S03.E10: ...And The Woman Clothed In Sun

[TVHappy9463]

At this point we have moved into remake of Manhunter/Red Dragon territory. I will see this thru, because I need my Mads fix. But I am glad it didn't get renewed, it has no where to go as long the rights to Clarice are hung up.

[Captanne]

My only eyebrow quirk at the Scientology line was that it seemed out of place.  It immediately made me wonder where the Quinto character was from and what he was doing seeing Dr. Du Maurier.  The show is set in Baltimore and Scientology reeks of LA and Hollywood.  

Edited August 9, 2015 by Captanne

[jeansheridan]

When I lived in Boston, there was a big Scientology center.  I don't know about Baltimore.  The line just cracked me up.  Made me wonder if Quinto ad-libbed it and they liked it.  I really don't know how much leeway actors are allowed.  I get the feeling the lab guys get to riff a bit and what works, they keep.  Like when they knocked Hannibal around during an autopsy.  That little bit of physical humor seemed oddly organic and something comic actors would figure out.

 

Which reminds me.  If you ever watch the extras, Hugh Dancy is a big old klutz!  He falls ...a lot. 

[thuganomics85]

Yikes!  Bedelia is back and she's just going to let her freak flag fly, at least when she's around Will.  She doesn't give a damn what he knows about her.  And while she's no Hannibal, she's clearly a fucked up person, who has no issues continuing to use her "capture" as a means for fame and speeches.  And then there was what really happened with her former patient.  Nicely done, show.  Once you cast Zachary Quinto, I thought for sure he would be a perfect psycho, so instead, he was actually a rational person who was apparently the only person who could see what Hannibal (and Bedelia) were.  But he chokes on his own tongue (did that have something to do with whatever Hannibal did to him with the lights), and then Bedelia tries to help, but then just kills him instead.  Damn. That whole thing was crazy.  It was only a few minutes of screen time, but Zachary left an impression to say the least.

 

I also loved all the Will/Bedelia stuff, and how she is bringing out the sarcastic Will Graham.  I love that they both have a lot of similarities when it comes to their relationship with Hannibal, but they have enough differences that it is easy to see why they are at odds with one another, and think they are the superior one.  I know we only have a few episodes left this season (or series, sadly), but I hope they keep crossing paths.

 

Francis continue to be awesome.  I've been enjoying Richard Armitage in general as Francis, but he's now passed "the test", as far as I'm concerned, now that he got a face-off against Hannibal/Mads, and held his own.  But he's bringing the perfect amount of creep to this role.  What he did to the painting was crazy, although if its true that he was eating it to stop killing, I wish they explained it better.  I had assumed he was eating to go full Red Dragon or something.

 

I still think Rutina Wesley is great as Reba, but I still find her relationship with Francis kind of rushed.  I'm not against the idea, but they only met last week, and here they are already doing things like her calling him "D" and him taking her on a date to pet a tiger (reasonable dating strategy, of course!)  And they've already got their artsy sex scene out of the way too.  I think Jack is the only character on this show who hasn't gotten an artsy sex scene yet....

 

Hannibal was kind of in the background in this one, but I still love how he's basically a caged animal, plotting his way out, but in small ways, showing that he isn't use to being in this spot.

 

Really getting annoyed that NBC isn't showing previews anymore.  I can understand their reasons for cancellation, but this just feels like a cheap shot.  At least this time it was for the show about a naked, tattooed Jaimie Alexander, instead of the one where Wesley Snipes in a con artist or whatever the hell he's suppose to be.

[LittleIggy]

I still don't see how Bedelia could get her entire arm down that guys throat. At the very least her arm would be torn up by his teeth. I found the first half of the episode boring.

BTW, from some angles Richard Armitage and Raul Esparza (I miss Chilton!) look so much alike.

[LittleIggy]

What is it that Hannibal did to the phone to get to an operator? It looked as if he used a gum wrapper.

[raven]

 

My problem with Bedelia's she's so unemotional and her dialogue's so stilted. She was much more interesting during season two. She's irrelevant and reminds me of the first half of this season's Will. But...I'm loving Will now!

ITA.  I get that she's supposed to be choosing her words but she's so robotic, it doesn't work for me.  Her "extreme acts of cruelty" line is one of things that sounds good on paper but in reality is BS, the thing you tell yourself to justify your monstrosity.  I didn't want you to suffer!  No, you either wanted to be the one to kill/crush/insert death metaphor here  because 1) you're curious to see what if feels like or or 2) the suffering was annoying you or 3) both.  As someone noted above, I also thinks she sleeps just fine at night because she doesn't question what she's done or didn't do.  The scene with Quinto, whom I liked very much here, it was nice to see a "regular" person call out the two person cult - though if he had so many issues with Hannibal's therapy, why go to someone referred by him - was played somewhat arbitrarily with her first trying to save him so we could see that she really is like Hannibal once you peel back the veneer of humanity.  Excuse the run on sentence.  I'm not really sure why she's still here.  Will could have had a similar conversation with Alana or Jack; they're all complicit in Hannibal not getting the death penalty.

 

I enjoyed the "therapy" scene between Dolarhyde and Hannibal.  Since I haven't read the books and have only seen SOTL, it's fascinating for me to watch Hannibal manipulate someone so damaged, and Mads was again so good here - portraying professional interest yet subtly goading (and over the phone too!)  Interesting also how Hannibal doesn't really respond to flattery.  Maybe he expects it. 

 

I also thought the tiger scene was beautiful. Who wouldn't want to stroke the sleeping tiger? She puts her hand right to the tiger's mouth and comes out safely.  To me, it seemed Dolarhyde thought she would be repelled or scared and pull away but she didn't, she became more emotional at the vulnerability, which causes him to really focus on her.  Though they are moving a bit fast, I accept it as two lonely people (well, one's a psycho) connecting because they are different (real and perceived) to other people. Fuller's trying here, with soft lighting and music, beautiful surroundings; the courtship viewed through Fuller's lens is more touching than the actual sex though. Back to harsh music and weird imagery.  Still we get bonus shots of Armitage wearing only underwear, I'm all for it.  I wish we hadn't spent so much time in Italy and could have had more time with them.  That reminds me, I guess Dolarhyde has money?  That's quite the house. 

 

Will and Dolarhyde, face to face!  He must now be all over the cameras at the museum.  Plus fingerprints.  He should be trackable.  Will, Hannibal is suggesting clues for you.  Please hide your own family.

 

The real tragedy - the painting!!!  *pained over its destruction* Thanks to everyone for explaining why Dolarhyde would do such a thing and why the urgency. 

Edited August 9, 2015 by raven

[saber5055]

You could see the tiger breathing in one shot.

 

 

Or, more likely, the orange tiger-striped stuffie moving up and down to give the illusion it was a real tiger.

[Captanne]

Was the colour of the tiger side closeup off?  It looked almost like orange Fanta to me.  (Sort of took me out of the moment but that might have just been my television.)

Edited August 9, 2015 by Captanne

[WearyTraveler]

From the Red Dragon movie with Ralph Fiennes I remember a scene where he was yelling at the Dragon something along the lines of: "No, not her, you can't have her!" referring to Reba.  What I can't remember is if this happened before or after the he ate the painting.  I think it happened before, thus indicating to the viewer that Dolarhyde was trying to kill the dragon in order to keep Reba.

 

Is that scene also in the books?

 

The tiger changed color during the scene.  I think it was done as a prelude to Reba being bathed in orange light, meaning I think it was completely intentional.

 

For the record, I'm glad they appear not to have used a real tiger. No matter how well they treat them, tigers trained for our entertainment are still caged, wild animals that, IMO, should be left alone in the wild (/steps down from soapbox).

[BookWoman56]

YES! Who talks like that? My problem with Bedelia's she's so unemotional and her dialogue's so stilted.

I have assumed for a while that Bedelia's demeanor and precise enunciation are a coping mechanism she uses both for her profession in general and her life post-Hannibal. She seems to very deliberately project a completely flat affect, precisely because doing so means nobody (including Hannibal) can discern what her actual emotional/psychological responses are to any given situation. When she remarked to Will about his passion with Hannibal, that remark seemed to point directly to the contrast between her and Will; she does not display any passion, and it's very likely that seeming dispassionate kept her alive. It would be obvious to Hannibal during their time together that she wasn't going to panic and call the cops, etc. She seemed to have a more normal affect in her scenes with Zachary Quinto, which again implies to me that after that event, she chose to maintain the icy calm as a protective shield. FWIW, I've known a few psychiatrists socially who also use the flat affect technique in their therapy sessions; doing so prevents the patients from feeling that the psychiatrist is horrified/shocked/disapproving of what the patient says, and there are also patients who go into those sessions trying to provoke an emotional response from the psychiatrist. Using the completely detached, cold demeanor circumvents that process and can get the patient to stop playing that particular game.

 

I also thought that Quinto's seizure/episode was something that Hannibal had programmed him for, as a test for Bedelia. She did at first seem like she was trying to help him; she said something about needing to clear an airway, IIRC. But whether she accidentally or intentionally contributed to Quinto's death is to me irrelevant; she would have realized instantly that Hannibal had set her up. She knows herself well enough to know that she does have the impulse to crush, but she also seems to keep that impulse in check. In many ways, she's probably safer if Hannibal regards her as a fellow sociopath; as long as he finds her interesting, he's less likely to kill her. Nor do I blame her for using her experiences to get paid for presentations; if I had Hannibal even slightly interested in me, I'd be putting together all the cash I could to prepare numerous fake identities and contingency plans for his inevitable escape from prison.

[dargosmydaddy]

What I didn't get was why, if the patient distrusted Hannibal so much (and rightfully so), he would have gone to a psychiatrist that Hannibal referred him to...

[Captanne]

Oh -- the orange Fanta colour was intentional?  Go figure.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

The Hand That Feeds You / The 'healing' power of touch in Hannibal.

[roomtorome]

I guess I am a philistine, my favorite is Manhunter out of all of them and I remember that tiger scene more than 90% of anything else in it.  

 

It was not stylized to death like this show (which I can barely sit through any longer) but it was definitely interesting and held my attention and stayed with me after I saw it. 

 

Bedelia is intolerable for me - her speaking cadence is like nails on a chalkboard; can you imagine someone in your life talking like that - it would drive me mad.  

 

Biggest issues for me - I don't give a rats ass about any of these people, not Will, not Hannibal, not loony Bedelia - none of them and usually I need at least one character I care about, even a little.  

 

I guess the upshot is that we are all crazier than imaginable but just some of us, more so than the next….

[MisterGlass]

I thought the tiger color change was distracting.  I liked the simplicity of the version in Red Dragon.  Along the same lines, NBC - it would be great if you could stop putting up those in-show previews that cover a third of the screen.  That makes me more antagonistic to your coming line-up, not more interested.

 

Slovenly Muse makes a good point about the murky motivation for eating the painting.  Because we've skewed so close to previous versions up to this point I've assumed the motive was the same as in those instances, but given the vision of Reba and the twists we've seen in the past, things could turn out differently.  Actually, part of me is waiting for a twist.

 

 

Now maybe if a psychiatrist like Bedelia could've gotten to him first but I doubt he would've gotten professional help from anyone.

 

Given Bedelia's behavior in this one I'm not sure what she would have done with Francis.  He has weak spots, but certainly is not a weak person.  I agree he would have been resistant to treatment.  Though he seems to have benefited from professional help in the form of speech therapy at some point, he was probably compelled to go as a child.  I wonder if Bedelia would have passed him on to Hannibal.  I wonder if she sent him patients she thought would interest him.  Hannibal would have helped him become.  Chilton would have made money on him.  Alana might have helped.

 

I suppose Quinto insisted on a referral from Hannibal and then went to Bedelia assuming that she would be a responsible psychiatrist.  They may not have had more than two sessions together, and he may have wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt.  As described in the comments above he seems to have been a regular guy, and could not have imagined the depths of Hannibal's duplicity.  He probably saw malpractice at best, not the true depth of what Hannibal would do.  He expected the system to work.

[Lostinthehouse]

A famous poem by William Blake (coincidence?  I think not.) goes:

"Tiger, Tiger Burning Bright

In the forests of the Night

What immortal hand or eye

Could frame thy fearful symmetry . . . "

 

Although in "Manhunter" and "Red Dragon" we didn't see the tiger burning bright, we did see this in the episode with Reba and the tiger.  In this episode, the tiger seems glowing ("burning bright") bright orange as Reba gets closer.  Later, we see her "framed" in symmetry with this tiger - in orange and glowing.  A most beautiful presentation.

 

And when/where does Dolarhyde hide before he kills?  In the deep woods ("forests") behind the homes of his victims.  Does he see himself as William Blake's tiger, as well as Blake's Red Dragon?  Maybe not presented as such by Thomas Harris, and maybe over analyzed by me (an English major who sees metaphor in everything.) - but this is my interpretation.

 

Why take Reba to "see" an anesthetized tiger?  As a way to show her himself, in one of his personas - the Tiger Burning Bright.  (BTW - it was indeed a real tiger, chest rising and falling with breaths, eyes partially closed with the nictating  membrane clouding them, mouth slack from anesthesia.)

 

Although I liked the tiger episode best in "Manhunter", this certainly was a fine presentation.

[Neurochick]

Was the colour of the tiger side closeup off? It looked almost like orange Fanta to me. (Sort of took me out of the moment but that might have just been my television.)

It wasn't just you. The tiger looked fake to me, like stuffed fake.

[DeadlyEuphoric]

I have a feeling the "Dolarhyde eating the painting" bit is supposed to leave the viewer confused, and add to the feeling of "this is an unstable, psycho character" and will be explained next episode when Will & FBI team or Will & Hannibal are talking about the encounter, and give us their understanding of why Dolarhyde did that...

 

I am still not feeling Dolarhyde and Reba/Dolarhyde much, and continue to think Red Dragon (the movie) did a much better job with the writing of the character and the relationship. I don't feel sympathy for this Dolarhyde at all, he is too creepy and too inhuman and too crazy for me to connect to. Movie Dolarhyde felt more human. I look at this Dolarhyde and I think "he is disturbed". I look at movie Dolarhyde and I would think "he is a tortured". Makes for a difference.

I did like how Dolarhyde saw Reba as "the woman clothed in the sun", with that dress and all. Nice touch, that one.

 

When Will was listening into Bedelia's lecture, his body language reminded me of Pilot Will and how he found the whole debacle of the victims' pics being distributed to the press, and the news Freddie made using those pics, as "distasteful". I thought he was feeling and thinking the same thing watching Bedelia put on that show, which is why he was being as snarky and antagonistic towards her as he does with Freddie usually. He was upset. Later on during their "session" scenes he seems to be calmer and so less antagonistic. Maybe, just maybe part of the reason for his attitude towards Bedelia is resentment that she got to live the life he (and Abigail) were supposed to leave, and enjoy the best of Hannibal without getting hurt, but to be honest I don't think Will is necessarily jealous of other people's relationships with Hannibal as he knows he is the number one obsession of Hannibal and nothing else compares. Hannibal made that rather clear. So I think his reaction to Bedelia has a lot to do with him thinking she is a horrible nasty person, rather than anything else.

 

Bedelia is right to point out that her relationship with Hannibal isn't anything like Will's is. Will and Hannibal were friends and Will cares for Hannibal and loves him (even if he wishes he didn't). And Hannibal in turn cares for and loves Will in his own way. I don't think Bedelia likes anyone or anything other than herself. Her interest in Hannibal was rather professional and one of personal curiosity, I don't think she ever cared for him, she only cared for what she could get out of him. Bedelia is stone cold, and I think her slow "every word is calculated and you know it" speech reflects that. I don't think she has any real friends, and I don't think she wants or needs any friends. In a way, she makes Hannibal look more human...

 

 

I must say I didn't get the whole "you couldn't save Hannibal so now you want to save Dolarhyde" comment she made to Will. I am sure Will wishes Hannibal wasn't a murderer and a cannibal and rather just "normal" and that they could be friends with no trouble, but I don't remember him being in a mission to "save Hannibal". He tried to put Hannibal behind bars, and he tried to kill the guy. There never was a "must save Hannibal's soul/solve his psychological problem" etc. etc. kind of thing going on. And I don't get the feeling he wants to save Dolarhyde. He wants to save the families, he wants to stop Dolarhyde. Nowhere in there did I get the impression he wanted to save the poor, misunderstood, troubled soul of Francis Dolarhyde.

 

I also must wonder if Bedelia's "next time instead of trying to save them, just kill them" advise to Will is more about influencing him to kill Hannibal, as she would want Hannibal dead now he is of no further use to her and is threatening her life.

 

And you know Hannibal must be going crazy with boredom if he is trying to pass time by trolling Bedelia during holidays with his cards containing recipes, which, btw, is AWESOME. Ahahaha go have yourself some fun, Hannibal, and if there ever was a person who deserved to be trolled, it is Bedelia.. You know she is just exasperated and opens each card with her eyes already rolling.

 

 

Will was giving some intense "psycho" stares during that talk with Hannibal ,and then we get that "Will's reflection and Hannibal combine" scene. Dark!Will are you making a comeback? One session with Bedelia was enough to push him over the edge?

 

 

I didn't have a problem with Hannibal making the phone call scene. I assume he'd have the right to have private talks with his lawyer (at least) and as the phone was a special jail phone supposedly designed to not allow inmates make calls (as no keypad to dial or anything) they wouldn't have a reason to stay with the inmate to make sure he is not calling someone else. Hannibal knowing how to hack into that phone and call someone else just further proves his own cunning and brilliance.

Edited August 10, 2015 by DeadlyEuphoric

[Snookums]

Oh -- the orange Fanta colour was intentional?  Go figure.

 

 

Yeah, they did it to match Francis's description of it as the orange being so bright it was bleeding into the air around it. It was to highlight the path he wants to take with Reba, he a tyger tyger burning bright and she clothed in the sun, and contrast it to the Great Red Dragon, whom he used to worship but is now seeing as a false deity.

[jeansheridan]

 

I must say I didn't get the whole "you couldn't save Hannibal so now you want to save Dolarhyde" comment she made to Will. I am sure Will wishes Hannibal wasn't a murderer and a cannibal and rather just "normal" and that they could be friends with no trouble, but I don't remember him being in a mission to "save Hannibal". He tried to put Hannibal behind bars, and he tried to kill the guy. There never was a "must save Hannibal's soul/solve his psychological problem" etc.

I agree.  I think when Will tried to save that brain damaged guy (the horse dude), that was obvious.  He also wanted to help Abigail and more or less rejected the idea she helped her father (was that ever resolved?  Does Will know how involved she was ultimately?).  And he definitely wanted to save Hannibal's life before Hannibal gutted him.  I don't think his extreme empathy and compassion would allow him to want Hannibal's death.  I'm still a bit baffled about his attack in Florence.  That startled me. 

 

Not sure how Will felt about Mason Verger.  I suppose that could fall under "righteous violence".  But I actually don't think Will would have killed Mason just to kill him.  He would have killed him to get away or protect Margot and Alana or save Hannibal, but not kill him just to kill him.  So yeah, Bedelia is right.  Will ain't a killer.  And I love her for saying that with just a hint of pity/eye-rolling.  You ain't the badass you think you are, Will Graham.  Hee. 

 

So yeah, I think Will wants to just stop Francis, but not save him.  Or maybe saving/stopping is the same thing for Will.  He definitely identifies more with the killer than the victims, although I think this is the first time we've seen him imaging himself standing with the victims while they were alive and happy.  Now that he knows what a family feels like, he can relate perhaps. 

 

Damn, I do wish he would pick up on Hannibal's hints.  But why on earth would Frederick have Will's real address?   I think it would be funny if Francis showed up the wrong place (hopefully abandoned place).

[Madding crowd]

I think Dolarhyde's story is not being portrayed well because the show is spending too much time on things like Bedelia's very long and robotic speech to Will. No human being on earth speaks like that, even psychiatrists. I also don't know why/how Will always has time to listen to long and involved tirades from people.

 

I could buy a friendship and hope for romance between D and Reba, but him sweeping her up in his arms and carrying her up the stairs in such a macho way seems totally out of character for Francis. Francis seems very fragile and unsure of himself. I agree the scene where he ate the painting was ambiguous. 

Edited August 10, 2015 by Madding crowd

[Anela]

Will needs to put on weight, or something, so that he isn't flung around like a doll. He did get up really fast, though.

 

What did Hannibal say, in regards to Freddie? 

[Cutty]

I was expecting more from Fuller on the Red Dragon story than just a straight adaption of the book. I fail to see how this stuff is any better than the two films that have covered it already. The fan fic aspect is what I love most about this show. Not a fan of this arc so far.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Cutty

[Captanne]

I'm enjoying another version of the Red Dragon arc -- I think it's the most interesting the show has been.  I loved series one and two but found it went down the wrong pike by trying to do "serial killer of the week" and outdoing the weirdness each time.  By focussing on one killer, the show is stronger -- in my opinion.

 

I liked Dolarhyde scooping up Reba because -- if anything -- Red Dragon is giving him a sense of power and agency.  In his own "lair" (comfort zone of home) and with a woman he is starting to view as a Goddess (the tiger scene and the orange Fanta "becoming" for Reba in his eyes) he would feel righteous.  Especially in that moment because Fuller keeps telling us sex is something to be viewed through a Carnival Funhouse Mirror.  

[pasdetrois]

Ugh, I hated Gillian Anderson's affected speech and ended up FFing through her scenes. Well, except for when she jammed her hand down her patient's throat. It wasn't the horror of that that held my attention, it was the fact that she was able to express an open-mouthed scream despite all the Botox.

 

Hannibal is positively reptilian when they light MM from below.

 

And Hannibal's jaunty little banter with the telephone rep made me laugh.

[sluggish neko]

Funny, I thought Gillian Anderson's speech pattern was somewhat similar to how she talked on the X-files and she just forgot which set she was on. After all, Hannibal addressed his trolling letters to the FBI... Scully/DuMaurier, eh, whatever. I did think Bedelia's advice to Will was meant to be helpful. Look how scar-free she is! I don't understand how Will does not at least carry a taser with him at all times whenever Hannibal is involved. After all he's been through, he should expect some kind of bodily harm whenever Hannibal points him to something.

 

I wonder if Fuller has an ongoing bet with the directors to see how artsy fartsy they can make the sex scenes? I know they try reeeally hard (and I like both actors), but I don't see the chemistry between Francis and Reba. It's about as convincing as the Hannibal/Alana coupling.

[Crossbow]

Finally saw this episode. Bedelia's like, "Hey, I only PRETENDED to be Hannibal's wife - you actually WERE."

 

Eating the painting: It was clear in the books, so I thought it was clear in the show but I may have been imagining it: He eats the painting because it will help him become the Red Dragon. I believe it was the last step.

 

Yes, I think the tiger was a deliberate Blake reference. And tallyawhat, my favorite Blake painting is "Ghost of a Flea," which Harris never worked into the story but if Fuller manages it I will love him forever.

 

Reba: I think she is there to show us what Dolarhyde could have been. If she'd met him before he started killing, maybe everyting would be different.

 

I hated the sex scene. Not as much as I hated the Buzby Berkley sex scene with Alana and Margot but I hated it. In fact, stop showing me sex that doesn't involve Mads Mikklesen, plzthx.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Crossbow

[Captanne]

Wait a minute -- I'm confused.  I thought the books said eating the painting was a way of stopping his transformation because he's suddenly in lurve.  

 

It makes more sense to me that it his is way of completing the transformation.

 

But....we've had conflicting analyses here.

 

(I haven't read the book in years so I'm no authority.)

 

Does anyone know for sure which it is?  The show certainly didn't tell us.

[Bruinsfan]

Or, more likely, the orange tiger-striped stuffie moving up and down to give the illusion it was a real tiger.

Yeah, maybe it's because I spent an afternoon last week at a big cat sanctuary watching dozens of real live tigers up-close, but the "tiger's" stripe pattern didn't look at all like a real animal to me. I get that the blistering flourescent orange was an intentional post-production effect, but it was other aspects that made it look about as much like a real animal as Salem on Sabrina the Teenage Witch.

 

I don't feel sympathy for this Dolarhyde at all, he is too creepy and too inhuman and too crazy for me to connect to. Movie Dolarhyde felt more human. I look at this Dolarhyde and I think "he is disturbed". I look at movie Dolarhyde and I would think "he is a tortured". Makes for a difference.

Ditto. Fiennes' portrayal made you understand how someone could view Dolarhyde as a sad loner if they had no clue about his nocturnal killings, but every time Armitage interacts with other people I'm wondering how they can avoid flinching away in instinctive terror and revulsion.

[Desperately Random]

Wait a minute -- I'm confused.  I thought the books said eating the painting was a way of stopping his transformation because he's suddenly in lurve.  

 

It makes more sense to me that it his is way of completing the transformation.

 

But....we've had conflicting analyses here.

 

(I haven't read the book in years so I'm no authority.)

 

Does anyone know for sure which it is?  The show certainly didn't tell us.

I re-read the book about a year ago and the reason that Francis ate the painting was to vanquish the Red Dragon. Or at the very least have power and control over it. He knew the Dragon wanted Reba and he ate the painting so he could save her and continue to have her in his life without her being in danger from the Red Dragon. It was never for Francis to complete his transformation into the Red Dragon (not in the book anyway.) I don't know what Fuller is going to do but either reason could work as long as Francis did it in order to protect Reba. . We have seen that Francis has come to care about Reba and doesn't want any harm to come to her, so at this point in the story, either explanation could make sense depending on how Fuller wants to explain Francis' thought process regarding eating the painting.

[Captanne]

Thanks!!  :-)

[Crossbow]

OK, he eats it in chapter 41, but it doesn't say why. It does give him a feeling of power and freedom: "He could choose anything." In chapter 44 he thinks that now that the dragon is in him, he can choose not to kill Reba. My intrepretation is that he doesn't want to stop killing, he just wants to control it instead of being controlled by it.

 

"He did not have to worry about feeling Love for Reba. If he felt Love for her, he could toss the Shermans to the Dragon and ease it that way, go back to Reba calm and easy, and treat her well."

Edited August 10, 2015 by Crossbow

[Desperately Random]

OK, he eats it in chapter 41, but it doesn't say why. It does give him a feeling of power and freedom: "He could choose anything." In chapter 44 he thinks that now that the dragon is in him, he can choose not to kill Reba. My intrepretation is that he doesn't want to stop killing, he just wants to control it instead of being controlled by it.

 

"He did not have to worry about feeling Love for Reba. If he felt Love for her, he could toss the Shermans to the Dragon and ease it that way, go back to Reba calm and easy, and treat her well."

Yes, the bolded part explains that Francis wanted to have power and control over the dragon. He did not eat the painting as part of his transformation.  Eating the painting was never part of his plan. It was a spur of the moment decision to keep Reba safe from the dragon but had nothing to do with his transforming into the dragon.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Desperately Random

[Captanne]

Wouldn't it be nice if we could have understood this from the series?  *sigh*

 

(See, to me it looked like he was trying to speed up his transformation.  But that doesn't jibe with his falling in love with SunLady.  You'd think he would want to halt the progression.  Unless he thinks she's already becoming the Sun and he's falling behind her transformation?  OY.)

[Desperately Random]

True. The ones who have read the book had an understanding of that scene based on their knowledge of the book (and/or the movies if they have seen them.) Those that don't have that information are seeing it fresh and making their own interpretations based on the (little) they have seen of Francis's motivations regarding Reba and the Red Dragon. Those reasons could be very different depending on the viewer. I am hoping that the show makes the reason why Francis did this more clear in the next episode. I'm sure we'll hear from Hannibal, giving his opinion on why Francis felt the need to destroy the painting by eating it.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Desperately Random

[blixie]

 

but him sweeping her up in his arms and carrying her up the stairs in such a macho way seems totally out of character for Francis.

 

I think that was an example of him attempting to "integrate" the confidence of the Dragon while still feeling human in her "eyes". And whatever I find those two SMOKIN hot together and oozing chemistry that's filling in the gaps to much of Dolarhyde's story. I'm actually loving this take on him because he's exactly as creepy weird as he was in the book (especially his physicality the twisting body, head and teeth snapping). I do think his eating the painting wasn't laid out well enough, and the story has felt rushed, but you know we needed to spend a lot of time on SNAILS, because why not? I think it's a bit down to the fact that Hannibal isn't in Red Dragon a lot, he's a minor character in the movie and only slightly more important in the book, but the TV show and it's fans are obsessed with/demand Will/Hannibal interaction, so we're getting continued story about them, vs. fully committing to the story of Dolahyde and Will's pursuit of him independent of Fancy Cannibal.

Edited August 10, 2015 by blixie

[Captanne]

Plus, it's tricky because, well, technically, the show is called Hannibal and Hannibal simply isn't much in Red Dragon.  (You make a good point, blixie.)

 

Also, snails.  LOL

[Fen]

Loved Bedelia/Will scenes. I like it when Will is being bitchy. His silences do say a lot though. He DID miss Hannibal, he just can't help himself. Bedelia pretty much told Will to kill Dolarhyde when he gets the chance. She sure encourages people to kill other's a lot. She was also encouraging Hannibal to kill Will.  I did like that she asked if Molly knew how intimate Will was with Hannibal. I assume "She knows enough", is code for "nope, not at all, as if I'd tell her, I can't even really admit it to myself yet".

The story of how Bedelia killed her patient was a let-down

 

Will is the pissiest bitch in town when he's being challenged in any way: Freddie, Bedelia - he does not like it at all.  Especially when - like you say, she was hitting the mark so often.

 

Bedelia - 'Does she know how intimate your relationship with Hannibal was?'

Will - 'She knows enough'

 

So, that's a big 'no', then, Will?  Given that he told Hannibal he even preferred not to use his first name, I'm having a really hard time imagining that he's had anything like a reasonably frank discussion with Molly.  I'm also not finding it particularly likely that she knows about Randall Tier, and exactly how Will killed him - because I can't see her being happy to have her son in the same house as the man who did that.

 

Another episode going by without either Molly or Walter also seems risky in building up viewer investment in this relationship - for me, anyway.  I've barely seen Will and Walter interact, and although I've seen Molly and Will talk - each conversation had important gaps in it where it seems like Will has been stinting with the details.  I can't tell if this is deliberate or not.

 

I like some of Bedelia's stuff, but I do find her delivery very slow and stilted.  I know it's intentional - but it can be aggravating.

 

DesperatelyRandom said:

 

 

True. The ones who have read the book had an understanding of that scene based on their knowledge of the book (and/or the movies if they have seen them.) Those that don't have that information are seeing it fresh and making their own interpretations based on the (little) they have seen of Francis's motivations regarding Reba and the Red Dragon.

 

I feel like I'm relying pretty heavily on book and previous adaptation knowledge.  This season has felt gappy at several points for me.  I'm an Eng Lit person, over-analysing and extrapolating from nothing is the norm for me - but some stuff really has required heavy lifting.  I think Chiyoh is a good example of this.  I can come up with some explanations for her presence, but they take work, and are far from explicit. 

 

I miss earlier seasons where the trippier sequences were clearly demarcated as Will empathising, or hallucinating - not just par for the course.  There needs to be more grounded stuff amidst all the madness.

[Neurochick]

I liked Dolarhyde scooping up Reba because -- if anything -- Red Dragon is giving him a sense of power and agency.  In his own "lair" (comfort zone of home) and with a woman he is starting to view as a Goddess (the tiger scene and the orange Fanta "becoming" for Reba in his eyes) he would feel righteous.  Especially in that moment because Fuller keeps telling us sex is something to be viewed through a Carnival Funhouse Mirror.

 

 

I thought the scene between Dolarhyde and Reba was WOW, that scene with the tiger, OMG, maybe I'm nuts but it was one of the most romantic things I've seen on TV.  When Reba touched that tiger...okay, even though I could tell it was fake, I was like right there, I wanted to touch the big cat too, and when Dolarhyde picked her up I was like, damn, turn up the AC.  When I think about it, I don't even remember that relationship being that hot in Red Dragon,  and the Dolarhyde in Manhunter was WAY too creepy; even a blind woman could see that that dude was CREEPY.

 

I wonder if changing Reba's race in this show is a homage to Ardelia Mapp, Clarice Starling's roommate in Silence of the Lambs and Hannibal.  In the book, Hannibal,

there is a very poigent scene at the end where Clarice sends her a a note to not ever look for her, she also sends a ring(?) that Ardelia throws into the sea.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Neurochick

[Crossbow]

I wonder if changing Reba's race in this show is a homage to Ardelia Mapp, Clarice Starling's roommate in Silence of the Lambs and Hannibal.  In the book, Hannibal,

there is a very poigent scene at the end where Clarice sends her a a note to not ever look for her, she also sends a ring(?) that Ardelia throws into the sea.

 

Maybe. Maybe they just noticed that they don't have any black actors on the show.

[BigBlueMastiff]

 

I don't feel sympathy for this Dolarhyde at all, he is too creepy and too inhuman and too crazy for me to connect to. Movie Dolarhyde felt more human. I look at this Dolarhyde and I think "he is disturbed". I look at movie Dolarhyde and I would think "he is a tortured". Makes for a difference.

Have to agree to disagree, because this D is way more sympathetic than the creep in Manhunter. That dude made my skin crawl.

[WearyTraveler]

Maybe. Maybe they just noticed that they don't have any black actors on the show.

Laurence Fishburne is white? :-O

[Jimmy McNulty]

I love Mads, but his renditions of the Manhunter lines were awful, like he wasn't even trying.

 

As much as Fuller has been hacking about this season with the film-school masturbation, I did enjoy the piece of original conversation between Hannibal and Jack and the shifting of locations for the conversations.

[Actionmage]

What I didn't get was why, if the patient distrusted Hannibal so much (and rightfully so), he would have gone to a psychiatrist that Hannibal referred him to...

 

IMO, the question is why did he go back to her after he knew she was Thing 2 to Hannibal's Thing 1?  If a patient/client finds themselves saying, "You're just as crazy as X," then maybe you should call your insurance's 800 line   and find someone else that takes your plan? Just spitballin'.

 

that scene with the tiger, OMG,

 

Right? I didn't realize how shallow my breathing got until Francis reacted to Reba touching the tiger's mouth and lips.  Then the sweeping her up? I didn't swoon, but that was some powerfully sexy, enthusiastic consent. From both parties! 

 

Damn, I do wish he would pick up on Hannibal's hints.  But why on earth would Frederick have Will's real address?   I think it would be funny if Francis showed up the wrong place (hopefully abandoned place).

 

I would love the show forever, artsy-fartsy digressions and all, if Francis ends up at a Mailboxes R Us- kind of place!  Will has to be aware that Frederick is, essentially, an ass-saving auctioneer of everything. Giving Frederick Chilton anything actual of yours is asking for someone to take it away. Hopefully Will, who's seen this fact up close and in person,  is written as smarter than that.

[Tippi Blevins]

Every time they show Hannibal using those pencils, I think it seems awfully risky to give him anything like that. Like, fine, give him something to draw with, but maybe some little nubbin size pencils, rather than stabbing length pencils. 

[attica]

My problem with Bedelia's she's so unemotional and her dialogue's so stilted.

 

I freaking love Anderson's line deliveries. I disagree that it's lack of emotion; it reads to me like every possible emotion turned up to eleven, and then just....stoppered. Like if she breathes too deeply or loudly she'll shatter. She utters each line as if she's contemplating the weight of every word just before it leaves her lips, so she can contain the nuclear winter.

[Black Knight]

I don't find Bedelia's line deliveries annoying - I find Will's line deliveries annoying. That's because with Bedelia it's really clear that it's simply an effect she puts on when she feels it necessary. Hugh Dancy, on the other hand, delivers Will's lines like that is just the way Will talks...and yeah, nobody talks that way naturally. It's one of the many things that makes Will very tiresome for me. I really don't know why anybody bothers with him. I feel sorry for his wife, and what Will has done there is really unconscionable, because it's very clear from his conversation with Bedelia in this episode (as well as common sense - no decent mother is signing on for that) that he married her without telling her anything important about his relationship with Hannibal. He made her and her son a target without her knowledge or consent. And it's that that makes me think Hannibal is right that Molly and Walter are essentially a person suit for Will. He wanted to look normal and so he had to get himself a wife and child. Who cares if that's throwing them in the path of a serial killer? His casual negligence there also explains why he's failed to pick up on any of Hannibal's rather obvious hints about Molly and Walter.

 

Bedelia's story about crushing/saving the bird and her patient recalled to my mind the incident in Florence, where she killed that guy to put him out of his misery. That was much more straightforward than the case with the patient, because the guy in Florence was done for as soon as Hannibal stabbed him in the head, while the patient still could have been saved. It looked to me like she stuck her hand in his throat to save him and then just acted on sheer impulse and was kind of shocked at herself for it. But she had something of an orgasmic reaction and that's telling. I agree, she sleeps fine at night.

[mertensia]

Ditto. Fiennes' portrayal made you understand how someone could view Dolarhyde as a sad loner if they had no clue about his nocturnal killings, but every time Armitage interacts with other people I'm wondering how they can avoid flinching away in instinctive terror and revulsion.

In this universe-or at least this universe's Baltimore - Dolarhyde probably *does* come across as weird but on the normal side of it! The entire Eastern Seaboard must be so emotionally exhausted from being Artistic Serial Killer Central that Dolarhyde just pings as "that weirdo down the street".

[FormerMod-a1]

When we've seen Dolarhyde in public, he hasn't seemed that odd to me.  A little brusque, quiet, shy or socially awkward? sure, but scarey/creepy? no.  He's only seemed that in the scenes we've seen of him alone.