that. That's why when they asked him if he planted evidence, he plead the 5th, they wanted him to make himself look guilty. Read his book on the case or even OJ's "If I did it". You won't question his guilt.

[starri]

Oprah interviewing Fuhrman in 2010.  She actually seems pretty impressed by him.

[MargotWendice]

When Furman was put on the stand he was asked if he ever used the N word. He said "No" he never personally used it to describe an African American which he didn't, but used it in a script he was writing, and read out loud to a journalist, which happened to be on tape. When he took the stand, and said he never used that word in reference to an actual person (which he didn't), he used it in a script he was presenting to someone. It was held it against him. Thus putting him in contempt. He was awaiting trial for the contempt/perjury charges when they brought him back to the stand for OJ. They asked him a question about the contempt charges (which he had to plead the 5th to - for an ongoing case). Once on the stand, if you plead the 5th for the first question, you have to plead the 5th for every questioned asked after that. That's why when they asked him if he planted evidence, he plead the 5th, they wanted him to make himself look guilty. Read his book on the case or even OJ's "If I did it". You won't question his guilt.

Didn't the defense bring an African American gang member in who claimed Furman said something like "We got you now, n%&&@r" when Furman arrested him? I am not sure what to think about this aspect of the case.

Regardless, the thing I am not clear on is why Furman would have wanted to frame OJ from the beginning. The guy had a good relationship with the police and seemed to be liked by them. He was a well-known and well-liked public figure in general. If the police really wanted to get him for some reason they could have given him a hard time during the domestic violence calls. It just doesn't make sense.

Edited February 15, 2016 by MargotWendice

[7isBlue]

Oprah interviewing Fuhrman in 2010. She actually seems pretty impressed by him.

Starri - Thank you for the link - it's so interesting! He covers a lot of ground, from evidence that was never processed, to mistakes made regarding the murder weapon, to major mistakes and outright bungling and dishonesty by the prosecution team and lead detective. Marcia Clarke is very lawyerly In her response to his remarks, which makes me believe him.

I was so engrossed by this trial back then. I find myself going down the rabbit hole again. I read a few books on the case (Bugliosi, Dunne, Petrocelli), but never Fuhrman's. Guess I know what I'll be doing this week.

Edited February 15, 2016 by 7isBlue

[Sarahsmile416]

Starri - Thank you for the link - it's so interesting! He covers a lot of ground, from evidence that was never processed, to mistakes made regarding the murder weapon, to major mistakes and outright bungling and dishonesty by the prosecution team and lead detective. Marcia Clarke is very lawyerly In her response to his remarks, which makes me believe him.

I was so engrossed by this trial back then. I find myself going down the rabbit hole again. I read a few books on the case (Bugliosi, Dunne, Petrocelli), but never Fuhrman's. Guess I know what I'll be doing this week.

I watched this and wondered what happened to the piece of gum he referred to. Did he actually collect it as evidence? If so, is it still around or would it be incredibly degraded at this point?

I have to say the bloody thumbprint and the gum was what stuck with me the most from that conversation. Why the heck would they have ignored that evidence? It makes no sense.

The only time Fuhrman pissed me off in that interview was when he said that he made no mistakes. I mean, come on...

I also have to agree with Marcia Clark that as bumbling as he made Vannatter sound, he alone did not cause that case to be lost.

[7isBlue]

I watched this and wondered what happened to the piece of gum he referred to. Did he actually collect it as evidence? If so, is it still around or would it be incredibly degraded at this point?

I have to say the bloody thumbprint and the gum was what stuck with me the most from that conversation. Why the heck would they have ignored that evidence? It makes no sense.

The only time Fuhrman pissed me off in that interview was when he said that he made no mistakes. I mean, come on...

I also have to agree with Marcia Clark that as bumbling as he made Vannatter sound, he alone did not cause that case to be lost.

The gum and the bloody fingerprint were never processed. The lock with the fingerprint was tossed out by the locksmith when he changed it out. It sounded to me like the gum was never picked out and put into evidence. Unbelievable!

When he said that he didn't make any mistakes, everyone in the audience groaned. When Oprah challenged him, he clarified that his fieldwork and investigation were above reproach and I agree.

[Sarahsmile416]

The gum and the bloody fingerprint were never processed. The lock with the fingerprint was tossed out by the locksmith when he changed it out. It sounded to me like the gum was never picked out and put into evidence. Unbelievable!

When he said that he didn't make any mistakes, everyone in the audience groaned. When Oprah challenged him, he clarified that his fieldwork and investigation were above reproach and I agree.

Well, I agree that Fuhrman impressed me more in this interview than he has previously and it seems that his field work and investigation were well-done, but it is hard to judge just from his word alone. Although I assume Roberts would back him up.

I would have to assume the gum was never put into evidence or else one would presume they would have at least used it during the civil trial.

[Milburn Stone]

Kato was Nicole's friend. When she lived on Gretna Green, she had a guest house with no one living in it, and he asked if he could. He paid rent and helped with the house and kids. But then she decided to move from GG to the Bundy condo, and he was just going to live in it with her, and that's when OJ stepped in and said he should live in his guest house instead. I believe the implication was that although they were nothing but friends, OJ wanted some distance between them, just in case.

 

This is definitely the implication, but there's also the feeling from this (at least for me) that OJ was not a bad guy! A bad guy would have said, "No way is he living with you! If he does, there'll be hell to pay." Instead, he was more like, "Look, I get it, he's been a help to you, and anything that's a help to you is fine by me. But I don't like him living with you, so how about if he lives in my guest house instead? Win win."

 

Admittedly, I find that hard to reconcile with the evidence of the double murder. But his willingness to offer a compromise solution on Kato indicates another dimension to this character.

[BBDi]

This is definitely the implication, but there's also the feeling from this (at least for me) that OJ was not a bad guy! A bad guy would have said, "No way is he living with you! If he does, there'll be hell to pay." Instead, he was more like, "Look, I get it, he's been a help to you, and anything that's a help to you is fine by me. But I don't like him living with you, so how about if he lives in my guest house instead? Win win."

Admittedly, I find that hard to reconcile with the evidence of the double murder. But his willingness to offer a compromise solution on Kato indicates another dimension to this character.

I don't think that it was that benign, at least Nicole apparently did not perceive it that way. There's a quote from Nicole on one of these threads to the effect that Kato was part of a pattern of Simpson taking her friends away from her, or getting them on his side, or something. After Kato moved into Simpson's guest house, Nicole would not see him or speak to him.

OJ offered him a guest house rent free, and didn't seem to expect anything in return from Kato, vs Nicole collecting a small rent from him, and him helping her with things. Kind of an offer he couldn't or wouldn't refuse.

Also keep in mind that Kato was Nicole's friend and that he and OJ did not have a friendship independent of Nicole.

I'm guessing that if Nicole had stayed friends with Kato, OJ might have thought he could pump Kato for information about her.

When you put all that together it looks more like controlling spouse behavior rather than a favor.

ETA But I also think that looking like a nice, generous guy was important to OJ.

Edited February 18, 2016 by BBDi

[MargotWendice]

This is definitely the implication, but there's also the feeling from this (at least for me) that OJ was not a bad guy! A bad guy would have said, "No way is he living with you! If he does, there'll be hell to pay." Instead, he was more like, "Look, I get it, he's been a help to you, and anything that's a help to you is fine by me. But I don't like him living with you, so how about if he lives in my guest house instead? Win win."

 

Admittedly, I find that hard to reconcile with the evidence of the double murder. But his willingness to offer a compromise solution on Kato indicates another dimension to this character.

OJ and Nicole were divorced so why does there need to be any kind of compromise? Nicole was free to do whatever (and whoever, for that matter) she wanted. This is clearly controlling behavior by OJ. 

[LADreamr]

Yes, he had a longer track record of being controlling of her than is being shown here. Between that and the abuse, it's amazing she was managing to attempt a life of her own, at all. He hardly gave her room to breathe.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Oprah interviewing Fuhrman in 2010.  She actually seems pretty impressed by him.

 

Taking response to the Case Discussion Thread.

[Milburn Stone]

OJ and Nicole were divorced so why does there need to be any kind of compromise? Nicole was free to do whatever (and whoever, for that matter) she wanted. This is clearly controlling behavior by OJ. 

 

Definitely (even under my theory that he was offering a "workable compromise") there was the threat of violence if she didn't agree, so I see how it was controlling. Also, knowing that Kato didn't continue to work for Nicole once he was in the guest house changes my mind as to whether that was a compromise of any sort.

[Petunia13]

Monica from Girlfriends as Mrs Dale Cochran!!!

I always enjoy seeing actors from shows I liked in new roles. She looks and talks the same.

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

Also keep in mind that Kato was Nicole's friend and that he and OJ did not have a friendship independent of Nicole.

IIRC, their trip to McDonald's the night of the murders was literally the first time OJ had asked Kato to do anything with him.