S04.E18: Heart Of Gold

[Shanna Marie]

I'm so confused. I thought there was a huge plot point in that once you left Storybrooke you'd have no memory of it or the people there. Wasn't that the deal?

That was the first curse. The second curse doesn't seem to have the same issue. They were initially kept from leaving by the flying monkeys, and then the ice wall went up soon after Zelena was (temporarily) defeated. They concluded once the ice wall came down that Ingrid had added something to the town barrier that made it so that once someone left town, they couldn't find the town again, and that's why Robin and Regina's parting was so tragic. Except one episode later they found a way for someone to find the town again, so whatever.

 

I probably missed a lot last night, because I was stuck wondering why Robin would got to NYC. Why wouldn't they send him to find a cabin in the woods somewhere?

And that's the other question. There were probably a lot of spots where they could have camped in the woods in Maine, living pretty much the way they were living in Storybrooke. Why send people who weren't even city people in their world to New York? Why send people with no real way of earning a living in our world in a city to one of the most expensive cities in the country? How did Regina even know about Neal's apartment, and how did she get the keys? She wasn't on that trip. Emma was apparently busy during all the Robin angst, since during that time she was helping Elsa find a way home and then rushing to be frozen by Rumple, and Henry was with her during the Elsa stuff and stayed behind at the mansion, so neither of them was in a position to have suggested Neal's apartment as a solution and found the keys among whatever of Neal's things made it back in curse 2 and maybe were at Granny's.

 

I'm also not sure why Walsh/the Wizard would have had any of the elixir with him. Why would Zelena have sent it with him or allowed him to bring it, and why would he have felt he needed it?

 

I'm starting to feel like the way they plot this show is by having a big party for the writers, at which they get very drunk and just start shouting out random ideas. The one sober person in the room writes them down and throws them in a jar. Then when it's time to plot an arc or write an episode, they take turns pulling slips from the jar and challenge each other to write an arc or an episode that contains all the items on the slips they've pulled. That's how we end up with the broken hearts elixir, Zelena, and Robin Hood goes to Oz in one episode and how we get a story arc that brings together Cruella, Ursula and Maleficent.

[marcee]

I'm starting to feel like the way they plot this show is by having a big party for the writers, at which they get very drunk and just start shouting out random ideas.

So much this.

[MDKNIGHT]

I phoned a SwanQueen shipper after the episode was over.  She hadn't seen it yet but I told her how Regina is asked to choose between helping Emma be "corrupted" and the life of Robin Hood.  She was pretty surprised especially since I pointed out that it ISN'T like Regina is choosing between one or the other DYING.  WORST case scenario as presented by Gold , Emma becomes bad.  How does that even compare to death?  The fact that Regina took even a half second to decide given the uneven-ess of the choice is like this ep was written by someone whose pet has been kidnapped by a SwanQueener and that part was the ransom demand.  The only time I've seen anything like it was the episode Prom-asaurus on Glee which I will go to my grave believing was entirely ghost written by a Faberry fanfic writer who had blackmail photos of Ryan Murphy.

 

I'm going to discuss what this ep shows about Regina vs Rumple in Regina's thread.

[jhlipton]

Oh, you weren't dying to know what happened to Robin Hood and his boring family after they left Storybrooke? Too bad, you're going to find out! But a shocking twist makes it all worthwhile.

 

Or not, in my case.

 

You know Robin is going to catch Zelena/Marian on one of those "Remember what you said to me back in EF....?"..

 

Robin is hardly the sharpest knife in the drawer.  I think it's going to have to be "a trout in milk" obvious before he gets it.

 

I probably missed a lot last night, because I was stuck wondering why Robin would got to NYC. Why wouldn't they send him to find a cabin in the woods somewhere? 

 

I wouldn't send him to A Cabin in the Woods (LOL) but pretty much anywhere was better than NYC.  

 

===================================

 

They showed Marian after she crossed the town line while Robin went back to suck face.  If that was Zelena, why didn't she smirk?  (Answer: TS,TW)

 

ETA: From the recap:

[Robin]He has now said "I have a code!" so many times, it's starting to sound like Ross Gellar's "We were on a break!"

 

Too true!

Edited April 13, 2015 by jhlipton

[ParadoxLost]

So I can only comment on the first twenty minutes because I discovered last night that my viewing is tied to a combination of characters I find engaging on this show and the Walking Dead.  Last night had neither, so for the first time I turned it off and went to bed.  Granted, I think the words 'this sucks donkey balls' was uttered, then a commercial, and then more Robin/Will/Zelena/Gold, and then I shut it off.

 

Of what I saw, the only thing that surprised me is that A&E can't even try to whitewash a character properly.  I really thought they would take this opportunity to go back to the time travelling to show that Zelena killed Marian before Emma and Hook met her for attempted assassination of Evil Queen and protecting Show was just a way to garner sympathy from Emma because Zelena knew who Emma was.

 

Instead...

Regina attempts to execute Marian

Hook and Emma bop Marian on the head and leave her unguarded for a moment

Zelena kills Marian

 

Somehow I bet the show thinks Emma is the most responsible  because of her potential for evil.

[KingOfHearts]

I'll be shaking my head if Robin reacts angrily at Zelena for killing Marian. He won't even flinch about Regina, but if its her sister... it's totally a sin now! Granted Regina is supposedly redeeming herself, but to have zero reaction at learning about your wife's murder is just bias writing.

Edited April 13, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Terrafamilia]

Did did enjoy Rumple and Robin's talk that led Robin to realize that, yes, he and Marian could be a real love thing again. Too bad it wasn't real Marian. Also, the six leaf clover of Oz is a real bit of Oz flora.

[KaveDweller]

Does the Zalena is Marian thing explain why Robin's kiss didn't wake her from being frozen in 4A?  

[Arnella]

 

Regina is asked to choose between helping Emma be "corrupted" and the life of Robin Hood.  She was pretty surprised especially since I pointed out that it ISN'T like Regina is choosing between one or the other DYING.  WORST case scenario as presented by Gold , Emma becomes bad.  How does that even compare to death?  The fact that Regina took even a half second to decide given the uneven-ess of the choice is like this ep was written by someone whose pet has been kidnapped by a SwanQueener and that part was the ransom demand.

Also since the writers have pushed Emma and Regina being besties, she could at least have the faith in her that her parents seem to have lost that Emma IS good and won't turn no matter what is done to her.

[ParadoxLost]

Does the Zalena is Marian thing explain why Robin's kiss didn't wake her from being frozen in 4A?  

 

Maybe but how did Zelena get frozen by ice cream?

[Dani-Ellie]

The same way that Marian did? Magic can work on other magic users. If Zelena wasn't expecting Ingrid to freeze-spell-whammy the ice cream, why would she have thought to magically protect herself?

 

I actually think it's kinda funny that Zelena came up with this whacky, convoluted plan only to almost get frozen by Ingrid like, 24 hours after her arrival back in the present. Heh.

[daxx]

The same way that Marian did? Magic can work on other magic users. If Zelena wasn't expecting Ingrid to freeze-spell-whammy the ice cream, why would she have thought to magically protect herself?

 

I actually think it's kinda funny that Zelena came up with this whacky, convoluted plan only to almost get frozen by Ingrid like, 24 hours after her arrival back in the present. Heh.

Zelena should have little magic of her own without her pendant. Hence the reason she uses the 6leaf clover as opposed to a glamour spell. The magic item does ensure the glamour works outside Storybrooke though. They have shown in canon that magic objects still work in the land w/o magic.

[buildmeupbuttercup]

I was spoiled so this "twist" wasn't shocking at all, despite Adam assuring people on Twitter that they didn't know the whole story and not to judge until we see it onscreen...oh look it played out exactly as people predicted. I was pleasantly surprised that they didn't retcon it so Marian wasn't imprisoned and set to be executed by Regina. You know because as much as I would've hated it, that would've at least matched up with their canon because Regina had to have her memory refreshed by Sidney because she didn't remember Marion. That was the one clue when looking back I could've bought Zelena as Marion the whole time. Because otherwise? Not buying it. Just some of the things that make zero sense:

• Marian didn't tell Emma who she was because she was afraid it would endanger her family, so how did Zelena's "life force" (which conveniently takes residence in her own green body before killing Marian) know Marian was Robin's wife and could therefore ruin Regina's happiness?
• Probably goes along with the first, but how did she know Roland's name or recognize him in 322?
• The whole red heart thing
• Everything about her saying "have my husband because he really loves you" shit instead of "Regina is the Evil Queen who tried to execute me"
• If this whole con was to ruin Regina's happiness she sure came close to getting herself killed for real a couple times

 

Also, two episodes ago Regina needs Emma to use her skills to track down Robin, yet we find out she not only gave him keys to the place he would be staying in NYC but he had a cell phone in Storybrooke since he was not only calling her but Granny's for takeout, David, Emma, and Mary Margaret. FFS what is there to "track" and "find"? She had every puzzle piece she needed to know exactly where he was. I know it's getting to be too much to expect that writers remember what they wrote in previous seasons but geez we are talking about two effing episodes ago.

[KAOS Agent]

In this week's rundown of theme words our heroes and villains took a break this week with the heroes scoring 1 point and the villains being shut out completely. Heroes now lead the villains 25-23 in 4B. Never fear though, happy endings had a solid 6 mentions bringing its half season total to 32.

 

And let's not forget the words of the day - Honor and Code. Each was used six times.

Edited April 14, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[KingOfHearts]

 

Marian didn't tell Emma who she was because she was afraid it would endanger her family, so how did Zelena's "life force" (which conveniently takes residence in her own green body before killing Marian) know Marian was Robin's wife and could therefore ruin Regina's happiness?

 

Probably goes along with the first, but how did she know Roland's name or recognize him in 322?

 

I don't believe she needed to know who Marian was until the present. Robin called her out first, not the other way around. She wanted revenge on Regina I'd be shocked if she didn't do any research on her love interest in Storybrooke. For that reason she knew who Robin and Roland were.

 

 

Everything about her saying "have my husband because he really loves you" shit instead of "Regina is the Evil Queen who tried to execute me"

At that point, Zelena was already planning on faking the freeze spell so Robin would be forced to leave. To give Outlaw Queen its blessing only for it to be split apart would be more painful. 

Edited April 14, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[dr pepper]

That was the Author's worst deus ex machina, ever :(

[Camera One]

So why hasn't Zelena called Regina by now?  A little "Ha ha, I have your man" would be all the more delicious, wouldn't it?  It's not like Regina could leave Storybrooke, or she'll never see Henry again.  Until we found out about the Snow Queen's scroll, that is, though Zelena doesn't know that.  

 

Or in 4A, why didn't Zelena try to seduce Robin and tell Regina to butt out of their lives?  Or make up lies that would turn Robin against Regina for good?  

 

As others have said, wouldn't she be smirking all over the place?  Clearly Zelena can't help herself.  

 

The search party for the Rogue Author was so dumb, complete with Henry holding a torch.  Way to advertise to Rumple that the Rogue Author is loose.  

[Shanna Marie]

As others have said, wouldn't she be smirking all over the place?  Clearly Zelena can't help herself.

That's why this twist is so unbelievable. As soon as they decided that Marian was Zelena, there were anvils falling all over the place with signs that something wasn't quite right. She couldn't quite hold back the smirk. But during all of 4A, she was entirely sincere. It's hard to tell what her game really would be. Zelena's beef with Regina was that Regina got the life Zelena felt she deserved. She was a queen who had all the riches, the nice clothes and jewels, and she was Rumple's chosen one who got to cast the curse. Zelena always came in second, and that's what she wanted to shift. There was never even the slightest indication that she ever would have been jealous of Regina having a boyfriend, especially not a boyfriend who lived in the woods and used pinecones for money. If Zelena wanted revenge, there are dozens of other ways she could have done so while in Marian's form that would have been more in character, that fit with the things we know she was jealous of. I really don't buy the bit about giving her blessing because that made Regina the first choice, and it let Regina feel like the hero in giving Robin up for the sake of her family. Zelena's issue was that Regina, to her, was always the first choice. Why would making Regina the first choice be revenge? Zelena would more likely have done everything in her power to force Robin NOT to choose Regina or to insinuate herself into Regina's life rather than having to leave town. What's the fun of revenge you don't get to see?

 

And yet again, they make happiness vs. unhappiness come down to being about whether or not you have a boyfriend. Living in poverty in a distant place with a man she holds in contempt doesn't seem like it would fit Zelena's idea of making Regina suffer, whether or not she took her boyfriend away from her. That really is the "drinking poison and hoping it kills the other person" definition of revenge.

 

And then there's this:

Marian didn't tell Emma who she was because she was afraid it would endanger her family, so how did Zelena's "life force" (which conveniently takes residence in her own green body before killing Marian) know Marian was Robin's wife and could therefore ruin Regina's happiness?

Yeah, you've got to wonder about that, since none of them knew who Marian was. I could have maybe bought her looking for a ride back and then being shocked at who her new identity turned out to be, but a plan? No.

 

I'm just pissed on Marian's behalf. She gets killed behind the scenes just to clear the way for Regina to get what she wants. She was treated like a plot inconvenience.

[Leia1979]

Ugh, what does it say that my favorite part of this episode was Zelena? I found her scene with Rumple entertaining. I agreed with her as not!Marian about letting Rumple die for the greater good.

 

I would have liked to get more clues as to where we were in Will Scarlet's timeline. I'm assuming it's fairly early on if he's just meeting Robin.

 

And an entire episode about one of my least favorite characters on the show. Oh goody. At least there's Cruella next week.

[AudienceofOne]

... are not a fan of Emma, Hook, Snow or Charming.

... enjoy watching Robin Hood.

You'll like this episode if you...

... think Zelena is entertaining and just the bomb.com.

... are on the edge of your seat for the Outlaw Queen angst.

... get thrown by A&E "twists"

 

I think you'll also enjoy it if you've written a retcon-spotting drinking game and have a shot every time they do something that contradicts established continuity.

 

Oh, Will's in Oz (sip) meaning he apparently already had a way to jump realms so didn't really need to go through all that Maleficent trouble (sip)

Zelena's in love with Robin and her evil plan now involves cooking pot roasts and cleaning toilets (sip)

Robin Hood and Marian were tavern owners (sip)

Regina actually knew exactly where Robin was all along (sip)

Marian was really Zelena all along! And yet somehow the Dairy Queen's magic worked on her! You know. Because! (sip)

Robin apparently knows what the shape shifitng pendant looks like but doesn't notice his wife is wearing it (sip)

 

And it goes on. Could have been fun if I'd thought about bringing booze along. Maybe next week.

 

At this stage, I'm honestly watching a train wreck in slow motion. Just how bad can this season get? Stay tuned.

Edited April 14, 2015 by AudienceofOne

[Camera One]

That's why this twist is so unbelievable. As soon as they decided that Marian was Zelena, there were anvils falling all over the place with signs that something wasn't quite right. She couldn't quite hold back the smirk. But during all of 4A, she was entirely sincere. It's hard to tell what her game really would be. Zelena's beef with Regina was that Regina got the life Zelena felt she deserved. She was a queen who had all the riches, the nice clothes and jewels, and she was Rumple's chosen one who got to cast the curse. Zelena always came in second, and that's what she wanted to shift. There was never even the slightest indication that she ever would have been jealous of Regina having a boyfriend, especially not a boyfriend who lived in the woods and used pinecones for money. If Zelena wanted revenge, there are dozens of other ways she could have done so while in Marian's form that would have been more in character, that fit with the things we know she was jealous of. I really don't buy the bit about giving her blessing because that made Regina the first choice, and it let Regina feel like the hero in giving Robin up for the sake of her family. Zelena's issue was that Regina, to her, was always the first choice. Why would making Regina the first choice be revenge? Zelena would more likely have done everything in her power to force Robin NOT to choose Regina or to insinuate herself into Regina's life rather than having to leave town. What's the fun of revenge you don't get to see?

 

Heck, why didn't Zelena pretend to be Robin and make the whole situation even more painful for Regina once she woke up?  She didn't feel like having another go at grabbing Rumple's dagger from Belle's high-security purse?  

 

And of course, THIS episode they drop all the anvils.  "Hey Marion, remember word for word what you said to me that day in the tavern?"  Once wasn't enough, they had to do that twice in the same episode.

 

The Zelena/Rumple bedside scenes did nothing for me.  Of course Rumple wouldn't die.  So who cares.

 

So when did Zarion plan to defend herself against the Snow Monster in the 4A premiere?  

Edited April 14, 2015 by Camera One

[scenicbyway]

Adam is now saying that Zelena glamour spelled her heart so that when Regina took frozen Marian's heart it would look pure.  Glamour inside and out.  But really, how did Zelena know who Marian even was back in the EF?  Where was she hiding?

[AudienceofOne]

Adam is now saying that Zelena glamour spelled her heart so that when Regina took frozen Marian's heart it would look pure.

 

 

I see, and she managed to do this after she was unexepctedly magically frozen? Or before, in anticipation of being unexpectedly frozen?

[KAOS Agent]

What was Zelena's plan of leaving with Robin? She enjoyed the finer things in life and wanted to live like a queen and yet, she choose to leave Storybrooke with Robin forever so they could squat in some tiny apartment in Manhattan? This was her big revenge? She's making Regina sad, but I can't imagine Marian's life in NYC was particularly appealing and if she ditches Robin, he'd no doubt be on the phone with Regina trying to figure out a way back to town. Why not just kill Robin? How does this woman who spends every second she can sneeringly monologuing manage to act perfect normal for months? 

[AudienceofOne]

Ok, let's just say I accepted the idea that when Zelena decided to kill Marian and take her place that the glamour she used was so all-encompassing that she gained Marian's memories and everything else; even including her pure heart. That could actually explain why she's suddenly all "but Robin won't love me!" and wants to live in a tiny New York apartment cooking and cleaning for the rest of her life.  

 

So I'll just accept that for the moment.

 

Doesn't that mean that Rumple's "my heart is failing from being so black" ailment makes no sense? Couldn't he have just glamoured it pure too at any time since magic returned to Storybrooke? Isn't the whole "your heart reveals the truth thing" like a really really important thing on this show?

 

God, just writing that has turned me round so many ways I'm not sure anymore. Lucky none of this necessary information was in the actual episode.

Edited April 14, 2015 by AudienceofOne

[FabulousTater]

All I know is that somewhere out there Rube Goldberg is looking at all this and thinking, "Oh, ya....it got better. *smirk*"

[kili]

Adam is now saying that Zelena glamour spelled her heart so that when Regina took frozen Marian's heart it would look pure. 

 

Smell that? It's Eau de Retcon. Smells like napalm in the morning.

 

see, and she managed to do this after she was unexepctedly magically frozen? Or before, in anticipation of being unexpectedly frozen?

 

That Zelena thinks of everything. While a normal villain gets tripped up by the details, not her.

 

Glamour inside and out.  But really, how did Zelena know who Marian even was back in the EF?  Where was she hiding?

 

She not only knew who Marian was, she knew who her son was and his name even though Real Marian had been silent on the subject from the time that  Zelena had arrived in country. Zelena always conveniently knows what she needs to know.

 

Adam should just give it a rest and admit the retcon. I bet the writers of Dallas didn't try to convince viewers that it was obvious Bobby had been in the shower all season long. He's insulting our intelligence at this point.

Edited April 14, 2015 by kili

[AudienceofOne]

She not only knew who Marian was, she knew who her son was and his name even though Real Marian had been silent on the subject from the time that  Marian had arrived in country.

 

 

 

Well, since she apparently knew that Emma was "determined" to bring Marian back to the future a full day before Emma was even thrown into a cell with her, knowing she was Robin's wife as well as everything about her life and personality seems like no mean feat. OUAT's super villian, for sure, pot roast notwithstanding.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Well, since she apparently knew that Emma was "determined" to bring Marian back to the future a full day before Emma was even thrown into a cell with her, knowing she was Robin's wife as well as everything about her life and personality seems like no mean feat. OUAT's super villian, for sure, pot roast notwithstanding.

You would think, writing such a detailed scene as Zelena's exposition, that you would make sure not to make a continuity mistake like that.

[Shanna Marie]

Well, since she apparently knew that Emma was "determined" to bring Marian back to the future a full day before Emma was even thrown into a cell with her

So I did hear that correctly. Wow, how dumb, since Emma didn't even think about bringing Marian back until Hook refused to let her go for fear of what it might do to the timeline, and bringing her back was Emma's crazy solution out of desperation. She even surprised Hook when she knocked Marian out because Marian was protesting and was going to insist on returning to her family.

 

This whole "let Regina think Robin was going to choose her, then make her have to nobly give him up and then leave town with him and live in a tiny apartment in New York, where she can't even see Regina suffer" scheme is the dumbest revenge plan since Regina's "make everyone live mildly unsatisfying lives without even realizing that's what happening" curse. At least Regina was watching her enemies live mildly unsatisfying lives.

[kili]

What was Zelena's plan of leaving with Robin?

 

Zelena apparently knows everything that ever has or ever will happen (knows who Marian is, knows who Marian's kid is, knows that Marian is married to the Regina's True Love, knows that Emma will take Marian into the future, knows that Regina is about to poof onto the scene so there is no reason for Zelena to save herself from a snow monster), so I guess that means that she knew that a few hours after she leaves Storybrooke with Robin, a blissfully ignorant Belle would buy a clue and bannish Rumple to the World Without Magic and that Rumple would wend his way to New York where she would have him the perfect position to start blackmailing him again because she plans for everything and made sure Walsh had the Elixir of the Wounded Heart in New York because she totally knew she would need it to Blackmail Rumple after her original plan of changing time failed and she got killed and her essence went to the EF and Emma would be there too and Emma would totally save some random woman that she saw for five seconds because she would end up in a cell next to her. 

 

She's got it all planned out to the nth detail. Adam should totally hire her to write for the show because she'll plan it out to the end and avoid all these messy continuity details because she won't need to retcon.

[Souris]

If they planned this whole Zelena-is-Marian twist ages ago, like Adam claims, then they narratively cheated by writing Marian as if she were really Marian in the interim. That’s just crappy, lazy writing. I compiled all the plot holes I've seen mentioned:

 

1) How did Zelena even know who Marian was in the Enchanted Forest, since Marian refused to say her name?

2) How did Zelena kill Marian in a poof of smoke and make her body disappear when she didn’t have her magic?

3) Why did Emma’s powers return after Zelena died, if Zelena never died?

4) Why would Zelena almost allow herself to be almost killed by the Snow Monster when she thought she was the only one still conscious?

5) Marian’s heart was bright red when Regina removed it when she was frozen. Ain’t no way Zelena has a pure heart.

6) Why would Zelena-as-Marian (Zelrian?) give Regina and Robin her blessing and tell Regina she wanted to be chosen?

 

Which ones have I missed?

Edited April 14, 2015 by Souris

[AudienceofOne]

If they planned this whole Zelena-is-Marian twist ages ago, like Adam claims, then they narratively cheated by writing Marian as if she were really Marian in the interim

 

 

No, see, that was all just part of Zelena's long-con pot roast plan.

[Mathius]

I still suspect they originally planned it as a possession type of thing, with Zelena only taking control of Marian at this point, and they changed it to the much less plausible "Marian's dead and Zelena replaced her" due to backlash to the OQ adultery from 4A.

How did Zelena kill Marian in a poof of smoke and make her body disappear when she didn’t have her magic?

That is the only explainable one: she did. As stated before, the green smoke from her amulet that opened the portal was her magic, and her life-force merged with it. Thus, when her body reforms for whatever bullshit reason, she has her magic and it's no longer contained in the amulet. She's back to how she was before she was ordained into the Oz witch coven. Edited April 14, 2015 by Mathius

[jhlipton]

Ok, let's just say I accepted the idea that when Zelena decided to kill Marian and take her place that the glamour she used was so all-encompassing that she gained Marian's memories and everything else; even including her pure heart. 

 

Not all her memories, or she'd know all the things Robin asked her about.  "Do you remember.."  "Of, course, I said..."

So that's out, too.

 

 At least Regina was watching her enemies live mildly unsatisfying lives.

 

And she got to watch Mary Margaret desire a married man, a man she couldn't have.  That was extremely unsatisfying for MM.  

[Zuleikha]

She basically tricked Neal by not revealing that in order to resurrect the Dark One, it would be a life for a life. I don't remember all the particulars.

IMHO, it's classic crazy Rumple to blame Zelena for Neal's death when it was all Neal's impetuousness. He and Belle knew Zelena was the one guiding them to the vault, and they knew they didn't know all the information. Also, it is common sense that something as dark magic as resurrecting the Dark One is going to have a price so it'd be a good idea to have a clue what that price may be before doing the resurrection. Neal's responsible for his own brash choice.

 

Smell that? It's Eau de Retcon.

Maybe I'm naive, but I feel like it was less retcon and more bad writing. By which I mean, I think the writers had planned the Zelena/Marian swap at the end of 3B. So when they were writing the Marian scenes in 4A, I do believe they knew Marian was Zelena and should have written in some hints. Marian did get iced pretty quickly, but still... Zelena has no freaking clue what Marian's personality is like! She would have no way to convincingly mimic her.

It's a shame because I think Robin feeling like something was wrong with Marian could help justify why he was so certain Regina was his true love now (although he still should have been concerned about Marian's life!).

[FurryFury]

The only time I've seen anything like it was the episode Prom-asaurus on Glee which I will go to my grave believing was entirely ghost written by a Faberry fanfic writer who had blackmail photos of Ryan Murphy.

 

You know, I'm just watching Glee right now (mostly in the background while I work, no other way to watch season 4 and 5), and Rachel/Quinn REALLY reminded me of Regina/Emma. Both are great examples of absolutely unearned friendship which is horrible to both lead characters and makes no sense. At least they wrote Quinn out after s3.

 

I wouldn't send him to A Cabin in the Woods

 

I would!

 

Zelena's in love with Robin

 

WHAAAT? Seriously?!

[Lii]

Will Scarlett, you are a beautiful, beautiful man. I wish I knew what your plot was on this show, as it would greatly enhance my Will-viewing pleasure.

[YaddaYadda]

What was Zelena's plan of leaving with Robin? She enjoyed the finer things in life and wanted to live like a queen and yet, she choose to leave Storybrooke with Robin forever so they could squat in some tiny apartment in Manhattan? This was her big revenge? She's making Regina sad, but I can't imagine Marian's life in NYC was particularly appealing and if she ditches Robin, he'd no doubt be on the phone with Regina trying to figure out a way back to town. Why not just kill Robin? How does this woman who spends every second she can sneeringly monologuing manage to act perfect normal for months? 

SoHo has great shopping?  And she's baking meat pie for Roland!

 

I find it just interesting/intriguing that Zelena would actually tie herself down with a child.  Forget about Robin.  He's a man, he's attractive, albeit boring and a tool (but that's just me) she could still do a lot worst than him.  But she's tied herself down with a small boy!  It would be a neat twist imo, if I don't know, Zelena grew a heart sometime during the nine weeks and came to care about Roland and even love him.  She's been taking care of him and everything that it implies.

 

In any case, it takes a special kind of spite to do what Zelena has been doing.  She is dedicated, that's for sure.

Edited April 14, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[DeLurker]

Maybe I'm naive, but I feel like it was less retcon and more bad writing. By which I mean, I think the writers had planned the Zelena/Marian swap at the end of 3B. So when they were writing the Marian scenes in 4A, I do believe they knew Marian was Zelena and should have written in some hints. Marian did get iced pretty quickly, but still... Zelena has no freaking clue what Marian's personality is like! She would have no way to convincingly mimic her.

 

It's a shame because I think Robin feeling like something was wrong with Marian could help justify why he was so certain Regina was his true love now (although he still should have been concerned about Marian's life!).

Bold mine.

Point 1 - Retconning and bad writing are not mutually exclusive.

Point 2 - Details details

 

As a viewer, I enjoy Regina although the global concern for her is ridiculous (Emma and everyone else Oh No!  Regina! all over the place).  TPTB seem just as in love with Zelena as they are with Regina.  Wonder who wins that pissing contest?

[Curio]

Well, I finally got to watch the entire episode. I just...I give up. This fucking show. I feel like I have to force myself to talk about this episode because it was just so blasé. None of my favorite characters were in it, they brought back my least favorite villain, and yet again, the writers throw a big shocking TWIST at us instead of slowly giving us clues throughout 4A that might have hinted at Marian being Zelena.

 

Here's where Adam & Eddy completely fail at being show runners: they're so paranoid about keeping huge secrets and plot twists from the audience that they don't even share their secrets with the actors, but that negatively influences the performances because the actors can't properly play out how a character should be behaving. There are numerous interviews out there where Adam, Eddy, and the actors themselves confirm that the writers don't tell the actors anything until they receive that week's script. Colin didn't even know about the Ursula secret until that specific flashback episode. So I don't doubt that this was the plan all along for Zelena to be disguised as Marian, but by not telling Christie this vital piece of information during 4A, it comes off like a huge retcon and a middle finger to the audience.

 

There's not a single piece of evidence in Christie's performance during 4A that hinted at her being Zelena. No shifty eye movements, no dialogue exchanges between her and Robin where she might have goofed up a detail from their past, no sneering looks at Regina when Regina isn't looking. Of course, Adam & Eddy will be like, "Oh, but that's just because Zelena is an amazing actress! You weren't supposed to recognize it was her during 4A because she's just that good!" BULL. SHIT. Why was she slipping up in this episode then? Oh, right. Because now it's okay to reveal the secret because this is the episode where you've finally decided that it's okay for the audience to know about the plot twist.

 

You know what is actually really, truly satisfying as an television audience member? If I'm able to piece together small hints and pieces of clues throughout the season that could lead me to figuring out a possible twist later on. Yes, you have to show some of your cards before you reveal the royal flush, but a good writer should be able to reveal hints without giving away the entire story. But by purposely withholding information from the audience time and time again, you're insulting our intelligence and testing our already short patience with this show.

[DeLurker]

Why is Robin dressed in the uniform of my high school's marching band (hat included)?

 

[RadioGirl27]

I still suspect they originally planned it as a possession type of thing, with Zelena only taking control of Marian at this point, and they changed it to the much less plausible "Marian's dead and Zelena replaced her" due to backlash to the OQ adultery from 4A.

I don't doubt that they wanted to bring Zelena back at some point. The way the "killed" her, without a body, was their way to leave the door open to that possible return. But Zelena being Marian was a total retcon. A&E wanted to do a classical triangle with Regina, Robin and Marian, similar to Emma, Hook, Neal (the love of the past that suddenly reappears), and they were actually surprised with the way most of the fans reacted to it. And, now, they are using this "Marian was Zelena all the time" as a way to stop the adultery comments. And it's obvious that it's a retcon because absolutely nothing in 4A indicates that Marian is actually Zelena. In fact, almost everything that happened there contradicts it. So, no matter what Adam says, this is just an incredibly badly written retcon.

Edited April 14, 2015 by RadioGirl27

[BoPeeps]

Just one woman's opinion but A&E lost respect for their viewers a long time ago. They are practiced, disingenuous players. It has gone beyond just assuming that their audience is somewhat stupid and will openly accept whatever baloney they serve up as a storyline because of the affection the viewers have for the basic magic of the show's original concept and the fan's love of specific characters. "Using and abusing" the viewing audience is a given in the media and especially the TV audience. A certain amount of that attitude can be overlooked because we are basically the pawns in the entertainment world. We have a passion to be entertained. Ultimately we can be powerful but only in our massive absence, not our frustrated and contInued presence. No it has apparently gone beyond that stage.

They don't respect their own story.

Which is all extremely sad.

[KingOfHearts]

 

But Zelena being Marian was a total retcon.

If they would have done it in 4A, I wouldn't have seen it as a retcon. My only real big issue with the twist was the fact Zelena had to hold her breath all this time to keep her cool. Her personality doesn't fit that at all. Even when she was disguised as Ariel, she laid on the drama and overdid it bit. However, that was only for a day.

 

With Marian, there was nothing strange to speak of for weeks. Many of the 4B plots, such as this one, should have happened earlier in the season. Oddly enough, most of my pre-4A speculation is occurring now.

Edited April 14, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

This whole "let Regina think Robin was going to choose her, then make her have to nobly give him up and then leave town with him and live in a tiny apartment in New York, where she can't even see Regina suffer" scheme is the dumbest revenge plan since Regina's "make everyone live mildly unsatisfying lives without even realizing that's what happening" curse. At least Regina was watching her enemies live mildly unsatisfying lives.

That's just it. In this scenario, Regina is unfulfilled, but doesn't suffer overly--and more importantly, Zelena doesn't get to enjoy Regina's suffering. If Zelena took Marian's place just to mess with Regina, shouldn't there be more messing with Regina? Seduce Robin, so that he's more likely to stay with you--and since you have magic again, make sure you get pregnant. Go to places where Regina often is, and break into sobs of terror when you see her. Make sure to have lots of public outings with your 'husband.' Find ways to remind people of all the things regina's done to them. Again, since you've magic again, stage little accidents for yourself that look dangerous and that you can frame Regina for. And watch, laughing silently to yourself.

  

You know what is actually really, truly satisfying as an television audience member? If I'm able to piece together small hints and pieces of clues throughout the season that could lead me to figuring out a possible twist later on. Yes, you have to show some of your cards before you reveal the royal flush, but a good writer should be able to reveal hints without giving away the entire story. But by purposely withholding information from the audience time and time again, you're insulting our intelligence and testing our already short patience with this show.

Yes. Absolutely. As a result, there's no reason to pay attention, because they just throw things up there and go with whatever their current whim is. Stuff they have built up is dropped when the next shiny squirrel bounces by, so there's little to no payoff, and all of a sudden there's a new random shocking twist that isn't because it's often the most predictable soap operaish turn imaginable. It's horribly frustrating.

[Rumsy4]

They don't respect their own story.

 

Agree. That shows how desperate they are for fresh ideas. Sad... 

Edited April 14, 2015 by Rumsy4

[ImogenLeFay]

I think I don't even want to comment on the episode, except it does feel like a retcon, and if it was planned, then they're really, really bad at their job.

 

But apart from that, and I'm not sure if somebody asked about it, and I SO hope that I got this wrong....

But what was Zelena's comment about a pot roast in the oven? Please tell me that was meant literally, and not figuratively like "bun in the oven", because Zelena is annoying enough, but if there's another pregnancy, I'm out.

[Rumsy4]

But what was Zelena's comment about a pot roast in the oven? Please tell me that was meant literally, and not figuratively like "bun in the oven", because Zelena is annoying enough, but if there's another pregnancy, I'm out.

 

I think we're all afraid of that...

[OnceUponAJen]

I'm pretty sure she said meatloaf, and I took it literally.