S31.E12: Tiny Little Shanks To The Heart

[fishcakes]

The doctor asking for some shade for Joe, followed by Probst holding the umbrella over his own head is one of my top five favorite Survivor moments ever. All he needed was to be sipping on some ice water and saying, "whew, hot out here today."

 

I've never particularly liked Wentworth, but she's not a mean girl. I think she thinks she's significantly more adorable than she actually is, and I find all her camera mugging and jury mugging obnoxious, but she seems like a good person. The cheering when Joe lost was poor sportsmanship -- because it was obvious that she was cheering against Joe rather than for Keith -- but we've seen a lot worse on this show before, and I'm sure she was concerned when she realized that Joe had collapsed, regardless of how fast she got up off the bench and went to him. Some people simply don't react quickly in emergency situations.

 

Abi, on the other hand, continues to be a garbage person.

 

Before last night, I would have said I didn't find Joe attractive, but when Jeff said his dad was there, I was thinking, oh, this could be interesting, let's get a look at dad. So obviously, there's something about Joe's looks that I like but I don't acknowledge it because he's so much younger than I am. Then his dad came out and he was an Old Ponytail Dude and I immediately lost interest. But the kissing was interesting, in that I think it's sweet when father and sons or brothers can kiss each other unself-consciously. That said, by the third time they kissed on the lips, even I was like, aaaaagh, stop it, you're being weird now.

[Jobiska]

I thought it was funny that once Spencer took the big step of saying "I love you" to his girlfriend, he couldn't stop saying it!  I bet if that were the answer instead of "Nourishment," he'd have won the challenge.  

[cherrypj]

Does anyone else sing, "Tiny little shanks to the heeeeaaaarrrttt"?

Just me? That's cool.

[Jobiska]

Does anyone else sing, "Tiny little shanks to the heeeeaaaarrrttt"?

 

Well, I wasn't so far, but now look what you did.

[truthaboutluv]

The doctor asking for some shade for Joe, followed by Probst holding the umbrella over his own head is one of my top five favorite Survivor moments ever. All he needed was to be sipping on some ice water and saying, "whew, hot out here today."

 

 

This. Seriously, I cracked up at that scene - "yes, let's get an umbrella for Joe" and then he proceeds to hold the umbrella over his head the whole time. You gotta love Probst. 

 

My other hilarious moment from the episode was after Tasha spills the beans about the possible women's alliance to Spencer and Jeremy. Tasha gives them a WTF look and goes, "wait, you're not actually worried that's going to be a thing right?" Spencer and Jeremy both give these long drawn out no's but immediately Spencer looks off in one distance worried and Jeremy's staring off in the other distance also worried and Tasha's side-eying the both of them with a "seriously...WTH" expression on her face as the camera pans away to the three of them sitting there. Seriously, it is like the funniest shot.

 

I thought it was funny that once Spencer took the big step of saying "I love you" to his girlfriend, he couldn't stop saying it!  I bet if that were the answer instead of "Nourishment," he'd have won the challenge.

 

 

The dam was broken. I have to say, I think that's one of the reasons I like Spencer so much. He sort of reminds me of myself. I have always struggled and hell still do, to express my feelings and emotions and I don't think I've ever told anyone "I love you..." I figure it's just kind of understood.

Edited December 4, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[Ms Blue Jay]

Shanks to the heart, and you're to blame!  Darling, Joe, you could have played a better game.

[needschocolate]

Perhaps the abundance of balancing challenges is because they were trying to make things "more fair."  Obviously, Joe is great at the balancing challenges, but I think he would be near the top at most any physical challenge and he has done well at puzzles too (he apparently sucks at remembering details).  Balancing is supposed to favor women due to their, generally, lower center of gravity (not sure how that will help you hold a statue over your head). Seems to me that Keith and Spencer both did well on balancing challenges in their original seasons.  Even though the powers that be must have known that Joe would be good at balancing, they could have also thought that balancing challenges would be the most likely ones that someone else could beat Joe on.  

 

What outside information would jurors' loved ones be able to bring them that would contaminate the jury?

 

Anything players chose not to bring into the game with them - news about a pregnant wife, for example. :) Or any arrests, convictions, family scandals, etc. which didn't break the news until after the players went into sequester for the game.

 

I am confused as to how knowing that your cousin is now in prison for murder is going to make you a better or worse jury member.  Besides, at least 5 of the people who are still playing and got to see their family member will eventually be on the jury - how is letting the already-on-the-jury people see their family members any different?  

 

If the show had already started airing and the family members had seen some episodes, I can see how that would be very wrong.  Of course, the same thing could happen to the ones who are still playing.  

 

In any case, I am glad to find out that the current jury members don't get to see their loved ones even though they will be gone for the full 39 days, only because I like the idea of Savage not getting to see his supermodel wife (this probably makes me a bad person - however, I would have felt bad for Jeremy not getting to see Val if he had gone to the jury before the family visits).

 

Russell's case was a lot more serious, IMO. It happened during a team challenge. Russell was very short of breath and even confused, while no one else even seemed winded. He lost consciousness and slumped onto the table. They then stood him up and he passed out again. Then after laying down for a bit and monitoring his vital signs, he sat up and just about lost consciousness again. I remember watching in horror and thinking Russell was having a cardiac event.

And I certainly didn't think Jeff was anymore worked up about Joe than any other medical emergency. In fact, I think Russell scared the crap out of him.

ETA: Just watched the Russell event on YouTube. I think the medics were very alarmed, and the other survivors reacted like they thought Russell was in serious danger. It kind of made me tear up.

 

Russel's medivac lead to my favorite reunion moment - Russel told the story of watching his emergency on TV.  His wife was watching with him and he hadn't told her that he had gotten so ill.  As she is watching this unfold, she turns to him and say (paraphrasing), "I hope you don' t die!"

 

(if anyone remembers the exactly details, please feel free to correct me).

[Calamity Jane]

That was very scary. Joe's episode did look less serious than Russel's, but I think they probably should have pulled Joe out of the game. He did NOT look good at TC. At any rate, these situations are scary!

Something about how Joe's face looked made me think of when I have had heat exhaustion - all red but white around the lips and eyes.  I thought there was more going on than just low blood sugar partly because he still looked so rocky in the evening.  Getting booted was the best thing, in my opinion. 

[kikaha]

I thought that was bad gameplay by Kimmi. She... got rid of someone who would have been on her side come the merge. 

 

She gained two people who were very much on her side come merge.  One of them was probably the #1 power player of the season.  She set her position in stone, in Bayon, the majority alliance.  And as many of us have pointed out, she got rid of someone she didn't like and did not want to work with. 

 

Win/win/win.  

[JenMcSnark]

Apparently Joe had been sick prior to the challenge (did someone upthread speculate that he looked sick during the family reward?  If so, good catch!):

 

 

He also reveals a whole lot that we didn’t see. Like what? Like the fact that he went into the challenge massively dehydrated due to a fever that had left him sick and shivering. And that just moments before Joe’s collapse he had actually requested either going to one hand or adding another section to the pole to hasten the outcome of the challenge because he could feel his body failing.

 

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/12/03/survivor-talk-joe-anglim-cambodia-second-chance

 

Personally, I'm a huge sports fan and I hate that type of fandom that actively roots for the other team to mess up instead of rooting for your team to do well and win.  That's what bothered me about the handholding stuff at the challenge.  YMMV

 

I have pretty much liked Kellie but she does have a mean girl side to her that occasionally comes out.  But she is nowhere close to hateful Abi.  You will never convince me that Abi wasn't positively gleeful at Joe being hurt.  She kept her smirk even after they were all gathered around him.  Kellie did not and was genuinely concerned IMO. 

[CletusMusashi]

Poor Keith. Was he even given the immunity necklace after he won? Or did he have to go over and pick it up off the muddy ground himself, while Jeff was busy crying and pulling hair implants out and trying to massage life back into Joe's buttocks?

[NutMeg]

Perhaps the abundance of balancing challenges is because they were trying to make things "more fair."  Obviously, Joe is great at the balancing challenges, but I think he would be near the top at most any physical challenge and he has done well at puzzles too (he apparently sucks at remembering details).  Balancing is supposed to favor women due to their, generally, lower center of gravity (not sure how that will help you hold a statue over your head). Seems to me that Keith and Spencer both did well on balancing challenges in their original seasons.  Even though the powers that be must have known that Joe would be good at balancing, they could have also thought that balancing challenges would be the most likely ones that someone else could beat Joe on.  

I tend to agree with your line of reasoning. In addition to Keith and Spencer, Woo, Vytas, Pee Gee are the first who come to mind that if I remember correctly could have been good in these balance/balancing challenges. Even Abi came close once! So in a way it's just the luck of the draw, so to speak, that makes it seem to some that challenges were designed to help Joe. If the random drawings of tribes had turned out differently, we would hear plenty of "it's so obvious that TBTB wanted to help Woo/Vytas/Spencer/insert other player's name. I still think challenges are designed before the season starts and probably before it's cast. That being said, I do wish there was more diversity - instead of a season of mostly puzzles, a season of mostly tosses, a season of mostly balancing, I'd like to mix these a bit more between seasons rather than within a single season.

[himela]

I am wondering whether Jeremy actually told Spencer about his idol. If he didn't, I don't see why Spencer would prefer to vote out Joe and risk an all girls alliance. Is he that sure Tasha will never agree to it or is he so sure he will be able to win immunity challenges all the way to the end?

 

At this point of  the game I don't see Jeremy as that great of a player as he is portrayed. I mean, I do like him as a human being and the way he treats his wife and family, but other than finding two idols and being on the winning tribe from the start he has not done anything else that is so extraordinary. He has not won an individual immunity or reward challenge yet. He has no other relationship than with Spencer and Tasha. His social game with the rest there is zero. A good player needs to adjust their alliances and/or voting blocs and try to create relationships even with people who seem on the bottom at the time. Jeremy seems to disregard Keith, Abi and Wentworth, even Kimmi fell so much in the outs that she had to create new plans for herself! This is a mistake from Jeremy's part, in my opinion.

[NutMeg]

I am wondering whether Jeremy actually told Spencer about his idol. If he didn't, I don't see why Spencer would prefer to vote out Joe and risk an all girls alliance. Is he that sure Tasha will never agree to it or is he so sure he will be able to win immunity challenges all the way to the end?

 

At this point of  the game I don't see Jeremy as that great of a player as he is portrayed. I mean, I do like him as a human being and the way he treats his wife and family, but other than finding two idols and being on the winning tribe from the start he has not done anything else that is so extraordinary. He has not won an individual immunity or reward challenge yet. He has no other relationship than with Spencer and Tasha. His social game with the rest there is zero. A good player needs to adjust their alliances and/or voting blocs and try to create relationships even with people who seem on the bottom at the time. Jeremy seems to disregard Keith, Abi and Wentworth, even Kimmi fell so much in the outs that she had to create new plans for herself! This is a mistake from Jeremy's part, in my opinion.

Indeed, after being all benign godfather for a (pretty long) while, it looks as if Jeremy has slowly drifted to the sidelines without course correcting. Now maybe that is a strategy, becoming less visible, which he can momentarily afford because he has an idol.

 

The other point you raise is also quite interesting: did he or did he not tell Spencer about the idol? At first glance, I'd say he didn't (not his motto, paranoia that Spencer could use the info against him), but then thinking about it further I can see how that could have reassured Spencer enough. So I don't know and hopefully we'll get an answer at some stage :-)

 

It's so much fun to speculate on all the strategy we don't see!

[JonThor24]

New poster here!

Too bad for Joe but I think Spencer and Jeremy are locks for f3. Their edits make it clear. This all girls alliance will fall. Kelley is just one of those mean girls. You know she was entitled in high school and such. She's very fake; studying psychoanalysis, it's pretty easy to see through her. I don't think she's much of a threat.

Also, I'm surprised no one here sees the leaked boot list that pops up online every season! They're usually fairly accurate.. I looked a few months ago but completely forget, so no spoilers from me. Ohp, edit: didn't realize there was a spoiler thread. Cool, keep that separate.

Edited December 4, 2015 by JonThor24

[himela]

Indeed, after being all benign godfather for a (pretty long) while, it looks as if Jeremy has slowly drifted to the sidelines without course correcting. Now maybe that is a strategy, becoming less visible, which he can momentarily afford because he has an idol.

I can't accept it as strategy completely because then why isn't what Kimmi is doing (nothing...) strategy as well? What will Jeremy say in the FTC? "I was trying to have shields around me and I found two idols so vote for me"? It sounds like an excuse to me, to use doing nothing and flying under the radar as strategy. How will he transform his doing nothing to great strategy? I don't see it happening. Maybe Spencer sees that that's why he is OK with being with Jeremy in the FTC. Spencer has done way more  in the game - he was at the bottom for many weeks, he managed to change his fate by creating social relationships and bonding with people, he won at least one immunity challenge, he managed to put himself in different positions every week so he eliminates the threats. Jeremy is stuck with just one alliance, so is Tasha. That's why I feel Spencer will win against these two. Cause he managed to adjust and better his position every week.

 

The other point you raise is also quite interesting: did he or did he not tell Spencer about the idol? At first glance, I'd say he didn't (not his motto, paranoia that Spencer could use the info against him), but then thinking about it further I can see how that could have reassured Spencer enough. So I don't know and hopefully we'll get an answer at some stage :-)

It's so much fun to speculate on all the strategy we don't see!

If he DID tell him, I am pretty sure we would have seen it, but then you never know. Maybe it's a suspense thing to keep a secret cause next week's episode is relevant with the idol so they want to throw it like a bomb.

[Oscirus]

Tasha is so great at strategizing that she got blindsided at four tcs in a row. Tasha's definitely more competitive. How many challenges has she won again?

 

You mean like Rob Mariano?

 

Rob is worst, he needlessly treats people like shit on camera then plays the victim when they don't want to deal with him at the finales.

 

I ALSO think it was absolutely inspired by Monica, which is what's funny to me.  She now sees how keeping the women's numbers up makes sense, and the benefits of that dark forbidden idea, the women's alliance

 

I disagree. I'd say that Kimmi's move was a desperation move.  Seeing that she was on the bottom, she floated an idea to somebody on the top pertaining to something they had in common and it worked.  I doubt that Monica's idea had anything to do with it.

 

And of course, we're talking in hindsight here, but even back during the game real-time it shouldn't be too hard to see that Spencer poses a bigger threat than Monica. Monica was never going to be a huge immunity threat, and she would have been loyal to Bayon, or maybe later on, the women, and most probably, to Kimmi. Now, because of some petty little reason (IMO), the one person they could have done away back then is running the game in a significant way.

 

 

Even if they went along with the plan and didn't blindside Monica, Kelly not  Spencer was the planned boot. So he likely would've still been there.

 

My other hilarious moment from the episode was after Tasha spills the beans about the possible women's alliance to Spencer and Jeremy. Tasha gives them a WTF look and goes, "wait, you're not actually worried that's going to be a thing right?" Spencer and Jeremy both give these long drawn out no's but immediately Spencer looks off in one distance worried and Jeremy's staring off in the other distance also worried and Tasha's side-eying the both of them with a "seriously...WTH" expression on her face as the camera pans away to the three of them sitting there. Seriously, it is like the funniest shot.

 

 

Mines was Tasha convincing them to boot Joe. Something to the effect of:

Tasha: Joe needs to go he can't be beat in immunities.

Jeremy: Yes he can.

Tasha: How many times have you beat him?

and that seemed to be the end of that.

 

 

thought it was funny that once Spencer took the big step of saying "I love you" to his girlfriend, he couldn't stop saying it!

 

 

He's a regular chandler (hopefully someone gets the reference).

 

Apparently Joe had been sick prior to the challenge (did someone upthread speculate that he looked sick during the family reward?  If so, good catch!):

 

 

 Stephen and Spence had the bug too. So Stephen is now resorting to biological warfare to take out his enemies :O That should  be a dq.

 

I am wondering whether Jeremy actually told Spencer about his idol. If he didn't, I don't see why Spencer would prefer to vote out Joe and risk an all girls alliance.

 

Because he had no choice in the matter. For the time being, Tasha's the captain of the alliance. To try and force the issue would be to force her to the girls's alliance and effectively end his game.

.

His social game with the rest there is zero. A good player needs to adjust their alliances and/or voting blocs and try to create relationships even with people who seem on the bottom at the time. Jeremy seems to disregard Keith, Abi and Wentworth, even Kimmi fell so much in the outs that she had to create new plans for herself! This is a mistake from Jeremy's part, in my opinion.

 

According to Ciera, she had a pretty good working relationship with him. According to Stephen, he also had a pretty good working relationship with Abi and Kelley. These relationships aren't being shown because they don't fit the overall narrative of whatever the endgame may or may not be.

 

How will he transform his doing nothing to great strategy?

 

How will he transform not being at the bottom and not being targeted despite being outted as one of the heads of the so called power alliance into great strategy?  We're in the f7, the boot after Jeremy just got blindsided and he still has no votes.  Mind you, most of the damage that he's done in the game hasn't even been done by the broliance.  I guess he can win more challenges but I doubt the jurors hold that against him.

[Sarahsmile416]

Apparently Joe had been sick prior to the challenge (did someone upthread speculate that he looked sick during the family reward? If so, good catch!):

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/12/03/survivor-talk-joe-anglim-cambodia-second-chance

Personally, I'm a huge sports fan and I hate that type of fandom that actively roots for the other team to mess up instead of rooting for your team to do well and win. That's what bothered me about the handholding stuff at the challenge. YMMV

I have pretty much liked Kellie but she does have a mean girl side to her that occasionally comes out. But she is nowhere close to hateful Abi. You will never convince me that Abi wasn't positively gleeful at Joe being hurt. She kept her smirk even after they were all gathered around him. Kellie did not and was genuinely concerned IMO.

I am even more impressed now by how Joe did in that IC knowing that. I can't imagine doing anything like that feeling sick, let alone stand there for an hour and 20 minutes feeling sick.

[Guest]

What's weird is that when Ciera and Kelley Wentworth celebrated the idol play in such a nasty way at the TC when Savage was voted out out, it was considered hilarious. When Ciera rolled her eyes out of her head at one TC after another, no comment was made.

 

The difference for me is Andrew and Joe.  Roll your eyes at a player being an insufferable douche and it's funny to me.  Roll your eyes at someone we've only been shown to be hard-working and upbeat in an underdog position and it's not.  

 

But like was said, a lot of people had a big issue with Ciera's eye rolls. 

 

Kimberstormer- I mentioned Kelley's weird celebration but mainly because she was acting so dramatic during the challenge, like her own game hinged on Joe going that night.  Maybe she thought it did but I wished they'd shown us how.   Kelley had immunity. She'd worked with Joe.  She liked Joe enough to give him reward.  Then suddenly she's treating him like he's the one person standing between her and the million and doesn't even deserve the sportsmanship to not openly root against him.  Then rolling her eyes at him at tribal.  It seems like there were crucial scenes missing in that story.  

[Ms Blue Jay]

At this point of  the game I don't see Jeremy as that great of a player as he is portrayed. I mean, I do like him as a human being and the way he treats his wife and family, but other than finding two idols and being on the winning tribe from the start he has not done anything else that is so extraordinary. He has not won an individual immunity or reward challenge yet. He has no other relationship than with Spencer and Tasha. His social game with the rest there is zero. A good player needs to adjust their alliances and/or voting blocs and try to create relationships even with people who seem on the bottom at the time. Jeremy seems to disregard Keith, Abi and Wentworth, even Kimmi fell so much in the outs that she had to create new plans for herself! This is a mistake from Jeremy's part, in my opinion.

 

Jeremy is playing some kind of mirror reflection game to Kelley.  You could say something very similar to Kelley.  Kelley treats Spencer/Jeremy/Tasha as non-entities as well.  You seem to be forgetting that Jeremy and Spencer teamed up with Kelley, Abi and Ciera to vote out Wigglesworth.  Jeremy has adjusted his game and has had to adjust his game.  

 

He had relationships with Joe and Stephen. 

 

Like posters have mentioned time and again, he magically is never targeted, even after playing an idol for another person (indicator to a sharp player that he might have more.)

 

I don't care that he hasn't won challenges.  I wonder what winners have won the game with winning no challenges but I have a suspicion they are out there.

[Bryce Lynch]

The difference for me is Andrew and Joe. Roll your eyes at a player being an insufferable douche and it's funny to me. Roll your eyes at someone we've only been shown to be hard-working and upbeat in an underdog position and it's not.

But like was said, a lot of people had a big issue with Ciera's eye rolls.

Kimberstormer- I mentioned Kelley's weird celebration but mainly because she was acting so dramatic during the challenge, like her own game hinged on Joe going that night. Maybe she thought it did but I wished they'd shown us how. Kelley had immunity. She'd worked with Joe. She liked Joe enough to give him reward. Then suddenly she's treating him like he's the one person standing between her and the million and doesn't even deserve the sportsmanship to not openly root against him. Then rolling her eyes at him at tribal. It seems like there were crucial scenes missing in that story.

I agree that Joe was a much better guy than Savage and was sad to see him go.

That said, I have absolutely no problem with players celebrating when a vote or challenge goes their way.

Also, I rewatched TC and I didn't see any real eye rolling by Wentworth. She made various expressions with her face and her eyes, but I didn't see any Ciera-like eye rolling.

I didn't mind Ciera's eye rolling either, though I wasn't sure whether to be impressed or freaked out by her ability to roll her eyes in different directions. :)

[ProfCrash]

Kelley wasn't the only one on pins and needles. There were a lot of folks who were on board with her. Joe is a good person who works hard around camp and has a great social game. People liked him and he wins challenges like few others can. Joe stood a great chance to win the game. The only way to get Joe out is for him to lose. Kelley knew that people were ready to vote out Joe if he lost and she wanted him out. Keith is not a threat at FTC.

 

The eye rolling is annoying but that is because I used to teach and you get tired of watching students roll their eyes. Joe was a threat to Ciera and Ciera knew it. She knew Joe wasn't working with him and was rolling her eyes at the things he was saying because it was screwing her game. I would prefer not to see the eye roll but I understand it.

[needschocolate]

The other point you raise is also quite interesting: did he or did he not tell Spencer about the idol? At first glance, I'd say he didn't (not his motto, paranoia that Spencer could use the info against him), but then thinking about it further I can see how that could have reassured Spencer enough. So I don't know and hopefully we'll get an answer at some stage :-)

 

I think he did not tell Spencer. Stephen told Spencer about the advantage, Spencer voted Stephen out.  If I was Jeremy, there is no way I would trust Spencer. 

 

But like was said, a lot of people had a big issue with Ciera's eye rolls. 

 

I didn't mind Ciera's eye rolling either, though I wasn't sure whether to be impressed or freaked out by her ability to roll her eyes in different directions. :)

 

I am not a fan of eye-rolling.  However, I found Ciera's eye rolls to be fascinating.  I am pretty sure I saw her eyes roll in different directions at the same time and I think there was one time that her eyes rolled so far back that they made a complete rotation and came back up from the bottom.   

[Special K]

I don't care that he hasn't won challenges.  I wonder what winners have won the game with winning no challenges but I have a suspicion they are out there.

 

Sandra?

[himela]

Jeremy is playing some kind of mirror reflection game to Kelley.  You could say something very similar to Kelley.  Kelley treats Spencer/Jeremy/Tasha as non-entities as well.  You seem to be forgetting that Jeremy and Spencer teamed up with Kelley, Abi and Ciera to vote out Wigglesworth.  Jeremy has adjusted his game and has had to adjust his game.  

 

He had relationships with Joe and Stephen. 

 

Like posters have mentioned time and again, he magically is never targeted, even after playing an idol for another person (indicator to a sharp player that he might have more.)

 

I don't care that he hasn't won challenges.  I wonder what winners have won the game with winning no challenges but I have a suspicion they are out there.

I guess Jeremy is playing the Sandra game "if it ain't me, I'm ok". I don't like this game at all. He has done nothing (other than having two idols by pure luck) to prove he is really worth of being there and winning. And yes, winning challenges is a big part of proving your strength, after all it's "outwit, outPLAY, outlast". I don't understand how Jeremy using Joe as a shield is any different than Kimmi flying under the radar and being dragged to the final 7. Jeremy is a mastermind but Kimmi is a stupid nonexistant player?

 

Jeremy didn't "team up" with the three witches to vote out Wiggles, he just did it so they don't focus on someone from his alliance.

[Guest]

Kelley wasn't the only one on pins and needles. There were a lot of folks who were on board with her. Joe is a good person who works hard around camp and has a great social game. People liked him and he wins challenges like few others can. Joe stood a great chance to win the game. The only way to get Joe out is for him to lose. Kelley knew that people were ready to vote out Joe if he lost and she wanted him out. Keith is not a threat at FTC.

I know but the camera did a lot of focusing on Kelley in particular.  I can't get a screencap to post but throughout Tasha and Kimmi were clutching her like she had some special stake in his defeat.  I just would like to know why suddenly it was do or die to get him out.  

 

And I hate to say it but on rewatch it did look like Abi was grinning still while everyone was rushing over to Joe, which is unlikely to be a retake or inserted reaction because it's a wide shot with even the medic shown rushing over. 

Edited December 4, 2015 by Guest

[Bouffe]

Apparently Joe had been sick prior to the challenge (did someone upthread speculate that he looked sick during the family reward?  If so, good catch!):

 

 

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/12/03/survivor-talk-joe-anglim-cambodia-second-chance

 

Personally, I'm a huge sports fan and I hate that type of fandom that actively roots for the other team to mess up instead of rooting for your team to do well and win.  That's what bothered me about the handholding stuff at the challenge.  YMMV

 

Wow. That is crazy he was able to hold on for so long. I guess that is also why the doctor didn't pull him out of the game.

 

And yes to cheering for your team to do well rather than for the other team to fail. Although I sometimes fail to do so (massive sports fan here, too.)

[Bazinga]

 

I agree also that he didn't play it right. Don't go for the goat who everyone wants to take to the end. Go for Kimmi who is the one agitating for the womens alliance, or Tasha, who is so clearly playing both sides I'm surprised either think they can trust her. Or Jeremy or Spencer. Really, the Abi move was the wrong one and shows that Joe, as nice as he seems, really doesn't have a head for strategy.

Joe's point is that Abi is being allowed to cruise to the finals as a so-called goat that can't win and she is taking one spot in the finals just like their problem with him getting to finals due to immunity and taking one spot.  In that scenario Joe and Abi are even to everyone but the two other people in the final three who would benefit from Abi's presence.  It is an odd point and probably a flimsy one, but makes some sense.  He is saying they are forfeiting one spot that could be one of theirs to Abi and that is true. 

 

My problem with Abi (more) and Kelley isn't that Kelley and Abi (and Stephen) wanted Joe out, it is the glee in wanting him out coupled with eye rolls and nasty, undeserved comments.  If the person in question was nasty, then fine, they deserve nastiness but Joe has not been shown to be nasty. 

 

Kelley's annoyance that Joe made his own bed by winning immunities is ridiculous.  If he had not won these immunities, he would have been voted out as someone who they THINK can go on an immunity run to the finals.  Not like he could hide this.  I don't see the obsession with removing challenge monsters as others are moving forward without being voted out, (Jeremy, Kimmi) just like the immunity monster you can't vote out due to their immunity.  What is the difference?

 

Kimmi only resorted to the women's alliance when it benefited her once her ally Stephen was voted out and she needed the other woman who she had no interest in when they were the other side.  She is just latching onto a new alliance under the guise of 'woman's alliance' as if she just called it 'I am desperate and on the outs/bottom of my alliance and am latching onto your alliance after not being a part of it earlier' without couching it in gender terms, she would probably be denied.  Would Kelley and Abi have accepted Keith (or Joe) if he made an overture about joining them?  But they readily accepted Kimmi and Tasha joining their alliance as females, when they might not have accepted or trusted males joining (Abi's lack of trust for Joe in the prior vote exemplifies this).  The caveat to that is that the added numbers would benefit them once Joe was out.

Edited December 5, 2015 by Bazinga

[Bouffe]

He's a regular chandler (hopefully someone gets the reference).

 

Had to quote to say I got it LOL

[peachmangosteen]

BTW Joe joins the enormous group of people who have targeted Abi and gone home that very same tribal.

 

She has quite the track record! Also, +1 to your entire post.

 

But the kissing was interesting, in that I think it's sweet when father and sons or brothers can kiss each other unself-consciously. That said, by the third time they kissed on the lips, even I was like, aaaaagh, stop it, you're being weird now.

 

Yea at first I was really pleased to see a father and son be comfortable enough to kiss on camera, but then they kissed again. And again. And then Joe's dad tickled his chest. And it got real weird.

 

My other hilarious moment from the episode was after Tasha spills the beans about the possible women's alliance to Spencer and Jeremy. Tasha gives them a WTF look and goes, "wait, you're not actually worried that's going to be a thing right?" Spencer and Jeremy both give these long drawn out no's but immediately Spencer looks off in one distance worried and Jeremy's staring off in the other distance also worried and Tasha's side-eying the both of them with a "seriously...WTH" expression on her face as the camera pans away to the three of them sitting there. Seriously, it is like the funniest shot.

 

This was probably my #1 moment from this ep. The looks on all their faces were comedy gold!

 

I can't accept it as strategy completely because then why isn't what Kimmi is doing (nothing...) strategy as well?

I don't understand how Jeremy using Joe as a shield is any different than Kimmi flying under the radar and being dragged to the final 7. Jeremy is a mastermind but Kimmi is a stupid nonexistant player?

Well for one thing, Jeremy has a penis and Kimmi doesn't. Sadly, when women play that type of UTR, subtle game, they tend to not get credit for it.

 

If he DID tell him, I am pretty sure we would have seen it, but then you never know.

During RI several players knew Rob had an idol but we weren't told that because the narrative was selling Rob as the greatest player ever and everyone else as idiots, so they don't always show us everything.

 

Mines was Tasha convincing them to boot Joe. Something to the effect of:

Tasha: Joe needs to go he can't be beat in immunities.

Jeremy: Yes he can.

Tasha: How many times have you beat him?

and that seemed to be the end of that.

 

 Oh man, that was so great!

Edited December 4, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[NutMeg]

Joe's point is that Abi is being allowed to cruise to the finals as a so-called goat that can't win and she is taking one spot in the finals just like their problem with him getting to finals due to immunity and taking one spot.  In that scenario Joe and Abi are even to everyone but the two other people in the final three who would benefit from Abi's presence.  It is an odd point and probably a flimsy one, but makes some sense.  He is saying they are forfeiting one spot that could be one of theirs to Abi and that is true. 

 

My problem with Abi (more) and Kelley isn't that Kelley and Abi (and Stephen) wanted Joe out, it is the glee in wanting him out coupled with eye rolls and nasty, undeserved comments.  If the person in question was nasty, then fine, they deserve nastiness but Joe has not been shown to be nasty.  Kelley's annoyance that Joe made his own bed by winning immunities is ridiculous.  If he had not won these immunities, he would have been voted out as someone who they THINK can go on an immunity run to the finals.  Not like he could hide this.  I don't see the obsession with removing challenge monsters as others are moving forward without being voted out, (Jeremy, Kimmi) just like the immunity monster you can't vote out due to their immunity.  What is the difference?

I agree with your post overall, but regarding the bolded part, I have to say than after seeing Joe's unanimously friendly and warm reception at Ponderosa, I think this specific challenge monster was also very well liked and that, maybe more than his challenge prowess, made him dangerous if (because of his challenge prowess) he made it to FTC. Maybe if he had had Abi's personality, he would have been kept, notwithstanding his challenge prowess, as a vote to use and as a goat. But if he was as popular/well liked as I think he was, that's a double advantage for him, i.e. double danger for everyone else.

[Bazinga]

 

I think this specific challenge monster was also very well liked and that, maybe more than his challenge prowess, made him dangerous if (because of his challenge prowess) he made it to FTC

Yes, he could win in FTC vote as he is likable but certain voters might resent him (Stephen) for being the "Golden Boy" who didn't earn the spot by strategy (something Stephen, the expert in Survivor, would respect) but by 'only' winning immunity.  He would have his pros and cons in a FTC.  My point is that how is allowing Joe to move forward different then allowing anybody else, like Jeremy, to move forward?  Wouldn't Jeremy be difficult to beat in a FTC?  But Joe is being targeted because you might not be able to vote him out when you want to but you are allowing others who you can vote out but simply don't, to pass forward at the same time.  My point is that there is no difference between "challenge monster"/challenge winner who is likable with friends on the jury then a "strategy monster" (Tasha, Jeremy, Spencer, Kelley) who is also likable and has various friends on the jury.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Bazinga

[peachmangosteen]

My point is that how is allowing Joe to move forward different then allowing anybody else, like Jeremy, to move forward?  Wouldn''t Jeremy be difficult to beat in a FTC?  But Joe is being targeted because you might not be able to vote him out when you want to but you are allowing others who you can vote out but simply aren't, to pass forward at the same time.  My point is that there is no difference.

 

I think it's pretty obvious that the other players don't see Jeremy as as big a threat to win as we (the audience) do. They were much more worried abut Joe's chances of winning, for good reason. Now that he's gone I imagine Jeremy might get some more looks his way in the threat department, which is precisely why Jeremy wanted to keep Joe for as long as possible. Although I actually think Spencer might be in danger before Jeremy. Jeremy's game, even after saving Stephen with the idol, is apparently very UTR and subtle, while Spencer's, like Joe's, threat of winning is more easily noticed.

Edited December 4, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[NutMeg]

My point is that how is allowing Joe to move forward different then allowing anybody else, like Jeremy, to move forward?

I know, and I find it ironic that a challenge monster is often deemed more dangerous that other types of players such as Jeremy or other types who go on to win. I think the key is that with the Jeremies of the game the other players think they have all the time in the world to vote them out, whether with the Joes they perceive they have only a few opportunities to do so. Now of course the Jeremies sometimes also win immunities, play immunity idols or otherwise don't nicely let themselves be voted out when the other players think their time has come (that's exactly what happened last season: Joe voted out as immunity threat, then Mike using a combo of immunity wins and HII to get to the end and win the whole shebang).

 

That being said, I'm also very puzzled as to why Jeremy hasn't been targeted yet in this game. It makes absolutely no sense, but it could be that there is a reason that was not shown to us. In that regards, back to the season that Boston Rob (finally) won, I was wondering why apparently savvy players such as Ashley and Andrey weren't targeting him, and then in interviews it was reavealed that they (or at least one of them, memory is fuzzy) had known about his HII for a while, and that was why they never targeted him. It would have helped me understand their strategy better if I had known that while they were playing.  

[Ms Blue Jay]

But you can target someone with an idol.  By doing a split vote.  

 

Jeremy didn't "team up" with the three witches to vote out Wiggles, he just did it so they don't focus on someone from his alliance.

 

No idea what that means

Edited December 4, 2015 by Ms Blue Jay

[ProfCrash]

I think that they see Jeremy as a threat but that Jeremy has more side alliances and people believe that their alliance is the one Jeremy is really true to. Jeremy protected both Stephen and Joe. He flat out told Spencer that he would do the same to protect Spencer. Jeremy has proved his loyalty to the people he is aligned with. If you believe that Jeremy is aligned with you, then you want to keep him.

 

I think Kelley and Jeremy are the two threats to win this game. Kelley's path is a bit more clear, she is the scrappy underdog who served two swaps, played an idol to knock out Andrew and managed to work her way out of a crappy situation after the merge. She has a second idol to play and managed to work with Spencer to blindside Stephen twice. She has been able to keep Abi with her and kind of calm.

 

Jeremy was the head of a large alliance, prevented the vote out of Joe and Stephen on several occasions. He has helped his tribe win reward and is someone who people brought info to. He has managed several sub alliances.

 

Tasha is screwed. Her 6 day control over Abi pales in comparison to Kelley's control over Abi since the merge. She has not made any huge moves and is going to be seen as betraying the women's alliance when she votes with Jeremy and Spencer. I am not going to down play how badly the fighting with Kass went over, I think the drama probably turned off Keith. I don't think her comments about Keith and Joe being selfish for choosing to compete are going to be forgotten. She loses those three votes at FTC. She is not the person swaying folks on who to vote for in her main alliance.

 

That said, I bet Tasha thinks that she has a better shot against Jeremy and Spencer then she does Kelley so she is not going to work with the woman's alliance.

[slowpoked]

Joe's point is that Abi is being allowed to cruise to the finals as a so-called goat that can't win and she is taking one spot in the finals just like their problem with him getting to finals due to immunity and taking one spot.  In that scenario Joe and Abi are even to everyone but the two other people in the final three who would benefit from Abi's presence.  It is an odd point and probably a flimsy one, but makes some sense.  He is saying they are forfeiting one spot that could be one of theirs to Abi and that is true. 

 

My problem with Abi (more) and Kelley isn't that Kelley and Abi (and Stephen) wanted Joe out, it is the glee in wanting him out coupled with eye rolls and nasty, undeserved comments.  If the person in question was nasty, then fine, they deserve nastiness but Joe has not been shown to be nasty. 

 

I think that's the key right there. TPTB shows what they want you to know, and what narrative they want set for this season. Joe himself said on his RHAP interview that things got nasty between him and Abi the previous tribal. Nasty words and accusations were thrown from both sides, apparently going for about an hour or so, and I guess they just never recovered from there, and probably that's where Abi's words of "moldy" and "bad apple" were coming from. To Joe's credit, he admitted he had a part in the nastiness Abi showed to him. But of course, since Abi is the resident villain this season and he's Joey Amazing, they don't need to show the nastiness from Joe. Joe also suggested that someday there should be a Survivor XXL so we can all see the footage on the cutting room and we will get a much better picture of why things turned out the way they did.

 

I guess that makes sense. Tasha has also been shown to be a good soldier this season but Kass and others have said she has spewed nastiness that went personal a lot of times this season. Kass said Tasha went full-on crazy yelling "I'm fueled by hate Jeff! I'm fueled by hate!!!" just before their balut showdown. But we're not shown that because it doesn't fit the Tasha narrative TPTB have set this season.

 

So that's why I take all this smirks, eyerolls, celebrations, or even words said out of context with a grain of salt. TPTB is going to edit the heck of this show to tell the story they want told, not what actually happened. Heck, even the RC picks were made dramatic as if Kimmi was the last person picked (before Joe), when Kimmi's TH said Wentworth picked her first. Because they want to create the story that there's a new alliance forming between the ladies and the RC pick is an important part of that.

[eurekagirl mOo]

Don't know about voting blocks or alliances--that all makes my head hurt. BUT I do know Joes hair? Is EVERYTHING......OMG...Let me run my fingers through that beautiful mass of curls any day!!

[himela]

No idea what that means

Sorry my english is not great. I meant that he didn't team up with them cause he is close to them or he wants to work with then rather than to avoid one of his own allies to be targeted at the time. And this is proven next two tribal councils when the witches try to vote out Stephen, and they finally succeed. So this shows that Jeremy was never in a true alliance and/or voting bloc with the witches. He just went with the flow to avoid losing Stephen.

[slowpoked]

Yea at first I was really pleased to see a father and son be comfortable enough to kiss on camera, but then they kissed again. And again. And then Joe's dad tickled his chest. And it got real weird.

 

I'm not going to take credit for this, but someone on Twitter posted that Joe's family reunion probably looks like that recurring SNL sketch where the family gets all inappropriately kissy and touchy.

 

[eurekagirl mOo]

Here's my take....Stephen Fishbach is a nerd. He's skinny, not in shape, and looks like he spends all his free time playing online games (not that there's anything wrong with that) 

Joe has a six pac, a great tan and the most gorgeous hair ever. He's athletic and wins at physical challenges.

All I've heard this fish guy do is call Joe a "golden boy". Jealous much? It just came off to me as pure and simple jealousy that a good looking, athletic guy was popular and there was poor fishhead with his Flintstone feet and upset tummy.

And they say women are bitchy! 

ETA---Joe doesn't break down in tears every 10 minutes either. In his own words he "sucks it up" or in my words-He acts like a man and not a whiny, sobbing child. Y

[Guest]

I think it's pretty obvious that the other players don't see Jeremy as as big a threat to win as we (the audience) do.

 

Ciera saw Jeremy as the winner weeks ago, and said so.  I don't know why no one else is mentioning it or targeting him, either.

[KimberStormer]

Winston9-DT3, on 04 Dec 2015 - 05:36 AM, said:Winston9-DT3, on 04 Dec 2015 - 05:36 AM, said:

She'd worked with Joe.  She liked Joe enough to give him reward.  Then suddenly she's treating him like he's the one person standing between her and the million and doesn't even deserve the sportsmanship to not openly root against him.  Then rolling her eyes at him at tribal.  It seems like there were crucial scenes missing in that story.  

 

Liking someone and not wanting to vote them out are two different things, or they should be.  That's part of the reason I find the Kelley hate so silly.  I'm sure she likes Joe.  They seem to get along well.  She was great with him last episode telling him to not sit there and mope but get up and play.  Now, there's a women's alliance in the picture.  For it to succeed, it's crucial that Joe go.  I'm one of those people who didn't see any eye-rolling at Joe, or expressions of annoyance at Joe.  Did we see any confessionals where Kelley said "I sure hate that jerk, Joe Anglim"?  Saying things to other people playing, like "he dug his own grave" was just pure gameplay, frankly kind of obvious gameplay, just like with Terry on NuTakeo, throwing someone else under the bus when you're on the bottom.

 

It's nothing personal.  It shouldn't be anything personal.  Voting people you like out is like making your mom pay rent when she lands on your property in Monopoly: it's just the game.  How many people draw hearts and other expressions of respect and love on their vote against someone?  It happens like every episode.  And switching allegiances between people quickly and fluidly, so that one week you're voting together, the next week you're voting against each other, makes Survivor a much more interesting and fun game than Pagonging does, so I'm all for it.  It's not "mean" or evil or anything to vote out someone when it's good for your game to do so.

 

Bouffe, on 04 Dec 2015 - 07:35 AM, said:Bouffe, on 04 Dec 2015 - 07:35 AM, said:

And yes to cheering for your team to do well rather than for the other team to fail. Although I sometimes fail to do so (massive sports fan here, too.)

 

In this situation, what's the difference, how can you tell between one and the other?

Edited December 4, 2015 by KimberStormer

[nutty1]

I am loving this season, but I thought the episode was a bit boring and predictable. I did enjoy the family visit. I loved watching Spencer and his girlfriend!!
The girls should stick together. When they get down to 4, get rid of Tasha or Kelly, and the other would win with all the votes! Who would give votes to Kimmy or Abi?

 

I didn't mind Kelly this episode. I didn't find her actions inappropriate. I thought she was actually nice to Joe after her fainted.

 

Go Spencer....still rooting for him all the way!

[laurakaye]

I think it's pretty obvious that the other players don't see Jeremy as as big a threat to win as we (the audience) do. They were much more worried abut Joe's chances of winning, for good reason. Now that he's gone I imagine Jeremy might get some more looks his way in the threat department, which is precisely why Jeremy wanted to keep Joe for as long as possible. Although I actually think Spencer might be in danger before Jeremy. Jeremy's game, even after saving Stephen with the idol, is apparently very UTR and subtle, while Spencer's, like Joe's, threat of winning is more easily noticed.

Just wanted to add that watching from the comfort of my couch, I sometimes have to chuckle at just how UTR Jeremy is playing.  In strategy meetings, he casts his eyes downward and for the most part, listens quietly.  He says all the right things at TC.  He's not a challenge beast - at the moment, Spencer and Keith seem more physically threatening than does Jeremy, the ripped firefighter.  I remember how he carefully re-positioned himself at Savage's feet while Savage swayed in the hammock and discussed voting strategy.  When he wants to be persuasive, he does so in a low-key way.  And then there's that extra idol chilling in his back pocket.  It's pretty brilliant.

Edited December 4, 2015 by laurakaye

[slowpoked]

From one of Joe's exits, he explains how Keith voted for Tasha that seemed out of nowhere. Apparently, he played both sides. He went to Jeremy, Tasha and Spencer to try and get Abi out. Then he went to the women (Abi, Wentworth and Kimmi) and Keith, and told them to get Tasha out. He went on a confessional afterwards and when he came back, the mood apparently changed, so he had an idea there's a strong chance he was going home. Obviously the three women would not vote Tasha out because they're trying to form the women alliance, but didn't tell Keith in fear of him telling Joe.

[scowl]

I went back and looked for the Kelley eye rolls that people are talking about. I didn't find any, just a look of disbelief and an "Oh my God" when Joe said Abi isn't really worried about getting votes:

 

 

And Kelley shaking her head when Joe encouraged everyone to stick with his plan so they could "move forward":

 

[ljenkins782]

From one of Joe's exits, he explains how Keith voted for Tasha that seemed out of nowhere. Apparently, he played both sides. He went to Jeremy, Tasha and Spencer to try and get Abi out. Then he went to the women (Abi, Wentworth and Kimmi) and Keith, and told them to get Tasha out. He went on a confessional afterwards and when he came back, the mood apparently changed, so he had an idea there's a strong chance he was going home. Obviously the three women would not vote Tasha out because they're trying to form the women alliance, but didn't tell Keith in fear of him telling Joe.

That's really interesting. I only watched his Ponderosa and Day After videos and wondered what he meant by the others figuring out that it was him who was playing both sides.

 

As for the timing of that confessional, that seems rather unfortunate. Do they have a choice to not do a confessional at a given time? Being away from camp at such a pivotal moment sounds like a bad idea, but that might have been out of his control. 

 

I wonder if there will be any fallout for Keith from that random Tasha vote next week. 

[slowpoked]

I wonder if there will be any fallout for Keith from that random Tasha vote next week. 

Well, it was only random to the audience, but not to the players. If anything, Abi/Wentworth/Kimmi will know Keith voted "with" them, at least before they switched the vote to Joe. It may be a little random to Jeremy/Tasha/Spencer, but I'm sure these players have already talked afterwards and said that Joe had planned to vote out Tasha with them.

 

If anything, it showed Joe eventually sided with Jeremy/Tasha/Spencer when it came down to the actual voting (or else he would have written Tasha), and both alliances have probably figured out by then that Joe tried to play both sides but lost anyway, so voting him out was the right move after all.

[Guest]

Liking someone and not wanting to vote them out are two different things, or they should be.  That's part of the reason I find the Kelley hate so silly.  I'm sure she likes Joe.  They seem to get along well.  She was great with him last episode telling him to not sit there and mope but get up and play.  Now, there's a women's alliance in the picture.  For it to succeed, it's crucial that Joe go.  

For the record I don't hate Kelley.  I didn't call her a mean girl even.  I just said I didn't understand the weird dramatic postures and rooting against him at the challenge.  I did say eye rolls at tribal but I guess they would be better described as looks of disbelief and disdain at Joe. 

 

For a women's alliance to work they don't necessarily need to get rid of Joe.  Get rid of Jeremy, Keith or Spencer.  Joe's already shown he's willing to vote with the women. 

 

Hell, get rid of Tasha and keep Joe.  She outed the plan.