Kelly File: Duggar Interview Part 2 2015.06.05

[elainebenis]

I've changed my opinion about the police report.  Previously, I agreed that it was poor redaction.  However, for various reasons, I have access to several (completely unrelated) police reports that required a lot of redaction due to minors involved.  In each case, because I know the subjects, I know who the victims are.  The redaction work is identical to what is present in the Duggar report.  The major issue with the Duggar report is that (1) the public knows who the Duggars are because they put themselves on tv, magazines, books, and tour talks and (2) the parents and the perpetrator acknowledged the crimes on the day they were revealed.  

 

It's always a difficult line to balance the public's right to know about criminal activity with the privacy of victims, especially minor victims of sexual crimes.  The police department did the best they could in redacting this report as much as possible.  Regardless of what sort of magazine InTouch is, they still need to at least try to prove the claims they make, which is why releasing a public report before it was destroyed was their job rather than to make the claims and allude to a report.  

 

It's very unfortunate that the sibling victims don't get to enjoy the same sort of privacy the fifth victim does.  I have a lot of sympathy for them and I wish this had never happened to them.  I also wished they'd never been made to be in the public sphere and I blame their parents as well as inadequate child labor laws that don't do enough to protect children on reality tv.  But I don't think laws should change about public criminal information.  In 99.9% of cases, the victims identity will be properly protected because 99.9% of the population aren't public figures. The legally and properly released police report is not to blame.  

 

This. The police report was a public record at the point in time that it was requested. Period. Had everything but the absolute bare minimum - date, charge, adult's names - been redacted, we'd still be able to figure out that something went down. And that 'something' was alleged molestation of minors involving JB + M Duggar, who happen to have 19 kids and a TV show. Throw in those years-old internet rumors and stir. The Duggars would be facing the same questions and backlash - perhaps more.

 

Ultimately, the blame lies on the Duggers who, for whatever reason, did not bother to get the police record sealed until too late.

[Joe Jitsu913]

My issue lies with their entitlement. They act like they deserve a show and why is the mean, librul media punishing them by taking away their show?? They are even lucky they have a tv show and all of the perks that go along with it. They are relying on this show for income. Without this show, Jessa would be working as a cashier at Aldi. When this show ends and hopefully soon, I think the Duggars will be in for a very rude awakening. Jessa might actually have to get a job to pay for all that cheap makeup.

Edited June 6, 2015 by Joe Jitsu913

[CoolMom]

If the fondling was as minor as the Duggars describe, and as minor as the police report describes, the Jim Bob and Michelle are morons for going to the police in the first place. It just doesn't add up.

 

Maybe it was a "scared straight" tactic?  It was very popular in the 80's and 90's not to far off from the time period of the events.

 

I would like to know who exactly these licensed, accredited counselors are - or, who provided this licensing and accreditation. If they're licensed by ATI or accredited by some for-profit church-affiliated Bible college, or something similar, it's BS to me. 

 

The question of an accredited or licensed therapist is bothering me a lot.  There are plenty of therapies that are non-licensed/non-accredited that are accepted by most people as acceptable; self help groups come to mind.  Not only are most not accredited or certified they are also run by peers (people who have walked the same walk) but this type of therapy has been shown to have amazing results even with the lack of a "professional" overseeing them. 

[galax-arena]

Josh was wrong the family has forgiven him, they have taken action to rectify the situation and all we do (media, tabloids, etc) is put them down and question them. If cps says it's good and they are safe then who are we to say otherwise.

I’m just going to copy and paste what I wrote in the “Part 1” thread:

 

Except the Duggars are using this center stage platform to minimize the abuse and harm done. "It was just over the clothes, really! Only for a few seconds! And the girls were mostly asleep!" And that is such a socially irresponsible thing to promote. If the Duggar girls themselves feel like no lasting harm was done due to how "mild" the abuse was, more power to them as individuals - and I mean that, because obviously not having lasting harm is preferable - but there is a difference between saying that it's something that you've personally moved on from, and that you still love your parents and brother, and anybody who doesn't like it can go choke on a fig leaf, and completely minimizing/handwaving the abuse because hey, the girls were asleep and it was over the clothes, which sends the message that it ain't no big thing in general, and that's just a messed up thing to say. Just because a victim isn't aware of what's going on at the time doesn't mean that it can't leave scars.

I personally wouldn't tell a soul after seeing these girls dragged through the mud.

My own experience with molestation was similar to the Duggars' in that it was for the most part "mild over-the-clothes touching" and honestly, if I were younger and an impressionable Duggar fan, I wouldn't have told a soul because the girls had just reinforced to me how it was no big deal and I was silly for having any lingering issues from it. 

 

And I do think the media blew this story up and made it a bigger deal than it should have been. The lgbt community along with others are resentful toward the duggars bc they are outspoken of their views.

Why shouldn’t the media have blown this story up? And I think it’s a bit of a misleading understatement to say that they were simply outspoken and that's all there was to it. Someone like Phil Robertson (of Duck Dynasty) is outspoken about his bigotry, but as far as I know, he isn’t actively working to strip LGBT people of their civil rights. By contrast, at the time the Duggar scandal came out, Josh was hatemongering for a group that demonized the LGBT population as sick perverted pedophiles; another FRC spokesman wanted homosexuality to be criminalized. And Michelle successfully managed to defeat an anti-discrimination ordinance in Fayetteville by likening all transgender people to child molesters. So yeah, people were resentful, and for good reason. You had the Duggars actively stumping to marginalize an already persecuted population under the guise of "traditional family values" and it turned out that their own traditional family values were bullshit. Imagine that if a news story had come out about an LGBT couple and their family dealing with the same issue. Do we think that Josh as spokesman for FRC Action wouldn't have jumped on that? 

 

Sorry, Duggars, as you sow, so shall you reap. 

Edited June 6, 2015 by galax-arena

[bluebonnet]

My issue lies with their entitlement. They act like they deserve a show and why is the mean, librul media punishing them by taking away their show?? They are even lucky they have a tv show and all of the perks that go along with it. They are relying on this show for income. Without this show, Jessa would be working as a cashier at Aldi. When this show ends and hopefully soon, I think the Duggars will be in for a very rude awakening. Jessa might actually have to get a job to pay for all that cheap makeup.

To be fair, Jessa has had a job for the past ten years, give or take.  Working in reality tv might seem like glitz and glamour, but it's definitely work.  The worst part is that the job includes being on display in one's own private home for long periods of time as well as all of the extras that go with publicizing in order to make it profitable enough to continue working and Jessa was a minor, a very young one, when she was put to work.  

[SpottedCoachDog]

I read in here someone said young girls look up to jill and Jessa and may think since they aren't making a big deal then the young girls shouldnt. I agree that people look up to them but on another point, those young girls who do look up to jill and Jessa now see that privacy isn't a thing and when police tell you it's confident and won't get out that you can't really believe them. I personally wouldn't tell a soul after seeing these girls dragged through the mud.

Its really hard listening to them down play what happened to them. That's the exact thing that makes it so hard for victims to come forward and to press charges. I really hope no one who is a victim hears that and decides not to speak up thinking what happened to them was no big deal. It is a big deal. Victims should feel like they can speak. We need them to feel they can speak up and people will be there for them their parents, the police, etc. I have no problems with Jill and Jessa being mad at InTouch but that's something JimBob should have considered when he decided to put his family on tv.

I'm the one who said Jill and Jessa were role models and might have influence on potential victims. There has always been the fear that if you tell "outsiders" will find out. The difference is 99% of the public aren't famous and don't need to expect the cover of a magazine will follow. Trivializing their experience might make Josh and their parents feel better, but it honestly is a disservice to any abuse survivor- them most of all.

The abuse happened in 2002-2003. The first special was in 2004. The police report was in 2006. This was not something that was "behind" them, but Jim Boob put fame before family. They can claim that they thought the records were sealed, but when you've confessed at church and talked to law enforcement and counselors? You're tempting fate that everybody will keep your secrets. Fate bit them in the ass.

[SmallTownMom]

Just watched the first 5 minutes of the girls' interview, and I just can't finish.

 

Did anybody else thing it was weird that there was so much smiling?

 

And Jill, like, can't ever finish, you know, a sentence without, like giggling!  She had to even think about how old she was and giggle about that?!

 

Strange little Duggarbots, aren't they?

[BitterApple]

I understand that anyone would be nervous talking about sexual abuse, but these people have been on TV for over a decade. Not to mention they knew well in advance what questions would be asked and had ample time to prepare. They should definitely be more polished speakers given how long they've been in the public eye.

[galax-arena]

Did anybody else thing it was weird that there was so much smiling?

And Jill, like, can't ever finish, you know, a sentence without, like giggling!  She had to even think about how old she was and giggle about that?!

I smile and laugh a lot when I'm nervous. It sucks because no one ever takes you seriously. :( 

[Joe Jitsu913]

To be fair, Jessa has had a job for the past ten years, give or take. Working in reality tv might seem like glitz and glamour, but it's definitely work. The worst part is that the job includes being on display in one's own private home for long periods of time as well as all of the extras that go with publicizing in order to make it profitable enough to continue working and Jessa was a minor, a very young one, when she was put to work.

Jessa and the rest of the adult Duggars may walk away at anytime whatsoever. They claim they think for themselves and aren't brainwashed...so prove it. Step away from the TLC Famewhore express and get an education and a career. Yet, they're still here courting the ebil, librul media.

They certainly don't take part in this show out of the goodness of their hearts.

[parisprincess]

I am so ready for this family to go away.  They've been celebrated for having a gazillion kids and have used the show as a platform to push THEIR agenda, which included Michelle making robocalls lying and referring to all transgenders as child predators with past convictions, as well as JimBob saying that molestation and incest should be capital crimes, while downplaying his own son's crime. 

 

Although they have very strict religious beliefs, sometimes their behavior comes across as totally different than what they preach.  Example: Michelle almost had a heart attack when, while forming a prayer circle, Ben held the hand of the girl he was courting, but it was OK for him to hold the hand of her little underage sister.  Females can't show their knees, but a camera can practically be stuck up their wahoo while giving birth, and modesty is SO important, but JimBob gropes Michelle all day long while reminding the kids that "YOU can't do this".  Then the young daughters, who have never had so much as a group date, write a book on relationships.  Good lord, these people really believe they are morally superior, when they are just a judgmental, entitled bunch. 

 

After this last debacle, I think I've OD'd on this family.  I've seen enough of the pregnancies, birthings, travelling around the world as "ugly Americans", and listened to enough talk of purposing, precious blessings, and what the lord has laid upon their hearts.  If I never hear of them again, THAT will be a blessing!  I'm ready to move on to the Willis's, who actually know the dozen kids that they themselves are raising, and who actually have talent and do interesting things.  Hey Duggars, see ya, wouldn't wanna be ya! 

[fliptopbox]

I smile and laugh a lot when I'm nervous. It sucks because no one ever takes you seriously. :( 

So do I. It's gotten me in trouble a few times actually.

[bluebonnet]

Jessa and the rest of the adult Duggars may walk away at anytime whatsoever. They claim they think for themselves and aren't brainwashed...so prove it. Step away from the TLC Famewhore express and get an education and a career. Yet, they're still here courting the ebil, librul media.

They certainly don't take part in this show out of the goodness of their hearts.

I don't disagree.  My point is simply that they've had a job, and a difficult one, for 10+/- years so getting a cashier's job at Aldi might be less pay, but it wouldn't be the first job nor a particularly difficult job, comparatively speaking.  And still, even if Jessa worked at Aldi, I'd probably expect her to take steps to keep her job if she was threatened with being fired.  It just happens that the steps needing to be taken to keep a tv job are different, and also create illogical inconsistencies.  

[JenCarroll]

Two other things the weird usage of the words "whenever" and "we" when they clearly didn't fit the narrative that Jill and Jessa were presenting.

That usage of "whenever" for "when" is just a regionalism. It's very common.

[Darknight]

Jess and Jill are grown adults with the mind of a 12yo. If they forgive Josh fine. But don't go on tv saying it's not that big of deal and don't go to the authorities if you're being abused. The evil liberal media gave them this show, the interview, the freebies, the magazine spreads. These girls probably didn't think the media could turn on them so quickly. For years people idolized them. Now the shoe is on the other foot. If they truly are being re victimized and don't want the media in their lives then create a private social media account, stop with the interviews, and live life quietly.

[Literata]

My worst fear after all this is that somewhere in America last night, a middle-school-age girl who's being abused watched the interview and ended up telling herself, "It's not a big deal. He's just curious about girls."

Edited June 6, 2015 by Literata

[mbutterfly]

I think the Duggars thought viewers would applaud their making Josh pay for his own therapy, but instead everyone is giving a collective WTF?! He did horrible things, but he was a minor and his parents were legally responsible for him. I wonder if Social Services was privy to this little gem when they were fawning over what aaah-maaaayyy-zinngg parents JimBob and Michelle were.

I agree. I mentioned in the Josh and Anna thread how I remembering our concern about Josh's health these past few months. And there was his less that joyous reaction to the pee stick. He's been waiting for the shoe to drop. i believe he is very possibly suffering in ways that go away beyond whether they keep their show. 

[xls]

I doubt that anyone will agree with me, and that's ok, but I'd like give my feelings on this.

 

After watching JB & M on Wednesday I was furious.  I hated them, and kind of still do.  I hate their smugness, their attitude of entitlement, and how they think that there is only one way to live, and everyone else is 100% wrong in their beliefs.

 

Last night I almost didn't want to watch the J&J interview, but I did. 

 

Watching them, my heart really softened towards them, and I totally believe that they hated what Josh did; they acknowledged that it was horrible and wrong, and I believe them when they said that Josh apologized and asked forgiveness from each of them individually.

 

Granted, very young people can't really understand the full spectrum of what Josh did; but they knew to even some degree that Josh had done something very wrong, THEY felt and still feel that John repented and asked forgiveness, and they gave him forgiveness.

 

Again, I can't stand their parents for every reason that has ever been mentioned on this forum, but I just can't hate on most of them, including Jana, Jill, Jess, Jinger, JoyAnna, and the rest of the younger kids.

 

They were born into this family; I feel they definitely LOVE their parents and siblings.  That the place (in their minds and hearts) where THEY are coming from.  I don't think they were lying about trying to defend the things that have been said about Josh in the media because THEY don't see him like that.  (For the record, I do believe he was a "child molester", because that's exactly what he did, he molested children).  I don't think he is a rapist, and from a lot of research and personal experience, the odds are that he has not gone on to continue to molest children.  But of course I don't really know that for sure.  I don't care about what happens to Josh.

 

Like I said, I felt so much better about the entire thing after seeing Jessa and Jill last night.  I hope and think that their husbands and family will be there for them for emotional support.

 

Those young women deserve peace in their lives, as We ALL do.

 

What ever happens now, I guess is between them and TLC.

 

Again, just my totally humble opinion.

Of course I don't hate the rest of the family ether, i doubt anyone does. I am share concern for the rest of the kids. J&J are way off the mark. "We never claimed to be a perfect family" is NOT the reason everyone is so angry. The molestation, the campaign to cover it up, the slander war on gays and transgendered human beings and the efforts to shine Josh up like a new penny-these are the reasons.IMHO of course.

[Quilt Fairy]

Just this fact tells me that JB and M either have been completely cynical utter pathological liars from the beginning or are frigging insane.

I don't think that's necessarily an either/or proposition.

 

I also don't understand how much more the police report could have been redacted. The most critical phrase pointing to Josh's sisters as the victims was "(redacted).....who live with their parents". If you redact that phrase as well, I think you're left with 2 options: either Josh was sneaking into the bedroom/s of his half a dozen young sisters or he was breaking into other people's houses. The conclusion that he had easy access was always going to make the sisters the likely victims.

 

The Duggars could solve the question of "accredited professional counseling" very easily. Give the name/s of the counselor/s. The counselors would be restricted from privacy laws from discussing the case (or probably even confirming that Josh or his sisters were patients) but the Duggars themselves have no such restriction. And they leave everyone to assume that not giving a name means they can't give a name because the counseling never happened.

 

And lastly I don't know how to put a photo inside a post so I'm just going to give the link and say I didn't even know people could do that with their eyes:

http://gawker.com/the-truth-about-josh-duggars-sham-cult-center-counseli-1709335574

[SnarkyMcSnarkerson]

My worst fear after all this is that somewhere in America last night, a middle-school-age girl who's being abused watched the interview and ended up telling herself, "It's not a big deal. He's just curious about girls."

I've been thinking about this way too much; it's been a rough couple weeks as this brings up a lot of memories. But I've got to say that both interviews were basically the sum of all my fears when I finally told someone what was happening. I was terrified that I was overreacting, that it wasn't a big deal and just a normal thing. Turns out it's not (JOSH!) and I'm so thankful I told a non-Duggar-like person who understood that. And that there wasn't fucking bullshit like these interviews populating my tv before I spoke up, because this would have definitely deterred my terrified 8-year-old self.

So I think it's safe to say that what you described, Literata, has probably already occurred by now. It's maddening and I hope there's an especially awful spot in hell reserved for Boob and MEchelle.

[CofCinci]

"We are not a TV family, we are just a family on TV".

I wonder how much the crisis PR firm paid a writer for that line.

[mywinston]

As much as the first part made me angry, this one just left me sort of sad. Jessa and Jill doing everything in their power to excuse their brother, a man who molested them countless times over the years, to stand up for their parents, the adults that let it happen. They used the same language, the same buzzwords, emphasis on the same things as JB and Michelle said. You see Jill crying and saying to forgive doesn't mean to trust, and you see Jessa not budging an inch to comfort her and you sort of get a feel for the batshit dynamics this family employs. It just made me feel bad, for them and for any "improper touching" victims that might have been watching. Jesus, and I hate to say anything harsh about these girls, because they ARE the victimized party, but what they're perpetuating about their situation, the lies (you were asleep while it happened but gave a full report to the police?) and the laid back attitude they had (Jessa almost COMPLIMENTING Josh on what a slick diddler he was made me shudder) was odd. I feel bad for them because I'm sure that's what they had been raised with and have been living with for the years after the incident, and I'm sure they do love their brother but, dang. They're the chillest people every about being molested, and that almost seems irresponsible.

 

I just hope this show goes off air and all these people take a little time out of condemning other lifestyles and cultures and really take a look at themselves. Introspection never hurt, Duggars. And you need it desperately.

[rulesoftravel]

Well, the Duggarbots are protecting the franchise.   Because, heaven help them if they had to live on a salary paid to do a job they're actually qualified for.    Go away, go far away.   Take all your bad parenting and oddly dressed children with you.

[springtime]

Aldi's would actually be a good place for Ben (or Jessa) to work - They pay good wages for entry level work -and are focused on management training for all.

[debbie311]

I've been a little bit obsessed about this since I first heard about it, and almost moved to tears at times.  Now I feel like, these people are coming from a whole different mindset.  They are able to forgive Josh and move on.  They don't want or need our help or understanding. We can't save the world.  I really don't care what happens to the show from here on out.

[Darknight]

Well, the Duggarbots are protecting the franchise. Because, heaven help them if they had to live on a salary paid to do a job they're actually qualified for. Go away, go far away. Take all your bad parenting and oddly dressed children with you.

Don't know what's the difference between this and asking for a handout. Get up off

Your ass and get a real job Duggars

[Darknight]

I hope Jessa and Jill don't become the faces of child molestation. They're victims but the way they go about this whole thing is sick.

[Muffyn]

Can you imagine Jim Bob as a greeter at Wal-Mart.

He has the perfect too many teeth smile for it, so yes, I can imagine it.  I can also imagine me "accidentally" ramming him with a cart repeatedly.  I'll ask his forgiveness, confess my wrongs, then do it again.  

[truthtalk2014]

Someone mentioned entitlement and that is the vibe they gave off.  Not once did they thank their loyal leghumpers for all the support.  Most celebrity wannabes would have done just that.

 

The more I think about the J & J interview, I am really sad that they didn't take a small moment at the end of the show (instead of saying 2/3 of families have situations like this) and tell anyone going through this, that it is not their fault and they should go talk to someone that they feel safe with. 

 

They have the nerve to talk about relationships and such - before they have any clue WTF they are talking about.  They could have had the opportunity to help many.

[dillpickles]

He has the perfect too many teeth smile for it, so yes, I can imagine it. I can also imagine me "accidentally" ramming him with a cart repeatedly. I'll ask his forgiveness, confess my wrongs, then do it again.

As long as you cry,

[lulee]

This Salon piece isn't a complete transcript but has a lot for anyone looking for a transcript.

 

 

As for Josh being so "changed," I would have put the parents (not the sisters) on the spot about the rumors that Josh frequented strip clubs when he was 18 and 19, which was after his alleged transformation. ETA: My apologies -- I did not mean to imply that I saw going to strip clubs as related to the molestation, only that any change in character wasn't enough of a transformation to prevent him from being observed in other behaviors deemed sinful. I would have said the same if the rumors had been about him out somewhere swearing.

 

As for Megyn Kelly's line of questioning over these interviews, there was little pretense of these be hard-hitting interviews. These were friendly interviews seen as a win-win situation: the Duggars get to present their story with little interruption, let alone challenge, and Fox gets lots of eyeballs on their channel.

Edited June 7, 2015 by lulee

[truthtalk2014]

He has the perfect too many teeth smile for it, so yes, I can imagine it.  I can also imagine me "accidentally" ramming him with a cart repeatedly.  I'll ask his forgiveness, confess my wrongs, then do it again.  

Boy, I hate going to Walmart - but for some reason your post makes me want to do a midnight run.  LMAO!!!

[frenchtoast]

Well if he's looking for paying work he's out of luck. We're all volunteers so we don't get paid. 

[JoanArc]

As long as you cry,

I can jab Kleenex into my eyes.

[RandomX]

I've been thinking about the family dynamics on display in both interviews - "batshit" is right on. 

 

So, OK, the first interview is just the parents, which makes sense. They're the ones who decided how their family would live and that they'd take the big money to be on TV, etc. (OK, technically per ATI/Gothard/etc. JimBob decided, since he's the Head[ship] and The Man In Charge of It All, while Michelle's his adoring helpmeet for Sex on Demand and Making Babies.)

 

But, I don't know, just having Jill and Jessa there, alone on the screen with MK? I'm not sure. I realize, they were there to talk about a very sensitive subject so of course an entourage would be inappropriate. And I'm sure the parents hovering in sight would send the wrong message (coercion, or at least being influenced to Say The Right Things To Protect The Family). But, I dunno, would it have been out of line to see a husband or two, even for a few minutes? As in, these are young guys, recently married, who love and support their wives? You know, the richer or poorer, better or worse, stuff, like this? 

 

So, the Duggar way is to toss the two married daughters up onto the TV screen to talk about difficult things. Alone. Maybe having the husbands there, even as silent support, wouldn't have worked. I don't know. But I'm thinking that it sure was cold of the 'rents to shove those girls out there alone to carry the water for keeping the TV show like that. Wonder if JB ever considered having Derick and Ben there. Because I assume this whole interview was JB's decision, and wouldn't have happened without his OK.

That's why this was about keeping a Jim Bob & Michelle-focused show.

Jessa and Jill would have been better served if they had controlled their interview more and gave people reason to wamt to watch a spinoff.

[bluebonnet]

 

As for Josh being so "changed," I would have put the parents (not the sisters) on the spot about the rumors that Josh frequented strip clubs when he was 18 and 19, which was after his alleged transformation.

 

I don't think that would be relevant.  An adult frequenting an adult establishment where adults have consented to be viewed and touched (though most exotic dancers do not allow touching) is unrelated to child molestation.  

[lulee]

I don't think that would be relevant.  An adult frequenting an adult establishment where adults have consented to be viewed and touched (though most exotic dancers do not allow touching) is unrelated to child molestation.  

To clarify: I'm not saying I see going to strip clubs as directly related to child molestation.  But it seems like in their world view any "change" on his part would have been a specific - and not a global - improvement of his character - if he's going to strip clubs just a few years later.

[truthtalk2014]

I don't think that would be relevant.  An adult frequenting an adult establishment where adults have consented to be viewed and touched (though most exotic dancers do not allow touching) is unrelated to child molestation.  

Thank you!  I could care less if Joshie frequents strip clubs nightly, hires prostitutes or gets tied up in a fetish club.  I just want him to leave the little ones alone. 

[mythoughtis]

If they had just stayed silent after their statements, ended their show, not started another.... Then in a few years the offspring could have gone on missions, and lived their lives. Instead they had to stir up interest again. There is nothing they can say to make this better. Jill and Jessa could have issued a statement about their outrage at being outed as victims. Besides the fact that Derick and Ben didn't sign on for this situation, I am guessing Derick had to work ( interview during the day), and maybe Ben did too. But I firmly believe that Jim Bob and Michelle were within hearing and sight of this interview, just out of camera range.

[bluebonnet]

To clarify: I'm not saying I see going to strip clubs as directly related to child molestation.  But it seems like in their world view any "change" on his part would have been a specific - and not a global - improvement of his character - if he's going to strip clubs just a few years later.

Perhaps a lay person could ask him this question, but I think a journalist would take a lot of heat for that.  I think a more pertinent question might be why such restrictive and punishing safeguards were put in place if Josh were a changed person.  The girls being required to take on all childcare duties and prevented from having a normal relationship with their brothers because Josh made what was described as a silly mistake of curiosity doesn't make sense if they say he was completely recovered from it. 

[JoanArc]

To clarify: I'm not saying I see going to strip clubs as directly related to child molestation.  But it seems like in their world view any "change" on his part would have been a specific - and not a global - improvement of his character - if he's going to strip clubs just a few years later.

I think the incest joke, on national TV, just a few years after the incident proves Josh had little to no real recovery.

Edited June 7, 2015 by JoanArc

[CherryAmes]

I don't think that would be relevant.  An adult frequenting an adult establishment where adults have consented to be viewed and touched (though most exotic dancers do not allow touching) is unrelated to child molestation.

 

In their world though is it really?  They seem to behave as if molesting a sister is on the same level as looking at a Playboy magazine.  And since in their world going to a strip club would be a pretty seriously Bad Thing it does beg the question of whether their approach to Josh's little problem actually worked the way they claim it did.

[bluebonnet]

In their world though is it really?  They seem to behave as if molesting a sister is on the same level as looking at a Playboy magazine.  And since in their world going to a strip club would be a pretty seriously Bad Thing it does beg the question of whether their approach to Josh's little problem actually worked the way they claim it did.

If the intent is to rigorously question their system of beliefs, then it could be very relevant.  It might even become relevant if they are being challenged on statements that touching non-consenting children is simple teenage curiosity while also decrying pornography and other sex work that is often targeted by teenagers and young adults to sate curiosity.  I just worry that without that very specific context, simply asking about this puts the interviewer in the position of being the one comparing legal adult behavior with criminal behavior.  

[spidermiss2426]

Totally off topic, but I just searched to see if there was a facebook page entitled "Megyn Kelly's Nose" kind of like "Pippa Middleton's Butt."  There wasn't.

 

On topic, that picture meme a few pages back of them praying, surrounding Jill and Derick... Do safeguards not count in Prayer?  Because isn't that the face of a child near Derick's lap?  Shouldn't that be off limits if side hugging and hide and go seek and sitting on laps and babysitting and all that jazz needs to be controlled?  Or does God protect you in prayer?  I'm seriously asking, not trying to be a snarky you-know-what.

[doodlebug]

Boob is an idiot. "As a parent, you're not a mandatory reporter". Bullshit! You'd rather protect your son, than the children he harmed.

Because, apparently in Boobville, the only reason to report child molestation to the authorities is if you are liable to be prosecuted if you don't.  Otherwise, cover it up, ignore it; after all, it's just your daughters.

[Tabbygirl521]

I have tried to give my heathen brain a rest from all this incomprehensible (to me) nonsense that Ma and Pa Duggar foist onto their kids. But somehow these thoughts bubble up: the whole Gothard movement thinks all men are barely-contained rapists. So did this somehow give tacit permission to Josh - and all their friends, if JimBob is to be believed - to be predatory sneaky feel coppers? Gosh, Mom and Dad, you were right!

I mean, apparently as soon as a boy reaches puberty, he has to be handled as a potential sex offender. What the HELL?

[Marigny]

I was actually thinking, earlier, how interesting it would be to see almost any one of the Duggars plonked down in a season of "Dancing with the Stars"....

For the love of God, please don't speak that into existence. 

[fliptopbox]

The Duggars don't believe in dancing, do they? I'm not sure they're even allowed to listen to regular music, outside of hymns and classical pieces. Even "Christian rock" is too worldly for them, so I highly doubt they'd agree to do something like Dancing With the Stars. Plus, that would involve touching the opposite sex so we certainly couldn't have that!! It would be NIKEs all around!!!

[General Days]

I'm a Christian, but I'm also way politically liberal (pro same sex marriage, pro LBGTQ+ rights, etc.). I'm not going to bore any of you by explaining how or why. I am largely offended by insular Christians who are so judgmental of others, because they do not honor my understanding of Christ. That said, I try not to judge these people, because I think they're on the same journey I am (and that we all are), even if they don't recognize it.

Here are my issues:

In the early pages of this thread, I read a lot of comments stating or implying that Jill and Jessa lied in their interview. There were so many, that I spent the day RE-reviewing the police report documents, to find the lies. I found none. I can go into detail, should you need me to do so, but to simplify, I need you to tell me (first) where you think Jessa and Jill did lie, because I do not believe they did. Do I believe they minimized or obfuscated? Sure, a little, but basically, I think they were truthful.

As far as I can tell (and dear mods, I am not trying to out or identify anyone, I'm just being pragmatic), Jill, Jessa, and the non-sister Babysitter are the three (of five) survivors (I hate to call people 'victims'), and are the three who were asleep when they were groped. Three of the five survivors have said, since at least 2006, that they were asleep when Josh groped them, and did not know any better until the parents [the Duggar parents] told them they were groped in their sleep. When reading the report of the non-sibling, I was shocked to realize she never knew anything, until the Duggars contacted her.

Here is my first pause. I am not excusing Josh's behavior. It was disgusting. I am, though, acknowledging its effect on his targets. I am trying to imagine that I had to be informed that someone molested me. I.E. You were asleep, but your sibling touched your breasts and genitals, lightly enough that you didn't wake. Again, I am not excusing this, but I am allowing that these ladies weren't particularly traumatized by what their brother Josh did do to them, because they never knew about it, until they were informed.

The eldest of the Duggar girls were 12 and 9/10 years of age at the time of the assault. They didn't remember the attacks, which were light enough to not wake them. I mean think about this. If I imagine myself in their shoes, I then know nothing until my parents inform me what happened to me, and then my brother confesses and apologizes to me. It's all icky, and I can't imagine how I won't be creeped out after the fact, but when reading a lot of online commentary, it reads to me like we are expecting Jill and Jessa (and probably the babysitter, but she wasn't interviewed) to have horrific, flash-back worthy trauma, but it's not there, because that's not their story.

I try to put myself in the shoes of those (3 of 5) girls who were asleep when they were molested. What do I feel? Well, I feel it's fricking creepy. I feel a distinct lack of trust, when I have to be in this person's orbit. What I don't feel is trauma -- not because sibling sexual abuse isn't traumatic, but because if no one had told me, I wouldn't know I had survived it. Do you know what I mean?

To sum: I think what Josh allegedly did was gross, but I understand why Jessa and Jill are not traumatized, because they have no knowledge of memory of his assaults. To expect these girls to feel like they have been raped (or groped) when they weren't conscious during the events is… well, it makes no sense. This is not to excuse Josh. This is just to recognize that he assaulted them in subtle ways, that, in their sleep, they didn't even realize, so I have no right to expect them to react as if they'd been attacked when conscious.

 

 

 

2.  The parents encouraged the girls to tell the DHS workers the entire story.  What story?  From their perspective they had no story to tell.  They had no first-hand knowledge of what Josh had done.  This doesn't add up.

I mostly disagree. The girls were told by their parents that they were assaulted in their sleep.  The story they had to tell is, "My brother told my parents he assaulted us. They told us. We were creeped out. He was sent away. We were sad, but it was cree

 

I'll buy the part about them being told later, although it's hard to believe they wouldn't have woken up. But let's say they didn't... the part I don't buy at all is how they can possibly know it was "quick," "over clothes," and "very subtle" if they weren't even awake.

 

I think that these ladies believe it was quick and over the clothes is what proves the assault was mild enough that they didn't wake up. Do you understand what I mean? Josh did them a grievous wrong, but it was done in such a way they didn't suffer the trauma from the act, but from the revelation.
 

I'm really surprised Kelly didn't address this point.  I also do not understand why Michelle and Jim Bob acted as though it were a good thing that they required Josh to pay for his own health care.  It mostly left me wondering if they force their other kids to pay for health care.  Like, will Josie need to reimburse them for her lengthy hospitalization or for that ambulance ride she took when she had a seizure?  

 

I just don't get the school of thought on having a child pay for their own treatment.  anyone have an explanation for this?

 

I've seen this discussed otherwise, but I think said discussion misunderstands the original topic. By the time of the end of the 2006 investigation, as far as I can tell, Josh was a legal adult. I do think the Duggar parents thought something akin to: "This child erred in this fashion and brought this problem upon us. He should face the legal/financial consequences."

 

Exactly. If the choices for your son to satisfy his puberty curiosity are A) read porn or B) molest his sisters, and you think B is a better choice, well...I don't know what to say.

 

Okay, I've lost a lot of my sources, but I have this semi-memory that ALICE (one of the original web-sources) or someone said that Josh first got in trouble with web porn. I could be wrong. I cannot cite. That said, if I am not out of my mind, imagine a 14 year old boy who has been exposed to porn, but is growing up in this repressive atmosphere. I think even a non-pathological person could falter.
 

What kind of state-accredited, licensed counseling program would require a juvenile to pay for his or her own counseling? I am guessing none and I tend to doubt it would be legal. I hope not anyway.

 

So basically Josh did construction work for some friend of JimBob and this guy kept the money Josh would have earned and paid himself to counsel him? Am I missing something?

 

If (and this is how I understand it to be), Josh and the kids didn't get counseling UNTIL after a FINS (Family In Need Of Services) was filed (please see the police report -- this was a thing), Josh was an adult. If so, I can totally understand JB and M making him pay for his own therapy, under the idea that they didn't want to support his previously sinful life. 

 

I think the Duggars thought viewers would applaud their making Josh pay for his own therapy, but instead everyone is giving a collective WTF?! He did horrible things, but he was a minor and his parents were legally responsible for him. I wonder if Social Services was privy to this little gem when they were fawning over what aaah-maaaayyy-zinngg parents JimBob and Michelle were.

 

I don't think he was a minor at this point.


Also? Really, I appreciate the conversation on this thread. I appreciate the informed conversation. That said, I think there has been a lot of nonsense that has been carried on, even when posters should have known better. 

Seriously? Spend a day in the police report. You'll be less critical of the daughters, but more disgusted by every single thing. :(

[zoomama]

I mean, apparently as soon as a boy reaches puberty, he has to be handled as a potential sex offender. What the HELL?

 

read this and it suddenly became crystal clear to me as to why the paired up siblings are separated at a certain age, for example Joy and whoever the boy talking-head partner was. hmm....