S03.E17: Suicidal Tendencies

[catrox14]

BOO! I liked Deadshot :(. 

 

Every time Oliver and Ray were together I just wanted Oliver to punch him right in his smug face.  But I LOVED that Oliver just short circuited Ray's suit, and I still wanted him to punch him anyway.

[BkWurm1]

Ray didn't care about Felicity's opinion and said he can't trust her. Why was she fine with it and wanted to apologize to HIM????

 

I think it's ok to feel like some kind of "I'm sorry" is needed since she'd kept a huge part of her life from him.  It was IMO completely justified, but  justifiable would still sting, so I'm ok with her being ready to offer an apology.  As for his trusting her, she doesn't know how long he hid the truth about his suit so I'll give her a pass on that, but I also have to give Ray a pass on his knee jerk reaction.  It was  a lot to take in and I'd like to think even without reassurances from Oliver, he would have calmed down and started trusting her. 

 

He already had gone from not trusting her to just assuming she was blinded by being too close to the situation.  So he was already halfway there before Oliver knocked him on his ass.  I will though take points away from Ray for mansplaining Felicity (even if he only did it to another dude) and deciding that he knew better than her how she felt.  That irritated the heck out of me. 

 

So, I'm getting last week was an aberration. I think I'll watch with a delay so I can fast forward, but I'd like to see Michael Rowe/Deadshot since he's seemingly dead now.

 

I maintain that this week is the aberration needed to make the audience think that Ray is a contender.  I mean after last week he just looked like a chump taking up space.  He still looks like a chump to me but for other reasons. 

 

OMG the rest of the episode was so bad I forgot about that. And people say he's not a stalker? WTF. 

Why did this episode make him look like a stalker?  I don't understand. 

 

 

 

Right? She was all "Ray wants a partner!" but he hadn't told her the suit worked. What the hell? Someone already said it, but they have totally sacrificed Felicity for their stupid launch of the stupid Atom. 

I repeat my belief that she must not realize how long he kept the news from her but she also might be in that stage where she is so eager for it to work out that she's willing to overlook something that would be a deal breaker. 

 

That's the only acceptable way to explain her character at the moment without wanting to throw things. I can accept her being at a complete loss but it's hard when they're selling Raylicity as this perfect relationship and a viable choice. It does not come across that way on screen at all. It's all so conflicting.

 

Felicity as we have seen after the thing with Cooper, is very good at plowing forward and not letting herself look back.  Eventually she will have to, but for now she's not ready emotionally. 

 

^ Well Oliver did tell Felicity he chose not to be with her because he couldn't have his a private life and a life as a vigilante and that Ray was too new to realize that but it would be true for him too (sure, Jan), so I didn't get that he ever changed his mind. I thought maybe he was telling Ray that Felicity chose him so that Ray would think everything was above board on the feelings meter and he didn't have anything to worry about and therefore wouldn't pull away from Felicity? Or so Felicity would have Ray and therefore be happy a while longer? Maybe?

So the idea is that Oliver helped put Felicity back with Ray because it's what Felicity wants right now (and he'll do what he can to make her happy) but he thinks it's doomed to fail anyway? 

Edited March 26, 2015 by BkWurm1

[pivot]

Jesus, these writers are determined to destroy Felicity, arguably the show's most popular character, just to build up Laurel. At this point, they need to just kill off Felicity and let EBR leave this shitty show. Lordy, how does KC's acting get worse in every episode and how can none of the writers notice how bad it is?

Edited March 26, 2015 by pivot

[apinknightmare]

Jesus, these writers are determined to destroy Felicity, arguably the show's most popular character, just to build up Laurel. At this point, they need to just kill off Felicity and let EBR leave this shitty show.

 

They've only used her to build up Laurel a few times. She's doing questionable stuff because they need to have a love triangle to make Ray relevant. Or something.

[calliope1975]

Well, I finished it. I mostly just watched the Suicide Squad stuff. That held my interest. I really hope Lawton's not dead, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was because this show's MO is killing off interesting characters portrayed by compelling actors. 

 

The CGI with Ray was terrible. I understand this is the CW, but don't commit to fantastical powers when you don't have the money to make it look believable. If I wanted to watch Iron Man, I would. And I would enjoy it, because it's a great movie. Atom is no Iron Man.

 

I didn't mind most of Felicity and Oliver's conversations, but the kiss just seemed mean. I have no idea why she is logically still with Ray, but I FF'd that so if I didn't see it, it didn't happen. It's the only way I can preserve my sanity and my love of the character. 

 

I'm going to have to go read some fanfic to remember why I ever liked this show.

Edited March 26, 2015 by calliope1975

[lexicon]

So Felicity, who refuses to be with Oliver because he who won't commit her 100%, instead chooses to go back to a man that a) stole her facial recognition program, b) didn't tell her that the suit she worked on was functional, c) didn't tell her he went out vigilante-ing in said suit, d) said he didn't trust her, e) attacked her friends after she told him not to.

 

But he does want to be happy! So that make it all OK!

 

Oh and Oliver, Jesus called. He wants you to get off the cross because he needs it back for Easter.

 

I was afraid that Deadshot would be a goner since they killed Bronze Tiger in the 2.5 comics presumably because of conflicts with the Suicide Squad movie. What a waste of Michael Rowe.

 

Why do I watch this show? Whyyy?

 

At this point I'm befuddled as to why I just can't quit this show either....sigh it's the hope that kills you 

[apinknightmare]

So the idea is that Oliver helped put Felicity back with Ray because it's what Felicity wants right now (and he'll do what he can to make her happy) but he thinks it's doomed to fail anyway?

Well, I'm not sure that's what was intended, but isn't that what he did? He talked about wanting her to be happy, he asked her if she was happy, she told him that she was. He said outright that Ray was too new at the vigilante thing to understand that he couldn't do that and have a personal life, so I don't think Oliver believes it's some long-term thing. I think he encouraged Ray to trust her because he really does want her to be happy for however long Ray's around since Oliver seems to (incorrectly) believe that he might not be able to be around for long.

Edited March 26, 2015 by apinknightmare

[pivot]

They've only used her to build up Laurel a few times. She's doing questionable stuff because they need to have a love triangle to make Ray relevant. Or something.

It's not about Felicity being used to build Laurel up. It's about writing Felicity as a pod person who doesn't give a shit about her friends, etc. because of her own selfish needs. That has never been Felicity until this season when the writers finally realized that Laurel/KC was incredibly unpopular and they decided the only way to make Black Canary more palatable to the audience was to make Felicity even more unlikeable than Laurel. If KC could act her way out of a paper bag, it might have actually worked. Now, Felicity sucks and Laurel is still an unbelievable, block of wood that kills any momentum the show may have every time she appears on-screen.

And seriously, do the writers get that they are writing a superhero show on the CW and not a depressing show on Showtime. I swear Homeland is less depressing than this show.

[Pete Martell]

When I saw Ray and Oliver in costume together I kept thinking it was a Medieval Times franchise gone horribly wrong.

 

Ray's costume is so silly. Everything about it reeks of fanboys who started up their own comic companies in the early '90s and were so impressed with themselves because they had edgy ideas like moar buckles and puffy sleeves and random eyepatches.

 

Maybe they will give Roy Lightning Lad's origin and powers and use this to start ripping off old Legion stories. 

[CabotCove]

It's about writing Felicity as a pod person who doesn't give a shit about her friends, etc because of her own selfish needs. .

 

Really and when has she done that? She went quickly to the cave to warn the team that Ray knew about Oliver being the arrow, and has spent the episode trying to get Ray her own boyfriend off Oliver's case.  She showed up at Diggle's wedding, and even offered to officiate.

 

 

That has never been Felicity until this season when the writers finally realized that Laurel/KC was incredibly unpopular and they decided the only way to make Black Canary more palatable to the audience was to make Felicity even more unlikeable than Laurel.

 

Triangles can be messy and unkind to the person in the middle.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Conell

[TV Anonymous]

One thing that makes me a bit sad is the portrayal of how Lawton's wife and people around him react with his apparent PTSD.

[90 Day Pinochet]

Or A Train-wreck On Meth (that's why his eyes are so red)

 

A.T.O.M.  AUDIENCE TEDIUM ORIGINATOR… meh.

[Oscirus]

First things first, does every conversation that Oliver and Felicity have somehow have to lead back to their relationship failings? I get that they're star-crossed lovers and all, but at some point they have to be able to talk about other things.  Even Ross and Rachael took a break from time to time.

 

I actually see Ray's side. He sees Arrow at a crime scene, immediately tells Felicity who treats him like an idiot and tries to play dumb. Then he goes to the district attorney who instead of trying to pretend to appease him, tries to  bully him into dropping the investigation, thereby outing herself in the process ( good job, Laura).  Combining all of those factors makes Oliver look pretty damn guilty.

 

Of course I have to deduct points for Ray having what amounts to an on/off switch on the outside of his suit. Who the hell thought that was a good idea?

 

Deadshot's backstory which I'm assuming is his introduction for the pilot didn't make him sympathetic at all.  In my opinion, once he was shown terrorizing his wife and kid, all sympathy goes out the window.

 

They really need to replace bronze tiger on the suicide squad since having no specialized fighters in these situations is pretty stupid.

 

[wonderwall]

For those of you who were curious about the whole 'thank you' and why Felicity was exactly thanking him, I asked someone about this and this is what they said: 

 

She says she knows him better than anyone. when he did what she thought he would, he proved her right.

[statsgirl]

Felicity doesnt want a perfect human being, she likely just wants someone who will listen and correct themselves when they have gone too far. And thats what she got at the end of this episode from Ray. Ray is not a perfect character, who is. 

The problem is not that Ray is not a perfect character, the problem is that now that they are together and we've had a good look at how their relationship functions, they have a big problems. Quarks laid it out very well:

 

a) Ray claiming that he's always been open and honest with Felicity, literally right after he's admitted that he didn't tell her that the flying suit they've been developing works.  And after not telling her that he was going to hold a press conference regarding the Arrow, let alone discussing it with her. This is after not telling her why he bought Queen Consolidated in the first place, after starting to develop the ATOM suit in secret, and so on. All of which would have been fine except that no one, and by no one I mean Felicity, called him on this.

 

One of the greatest things about Felicity is that she has been willing to call Oliver out on his crap. She did so in this episode. But here, she didn't call Ray out on any of his shit. She did defend Oliver, which was great, but overlooked a lot of other problems here.

 

b) On a minor note, Ray just figuring this out even though we've seen Felicity back in the Arrow Cave at night since she and Ray started dating, which leads me to question just how much time they have been spending together.

 

c) At the end of the episode, we have the following: 

 

Felicity has told Ray that she does have feelings for Oliver.

 

Ray has told Felicity that he doesn't trust her or her judgement.

 

Ray knows that Felicity has been engaged in illicit activities for at least one year.

 

Ray has electrocuted one of Felicity's friends.

 

Ray has fought and tried to injure another one of her friends.

 

Ray ended up trusting Oliver, not Felicity.

 

Felicity has once again all but admitted that she'd pick Oliver the second Oliver drops this "I can't be with anyone and protect the city crap."

It's like they really, really want us to believe that Ray/Felicity are a trainwreck just waiting to happen.  Your partner doesn't have to be perfect but if you don't have honesty in a relationship, you have nothing.

 

Looks like poor Thea did not get invited to Diggle's wedding...that seems sort of rude.

She was there, sitting beside Felicity during the ceremony.

 

 

I maintain that this week is the aberration needed to make the audience think that Ray is a contender.  I mean after last week he just looked like a chump taking up space.  He still looks like a chump to me but for other reasons.

I thought he looked like less of a contender this episode, what with the not telling Felicity the suit works after he's been flying it for a month, and the not trusting her and setting a trap for her friend and eletrocuting him and all.

 

Last episode I could see him as a viable rebound relationship for Felicity. This week, they're just a mess.

Well, I'm not sure that's what was intended, but isn't that what he did? He talked about wanting her to be happy, he asked her if she was happy, she told him that she was. He said outright that Ray was too new at the vigilante thing to understand that he couldn't do that and have a personal life, so I don't think Oliver believes it's some long-term thing. I think he encouraged Ray to trust her because he really does want her to be happy for however long Ray's around since Oliver seems to (incorrectly) believe that he might not be able to be around for long.

So basically the reason Oliver supports Felicity's relationship with Ray because he thinks it's going to fail in the end?

 

Nice going there, Oliver. You just lost all the points you accumulated by supporting her with Ray.  When Ray breaks up with her, I doubt she's going to be happy then.

Edited March 26, 2015 by statsgirl

[tennisgurl]

Ok so, some positives.

 

I thought all the suicide squad stuff was pretty good, even though Deadshots flashbacks didn't do much for me, and the governors plan was really freaking stupid. Did he have to start the evil monologue? Really? But I love Deadshot, and really hope he didn't actually die. And I wouldn't mind seeing Cupid again. I enjoy her special brand of crazy. 

 

Lyla and Dig are adorable. As are Dig and Oliver.I loved basically every scene with the two of them. 

 

Roy and Thea dancing at the wedding was cute. Poor Roy. 

 

Much mocking of the armor suit (seriously, why even make him Ray Palmer, and call him The Atom, if he cant do anything like The Atom...sorry staying positive). 

 

Actually liked Laurel here. 

 

Just...going to try to think positive...positive...

[apinknightmare]

So basically the reason Oliver supports Felicity's relationship with Ray because he thinks it's going to fail in the end?

 

Nice going there, Oliver. You just lost all the points you accumulated by supporting her with Ray.  

 

I didn't write that I thought Oliver was supporting Felicity's relationship with Ray because he thought it was going to fail. I wrote that I thought Oliver was supporting Felicity's relationship with Ray because she said she was happy and he wants her to be happy but that he doesn't think it's going to last. He told her as much? My point was that even though he thinks it's doomed to fail because Ray doesn't realize yet the toll being a vigilante is going to take on his private life, he wants Felicity to have him and be happy before he does. 

Edited March 26, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Jediknight]

Oliver is really not having any luck lately.  Felicity is with Ray and now Cupid has dumped him for Deadshot. :)

The salmon ladder is cheating on him with Ray, Laurel's hanging out with Nyssa, Roy thought it was awesome that Ray had built a supersuit, and Thea's hanging out with Malcolm.  Dude needs to go to Central City and hang out with Barry, Cisco, and Caitlin for a few days.

[looptab]

Well, that was bad. I've so many things I want to say I'm not even sure I'll remember them all. Let's see:

- Although I liked Diggle's warning to Ray, I felt that was the perfunctory Delicity scene fans have been begging for. Seriously, that's all you could come up with after 17 episodes?

 

- What was the point of the damn bouquet again? That scene with Laurel and Felicity was weird. And Pointless. And the one between Laurel and Oliver as well. I get that it all revolves around Oliver and Oliver's reactions to stuff, but they could have acknowledged Laurel's ongoing training in a scene between her and Thea. Poor Thea didn't even have a line.

 

- I see what you did there, show. During the ceremony, close-ups of Oliver, Felicity, and Laurel? Ok. And that gasp Laurel made when he touched her shoulder? Subtle, not.

 

- As everyone said, having Ray officiate was overkill.

So, I have a question: Do you guys think the writers expected viewers to see/understand Ray's side?
 

THis might be an unpopular opinion, but I did. I didn't get that mad that he didn't tell her about the suit, people keeping stuff from each other is such a habit for this show it didn't seem a big deal to me. But I understand why people would feel that way. I could see why he would get mad at her and not trust her. She didn't tell him about her work with the Arrow, he knows they are friends and she did admit to have feelings for him. As far as he knows, she could very well be lying and be complicit in the murdering. 

If they wanted to show a guy fighting for justice, I saw it. They had me until the "epic, epic" fight, which was so lame, and he went about being so cocky I wished his battery-operated suit lost the charge and he'd fall to the ground.

 

Felicity seems really lost to me right now. Like she knows what she wants but it keeps getting slapped away from her so she is just reaching and floundering.  I didn't see her so much as acting out of character, but as someone who is just really sad. I don't even know how to describe or if I could even put it into words. 

 

I'm so sick of her being a prop between these guys or for these guys.

Exactly.  I don't know what the hell is going on. I would agree with those believing they are building Laurel by destroying Felicity, because she didn't look good this episode. That line to Oliver, "You'd like that, you never wanted me to be with him", when he has shown nothing but support to you, was truly awful. Overall, that was the only Olicity scene I liked, though. The one at the wedding was all kinds of awkward; the one where Roy was present I laughed at SA's yelling at her.

 

And, for the love of all that's holy, don't have her cry every single time there is a crisis. She's been through some rough stuff, and now she can't handle herself a moment? I hate to say this, and I'm not one to be against women being shown to be emotional nor do I believe that if she cries=she's weak, but it's been going on all damn season long. 

 

While Diggle and Lyla were solid throughout,Lawton’s flashbacks were far too heavy handed. Horray, I’m home!  Aww, baby girl doesn’t know daddy.  Grr!  Eat your samich!  Ooh, I’m drinking beer!  PTSD!  PTSD! PTSD! And he’s now an assassin. And now he's dead.  Or is he?  He probably faked his death to get away from crazy Carrie.

 

Also pretty heavy handed was the idea that you can’t have a relationship and live the life of the vigilantes, I mean if Floyd Lawton believes it, it must be true!  

 

I have to say the parts I disliked the most were the one with the Suicide Squad. I love Diggle, Lyla, Deadshot, but this was not the episode for it. Everytime they cut to them, I was annoyed because I wanted to see more of the conflict going on in Starling. In the end, the episode didn't serve well neither of the 2 plots: the senator stuff was idiotic, Lawton's flashbacks were treated poorly and too simplicistically, and when they think they are about to die and Diggle has the epiphany: "Lawton was right!" I saw a sign with LIGHT BULB MOMENT. And yes, the story was mainly about Oliver's idea that people in this business can't ever be happy and loved.

 

^ Well Oliver did tell Felicity he chose not to be with her because he couldn't have his a private life and a life as a vigilante and that Ray was too new to realize that but it would be true for him too (sure, Jan), so I didn't get that he ever changed his mind. I thought maybe he was telling Ray that Felicity chose him so that Ray would think everything was above board on the feelings meter and he didn't have anything to worry about and therefore wouldn't pull away from Felicity? Or so Felicity would have Ray and therefore be happy a while longer? Maybe?

I really didn't get that part. "She chose you?" ....oh, well. Your reasoning here is the only way that makes a bit of sense, otherwise I got nothing.

 

However, I don't get how Oliver has taken away/disrespected her agency. I believe he has her best interest at heart, and, just like she does, he has to tell her when  she's making what he believes to be a wrong choice. I saw nothing wrong with that. What was idiotic was him telling her he wants her to have a normal life. Like, really? How can she? Her life it's not normal, regardless of whom she dates. SMH.

 

In the end, I ask myself why do I even bother watching, and I hope Roy is fine. Poor Roy.

 

R.I.P. Deadshot. I liked you.

 

Positives: Shirtless scene? Yay?!

Edited March 26, 2015 by looptab

[wonderwall]

That line to Oliver, "You'd like that, you never wanted me to be with him", when he has shown nothing but support to you, was truly awful. 

 

That line seemed very childish to me. But it's not like Felicity was off point (Oliver didn't refute her). At that point Oliver didn't want her to be with Ray because he's on the same path as Oliver so he wants to keep Ray far away from Felicity as possible because he doesn't really want her to get hurt. But then again, that's not his choice and he knows that. But that doesn't mean he likes it. It's the 'never' that's sort of hyperbolic imo. Because Felicity KNOWS Oliver was supportive of them at the wedding. 

[looptab]

That line seemed very childish to me. But it's not like Felicity was off point (Oliver didn't refute her). At that point Oliver didn't want her to be with Ray because he's on the same path as Oliver so he wants to keep Ray far away from Felicity as possible because he doesn't really want her to get hurt. But then again, that's not his choice and he knows that. But that doesn't mean he likes it. It's the 'never' that's sort of hyperbolic imo. Because Felicity KNOWS Oliver was supportive of them at the wedding. 

 Oliver did refute her, in the same sentence he said he did want her to be with Ray, until he found out about Ray's mission. However, Yes, it was very immature, and uncalled for. And made her look like a self-centered person, which we know she is not. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Of all the dumb things that happened in this episode, Ray officiating at Diggle's wedding was possibly the dumbest. I mean, seriously, Felicity didn't even have to offer to make someone else a minister if they could get her a laptop and wifi. Anyone in that room with a smartphone could have gotten themselves ordained in like five minutes. I know that I would rather delay my wedding for five minutes so that the officiant is a friend who knows me than have the wedding start on time and have the officiant be someone I don't know or like. This is your wedding, joining your lives together in front of all your loved ones, not having someone swipe your groceries over the scanner at the cash register. It should at least be someone you met more than ten minutes ago.

[Ariah]

So, this was the episode Felicity and Laurel switched characters? Ok then.

 

Let's see:

- supportive of Oliver,

- actually helpfull,

- using her intelligence,

- not taking 'no' for an answer,

----------------------------------------- Felicity? No! Laurel

 

- mean to Oliver,

- playing with his feelings,

- dating a guy who ends up in conflict with Oliver,

- passive throughout the episode, only reacting to things,

--------------------------------------- Laurel? No, Felicity.

 

Basically, the writers can write only one type of a female love interest - the mean player.

 

As for the text "You deserve better" -> why was this considered patronizing? When Felicity used the very same text in s2, it was not looked upon so negatively. Yes, the text implies the other person made some questionable choices (questionable in the eyes of the one doing the talking). But it also implies the person cares.

 

I do believe Oliver blurted this text out not because he wanted Felicity to dump Palmer and come to him. I think he meant Felicity deserved someone better than Himself - he thought Palmer is that guy, but it turned out he is not, because he goes off half-cocked and will get himself hurt sooner or later, which will - subsequently - hurt Felicity as well. In Oliver's mind, Felicity deserves someone normal, a regular guy who has little to do with vigilantees.

 

 

 

 

a side note: how adorable were Thea and Roy at Dyla wedding? Blink-and-you-missed-it scene of them dancing made my day.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

When everyone at the wedding started get the exact same text message at the same time with the notifications going off I thought I was watching Pretty Little Liars.

You know you love me.

 

XOXO

Gossip Girl

[tv echo]

I enjoyed watching Diggle get more screentime and his own little adventure, but the evil Senator plot was lame.  Its wrap-up was even lamer.  So the Senator paid off all those witnesses to keep quiet about his duplicity?  Hey, he tried to kill them.  You'd think at least one of them would have a conscience and tell the truth to the media.  And if he could just pay them off, then why kill them in the first place.  Who's to say he won't have all those witnesses secretly killed off later.  Didn't at least one of them record the whole thing on his/her phone?  It was just a plot device to have Waller abet the cover-up and get Lyla to quit ARGUS.

 

Aside from the Suicide Squad plot, the rest of this episode was 'meh' at best.  At worst, it left me with this takeaway thought:  BR is officially now the worst actor on Arrow.  Ray Palmer goes through a lot of different and changing emotions over the course of this episode - shock, hurt and disappointment, anger and determination, condescension, concern, overconfidence then humility.  But I saw barely any of that - just this shiny teflon surface off which emotions bounced.  In fact, I felt more emotion from MR's Deadshot than I did from Ray.

 

My fave part of the Arrow v. Atom plot is that Ray mistakenly believes that he has Oliver and Felicity all figured out, when he hasn't a clue as to what they've been through together and the depth of their trust in each other.  So Ray tells Oliver that Felicity's judgment about the Arrow is clouded by "her emotional attachment" to Oliver.  But Oliver knows the truth, and later confidently tells Ray "I have nothing to prove to Felicity.  You do.  Trust her judgment."  And Felicity tells Ray that she "knows Oliver better than anyone" and that Oliver didn't kill all those guys.  Ray's telling Oliver incorrect stuff about Felicity.  Ray's telling Felicity incorrect stuff about Oliver.  Oliver and Felicity know the truth about each other.

 

When the Atom was smugly flying circles around the Arrow, I wanted to swat him out of the sky.  So I did like that - just like with the Flash, the Arrow defeated the Atom by outwitting him with a trick arrow.  Experience and smarts beat out superior firepower... again.

 

Laurel does work best in small doses and not as a Sara clone.  It's ironic, though, that we like her most when she's breaking the law instead of upholding it as an officer of the court.  The curiously absent D.A. is still a question mark.  And is Laurel the only ADA left in Starling City?  (Difficult to remember that Laurel, the acting D.A., never turned in mass murderer Malcolm Merlyn to the police.)  I also question that Ray even knew the name "Black Canary".  Only Quentin has called her that and he did it sarcastically.  Did he or Laurel take out an announcement in the Starling City Times that the blonde vigilante in black leather is now called the BC?

 

It bothered me that this episode seemed to be driving home the point - with Deadshot and Diggle - that Oliver is actually right when he says he can't be both Oliver and the Arrow.  This is contrary to what we've been assuming - that Oliver will eventually realize that he can be both - and to what DR has said in interviews about how Diggle is where Oliver will be a few years down the road (having a personal life as well as fighting crime).  Is the message supposed to be that if you have a life-threatening job, then you can't have a personal life?  Well, then tell it to all the cops, firefighters, and military service personnel.

 

P.S.  MG didn't post new tumblr responses after last night's episode, so I have a feeling he got a lot of fan complaints about this episode.  Remember last week when he posted a ton of fan comments praising that episode afterwards?

Edited March 26, 2015 by tv echo

[shrewd.buddha]

I'm at a loss for words for how bad that was.

Deadshot was going to die - hence the flashbacks - - but why so stupidly?

He was shooting into the building that had the hostages and was rigged with explosives - so he had to be on top of another building, at a fair distance. How did the building he was on blow up? (And  not blow up very much, just engulfed in bad CGI flames.) Why did he talk instead of get off the building? (To get away from crazy stalker Cupid?)

 

The Atom versus Arrow showdown was also pretty lame. The wedding stuff was pretty bad, too.

And all the dialogue was dreadful. "It's my city!" "No, it's my city!" 

 

This show has really hit bottom.

[Cirien]

Steven Culp you never play a good guy,  Glad to see that hasn't changed.

He played Bobby Kennedy in  13 days alongside Bruce Greenwood.

But generally yeah he's always been smarmy characters

[blixie]

 

I think she's thrown herself headfirst into making this thing with Ray work.  Deep down I think she needs it to work to disprove Oliver's pigheadedness but I doubt she's analyzed it that deeply.

 

I agree, I don't think it's "a good look", but Oliver is frequently a total asshole and dumb as a sack of hammers, and I'm still supposed to like HIM, so I'm okay with Felicity doing something shitty every now and then. So yeah I think she is working overtime to sell herself on this to prove to Oliver how wrong he is generally (about people like "them") being able to have meaningful romantic relationships while they carry out their mission, and specifically about the two of them having one. I actually found her at the wedding as bad as the accusation of romantic jealousy/cheek kiss.

 

I love when these characters have to act like their 12 years old because if they acted like mature adults they'd already be together and happy (but not with out interesting challenges and stories). 

 

 

So the idea is that Oliver helped put Felicity back with Ray because it's what Felicity wants right now (and he'll do what he can to make her happy) but he thinks it's doomed to fail anyway?

 

It think more or less yes that is the idea, I think the problem is that Oliver can repeat this mantra till the cows come home, and  he's entitled to believe/argue that for/about his own choices/capabilities, that it is true for Arrow/Oliver Queen he personally can not do it. BUT? Please to be shutting the fuck up for every other person though Oliver, Diggle is doing it, Roy and Thea are doin it,  Nyssa and Sara were doin it. And his aside to Ray was to some point conceding that: you try with Felicity, you be the man I'm too emotionally crippled to be.While part of me is glad he's admitting it's possible, the other part of me was busy feeling grossed out that he was handing a figurative Felicity torch to Ray to carry in his stead. Such GROSS, SO WOW.

Edited March 26, 2015 by blixie

[quarks]

THis might be an unpopular opinion, but I did. I didn't get that mad that he didn't tell her about the suit, people keeping stuff from each other is such a habit for this show it didn't seem a big deal to me. But I understand why people would feel that way. I could see why he would get mad at her and not trust her. She didn't tell him about her work with the Arrow, he knows they are friends and she did admit to have feelings for him. As far as he knows, she could very well be lying and be complicit in the murdering. 

 

[....]

 

If they wanted to show a guy fighting for justice, I saw it. They had me until the "epic, epic" fight, which was so lame, and he went about being so cocky I wished his battery-operated suit lost the charge and he'd fall to the ground.

 

 

 

To clarify my point here: I have no problem with Ray getting angry after finding out that his girlfriend/VP has been secretly helping out a vigilante for years now and didn't tell him. Ray's anger there was totally justified. What I had a problem with was Ray then immediately claiming that he'd always been open and honest with her. He has not. He started deceiving her in their first meeting, when he didn't tell her who he really was. He didn't tell her why he really wanted Queen Consolidated. He didn't tell her what job he was offering her or why he hired her. He kept the development of the ATOM suit secret for months. He wasn't even open and honest with her in this episode - she didn't know about the press conference or the working suit. That was something Felicity should have immediately called him on - she did with Oliver. 

 

I was willing to give some of that a pass - after all, Oliver and Felicity's relationship didn't exactly start off on a honest note either. But to give Oliver credit, he has never told any of his romantic partners that he's always been honest with them.  When Oliver "Frequent Hypocrite" Queen comes off looking better than Ray here, that's an issue.

 

Also, Oliver's response to learning about Ray's suit was interesting: "When were you going to tell me?"  Not if, but when - even at that point, having learned that Felicity just kept something major from him, Oliver still trusted her, and figured that she would have said something eventually.  Ray didn't. And as Conell pointed out, Felicity rushed right back to Team Arrow with the news.

 

Regarding the Atom/Arrow fight - yeah, Ray came off cocky and arrogant there, which was an odd choice for a couple of reasons, but what was interesting was that throughout the episode, Oliver was the one coming off as more heroic and mentally stable - an interesting contrast/mirror of Deadshot, the other person suffering from PTSD this episode.  The show was not exactly subtle about this, showing - through Deadshot - that a lot of Oliver's problems come through that, and yet Oliver was the mentally stable one here. 

 

But the major problem with Ray this episode is the same problem that the show had with Laurel last season and to a certain extent is still having this season: he was inevitably contrasted to other, more heroic characters in this episode.  When Deadshot and Cupid are coming across as more heroic than you are, Ray, that's a problem if I'm meant to take you seriously as a hero.

[Password]

I'm watching tidbits of this episode on YouTube. Oliver and Felicity were painfully awkward when she walked over with the bouquet. And she's sighing at Ray's... Humour. Sorry every time the audience laughed I obnoxiously went HAHAHAH HAHAHHA HAHAHAHA. Why did Laurel walk away? Was she avoiding talking about Nyssa? Laurel gets a high 5 from me this episode. Even though she apparently likes Ray.

Dig and Lyla were just wonderful. They really are so settled into themselves and what they want from their relationship. They make me emotional.

Can someone ask Felicity to stop bringing up Ray. No one cares. OK, I don't care. But no one cares.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Password

[Primetimer]

A recurring villain gets some character development, just in time for it not to matter that much.

Read the story

[TVHappy9463]

Every show has it's weak filler episodes, the ones you never re watch when bingeing Buffy or The Gilmore Girls on a raining weekend. But that was just terrible, I felt bad for all the actors especially EBR, BR and SA.  There were two savings graces, Diggle's line a the beginning about not finding Ray's body if he hurts Felicity and Roy's line in the liar about how cool it was Ray built a suit, but then said it was bad when Oliver gave hi the dirty look. Both succeeded on the merits of the actor's delivery.  

Hopefully Arrow will be back next week.

 

And WTH Maseo! 

[kes0704]

I'm a bit late to the discussion but that was....I don't know....it's hard to find the words to describe just how disappointing this was after a relatively good episode last week.

I think in the producer preview MG said they were cramming in plot and I have to say he wasn't understating that. There was plot crammed in to the point where it was bursting out the seams.

Felicity going back to Ray after he said he doesn't trust her - wow. That's not the Felicity I know and love. Nice to know she's getting thrown under the bus for this tool's storyline. I'm disgusted.

I didn't think it was possible to hate Ray Palmer anymore than I did. I was wrong.

This is exactly how I feel. The writing choices for Ray seem odd for a character that they want the audience to follow to a spinoff.

To me the character whiplash with Felicity was astonishing. One minute she's defending Oliver to Ray, the next thing she's sniping at Oliver and implying that he wants Ray dead and is lying about wanting her to be happy, and then she's back to being nice to him again before going off to apologise to...Ray.

A man who threatened and physically injured her friends (and I'm pretty sure that much electrical voltage targeted at someone would kill, and not just stun them). I can get on board with the idea that Felicity is confused and upset about everything that is happening, but it is quite the emotional roller coaster for one episode.

Unfortunately this is another episode that won't be getting a second watch.

[paigow]

Ray should get spun off to Scorpion where constantly talking about your IQ and graduate degrees is normal.

[Starfish35]

Well that was...that. It didn't make me ragey but there was a whole lot of "but....that doesn't make sense" moments.

For a supposed Suicide Squad episode, the suicide squad felt more like the B plot than the A plot. That was annoying. I wanted more Suicide Squad and less of the other stuff. :( And sadly I feel like this is the last one, with Deadshot gone now.

It's a credit to the actress that plays Cupid that I like that character as much as I do. Because somehow I do really like her despite everything in my brain saying I shouldn't.

The Floyd Lawton flashback with him raging at his wife and little girl was not well done at all. It felt like a heavy-handed PSA rather than a genuine scene.

Uh, Felicity? It might be best to not go and stand in front of the window where an arrow just came through? Just saying.

The Iron Man similarities were glaring tonight. And really distracting.

What was with BR's eye?

What the hell Oliver? Roy? Laying right over there on the ground? Don't you think you might want to at least check on him?

And where did Ray hear the name "Black Canary"? Because the only other time we've heard that name is Quentin at Sara's grave using it as an insult.

And the simultaneous phones all going off with a.....news alert? What?

I'm sure there was more, but I'm too tired right now to remember.

ETA: The wedding was beautiful, if you ignore the ceremony. But who doesn't engrave it into their best man's brain when to show up for pictures (assuming those pictures are before the ceremony)? Diggle knows Oliver better than that. And if they don't show up, you're blowing up their phone, not going "ah well we'll photoshop you in". That was just dumb.

ETA2: Laurel was surprisingly fine. Of course there wasn't a lot of her, and she wasn't in the suit.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Starfish35

[Sunshine]

I liked Laurel as ADA this episode. I think it worked for me because the character she was interacting with I really have no use for. Acting tough with him works for me - my faves, not so much.

I liked Dyla, Suicide Squad (plot was dumb but so was last year's version), Steven Culp, Diggle/Oliver, Roy, 97.5% Oliver/Felicity but all that combined wasn't enough to save the episode for me from Felicity/Ray & Ray in general. I need that spin-off yesterday. Is season 3 over yet?

[Delphi]

Is it just me or did Cupid seem crazier? Like Harley Quinn level levels of crazy. They were giving me serious Assault on Arkham vibes.

[Starfish35]

Hmm no I thought she was actually toned down from her first episode. Still clearly nuts, but I was a little surprised she functioned as well as she did as part of the team.

[blackwing]

If Brandon Routh is long term on this show, I'm out.  Never mind that the Atom in the comics is a size-changer, let's give him an Iron Man copycat ripoff suit, it'll be so cool, right?  No.  He's a terrible wooden actor with crazy eyes, and in this past episode, it looked like he has a medical issue with them.  No need to go spreading that eye gook to the rest of the actors.  Fire him now.

[looptab]

To clarify my point here: I have no problem with Ray getting angry after finding out that his girlfriend/VP has been secretly helping out a vigilante for years now and didn't tell him. Ray's anger there was totally justified. What I had a problem with was Ray then immediately claiming that he'd always been open and honest with her. He has not. He started deceiving her in their first meeting, when he didn't tell her who he really was. He didn't tell her why he really wanted Queen Consolidated. He didn't tell her what job he was offering her or why he hired her. He kept the development of the ATOM suit secret for months. He wasn't even open and honest with her in this episode - she didn't know about the press conference or the working suit. That was something Felicity should have immediately called him on - she did with Oliver. 

 

 

Regarding the Atom/Arrow fight - yeah, Ray came off cocky and arrogant there, which was an odd choice for a couple of reasons, but what was interesting was that throughout the episode, Oliver was the one coming off as more heroic and mentally stable - an interesting contrast/mirror of Deadshot, the other person suffering from PTSD this episode.  The show was not exactly subtle about this, showing - through Deadshot - that a lot of Oliver's problems come through that, and yet Oliver was the mentally stable one here. 

 

But the major problem with Ray this episode is the same problem that the show had with Laurel last season and to a certain extent is still having this season: he was inevitably contrasted to other, more heroic characters in this episode.  When Deadshot and Cupid are coming across as more heroic than you are, Ray, that's a problem if I'm meant to take you seriously as a hero.

Yes, I totally see your point, and I can see that, on top of other questionable things Ray has done/said, it can put him in an even worse light than he already is. I don't think those who dislike Ray are wrong, nor that he's super amazing. I guess, since he's never bothered me much, I'm able to let this slide. To me he is just there; maybe the knowledge that he is not going to stay for much longer puts a damper on the irritation that I'd feel. I can tolerate him much more than I can tolerate Laurel, who I know is here to stay, unfortunately. 

 

I liked him in the scenes with Laurel and Oliver, but in the end, for all my tolerance, when it came the time of the big hero fight, I would have gladly smacked him. I did love when Oliver called him unstable; you're right, for all his good intentions, this arrogance is going to let him nowhere: he's just a rookie.

 

Agreed on Oliver strangely coming off as the level-headed and stable one. If only he would believe it himself, for himself.

[Lady Calypso]

So....as someone who hasn't watched the episode....should I? I mean, I like Suicide Squad, but is it really worth the hassle of watching for 42 minutes or would it be ok to skip and just accept everything that you guys have said? I've only not watched one other Arrow episode earlier this season and I seemed to be fine with that. Just out of curiosity, though, because I really don't want to waste my time if it's ultimately not worth it.

[blackwing]

So....as someone who hasn't watched the episode....should I? I mean, I like Suicide Squad, but is it really worth the hassle of watching for 42 minutes or would it be ok to skip and just accept everything that you guys have said? I've only not watched one other Arrow episode earlier this season and I seemed to be fine with that. Just out of curiosity, though, because I really don't want to waste my time if it's ultimately not worth it.

I would fast forward a LOT if you want to see it.  I liked pretty much everything involving John and Lyla.  I liked the part where Felicity nervously tells Oliver that Ray built himself a supersuit and knows that Oliver is the Arrow.  I particularly liked Oliver's delivery of the "why wouldn't you tell me this?!" line.  I would definitely fast forward everything Ray.  If there was a way to get my DVR to automatically delete scenes with Ray, I would.

[tv echo]

If you only want to watch the Oliver & Felicity scenes, or only the Ray & Felicity scenes...

 

Arrow:Oliver and Felicity 3x17 ALL SCENES

 

Arrow:Ray Palmer and Felicity 3x17 ALL SCENES

 

And here's just the wedding scenes...

 

(Didn't see any youtube videos with only Diggle & Lyla scenes.)

Edited March 26, 2015 by tv echo

[Chaser]

More random thoughts.... If we weren't beat over the head with Ray is a good guy, I would think they were setting him up to be a Lex Luthor-type. Which actually would have been interesting for the spin-off.

 

Felicity turning the conversation to them when Oliver made valid points about Ray and his training reminded me of 3.12 when Oliver turned the conversation to them when Felicity made valid points about Oliver working with Malcolm. I didn't like it when Oliver did it and I didn't like it when Felicity did it. I think a part of Felicity still wanted Oliver to fight for her. Maybe deep down hoping this would be a kick in the pants. I honestly don't think Felicity is moving on from Oliver, I think she is trying to recreate what they have/had with Ray. I hate having to put that much thought into my favorite characters actions. Do better show.

[Carrie Ann]

I will personally never watch this one again, but my recommendation would be that you watch and the second your FF-finger feels itchy, just go with that instinct until a new scene starts. And repeat. There are some okay moments buried under piles of dreck, and for me even the wedding was ruined by RP.

[TrueMyth]

*Sigh*

The past episode managed to get my hopes up, even though I knew it was a bad idea.  I hoped the focus on Diggle, Lyla, and the Squad, and a newly established equilibrium for Felicity and Oliver would allow this episode to maintain the quality "The Offer."

 

The Squad storyline was fun, but not quite as dynamic as I'd hoped.  I feel like we needed at least one more crazy in the mix.  I don't think Deadshot is dead.  Especially since his flashbacks were only shared with the audience.  I had not assumed that he worked for H.I.V.E. exhaustively, or that Andy was his first target.  Both of these revelations highlight the significance of that hit and bring big questions to the fore, but there are no characters "alive" to pursue that line if Deadshot is gone. 

 

I must say, I'm disappointed with the production values this season.  Within this episode alone, I've seen people comment on the CGI of the suit, the acting/production of the flashbacks, and obvious reuse of sets.  I must agree with most of them (I'm not eagle-eyed enough to really key on most of the set things), and I would go so far as to say the episodes as a whole have lost some of the unified sparkle and mood that most of season one and two possessed.  I don't know what to attribute this to.  I know some have named the shared facilities with The Flash.  If this is the case, I despair of the effects of the TeamMashup Spin-off.  Others suggest that the show simply can't handle the CGI requirements of BIG effects.  I think the horrible but not flashy green screening in "The Return" was due to the time spent on the suit's initial flight... Shows these days require effects for more than just the big stuff because the emphasis on practical effects is so little now.  If not for all that silly flying, I'm sure someone could have scrubbed BR's scenes and cleared up that pink-eye, for example.  I also wonder if there has been a bigger change in the production that is to blame for this decline in quality.  I know the big EPs are spread thin, but I would not be surprised to hear that the director of photography has changed, or that they shifted effects houses.  It sucks.

 

I'm going to need to let the relationship stuff marinate in my mind a bit.  It was disappointing.  I did love the looks Felicity and Oliver sent each other at the top of the episode.  It felt like good continuity from the last episode before all the Secret!Betrayal! crap.

 

Also, I'm going to predict that Ray proposes to Felicity by the end of the season, based on this episode alone.  Not only did we have the bouquet catch, but we also had the final Ray/Felicity scene with the talk of "true partners" and Ray's "when I make an offer..."

Edited March 26, 2015 by TrueMyth

[SonofaBiscuit]

I admit, I wasn't home and didn't even watch this episode (don't plan to after reading these comments, yikes!) so I'm just going by what people have posted.  

 

This is what confuses me. Oliver acts like Felicity chose Ray over him, when she blatantly said last week that he chose not to be with her. It's very frustrating because it's almost as if he did throw his hat and the ring and failed. Does he not realise what he did? Does he assume that because she didn't hang around that she was rejecting him? It's like he thinks he asked her to wait for him because he said "maybe not ever".

Confusion reigns.

 

I've noticed that the writers like to show a scenario happening one way and then later insist that's not what happened!  They did this in season 2 with Ivo shooting Shado.  Oliver never chose between Shado and Sara, but he kept claiming that Shado was dead because he chose Sara.  Like whut?  That never happened.  Then this season, didn't Oliver express some regret over hesitating to kill Ra's?  I actually watched the Ra's/Oliver duel, and I don't ever remember that happening, but whatever.

 

Uh, Felicity? It might be best to not go and stand in front of the window where an arrow just came through? Just saying.
 

 

Why would they do this when people were calling Laurel out for the same thing earlier this season (when she was twisting that guy's arm in the hospital room)?  Why do they have Felicity crying all of the time when that's one of the reasons people disliked Laurel for the last two seasons?  With some of the questionable stuff that Felicity has done this season, I too am wondering if the strategy is to bring her down a few pegs so Laurel will look better in comparison.  This is the reason that not watching has proven to be a good idea.  If I haven't seen some of the OOC stuff from Felicity, then her character remains intact.  If I don't see it, maybe it won't sour me on the character, and I can someday go back to watching the show (unless one of these epic game changers completely ruin it for me).

[apinknightmare]

I didn't get the sense that Oliver was telling Ray that Felicity chose Ray over him - he emphasized "chose" when he said "she chose you." So, he's not telling Ray that Felicity chose Ray over him, he's telling her that she chose Ray as a person that she wants to be in a relationship with and because of that he needs to trust her.

Why would they do this when people were calling Laurel out for the same thing earlier this season (when she was twisting that guy's arm in the hospital room)?  

 

To be fair, Laurel walked up to the window and looked out of it. Felicity just kind of stood near it while she looked down at the mayor in shock. Not a smart move, but not exactly the same thing.

[BunsenBurner]

Watched the show. Not impressed. Not sure if I or the others that watch with me will be watching any more episodes of Arrow and definitely no more episodes of Flash.

Thought all plot lines were bad. They could have been much better.

We decided that the best scene was Laurel and Ray. It was the first time Ray had even a spark of chemistry with anyone in Arrow. They played off each other really well. Their verbal sparring was actually believable which is saying a lot for either of them.

The little girl who played Lawton's daughter was excellent. Best child actor on the show so far.

Sad a show has to fail because they wanted another spinoff.

[bmoore4026]

Said it before, saying it again: Ray Palmer - douche in the comics, douche on this show.