S05.E09: The Dance Of Dragons

[Constantinople]

Hizdahr didn't have many "wins" on Game of Thrones -- I'm assuming he's dead -- but at least he was a better pit handicapper than Daario.

[One Tough Cookie]

OMG--I want Melisandre to contract uterine cancer, have it travel to her spine and brain and die a slow, tortuous death.  I want Stannis'

dick to shrivel and fall off and for him to contract pancreatic cancer and linger for a LONG time. I want them to long for death, but not die.

[FozzyBear]

I can't. They didn't. Why? I need Stannis and the Red Witch dead! DEAD NOW!

I really thought up until they cut away the entire army would just say Oh Fuck It and rise up to kill their HORRIBLE King, Queen, and crazy cult leader and save their precious little princess. I really did. That was Ned Stark level fucked up. No! That was Ned Stark X 1000 level fucked up!

[Dobian]

The problem with this show is there is no guarantee of justice for any of the atrocities committed.  There still hasn't been any justice for old Ned Stark after five long years.  Even when Joffrey died, it wasn't to bring justice for his crimes, it was for other personal and political reasons.  We may never see a satisfying comeuppance for Stannis and Mel.  Sansa might avenge her family by killing the Boltons, or she might just as end up a prisoner in her old home forever.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Dobian

[Freckledbruh]

Indeed.  When Tyrion described her last week as the baby girl with nothing but her name - no money, no army, no land (and when you think about it, no family, no allies, no homebase) and now she's acquired all of it.  I remembered back through the seasons and what she has been through and done to acquire these things.  She is to me the most impressive.  She was sold to a warlord king by her horrible, molesting brother and managed to get him to love AND respect her and even dispatch her brother for her.  She "birthed" the dragons - something nobody has done for centuries.  She went through the dessert and chessgamed her way through three different cities against men who literally laughed in her face.  SHE, in her own plan, acquired her army.  She frees slaves and coddles dragons and makes dishonorable men honorable.  Sorry but Dany's a bad bitch!  That btw, is the highest compliment that I bestow to a fellow female - it means that I think she is smart and deserving and she has my vote.

Word to all of this!  I started this show three weeks ago (binged watched prior seasons) to see what all of the hype was about and Dany's story is the only one remotely interesting to me.  This girl went from being sold as a sex slave and breed sow to freeing thousands of slaves.  She ate a whole raw heart of a stallion.  Last night, she rode a dragon.  Dany gets mad respect from me.  I should care about the White Walkers but since the Wall is being protected by a gang of rapists, murderers and thieves who don't have any loyalty to each other, I'm pretty much thinking Sam, Gilly and that baby need to grab a bag of dragon glass and get the heck out of dodge.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Is there anyone in Westoros who doesn't know about Cersei and Jaime's twincest?

No.

Worst. Kept. Secret. Ever.

[Hecate7]

I shake my head at how all the crimes of the people that Dany killed are suddenly ignored. For goodness sake, Doreah betrayed Dany causing the death of several of her men and conspiring to steal her dragons. The Sons of the Harpies murdered innocent people as well as the Unsullied and killed Ser Bannistan. Yet someone having one of the wealthy families behind the Sons of the Harpies eaten and imprisoning Hiz is worse. 

 

I am becoming more and more convinced that at the core of whole lot of people's dislike of Dany is that she is woman in power having to make tough decisions. She has done nothing that deserves the relentless (and sometimes wacky) criticism that she receives.

 

Doreah murdered Irri in cold blood, and let Daxos' men kill more than a few of Dany's. The scene of the crime was devastating to look at, and that was down to Doreah, who incidentally also had to be the one to steal the dragons.

 

I think the dislike of Dany is really about her being a woman, too. But there's also the fact that she's over the ocean and has never been to the country she thinks she should rule, and everything she's doing to learn how to rule is teaching her to rule Essos, not Westeros. Plus when she makes a mistake it's a huge one, like killing her sweet young advisor for killing a guy without a trial first, without an actual trial for him, and then, after making such a huge deal about the importance of a trial, killing some of the city fathers randomly by dragon.

 

This is a way to get people to rush down to the place where her remaining two dragons are chained and kill them fast. I hope Tyrion and Jorah are thinking quickly and can get Rheagal and Viserion out of there. Viserion, anyway. Rheagal seems a bit bloodthirsty to me.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Hecate7

[MrsRafaelBarba]

He's Meryn Trant. He killed Syrio Forel, Arya's water dancing master. He's also been pretty awful to Sansa, but Arya doesn't know this.

That same actor also played a creeper on THC's Vikings.

[NeelyO]

I re-watched the episode and noticed something I missed the first time around. When Dany et al were in the middle of the arena surrounded by the Sons of the Harpy, it wasn't until she clasped Missandei's hand that she calmed down and appeared to focus and then closed her eyes (and presumably called for Drogon). I then remembered a previous episode when Dany was struggling with a decision and it wasn't until she talked to Missandei that she gained confidence and became more resolute. I kind of like the thought of Dany gaining strength through Missandei.  

[Unknown poster]

I re-watched the episode and noticed something I missed the first time around. When Dany et al were in the middle of the arena surrounded by the Sons of the Harpy, it wasn't until she clasped Missandei's hand that she calmed down and appeared to focus and then closed her eyes (and presumably called for Drogon). I then remembered a previous episode when Dany was struggling with a decision and it wasn't until she talked to Missandei that she gained confidence and became more resolute. I kind of like the thought of Dany gaining strength through Missandei.

I thought it was more of a "well, guess this is the end. At least I'm not going to die all alone." Kind of moment, actually. I'd like to think that if Dany has some kind of telepathic link to the dragons, she'd actually have more control over them, and not have to resort to locking them away to keep them from eating peasants and their families.

[Stardancer Supreme]

So what's up with Bronn and his new girlfriend? I assume he'll be travelling back with Jaime and Prince Whatsisname.

So will  Josie and the Pussysnakes be following along as well? The sparrows ought to love them!

 

Love this post!  I'll bet they will tag along to King's Landing as well. I don't think that Doran will leave Trystane unprotected. Surely he has heard what happened to Cersei, Margeary, and Loras by now.

 

 

I am still trying to figure out why Martel's lover is all "lets get revenge!!" I get she's mad that he's dead - but Martel died in a trial by combat - that he volunteered to do. Like, get over it. Quickly. I like the daughters (where's the 4th?). I love Alexandre Siddig (hmm Dr. Bashir!) more of him please. (actually no. the longer y'all stay in pretty Dorne, the less chances you'll die).

 

According to the show, Oberyn has 5 illegitimate children.  The 3 Sand Snakes are the 3 eldest, and Ellaria is mother to 2 of them.  I'll assume the last 2 children are much younger than the ones we have seen.

[VCRTracking]

When Drogon flew in I said in my Yoda impression "Around the survivors, a perimeter create!"

[hks]

Okay, I might be seeing things, but wasn't Reek at Stanis' campsite or whatever? I am pretty sure we see him as Davos makes his way across all the destruction to say goodbye to Shireen. I was all intrigued, thinking he's a bigger part of Ramsey's plan - not just to come in and sack and burn everything, but to leave Reek there as a spy and/or get him to murder Stannis or someone. But...no one else has made a comment about Reek being there. And it's not in the recap. So, am I just seeing things? Please help! 

 

ETA: I have asked friends. They have stated that I am crazy and the guy whom I think looks like Reek looks nothing like him. So...never mind.

 

What happened to Shireen was TERRIBLE, but not terribly surprising.  It felt inevitable - Stannis is not a good person. Or a strong person. Melissandre has got all the power there. As soon as he insisted his wife and daughter come with him when they left Castle Black, it seemed clear. But he'll get his. Eventually. If I am right about Reek being left at the site, I don't think he'll kill Stannis (I think his wife will, actually). But maybe Reek will lead to his downfall first? Or maybe I'm really imagining things.  ETA: Yes. I am. Carry on. 

 

I don't think Dany summoned Drogan. I agree that her closed eyes was her bracing herself for death. I think HE might have telepathic powers, in sensing his mom is in danger. But I don't think Dany has them...yet.  I also don't think those spears were all that harmful to him.  They pierced his skin, but seemed like they did nothing. I HOPE. It did seem strange that she flew off and left her crew there, but I have to pretend with her gone, the Harpies were like, "okay, I guess we're done here." 

 

I don't trust the Sand Snake lady. She is up to something. And I think that something is going to lead to her brother's death. He's the one keeping the peace between Dorne and the rest, with him dead, she can go get any kind of revenge she feels like.

Edited June 8, 2015 by hks

[myname2use4now]

About Drogon knowing when to show up...my thought is that the last time we saw him near her, she was alone, on top of the tower, in a state of mental distress. Second time, she's also in distress, surrounded by her enemies and a few seconds away from certain death. I think Drogon senses when she's in distress and comes to her. I haven't read the books so I don't know if this is the way it works, but I think it works sorta like that.

[spaceytraci1208]

When Drogon flew in I said in my Yoda impression "Around the survivors, a perimeter create!"

When he started roasting folks, my friend who I was watching the show with started singing Aaliyah's "Hot Like Fire" LMAO

[WicketyWack]

Shireen repeating Stannis' exact Father of the Year quote back to him: "I am the Princess Shireen of the House Baratheon, and I am your daughter."
So proudly. That ruins me.

And then when you could tell the flames hit her by the way her screams changed. God that was disturbing. Give that kid an Emmy.

[Mya Stone]

Rape hasn't happened in the show for the last couple of episodes. We've let the rape talk happen organically. But I will not stand by and watch yet another episode thread retread this. Take it elsewhere.

[WicketyWack]

To cheer myself up, I've rewatched Drogon's entrance about 10 times so far, and I'm not done. LOVE me some dragon rage.

[Mya Stone]

To cheer myself up, I've rewatched Drogon's entrance about 10 times so far, and I'm not done. LOVE me some dragon rage.

I've taken to watching this to cheer up:

[Catherinewriter]

I simply do not understand. Davos knew this was coming and could have spirited Shireen out of town, or set up something that suggested she died, or some goddamn thing. I have love Davos more than almost any other character because of what I perceived to be his character. Now I'm lost.

 

This is unacceptable. Stannis and Melissandre must die. They must. 

[wayne67]

I've already watched the last ten minutes like 4 times already. I don't care about the rest of the episode. Mostly because it was boring. Dorne is boring. Arya and her long winded revenge on minor characters is boring. Stannis has and always will be boring.

[Philbert]

 

That same actor also played a creeper on THC's Vikings.

 

 

Right, the King of Mercia I believe who raped his young niece repeatedly and then handed her over to his son and his buddies when he was through with her. Yeah, way to avoid typecasting dude.

[The Mormegil]

According to the show, Oberyn has 5 illegitimate children.  The 3 Sand Snakes are the 3 eldest, and Ellaria is mother to 2 of them.  I'll assume the last 2 children are much younger than the ones we have seen.

 

Oberyn told Cersei last season that he had 8 daughters.

 

Elleria is the mother of 4 of them.

 

Tyene is one of them but it's not been stated on the show AFAIK if Nymeria is as well.

[paigow]

This is a way to get people to rush down to the place where her remaining two dragons are chained and kill them fast.

Not sure who would volunteer for this job.....

[crookedjackson44]

Enough with the Stannis hate.  The plot line, as someone noted upthread, is an old and honored one taken straight from Greek mythology: Agamemnon's sacrifice of his daughter Iphigenia for better weather.  If it works and Stannis takes Winterfell, kills Roose and Ramsay Bolton, and frees Sansa, will it have been worth it?  I cringed and cried at Shireen's death too - it was absolutely horrible, but I don't hate TV characters, because they're TV characters, after all.

 

And I really appreciate HBO for producing series that defy narrative conventions.  The Sopranos did this before the Games of Thrones.  We are so used to stories where there is resolution to the tale, where good conquers evil, where there is justice.  But life isn't like that - too often evil people prosper and never have to pay for their crimes (see Job), and good folk suffer needlessly and without any redemption or satisfaction.  Game of Thrones posits an cruel and indifferent world, and the writers and producers have the freedom to write without absolute regard to the audience's conventional desires.  This is the reason I've subscribed to HBO for many years - its productions are superior to most films that Hollywood makes these days.

[izabella]

Stannis has been told over and over again he's the last hope for humanity. If he doesn't do something drastic, he and his men (and all hope for humanity) die in freezing agony in the next couple weeks.

 

Put in those terms, what's the life of one 12-year-old girl with greyscale compared to the rest of the human race?

 

Stannis is an ambitious fool who wants to believe what Melisandre is telling him.  She's the only one telling him he's the last hope for humanity.  He should have asked Mel exactly what the LoL would do for Stannis and his men if he sacrificed his daughter.  And if the LoL is so powerful and all, why does he need Stannis or sacrifices?  Why doesn't he just save Westeros from the White Walkers himself? 

 

Anyway...what was the point of giving Shireen grayscale?  I had hoped it would give her some kind of magical powers that would be awesomely useful at some strategic point in the future, but it seems not.  So why bother giving her grayscale at all? 

[Macbeth]

I simply do not understand. Davos knew this was coming and could have spirited Shireen out of town, or set up something that suggested she died, or some goddamn thing. I have love Davos more than almost any other character because of what I perceived to be his character. Now I'm lost.

 

I don't think Davos really had any options.  The man is a Pirate and he was in the middle of a blizzard far away from the sea. 

 

I think Davos really thought that when it came right down to it - there was no way Stannis would kill his own daughter. It ended up that Shireen's mother couldn't do it and she had been a religious fanatic all along.

[ihartcoffee]

About Drogon knowing when to show up...my thought is that the last time we saw him near her, she was alone, on top of the tower, in a state of mental distress. Second time, she's also in distress, surrounded by her enemies and a few seconds away from certain death. I think Drogon senses when she's in distress and comes to her. I haven't read the books so I don't know if this is the way it works, but I think it works sorta like that.

I watched one of those inside look videos where the show writers discuss that scene. They don't out right say she was summoning him. She was supposed to be resigning herself to the fate of death. Drogon can sense her distress. They said Targaryans are linked emotionally to their dragons.

[MrWhyt]

Anyway...what was the point of giving Shireen grayscale?  I had hoped it would give her some kind of magical powers that would be awesomely useful at some strategic point in the future, but it seems not.  So why bother giving her grayscale at all?

why bother not giving her grayscale?

[LittleIggy]

Ditto to what everyone said about Stannis. I want Ramsey to die after he flays Stannis and his witch.

[peggy06]

You know who else has king's blood? Stannis. The Lord of Light wants any more sacrifices, he'll have to Mannis up. Right? For the greater good?

[SimoneS]

I just rewatched the fighting pit scenes. Just great stuff. I am even more impressed by the choreography of the action and CGI for Drogon and Dany particularly for a tv show with a limited budget. There was so much going on. It must have take forever to film. This time around, I realized that Jorah threw a spear, not a sword. Dany could not bring herself to go back on her word, but his devotion to her saved her life and won back her love. Damn, the Sons of the Harpies were butchering everyone. The hysteria as people ran any and every where to escape was well done. There were few people left alive in the stands as far as I could see.

 

I am convinced that Drogon sensed Daenerys' emotional distress which is why he showed up at that moment and attacked her enemies. Tyrion's terror surrounded by the Harpies was surpassed by his reaction to Drogon. It was clearly the first time, he really understood the danger of dragons and Dany's power because her connection to them. Kudos on the show for having Dany wearing boots when she climbed on Drogon and not heels. I think that Dany is going to become stronger now that she has figured out how to control her dragons. It is time for her to marshall her army and head to Westeros to claim the Iron Throne. Hopefully, she makes it before the Wall falls to the Whitewalkers. I think that her three dragons will the key to defeating the Whitewalkers.

Edited June 9, 2015 by SimoneS

[nono]

Maybe Dany is unlikeable to some not because she is a woman with power, but because she's a Game of Thrones character with power.

[izabella]

I'm mostly neutral on Dany, in a detached way.  In the first season, I felt I got to know her and her story was interesting and I felt something for her as a character.  But she hasn't done much talking the last few seasons, so now I feel distant from her.  Tyrion is her opposite - we know everything he's thinking and feeling about everything because he's always telling someone about it.

[FozzyBear]

I simply do not understand. Davos knew this was coming and could have spirited Shireen out of town, or set up something that suggested she died, or some goddamn thing. I have love Davos more than almost any other character because of what I perceived to be his character. Now I'm lost.

This is unacceptable. Stannis and Melissandre must die. They must.

Maybe he knew, but didn't know. Not for sure anyway. Or maybe he tried to do something (like hire someone to take care of her if anything went wrong) that didn't work out. Anyway, I'm hoping there's more to this story. And that it ends with Davos taking his rage and grief out on the Red Witch. This season isn't doing much to champion religion.

[Pete Martell]

That's horrible but it's not rape. Theon didn't mind being aroused--it's what Ramsey did, and the fact that the girls knew what he was going to do, that makes it horrible. 

 

Rape is not arousal. Rape is the forcible penetration of one person by another, even if an inanimate object is used. There have been two threats of rape on the show, to men. The first was when someone threatened to rape Jaime with his own severed hand. The second was when Ramsey had his own man attempt to rape Theon, so that he could "save" Theon from him, earning his trust. The man yelled "you little bastard" as he died, because no doubt he had orders to rape Theon and was just carrying them out. Neither of these is particularly funny to anybody except the one making the threat. That is how that sort of thing is done, and so it would be weird and unrealistic not to portray the ridicule that generally accompanies this kind of threat. That doesn't mean the audience is supposed to join in, or think it's funny. We're supposed to be a bit horrified.

 

I remember Theon mostly being disoriented and only getting involved after they were working on him.

 

(I'd forgotten the previous rape attempt)

 

I'm not sure how the show wants us to see rape, but I think they've whitewashed enough of Theon's story that it seems easy for many to see him as a joke and to cheer Ramsay on. I thought after what he did to Sansa that might change, but no, he's still popular with many.

And I really appreciate HBO for producing series that defy narrative conventions.  The Sopranos did this before the Games of Thrones.  We are so used to stories where there is resolution to the tale, where good conquers evil, where there is justice.  But life isn't like that - too often evil people prosper and never have to pay for their crimes (see Job), and good folk suffer needlessly and without any redemption or satisfaction. 

 

I would respect this more if the show did not continually sell this as "shocking" and "edgy." It's not shocking after 5 seasons. It's predictable and tedious. And it stopped being similar to real life ages ago for me - nothing about Ramsay, the superpowered stud who loves to pleasure sexy ladies in between rapes and beatings and is super cool with knives and can destroy the supplies of armies through his badass stealth - feels real to me. It's something that even old school Bond villains would likely roll their eyes at.

 

There's also the relative dishonesty of still trying to push the idea of "good" people when they have little to no interest in said people. They either make them into victims repeating the same misery season after season (Sansa), blank slates with indicipherable characterization (Dany, Jaime, Arya) or make them into pouting children who always end up in the corner making a sad face, no matter what they go through (Brienne, Jon). They don't even know how to do a proper hero journey for someone like Jon, who should be ripe for it. He sees untold horrors, and...we see him go back to The Wall and have a sulk because people are mean to him.

 

I'm sure one could say that's realistic too, but it's not very entertaining (to me).

 

Other than their beloved Tyrion or Bronn and their endless array of witty, interchangeable asides, they don't seem to have all that much ability to write for much of anyone at this point.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Pete Martell

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Right, the King of Mercia I believe who raped his young niece repeatedly and then handed her over to his son and his buddies when he was through with her. Yeah, way to avoid typecasting dude.

She got passed around to his royal buddies.

When her oldest brother came of age, him and uncle were tag teaming.

Very sad.

[Hecate7]

Stannis is an ambitious fool who wants to believe what Melisandre is telling him.  She's the only one telling him he's the last hope for humanity.  He should have asked Mel exactly what the LoL would do for Stannis and his men if he sacrificed his daughter.  And if the LoL is so powerful and all, why does he need Stannis or sacrifices?  Why doesn't he just save Westeros from the White Walkers himself? 

 

Anyway...what was the point of giving Shireen grayscale?  I had hoped it would give her some kind of magical powers that would be awesomely useful at some strategic point in the future, but it seems not.  So why bother giving her grayscale at all? 

 

Shireen's greyscale would explain why Stannis and Selyse were not in any negotiations to marry her off to anyone. It would be appropriate, at her age, to explore the possibility of wedding her to Robin Arryn, Tommen Baratheon (were he not a bastard in Stannis' eyes), Bran or Rickon Stark, or even Trystane Martell. It is also more interesting than just another princess, and gave us a girl who was neither a fighter tomboy like Arya, nor a beautiful girly girl like Sansa, but rather, someone most female readers could identify with. A bookish girl.

 

It is easier to be a bookish girl in a house with books--ie, a noble or royal house. And it is a lot easier to be left alone to read the books, if you're not constantly having dancing and needlepoint and charm school and prettiness lessons, and being dragged away from your books to meet this or that prince. Illness has historically steered many a young well-born person towards his or her books.

[WicketyWack]

Anyway...what was the point of giving Shireen grayscale?  I had hoped it would give her some kind of magical powers that would be awesomely useful at some strategic point in the future, but it seems not.  So why bother giving her grayscale at all? 

Maybe to prove that Stannis actually did agonize over the decision to sacrifice her?

When she was a baby and first came down with the disease, he could have done the "easy" thing by killing her then, or sending her off to live with the Stone Men. Instead he summoned every maester, every healer, every apothecary from the far corners of the world to try and save her. They stopped the disease and led her horribly disfigured, which in Westeros (and especially in noble circles) was a shameful burden on a family. He made those decisions because he loved her. We have to believe that he still does, and did, and that he genuinely feels like he's doing the right thing not just for his own ambitions for the crown, but for the greater good. 

 

And now I can't believe I just defended a guy who burned his child at the stake. What have you turned me into, Show? 

[Hecate7]

I remember Theon mostly being disoriented and only getting involved after they were working on him.

 

(I'd forgotten the previous rape attempt)

 

I'm not sure how the show wants us to see rape, but I think they've whitewashed enough of Theon's story that it seems easy for many to see him as a joke and to cheer Ramsay on. I thought after what he did to Sansa that might change, but no, he's still popular with many.

 

That is more about them, than about the show or the writers or anything that's actually in the story. I don't see a lot of Ramsey fans around here, except of the "this is the worst villain yet, can we please keep him for awhile before we move on to another who's supposed to be worse than he is?" variety.

 

I find Ramsey quite realistic, actually. I knew boys like him growing up. They are, thank God, quite rare, but Ramsey is much like Joffrey. There are plenty of serial killers who are a lot like Ramsey. I think people who like Ramsey are probably the same people who hate Sansa, Tyrion, Jon Snow, and Brienne, and find all of the "good" characters very dull and boring.

 

This show isn't really that invested in "good." Even Ned, Sansa, Tyrion, Brienne, and Jon Snow have done a few things they are justifiably not proud of.

[CletusMusashi]

Daario to Hizdahr:  "Shut your mouth."

 

Instant fan. 

Poor Hizdahr. Even when he was a king, the other high rollers publicly treated him like he was Meg Griffin.

[Unknown poster]

Poor Hizdahr. Even when he was a king, the other high rollers publicly treated him like he was Meg Griffin.

It's been said before, but they actually made me feel bad forcHizdahr in that scene. After all, he was the only one offering any kind of real point, (flawed though it may be) and the "good guys" basically just respond by telling him "well, you're wrong and an idiot, so shut up!" Not exactly a ringing endorsement for Dany as ruler, or Tyrion as advisor.

[Pete Martell]

I find Ramsey quite realistic, actually. I knew boys like him growing up. They are, thank God, quite rare, but Ramsey is much like Joffrey. There are plenty of serial killers who are a lot like Ramsey. I think people who like Ramsey are probably the same people who hate Sansa, Tyrion, Jon Snow, and Brienne, and find all of the "good" characters very dull and boring.

 

The main difference for me between Ramsay and Joffrey is the show was honest about his failings. He didn't get super bad-ass moments or moments to show off his hot bod, etc.  I don't really know why we needed sexytimes interrupted by shirtless knife-wielding in order to write Asha/Yara out. I don't know why we needed sexytimes with Myranda this season. I don't even know if they want people to see Ramsay as love-to-hate. I don't have any idea how they see Ramsay. Even what could have been a very dark moment (what he did to Sansa) has felt oddly muted to me. 

 

It didn't bother me that much until this season, because I just don't know how to follow the narrative anymore. If we aren't supposed to root for one side over the other, I guess I understand the idea, but I feel like the result onscreen has mostly reduced the Northern canvas to amorphous blobs. I guess I should just root for Brienne and Sansa, and I'd like to, but instead it's just difficult to care, because their stories never go anywhere and I no longer see a core identity in either of them.

[The Mighty Peanut]

Stannis, Meryn gross child rapist Trant, and every Bolton can all die horribly, I mean really sick depraved shit that makes the Theon treatment look like a day at the fucking spa.

[morgankobi]

Stannis is an ambitious fool who wants to believe what Melisandre is telling him.  She's the only one telling him he's the last hope for humanity.  He should have asked Mel exactly what the LoL would do for Stannis and his men if he sacrificed his daughter.  And if the LoL is so powerful and all, why does he need Stannis or sacrifices?  Why doesn't he just save Westeros from the White Walkers himself? 

 

Anyway...what was the point of giving Shireen grayscale?  I had hoped it would give her some kind of magical powers that would be awesomely useful at some strategic point in the future, but it seems not.  So why bother giving her grayscale at all? 

 

I think that is the first time I've seen the acronym of the "Lord of Light" and it's cracking me up (pun perhaps intended). Can't believe it never occurred to me before.

 

In addition to making her more of a special and sympathetic character, Shireen's grayscale serves to show us that it can be cured/kept at bay. (Good luck, Ser Jorah!)

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I don't trust the Sand Snake lady. She is up to something. And I think that something is going to lead to her brother's death. He's the one keeping the peace between Dorne and the rest, with him dead, she can go get any kind of revenge she feels like.

Not to split hairs but Doran is Ellaria's brother in law, not her brother. Oberyn was Doran's brother.

Daario to Hizdahr: "Shut your mouth."

Instant fan.

Poor Hizdahr. Even when he was a king, the other high rollers publicly treated him like he was Meg Griffin.

To be fair, Daario telling him to shut up (this time) was less about Hizdahr and more about Dany and her complicated feelings about Jorah. I still wanted to high five Daario for telling him to shut it though.

[Ambrosefolly]

The main difference for me between Ramsay and Joffrey is the show was honest about his failings. He didn't get super bad-ass moments or moments to show off his hot bod, etc.  I don't really know why we needed sexytimes interrupted by shirtless knife-wielding in order to write Asha/Yara out. I don't know why we needed sexytimes with Myranda this season. I don't even know if they want people to see Ramsay as love-to-hate. I don't have any idea how they see Ramsay. Even what could have been a very dark moment (what he did to Sansa) has felt oddly muted to me. 

 

It didn't bother me that much until this season, because I just don't know how to follow the narrative anymore. If we aren't supposed to root for one side over the other, I guess I understand the idea, but I feel like the result onscreen has mostly reduced the Northern canvas to amorphous blobs. I guess I should just root for Brienne and Sansa, and I'd like to, but instead it's just difficult to care, because their stories never go anywhere and I no longer see a core identity in either of them.

I can't believe I am saying, but I am almost wistful for Joffrey now (and would definitely trade Roose for Tywin). 

 

As for Sansa, what bothers me about her storyline this is the show went out of its way to make Sansa a trapped abused wife. It was one thing when Sansa marriage was arranged to the "son" of her father's best friend and Sansa was a preteen, quite another that Sansa willing placed herself to the family that openly betrayed hers. I don't hold Littlefinger in high regard, but Sansa is a valuable asset and  I agree Littlefinger wouldn't place such an asset with someone he knew very little about and without any type of back up.

Edited June 9, 2015 by SilverStormm
Book ref edited out.

[CletusMusashi]

Indeed.  When Tyrion described her last week as the baby girl with nothing but her name - no money, no army, no land (and when you think about it, no family, no allies, no homebase) and now she's acquired all of it.  I remembered back through the seasons and what she has been through and done to acquire these things.  She is to me the most impressive.  She was sold to a warlord king by her horrible, molesting brother and managed to get him to love AND respect her and even dispatch her brother for her.  She "birthed" the dragons - something nobody has done for centuries.  She went through the dessert and 

still manages to fit into that fabulous dress!

[Last Time Lord]

Just watched my first episode of Game Of Thrones since the season 2 finale.

I was hearing a lot of good things about it on Facebook, and was tempted to check it out.

Did not disappoint, especially the ending.

[bbolto]

The main difference for me between Ramsay and Joffrey is the show was honest about his failings. He didn't get super bad-ass moments or moments to show off his hot bod, etc.  I don't really know why we needed sexytimes interrupted by shirtless knife-wielding in order to write Asha/Yara out. I don't know why we needed sexytimes with Myranda this season. I don't even know if they want people to see Ramsay as love-to-hate. I don't have any idea how they see Ramsay. Even what could have been a very dark moment (what he did to Sansa) has felt oddly muted to me. 

 

The problem I have with Ramsay is that his badassness has been so unconvincing and arbitrary. The Ramsay - Yara confrontation was super stupid* and in my eyes just made the Ironborn look bad (and they already looked bad; faithless losers who can only defeat unarmed fishermen and undefended cities; confront them and they'll stab each other trying to get away; Ragnar Lothbrok can't believe he's thematically related to these buncha jokers. I will always talk shit about the Ironborn). The bit with Stannis' army, well, I was relieved because I feared something stupider, but burning down all the food stores and was it supposed to be half of 3000 horses seems a bit much for 20 dudes even if they "know the North like we never will". (I seem to recall Cesare doing similar stunts on The Borgias but if memory serves that was gunpowder which helpfully explodes when you light it.) It really kinda feels like, as someone said in the book thread, he's one of the writers' dark Mary Sue or something.

 

Compare him to the Clegane brothers, both of whom were set up to be scary evil people and both of whom repeatedly lived up to their reputations. I never felt like The Hound or The Mountain had plot armor. Conversely, Joffrey didn't need plot armor either, he had the kingdom as his armor and boy did he hide behind it! So yeah, I don't love to hate Ramsay. Ideally his plot armor would go poof and he'd just straight up fall down a flight of stairs next episode and Stannis can breach the gates to find him babbling.

 

* I recently realized that scene would have been mostly saved if Ramsay had a kennel of dire wolves instead of regular hounds. Why should the Starks be the only ones to tame dire wolves? Brand consistency?