Michelle and JimBob aka J'Chelle and Boob

[Cinnabon]

54 minutes ago, cmr2014 said:

It's interesting, too, that marriage elevates children -- who are evil and sinful and too immature to handle anything on their own -- into adults with their own direct line to God and umbrellaship. 

And men being the ones who apparently “can’t control themselves “ around women, yet they are the ones in charge? Sounds like women are the ones with self discipline who can control their uncomfortable desires.

Edited December 18, 2021 by Cinnabon

[Churchhoney]

36 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Reproductive abuse is also a huge issue. Anything to keep women (especially very young women without much sex Ed) trapped and bound to men. 
 

Reproductive abuse is when a person tries to control your reproductive choices in order to control your life. Reproductive abuse is also often called “reproductive coercion.” Coercion is when a person tries to persuade someone to do something by using force or threats.

https://www.womenslaw.org/about-abuse/forms-abuse/reproductive-abuse-and-coercion

So when Jessa married Bin, Bin’s dad is now supposed to be her “umbrella” instead of JB?

Yeah, there are definitely accounts of this form of patriarchy that put all offspring under the ultimate authority of their living patriarch, so when a male offspring becomes an umbrella himself, there's a kind of ultimate authority still over him......The wisdom of age is a big thing with some of them......So that extends in some ways to the people the offspring is umbrella-ing.......

But other people's accounts don't include a father-in-law in the umbrella tree -- and I'm sure they definitely do that when they don't like the guy's theology....

There's a lot of jockeying to be regarded as an ultimate authority among these guys, I think....

[LilJen]

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

And men being the ones who apparently “can’t control themselves “ around women, yet they are the ones in charge? Sounds like women are the ones with self discipline who can control their uncomfortable desires.

Women don’t HAVE sexual desires. They want only to please mommy and daddy and husband. If they want anything other than that, they need to pray harder.🙄

and all this umbrella talk is making me think of one particularly epic Lip Sync Battle from a few years back.

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by LilJen
Added

[cmr2014]

54 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Yeah, there are definitely accounts of this form of patriarchy that put all offspring under the ultimate authority of their living patriarch, so when a male offspring becomes an umbrella himself, there's a kind of ultimate authority still over him......The wisdom of age is a big thing with some of them......So that extends in some ways to the people the offspring is umbrella-ing.......

But other people's accounts don't include a father-in-law in the umbrella tree -- and I'm sure they definitely do that when they don't like the guy's theology....

There's a lot of jockeying to be regarded as an ultimate authority among these guys, I think....

I think that this might have been part of the Jessa/Ben marriage agreement: they would live in Tontitown under JB's "umbrella" because of the show (or whatever), but really because JB is a control freak and losing one of his assets to another man's umbrella would have been a no-go.

That may have been part of Derick's appeal, too. Derick was relatively young and vulnerable and in need of an "umbrella" and therefore okay for courtship.

It was probably also the main issue with Jeremy. In their book, Jinger/Jeremy present it as "theological issues," and they might think of it that way, but we would probably recognize it as power and control issues.

[Churchhoney]

18 hours ago, cmr2014 said:

 

It was probably also the main issue with Jeremy. In their book, Jinger/Jeremy present it as "theological issues," and they might think of it that way, but we would probably recognize it as power and control issues.

Yeah, because does JB (or M, for that matter) actually know anything or care at all about "theological issues," despite what they sometimes pretend? No, but they sure do care about their own power and influence. 

Edited December 19, 2021 by Churchhoney

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

And men being the ones who apparently “can’t control themselves “ around women, yet they are the ones in charge? Sounds like women are the ones with self discipline who can control their uncomfortable desires.

That pretty much sums up mainstream society too. Rape victims are still asked, what were you wearing, why did you go in the house, why were you out alone at night, why did you flirt with him, etc.

Also, men are still trying to make reproductive decisions for women.

[SMama]

24 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Also, men are still trying to make reproductive decisions for women.

Sadly, men ARE making reproductive decisions for women, all one has to do is peruse the news. 😡

[JustRosie]

3 hours ago, merylinkid said:

Moms do the schooling because they are home all day with the kids.   Dad is out working at his business to make money to support the family.   Dad can't take time from earning to support the family to actually "educate" the kids.   But Mom since her job is in the home, is in charge of the One Table Schoolhouse.

Very true. And it makes it more puzzling that girls are not better educated since they are responsible for educating the next generation of headships, business owners, politicians etc. 

[GeeGolly]

9 minutes ago, Namaste said:

Very true. And it makes it more puzzling that girls are not better educated since they are responsible for educating the next generation of headships, business owners, politicians etc. 

I think that's because they don't think jobs like owning a business, being a politician, etc. need anything more than a basic education.

[JustRosie]

Just now, GeeGolly said:

I think that's because they don't think jobs like owning a business, being a politician, etc. need anything more than a basic education.

True. Anything requiring critical thinking skills and insight. 

[mynextmistake]

On 12/16/2021 at 8:45 PM, Zella said:

I don't think people being expected to support their own children is punishment. And as per other comments I've posted today, I'm not really a believer in enabling bad behavior by people just because they're family. All the kids relying on the precarious house of cards that is Jim Bob was never a good idea, and I don't think it's problematic or cruel to point that out and to say it should end. It's not too different, to my mind, than thinking they're not entitled to a TV show just because that's how they've always earned their money. If Jim Bob goes down, maybe Anna and Michelle can actually get a job. Like millions of other people who support their own kids.

Thank you. One of the things that bothers me about fundie women like Michelle and Anna is that they act like being a stay-at-home homeschooling mom is a some kind of God-given right, and it’s not. If you want to be a SAHM who homeschools, and you can make it work for your family, great. But if you can’t make it work, you’d better be prepared to get out there and hustle to put food on the table, because nobody has an obligation to support your kids except you. 

I’m also not sure I understand the argument that it would somehow be harmful to the M kids for Anna to have to get a job instead of relying on JB. Yes, Anna is poorly educated and has no marketable skills, but she’s perfectly capable of getting a retail job, and the Target in my town is currently paying $18+/hour. As other people have noted, she would probably also qualify for a plethora of public assistance like rental assistance, WIC, food stamps, daycare subsidies, Medicaid, and possibly even cash aid. The kids wouldn’t have the life they are used to, but nobody would freeze or starve. Sure, Anna would have to give up homeschooling, but millions of kids in this country attend public schools and they get by just fine. 

 

 

[sixlets]

 

2 minutes ago, sixlets said:

Last night I was perusing YouTube and watched this video.  The husband is ex-FLDS (from the Warren Jeffs group), and the wife is
ex-LDS.  They are the parents of two young kids and practice no religion.  The similarities between the FLDS and Gothard is disgusting.  They went into the whole 'umbrella' topic and how women are supposed to "keep sweet".  Between JB's questionnaire and the FLDS guide on how to be a wife, these women have no future.  And, since we all know women in both groups are meant to procreate, they are just teaching the next generation to be beneath dirt.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by sixlets

[merylinkid]

4 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I think that's because they don't think jobs like owning a business, being a politician, etc. need anything more than a basic education.

Nope, they just pray and the Right Jesus guides them and gives them a great business.

The vast majority of these folks living in RVS or cramming 8 kids in one room because they can only afford a small house would say otherwise but its not like they folks stop and think about these things.   The only reason the Duggars got the big house finished was the tv show.   Otherwise they would still be in a tiny house trying to scrape up cash to buy some more properties. to flip instead of handing them over to grown kids.

[Churchhoney]

19 hours ago, Namaste said:

Very true. And it makes it more puzzling that girls are not better educated since they are responsible for educating the next generation of headships, business owners, politicians etc. 

Once again showing that they don't respect education. Instead, they tend to despise it. After all, it's that thinking stuff and that questing after knowledge stuff that IS the original sin of humans against God. 

If you're a guy who has the right faith in the right Jesus, you don't need no stinkin' knowledge. So some woman is good enough to "teach" you , since all you need is to memorize the "wisdom" of those men of faith who came before. Neither the female "teachers" nor the "students" need to engage in any thought. And in fact they're basically ordered not to.  They just rote-memorize stuff so they can spout it without understanding. So of course even a woman can manage "education" of that sort. 

Note the videos of Meeechelle "teaching" Josie to spout Psalm 1, KJV, with neither of them understanding a word of it. Ditto Jessa and whichever of her kids we've seen be "taught" to spout it as well. 

It isn't just that women teach because they're home all day. It's because the last things the leaders of these groups want is for anybody to be actually taught to use their brains to pursue ideas in a logical way or innovate or create. So women, the despised gender made only to follow men's rules, are perfectly fine "teachers" of rote memorization.

The way they tell it, God gave people brains only to tempt us. "Following your reason" rather than just doing "faithfully" what the patriarchs have told you to do is a quick way to hell. 

This is why I say it's a joke that Gothard actually wanted to train up young men as "leaders." In the view of all these people, those young people would only be trained to loudly and pushily carry on the messages that were formulated in detail by the older generation and that the young are simply ordered to memorize.......He isn't in favor of training any "leaders" who might produce critiques of the old ways and come up with innovations. But that's what real leaders do. 

If you want to see what happens in a religion/cult when many actually start to consciously unpick all this patriarchy stuff and try to work their way through the mess a patriarchy very similar to the Duggarly one has created as it assembled a lot of power and money just in the past 150 years, listen to Mormon Stories podcast or watch their youtube channel.

When your overall religion has come down to you over a thousand-or-more years (like almost all the other major religions), it's much easier to accept harmful stuff that's developed, like the patriarchy, without much questioning. There's a reason the word "time-honored" was invented. But because LDS is a religion that was created in the modern era, it's been easier for more believers to notice the craziness of quite a few of their traditions and practices and how much of it just amounts to a power and money grab by a limited number of men and families (despite the fact that most agree that the religion also has good things in it that have benefited people as well). 
 

Edited December 19, 2021 by Churchhoney

[AgathaC]

I recall a sermon once where the pastor told the story of a man who was in prison and only had the Bible to read. He eventually had all these lists and statistics — the number of times X was said, the number of times Y happened, etc. But, the pastor said, the man missed the point. He didn’t think at all about what it meant or what messages there might really be.

I think of that when I hear about the Duggars and their memorization and patriarchy.

In Methodism, we’re big on the Wesleyan quadrilateral: four things that, together, should make up spiritual faith and beliefs and that you can’t/shouldn’t have one without the others. Scripture, experience, tradition and REASON. I was always taught reason and critical thinking were super-important and questioning things was encouraged. The Gothard way really creeps me out.

The lockstep allegiance and lack of independent thought is just scary across the board.

Edited December 19, 2021 by AgathaC

[merylinkid]

Bringing this over from Jill's thread because its really more about Head Idiot:

@FizzyPuff said:  I can imagine JB screaming at his lawyers that they better do everything they can to get him out, whilst throwing loads of money at them. 

Oh no, JB is waaaay too cheap to throw more money at this problem.   he's probably screaming at them that they better fix it after all he paid them, and making it clear he expects it done for free.   Since they messed it up in the first place.   Couldn't be that CONVICTED PEDOPHILE was guilty.   Nope, the ungodly lawyers screwed up.  

[Albanyguy]

1 hour ago, Churchhoney said:

Note the videos of Meeechelle "teaching" Josie to spout Psalm 1, KJV, with neither of them understanding a word of it.

The one thing I remember about that is how the leghumpers went into ecstasy over it: how brilliant Josie was to memorize all that at such a young age (despite the fact that you could clearly hear Michelle feeding her the lines off camera), what a Godly inspirational mother Michelle was, etc. 

This is another reason why the Duggars see no need to grow or change and why they think that they're perfect just the way they are. No matter how lazy or slovenly they appear to us, their fans stroke their egos by lavishing them with exaggerated, undeserved praise (which also makes it easy to dismiss anyone who criticizes them as a "hater").

[EllaWycliffe]

On 12/16/2021 at 10:41 PM, Tuxcat said:

would you want to punish Josie, Johannah, Jennifer, Jordyn, Tyler, Anna's kids... for the bad ethics/actions of their father (s)? If you were their sister, is that what you would want?

Late to this particular party but....

No one cares what happens to the kids when ANYONE goes to jail. Stop and consider if Josh and Anna didn't have Jimbob and Michelle financing things - Josh going to prison would leave Anna financially devastated with seven kids. Comparatively speaking - Anne is lucky she has in laws willing to pitch in because her husband going to prison leaving her with a bunch of kids often leads to everyone ending up in foster care. 

Likewise Josie, Johannah, Jordyn etc missing out on being wealthy upper middle class religious fundies if Jimbob and Michelle go down for tax fraud or whatever. I feel bad for the younger kids in that they won't get to profit off the reality show but really, I don't get that ride to fame under Jimbob "I control everything" and Michelle "It was just touching" Duggar has been easy for any of the older siblings.

They have shitty parents. Thats something they share with a lot of people - these people just happen to be famous. I have sympathy for all the Duggar children, including Josh, because their parents are AWFUL but there's a point where I am not boo hooing if Jimbob getting caught out means the kids have to leave their weird little bubble where they're better than the wicked non believers. 

[Nysha]

On 12/17/2021 at 8:14 PM, Churchhoney said:

However, I think there's a ton of evidence that Gothard himself always spoke out of both sides of his mouth on the "raise young men to be leaders" point. .... Because Gothard -- and the rest of them -- deliberately took JB and M as the ideal image for the cult. So no matter what they might have been saying out of one side of their mouths about young men being raised to be leaders, they were putting a family where that absolutely didn't happen at all -- and was never intended to happen -- up in front of people as the ideal family. 

I agree that Gothard and the higher uppers knew and approved the chains JB has put on his sons, but for the other cult followers up until In Touch and Ashley Madison, it did look like JB had launched his sons in Gothard-approved ways. The pervert was in a prestige position in DC and JD had his own towing business and was a volunteer firefighter. Plus, Jill was married to a missionary and Jessa was married to a hot boy taking classes to be a preacher.  

We suspected then and know now that it was all smoke and mirrors with JB as the wizard behind the curtain, but I think it took the other cult followers a lot longer to connect the dots. And even now, JB has a 'job' title for each of his sons that makes it look like they're independent.

[Churchhoney]

46 minutes ago, Nysha said:

I agree that Gothard and the higher uppers knew and approved the chains JB has put on his sons, but for the other cult followers up until In Touch and Ashley Madison, it did look like JB had launched his sons in Gothard-approved ways. The pervert was in a prestige position in DC and JD had his own towing business and was a volunteer firefighter. Plus, Jill was married to a missionary and Jessa was married to a hot boy taking classes to be a preacher.  

We suspected then and know now that it was all smoke and mirrors with JB as the wizard behind the curtain, but I think it took the other cult followers a lot longer to connect the dots. And even now, JB has a 'job' title for each of his sons that makes it look like they're independent.

Yeah, that makes sense. The hollowness within has been well camouflaged to those who hope that it's solid.....

Edited December 19, 2021 by Churchhoney

[drafan]

52 minutes ago, Nysha said:

 Plus, Jill was married to a missionary and Jessa was married to a hot boy taking classes to be a preacher. 

So Jessa WAS married before?.....

[Cinnabon]

10 minutes ago, drafan said:

So Jessa WAS married before?.....

Exactly my reaction 😆

[crazy8s]

JB certainly sabotaged JED! allowing the filming and airing of the adult brothers living away from home with their beds a foot apart. JED! website was flooded with comments about that. I want to be a leader, but live in a house with a ping pong table in the living room. I live in a house with 3 bedrooms, I share a bedroom with my twin, and oh yeah they are our little sisters old twin beds as seen on tv

[Absolom]

5 hours ago, AgathaC said:

In Methodism, we’re big on the Wesleyan quadrilateral: four things that, together, should make up spiritual faith and beliefs and that you can’t/shouldn’t have one without the others. Scripture, experience, tradition and REASON. I was always taught reason and critical thinking were super-important and questioning things was encouraged. The Gothard way really creeps me out.

I was taught faith without reason is not true faith.

I've always had issues with the Duggar obedience without questioning and emphasis on memorization.

Memorization made sense in the day when people couldn't read.  Now the Bible is on my phone.  None of us with phones need to spend hours memorizing.  It's time better spent understanding.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Absolom

[AgathaC]

Yeah, it’s not anything terribly special to memorize — especially for a young child. I memorized The Jabberwocky when I was 5. Doesn’t mean I had a clue what I was saying…

Kids, in particular, are good at memorizing. Their brains are like sponges. But teaching them to think about what they’re learning and to understand and talk about its meaning is a different matter.

When I was in sixth grade I went through confirmation at my church, which you had to do before truly joining, we learned the history and beliefs of the Methodist church, but also about other denominations and religions, attending other churches’ services and meeting with the local imam and rabbi (who led us in a Seder). The point? You can’t commit to something and know what you believe unless you also learn about what others believe. Also, that it’s important to respect other beliefs and see all the ways we’re similar.

My parents were always big on “think for yourself.” Blind obedience never leads anywhere good. Certainly not historically…

[GeeGolly]

I'm laughing thinking of all the things that folks memorize that get totally twisted, from the Pledge of Allegiance to everyday songs.

One time my husband and I were in the car listening to the radio. An oldie came on and we turned it up and started singing along. It got to one part in the song and we looked at each other as neither of us knew the words to that part. We laughed, shrugged our shoulders, mumbled a few bars and kept singing away.

Jessa was recently having the kids memorize the verses of the birth of Jesus. At their age, why not just tell them the story and let them learn the Bible verses later.

[crazy8s]

14 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Jessa was recently having the kids memorize the verses of the birth of Jesus. At their age, why not just tell them the story and let them learn the Bible verses later.

my thought on that was the Duggar church christmas play is probably happening soon and Spurge is going to be the "star" reciting the KJV of the christmas story for an audience of whoever is still willing to attend the church of JB

[SMama]

2 hours ago, crazy8s said:

JB certainly sabotaged JED! allowing the filming and airing of the adult brothers living away from home with their beds a foot apart. JED! website was flooded with comments about that. I want to be a leader, but live in a house with a ping pong table in the living room. I live in a house with 3 bedrooms, I share a bedroom with my twin, and oh yeah they are our little sisters old twin beds as seen on tv

JB didn’t get to decide what was aired. I think this is another JB controls everything narrative that somehow has morphed into fact. I recall a clip from a looking back episode where Josie seemed to have a blow out diaper past the age when it’s normal. JB holds her at arms length while calling for Jana to clean it up. A producer was asked why air that scene, he laughed and said it was good TV (or something like that), then doubled down and said he’d do it over again. The only power JB had was to not do the show, once he signed a contract Figure 8 and TLC made the decisions.

[crazy8s]

well the fiasco of JED! and Jeer sharing the room was certainly ridiculous TV.

agree TLC liked making the duggars look like idiots rather than show them as the hateful, bigoted people they are

[emmawoodhouse]

Didn't they show some of the boys getting together at Jed's house? I think I remember them eating burgers off the ping pong table. It just screamed lame bachelor pad. 

[Zella]

7 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Didn't they show some of the boys getting together at Jed's house? I think I remember them eating burgers off the ping pong table. It just screamed lame bachelor pad. 

I believe so. It's the only other episode I've watched besides the marriage retreat. I just remember they kept unironically talking about life in the big house contrasted with their new home, and it made me laugh my ass off and feel deeply sorry for them at the same time that they didn't pick up on the irony of talking about home in prison terms. 

[emmawoodhouse]

The scene TLC portrayed looked so normal until they showed the bedroom with the girls' twin beds. That was everyone's WTF moment. It was clear that there were still rules, no matter how "independent" they tried to portray them. 

[crazy8s]

I seem to remember they had steak. Just steak and nothing else and one of the little boys was given a steak. Spurge maybe?

 

 

[BigBingerBro]

20 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

they showed the bedroom with the girls' twin beds.

It makes me wonder if they think it's perfectly acceptable for two grown men & brothers to share a room like that?  I mean, it shouldn't be odd, but most guys their age wants their own space and privacy.   What's the purpose of this, some sort of IBLP masterbation accountability enforcement??

[jschoolgirl]

10 minutes ago, BigBingerBro said:

What's the purpose of this, some sort of IBLP masterbation accountability enforcement??

Bingo.

[emmawoodhouse]

11 minutes ago, crazy8s said:

I seem to remember they had steak. Just steak and nothing else and one of the little boys was given a steak. Spurge maybe?

 

 

Was it steak? Whatever it was, they are off the ping pong table.

[Cinnabon]

12 minutes ago, BigBingerBro said:

It makes me wonder if they think it's perfectly acceptable for two grown men & brothers to share a room like that?  I mean, it shouldn't be odd, but most guys their age wants their own space and privacy.   What's the purpose of this, some sort of IBLP masterbation accountability enforcement??

Did they accompany each other to the bathroom, too? What about when they took showers? Plenty of opportunities lol.

[Zella]

Looks like burgers, which is what I remembered. IIRC one of them couldn't cook worth shit, but I can't remember details. 

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt12831944/mediaviewer/rm846199297/

Oh actually per the summary of the episode, neither rocket scientist twin could cook, so their married siblings had to take over making the burgers. Great job prepping them for independence, Jim Bob and Michelle.

https://www.duggarfamilyblog.com/2020/07/a-duggar-bachlor-pad-recap.html

Edited December 20, 2021 by Zella

[GeeGolly]

3 minutes ago, Zella said:

Looks like burgers, which is what I remembered. IIRC one of them couldn't cook worth shit, but I can't remember details. 

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt12831944/mediaviewer/rm846199297/

Oh actually per the summary of the episode, neither rocket scientist twin could cook, so their married siblings had to take over making the burgers. Great job prepping them for independence, Jim Bob and Michelle.

https://www.duggarfamilyblog.com/2020/07/a-duggar-bachlor-pad-recap.html

I believe they had a second gathering as well. JD, Ben and Spurge were there and they ate steak at the coffee table.

[crazy8s]

the batchelor pad episode was indeed burgers

but there was another episode that involved steaks a batchelor party maybe

also there was this gem of wisdom on sharing a bedroom

"So we are both twins and so really, our beds are right next to each other at the big house and all that," Jedidiah explains. "So I was like, well, if we can fit two twin mattresses in here, it'd be great."

"Because we're twins, so might as well fit twin mattresses," Jeremiah adds.

[Zella]

2 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I believe they had a second gathering as well. JD, Ben and Spurge were there and they ate steak at the coffee table.

Ah okay that is not one I saw! I wonder if JD and Ben had to cook for Jert and Jernie too. 

[GeeGolly]

Just now, Zella said:

Ah okay that is not one I saw! I wonder if JD and Ben had to cook for Jert and Jernie too. 

I think it was a guy's baby shower for JD.

[drafan]

1 minute ago, crazy8s said:

the batchelor pad episode was indeed burgers

but there was another episode that involved steaks a batchelor party maybe

also there was this gem of wisdom on sharing a bedroom

"So we are both twins and so really, our beds are right next to each other at the big house and all that," Jedidiah explains. "So I was like, well, if we can fit two twin mattresses in here, it'd be great."

"Because we're twins, so might as well fit twin mattresses," Jeremiah adds.

Bet they never spent one night there.....probably never lived there either.

[GeeGolly]

Found it.

https://soapdirt.com/counting-on-jeremiah-duggar-passes-up-jim-bob-michelle/

[Zella]

9 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Found it.

https://soapdirt.com/counting-on-jeremiah-duggar-passes-up-jim-bob-michelle/

Quote

 Michelle Duggar shared her shock that Jim Bob Duggar and the boys only had steak – without salad or sides.

God, when Michelle perks up out of her stupor to question your domestic skills, you've got problems. 

[irisheyes]

Where was their crusty bread and a big green salad?  😂😂

[jcbrown]

2 hours ago, crazy8s said:

gree TLC liked making the duggars look like idiots rather than show them as the hateful, bigoted people they are

Just too bad they felt they had to choose...

[xwordfanatik]

1 hour ago, Zella said:

Ah okay that is not one I saw! I wonder if JD and Ben had to cook for Jert and Jernie too. 

Jert and Jernie  🤣

 

[Zella]

1 minute ago, xwordfanatik said:

Jert and Jernie  🤣

 

I can't take credit for that one! I saw that somewhere last year, and it cracked me up so much that I had to start using it for them myself. LOLOL 

[Ohiopirate02]

Jert and Jernie sounds a lot like Jean and Jorts, two cats who took the internet by storm last week.