S06.E04: Here's Not Here

[RedheadZombie]

I got a little confused by the details of ASZ. I thought when Michonne's little group returned last week, the fence had been breached and permanently damaged. So when Rick was yelling to open the gate, I was confused. I then remembered that we saw Morgan close the gate after running off the Wolves, and he wouldn't have done that if one of the walls were down.

[gutbuster]

I think Morgan knows the Wolf can't be 'saved' after what he said about killing the children. I think threats to children may be the thing that's most able to keep Morgan from going full zen. That's why he locked the cell instead of leaving it unlocked. Morgan doesn't have the trust in the wolf that The Cheeseman had for him when he left Morgan's cell unlocked. Morgan doesn't want to kill, but he's also already realizing that there's no coming back for some people and they still need to be dealt with. How does he resolve that? Also, what is stopping the Wolf from gnawing through his restraints, breaking the window and just leaving? I could be wrong, but I think Wolfy's hands were tied in front of him, he wasn't gagged, and there were obviously no bars on the windows.

 

I didn't mind the episode, but the show is SO depressing all. the. time. I know it has to be bleak because of the subject matter but there is no balance. I can't even enjoy the bright spots because I know they'll be blotted out instantly. I'm the worst at picking up on editing cues and clues but even I'm getting to where it's become a distraction to enjoying the show, because I know any new or potentially interesting character is going to likely be promptly killed off, (in addition to established characters I already like also being killed off). All of the nice moments with The Cheeseman couldn't even resonate with me because I just kept waiting for him to die. 

 

I don't worship Morgan but I like the character and enjoyed the mystery of his fate throughout the past seasons. It's been weird having him around full time and this episode and discussion here has helped me to inform the annoying choices he's making now. It was very affecting to see him so far gone throughout pretty much the whole episode. Particularly in the moment when he stepped out of the cell and immediately lunged at Eastman like a madman (right before the quick cut to commercial), in that instant he somehow managed to look so small, broken, and pathetic that it was actually a little upsetting and I felt actual sadness for him. Also sad was seeing him kill those two people the way he did. It  was awful, but I think it makes his pacifism now more understandable. On this show killing living people 'taints' you in a way, even if it is necessary. So it's hard to look at Morgan the same way seeing the side of him we saw in this episode. For me, his trip to Crazy Town was far more depressing to watch than Rick's and I'm not sure why. 

 

This whole situation is tricky. On the one hand, the no kill policy is so selfish if he wants to be around other people. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. But on the other hand, I agree with what someone else touched on about how Morgan is afraid that killing will send him back to that dark place and he doesn't want to go back. That makes sense to me. Maybe he isn't sure yet of how much he's actually healed. Maybe he's worried that if he kills someone and loses it, he might go back into 'Clear' mode which would only make him part of the problem. He wouldn't be able to distinguish between friend and foe and might hurt someone by accident. I just want to like him again. It's hard right now.

 

On a bright note, I liked the moment where he tossed Tabitha the peanut butter(?) treat and kept checking over his shoulder to see if Eastman noticed. 

[bookrat]

All I could think about after watching this episode is "there goes Morgan,, bringing death and destruction wherever he goes."

[AndySmith]

That people like Glenn and Morgan can’t survive in this world because the world have turn into a place where only those who believe like Rick can survive.

 

I don't see that at all with regards to Glenn. Glenn seems like someone Morgan should be, ie, a guy who doesn't enjoy killing but sometimes has to as an absolute last resort.

 

He experience first hand how the world can change a man who was willing to do everything to help a stranger, to save a stranger’s life, can become a man who had no respect for anyone’s life. So Eastman had every right to kill that man.

 

But if you follow Eastman's philosophy to it's natural conclusion, he had no right to kill that person, he should have just kept trying to rehabilitate him. How is the guy who murdered Eastman's family any different from the Wolves? Morgan's prisoner shows no signs that he wants to change, he just keeps threatening that if he gets out he'll try to slaughter everyone at Alexandria. Pretty much like the guy who slaughtered Eastman's family.

 

So when Morgan see people like the wolves, he sees his old self.  Because he sees himself in them before he got back his humanity, thanks to Eastman who didn’t kill him. So because of that he can’t just killed them without first trying to save them.

 

That only works, as others have pointed out, in isolation. When you're living alone and some random person walks onto your farm or whatever, you can afford to be that generous. But, what if say, a dozen or so of the Wolves showed up at Eastmans? How would he and/or Morgan dealt with that? Redeeming people is a nice idea, but some people just aren't redeemable in this ZA. You'd think Morgan would figure this out after meeting so many of the Wolves and seeing that NONE OF THEM seem to show any remorse or sign that they want to change. You'd think invading Alexandria and attempting to slaughter every man, woman, and child there would have been another clue, but I guess Morgan is needed as an artificial counterpoint to Rick's POV or something.

 

I didn't get the impression Eastman was actively doing the zen stuff at work. It was developed after he murdered the pyscho and of course he reflects back on his life through this prism.

 

I thought it came before. Didn't he start aikido after his daughter gave him the rabbit foot or something?

Edited November 3, 2015 by AndySmith

[TattleTeeny]

How did you know?

 

 

You know, I don't know...to be fair, I may have merely assumed it and just happened to be correct, I guess. I think because, even despite the part where he was walking away (where it looked like he might be leaving Alexandria), the (lack of) end of his fight with the Wolf was what stuck out to me from last week so maybe that was where my mind left off. I guess it could look ambiguous, now that you mention it.

ETA: I just asked my BF what he thought. Both of us remembered the previous "everything I have" conversation in the woods, so that was probably a big factor in knowing Morgan was still dealing with that Wolf.

Edited November 3, 2015 by TattleTeeny

[CletusMusashi]

I'm just going to pretend this episode never happened. I'd just as soon watched the Alexandria ladies sit around and bake fruit cobblers.

I second this motion. As long as they share their fruit cobblers with Tabitha and Lord Fluffington, who are both running for mayor while Deanna continues to hide in the truck, completely forgotten by everyone.

Edited November 3, 2015 by CletusMusashi

[CletusMusashi]

 

I'm curious about CheeseWhiz's grasp of the world situation. 

This may be the best nickname proposed.

I've been trying to tell myself with half my brain that "Cheeseman" sounds like "Eastman." But it really doesn't.

I've also tried to imagine everyone pronouncing it "Checheemin," like Dr. Spaceman on 30Rock, but that's probably not gonna happen either.

[Pollock]

Is the state of Georgia that liberal that they would put a confessed triple murderer (Creighton Dallas Winton) on Freeway Flower Duty? Seems to me that he'd be locked away on Death Row, especially since he committed the murders while an escapee. Of course, this was written by the same guy who wants us to believe that Morgan became a stick-fu master in a matter of days (maybe weeks? Certainly wasn't all that long.) 

 

I'm not a member of the "Lennie James walks on water" club, so this episode was extremely "meh" for me. I wasn't dying to know what Morgan had been up to all the while our main group was fleeing the prison, being held captive at Terminus, etc. And his tale, such as it was, certainly didn't require 90 minutes.

Well, to be fair, it was 64 minutes including the credits, and I'm not watching live (not in the US), so those 64 minutes really flew by. The commercials seem to be a plague if it really took 30 minutes more to watch this episode. Ugh!

 

I loved it. I wasn't spoiled so when it began and I understood that it would be an episode only about Morgan instead of the follow-up on the herd and Glenn death, I was pissed. If I don't have to like a character to find his story interesting, I like to have resolution to the more pressing problems like : thousands of zombies coming for their asses or the fallout from Glenn's death (or not death). But I was quickly drawn in by the performances and the story in general.

 

Of course, the "all life is precious" mantra in the context of a zombie apocalypse is horseshit and will prove to be the end of the Alexandria community (I mean, maybe not any more than the herd coming but in an "enemy within" way) and I wanted to fucking slap Morgan when he didn't kill the Wolf. It's good to have convictions but if that conviction endangers the life of so many others, most of whom you just saw being absolutely useless in a fight for their lives, maybe you should put it to a vote? :)

 

 

Anyway, bolded part, I'm with you for the timeline, Aikido takes years of practice to be an effective self defense martial art but I chose to believe he learned the beginners "simple" forms and trained 16 hours a day for 3 or 4 months having nothing better to do. And voilà I give you Morgan: the last Aikido master on earth. 

[crowswork]

 

If anyone has animals during the apocalypse, please let him run free so they can take care of themselves. No animal worth its salt, except maybe Turtles, could get caught by a walker. In fact, with no cars and hunters there should be a huge overpopulation of game animals.(I wonder, if walkers smell like they look.) It should give them away.

Maybe later in the show, they could discover an entire population of house cats, living out the apocalypse in trees and on rooftops. "We'll be up here."

 

 

[Josette]

So, even though Crighton Dallas Williams broke out of prison specifically to kill three innocent people, two of them children, the State of Georgia spared him the death penalty and instead allowed that charming fellow to work on a road crew.  Or something like that.

 

Totally agree that Morgan should have invited that pathetic couple to stay at the cabin. 

[snowwhyte]

Yeah, Morgan could be all, "I know I look scary but I have a safe place to stay nearby. There is a cage built in the living room but don't worry that was put there by the previous owner to kill a psychopathic killer. Not me, I'm not a psychopathic killer. I'm just a regular killer. So, you want to come home with me?"

[Mars7]

...I was referring to about ten, actually. Different strokes, but man, season 2 was very very much a snoozefest for me, Darabont or no Darabont, and even worse, it made me dislike almost every character for a while.

I, very personally, didn't find this episode boring, but I understand why others would. I'm pretty much Lennie James's bitch, so put him on my screen for 90 minutes and I'm a happy little camper. I also found it more necessary to the story than a lot of other one-off episodes, or even arcs (seriously, what was the point of the whole Grady storyline last season? To make us know Noah just to kill him off horribly? Thanks, show), because Morgan has been, so far, pretty necessary to the story they're telling. Also, there was a goat! Brillip didn't have a goat, and Beth only had (dead) guinea pigs, so Morgan wins.

Frank Darabont was the original creator of "The Walking Dead"  and not Scott Gimple and certainly not Robert Kirkman.   I wonder if anyone noticed that some of the actors from Darabont's film "The Mist" were casted for TWD.  They were Laurie Holden, Melissa McBride, and Jeffrey DeMunn.  During the first season, Thomas Jane was going to be casted for TWD but due to his contractual obligations to the HBO series "Hung" he was taken off the list.  

 

I never really noticed there were 10 regressive shows in six seasons.  I just noticed that in the last few seasons they've been doing things like the Beth, Noah and Morgan driven ones.  I never thought that the entire Season 2 was boring per se because the Rick Grimes, Lori Grimes, Carl Grimes, Shane Walsh and Dale Horvath characters were all essential in telling a story leading up to further carnage.   The best seasons were later on such as the Governor, Terminus and now Alexandria.  

[van]

Besides the Killer Clown on American Horror Story, John Carroll Lynch was also a killer minion to the main villain on Carnivale. This is the only thing I’ve seen him in where he plays a “nice” person. Maybe it’s residual feelings from watching those other shows, but he still gives me the creeps.

 

I am not alone! lol... I suppose kudos to his acting, but JCL is eternally a "bad guy" in my head because he gives a creepy vibe without trying. I could not buy this psychiatrist being a Miyagi mentoring Morgan in the ways of Zen, when it's canon in my head he killed and raped in alternate universes ;) The way they shot the training was cheesy (tone was so out of place), and the shove-Morgan-Aw!-I-got-bit was so contrived.

 

Overall, meh for me, too.

[Nashville]

I'm sure Eastman said others were charmed by the pyscho, but he never was. In fact the pyscho targeted Eastman when he realized that Eastman saw through the facade. I didn't get the impression Eastman was actively doing the zen stuff at work. It was developed after he murdered the pyscho and of course he reflects back on his life through this prism.

 

My recollection as well.

 

 

Soooo...  we see Morgan leaving his pet Wolf, hesitating, then deciding to lock the door.

Er -  by the way, did yall notice which door that was, that Morgan locked?

You should - you've seen it before.

Specifically, when Carol ran through it (with a couple of Wolves in tow) on her way to the armory, after she'd expended her last rounds of ammunition shooting the looting Wolves who mistook her for Aphid.

And since Carol ran INTO this particular door and later popped up at the armory, it seems pretty strongly inferred there's another door OUT.

So are We The Viewers simply supposed to assume this other door is locked as well...?

 

I think the lack of attention to detail so prevalent in FTWD's writing may be more infectious than the Z virus.

[poppytheastronaut]

Didn't think I would, but I actually ended up liking this episode. It helped to be forewarned that it was happening, and to have a few days to get over the angry/manipulated feelings given the cliffhangeriness of Ep 3. As it turned out, as the last three episodes just did not let up in the tension stakes, I really appreciated the change of pace. Like getting a bit of a breather before being launched back in to it again. 

[editorgrrl]

I didn't get the impression Eastman was actively doing the zen stuff at work. It was developed after he murdered the psycho, and of course he reflects back on his life through this prism.

Eastman said he found a flyer for aikido when his daughter was five, which may have been as many as 25 or 30 years ago.

According to The Walking Dead timeline, it was 7 months between "Clear" and "No Sanctuary" (where Morgan found the map), so he wasn't training very long.

Edited November 3, 2015 by editorgrrl

[AndySmith]

Frank Darabont was the original creator of "The Walking Dead"  and not Scott Gimple and certainly not Robert Kirkman

 

No, Frank Darabont was the original showrunner and developer of TWD TV show. The Walking Dead was created by Robert Kirkman originally as a comic book. In fact, Darabont was co-hired with Gale Anne Hurd as executive producers when the show began development, so he can't even get sole credit for that.

 

Granted, I'm not sure who did what for how long, but to say Darabont was the creator of TWD in any way is just wrong.

Edited November 3, 2015 by AndySmith

[Eucrid]

Unless I completely missed it, no. They just act like crazy people, but we haven't gotten an explanation as to why. Or why they put the W on their forehead. I know it means wolves, but why is it on their foreheads?

 

Because stuff happens people in the ZA and they end up messed up like Morgan was. Most people don't get saved by a zen cheesemaker and his goat so they stay crazy. We don't really need a back story for every crazy threat thats out there, we have enough info to explain why people can end up like that.

[BetyBee]

I imagined when Terrible Teeth Wolf, unmoved by Morgan's story, stated his philosophy of killing everyone including children, that Morgan would go inform Carol so that SHE could take care of the situation, leaving Morgan's useless among people philosophy intact.  Wrong.  The second Rick or Carol finds out, Wolf Douche is a goner.  He can't be long for this show due to the odd state of his teeth, imo.  Those chompers make him a short-timer. We need to imagine a decent looking person under all the dirt, so he's temporary. I hope they get some info out of him on Wolf-base, but he's probably the last one who would give up info.  

 

That said, I did like the Cheeseman and that he rescued Morgan from his insanity.  I don't agree with his numbers regarding psychopaths and rehabilitation.  I think his philosophy was ok in his cabin, but unrealistic in the ZA.  Morgan puts others in danger and he should not live among people if he's going to continue with his "all life is precious" schtick.  

[nodorothyparker]

Frank Darabont deserves credit for adapting a comic of flat line drawings into the TV show.   He wrote and directed most of the first season but was canned during the work on season 2 when AMC discovered to its utter horror that making a show like this costs actual money.  Glen Mazzara is responsible for what went on at the farm in season 2 and the prison in season 3.

 

I don't know what it says about me or this particular episode that I have almost no thoughts on it and very little to say about it.  Most weeks I find myself ruminating on the episode quite a lot at least through Monday and Tuesday as I go about things and have no shortage of opinions on various aspects of what I liked and what I didn't.  This week, I'll concur that it was beautifully shot and acted.  Beyond that though, I've just got nothing other than thinking that there's no coming back for Morgan ever if his pet wolf somehow gets loose and kills a member of our team because of some misguided notion about the sanctity of all life.

Edited November 3, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[GodsBeloved]

I need this on a t-shirt: "Kill 'em all" is my contingency creed.

Words uttered by my beloved Sparty Spartacus, though he said them instead of 'em.

[GodsBeloved]

The writers really are determined to ruin another strong black male character from the comics.

:(.

 

I don't see that at all with regards to Glenn. Glenn seems like someone Morgan should be, ie, a guy who doesn't enjoy killing but sometimes has to as an absolute last resort.

 

Who has Glenn killed? I thought I heard Yvette on TD say that Glenn has never killed anyone, liviing that is.

Edited November 3, 2015 by GodsBeloved

[Juliegirlj]

Eastman's Zen philosophy ( and now Morgan's) is great for normal times but not in a zombie apocalypse. He obviously had no contact with people like The Governor, or the people from Terminus, or even the wolves until now. The fact is self survival has to come before trying to salvage every human life, and in in this world the two cannot coincide. On The Talking Dead, Lennie said Morgan still believes every life is precious, even after what happened w/the Wolves, and what the wolf said. He feels responsible somewhat for people dying but it doesn't change his philosophy. Morgan will either have to change or he will die- we've seen this over and over- those with a pie in the sky attitude that won't adjust end up dead.

[nodorothyparker]

Who has Glenn killed? I thought I heard Yvette on TD say that Glenn has never killed anyone, liviing that is.

 

 

I know this has been asserted over and over.  That would mean we're apparently supposed to believe that Glenn never actually aimed at or hit anyone shooting at him in either attack on the prison or that he went out of his way not to kill anyone when he and Maggie were trying to fight their way out of Woodbury.

[editorgrrl]

Glenn seems like someone Morgan should be, ie, a guy who doesn't enjoy killing but sometimes has to as an absolute last resort.

Who has Glenn killed?

According to the wiki, Glenn has only killed zombies: http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/Glenn_Rhee_(TV_Series)

Edited November 3, 2015 by editorgrrl

[AngelaHunter]

. Or why they put the W on their forehead. I know it means wolves, but why is it on their foreheads?

 

Maybe's it's like that movie "Priest", where all the priests have giant, red crosses tattoed on their foreheads, just so we dullards won't have to strain our brains trying to sort out the players.

[RustbeltWriter]

 

I didn't mind the episode, but the show is SO depressing all. the. time. I know it has to be bleak because of the subject matter but there is no balance. I can't even enjoy the bright spots because I know they'll be blotted out instantly.

 

This is a major complaint I have about the show in general and this episode specifically. I wonder if the showrunners and writers are just lazy and falling back on doom and gloom to resolve every problem. For example, how likely is Eastman's back story? It would have been sufficient for him to have had his job but lost his family after the virus began to spread. That story is quite common in the world of TWD (see Jim season 1). It was just ridiculously over the top to include a psycopath who breaks out of jail to kill his family so Eastman puts a cage in his cabin and blah blah blah. It's just too much and too stupid. My fear is that the hoplessness and violence on this show will escalate to such heights that it will become a parody of itself. I've said before that without hope no one would want to survive the apocalypse. Right now there is no hope motivating these characters.

[magpye29]

Okay, I've just got to put it out there, because I haven't found the answer in this thread.  What in the hell does the title actually MEAN?

[riverheightsnancy]

I'm pretty new to TWD and binge watched pretty much all of the entire series before the new season started (except for a few episodes in season 4 including the Grove-I had heard what they were about and wasn't ready to watch yet), anyway, how much time has lapsed since Rick went into a coma and now in ASZ? I am curious to know how long Eastman was out there alone too. Any guesses?  A year? 2? More?

[editorgrrl]

Okay, I've just got to put it out there, because I haven't found the answer in this thread. What in the hell does the title actually MEAN?

It's just something Morgan scrawled on his wall, and then again on a rock at his campsite.

How much time has lapsed since Rick went into a coma and now in ASZ? I am curious to know how long Eastman was out there alone too. Any guesses? A year? 2? More?

According to The Walking Dead timeline, Carol baked that casserole on day 552 of the zombie apocalypse.

Edited November 3, 2015 by editorgrrl

[nachomama]

Eastman at least states "I will not allow you to kill me" so his philosphy is slightly different than Morgan, when he asks to be killed. So aside from sheer stupidity, he (Eastman) wouldn't purposely get bit and did not want to die. Therefore, I conclude, that if he were in Alexandria he would not only defend himself and kill the wolves he would kill someone actively hacking arms and legs off of innocent people. That's the part of Morgan's philosphy that bugs me. Even if killing someone else should be avoided, self defense doesn't count and I should think the lives of others as well. If Morgan is a superior fighter and can wear down any opponent and chooses not deliver a killing blow, great, wonderful. This situation doesn't allow for that. Kill or be killed or watch those around you be killed. Quai Chang Kane was a pacifist but he would tell Morgan to kill em all! 

Edited November 3, 2015 by nachomama

[magpye29]

^^^Thanks!  I thought I was missing something.

[nodorothyparker]

Most timelines I've seen put us 500-something to nearly 600 days out, so a little less than two years from the very beginning of the ZA.  Didn't Rick say something in the season opener about them only being in the ASZ for a few weeks?

 

Eastman said he was out in the woods torturing his own pet murderer to death before and when he went back to Atlanta afterward found out that the world had ended.  The only thing he mentions after that is going back to the family home to retrieve his daughter's drawing and then fighting his way back out.  That suggested to me that he maybe he's been sitting out alone in the woods all this time since then, which then sort of explains how he can still be sticking to his all life is sacred philosophy.  It's very easy to think that if you haven't been tested much by what the world has become.

[Dobian]

I liked the episode more than most, but Eastman getting bitten was contrived.  Why would he turn his back on the walker to push Morgan out of the way?  Why wouldn't he just bump Morgan to the side and shove his stick in the walker's face?  It's funny, I was watching that Mythbusters zombie episode from a couple years ago over the weekend, where we saw them running and weaving through about a hundred and fifty "zombies".  To get bit by a lone zombie, you'd have to either be really drunk or pretty much trying to get bit.

[JBody]

My recollection as well.

 

 

Soooo...  we see Morgan leaving his pet Wolf, hesitating, then deciding to lock the door.

Er -  by the way, did yall notice which door that was, that Morgan locked?

You should - you've seen it before.

Specifically, when Carol ran through it (with a couple of Wolves in tow) on her way to the armory, after she'd expended her last rounds of ammunition shooting the looting Wolves who mistook her for Aphid.

And since Carol ran INTO this particular door and later popped up at the armory, it seems pretty strongly inferred there's another door OUT.

So are We The Viewers simply supposed to assume this other door is locked as well...?

 

I think the lack of attention to detail so prevalent in FTWD's writing may be more infectious than the Z virus.

 

That's what I was wondering.  So when Wolfie unties himself and tries for the pantry door he'll get his head blown clear off by barista Olivia, correct?  Please make this happen.

[riverheightsnancy]

According to The Walking Dead timeline, Carol baked that casserole on day 552 of the zombie apocalypse.

Thanks for that info.  Wow, just barely a year and a half (@1.5). That is a lot of hell on earth for only a year and a half. No wondering people are struggling to reconcile their prior belief systems and morality with this "new world". I suppose for some of them, there is a tiny shred or sliver of hope that things could go back to the "way they were". The more time that goes by, the less likely they will think that way (I surmise). 

[stretch]

My lasting takeaway from this episode was that after one episode I liked Eastman better than I like all of CDB and the Alexandrians.

 

Also, hat tip to whoever said Schrödinger's Glenn above - I'm still giggling over that one.

[JBody]

Frank Darabont deserves credit for adapting a comic of flat line drawings into the TV show.   He wrote and directed most of the first season but was canned during the work on season 2 when AMC discovered to its utter horror that making a show like this costs actual money.  Glen Mazzara is responsible for what went on at the farm in season 2 and the prison in season 3.

 

I don't know what it says about me or this particular episode that I have almost no thoughts on it and very little to say about it.  Most weeks I find myself ruminating on the episode quite a lot at least through Monday and Tuesday as I go about things and have no shortage of opinions on various aspects of what I liked and what I didn't.  This week, I'll concur that it was beautifully shot and acted.  Beyond that though, I've just got nothing other than thinking that there's no coming back for Morgan ever if his pet wolf somehow gets loose and kills a member of our team because of some misguided notion about the sanctity of all life.

 

Thank you.  From what I've read, Darabont's contributions were massive (his fingerprints are all over every aspect of the show, that was a direct quote -- but this ended after SDCC 2011 -- he was editing an early S2 ep -- the director had sent him unusable footage so he was trying to salvage it when he was fired).  It was a labor of love for him.  He was the creator of the TWD television show, everyone gives him props for that, and it doesn't take away from Kirkman or GAH or anyone else.  It's just too bad AMC picked it up!  HBO passed because it was deemed too violent.  Oh the irony.

 

Funny how Darabont keeps popping up in this ep thread though.  Must be the expensive outdoor scenes.

 

Am feeling the same way about this episode.  Have not rewatched it.

 

Is Morgan the straw man here? 

[CletusMusashi]

This is a major complaint I have about the show in general and this episode specifically. I wonder if the showrunners and writers are just lazy and falling back on doom and gloom to resolve every problem. For example, how likely is Eastman's back story? It would have been sufficient for him to have had his job but lost his family after the virus began to spread. That story is quite common in the world of TWD (see Jim season 1). It was just ridiculously over the top to include a psycopath who breaks out of jail to kill his family so Eastman puts a cage in his cabin and blah blah blah. It's just too much and too stupid. My fear is that the hoplessness and violence on this show will escalate to such heights that it will become a parody of itself. I've said before that without hope no one would want to survive the apocalypse. Right now there is no hope motivating these characters.

I do think it helps the narrative to give a sound in-story reason for him to have a human-sized cage.

But there are other ways they could have gone about it. For example, he could have been a Sunnydale librarian.

[rab01]

Or least eaten it himself. He forces the kids to give up their meager food and then just leaves it there, but won't kill the wolf who threatens to murder children. Nice.

I read that scene as Morgan trying to keep himself from "clearing" the area by killing them and while he has that internal struggle, they leave him the can and then thank him. He never had an interest in their food and never asked for it. Their "thank you" is what jolted him back to temporary humanity.

 

I don't read Morgan as thinking he's morally superior and while avoiding killing may be partly gratitude/imprinting on Eastman, I think it's more self-defense. If he starts killing people again, he may never come back from it and he's afraid that other people are the same way. This thing about whether some acts take a person "too far" to come back seems kinda trite to me but it's clearly something that the show feels the need to regularly explore (e.g., Rick's lapse into insanity, the Governor's final confrontation with Rick, the cannibals at Terminus, etc.). Morgan is the latest character being used to voice the concern that some things shouldn't be easy to do. It's also clear that his point of view is going to get someone killed at some point (as did Glenn's helping out the weak ASZhats last week) -- but the other point of view gets people killed too. The governor destroyed the prison because he couldn't accept a victory handed to him; Beth got herself killed because she couldn't walk away; Rick would have killed everyone in the hospital at Grady in a doomed attempt to free Beth if he hadn't been talked out of it. Every philosophy leads to death on this show because everything leads to death on this show. That's the crappy circumstance they are in.

 

Somewhat off-topic but that's my beef with people who are always saying that Rick's plans are the worst. They seem terrible because other people go with them and then the bad consequences happen and we see them. I guarantee that on this show any plan chosen would have led to bad results. Like the Walker parade - if they had tried Carter's plan (which Abraham, who has construction experience, rolled his eyes at as soon as it was mentioned) and shored up the quarry defenses, I guarantee that some people would have been killed by walker attacks from the woods while they were building the walls and then the truck would have slipped into the quarry just as they thought they were finishing the last support structures -- because that's what happens in the world of the show.

 

In light of all the death and horror that they live in, the show always comes back to four questions (1) how do you maintain hope in the ZA world, (2) how far are you willing to go to protect your own, (3) Was that the morally right thing to do; and (4) what happens to people who make the hard choices? The show likes to use the people who have lost their families to explore the last of those themes (Rick, Michonne, Carol, Abraham, maybe Sasha, now Morgan).  Each of them have had moments when they were barely human and certainly not functioning "rationally." I'm honestly interested in how many different ways the show can tell that story.  (Maybe Carol also doesn't quite fit that mold but I don't think her killing the two at the prison was actually rational and I don't think her accepting exile was rational either. I think she was still shell shocked. Also, the show doesn't treat women the same way as it treats men.)

Edited November 3, 2015 by rab01

[Iguessnot]

I don't see that at all with regards to Glenn. Glenn seems like someone Morgan should be, ie, a guy who doesn't enjoy killing but sometimes has to as an absolute last resort.

 

 

But if you follow Eastman's philosophy to it's natural conclusion, he had no right to kill that person, he should have just kept trying to rehabilitate him. How is the guy who murdered Eastman's family any different from the Wolves? Morgan's prisoner shows no signs that he wants to change, he just keeps threatening that if he gets out he'll try to slaughter everyone at Alexandria. Pretty much like the guy who slaughtered Eastman's family.

 

 

That only works, as others have pointed out, in isolation. When you're living alone and some random person walks onto your farm or whatever, you can afford to be that generous. But, what if say, a dozen or so of the Wolves showed up at Eastmans? How would he and/or Morgan dealt with that? Redeeming people is a nice idea, but some people just aren't redeemable in this ZA. You'd think Morgan would figure this out after meeting so many of the Wolves and seeing that NONE OF THEM seem to show any remorse or sign that they want to change. You'd think invading Alexandria and attempting to slaughter every man, woman, and child there would have been another clue, but I guess Morgan is needed as an artificial counterpoint to Rick's POV or something.

 

 

I thought it came before. Didn't he start aikido after his daughter gave him the rabbit foot or something?

Yeah, I know he was introduced to aikido earlier, I just didn't see any implication that he used the philosophy at work or even gave it much thought until the apocolypse.

[that one guy]

I only watched this late last night because of how long the World Series game lasted. I liked it, but my favorite episodes are all like "Still" and "Clear" and "the Grove" - character pieces rather than action packed.

I'm always so distracted by how sturdy those little wooden sticks are.

I practiced aikido as a kid and worked with a bo staff for a while. Once I had a sensei who made me cut and sand down an appropriately sized branch before I could practice with it. I still have it somewhere, it's pretty sturdy. It's clear on the show that the actors really didn't train much. 

I can't believe Morgan has a wolf in a house and not telling anyone and letting him live. This will not end well

I know, right? This totally undermines the end of JSS. I thought the whole point of that episode was Morgan not killing and not killing, and then in the last scene that Wolf jumps out and attacks him, and I interpreted what I saw as Morgan finally losing it and killing the guy. I thought the whole episode was built around Morgan bashing that guy's skull in. Knowing now that he didn't kill him sort of takes the grim finality out of that episode and makes it less than it was.

 

I can't remember the killer's name because I kept hearing Bryce Dallas Howard. But I thought they were setting up a Big Bad for next season, so I was surprised the learn the guy was, in fact, dead.

It was nice of Morgan to rescue those hikers. It would have been even nicer to say, "Hey, you guys want a secluded, well stocked cabin with tomato plants and goat cheese? I hear there's gonna be a vacancy soon."

[AndySmith]

He was the creator of the TWD television show

 

One of many, actually. And again, a TV show that is adapted from an already existing piece of work can hardly be called a creation.

 

That would mean we're apparently supposed to believe that Glenn never actually aimed at or hit anyone shooting at him in either attack on the prison or that he went out of his way not to kill anyone when he and Maggie were trying to fight their way out of Woodbury.

 

Yeah, Glenn may not have killed anyone as per the people behind the scenes, but he was probably shooting to kill in all those cases listed above. Glenn may not be as trigger happy as Rick or Carol, but at the end of the day, he knows sometimes there is no other option, and will shoot to kill if he has to.

Edited November 3, 2015 by AndySmith

[Nashville]

That would mean we're apparently supposed to believe that Glenn never actually aimed at or hit anyone shooting at him in either attack on the prison or that he went out of his way not to kill anyone when he and Maggie were trying to fight their way out of Woodbury.

Yeah, Glenn may not have killed anyone as per the people behind the scenes, but he was probably shooting to kill in all those cases listed above. Glenn may not be as trigger happy as Rick or Carol, but at the end of the day, he knows sometimes there is no other option, and will shoot to kill if he has to.

Agree, especially when the two Woodbury skirmishes at the Prison are taken into account.

I suppose it's barely possible that on the first skirmish Glenn simply attempted to lay down a suppressing fire to scare off a band of would-be home invaders - but what about the second attack? After Glenn has just seen Herschel beheaded by the Governor, and people with guns are advancing with the intention of killing him and (more importantly) everyone he cares about? We're supposed to believe Glenn isn't shooting to kill under those circumstances?

Tell it to the Marines, because the Navy ain't buying it.

[TV Anonymous]

Most likely the worst episode in the whole series, at least from a viewer's point of view.

While the acting of the actors involved may be good, this episode goes against the flow of the story. The episode is dialogue-heavy while the show is an action show. As well, Morgan is not such a big character in the story to need his background explained to the viewers. In addition, after what happened last week viewers want to see the continuation to know what is going on. This episode puts a weird stop for that momentum. Lastly, 90 minutes is way too long for an episode that does not push the story line ahead.

[magemaud]

Forgive me for asking (probably dumb) questions, but here goes...#1) Did the Pet Wolf Morgan is keeping in the unfinished townhouse say to him (when the Wolves got inside ASZ,) "YOU weren't supposed to be here!" #2) do we know for sure that Wolf was bitten or was he injured in another way which is not necessarily life threatening #3) were they bodies covered up on the floor next to him? 

[JBody]

One of many, actually. And again, a TV show that is adapted from an already existing piece of work can hardly be called a creation.

 

 

Yeah, Glenn may not have killed anyone as per the people behind the scenes, but he was probably shooting to kill in all those cases listed above. Glenn may not be as trigger happy as Rick or Carol, but at the end of the day, he knows sometimes there is no other option, and will shoot to kill if he has to.

 

Re. Darabont: respectfully disagree.  It's not solely my opinion; it's the opinion of many in the industry.  There is a reason why the Oscars have two categories for screenplays, best original and best adapted, after all.  We can take this to the small talk thread if you want to continue as I don't want to derail the thread more than I have with this comment and the one before it.

 

Re. Glenn: agree, in that there is no way he's made this far, in the situations we've seen, without having to kill a live human.

 

General episode commentary: still don't know about this one.  I think I would have enjoyed it much more in an earlier season (3, 4 or 5).  It's not a case of too little, too late but more like too much, too late -- 90 minutes of Morgan?  Earlier would have been preferable to me.  I'm not spoiled on this, but I think it's a repeat pattern of Beth -- build her up, give her her own episodes, in order to try to make the audience care when she dies.

 

On the straw man argument, I don't know if that's a deliberate choice.  The default position in this world for a long time now has been what the Governor told Milton, "In this life now you kill or you die. Or you die and you kill."  Right, got it.  At least most of our characters got it.  Our heroes are killers.  But they're not bad like the Termites, right? 

 

Mary: [Mary begins chuckling] You could have been one of us. You could have listened to what the world is telling you.

Carol Peletier: You lead people here and you take what they have and you kill them. Is that what this place is?

Mary: No, not at first. It's what it had to be. And we're still here.

Carol Peletier: You're not here. Neither am I.

 

Here's not here!

 

And now Show has built up Morgan into a straw man, a person who will not kill no matter what, a position which flies in the face of reality even in the non-ZA world.  Even Cheeseman said he would not let Morgan kill him.  Living as a pacifist doesn't mean you won't protect yourself or your loved ones if need be.  His position and attitude are so far extreme that it is ridiculous and invites contempt for the character, which is happening in the fandom now.  He's been set up to make the Governor's philosophy more palatable, to provide a false counterpoint to it.  I refuse to believe that the reasonable man of season 1 episode 1 is gone.  Somewhere in there, deep down, between a psycho who speared a man through the throat and strangled another with his bare hands, and a Shaolin monk espousing "do no harm to any living being...respect all life, for every life is precious" is the Morgan I remember.  I don't think he's gone for good but as soon as we get him back it's the end for him.

[nachomama]

Oh yeah, Glenn would kill if necessary. When he stole an arm bone from a walker to make a shiv you knew anybody getting in his way was going down. That was freakishly impressive and he would have killed the Governor or anyone. 

[AndySmith]

Re. Darabont: respectfully disagree.  It's not solely my opinion; it's the opinion of many in the industry.  There is a reason why the Oscars have two categories for screenplays, best original and best adapted, after all

 

Yes, but nobody ever credits people in the adapted category as having created or invented the story. Daranbont's work on TWD would fall under the adapted, not original category. But, lets agree to disagree.

 

do we know for sure that Wolf was bitten or was he injured in another way which is not necessarily life threatening

 

I hope not, because if so, that makes Morgan's actions even more irresponsible if he doesn't tell anyone.

[editorgrrl]

#1) Did the Pet Wolf Morgan is keeping in the unfinished townhouse say to him (when the Wolves got inside ASZ,) "YOU weren't supposed to be here!" #2) do we know for sure that Wolf was bitten or was he injured in another way which is not necessarily life threatening #3) were they bodies covered up on the floor next to him?

1.) In "JSS," the Wolf said, "We're freeing you. You're trapped. You need to know, people don't belong here anymore."

2.) We heard Morgan hit the Wolf so hard that many people thought he'd killed him. (Two fakeouts in a row would be a bit much, so I think Glenn is dead.)

3.) Not that I noticed.