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DeadlyEuphoric

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  1. DeadlyEuphoric

    S04.E10: XXXVIII

    I don't expect Miranda and what happened to her to be a problem between Thomas and Flint. Thomas knew Miranda, knew she was not just some weak woman who did whatever she was told, with no brains or will of her own. Miranda chose to stay with Flint. And Flint was in some way continuing to work on Thomas' work (of reforming pirates by creating a self-sustainable community) and Thomas is not one to take an issue with a person being idealistic and having visions of freedom... Besides, Miranda died not because Flint dragged her to some dangerous adventure, she died on a trip she insisted on and planned, killed in the middle of "civilization", visiting an old friend and ally of Thomas' after bringing him his daughter safely back home, supposedly staying under his roof as his guest. And she was killed by one of his men, not because she was being threatening or anything, she was merely shouting at the man... She was killed simply because "civilization" cant seem to resist the urge to kill/get rid of those it deems as "others"... Thomas knows very well how conniving and brutal and ruthless and dangerous "civilization" can be. If we are to go with TI and the story there as "ultimate truth", I think it still doesn't rule out the Thomas/Flint happy ending of Black Sails. It is possible Flint was reunited with Thomas, and they spent some time together happily. And then Thomas dies, and Flint is left all alone in the world, having to go through the agony of losing Thomas once more, with nothing to do really (no crew, money, ship, probably getting a bit too old, possibly having lost the old flame and belief of having the opportunity to change the world & by then piracy was no longer living its golden age). I can see him feeling very much worn out and beaten by life in general and turning into a sad alcoholic who has nothing but his old memories to hang onto now...
  2. DeadlyEuphoric

    S04.E10: XXXVIII

    I started rewatching the show and even from first episode, creating Nassau as a safe-heaven from "civilization" was always Flint's vision and plan. He was trying to build a life for himself there, free from yolk of others, their own fortress. I think with Miranda dead too, his rage made him lose sight of that vision from time to time, but it has always been there and an ulltimate goal of his. He is not all about chaos, even if he may appear to be to others. That doesn't mean he wasn't blinded by his own idealism and vision, it wasn't really something he was capable of achieving, however much he may wish it, others could see it, he did not. Which is why for others his "dream" is a nightmare, because the fighting will never stop, as he can never really achieve it... As for Flint's end, even if Silver had a reason to lie to Madi about it, Jack didn't. Just the opposite, life would be much easier for Jack if he could honestly tell Mrs Guthrie that Flint was dead as per her orders. Jack's whole speech was one trying to make her see Flint didn't need to be dead to cease to be a problem, that him retiring was just as good and something that would benefit her. Otherwise all he needed to say was "Flint is dead, but to ensure he is not seen a martyr to the cause we have decided the official story is he is retired". And Flint didn't just accept his fate. Silver mentions he didn't believe Silver's story of Thomas being alive and resisted it all the way, only to give up as they were near the shore, maybe because he was just physically exhausted by then, but maybe also because even letting himself have some hope of seeing Thomas finally has a calming effect. Actually, when they took him to the camp, he was in chains if I am not mistaken. He was brought there as a prisoner, against his own will. It ended up being a happy occasion for him, but till he saw Thomas I don't think he truly believed it himself. Do I think Silver would kill Flint if he thought he was in the way of Madi and his happy ever after? I think he might, yes. But I think when he told Flint he either accepted his fate or he had other way to deal with it, it was more about giving Flint a chance to get out of this with less of an ego bruise and more integrity or not. They could part ways as friends and comrades and equals, coming to a mutual decision or they would part ways with Flint as Silver's prisoner being forced to do what he demanded (and of course in danger of his life, as crew was likely to harm him if he tried to escape...). Flint had the choice to make things easy for himself and Silver or not, and he chose the difficult way... Don't think Silver really had to worry about Flint causing him problems later on. Even from the beginning of this show, Flint was shown as a brilliant tactician and a great captain with horrible relationship with his crew. He always needed someone else to mitigate things between himself and the crew and keep them in line and act as a buffer. Come the end of the series that person was Silver. The crew was no longer Flint's, it was Silver's crew now (and some of them were Jack's). When left at Savannah Flint has nothing left. He doesn't have a ship, doesn't have guns, money or a crew. Hard to wage a war in that situation. And I am sure Silver counted on Thomas actually being alive to act as a further incentive for Flint to not start waging a war again. With Thomas, Flint has something to lose. So, even if he did escape the prison with Thomas, not surprising that he wouldn't go back to "Flint" persona and start pirating and wage war again. Silver once asked Flint if he'd give everything up for Thomas (when the Spanish was attacking Nassua, though can't remember the exact wording. Flint didn't answer but his silence was answer enough. And Silver knows/believes from his own experience with Madi that Flint would opt for a happily ever after with Thomas. What Flint had was Madi, her belief and support in him. The moment Silver separated those two, he won. Without Madi around, Flint had no one in his corner in that final confrontation with Silver. Jack and his men were already there to kill him. Silver's own crew wouldn't have a qualm about killing him (just hours ago they were trying to do just that). He still had Silver, in the sense Silver wanted to keep him alive (Jack's story of how it is better Flint is retired, as killing him would just create a martyr is very likely to be a speech Silver gave him tbh) but Silver also wanted an end to the cause and "Captain Flint". So Captain Flint was beaten and done. And without "Captain Flint", Madi doesn't have the general to lead her army and spearhead her fight. She is rather left on her own corner too... This is also why the treasure needed to remain buried. To ensure the fight wasn't happening, the treasure needed to be kept away from Madi, with her having no hopes of getting her hands on it to fund her war. With Flint taken out of the picture, she lost both. Though I am pretty sure Silver had a hard time explaining to the crew the treasure needed to stay buried, I wouldn't be surprised that he could pull it. He has a special hold over them, they'll do anything he says, even when they know he is lying/wrong (like when he managed to have them all turn on Billy). Besides the men were pretty much worn off with all the fighting and the promise of an end to it, and Rogers being sent off and Nassau back in their control, the pirates probably were willing to just let the treasure be. It was never promised to them as personal fortune anyway, it was always seen as a means to fund the war. ETA: Speaking of Jack's speech.... It was quite a nice way of the writers explaining the discrepancies between Treasure Island and how they left things. I think in a way, they are saying this is how it really went in their story and in their reality, and if things don't really seem to fit into how it sounds like in TI that is because stories get distorted. We have seen it during that scene with the girl and Jack, she knew some of the stories about pirates right, and then some of the other stuff she heard were simply made up and extremely wrong. One never knows the actual reality... I am not saying they are claiming their story to be the "ultimate truth" I am just saying, as they are the storytellers, this is the truth in their story, and if it doesn't match with another version of the story, it is because that is a story told by another storyteller, neither version necessarily claiming to overlap perfectly or having superiority over the other or a better claim to the actual truth than the other... Maybe Thomas/Flint lived happily ever after in a prison camp, maybe they were miserable, maybe they escaped and made a new life for themselves under another name, maybe Thomas died and Flint drank himself to death.... Maybe Flint & Billy had an encounter years later which is when Flint gave him the map to the treasure for whatever reason. Maybe Billy found the treasure when marooned there, and later drew the map in hopes of one day returning to the island with a crew of his own and getting it. Gotta love all the possibilities and how everyone gets to pick and choose the version they like....
  3. DeadlyEuphoric

    S04.E10: XXXVIII

    Oh yes that... That was another part where I felt Flint knows, because he knows Silver well. Also made me think of Miranda/Flint and wonder if he was seeing parallels between him and Miranda and Silver and Madi. He loved Miranda, deeply, but it wasn't enough to just make him settle and try to build a happy life. Part of it was the rage about what was done to Thomas and the need for vengance, true, but I really think part of it is also because Flint just can't settle down, he was looking for something greater, to "matter" - which can very much tie into what was done to Thomas, how weak and helpless it made Flint feel for not being able to stop it, and how he got determined to never feel that way again, to prove himself to be stronger and unbeatable-... I think all those great speeches he gives aren't just him being manipulative, he believes in them too. It is not all that different from Jack and his need to make a name, in that sense...
  4. DeadlyEuphoric

    S04.E10: XXXVIII

    What a great end to a great show... Maroons got their freedom. Pirates got rid of Rogers. Thomas/Flint, Madi/Silver, Ann/Jack, Max/Nassau.. "Heroes" won, one way or other.... "I will stand here with you, for an hour, a day, a year while you find a way to accept this outcome so we might leave here together" "I will stay. And I will wait. A day, a month, a year, forever... in the hopes you will understand why i did what i did". I love it so much that Silver gave a similar speech/promise to Flint and Madi when trying to make them both see things his way and understand and even, forgive him. They were, and are the two people he came to care for the most in this world. I am pretty sure of it... And his smile when talking about Flint and Thomas' reunion was also rather telling, he was geuinely happy for Flint, imo. Which is why I am sure the story was true.) The Silver/Flint friendship has been one of the highlights of this show, and I believe both men genuinely cared for one another, despite all the betrayal and manipulation. I never doubted that Flint intended to save Madi, not just for the "cause" but also for Silver's sake... I thought his refusal to give the treasure was not just about needing it for the cause, it also came from knowing Rogers wasn't to be trusted (the guy didn't even agree to a plan his own wife set up, and rather had the Spanish invade & burn and butcher Nassau, for God's sake, Flint knew better to deal with that man again). Flint and Silver get one another in ways no one else gets them. They have shared the same kind of heartbreak, the same intense blind rage, the same kind of deep love so they can relate to each other in a special way not privy to others. They think and "feel" alike. Billy, Silver and Flint both pretty much referred to this in this episode... And I think that is why despite the betrayals their bond persisted. It is why Flint wasn't really angry with Silver for sending people to kill him and seemed to shrug it off. And I think it is also why in the end he was rather resigned to what was to come. He knew, the moment Silver backed Jack's demand to remain behind I think Flint knew something was up. And in the end he just sat there, waiting... Waiting for Silver to come and to talk to him. He wasn't threatening, he didn't bother to fight him - looked like he didn't even bother to have his gun and sword with him-. If it was anyone but Silver, I don't see him being so calm... Flint can't bring himself to kill Silver, in some ways he is all that Flint is left and as he can't kill him, he eventually had to let him call the shots and decide their fates. The difference between the two was, Silver had hope, he had a chance to get his dream of happily ever after with his true love being a reality, while all Flint had left in his life was avenging of a love lost. So of course Silver would do his best to "end" Flint (in part so Madi was left without an option), and doubt he'd stop even if "reunion with Thomas" wasn't an option. If he had to choose, he'd choose Madi over Flint, just like he chose Flint over Billy, though he rather not have to choose, of course... Thomas, in a way, saved both Silver and Flint in the end. Flint got to live, and Silver did not have to live with the knowledge he had to kill/harm Flint to get to his own happily ever after. It does look like the moment Silver learned of the possibility of Thomas being alive, he saw an opportunity for himself to leave all this behind. One does wonder what would happen if the Spanish didn't invade Nassau and Madi didn't get captured. How would he reveal the knowledge to Flint. Doubt there would have been a rescue mission for Thomas, as I don't see the pirates being inclined to risk their lives for him, Madi was another matter, she was an ally and seen crucial to their efforts. But Flint would go to save him somehow. Maybe he was hoping with Flint gone, and thus being the bad guy who "betrayed" the cause, he could somehow convince Madi to leave it all behind too. I don't know... I am not holding it against Silver that he didn't reveal about Thomas till now, though, as I don't think he really got a good opportunity. I get that while grieving it didn't occur to him to tell Flint about it, but I assume he would have revealed it soon. But once finding out Madi was captured I think he withheld the info on purpose as he needed Flint focused on saving Madi too... Thomas and Flint reunited is a happy ending, but hard to ignore the fact they are basically imprisioned... They probably don't care as long as they are united, and I think as long as they do the labor demanded, their wardens don't care either as to what they do in their spare time, but I do! There is something rather sad that the man who was spearheading a war of freedom is the one who ends up in shackles and locked up in the end, though. So in my imaginary world I'd like to think Flint just won't sit still for long and will find a way for him and Thomas to escape that place... Anne/ Jack have been another highlight and their bond has been unwavering. They may just be the only 2 people in this show who never betrayed one another. I like that they came to good terms with Max and the three are a team now, but I feel it will always be Anne & Jack first and foremost. And they won't stop their pirating ways, of course... Max is pretty much living Eleanor's dream. Ruling a Nassau that may look part of the empire on paper but rather autonomous in practice with the appointed governor being one of their own choosing too. And business seems to be booming. Billy came off unhinged when he put that knife to Madi's throat. The stuff he had done is going to haunt him forever. And marooned in the Skeleton Island, he will have more than enough time to rethink it over and over, and so become even more deranged. I don't find it surprising that by the time he got rescued from the island he'd have become extremely paranoid waiting for a reckoning day, and hearing just the name Long John Silver making him freak out. Eh, serves him right. Love that Jack got to be part of Roger's downfall and him and Flint fighting Rogers together was cool. Flint was a soldier and has been a pirate for such a long time afterwards and is so crazy determined when he sets his mind to it, that it doesn't really surprise me when he comes out on top in his fights. Though it never looks particularly easy for him, so they do a good job with writing those. I also appreciate that they make Rogers hard to beat in one-on-one sword fight and Jack or Fliny didn't just manage to just best him on their own.
  5. DeadlyEuphoric

    S03.E12: The Number Of The Beast Is 666

    Not only have they made Will omnipotent in his profiling and shown to know very much how the serial killer he is working on feels and thinks, in that scene he is the one actively calling Chilton in to the picture. It is one thing for Chilton to want to be in the picture and Will exasperated, agreeing to it. It is another for him to purposefully invite Chilton in to the frame, when the man is just happy to have done his part in helping them out (including giving the kind of interview THEY wanted him to give) and was just sitting the rest out. The plan was for Will and Will alone to rile the Dragon up. The picture was also supposed to be all about Will and giving a hint to Red Dragon on where to find him. It was all so meticulously planned and geared toward making Red Dragon strike. Then Will goes ahead and invited Chilton into the picture. and doesn't just stop there, he also puts his hand on his shoulder. That is why he doesn't really oppose it when he is accused of setting Chilton up. He knows what he did. and yet, I don't think he was "purposefully" planning Chilton to be hurt and/or killed. It was the dark side of Will getting the better of him, doing something out of curiosity ("hmmm, wonder if the Dragon will go for Chilton if I signal him as my pet?") and it is not something he does %100 aware. He realizes it only after being called out on it.That is kind of the difference between Hannibal and Will. Hannibal creates chaos, and sets people up for horrible things out of curiosity and because he likes it and he does so fully aware and on purpose. There is a part of Will that has the same kind of curiosity and the potential for creating that chaos, but it is not something he taps into, or acknowledges. He is not actively creating chaos... He doesn't get a kick out of it the way Hannibal does. But the potential is there and it is that potential that Hannibal is trying to unearth... I think they did want this Chilton to be more competent and likeable than his book/movie versions. I remember him talking about Will if memory serves) and his inability to crack him using the line "Fumbles at his head like a freshman pulling at a panty girdle" which is a disparaging line Hannibal uses regarding Chilton in the movies. ı think it makes a difference. When Hannbal saiid it, It was him mocking Chilton for his lack of talent and ability and knowledge, When it is Chilton who says it, the same line just because something he said to voice his own frustration at dealing with a difficult patient and gains him some points for being selfaware and realizing his limits.. He wanted fame and success, and could be rather sleazy about it all and wasn't as brilliant as Hannibal and Alana in his line of work (and seemed to know that), but could still manage to make some good observation and was right about a number of things. The man was onto Hannibal before Alana an Jack woke up to the fact, that alone gains him lots of points from me!
  6. DeadlyEuphoric

    S03.E13: The Wrath Of The Lamb

    I don't think the genre a work is created in determines the intentions of a writer regarding how a character is to be perceived. Genre is more like a setting of a story, a guideline of sorts, and one can still be creative with their story and characters. It is possible to have Dracula as a true monster that you want to see hunted down, and it is also possible for someone else to write him as an emo protoganist who just needs some love in his life. And just because Hannibal doesn't turn into a bat, doesn't make him any less fictional and a work of imagination than Dracula (I would even say there are times he seems superpowered himself, the way it seems there is nothing he is not good at and he is able to find time for all his activities -how does he do it all?!). The setting of Hannibal the series may appear to be the real world, but it is not the real world at the end of the day. I think this is why the actors and Fuller remind us of that a few times, and included Abigail as a ghost (noticed by the priest) at the beginning of this season and had a fairytale like quality to first half of the season, they were driving that point in. I can't claim to know what Harris intended with his characters, as I didn't really read the books. But given Clarice ends up becoming Hannibal's murder wife in the books and they go on their merry way killing people and living the high life, seems to me he gave the victory and the happy ending to Hannibal, and was the first one who came up with the idea Hannibal would decide to make a companion out of the clever cop coming after him, and be able to charm that cop. Fuller seems to have expanded on that idea, and focusing on that relatiionship and love story for his series, only, instead of Clarice he is using Will. He may have romanticized that story in way Harris didn't in his books, I don't know, I don't think Fuller ever claimed to have an intention to stay true to the book, this is his own design, with Harris' books as a starting point, an inspiration. In any case, when I make analysis of Hannibal and what I believe to be his intentions and feelings in this show, I am talking about the show's/Fuller' s Hannibal and not Harris' Hannibal. Same with me... Oh, don't get me wrong, I love slash fic, used to read them fanfc (inclusing slash) some 10 years ago for 2 other fandoms and you could get such great little stories, some better than how the series "officially" ended up being. But they are addictive and very time consuming and Hannibal is taking a lot of my time as it is anyway, I don't want to start reading Hannbal fanfic and get even more lost. But it is becoming rather hard to resist. And if we are not getting a continution of the show, fanfic might be the way to go for some Hannibal-fix...
  7. DeadlyEuphoric

    S03.E13: The Wrath Of The Lamb

    I don't think he was being petty, or had an ulterior motive, an advantage to gain; he seemed more like confirming then anything. There are things about himself or about Hannibal that Will knows deep-inside, but only admits/realizes and accepts when someone else tells it aloud or pushes him into accepting (like him setting up Chilton). Between Freddie and Bedelia flat-out calling him Hannibal's spouse etc. and insuniating their relationship was way too intimate, I think he was forced to really question it and then admit it, and this was his way of doing so... Or, he had been second-guessing himself about this for a while, not quite sure what Hannibal's interest in him really was about (hard to be objective and rational when it is a matter this personal) so he needed to double-check to make sure it wasn't just him adding more meaning to some things Hannibal does or say? Oh, and given how Hannibal reacted the last time Will rejected him, and how he had just a day ago tried to open up his head and eat his brains, Will breaking up with him while sitting all worn-out in his bed, and starting that speech with "I will miss my dogs, I will not miss you" -no less!- definitely took a lot of guts. I agree the she didn't rise to Will's stature and he was defnitely manipulative with her and did his "murder is OK" thing, but I would say she also rates above the likes of Randall Tier and there was a more personal connection (maybe because she reminded him of Mishca?). I don't think Hannibal's patients who he influences to murder are allowed to know he himself is a serial killer, he always protects himself. Abigail knew he was the one who made the calll to warn Hobbs. she knew he was a serial killer. And she wasn't always obedient and could do stuff that could lead to Hannibal being exposed too (like digging up the body they buried together, an action that made Will realize the truth about Abigail, and forced Hannibal to admit to Will that he helped Abigail out in hiding the body). I think any other patient causing this much trouble and posing some danger would have been killed (and especially once everyone assumed Abigail was murdered by Will, killing her for real would have been very easy for Hannbal. Instead, she was supposed to be part of the "family" he envisioned having with Will (even back in Oeuf, where Alana-Hannibal - Abigail had the family dinner, in the script Hannibal tells Alana that the third setting was for Will, but they couldn't reach him... I guess they cut that part out to not overdo it with the whole "murder family" thing that early..) and given how Hannibal does not like sharing Will with anyone that makes me think she had some special place too.,
  8. DeadlyEuphoric

    S03.E13: The Wrath Of The Lamb

    I don't find Hannibal to be pure evil as I don't think pure evil has the capacity to care and love nor does it feel regret, and Hannibal does. Even if minimal and reserved to a very select number of people that you can count in one hand... I also think pure evil wouldn't have feelings of loneliness and a need for company. Hannibal does. He needs a friend, a companion. He is not like the dragon whose number one goal seemed to become this higher being that made sure people felt awe... I think that is why the dragon wanted to destroy the one human connection Dolarhyde made , and even with Dolarhyde "ın control" there was no room for Reba in his life as "Dragon", Though Hannial sure loves being smarter and superior to everyone, his main goal in the series has been Will's companionship because he needs someone to connect to, someone who'll understand him, someone who will feel the same way he does and Will is the first person who made him feel this way and realize this need. Hannibal doesn't want to destroy the human connection he made, he cherishes it. Didn't read Hannibal Rising but watched the movie, and there was no doubt that Hannibal genuinely loved Mischa and later his aunt, Lady Murasaki. During the series they didn't get into the relationship Hannibal had with his sister much, but from what we have shown I think it was clear that he absolutely loved her, her death did hurt him, and he missses her and regrets he couldn't prevent it. We have mentions of Lady Murasaki but not enough to make any conclusions on his relationship wth her in this version but there is Chiyoh and he may have played his manipulative game with her too, but he does seem to have affection and care for her, and it is probably why she is so loyal to him despite everything. Hannibal may be a monster to everyone else, but the few people he loves, get to enjoy the best parts of him, and so end up caring for him deeply. I was actually surprised to see the Abigail/Hannibal flashbacks this season as I always assumed his interest and care for her were there mostly for Will's sake, as a means to bond with Will, but no. the scenes this season showed that Hannibal had a personal intrest in Abigail. He did care for her and tried to do right by her in his own way. Unlucky for her, his obsession with Will just trumps anything and everything.... And then there is Will. Will, who seems to have become everything for Hannibal. He will give up his freedom for him He will even plunge to his death, no resistance, if it means having one pure moment of togetherness with him... As for regret. I think that is what all that talk of teacups and time reversing is all about. You want time to reverse, for the teacup you shattered to get back together only if you have regrets and there are things you want to change in the past, to make right, to make whole again. That is why, after Italy and the Muskrat farm, when Hannibal asked Will if they were going to talk about teacups shattered and time reversing, I felt that was as close to an apology Hannibal was ever going to get for things he did to Will.. And Will saying "teacup is shattered and it will never get back together" was him saying "never going to forgive you. We are done." Hannibal even tells him that he is the "victorious" one, which is rather humble of Hannibal given his ego, and still Will wouldn't budge. During the "mic drop" scene I thought Will (who now had i "confrimed" by Bedelia that Hannibal is in love with him) was just saying that to rile Hannibal up, to have the final word, and it wasn't necessarily true. The "break up" scene in episode 7 came off as too genuine for it to be manipulative, and he did seem rather surprised and pissed off that Hannibal didn't leave. But I am also OK with it if he was manipulating Hannibal at that moment and had him fooled again, because that gives him the upper hand, and is such a great victory over Hannibal. The show has us and Will constantly guessing what his true intentions are, and I guess this is one of those moments. And to be honest, I keep changing my mind on the subject to. I first wrote "I prefer it if he manipulated Hannibal in that scene" and then I just rewatched the scene and I was like "nope, I prefer it as a genuine break-up scene". Guess that says something about the brilliance of this show. There was an interview with Bryan Fuller (I think) where he says something similar to this. Hannibal is a serial killer, yes, but he is not a "real world" serial killer.... And after I wrote that sentence I actually went and found the interview so will just write it down (and I have forgotten him mentioning Hannibal has regrets, which I just wrote about too, so was nice to see the interview again lol) " Hannibal Lecter recognizes in Will Graham for the first time in anyone he ever has encountered in his life the opportunity for a friednship, a real friendship. Because he sees something in Will Graham that he also sees in himself. They are both unique in their crazy. Hannibal Lecter is not your regular psychopath because he experiences empathy. He is not a sociopath, because he has regrets. So there are things that make him a work of fiction. Most killers and serial killers are not anywhere in the league of Hannibal Lecter. They are not the sophisticates, they are actually brutes. It is about control and male penetrative issues. And with Hannibal Lecter, he doesn't see his victims the way a serial killer would traditionally see his victims. He sees his victims as 'if you are a pig of a human being, you deserve to be somebody's bacon'. It is a very simple motto of eat the rude which I think gives us a little bit of levity, a little bit of comedy on the show, to kind of, relief from what is a very dark world."
  9. DeadlyEuphoric

    S03.E13: The Wrath Of The Lamb

    Well, if Will continues to feel torn when with Hannibal, then he can't be happy, sure. But then, as long as he has the dual pull when it comes to Hannibal, he will always be pushing him off a cliff anyway, so they can't be together in that scenario... I know and totally get that many don't want Will and Hannibal together because Hannibal is evil, and evil should not end up getting what it wants, should not have a happy ending, not even in fiction. Me, I don't care if Hannibal has a happy ending if it means Will gets a happy ending. I guess, as long as the relationship makes sense and I can feel mutual love and care between the two characters, I don't care if we end with a moral lesson or a hero's ending. If Will destroys Hannibal, and symbolically cleansed of his own dark side -more or less- goes on to live a happy life with Molly, that would be fine too (though the way this series was set, nothing seems to compare to the relationship he has with Hannibal, but between the chemistry of the actors and the few cute little scenes they got Molly has been able to make a good impression, at least). What I don't want is seeing Will destroyed and made even more miserable, losing everything, as Hannibal just continues to exist. Basically, I don't wish the book's ending for Will, where he ends up all alone, drinking himself to oblivion as Hannibal goes on his merry way... Petersen's Will is my least favorite Will of them all, to be honest. He felt too much like a seasoned cop, a hard man and didn't really get the empathy thing from him.. Didn't get much feel at all. As much as I hated Norton's weird blonde-dye hair in the movie, I thought he was able to portray the empath bit, you did get the feeling he had a special understanding of criminals and he felt about the cases deeply... And he felt more connected and loving with his family too. And Dancy, of course, is the best of all. It is because of him that I find Petersen's portrayal even more unsatisfactory now. And I believe among all the adaptations, the relationship between Hannibal and Will is the most impersonal and cold in Manhunter. Red Dragon's Will and Hannibal had the mentor-student relationship and you felt Hannibal at least had some admiration for this clever boy. Fuller's Hannibal/Will is admittedly a love story and even if one doesn't see the shipping aspect of it, the bromance can't be denied. While it seemed like there was no love lost between Manhunter's Hannibal and Will. They were clear adversaries...
  10. DeadlyEuphoric

    S03.E13: The Wrath Of The Lamb

    Captanne, oh i know why he is a profiler. It is one of the reasons i like Will a lot. He will always strive to do the right thing even when it is difficult, or even not good (for his health, for his happiness etc.) for him. I find that incredibly selfless of him. If memory serves when ghost!Abigail reminded him Hannibal gave him a chance to run away with him without all the bloodshed and he didn't take it, he replies "the wrong thing being the right thing to do was too ugly a thought". I love that line. Running away with Hannibal at that point would have made Will happy and would have spared everyone else but he couldn't do it because it was "wrong" and so "ugly". It is why he dislikes Freddie and Bedelia so much too i think. They do wrong,immoral, tasteless things and dont even feel bad or pay for it. Will may have his moments where he slips up and does something wrong, but then he agonizes over it a lot and tries to atone for it. He always pays the price, willingly... i think Hannibal is also aware of this, he has mentioned how strong Will's morality is to Bedelia and "you delight in wickedness, then berate yourself for the delight" line was spot on. That is why Will keeps going into Hannibal's orbit but then keeps rejecting him and denying he has any real interest... and i think that is part of the appeal for Hannibal too. Will is a huge challange... Funny enough, although i admire and love his morality I'd be fine with Will running off into the sunset with Hannibal if it means he will finally be happy. The man deserves to be happy. But only if Will remains Will and does it on his own. Drug-induced brainwashing/conditioning as was done to Clarice (though i think there was a claim it didnt fully take, but still i believe it had some effect?) is something i dread. Though i would like to think show!Hannibal wouldn't do that as he also needs Will to love and accept him and choose to stay with him on his own, with his freewill. MisterGlass, thanks for reminding the angelmaker scene. I think it was rather a powerful way of showing how Will felt about himself and the darkness within him. And that scene where he pulls the trigger on that socialworker and Hannibal stops him, was a great Hannibal/Will moment. Hannibal stopping Will from killing someone was rather unexpected. Of course part of the reason Will wanted to kill that guy was he was drawing parallels between his relationship with Hannibal and the betrayal he felt and what the socialworker did to that guy...
  11. DeadlyEuphoric

    S03.E13: The Wrath Of The Lamb

    They did bring up his various mental conditions a few times, so I guess they are supposed to play a part too but I do believe the "main" reason for him avoiding people as much as he could was what you said. Him knowing his own dark side and not wanting people to see it (also why he hates being psychoanalyzed and therapy, but then who would like having someone poke around their mind?) and also not wanting to expose himelf to other people's dark thoughts any more than he needed to (maybe also because their darkness feeds into the darkness within him). Though, he really did make the wrong career choice for that purpose - homicide detective turned profier? He should have been a veterinarian or something..
  12. DeadlyEuphoric

    S03.E13: The Wrath Of The Lamb

    Will pretty much states he doesn't like being social (and that his spectrum is closer to Asperger's and Autism), and his actions and manners support that too (he avoids eye contact -btw, hated Jack correcting his eyeglasses to force him into making eyecontact- and interaction even with his students and tends to be awkward in personal conversations etc...). Don't think any of that had to do with encephalitis, the hallucinations and blackouts did (though part of that was Hannibal messing with him). (Come to think of it, I think the right terminology is asocial...) I also think there is a bit of a difference between "at work" Will and "personal life" Will. He is confident and more at ease at work, normally, because he knows he is good at it, and he knows he needs to be strong about his views if he is to be listened to and make a difference. It was one of the reasons he kept on doing it, even when he knew he was sick somehow and not in a good shape (I think he even told Jack he had no one who could do it better than him even when he is unraveling - not the exact words of course). He does hate confontation, but doesn't shy from it when necessary. I remember the scene in S1 when they come acrosss Abigail's murdered friends body, and Jack is horrible to Will, grilling him, questioning his judgement on Abigail etc. and Hugh Dancy's body language is wonderful in there, it feels like Will is trying to shrink and he is looking at anything but Jack (and at one time even seems to look at Hannibal hoping for some back up). Till the point where he tells Jack whoever killed the girl in the field murdered this girl too and he is NOT wrong about that, and he is looking directly at Jack then... I think the first episode was the begining of encephalitis but it hasn't really started affecting him mentally yet. More like he was showing the first physical signs of it, like fever...
  13. DeadlyEuphoric

    S03.E13: The Wrath Of The Lamb

    Hee! I remember some recaps I was reading from S1 and the recapper was making comments on Will-the-teacher like "Will subscribes to the idea every 5 years old has that if you ignore people, they can't see you too" (when commenting on how a student clearly wanted to approach him to ask a question and he would just gaze at anywhere but her direction and she gave up and left) or "oh, so he is THAT kind of a teacher" (when he asks the class what the clue is on Hobb's resignation letter that enabled them to catch him, and then a few raise hands, and he just says "there is none. Luck and bad book-keeping is how we caught him". I doubt he was a well-liked teacher. I mean, the guys teaching motto was "I am talking at them, not to them. It is not sociable", heh. The move with showing us the lengths he went to rescue Winston (he went home, got some good, and came back for Winston, after a long tiring day!) was sure a brilliant way to make Will endearing and heroic. Beverly and Will was a relationship to cherish. When you think about it, how she was introduced into his lif was kind of annoying for him - she barged into his "this is my design" stance when they were all instructed to leave him alone, straight out asked him if he wasn't real FBI because he is unstable, and then had the audacity to claim it was her who was interrupted by Will when Jack came in asking her what she was doing there. She made Will all nervous in that first encounter... And yet, I think he liked her honesty and the fact she didn't treat him any different than how she treats others and he did like her and was comfortable talking to her. That is so rare for him. I agree. Will does make Hannibal more human, and in turn more vulnerable and I think that is why he also tried to "resist" Will and is the reason behind his own attempts to injure/kill Will. A summary of Will/Hannibal from Hannibal's part would go something like this: When they first met, I think Hannibal instantly took an interest in Will due to his empathy and his attitude and the way his brain works. Will was rather hostile and rude towards Hannibal initially, and I am sure anyone else with that attitude would have been served as an appetizer in Hannibal's next dinner party, but not Will. I think it was in that very same episode he told him him as the mongoose under the house when snakes slither by. So, he did saw something special in Will immediately. It wasn't love, yet, obviously, but I think he felt like he met someone "worthy" finally and wanted to know him better. And he felt a certain thrill in seeing Will work on his case... The relief he felt when Will came in through the door after the encounter with Tobias was the first sign Hannibal genuinely cared about Will and his well-being - even though at this stage he is still playing his games... I am sure it came as a surprise even to him that he cared this much, and it is about this time he started to brand Will as his "friend" and would not stop talking about him (there was a recap on tumblr that was making parallels between how desperate Hannibal seemed to officially become Will's friend and how needy and desperate Franklyn was to officially be Hannibal's friend. it was hilarious) The loneliness he felt and his fidgeting when Will didn't show up for his appointment because he was off in hallucinationland was obvvious. He was still being an ass and horrible, and lettng Will continue to suffer from Encephalitis and messing with his head but I think it was also because he knew a "healthy" Will would be likely to figure out Hannibal was the Chesapeake Ripper and obviously that is not something he wanted to happen. Still, there were already signs he didn't handle being without Will very well, he missed his company. One really gets the feeling the best part of Hannibal's workday was when he and Will could have their conversations, after he had to suffer listening to "normal" people and their mundane problems all day long. When Will was imprisoned, and he kept his appointment open, and would sit all alone in the office looking at his empty chair - He was so smug when he first framed Will... And then he found himself missing Will tremendously and trying to get him out ASAP. Once again, I think Hannibal underestimated how much he has come to care for Will and how much he'd miss him.... And then, despite Bedelia's repeated warnings to stay away from Will, he resumed therapy with Will and let himself be seduced. He was completely fooled by Will and if it wasn't for Freddie's parfume, was going to be caught. The betrayal stunk, as did the fact he let himself be vulnerable enough to be fooled like that. And here he was, making plans of surprising Will with Alive!Abigail and how happy he would be... Stil, he wasn't ready to give up on Will yet, and gave him one more chance to make it all alright, offering to run away right then and there. But Will wouldn't take it... And when the time for confrontation came, he still couldn't bring himself to kill Will, and cut him just right so he could survive. "I let you see me. Gave you a rare gift. But you didn't want it". He had given Will his love, his trust, his friendship and Will didn't want it and used it all against him... Love that they made sure to include Will's reply to this. "Didn't I?" because, really, he did but couldn't just accept it . "You would deny me my life?" "no" "my freedom then?" - because his life and his freedom are the two things Hannibal will not let anyone take from him - and really, why should he? No one in their right minds would be OK with that. And that is exactly what Will was trying to take from him... And then, in one of his dumbest moves ever, Will made things even worse by claiming he already changed Hannibal (it never pays off to further anger and hurt an already angry cannibal in a blood rampage!!!). Wth his heart broken; his ego, his feeling of being smarter and superior is all that is left to Hannibal and here was Will taking a stab at that too. Because he did change Hannibal. He made him feel, trust, care, love - and not only care for Will, but also Abigail. He made him human. And so, as his punishment, Hannibal kills Abigail. It is his own attempt to free himself from Will and his influence, to end their relationship... But it didn't work out. Hannibal can't escape Will any more than Will can escape him. 8 months in Italy living the high-life with Bedelia as an intellectual companion, and nothing works. So, knowing Will would be healed by then, he leaves him a calling card - his broken heart- to lure him back... Will immediately goes back to messing with his head (and feelings) by saying "I forgive you". Which does make Hannibal hopeful for a reunion, I think (and so leads to the emo Hannibal sitting around moping all day driving Bedelia crazy). And their meeting in Uffizi is affectionate. It is almost as if things are back to being "friendly" between them... Only for it to be revealed Will once again chose to betray him, and this time around was ready to deny him his life. So, Hannibal decides to kill Will as Bedelia suggested (attempt number 2 to remove Will's influence) and chooses to eat, so like Mischa, he'd always be with him... Then Muskrat farm happens. It changes things, be it Will being in danger from others, or making Hannibal go "soulmate!" when he bit Cornell's face off, who knows.. Hannibal is back to wanting Will to live. and wants them to make up and probaby thought having a common enemy would just achieve that. But nope. Will won't have any of it. He breaks it off. And Hannibal realizes a life without Will in it just is not very appealing to him anymore, he can't go back to his no-worries-in-life, problem free, serial-killer days. He can run away and be free physically but otherwise he will not be free at all, he is too obsessed by Will and too miserable without him. So rather he sacrifices his freedom to position himself in a place where he can lure Will back to him, and continue to attempt to make him "see". Because there will always be serial killers, and Jack Crawford will always be incompetent in catching them and uncaring about Will's well being, and Will will always find it difficult to say no to saving people (and have a part that wants to be with Hannibal, that wants to see him). Hannibal can wait... And now, it all pays off. This time their common enemy does bring them together. When Hannibal says "see, this is all I ever wanted for you" it is almost like he is pleading with Will to understand he DID have his best interest at heart, he wasn't wishing something bad for Will. And the "for both of us" is pretty much an admission of love, and an offer to run away together again. And this time around Will agrees with Hannibal. "It is beautiful". He finally has Will's acceptance and love, but of course an instant later Will decides to throw him (and himself) off a cliff (Will is very consistent with his betrayals like that). And Hannibal seems resigned to that too. First he sacrificed his freedom for Will, and now he is letting him take his life too... When you think about it like this, Will seems to be the one who has a more powerful stand emotionally. And he is the one who usually delivers the emotional blows to the other one and keeps betraying him. Both are drawn to one another, but especially this season, Hannibal came off rather desperate and needy, acting like an obsesssed jeaous ex most off the time. Will has more options for human connections and people who care for him -even if not a lot-. He has been able to move on from Hannibal and make himself a family (even if not totally honest about it)*. Will is the only person Hannibal connected to, he is "it" for him, and he can't move on, and frankly doesn't want to, because Hannibal is used to getting what he wants so he figures he will just be patient and try and try till he wears Will down. Maybe being thrown off a cliff will change things? somehow I have my doubts, though, because even if Will threw him off a cliff, he DID so after admitting to finding. That is progress! And I agree that having feelings probably enables Hannibal to be more cruel and violent now as he has more at stake. No wonder he went from a serial killer who killed 2-3 people from time to time when hosting feats, to massacring house full of people... Come to think of it, he may have killed more people since meeting Will then he did during all those years as Chesapeake Ripper, lol. * Ironically, I think it is his relationship with Hannibal that made Will less awkward and more social, where now he can actually be in a relatioship with someone and even get them to marry him. He is much more confident and self-asssure. I believe that strength is something he got after he finally had someone who accepted him and made him fear his "darkness" less. When you are not so at war with yourself or afraid of what people might think of you if they know you a bit better, you become less awkward!
  14. DeadlyEuphoric

    S03.E13: The Wrath Of The Lamb

    Re: Bedelia's scene I think of it as a glimpse into S4. Kind of like how S2 started with Jack/Hannibal fight of the finale, and then we got the story of how things got there and how that fight ended. Bedelia's scene may very well be a glimpse into S4 finale or mid-finale (that we could have had), and we would have been told how things went there, starting with how Hannibal and Will survived their fall,what they did afterwards etc. If Bedelia, like the rest of the world, thought they were dead, she would have been caught off-guard. Or, even if she suspected they didn't die and remained in hiding they could have just tracked her in time and snatched her from whererver it was she was hiding...
  15. DeadlyEuphoric

    S03.E12: The Number Of The Beast Is 666

    I can see the "sexual" side of this relationship in Hannibal, but it is not what this relationship is about, and it is not what makes it special. The bound between the 2 man, the fact that they are the anwer to one another's loneliness, that they have acceptance and understanding between themselves that they can not find in anyone else (not at this level), is what makes them close. And I think, in their case, all that emotional and mental closeness leads up to some sexual closeness too. So, no, Hannibal does not want Will for his body, and he did not fall in love with him because of his face pretty face. But I do see him desiring Will physically too, because he is completely obsessed and enamoured with Will and would want to have him in every aspect - mind, soul and body. In a way, it is different than how usual TV couples tend to move. Usually first there is sexual attraction, then you get more emotional basis for the relationship and they grow apart or come together through their experiences... It would be the other way around for Will/Hannibal. Will has only now accepted how he feels about Hannibal and can't resist him, it will take him even more time to decide he wants Hannibal sexually, I think... So if there was ever to be a Hannibal/Will kiss, I think it would only come after they get to spend some substantial time just the two of them together, exploting the emotional side of the relationship even further.
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