S09.E03: Under The Lake

[Tara Ariano]

An underwater base is attacked and the Doctor and Clara have to save the crew and defeat the daunting threat.

[alrightokay]

I liked it!  It reminded me of Classic Who in the best possible ways: the Doctor was dynamic and confident, the Companion was active and supportive but didn't steal the spotlight, everyone worked together to try to solve a mystery/crisis, and the cliffhanger was actually surprising.   Some parts went by a little too fast: how did the Doctor realize that the scratchings in the spaceship were "magnets" or a "song"?  I also didn't understand the short conversation Twelve had with Clara in the TARDIS about her starting a new relationship, etc.--was that to acknowledge that Clara got over Danny a little too quickly?  Was Twelve just trying to convince her not to go back to the base in order to keep her safe?  In any case--that was a fun, well-acted episode that didn't seem to try too hard, and that's why it was so good.

[ApathyMonger]

I also didn't understand the short conversation Twelve had with Clara in the TARDIS about her starting a new relationship, etc.--was that to acknowledge that Clara got over Danny a little too quickly? 

 

I think they're just setting up that she's getting a bit gung ho and rushing into danger, craving excitement, etc. It's probably part of the arc they're setting up for her to leave at the end of the season.

 

Good episode, but I agree on the explanation for the carvings on the ship feeling rushed. I'm definitely looking forward to seeing where they go with it next week.

[HauntedBathroom]

Lovely episode! I love a good buse under seige, and it had a cracking cliffhanger. Can't wait to see the next episode!

[ottoDbusdriver]

It was a good episode overall, but the one thing that was off, aside from the ship carvings, was the Orion's belt lining up with Earth explanation.  Uh, no.  Heck, the 3 stars in Orion's belt aren't even in a straight line -- they only appear to be in a straight line across the sky when viewed from Earth, but the middle star is nearly 50% further away than the other two stars at either end, so they don't line up in the first place.

Edited October 3, 2015 by ottoDbusdriver

[John Potts]

You know, if I was Clara I would be pissed at the Doctor for saying she needs to "Move on" - it's been what, six months since her fiancé died (I mean you could say that that's long enough to grieve, but still...). OTOH, Clara pissed me off with her "cue cards" on how to be a normal person - normally the Doctor replies with some variety of "I haven't got time to be polite, got to save the world!"

 

But despite those gripes, I thought this was great - a real throw back to the Old Series with a base under siege. I floved the moment when the Doctor took control and called back the rescue sub, because it actually made sense that not only would they listen, but he  explained why it would be a terrible idea. And I really liked the "If the ghosts can't get into the cage, why don't we leave and trap them IN here?"

 

The only real let down was the ending because - The Doctor's dead? Really? Even if I believed the BBC might kill off their golden goose, we know there are 10 episodes left in he season. (Plus England lost - badly - in the Rugby World Cup, but at least I had an enjoyable episode of Doctor Who!)

[alrightokay]

The only real let down was the ending because - The Doctor's dead? Really? Even if I believed the BBC might kill off their golden goose, we know there are 10 episodes left in he season. (Plus England lost - badly - in the Rugby World Cup, but at least I had an enjoyable episode of Doctor Who!)

 

I thought this was a good ending because the Doctor can't be dead (at least not for long), so that means the ghosts aren't really ghosts, or, he'll figure out a way to bring them back to life (because he has to come back to life), and I'm eager to find out how.  It's better than the Missy/Clara cliffhanger in "The Magician's Apprentice," where we could figure out pretty easily how they survived the Dalek blasts.

 

I floved the moment when the Doctor took control and called back the rescue sub, because it actually made sense that not only would they listen, but he  explained why it would be a terrible idea.

 

 

That was a great moment--I love that Twelve is done with the self-doubting and thus able to "take charge" this series.

[Lantern7]

So . . . the sonic sunglasses are a thing now? Okay, I can roll with it.

 

I was kinda "meh" about the episode overall. Hard to believe that the Doctor has never met "proper" ghosts, and something tells me he'll still be waiting. And since when does he go back in time to fix a mistake in the present? I will say . . . Dead!Doctor? Spooky.

[benteen]

I enjoyed this episode.  I liked the premise and the setting a lot.  It was definitely a nice callback to the old base under siege stories of the Second Doctor era.  It was also a reminder that the Doctor always seems to run into trouble when a mining company is involved.  The ghosts were creepy and interesting.  Looking forward to Episode 2.

 

I didn't get the purpose of that bizarre Doctor and Clara scene in the TARDIS.  It just reaffirmed the anti-chemistry that 12 and Clara had.  Also, I still want to smash the sonic sunglasses with a hammer.

[Morrigan2575]

I don't like the sunglasses but I'm warming is to Capaldi's Doctor. I liked the storyline, the supporting characters worked for me. I actually liked and cared about them (except the greedy idiot).

Edited October 4, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Starchild]

I think they're just setting up that she's getting a bit gung ho and rushing into danger, craving excitement, etc. It's probably part of the arc they're setting up for her to leave at the end of the season.

I hope so. Maybe it's just me but I find Clara's gleeful delight in the face of other people's lives being in danger kind of unseemly. I wish there were a way to bring Donna back. I can't think of a single incarnation of the Doctor she wouldn't be great with, including this one.

[benteen]

I'm sorry we lost the Captain early on though.  He seemed like he would have been a good character.

[angora]

Color me happy. I love a good base-under-siege episode, and this one is exciting, intriguing, and creepy. The Doctor is fabulous here - his delight at the mystery is infectious.

I'm a sign language interpreter, so I thought it was really neat to see a Deaf character in a leadership position and contributing to the story in important ways. However, I've wondered for a long time about how the TARDIS translates sign language, and it's disappointing to find out the answer is, "Um, it doesn't." No fun. (Also, the Doctor speaks Judoon, Sycoraxic, baby, horse, and dinosaur, but not British Sign Language? Seriously?)

I just can't get over how much better I'm liking the Doctor-Clara relationship this season (and Clara herself).

I'm calling it now - the reason Greedy Businessman Ghost didn't kill the interpreter with the wrench is because Cass didn't let him inside the ship, so he hasn't seen the coordinates. No signal, no point.

Agree that the coordinates = ear worm thing was a little rushed, although I think it would've felt a lot less so if they'd previously mentioned the bit about not being surprised when they learned what they were. They could've had someone questioning how relatively easily Cass was able to lipread an obscure string of words like "The dark, the sword, forsaken, temple," to hammer home that it was strange that she was so sure.

[Autumn]

I liked it too.  The ghosts were creepy and everyone was scared but no one freaked out to the point where they weren't capable of helping.  I liked that they were all like, oh you're from Unit, you must be the Doctor.  Sometimes I like them to get right into the action without having to explain time travel, the Doctor and the Tardis.

 

I was glad to see a deaf character in charge and use her deafness as an asset.  I think the Doctor turning into a ghost was just too cool of an idea for them to pass up.  I agree that the issue isn't will the Doctor stay dead but how did he get that way and what will have to happend to set things right again.

 

I also liked the tone of this one.  Everyone was enjoying having a problem to solve.  Last season was mostly a downer so it is nice to see the Doctor, the companion and the other characters engaged and having a certain amount of fun even if it did seem a bit unseemly.

 

I thought the ghosts looked cool.  The one with the hat reminded me of a character from the Haunted Mansion at Disneyland.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Autumn

[benteen]

One of the Doctor's cards stated "I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN YOU DIDN'T LIVE IN ABERDEEN."  That's a reference to where he accidentally left Sarah Jane after they parted ways.

[Primetimer]

Clara is dressed to hang out with the wrong 1960s-based TV character. Or is she?

Read the story

[ottoDbusdriver]

I'm still kind of confused why the "ghosts" seem to conform to the base's computer-controlled day/night cycle.  If the "ghosts" only come out at night -- and the night time is artificially created, that makes me think that the "ghosts" are also artificially created by something the computer is controlling associated with the artificial daytime/nighttime cycle.  And what that has to do with the alien spaceship and a Victorian-dressed alien "ghost" I have no idea.

[Ripley68]

So on board with the Clara's wardrobe thing. During the episode I said "she needs a new wardrobe person."  Put me with everyone who liked this dynamic. This is the first episode I've felt the 2 of them connecting like a doctor and companion should (and that includes her scenes with 11).  I"m gonna say best Capaldi episode so far.  I've been saying since Capaldi's 3rd episode, Donna would be perfect with this doctor.

[benteen]

From the AV Club review by Alasdair Wilkins...

 

 

It’s very cool that Cass, the de facto leader of the Drum for most of the episode, is deaf, as is actress Sophie Stone. It was also a fun bit of ass-covering on the show’s part to claim the Doctor still needed her sign language translated because he had deleted it in favor of semaphore. I assume it was so he could enjoy this as it was originally intended.

[ganesh]

I thought the whole sign language/deaf commander was really cool. I also liked the subtle intimacy between her and her translator. Though I thought it was ridiculous that the Doctor didn't understand her. I obviously don't think the ghosts are actually dead, nor do I think the Doctor is dead. Clearly, he figured out whatever there was to figure out, and did whatever to himself so he could save the base. Which we'll see all that next week. 

 

I thought the symbols on the ship were clunky. If the TARDIS couldn't translate them; clearly they were important. As soon as we all figured out "the dark" etc., no one made the connection to the symbols? Come on. That shouldn't have taken so long. 

 

I also liked that the Doctor flashed the psychic paper and they were all, "Oh, UNIT, ok!" and he said, "uh yeah." The show kind of missed these little bits imo. 

[Darth Nigel]

Liked this one for reasons as stated above.  Felt like a throwback to the earlier "classic" Who.

The sound mixing is still annoying though; the music and occasional effect noise swamps out the dialog much of the time on my set.  Didn't used to be this bad.

[Llywela]

I hope so. Maybe it's just me but I find Clara's gleeful delight in the face of other people's lives being in danger kind of unseemly. I wish there were a way to bring Donna back. I can't think of a single incarnation of the Doctor she wouldn't be great with, including this one.

Yep - and there's also a weird kind of mismatch going on there, very forced, contrived writing, because the episode opens with Clara being completely tone-deaf to the Doctor's unease, utterly self-absorbed in her desire for an adventure and then gleeful at the thought of finding it, with the Doctor having to remind her that actually stumbling into a dangerous situation where people may have died isn't a good thing...and then they flip-flop completely with the Doctor getting carried away in his excitement and Clara producing actual cue cards for social interaction, which is probably meant to be funny but I thought it horrible. It felt extremely contrived, both scenarios - and makes the characters feel inconsistent. In those kinds of scenes I never feel like I'm seeing how they would naturally behave, but rather feel as if the writing has contorted them into the shape it wants to see in this scene. It feels unnatural to me.

 

I just really, really dislike the writing of these characters, Clara especially. I suspect I'm meant to find her cute. I don't. I find her arrogant and presumptuous and self-important.

 

The story itself was okay, and I liked the guest characters well enough, although I side-eyed hard at seeing a black man killed in the opening sequence for the second adventure in a row. It's the writing of the Doctor and Clara I still don't like, and at this stage I guess I never will. The writing tries too hard, it won't let them simply be.

 

I'm calling it now - the reason Greedy Businessman Ghost didn't kill the interpreter with the wrench is because Cass didn't let him inside the ship, so he hasn't seen the coordinates. No signal, no point.

Yep, I thought that was pretty obvious too, and was surprised no one on-screen made the connection during that interminably long scene where the Doctor was babbling on and on about those wretched symbols, just saying the same thing over and over in slightly different ways - modern-style padding at its most irritating.

 

Edited later because I realised I also meant to reply to these:

I thought this was a good ending because the Doctor can't be dead (at least not for long), so that means the ghosts aren't really ghosts, or, he'll figure out a way to bring them back to life (because he has to come back to life), and I'm eager to find out how.  It's better than the Missy/Clara cliffhanger in "The Magician's Apprentice," where we could figure out pretty easily how they survived the Dalek blasts.

I thought it made for a really poor ending, because since we know the Doctor can't really be dead, it completely undermines any sense of danger and tension the episode has achieved - if the dead aren't really dead, if the victims aren't really being killed, there's less to be afraid of going into the next episode. It's kind of the opposite of a cliffhanger, because it removes the high stakes rather than creating them.

 

One of the Doctor's cards stated "I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN YOU DIDN'T LIVE IN ABERDEEN."  That's a reference to where he accidentally left Sarah Jane after they parted ways.

I know this was just meant to be a funny little in-joke, but I thought it was stupid. Partly because...the Doctor always knew Sarah didn't live in Aberdeen, he thought he was dropping her off in Croydon - he got the landing wrong, not the city. But mainly because...that was a one-off thing that happened in a previous incarnation and was resolved in a different previous incarnation, so there is absolutely no reason Clara would have made him a flash card for it. And he shouldn't need flash cards anyway. Way to dumb the character down and remove any shred of dignity he had left for the sake of a joke.

 

I know this is probably an overreaction, I just really dislike the writing of these characters, and this un-funny 'joke' is indicative of many of the reasons why.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Llywela

[patchwork]

Another double episode, seriously? 

I wouldn't mind but this show's two parters are uneven at best and down right awful the rest of the time.

 

Anyway my usual problems with Clara and Clara/Twelve aside I liked this episode; it had a good mystery and they didn't special episode it too much with having a deaf woman as the leader.     

[ZoqFotPik]

First of all, I thought it was odd that Moran didn't seem to believe in Aliens. There has been what a couple dozen high profile alien attacks/visits in the last 10 years or so. By 2119 it seems crazy that someone would still not believe.

 

 

I'm a sign language interpreter,

Just out of curiosity, how accurate was the translation?

 

 

I'm calling it now - the reason Greedy Businessman Ghost didn't kill the interpreter with the wrench is because Cass didn't let him inside the ship, so he hasn't seen the coordinates. No signal, no point.

Yep, I thought that was pretty obvious too, and was surprised no one on-screen made the connection during that interminably long scene where the Doctor was babbling on and on about those wretched symbols, just saying the same thing over and over in slightly different ways - modern-style padding at its most irritating.

 

This is really my only complaint about the episode because I know next there's going to be this scene where one of the characters puts it together and acts like it was some grand revelation. I'm actually wondering if the deaf woman is actually involved with what is going on and was protecting her translator. She seemed very adamant that he not go into the spaceship. 
 

Another double episode, seriously?
I wouldn't mind but this show's two parters are uneven at best and down right awful the rest of the time.

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that all or at least most episodes this season are two parters.

Edited October 4, 2015 by ZoqFotPik

[ApathyMonger]

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that all or at least most episodes this season are two parters.

 

There's four standalones, but even some of those seem to be linked in a way, given that the episode "The Girl Who Died" is followed by "The Woman Who Lived."

[cardigirl]

This is really my only complaint about the episode because I know next there's going to be this scene where one of the characters puts it together and acts like it was some grand revelation. I'm actually wondering if the deaf woman is actually involved with what is going on and was protecting her translator. She seemed very adamant that he not go into the spaceship. 

 

maybe it's in sign language?  That's why the Tardis can't translate it?  Not spoken.

 

I liked this episode a lot. I enjoyed the scene with Clara and the notecards and wasn't offended one whit by it. The "ghosts" are properly scary (unlike the Daleks) and my attention was kept through the entire show.  Looking forward to next week.

 

However,  there is a HUGE difference in the way we are being shown the Doctor and Clara this season.  I just rewatched Listen, and I loved the dialogue between Clara and the Doctor, and the whole story.  Of course, we'll never get an explanation for Orson (or will we?) because it seems that yet again there is tinkering with Clara's arc.

 

And I am totally agreed on Clara's wardrobe so far this season.  Last season, she was adorable in everything she wore.  People were searching for her clothes online to buy them.  Doubt they will this season.

 

Count me out as someone who would ever want to see Donna back.  Too much screeching for my taste.

[NeenerNeener]

 

Clara is dressed to hang out with the wrong 1960s-based TV character. Or is she?

 

 

Thank you! I was watching the episode and thinking "I had that same outfit in the 5th grade", which was, yes, in the 60s.

I'm old, and trying to learn to deal with it.

 

Still not onboard with the sonic sunglasses.

 

This is the 2nd episode where they've mentioned Danny, if somewhat obliquely. And then BBC America ran the "Listen" episode from last season last night right after the new episode. I wonder if they're going to resurrect Danny somehow so Clara gets her Happily Ever After when she leaves. And thus, Orson Pink and the whole Clara-under-the-young-Doctor's-bed timeline is restored with Danny.

Yuck.

[doesntworkonwood]

So is killing a black guy at the beginning of every episode going to be thing now?

 

In all honesty, the episode wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. It's a fairly simple storyline and as such it's fairly difficult to mess up with the convolutedness that has plagued the show since Moffat started, and I hope that continues into the next episode too. 

 

Clara played less of a role, so I was less annoyed in general. I liked the crew and I felt that they were presented well, and weren't just faded into the background with just one character trait to define them. 

 

There were some stupid things, the cue cards for one. Also the sonic sunglasses need to go, like now. I hope they get destroyed violently in the next episode.

 

I still don't get the twelfth doctor, and I think it's past the point where I ever will unfortunately. Something about the slightly inconsistent writing for him means he hasn't really settled for me. 

[shandy]

Count me happy - I liked this ep. I'm by no means a classic who expert, but channeling some Pertwee never did any harm - and Clara's 60s outfit with 70s colors was made for cosplaying early Jo Grant, just add a fake fur bolero and you're done. Even the doctor deciphering something  with a patently ludicrous explanation was straight out of the era as well. I celebrate that. 

 

Capaldi works very well in an ensemble cast -Malcolm Tucker could work a room of 20 people like a machine gun in 2 minutes, and that same kind of twisty verbose energy is great in a base under siege story, except he's got Clara hobbled to one foot like a 10 ton block of granite.

 

How a multitude would have air guitared if Ghost Clara would have been a-swimming in that lake at the end, even if it would make no sense to the story to have an alive Clara staring back at the thing.

Edited October 4, 2015 by shandy

[angora]

Just out of curiosity, how accurate was the translation?

I'm American and only know American Sign Language, so I can't help you too much. Someone who knows BSL would have a much better idea.

I'm guessing that, at minimum, Cass's lines are all pretty accurate. The actress is Deaf, and she signs with the fluidity of someone who uses it regularly as their primary language. It looked to me like her lines were probably translated holistically, not just given a simplistic sign-for-English-word match. She was also mouthing a little, which probably helped Lunn with stuff like "forsaken" (if BSL is like ASL, I'm guessing that the sign for "forsaken" is used interchangeably with "abandoned," "left behind," etc., but the sign combined with the mouthing would've cued him in to the specific word Cass meant.)

As for Lunn, he was definitely signing less than what was being said. Sometimes, he appeared to sign the first sentence of what someone was saying and then just stop. It looked decently fluid but more simplistic than what Cass is doing. My gut feeling is that the actor probably signs but not well enough to interpret (and certainly not well enough to interpret for a brainy motormouth like the Doctor.)

And for the actual interpreting, a few things stood out to me. First, his voicing was practically right on top of her signing, at times maybe even getting a fraction ahead of her. In general, it seemed there wasn't much of an interpreting lag - Cass would also reply to people the instant they were done speaking, when realistically, Lunn would still be finishing up his interpretation. I guess they didn't want any extra beats breaking up the momentum of the dialogue. It was also a little weird to me that Lunn so often said "Cass is saying..." I could buy doing it once or twice for the Doctor and Clara's benefit, since they're new to the situation, but the rest of the crew seems pretty comfortable with interpreted communication at this point. They address Cass directly instead saying, "Tell her...", so it was odd that, especially in the opening scene before the Doctor and Clara showed up, that he'd interpret at all in third person. (The "That would be me... HER," bit was totally on-point, though. I've had hearing people give me a "great - thanks for sharing" look when I've interpreted, "I have to go to the bathroom," and once when I had a cold and my voice was pretty hoarse, someone asked the Deaf client if THEY were sick.)

Lastly, I appreciated that the lipreading took time and some trial-and-error. Cass was making guessing and then correcting/refining as she continued to watch the ghosts. Nice to show that, even with the coordinates apparently ear wormed in her mind, she couldn't just magically read everything they were saying without the slightest effort.

[benteen]

I'm also continuing to have issues with the audio as the dialogue has been harder to hear and not just because of the accents.

 

About Moran not believing in aliens, this has always been a trait of Doctor Who.  Despite how many alien invasions there have been, the Doctor always seems to find humans present and future who don't believe in aliens or don't even seem to remember alien invasions.  Although yeah, if they are connected to Unit and know who the Doctor is, they should be very familiar with alien invasions.

 

Agreed they dragged out that final scene with the alien symbols too long.

Edited October 4, 2015 by benteen

[marketdoctor]

 

Another double episode, seriously?

 

That was my thought as well.  It's going to be a longer season than I'd like.  I have no problem with episodes that build, but write an ending, especially since this felt to me like Classic Who in one wrong way--it was a little too slow-paced when it was trying to be action.

 

That said I liked the cue cards, and I wonder if they're building to something.

[Mabinogia]

I just really, really dislike the writing of these characters, Clara especially. I suspect I'm meant to find her cute. I don't. I find her arrogant and presumptuous and self-important.

 

This episode I really felt this way about Clara, she just seemed so smug. I would like to fanwank that, as a teacher, she has basically turned the Doctor into one of her students and that's why she looks so proud and boastful when he comes up with things and why she made him flashcards because, apparently, for the past few centuries he's been unable to relate to humans? The fuck? She is NOT cute. However, I adored her little dress this ep. I found it every bit as precious as anything she wore last season so I really don't see a shift in her style at all. She has always dressed like a child to me.

 

As for the actual storyline. I like how excited the Doctor was about seeing a ghost. It makes sense to me that most of what we little humans think of as ghosts have other explanations that the Doctor always figures out. I fear they won't be ghosts and he will once again dispel a supernatural cause for something alien but for his sake I would love it if they were.

 

As for the "ghost" Doctor at the end. I think he made himself that way somehow in order to understand them, since he went on an on this ep about trying to figure them out, what better way than to become one of them. So the cliffhanger, for me, is how does he get himself out of it once he gets his answer.

 

I wish Clara would ditch the school teacher routine with the Doctor but otherwise I really liked this one. I like when there are enough characters that Clara takes a backseat. The harder they try to show how adorable she is the more annoying I find her. I think if they didn't try so hard I might like her more. The actress is charming enough and emotes properly and does everything right it's just the writing is so forced.

[patchwork]

First of all, I thought it was odd that Moran didn't seem to believe in Aliens. There has been what a couple dozen high profile alien attacks/visits in the last 10 years or so. By 2119 it seems crazy that someone would still not believe.

 

Just out of curiosity, how accurate was the translation?

 

This is really my only complaint about the episode because I know next there's going to be this scene where one of the characters puts it together and acts like it was some grand revelation. I'm actually wondering if the deaf woman is actually involved with what is going on and was protecting her translator. She seemed very adamant that he not go into the spaceship. 

 

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that all or at least most episodes this season are two parters.

 

 

There's four standalones, but even some of those seem to be linked in a way, given that the episode "The Girl Who Died" is followed by "The Woman Who Lived."

 

Lovely.

 

Every other episode of Dr. Who doesn't need to be movie length Moffat!

[John Potts]

Alasdair Wilkins It’s very cool that Cass, the de facto leader of the Drum for most of the episode, is deaf, as is actress Sophie Stone.

 

What I loved is that it was such a non-issue. It even turned out actually useful in trying to work out what the "ghosts" were saying - almost gives you hope for an optimistic future.

 

As for the Doctor being dead - well obviously he isn't, but I'm wondering if the bodies might be some sort of projection from the "Temple" which the Doctor locates & uses. I'm instantly suspicious of the "I'll just nip back in time to solve the problem" because it begs the question of "Why not ALWAYS do that?" so TPTB normally come up with reasons why it isn't possible (Fixed Points, Blinovitch Limitations or whatever).

[call me ishmael]

I thought this was relatively fun but what is up with the "Tardis won't go to that part of the ship"? We are supposed to assume there is something there that would frighten the Tardis? It seemed like a silly thing to come up with to justify a two-parter.

[Bruinsfan]

I'm guessing Toby Whitehouse just watched Aliens before writing the episode?

 

I'm a sign language interpreter, so I thought it was really neat to see a Deaf character in a leadership position and contributing to the story in important ways. However, I've wondered for a long time about how the TARDIS translates sign language, and it's disappointing to find out the answer is, "Um, it doesn't." No fun. (Also, the Doctor speaks Judoon, Sycoraxic, baby, horse, and dinosaur, but not British Sign Language? Seriously?)

I thought the Doctor was the one who knew every language, and the TARDIS just telepathically shared that with companions and anyone else in the vicinity? One would think sign language woudn't be any more difficult than speech or dinosaur roars or whatever for it to implant the meaning of into other beings' minds.

 

Clara played less of a role, so I was less annoyed in general. I liked the crew and I felt that they were presented well, and weren't just faded into the background with just one character trait to define them.

I loved that the crew members' concerns were for each other and Special Snowflake Clara's safety wasn't a big worry for anyone. She is far, FAR too used to being the center of attention.

[tv-talk]

Clara and Capaldi are never going to work for me, guess I just have to accept that and stop hoping for something better. I think Capaldi tends to rave on and on a bit too much and Clara is just an absurdly written character. I mean the whole notion of her having no fear or trepidation whatsoever or seeming care that people are dying- for the whole thing to just be a way of fulfilling HER needs ie wanting an adventure etc is pretty lame imo. I also could not stand the cue cards, I mean what is the Doctor now what exactly if he's incapable of speaking with humans?

 

All that griping aside I did like the episode well enough in some ways however I'm almost cringing at thought of parrt2 because the Doctor is "dead." All that is is yet another set-up for Clara to be the Doctor in an episode. I mean clearly 50% of part2 is going to be Clara playing the role normally reserved for the Doctor. I absolutely cant stand that and will not be watching "The Adventures of Clara and not-dead Danny" whenever BBC trots that out in coming years.

 

oh and I believe this has been touched on before here and perhaps this is a very American perspective on things but having a black character killed immediately to start these episodes is very tone deaf. I mean come on, surely the writers get that.

Edited October 4, 2015 by tv-talk

[starri]

I must have been worn down.  I've enjoyed the last three episodes more than I have pretty much any episodes since Moffat took over.  Can we agree that they need to boot him and give the show to Toby Whithouse?

 

There's a reason why the Base Under Siege conceit comes up again and again.  When they're done well (as this has been so far), they just work.

[elle]

I thought this was relatively fun but what is up with the "Tardis won't go to that part of the ship"? We are supposed to assume there is something there that would frighten the Tardis? It seemed like a silly thing to come up with to justify a two-parter.

There has been other times when the Tardis did not want to go where the Doctor wanted to go, since the "fix".  Trenzalore was one, the Tardis also took off when it was on the sinking Soviet sub.  While not consistent, it has happened before.

 

Another double episode, seriously?

I wouldn't mind but this show's two parters are uneven at best and down right awful the rest of the time.

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that all or at least most episodes this season are two parters.

We got spoiled with NuWho having one episode adventures.  Original Who had serials, the Baker episodes have been in three parts. :0)

[Llywela]

We got spoiled with NuWho having one episode adventures.  Original Who had serials, the Baker episodes have been in three parts. :0)

Which Baker episodes are you thinking of in three parts? Most Tom Baker adventures were four episodes, although he also had some 2-part and 6-part serials. Colin Baker's were mostly four or two episodes per serial. The longest ever Doctor Who adventures were The War Games with 10 episodes and The Daleks' Master Plan with a whopping 12 episodes - and technically, Trial of a Time Lord can also be considered all one long story, at 14 episodes (or it can also be thought of as an early attempt at a seasonal arc, since those 14 episodes encompass the entire season, with a long ongoing arc woven around shorter stories). So yeah, although two-parters haven't been common in New Who, they are nothing new for the show as a whole, and are only about the length of the average Classic four-parter, since Classic episodes were 25 minutes rather than 50 for New Who. It's nice to see some longer stories again, with time to breathe. Whether I think they are using that time as effectively as they might is another matter...

Edited October 4, 2015 by Llywela

[benteen]

I'm happy with more two-parters.  They just have to be careful about stretching things out.  Felt the Doctor explaining things at the end was REALLY stretched out.

 

I've said before that the 12 and Clara relationship is toxic, bringing out the worst in each other.  I stand by it.  The weird TARDIS scene was a great example of 12 and Clara's anti-chemistry.

 

Clara handled the "Doctor role" well in Flatline, the best episode of the season.  But yeah, Clara in the lead role is an awful idea.  Especially when she is an average companion at best.

Edited October 4, 2015 by benteen

[alrightokay]

There has been other times when the Tardis did not want to go where the Doctor wanted to go, since the "fix".  Trenzalore was one, the Tardis also took off when it was on the sinking Soviet sub.  While not consistent, it has happened before.

 

The TARDIS also tried to avoid/shake off Captain Jack in Utopia (S3), going all the way to the end of the universe to get away from him (but good thing she couldn't shake him, as Jack was delightful interacting with Ten and Martha).

 

Speaking of Jack and other former Companions such as Donna, I agree with others that it would be fun to see them working with Twelve, as I think their sass would bring something new to the Doctor/Clara dynamic.  I actually wonder if "Under the Lake" and "Before the Flood" were written with a new, naive Companion in mind, since Jenna Coleman was thinking of leaving at the end of S8.  There was really nothing that Clara did in "Under the Lake" that was particular to her except for the cue cards part and the TARDIS conversation about finding a new hobby/relationship--as both of those scenes felt a little shoehorned in, maybe they were added to the script after Coleman decided to stay?  (That might explain how awkward they felt?  I actually liked the jokes in the cue cards, but that moment felt jarring, given how confident and in-charge the Doctor seemed in the rest of the episode.)

[elle]

Which Baker episodes are you thinking of in three parts? 

The ones that BBCA has been showing.   I'm thinking in terms of them being 3 hours long (or 50 minutes).  They are probably as you said longer arcs but shorter episodes.

 

The TARDIS also tried to avoid/shake off Captain Jack in Utopia (S3), going all the way to the end of the universe to get away from him (but good thing she couldn't shake him, as Jack was delightful interacting with Ten and Martha).

I never understood why Ten was so keen on avoid Jack in that episode.  I agree about his interaction with Ten and especially Martha.  I love how he was happy to see her again in "Journey's End".  Martha needed someone like that around!

[ketose]

So, NuWho has been on for almost 10 years, close to half of the original. More and more, I get the sense they ran out of ideas in the second season. They've been trapped on Space stations, submarines, Space stations on Mars with sentient water. It's all variations on a theme. I know original Who had the same aspects, but it had a different rhythm. The last episode was too big, this one is too small.

[clack]

The 22nd century and still no devices that would allow a deaf person to hear and talk? And correct me if I'm wrong, but only one member of her crew can interpret sign language? How can you put someone in charge if she can't communicate with the crew except through a 3rd party, especially in a high-risk situation involving an undersea nuclear reactor? Having a deaf person in authority is a worthy idea, especially if it is to have a plot payoff, and there are ways to make it plausible, but that didn't happen this episode. And I'm so tired of the cliched yuppie, the umpteenth iteration of the Paul Reiser character from 'Aliens'. Ok the guy is in it for the money, but give him one other dimension. Maybe he's the Doctor fanboy?

Edited October 4, 2015 by clack

[tv-talk]

So I took the conversation in the TARDIS to be the doctor telling clara 'hey i'm the doctor, not you." Am I offbase on that? Then he brought it around to looking out for her well being (which hopefully means she is going to die this season) but his initial point was that HE decides if they are going back outside the TARDIS and if a situation is too dangerous etc etc.

 

One thing that has been mentioned here and is the same for me is the very poor sound quality. Is that something only happening on the BBCA broadcast or for everyone? It's very frustrating, even when I rewind numerous times there is some dialogue that is just completely unintelligible. 

 

What is nice about these type of "trapped" episodes is they have nothing to do with a broader Moffat story arc which right now I dont really like. It's nice to have a simple episode at times that does not have gigantic implications for the series and it's entire history. Just the Doctor and a Companion in a tight situation. Capaldi's Doctor has needed more of that and less grandiose rewriting of the series.

Edited October 4, 2015 by tv-talk

[Llywela]

And I'm so tired of the cliched yuppie, the umpteenth iteration of the Paul Reiser character from 'Aliens'. Ok the guy is in it for the money, but give him one other dimension. Maybe he's the Doctor fanboy?

I agree. That character - and a few other aspects of the story - felt very plot-by-numbers. The story has a strong concept, but falling back onto that kind of generic trope is a weakness.

 

One thing that has been mentioned here and is the same for me is the very poor sound quality. Is that something only happening on the BBCA broadcast or for everyone? It's very frustrating, even when I rewind numerous times there is some dialogue that is just completely unintelligible. 

 

What is nice about these type of "trapped" episodes is they have nothing to do with a broader Moffat story arc which right now I dont really like. It's nice to have a simple episode at times that does not have gigantic implications for the series and it's entire history. Just the Doctor and a Companion in a tight situation. Capaldi's Doctor has needed more of that and less grandiose rewriting of the series.

'Base under siege' has been a Doctor Who staple since the '60s, for the simple reason that it works. It's a structure that can easily be overused (as the Troughton era proves), but there are so many possible variations, and it's an easy way of setting up an adventure. I agree that it's nice to have a simpler story without Grand Overarching Plot or Epic Angst muddying the waters. Both Capaldi's Doctor and his relationship with Clara have desperately needed more of that. We need to spend time just hanging out with them on ordinary adventures, getting to know them in the quieter times, so that when the more epic stuff happens we are actually able to care about them for their own sake, because we know them well enough to feel invested, not just because the story tells us that we should or because they are spending all their time yelling dramatically, as has so often been the case. If that makes sense.

 

I found the sound mixing better in this episode - I really struggled with the first two-parter, with Missy especially. Part of that might have been Gomez laying on her Scots accent pretty thick, but as a fellow Celt I don't usually struggle with Scottish accents. I just couldn't hear her properly.

[jaytee1812]

And I'm so tired of the cliched yuppie, the umpteenth iteration of the Paul Reiser character from 'Aliens'. Ok the guy is in it for the money, but give him one other dimension. Maybe he's the Doctor fanboy?

This. When the Doctor threw that guys business card away I flashed back to Silence in the Library when the Doctor and Donna rip up the contracts the rich guy wanted them to sign.

[Ringthane]

I can't believe nobody said anything about the guy's name being Richard Pritchard.  For two reasons - 1) it just sounds hilarious, and 2) the shortened, more common version of Richard that summed up the guy's character nicely. 

 

One thing about Capaldi - his Doctor is sure good at insulting you.  His asides ("I understand - you're an idiot", "Why is this man still talking to me") were perfect.  I think this Doctor has finally come into his own, now that he doesn't have to be one-third of a love triangle.  And I thought it was interesting that he had the flashcards, especially since it seemed like Clara was the one who wrote them, and she was also the one with all the post-its last season with all the things she needed to tell Danny.  She seems to need to write things down in order to function properly.