S10.E18: Jill's Special Delivery

[JoanArc]

 

Note that Vanessa Giron is no longer on the list of licensed midwives.

This is what bothers me about the Duggar's belief that you don't need college - you can just apprentice a job. No, not in every field.

[riverblue22]

We really had very little info from TLC on Jill's labor and delivery.  I think there is a cover-up because it went so badly.  I have many doubts about the timeline and the decision making that occurred. The baby was probably transverse when labor started and no one even knew it.  She was never going to have a normal delivery and it took her 70 hours to figure that out.  Doesn't say much for the experience of Jill and her midwife support.  And that pitocin thing doesn't fit either. Bottom line, she is very lucky to have a healthy baby

[HundFan]

Some random musings re “Jill’s Special Delivery,” which should have been billed “But Not Really Since Most Of This Show Is About Michelle.”

 

*Michelle’s “how to handle an infant” class for the littles would be funny if it weren’t so sad. Children that age are NOT supposed to be nannies. Was that Michelle’s version of a “Take your daughter to work day?" What’s the next age-inappropriate tutorial -- “Small Children Learn To Operate Dangerous Farm Machinery?” Hannie’s swatting her diapered doll toward Michelle at the end said it all. Let’s give up on freeing Jinger (sadly, she’s too far gone) and hope for Hannie instead; she may just have enough spunk to survive their efforts to beat it out of her and one day might actually escape the Duggar circus.

 

*Yes! to other posters who noted Jana’s fed-up side eye at Michelle in the car. She may not yet be ready to bolt, but that chick has had it. Michelle better hope she keeps the gun cabinet locked, ‘cause sooner or later, that one’s gonna blow.

 

*Michelle’s crazy eyes while talking to Josie re the crib reminded me of the “Clockwork Orange” scene where Malcolm McDowell has his eye lids pulled disgustingly asunder by metal clips that make his eyeballs look ready to pop out of his head. Since Michelle’s so big on “countenance,” does she practice that look in the mirror? That’s a scary thought. 

 

*That slow-motion montage of Michelle and Boob kissing: ewww and double ewww. No one wants to see that shit … or imagine what Boob is thinking about flattening Michelle in the grass and rabbit humping her right then and there.

 

*Derick’s facial expression when his head lolls back in the massage chair during the pedicure: did anyone else think this might be how he looks in a moment of uncontrollable passion? Damn … now I need brain bleach.

 

*Granted, Derick’s scary all-in on God and maybe even Boob-think, but you gotta admit that reaction to his Dad’s note was beyond sweet. And he looks really cool – dare I say, almost sort of macho – in his Pistol Pete gear. Would he could muster some of that swagger against the Duggar machine.

 

*Derick’s “man shower … I think Jill would come” comment: priceless. He’s clueless and my mind’s in the gutter, but that bit made my day.

 

*Re Miss Cathy: Michelle, prepare to be shamed. This woman is the loving, selfless sort of mother you could never dream of being. Except for that “Satan causes cancer” bit. Guess you can’t have everything.

 

*Jill’s mild concern re the baby’s meconium = complete logic fail. She should have bolted for the hospital right that second. My first baby presented with meconium when my water broke and I high-tailed it to the hospital just as my doctor insisted. She studied childbirth where? Oh ya, the school of have a perfect birth even if it jeopardizes your baby.

 

*Re Jill’s not so perfect birth: I’m no fundie, but, like Jill, I was crunchy enough to take Bradley classes for my first pregnancy. None of which helped a bit with my hard & fast labor (7 ½ hours start to finish with no amniotic fluid to soften the contractions) or the off-the-grid pain that ultimately led me to a largely useless shot of mild painkiller (far from the epidural I would have chosen absent the Bradley guidelines). Bradley’s description of contractions is “some discomfort.” Please. And they claim some women even experience orgasms while birthing. That’s about as likely as a meteor strike on your hoo-ha at the precise moment you deliver. Bradley also failed to mention that pushing might not feel like such a relief if you have a 9 ½ pound baby – and, as a result, that I might ultimately need a vacuum extractor. What Bradley did do was fill me with shame and guilt (my Bradley instructor said she was sorry I failed in needing both pain meds and medical intervention) – and since I imagine Jill feels the same, she has my genuine sympathy here. My guess is Bradley’s tweaked tenets had much to do with Jill’s cascade of poor decisions during the birth (not taking the meconium seriously, waiting longer than she should have to go to the hospital). I can only hope she realizes, with future babies, there are many ways to have a “natural” childbirth, including a hospital, pain meds, doctors and even sometimes a Caesarean. I certainly knew these things by the time my second daughter was born.

Edited May 7, 2015 by HundFan

[Neet]

I can't wait until there are no more birth episodes for the foreseeable future because I feel like the only one on this site who doesn't know anything about pregnancy, dilation, etc.. so it's pretty mind-numbing to me. That, plus the infinite episodes focused on a Duggar woman giving birth are getting pretty damn repetitive and the parents are already planning the next one upon leaving the hospital.

[graefin]

Michelle's attitude about your spouse being more important than your children really speaks volumes and explains a lot about them.

 

"Marriage came before motherhood in my life, so my marriage needs to come first. Even though you gotta be a mom, and you might have to get up in the middle of the night when a kid throws up all over the place, and you might not get much sleep, you still need to put your marriage relationship first, because your kids, they need you, but your spouse needs you first and foremost, and the stability of that relationship really gives your kids stability."

 

Of course your relationship with your spouse is important, but this is a pretty backwards way to see things in my view. Your kids, particularly when they are young, are totally dependent on you, not only for their physical needs but emotional ones. Your spouse is fully independent and doesn't need to be raised to be a functional adult or taken care of in the same way.

[Wellfleet]

Michelle's attitude about your spouse being more important than your children really speaks volumes and explains a lot about them.

 

"Marriage came before motherhood in my life, so my marriage needs to come first. Even though you gotta be a mom, and you might have to get up in the middle of the night when a kid throws up all over the place, and you might not get much sleep, you still need to put your marriage relationship first, because your kids, they need you, but your spouse needs you first and foremost, and the stability of that relationship really gives your kids stability."

 

Of course your relationship with your spouse is important, but this is a pretty backwards way to see things in my view. Your kids, particularly when they are young, are totally dependent on you, not only for their physical needs but emotional ones. Your spouse is fully independent and doesn't need to be raised to be a functional adult or taken care of in the same way.

 

Using this kind of logic, shouldn't Me-chelle be much devoted to her now-deceased parents and her remaining sibs? After all, they were part of her life long before Boob. Once again, the Duggars - and probably Gothard himself - want a nice neat simple little rule to remember. Nope, it doesn't work that way, kids. Life is complicated - and messy. And it's hard work. At different times it will be your marriage/relationship, or your kids, or your parents, or your sibs, or your friends, maybe even your work at times - that will need to be top priority. You may even have to double-up at times - so start eating your Wheaties.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Wellfleet

[Absolom]

Ratings:  2.968 M viewers and a 1.0 rating.

[Wellfleet]

I can't wait until there are no more birth episodes for the foreseeable future because I feel like the only one on this site who doesn't know anything about pregnancy, dilation, etc.. so it's pretty mind-numbing to me. That, plus the infinite episodes focused on a Duggar woman giving birth are getting pretty damn repetitive and the parents are already planning the next one upon leaving the hospital.

 

You're not alone, Neet. There are a few of us here without kids or childbirth experience. But I have to say I enjoy hearing the stories - horror and otherwise - from all the moms here. I have learned a ton, and like Lincoln, think it's critical to hear viewpoints from all sides. I've often thought X about something, just to have my opinion altered 180 degrees by the comment of another poster, who knows a lot more than I do about a given issue.

[BitterApple]

For those of us who don't have kids I think this episode was the perfect example of how NOT to handle your labor and delivery. So in a way Jill provided us with a teaching moment after all.

[Darknight]

Ratings: 2.968 M viewers and a 1.0 rating.

What does the 1.0 rating mean if they have 2.9 million viewers?

[Spencer Hastings]

Wasn't there an episode where they shopped for furniture for Jordyn?  I seem to remember they bought a whole new bedroom set for her.  Or was that Jenny?

[sandyskyblue]

I appreciate all the comments, opinions and especially all the snark in these posts!!  But most important, I want to thank doodlebug for sharing her knowledge of all things OB/GYN and being the 'behind the scenes' expert to help amateurs, like me, understand Jill's delivery!!  Thanks doodlebug!

[Sew Sumi]

Wasn't there an episode where they shopped for furniture for Jordyn?  I seem to remember they bought a whole new bedroom set for her.  Or was that Jenny?

That was for Jordyn. It provided a plotline for the early episodes of 17K&C. Seconded that she should have gone along with Josie on the crib-finding expedition. 

[TomServo]

I can't help but wonder (hope?) that the reason the footage of Jill's labor has that random-pieced-together quality with all the filler footage is because they actually did want a bit of privacy and therefore the film crew wasn't allowed to film the entire time.

[Bayarea4]

What does the 1.0 rating mean if they have 2.9 million viewers?

It means that 1.0% of the nation's television households were watching the show.

[Zahdii]

Moved to Small Talk.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Zahdii

[Bella]

Hey, folks-

 

This is an episode thread, and the discussion is way far off of the episode. I'm hiding a bunch of posts, and the forum mods will discuss which, if any, we will unhide and which, if any, we will delete.

 

S10.E18: Jill's Special Delivery is the topic here. 

[Morgalisa]

I'm still having flashbacks of the scene where Jim Bob came down to tell the kids that Jill was having a c-section.  He had on his "pajamas", I guess.  I believe it was a green striped shirt and plaid pants.  How in the world do they sleep in street clothes.  Where did this idea come from?  Is that Gothard?  SMH.

[Happyfatchick]

What time did Jill actually deliver, does anyone remember?

[Sew Sumi]

11:49 pm. Or thereabouts. (edited because I can't tell a colon from a semicolon) 

Edited May 8, 2015 by Sew Sumi

[HumblePi]

I question why the doctor ordered Pitocin to be given to Jill since they were aware that it wasn't going to be a vaginal birth? As far as my knowledge goes, I didn't think that Pitocin would be given to any woman who has already been in labor for over 48 hours and whose water has broken, and the baby is obviously large and in breech position. I think that all they accomplished with Pitocin was increasing the strength of her contractions and the added hours of her intense labor. I think there's more risks to using Pitocin in that situation than there would be any benefits.

 

Can anyone clear this up for me?

[doodlebug]

At the time the Pitocin was ordered, I don't think they knew the baby was breech.  However, there are some physicians who do choose to try to deliver breech babies vaginally, so it wouldn't necessarily be wrong to give Pitocin. But,if they knew she was breech, Jill would have been a very poor candidate for an attempt at delivering vaginally.  It was her first baby, she was two weeks overdue, her baby was exceptionally large and, despite her water being broken for a couple of days, she had yet to enter into active labor (about 90% of women will be in labor within 24 hours of the water breaking).  Even the very few practitioners out there who would attempt to deliver a vaginal breech would shy away from someone with that many risk factors.  She was a cesarean waiting to happen from the start.  Her foolish behavior put her and her child at far more risk than was necessary while providing no benefit whatsoever.

[NikSac]

I thought they ordered the Pitocin because her contractions kept starting and stopping and they were trying to get them more steady - at least that was the impression I got. I absolutely agree she had way too many risk factors for that to be a good idea, and she should have gone for the c-section way sooner, but I think that's why the Pitocin.

[HumblePi]

I thought they ordered the Pitocin because her contractions kept starting and stopping and they were trying to get them more steady - at least that was the impression I got. I absolutely agree she had way too many risk factors for that to be a good idea, and she should have gone for the c-section way sooner, but I think that's why the Pitocin.

What does it matter how strong or weak her contractions were if she was scheduled to have a C-section? After so many hours of labor, Jill really didn't need to have another 2 days of it in the hospital if they had to do a C-secion anyway. Labor contractions push against the baby and blood vessels are constricted during the contraction and they compress the blood vessels that travel through the uterine wall and carry oxygen to the placenta. This means that during the contraction, no oxygen can be transferred to the baby.

I wonder if there's any ob/gyn that watched the episode. I'd really like to get their professional opinion, because this is a real issue if the doctor chose to give Jill intravenous Pitocin to increase contractions.

[RedheadZombie]

I thought Derick was cute during the pedicure - just when I thought it was done, they'd bring something else.

 

I was shocked by the bumper pads, as someone mentioned upthread.  They may not have scientific proof of what causes SIDS, but when statistics show that absence of bumper pads and pillows, sleeping on the stomach, and a smoking mother, along with the presence of a ceiling fan and sleeping in the same room as parents, has significantly dropped SIDS rates, that's good enough for most people.

[BitterApple]

I think the timeline and the editing is so screwy it's hard to know what really went down.

[SomePity1066]

I'm torn about Jill's delivery. On one hand, she may have just wanted privacy during one of the most intimate, personal moments in a woman's life, something this family has never had while giving birth (especially that horrifying birth-on-a-toilet of Anna's !) so that's why the footage is so thin and most of the episode was all about Mechelle and the glassy-eyed journey through her life of "Me ! Me ! Me !"

 

On the other hand, I harbor a secret, wicked hope that they had to scrap most of the film because she was MF-ing everyone in sight, threatening Derick with castration with a dull knife, and screaming at the staff "Give me DRUGS !!!"

 

Now THAT would have been some eye-opening, not keeping-it-sweet gold ! But whatever the reason for why we saw, or didn't see, I'm happy that Israel is happy and healthy, despite being the size of a Thanksgiving turkey. I truly hope he's going to be able to bypass the SOTDRT and can indeed go to college. 

 

I can hope. I can dream.

[NikSac]

What does it matter how strong or weak her contractions were if she was scheduled to have a C-section?

 

I wonder if there's any ob/gyn that watched the episode. I'd really like to get their professional opinion, because this is a real issue if the doctor chose to give Jill intravenous Pitocin to increase contractions.

 

I got the impression she wasn't scheduled to have a C-section at that point. That was kind of her last choice, so maybe they were trying the Pitocin first?  I too would be very curious to get an ob/gyn take on it.

I was thinking more about Derick's saying Iz might go to college and all that. Yes we can hope and dream, but doesn't that mean they are going to need to pretty seriously limit the size of their family?  Or is it only going to be Iz who gets that chance, and when they run out of money to send future kids to college, those kids are out of luck? I know families that struggle to get 2 or 3 kids through college. They sure as heck aren't going to be able to send 15 or 20.

[Sew Sumi]

What does it matter how strong or weak her contractions were if she was scheduled to have a C-section? After so many hours of labor, Jill really didn't need to have another 2 days of it in the hospital if they had to do a C-secion anyway. Labor contractions push against the baby and blood vessels are constricted during the contraction and they compress the blood vessels that travel through the uterine wall and carry oxygen to the placenta. This means that during the contraction, no oxygen can be transferred to the baby.

I wonder if there's any ob/gyn that watched the episode. I'd really like to get their professional opinion, because this is a real issue if the doctor chose to give Jill intravenous Pitocin to increase contractions.

doodlebug commented above your post. She's a long-practicing OB-GYN.

[doodlebug]

Watched the whole labor part again. First thing I noticed was that there was no  midwife present at the house until about a day and a half after her water broke.  That means to me that she was never having regular contractions or showing any signs of active labor.  For that matter, makes me wonder who was monitoring Jill's blood pressure, temperature and the baby's heartbeat.  Jill?  As they say, 'the doctor who does his own medical care has a fool for a patient'.  Double that for student midwife Jill.  She also wouldn't have had any vaginal exams to that point (no way Jill could do an accurate exam on herself).  Also, just watching her behavior during that time, her demeanor, her nicely styled hair, her makeup in place; she was not laboring.  And, no, her girlfriend the midwifery student from Texas was also not qualified to do anything either.  The first time we see anyone who looks like an actual midwife is about 36 hours in, shortly before she went to the hospital.  We didn't see the midwife trying to convince her it was time to go there, but I'd like to think that this is why they finally decided to go to the hospital.

 

Even once she is in the hospital and on Pitocin, she is clearly not having much in the way of labor; she looks mildly uncomfortable a couple times but then is standing next to Derrick, looking clear eyed, alert and in no pain whatsoever just a few hours before the delivery (7PM per Derrick).  Derrick also informs us that they are going to turn off the Pitocin for a while so her contractions will space out and she can rest, another indication that she was not in active labor.  If Jill was having any kind of decent contractions, they would not have stopped when the Pitocin was discontinued.  As a matter of fact, we often turn the Pitocin off when labor is well established because the body takes over. '

 

The first time we see a doctor, he is diagnosing the baby as breech and telling Jill she needs a section,  It is Jill who claims the baby was 'breech transverse', but, from watching the doc do the ultrasound, he was clearly plain old breech, his head was right up under her ribs.  The doctor never suggests anything other than surgery; it is Jill who talks about seeing if the baby will turn again on its own or maybe doing an 'inversion' (sic).  However, if she really knew a dam* thing about childbirth in the first place, she'd have known that a 10 lb kid spontaneously doing a somersault in utero 3 days after her water broke was all but impossible.  She'd also have known that the correct term was version, not inversion.

 

In other words, the whole cluster** was due to Jill's hubris and complete lack of knowledge about childbirth. Had she had a lick of common sense, she would've sought medical assistance when she didn't go into labor within a few hours of her water breaking, the breech would've been diagnosed sooner and the kid would've been born days earlier.

Edited May 9, 2015 by doodlebug

[Grits]

Derrick said that Jill took castor oil to begin her contractions. I had to rewind it to hear it clearly. Thank God Jill and baby are healthy today. I don't think Jill was in active labor for 72 hours. I also didn't it routine practice to allow a woman to labor so long after her water breaks. Jill thought she knew more than she really knew about labor and delivery.

[graefin]

Watched the whole labor part again. First thing I noticed was that there was no  midwife present at the house until about a day and a half after her water broke.

This would be consistent with what Jill/Derick said somewhere (in one of the People articles?) about not telling anyone that her water had broken because they didn't want people to panic. They apparently went out to eat, Jill went to the chiropractor ("because I wanted to be aligned for birth"), and she got a pedicure--all after her water broke and before telling anyone.

 

 

The first time we see a doctor, he is diagnosing the baby as breech and telling Jill she needs a section,  It is Jill who claims the baby was 'breech transverse', but, from watching the doc do the ultrasound, he was clearly plain old breech, his head was right up under her ribs.  The doctor never suggests anything other than surgery;

I noticed that the doctor said to her, "the baby's head is now up here," as if it wasn't before. I was wondering why he would have done that if, as you have explained previously, it is 99% likely he was breech all along. He also seemed to suggest a C-section using very cautious language ("it's probably best," which is not really consistent with Jim Bob's description of it as "an emergency C-section). I thought perhaps the OB's approach was his way of gently trying to break through her recalcitrance, because most doctors I know would have presented their case more aggressively and firmly.

[Fuzzysox]

None of the epi made much sense since it was so choppy. Jill has zero common sense and all her "training" didn't prepare her for the  birth of her own child. These people don't want to rely on doctors and nurses but in the end without them Jill wouldn't have her precious little errr I mean big miracle. 

Edited May 9, 2015 by Fuzzysox

[Jenniferbug]

Shouldn't the midwife have caught that the baby was breech WEEKS before Jill's due date? Did the doctor not check position when she was admitted to the hospital before administering pitocin? Did they just take Jill's word for it?

I ask because I'm 31 and a half weeks pregnant, and at my OB appointment yesterday they checked position for the first time, and my doctor said the baby was already head down. I asked if she is likely to stay that way till birth, and he said yes- that there are no guarantees she wouldn't still flip with 9 weeks to go, but that most babies will stay head down once in that position.

So I'm confused how not one, but two medical professionals would have missed that Iz was breech until so late in her pregnancy/labor.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Jenniferbug

[Cherrio]

Thank you Doodlebug for all the information. Its great to get expert commentary.   

[truelovekiss]

Is Jill's doctor single? Here's hoping that Jana checked that situation out.

The poor doctor has already had one interaction with the Duggars in shitshow mode (as if they have any other mode) so he knows what he's up against, which (unfortunately for Jana) probably isn't good news.

[Fuzzysox]

Shouldn't the midwife have caught that the baby was breech WEEKS before Jill's due date? Did the doctor not check position when she was admitted to the hospital before administering pitocin? Did they just take Jill's word for it?

I ask because I'm 31 and a half weeks pregnant, and at my OB appointment yesterday they checked position for the first time, and my doctor said the baby was already head down. I asked if she is likely to stay that way till birth, and he said yes- that there are no guarantees she wouldn't still flip with 9 weeks to go, but that most babies will stay head down once in that position.

So I'm confused how not one, but two medical professionals would have missed that Iz was breech until so late in her pregnancy/labor.

Your not wrong. You are getting real medical attention. My doctor was a high risk OB and he was always prepared. I was checked often and he had the operating room set up in case of an emergency even when my twins were in the right position.

 

I still don't understand how Jill went 11 days overdue without anyone having any concern!?!?!?!

Edited May 9, 2015 by Fuzzysox

[JoanArc]

I wish Jill had done a workbook on Dunning-Kruger Effect. The fact that she'll likely be hovering over all other Duggar births makes me nervous.

[Chai]

I will never get over their willingness to put themselves back in the 1800's with all the danger and deaths that the pioneer women had to face. This is 2015! If the best thing you can do for your child is have a C-section, then done. My decision would've been made right then and there. It's not any kind of failure or something to be ashamed of.  

 

I agree this was probably a nightmare for her. I wouldn't have wanted to go through it. I wonder if any kind doctor or nurse told her: you didn't have to go through all that! I have had some of the world's greatest nurses when I delivered my children, Thank God.They were a fountain of knowledge and were happy to teach me anything I didn't know that I wanted to learn. I truly hope someone said something about the future so that Jill never has to suffer that way or put her child through anything unnecessary. 

 

As a mother, I would want the best doctors and nurses for my daughter and grandchild. I wouldn't consider a midwife in this day and age. No disrespect to midwives is meant. Isn't it ironic that the mother that delivered 19 children couldn't give her own daughter better advice?

[OpieTaylor]

It seemed like the parts where MEchelle was teaching the little girls about babies, and where Boob was teaching the little kids how to wrap, were (lame) attempts to show them parenting. In the past, the older girls would surely be leading those activities. In fact, none of the older kids were to be seen during those events, or when Josie was looking for the crib. How strange that it was only JB, M and Josie around for that part - where was everyone else? 

[doodlebug]

It is certainly possible to miss a breech presentation both on abdominal and vaginal exam. Even an experienced midwife or doctor will miss it on occasions; I certainly have.  However, Jill had several big red flags that should've called for further assessment.  First off, she was HUGE, while it is possible to accurately predict a baby's size by physical exam alone, it is always a good idea to get an ultrasound to try to confirm it.  Most practitioners would've gotten an ultrasound a few weeks before her due date to try to better assess the baby's size and the breech would've been picked up then.

 

Next, when someone goes overdue, there is a risk of placental malfunction which can even lead to stillbirth.  One sign is decreased amniotic fluid around the baby which is why most practitioners would've gotten an ultrasound once Jill went a week or so overdue.  Once again, the breech would've been found,

 

Finally, when someone is weeks overdue, her water is broken for days and despite Pitocin, she is not in active labor; its time to assess and see what might be keeping labor from progressing.  I presume that's why the doc finally assessed her and did the ultrasound.  I don't know Arkansas law, but, where I practice, a midwife with hospital privileges can order Pitocin in certain cases without a doctor examining the woman.  Ruptured membranes without labor is not uncommon and I would certainly trust a midwife to manage that without my direct intervention.

[BradandJanet]

I will never get over their willingness to put themselves back in the 1800's with all the danger and deaths that the pioneer women had to face. This is 2015! If the best thing you can do for your child is have a C-section, then done. My decision would've been made right then and there. It's not any kind of failure or something to be ashamed of.  

 

I agree this was probably a nightmare for her. I wouldn't have wanted to go through it. I wonder if any kind doctor or nurse told her: you didn't have to go through all that! I have had some of the world's greatest nurses when I delivered my children, Thank God.They were a fountain of knowledge and were happy to teach me anything I didn't know that I wanted to learn. I truly hope someone said something about the future so that Jill never has to suffer that way or put her child through anything unnecessary.  Jill's lucky she had the options she did.

 

As a mother, I would want the best doctors and nurses for my daughter and grandchild. I wouldn't consider a midwife in this day and age. No disrespect to midwives is meant. Isn't it ironic that the mother that delivered 19 children couldn't give her own daughter better advice?

Jill and company acted like she was going to have experimental surgery for a malignant brain tumor. I'm sure Jill was frightened and, yes, all surgery carries risk, but be reasonable, Duggars. By the time I heard my doctors say c-section, I didn't care what they did as long as baby and I came out of it alive. Stubborn Jill was lucky to have to have the options she did.

Since I'm being mean anyway, it's possible Michelle was giving some thought to how her own screen time would be cut when Jill got whisked off to the hospital.

Sorry Chai. I moved your post to reply.

[Chai]

That's ok, Bradandjanet. I didn't know how, or I would've moved it myself. Thanks! ;-)

[Fuzzysox]

Once again a huge thank you Doodlebug for explaining everything to us. Everything you posted about are things we as mothers thought about while delivering and I'm still SMH as to why Jill was so stubborn to put her child in danger after her water broke. She is really darn lucky nothing bad happened.

 

I sure hope this opens her eyes up to the importance of having a qualified medical person assisting her in years to come. 

[awaken]

I watched this ep looking to find fault, but honestly, could't find any!  The entire labor and delivery were handled seamlessly, and I was thrilled to see such thoughtful care and decision-making all around.  More on that later!

 

I did find the cringe worthy pedicure scene, the baby care tips with the younger girls, and Josie passing on the crib scenes all very boring filler that I forwarded through.  

 

The Pistol Pete thing was semi-interesting, if only to see another side of Derrick, at his college, talking about his dad also being Pete, and seeing him sort of have another personality with the costume on!  It went on too long, though.  Where are people getting that the Dills would bar their children from college?  It seems like Derrick was endorsing it for his children if they chose it, and was speaking very positively about his experience.  

 

The most touching moment for me, was when Jill held the baby for the first time.  You could just tell she could not wait to get her hands on that baby!  I was so happy for them that he was finally here and hopefully now she is just enjoying him.  

 

Re: the birth, the way everything was handled (that we saw on tv, anyway) was textbook, for a not-so-textbook labor.  I am sorry it didn't go so smoothly for Jill, but it was clear she had tons of loving support and each decision along the way was well thought out.  I am hoping seeing this was helpful and instructive for those who look askance at homebirth, midwifery, or normal birth.  Choosing or preferring those options does not indicate recklessness or shunning of all medical intervention to the point of harming mother or child.  It just means you don't needlessly do interventions on all women and babies regardless if the need them or not, but save them for when they can be helpful, and healthy for mom and baby.  Jill did not hesitate to get medical care when needed. Homebirth moms and midwives have hospital plans and emergency plans, as Jill talked about, and the parents as well as the midwives together have on hand all of the necessary supplies and equipment, both for a normal birth and for emergencies- all of this is checked and confirmed ahead of time, as was shown.

 

Babies turn in labor all the time.  There is nothing suspicious in it happening to Jill.  They turn from anterior to posterior and vice versa, from breech to head down, from head down to breech, and to transverse.  Happens frequently and this is no indication of lack of skill on her providers' parts.   Happens in the hospital all the time and no one blames doctors for being incompetent or says hospital birth is not safe because of it.  Midwives, CPM's in particular, typically have very acute hands-on skills for assessing baby's positioning.  They usually palpate at every appointment and throughout labor to know what baby is doing and detect a change as soon as possible.  Most doctors, in contrast, depend on ultrasound (the safety of which hasn't yet been proven) to learn baby's position.

 

Long labors are also quite normal, and safe (although exhausting of course, esp. if you're not eating!).  With appropriate monitoring, of course, and if mother and baby are doing well.  There is nothing suspicious or reckless in laboring for several days.  We just don't see it as often nowadays because most doctors and hospitals don't "allow" it, typically not for evidenced-based reasons, but due to factors like, the hospital room is needed for someone else, doctor has somewhere else to be, fear of litigation, c-sections are more expedient than waiting on an unpredictable labor.  There is a hospital-based practice in my area that routinely "lets" women labor for days at a time, *with appropriate monitoring* and they have amazing statistics on outcomes, booked solid for months ahead, and are a national model for how care is done.  

 

Another point I hoped came through in the show, was how much in person, individualized emotional and clinical support you get during an out of hospital birth.  You have your care team right there with you, paying attention to *only* you, listening to the baby with a doppler or fetoscope, with hands on you, talking you through every contraction, helping you eat and drink, keeping you comfortable in your own surroundings, and helping you make decisions in the moment.  And usually, if a hospital transfer is needed, which as Jill said, is done before things become emergent, they come along with you to give report to the staff.  It is not the situation most women have experienced, where you are hooked up to a continuous monitor (the safety and efficacy of which, incidentally, has not yet been proven), in bed, not allowed to eat or drink, with a nurse that has 10 other patients in various stages of labor, monitoring them all via screens at the nursing station, with a doctor who is mostly not even in the hospital during your labor, and pops in or calls on the phone every few hours and then swoops in as the baby's crowning to catch.  

 

anyway,  I hope this is helpful and gives some perspective on the episode.  Jill has a lot of physical and emotional healing to do, and I truly hope she is being given the time and space she needs.  I worry, seeing her out and about so much, but I really hope that was her choice and she actually wants to be doing it, and doesn't feel obligated.  

 

 

 

 

[OhioMom]

I'm still having flashbacks of the scene where Jim Bob came down to tell the kids that Jill was having a c-section.  He had on his "pajamas", I guess.  I believe it was a green striped shirt and plaid pants.  How in the world do they sleep in street clothes.  Where did this idea come from?  Is that Gothard?  SMH.

Maybe wearing "night clothes" leads to sexual thoughts?  And wearing regular, daytime clothes keeps your mind out of the gutter?  Maybe they don't want the film crew to see them (or their kids) in night attire? Just guesses. I really don't know.

[awaken]

I will never get over their willingness to put themselves back in the 1800's with all the danger and deaths that the pioneer women had to face. This is 2015! If the best thing you can do for your child is have a C-section, then done. My decision would've been made right then and there. It's not any kind of failure or something to be ashamed of.  

 

I agree this was probably a nightmare for her. I wouldn't have wanted to go through it. I wonder if any kind doctor or nurse told her: you didn't have to go through all that! I have had some of the world's greatest nurses when I delivered my children, Thank God.They were a fountain of knowledge and were happy to teach me anything I didn't know that I wanted to learn. I truly hope someone said something about the future so that Jill never has to suffer that way or put her child through anything unnecessary. 

 

As a mother, I would want the best doctors and nurses for my daughter and grandchild. I wouldn't consider a midwife in this day and age. No disrespect to midwives is meant. Isn't it ironic that the mother that delivered 19 children couldn't give her own daughter better advice?

 

That is funny.  The US is routinely ranked as one of the worst places in the world to give birth.  There have been some recent high-profile studies out, with coverage by some of the major news outlets.  Google it.  We have one of the highest maternal and infant mortality rates in the WORLD.  Several third-world countries beat the US when it comes to birth outcomes.  Something like over 1/3 of women in the US have PTSD following their birth experience, and many many more are left with postpartum depression, anxiety, and struggle with breastfeeding due to their experience.  So, I wouldnt say that puts our system of medicalized care and excessive surgery in a great light!  So any mother/grandmother cares about the health and safety of their daughter and grandchildren, I wouldn't be too quick to encourage them into that system :)  Jill is wise for not wanting that for herself and her baby if it could be avoided.

 

It is certainly possible to miss a breech presentation both on abdominal and vaginal exam. Even an experienced midwife or doctor will miss it on occasions; I certainly have.  However, Jill had several big red flags that should've called for further assessment.  First off, she was HUGE, while it is possible to accurately predict a baby's size by physical exam alone, it is always a good idea to get an ultrasound to try to confirm it.  Most practitioners would've gotten an ultrasound a few weeks before her due date to try to better assess the baby's size and the breech would've been picked up then.

 

Next, when someone goes overdue, there is a risk of placental malfunction which can even lead to stillbirth.  One sign is decreased amniotic fluid around the baby which is why most practitioners would've gotten an ultrasound once Jill went a week or so overdue.  Once again, the breech would've been found,

 

Finally, when someone is weeks overdue, her water is broken for days and despite Pitocin, she is not in active labor; its time to assess and see what might be keeping labor from progressing.  I presume that's why the doc finally assessed her and did the ultrasound.  I don't know Arkansas law, but, where I practice, a midwife with hospital privileges can order Pitocin in certain cases without a doctor examining the woman.  Ruptured membranes without labor is not uncommon and I would certainly trust a midwife to manage that without my direct intervention.

 

From what we were shown, that is exactly what they did....her water had been broken, labor not ramping up, they likely had been assessing her temps, the HR, etc all along, when it was clear things weren't progressing and there had been mec, they went to the hosp. for further assessment and to take the next steps to keep things going.

 

Also interesting.  As ultrasounds can be off by a pound or two in either direction, that wouldn't be tremendously accurate on its own without a good physical exam, either.  Even if he had been breech at that point, the baby can still turn.  Did she say she had no later term ultrasound or were you assuming, since the baby turned?  

 

And if the estimate was that it was a big baby, so what?  Women have big babies all the time, much bigger than 9# 10oz.  And, they often have them naturally, home or hospital, without tearing, and during short labors, and labors with normal courses.  The weight alone doesn't mean much.  The biggest impediment is that thought being put into their minds that their body can't do it because the baby is "too big".  I'm sure we've all heard of many cases where mothers were told they had a "big baby" based on US and needed a c section, and came out a nice petite 7#  :)

Edited May 9, 2015 by awaken

[doodlebug]

Awaken, thanks for your perspective as an advocate of homebirth with lay midwives (or no trained attendants at all).  We're obviously on different pages as far as this episode goes, but that's life; to each his own.  I am sure we're both glad that both Jill and her baby were healthy in the end.  This thread isn't meant to be a referendum on homebirth vs more mainstream medical care.  The points you make are quite interesting and I believe I've addressed them elsewhere in the thread.  I personally encourage folks who believe as you do to stay home with their lay caregivers; makes for a happier experience for everyone including us medical types.

[BitterApple]

As much as the Duggars annoy me, I am glad and pleasantly surprised that the entire family didn't camp out at the hospital. I think it would have only added unnecessary pressure on Jill to hurry up and have the baby because everyone was waiting. I know there's been criticism that Derick has become too Duggarized but I notice Jill calls Cathy "Mom" and I don't get any weird vibe that she doesn't care to have the Dillards around.

[Chai]

That is funny.  The US is routinely ranked as one of the worst places in the world to give birth.  There have been some recent high-profile studies out, with coverage by some of the major news outlets.  Google it.  We have one of the highest maternal and infant mortality rates in the WORLD.  Several third-world countries beat the US when it comes to birth outcomes.  Something like over 1/3 of women in the US have PTSD following their birth experience, and many many more are left with postpartum depression, anxiety, and struggle with breastfeeding due to their experience.  So, I wouldnt say that puts our system of medicalized care and excessive surgery in a great light!  So any mother/grandmother cares about the health and safety of their daughter and grandchildren, I wouldn't be too quick to encourage them into that system :)  Jill is wise for not wanting that for herself and her baby if it could be avoided.

 

 

From what we were shown, that is exactly what they did....her water had been broken, labor not ramping up, they likely had been assessing her temps, the HR, etc all along, when it was clear things weren't progressing and there had been mec, they went to the hosp. for further assessment and to take the next steps to keep things going.

 

Also interesting.  As ultrasounds can be off by a pound or two in either direction, that wouldn't be tremendously accurate on its own without a good physical exam, either.  Even if he had been breech at that point, the baby can still turn.  Did she say she had no later term ultrasound or were you assuming, since the baby turned?  

 

And if the estimate was that it was a big baby, so what?  Women have big babies all the time, much bigger than 9# 10oz.  And, they often have them naturally, home or hospital, without tearing, and during short labors, and labors with normal courses.  The weight alone doesn't mean much.  The biggest impediment is that thought being put into their minds that their body can't do it because the baby is "too big".  I'm sure we've all heard of many cases where mothers were told they had a "big baby" based on US and needed a c section, and came out a nice petite 7#  :)

I live in Boston Ma with the best healthcare anywhere in the world, with doctors from Harvard, no less.  I also have given birth  multiple times. I know what I'm talking about with deciding on a college educated healthcare system  for labor and delivery than Jill Duggars  non educated mid wife approach.   For my family and me there is no other choice.