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Tara Ariano

S29.E11: Kind Of Like Cream Cheese (11) / Still Holdin' On (12)

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I don't think that Keith and Alec saw a chance at voting out Missy so why not vote with everyone and give the appearance of being willing to work with the others. Voting against Missy at that point just further alienates Missy and Baylor reducing Keith and Alec's options.

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The way Baylor turned to her mom, expecting her mom to defend her (which Missy did) was like what "Kieth" said a few episodes back about how whenever someone asks Baylor to do work around camp,

 

 

What always amused me about that exchange was when Missy came back with "but be fair Keith, you do the same with Wes..." Even before Keith said that wasn't true, I said "bullshit" to the television. I know editing doesn't show everything but I'm sorry, there is nothing about Keith that says coddler to me and I don't believe for one second he was treating Wes like Missy treats Baylor.

 

 Baylor gets her mom to do it instead or when Baylor found out people were voting for her and she asked Missy to go convince them otherwise.

 

 

Yeah I don't dislike Baylor like others but that was the thing that made me roll my eyes and truly see what some were saying about their relationship. I guess I could buy that in her mind, her mom was the one really close to Jon so better to have her talk to him. But in my opinion, she could have used that relationship when making her case to Jon but ultimately, she was the one on the chopping block and at the end of the day the game is still an individual game, so go save yourself instead of sitting around and expecting Mommy to do it for you.

 

Reed's face was so damn annoying in the jury box. He's such a annoying bitter person. Sorry your social game was shit, Reed! I did enjoy his boot immensely. Jeremy looks bitter as hell over on the jury too, but I just find it funny and not annoying.

 

 

I did not think Reed looked bitter so much as he looked impassive which many jury members have done in the past and makes sense to me. It gives nothing away to the players of what they're thinking, who they may be leaning towards voting for at the end, etc. Added to that, Reed's Ponderosa video, as well as his exit speech gave no indication in my opinion of bitterness.

 

He expressed how much he loved playing the game and even joked that on some level it was even an honor having Jeff snuff his torch. I also don't think Jeremy is really that bitter anymore either but he said in his Ponderosa video that he was going to deliberately look like he's mad on the jury to intimidate the players and make them wonder about what he'll do in the final vote. 

Edited by truthaboutluv
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I totally get all the criticism of Jon, whereas I actually find him to be very good-looking and a lot smarter and more aware than Jacquelyn.  That's why he was practically like "Ok, DUh... STHU!" When Jac confronted him after his Castaway days.

 

It's Jac that I find really "vapid" (perfect word used by another poster).  I can't even see why they're together.

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But I hate when others feel entitled to comment aloud on anyone's parenting style.

 

You must have a hard time reading these forums, then. :)

 

I think Reed let his frustration at the fact that his entire game was dying get the best of him, and the entitled/annoying attitude of Baylor became the object of that frustration.  My friends and I will tell each other, "stop being a brat," or "sorry for being such a brat just then."  I guess I don't see it as such a huge insult as Missy does.  Also, saying a young woman is acting like a brat to her face is not *necessarily* an indictment of her mother's parenting style, in the same way it would be if it was said about a toddler behaving badly in a public space. But I guess if you have a co-dependent, dysfunctional mother/daughter relationship, anything said to your daughter is also about you.  Come to think of it, Missy IS a brat, too!  Flipping the bird, while prancing off arm-in-arm with her daughter was a nice demonstration of that.  Reed did at least have the self-awareness to regret his actions and feel ashamed of them. 

 

Between Missy/Baylor, Alec/Drew's sibling rivalry, and Jon/Jaclyn's fight, this show could be used in a Psychology 101 class to demonstrate dysfunctional relationships.

 

As Jon and Jaclyn were fighting and demonstrating the most cliched, immature relationship dynamics (#silenttreatment, really producers?!) I was thinking that maybe Burnett/Probst cast young people not ONLY because they have firm bodies, but also because their ability to navigate social dynamics is still unformed by experience, neurological development, and just general psychological maturity. 

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Come to think of it, Missy IS a brat, too! 

 

She certainly is. And it's a lot harder to take, IMO, coming from a 40 year old woman than a just-out-of-her-teens woman.

 

I totally get all the criticism of Jon, whereas I actually find him to be very good-looking and a lot smarter and more aware than Jacquelyn.  That's why he was practically like "Ok, DUh... STHU!" When Jac confronted him after his Castaway days.

 

But Jon pretty much has no real idea what's going on. One example, when he and Jaclyn finally woke up from their hours long nap, Jaclyn pointed out to him that there was a weird vibe and he was all "No it's fine,' when actually Natalie had been spending the day plotting Jon's demise. I know he then had a confessional where he was like, "Oh yea I totes saw that weird vibe," but his initial reaction was to not see what was clear. Also, last week, he clearly had no idea that something was gonna go down at TC and when Jaclyn tried to tell him something was up, he shot her down. And even still he was clearly not gonna play his idol until Natalie told him to. He just seems pretty unperceptive to me. I think it might be coming more from arrogance than anything else though.

Edited by peachmangosteen
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One thing I've really missed this season is someone to hate and now I have it and it's a couple. Jon and Jaclyn may be tolerable on an individual basis but as a set they're the couple from hell that my husband and I usually end up doing things with because no on else will put up with them.  Jaclyn has Jon totally whipped, groveling to her every wish, while all the while convinced he's in charge because he's good at Alpha male posturing and straight up lying to himself.   Meanwhile, Jaclyn spends her days demanding that all about her show constant favors and total "respect," while never once thinking that maybe other people might deserve a little respect as well.  The silent treatment is my least favorite thing in the world, those who dish it out deserve to find no one waiting when they decide to grant forgiveness.

 

May Keith sit and spit his way to the million.

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Jon is an asshole, all he cares about is final tribal, & he never listens to what Jaclyn says when he gets back from exile. I loved when this happened though:

Jon: I’m getting the silent treatment now from Jaclyn

Survivor: #SILENTTREATMENT

 

I don’t think I understand Natalie’s reasoning for bringing Jon on reward, why does she think she needs to make Jon any more comfortable than he already is? Also, I would only invite a couple to share a bed with me if I wanted a threesome.

 

#SILENTTREATMENT is a win... #WINKWINK, not so much. Between Josh, Reed, and John, somebody's going to strain a muscle there.

 

When Natalie won reward, I thought it was a bit odd to choose both Jon and Jacklyn, to share a bed. You're risking being an unwilling participant in cozy-snuggle-time. Jacklyn and Missy would have made sense to me, and you'd have avoided annoying wine conversation. But I do get that Natalie wanted to cement her tie with the other couple, plus she did get the confirmation that Jon found another immunity idol.

 

I totally agree.  For the sake of a shaky expectation of support from Keith (who will grab whatever life preserver ANYBODY will throw him in the game at this point), Natalie destabilized her entire alliance.  My DVR cut off the end of the episode so I didn't get to see the vote recap - but (judging from their reactions) it appeared Jon, Jaclyn and Missy were all blindsided by the turn of the vote.  Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the biggest blowback came from Missy.

 

 

I'm also someone who hated Natalie at the start, and cannot believe I am rooting for her now. I think I understand her thinking in wanting to keep Keith and dump Alec, and not even consider voting for Jaclyn this week. As many of you have pointed out already, Keith is someone who could be useful in keeping Jon from winning immunity. But also, I think Natalie has more confidence in being able to keep Keith loyal to her than she would with Alec. Especially after seeing Baylor softening up to Alec shmoozing her earlier that day! It's true that Baylor ultimately didn't buy what Alec was selling, but given a few more days out there together, and Baylor's possibly being an apple that didn't fall far from the Missy Tree, who knows what headway Alec might have made there. Alec isn't getting any jury votes, but he might have been able to sway Baylor (and Missy) to turn against Natalie and vote her out, after they got rid of J/J.

And I think that not voting out Jaclyn can be explained fairly easily, too. It's part of keeping J/J comfortable until she can get rid of Jon. I'm sure that if Jaclyn had been voted out, Jon would have become angry, and felt betrayed, and started to play much more aggressively — having belatedly realized that he is not in control of the game. Giving him a reason to make more of an effort just seems to guarantee that he'd go on an immunity run, and end up sitting at FTC. I don't think Natalie flipping her vote to Alec is that much of a gameplay faux pas as some of you think. Besides the "oops, I thought I was supposed to vote for Alec" play, she could also confide in Jon and Jaclyn that she feared Alec was going to sway their loyal alliance-mate, Baylor, with his wily charms. Jaclyn would certainly believe that, and Jon is so easily led that I don't see it problematic at all for Natalie to convince him of it, too. And Missy and Baylor wouldn't need any handling with regard to this because they believe (correctly, I think) that they are in an ultimate F3 with Natalie, anyway, so as long as her move didn't jeopardize them, I don't think they care one way or the other. Especially when Natalie explains to them how Keith is more valuable at keeping Jon from winning back-to-back immunities.

I still think Natalie could pull out a win based on this strategy. Except for blood loyalties (i.e. loved ones on the jury), it's likely that any non-bitter jury members would feel compelled to reward her with the win for her gameplay, considering she's the only one left who has any gameplay.

 

All of this. Natalie if she so chooses, can plead a number of things (although feigning ignorance may be the preferred one) to explain Keith over Alec. That said I think she shouldn't have rocked the boat. There are no Immunity Monsters in this game right now (heck, Baylor has won immunity), there will be other chances to blindside Jon if she doesn't panic.

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Reed and Natalie are great players, I'm totally rooting for Nat. I love her! If she makes finals her jury speech will be well thought out and convincing. Jon and Jacqueline are getting too much camera time. A couple times I wondered if the argument was fake. His fake tears really turned me off, what a cad choosing survivor if his Dad is really dying. Is it possible Missy cries because bad news comes to Jon?

Jacqueline better find a dermatologist now to watch her for signs of malignant melanoma. She is taking ridiculous chances with the sun.

Go Natalie! She definitely deserves The people's choice. Remember to vote for her.

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But I hate when others feel entitled to comment aloud on anyone's parenting style.

 

 

He didn't comment on her parenting style though. He addressed Baylor and told her she was a brat. Missy felt the need to jump in and defend and Reed's response to her was "sorry girl, your kid's a brat." He didn't say, "look you raised a brat, this is your fault." He was simply saying that he gets she's Baylor's mom and will of course defend her but the truth is, her kid's a brat. No one was calling out Missy's parenting at that point, Missy was simply reacting to the slightest criticism of her daughter because in her eyes her kid is perfect.

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For me Natalie deserves to win and anything other than a Natalie win is a disappointment for me (not to mention the entire season has been a disappointment) whether you like her or not she has been on her own for the majority of this game I mean her sister Nadiya was the first one voted out and Natalie has made it all the way to the final 6 without a loved one all on her own that defines the definition of being a Survivor if you ask me. I havent always agreed with her game moves nor understood them but hey she is still in the game and still has an idol. Im team Natalie all the way at this point.

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While the conventional wisdom dictates that you go after your target's #1 if your target isn't available, I'm not sure that conventional wisdom applied here, and I think Natalie got it right. Having Jon around pissed off about Jaclyn's ouster is way more dangerous than Jaclyn around pissed off about Jon's ouster. Jon has a relationship with Missy; Missy has alienated Jaclyn. Keith and Alec have shown signs of being more willing to work with men than women (Alec's flirt-fest this week notwithstanding). And I think Natalie has always preferred to have more women in the tribe when possible, so trading a male target for a female target is not equivalent to her. Throw in the fact that Alec was making personal inroads with both Jaclyn and Baylor, and having him gone has additional, unique benefit to Natalie.

 

This has been a fox-hunting season, with the occasional bunny getting caught in the cross-hairs, and I, for one, love it. The alliances have been somewhat fluid, with players recognizing a combination of the long game as well as the fact that the long game is irrelevant if you're not here tomorrow, and willing to make adjustments to remove people that are a threat to one's individual game.

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The preview shows Baylor falling and knocking her face very hard and Missy in tears.  Broken nose?  Teeth knocked out?  Or nothing?  

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He didn't comment on her parenting style though. He addressed Baylor and told her she was a brat. Missy felt the need to jump in and defend and Reed's response to her was "sorry girl, your kid's a brat." He didn't say, "look you raised a brat, this is your fault." He was simply saying that he gets she's Baylor's mom and will of course defend her but the truth is, her kid's a brat. No one was calling out Missy's parenting at that point, Missy was simply reacting to the slightest criticism of her daughter because in her eyes her kid is perfect.

 

Exactly, Reed never questioned Missy's parenting style. Baylor made a snarky comment towards Reed and he fired back that she's a brat. Missy acted like Reed was calling Baylor a slut or something cause Baylor could have kept her comment to herself. If Baylor can dish it out then she damn sure better be able to take it. Being called a brat isn't a result of poor parenting cause everyone has a moment or two in their life when they acted like a brat and it's nothing to do with how parent raised you.

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Such a good night last night!

 

Jon bugs and must go and then Jac.  Jaclyn is just so needy.

 

I am loving Natalie!  I liked how Baylor said her mom always does this with men and it never works out, concerning Jon.  Now hear me out.  I think Baylor will be glad her mom is gone next week because she could be thinking - "If mom wins she will just fall for some schmuck and he will spend out the winnings and be gone.  If I win I get to keep the money myself and help out her sorry ass when necessary".  I do want Natalie to win but Baylor can come in second and Keith third.

 

I was glad to see that Missy voted out Alec and went against the Jon directive.  I saw Jon/Jaclyn as being at the bottom of either alliance and they just don't know it.  How stupid of Jon to tell pretty much everyone he found an idol.

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Also, did Natalie sneak tweezers onto the island? I'm mesmerized by her perfect eyebrows whenever she's on-screen.

Looks like she threads.  Threading is better because you can get a more precise shape, and you can go significantly longer between threads since it gets every single hair, even the tiny ones.  More importantly, you can find thread anywhere.  I still don't understand why waxing is more popular in the states when threading is infinitely better.  

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I didn't really understand what even provoked the brat comment.  Jeff made a comment about people not liking Missy or something, Reed piped up with "I like Missy."  Baylor said, "You like everybody."  Reed said, "So I'm a people person.  You're a brat.  You're acting like a brat."  

 

Is "you like everybody" an insult?  He agreed that he likes everyone!  

 

I think Reed didn't like the way she said it. Baylor never said that she was joking after Reed called her a brat. Reed and Baylor were never close. Baylor and Josh were at one point, but don't think Reed and Baylor never conspired together. I guess someone you're not close to make a remark, you might take it the wrong way. Whether Reed took it the wrong way or not, I will pick Reed over Baylor any day of the week.

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A request to whomever is in charge of what goes on the main Previously TV page or to whomever chooses the titles for the recaps (Trip Payne?) - please do not post titles like  "Two Men Out"  that are somewhat spoilers - at some point(s) Missy was a possibility of being voted out.  If I hadn't already seen the episodes, knowing that it was guys who were gone would have made watching the shows even more boring than they were.  Other that the title (being posted on the main page), the recap was great, as usual.

 

There isn't much "alone" time on the island to strategize with your alliance mates, or at least there shouldn't be.  so Jon should have taken the opportunity to talk to Jac when he could.  But I find her behavior afterward to be ridiculous - I think it is so important to our game to discuss things with you that I am not going to talk to you anymore.  Then she gets a huffy that Jon is talking to Missy and not her, but in the next scene Jon approaches Jac and she still refuses to talk to him - refuses to talk to him because she is mad that he talked to someone else? Aargh!

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his insane wine swirling

 

I was wondering if his dad really taught him that, or if he got it from Sideways. He  didn't come across like Miles, but more like Jack, if Jack was trying to impress a girl by acting like Miles.

Edited by BigRedCheese

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All of this. Natalie if she so chooses, can plead a number of things (although feigning ignorance may be the preferred one) to explain Keith over Alec. That said I think she shouldn't have rocked the boat. There are no Immunity Monsters in this game right now (heck, Baylor has won immunity), there will be other chances to blindside Jon if she doesn't panic.

 

 

I agree that Natalie shouldn't have rocked the boat.  At this point in the game, the paranoia level is at 11.  So I wouldn't count on being able to talk my way out of why I didn't follow J&J's plan.  

 

If Natalie voted Keith out, thus not raising any suspicion with J&J, J&J would assume that N/M/B were still on board for getting rid of Alec next week.  But they could've defected then and threw their 3 votes at Jon (or Jaclyn, depending on the Immunity Challenge) and knock them out.  J&J would've cast their 2 votes for Alec, and Alec's vote wouldn't matter much.

 

And the real power play, if Natalie and Baylor were worried that Missy would never turn on J or J, would've been to keep her out of the loop and let her vote along with J&J against Alec.  Then secretly give Alec the HII in exchange for his agreement to vote against J or J.  That way, even though it would be a 3-3 tie, J or J would go home and the only risk M/B/N would run is Alec winning F4 Immunity (and he hasn't exactly been crushing the Immunity Challenges).

 

I didn't really understand what even provoked the brat comment.  Jeff made a comment about people not liking Missy or something, Reed piped up with "I like Missy."  Baylor said, "You like everybody."  Reed said, "So I'm a people person.  You're a brat.  You're acting like a brat." 

Is "you like everybody" an insult?  He agreed that he likes everyone! 

I think Reed didn't like the way she said it. Baylor never said that she was joking after Reed called her a brat.

 

 

 

I feel like Probst has turned the pot-stirring up to 11 this season.  Reed and Baylor allowed themselves to fall into that trap, and the Missy got involved as well.  

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Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how Baylor is bratty? I think she's a little young, and all, but I'm not getting this 'bratty' vibe. (I think honestly, she's milking her mom and using her as a shield, so it allows her to be a bit more... aggressive? maybe not the right word), and then her mom  gets defensive. She's using her mom's faults, as part of her game play and I think that's very smart. in my opinion. 

 

I am hoping that Natalie can do what Sandra did in HvV. Sandra wanted to blow up Russell, until she realised it would be the best to blow him up at tribal.. Natalie does have alot of yarn to spin and as easy as Jon/Jaclyn can argue "well we're always the swing vote"....that doesn't mean they "ran the game'  Natalie could easily spin it as 'she manipulated the situation to always make JJ feel comfortable, but they never made moves. they just sat in "well, let's see which way we want to swing." which isn't game play, it's just more of 'choose your own adventure." 

 

i'm working through my head if they should have split up Jaclyn/Jon or Baylor/missy this week but i really don't think that was the right move 

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He didn't say he liked Missy, he said he liked Jaclyn. The argument started after Probst mentioned that Jaclyn would be going back to camp with three people who disliked her while Missy, Baylor and Natalie enjoyed their reward. Reed then said that he liked Jaclyn just fine, which is when Baylor said, "well you like everyone" (which I guess he interpreted as sarcasm from her) and he responded "I'm a people person. You are a brat..."

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Did anyone else see any sign that Missy flipped off Reed?  I didn't, but it's not still on my DVR so I can't recheck.

 

It was just before Probst went into his "I got nothing for you" speech to the losers. If you weren't watching Missy in the distance you may miss it, just enough finger was raised to get the blur effect applied.

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They should all just throw the game right now and collectively decide who gets a million dollars.

 

 

Heh.  I can imagine Jeff doing at tribal council what he did with the last reward challenge, with his whole, "why are we even bothering with this" attitude.  I'd almost wish for it, if not for the fact that Missy would probably end up with the money as another pity reward.

 

 

Keith and Alec have shown signs of being more willing to work with men than women

 

 

They have, but they seem to consider Nat an honorary "guy", and Keith was talking about how the smart play would be to get rid of Jon.   And since neither Keith nor Alec have played much of a strategic game, I think if Nat and Baylor had voted out Jaclyn this week, there would have been a good chance they could get K and A to join their side rather than causing a tie. Also, Jaclyn is the half of J/J that can read people well, and without her Jon would only have Missy's questionable advice to rely on (even assuming she would side with him over Baylor).  

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I think Reed didn't like the way she said it. Baylor never said that she was joking after Reed called her a brat.

I think it is always the way she said it you could picture the proverbial tongue sticking out

"well, you like everybody - pffffffffffffffffffft"

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Keith has been playing strategically in his mind, but for the most part he plays foolishly by opening his mouth to speak, which is his downfall. I never understand why during TC when Probst is asking them questions, they basically almost give away on what they're doing and not trying to be as vague as possible, or lie, or something. Keith's mouth can get him in trouble if he doesn't know how to speak, like the saying goes, "Keep it cute or put it on mute."

 

I think a great moment during TC was last season when Spencer and a few people wanted someone out and during TC they found out the person they wanted out had an idol or something, Spencer quickly said Plan B and the person they wanted out for Plan B got eliminated, I can't remember who it was though.

 

If Jon thinks that sad story is going to get him votes then he's even more dim than what's already on screen. If he or Jaclyn make it to final 2, they would be like the Woo of last season. Woo thought being a stand up guy by going against Tony would secure him the win but it didn't because Tony was the manipulator and strategic player just like Tyson. Sad stories or being a stand up guy doesn't get you the win on Survivor, playing the game gets you the win. 

 

You can say that your wife had her leg eaten by an alligator and got ran over by a scooter, it's not gonna get you the win. Jon now is being so comfortable on where he stands is now opting to sleep with Jaclyn while Natalie, Keith, and Alec get wood to keep fire going doesn't look good for him. Any little thing at this point can get you sent home. Also being a swing voter doesn't get you the win, he's lucky to have made it this far being a swing voter, cause swing voters usually don't last long. So that's another thing working against Jon & Jaclyn.

 

If Natalie or Keith make it to final 2, they're pretty much guaranteed the win, because they're the only ones playing the game. Jon & Jaclyn stay stuck in the middle, Baylor is just lazy and not doing anything, and Missy is just an enabler and up Jon's ass.

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Forgot to mention this earlier, but why are all these Survivors having multiple orgasms when Probst announces the food rewards?  Jon's eye rolling "O" face is a) ridiculous & b) completely out of place since he just ate 2 days ago!  In fact, they all have eaten more in 30 days than the entire casts of Seasons 1-5 put together.  I don't want these idiots to starve, but what happened to hunting and gathering?  Fishing?  These people are so frickin' lazy (as a whole)! They'd rather lay around and wait til Probst walks on set with Pizza Hut boxes vs. scoping out the jungle for fruit, nuts etc.  There must be food available out there!  The howler monkeys have to be eating something, right?  Or do they just loll about in the trees too until craft services rolls up in the Korean Taco truck?

 

And as for the laziness factor - Jon & Jaclyn sleeping all day is infuriating.  It can't be lack of protein because they've had more food than some of the others. They act as if they are on a Club Med vaca. Gather wood, get water, do yoga, swim a mile...do something to warrant your complete energy depletion.

 

When is the expiration date on HII?  Wish they'd eliminate the multiple HII's. I have never liked that HII's are replaced if used. I'd like to see one on each tribe at the start with a few clues.  After merge, have ONE additional HII and any unused, old tribe ones found are null & void from there.  If the post merge HII found, gotta use it before Final 5.  No more after that.  And for God sake...make them a little tougher to find OK?  Enough of "look for wackiest & most obvious tree/rock pile/cave and voila!"  And everyone can have a GoPro camera at this point.  Strap one on each contestant and have them record themselves looking for the stupid HII instead of the film crew dropping "cold.  warm...Warmer! Hot!! RED HOT!!!!" hints with their camera angles.

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I was glad to see that Missy voted out Alec and went against the Jon directive.  I saw Jon/Jaclyn as being at the bottom of either alliance and they just don't know it.  How stupid of Jon to tell pretty much everyone he found an idol.

Maybe I misunderstood, but I didn't think Missy went against anything. My understanding of the pre-TC vote discussion was the Five were going to split their votes - three (Jon/Jaclyn/Natalie) for Keith and two (Missy/Baylor) for Alec. This was Jon's idea, in case Keith or Alec had an idol between them (keep in mind he and Jaclyn are the only two out of the Five who don't know Natalie has the last remaining pre-Merge individual Tribe HII). Rather than tell Jon she had an idol, Natalie chose to go along with Jon's plan. This also put Natalie in a swing vote position - a position she successfully exploited at TC.

So - Natalie successfully blindsided J&J's get-Keith-out strategy; in the process, however, Natalie also blindsided Missy's expectations on the vote. This, I think, may result in the bigger blowback to Natalie's plans. If Missy interprets this as mistrust on Natalie's part, I could easily see J&J pulling Missy into a one-time alliance with Keith to get rid of Natalie. I already have a sneaky suspicion Missy may be distrustful of Natalie (or ANYBODY besides Missy, for that matter) having such a close relationship with Baylor. I expect Missy is already somewhat wary of Natalie's hold on Baylor being so strong Natalie could keep Baylor from divulging "their" idol's existence to her mother - until Natalie saw fit to divulge, that is....

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I think a great moment during TC was last season when Spencer and a few people wanted someone out and during TC they found out the person they wanted out had an idol or something, Spencer quickly said Plan B and the person they wanted out for Plan B got eliminated, I can't remember who it was though.

 

 

Actually that was when Kass flipped and Sarah got eliminated so who they wanted out did not work but it was a great plan. What happened was they put enough comments out to make it clear they were likely gunning for Tony and it got revealed Tony had an idol which they'd already suspected anyway. At that point they mentioned Plan B which Tony assumed meant that boring guy whose name escapes me right now.

 

Except Spencer and company were two steps ahead and knew that's exactly what they would think and so when Tony played his idol for the guy and he played his idol for Tony, Spencer and company actually voted for Jefra who no one was paying attention to. Had it not been for Kass' flip, they would have flushed out two idols and gotten rid of one member of the alliance and weakened their numbers. 

 

When is the expiration date on HII?

 

 

It's always been the Final 5 tribal council because once they went to a three person finale, Final 4 is the last immunity challenge. However even last season when they had a Final 2, the Final 5 tribal council was still the last time the players could play it so both Jon and Natalie are on very borrowed time to use theirs to make any kind of move. 

 

This is why again I wonder about Natalie's strategy. While I get why she felt Reed was more important to get out first over Jon, when the moment to get rid of Jon presented itself, she should have just gone with it. Because waiting a week allowed him to get another idol and win immunity and now her time may be running out to get rid of him. 

Edited by truthaboutluv
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Regarding Missy and Baylor: I think Missy's motivation for protecting Baylor is guilt. My guess is that she feels guilty about how her bad relationship may have hurt Baylor, so she feels she has to make up for it by always defending Baylor. Maybe she feels she is "making up" for not protecting Baylor from consequences of past bad decisions.  (All guesswork on my part)

 

I want Natalie to win, so this is what I think she should do (of course any "doing" is already done):

Next week: Get Jon out but fool him into thinking the vote is for Jaclyn so he plays the idol on Jaclyn's behalf.  Natalie conspires w/Baylor on this plan. Baylor tells Missy that the plan is to vote out Jaclyn, but they don't tell her the real plan since Missy likes Jon. So Missy will vote for Jaclyn. Natalie tells Keith they are splitting vote between Jon and Jaclyn and that he should vote for Jon.  Keith will probably be OK with this. Then at tribal Natalie and Baylor can blab about how they think Jaclyn is a big threat, etc. The point is to make Jon believe Jaclyn is in danger so that he gives the idol to her, then he gets voted out. Natalie, Baylor and Keith's votes should accomplish. Missy votes for Jaclyn and Jon & Jaclyn vote for whoever they feel like, probably Keith. 

The following week Jaclyn goes. Jon and Jaclyn will be mad at Natalie anyway and she will more likely have Keith's jury vote if Jaclyn is out before him.

The week after Keith goes.

Final three: Missy, Baylor and Natalie. Natalie wins. I think she could get every jury vote except for Jon & Jaclyn.

ETA: Of course immunity can change everything.

Edited by Lamb18

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Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how Baylor is bratty? I think she's a little young, and all, but I'm not getting this 'bratty' vibe.

 

 

I agree.  To me, in the context of Survivor, "bratty" denotes loafing off around camp and expected to be waited on hand and foot.  I haven't seen that from Baylor.  If she's been that way, and they haven't shown it, I think that's a telling editorial decision.  Because we have seen that sort of conduct from several other players.

 

I wonder if Reed et al aren't using "brat" as a euphemism for another "b" word?

 

I've watched that scene three times now and Reed looks a lot more childish in it than Baylor to me.  His face is so smug and judgmental.  He seemed very comfortable in the role at the time and then sorry later he showed that side of himself to the camera.

 

 

 

Yes.  To me, Reed tried to play the game of saying something offensive and then trying to insulate himself with a "I'm just keeping it real" defense.

 

I never understand why during TC when Probst is asking them questions, they basically almost give away on what they're doing and not trying to be as vague as possible, or lie, or something.

 

 

 

I still think the classic answer, which came from a player I otherwise didn't like, was "Jeff, I can't tell you.  The Game is Afoot!"

 

If Jon thinks that sad story is going to get him votes then he's even more dim than what's already on screen.

 

 

I thought Jon and Reed both made potentially fatal FTC screw-ups last night (although with Reed it no longer matters).  Reed talked about how many horses his family has, and Jon talked about wine-tasting.  For good or bad, the finalists' perceived financial need/situation can be a factor in whom jurors vote to give the $1 Million.  It goes back to the fact that jurors want to cast votes that make them feel good about themselves not winning.  

 

And while neither of the things Reed or Jon mentioned necessarily mean they come from money, I think they're the sort of thing that some people might associate with coming from money.

This is why again I wonder about Natalie's strategy. While I get why she felt Reed was more important to get out first over Jon, when they moment to get rid of Jon presented itself, she should have just gone with it. Because waiting a week allowed him to get another idol and win immunity and now her time may be running out to get rid of him.

 

 

True.  

 

Or, maybe, try not to send Jon to the HII-storage-room Exile Island.

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These people are the worst.

 

Those of you who've been arguing that Jaclyn is an entitled princess who demands that everyone kiss her ass at all times can now feel a hearty sense of vindication. While I could see her logic in not wanting to be in an alliance with the guys who considered her nothing more than Jon's second vote, she was ridiculous last night in wanting to flip back to them now just because Missy didn't pick her for the reward. Worse, she seemed to blame Baylor and Natalie for not saying, "oh no, take Jaclyn instead," claiming that the three of them were being disrespectful to her. Only someone who thinks she should always get her way could classify not getting to go on a second (or is it third?) unearned reward as disrespectful. She was also being an ass about Jon, claiming he snapped at her, when really all he did was whine a little. She drags him off to tell him the totally shocking news that Reed, Keith, and Alec want to work with them instead of getting voted out, he whimpers that he already knows that, and she acts like he slept with her sister. Yeah, that's going to be a real happy marriage.

 

At the same time, Jon is a douche. I didn't think he could embarrass himself more than he did with the speech about not giving Natalie credit for his awesome game move of listening to Natalie but then I saw him drink wine. Yes, sommeliers swirl wine around in their glasses and swish it in their mouths when they're tasting or judging it, but when they're having a glass with dinner, they drink like normal people.

 

Missy and Baylor are maybe the first women on this show to be led around by their vaginas, what with Missy who flipped on her alliance with Jeremy and Natalie in favor of her son/boyfriend Jon, and Baylor who wanted to keep her brother/boyfriend Alec in the game because he faked her out by being nice to her for five minutes. I should feel sorry for them, but I hate them too much.

 

Keith is fodder, but his dumbness has come all the way back around to entertaining.

 

Which leaves Natalie, who I now adore. Life is strange.

 

 

Jon realizes nothing.

 

Jaclyn can go shit in the ocean

 

I would like to eat spaghetti and chicken parm in a king-sized bed with you both.

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I have a very different view of Reed than most people here. He's good looking and articulate and plays the game well, but he's not a nice person. I realize it's frustrating tpeople who are not good players, but he can be smug and condescending and a sore loser, which he was here.

 

On the other hand, I apparently think more of his communication skills than most of the Reed fans do. I don't think he wastes a word when he wants to push someone's buttons, which he seems to enjoy doing.

I didn't really understand what even provoked the brat comment.  Jeff made a comment about people not liking Missy or something, Reed piped up with "I like Missy."  Baylor said, "You like everybody."  Reed said, "So I'm a people person.  You're a brat.  You're acting like a brat."  

 

Is "you like everybody" an insult?  He agreed that he likes everyone!  

Probst actually said that Jaclyn would be stranded with three people who didn't like her very much. Then Reed piped up, "We like her a lot!" and Missy replies with "I'm sure you do." and Baylor replies with "You like everybody, Reed."

I think the implication of Missy and Baylor's remarks taken together is that he's a phony. Which, in the context of the game at least, is perfectly accurate. These are the same guys who almost ignored Jaclyn to death before, now he's talking about how much they all like her?

I think Reed didn't like the way she said it.

Phonies don't like being called phonies.

 

Now Reed's rejoinder is overtly directed at Baylor, but by  using the term "brat" it is a shot at her mother too. Then we get Reed addressing an older woman as "Girl"  and using the old "If you're acting like a brat, I'm going to tell you you're being a brat right now" i.e., I'm just being honest, actually, I'm doing you a favor, you should be thanking me for insulting you. Hate that  BS.

 

Lastly, it was Missy who called a halt to it, saying it was pointless. Reed would have been happy to have gone on all day; he was enjoying himself.

 

In fact, Reed's remark when about to lose the reward challenge "It's all right, my family has twelve [horses]" was brattiest remark I heard in the episode.

 

One strategic remark. Missy should have left her sure vote, Baylor behind. It would have sucked for Baylor, but that's the game.  Missy's weakness is that she sees Baylor as an extension of herself, rather than as an ally who can work toward the same goal in a complementary way.

Edited by Latverian Diplomat
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The word "brat" refers to someone who behaves badly, with a strong connotation of childishness/immaturity and self-centeredness.  So what we're really saying is, "you're acting like a child."   Given that, here is a list of people exhibiting bratty behavior from these 2 episodes alone:

 

Baylor

Missy

Reed

Jon

Jaclyn

 

ETA:  Now that I think about it, Baylor was maybe the least bratty among this august list.

Edited by Special K
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Jon and Jac are so honored and thrilled to be the deciding vote, in the middle so to speak. But, I think it began to occur to Jac they are at the bottom of the two alliances the are swing voting for. Jon is just too dense to get it. Jac was right though, they can't trust Nat for sure. Do they have room to talk though, they turned on Jeremy in a flash.

Jon could have been done last week is another irony. And he refused to credit Nat. What a douche!

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Reed's exit interview with Gordon Holmes:

 

I'm not impressed with Reed's rationale for calling Baylor a brat. What does her age have to do with any of this nonsense?

 

I actually like Baylor, and am disheartened by the hate that her fellow Survivors seem to have for her. It's not as if there is a consistently clear rivalry with any one person(unlike RC vs. Abi-Maria), so I'm not even sure it's editing that makes me like her more than most.

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Or, maybe, try not to send Jon to the HII-storage-room Exile Island.

Tee hee!

 

Missy, you are a brat and your daughter is a brat.  And when I call you a brat, Missy, I am not referring to your unknown mother's unknown parenting style.  I mean that you are an annoying, spoiled, and self-absorbed person.

 

Yes, Missy did flip Reed off at tribal.

 

It was hilarious watching Baylor making eyes at Alec even though she knew he was trying to play her.  Like mother, like daughter.

 

Reed has never had such a scary and exciting experience as being on Survivor.  Huh.  Because I would think that being Spiderman in a production plagued by horrific accidents might have been as scary, and starring on Broadway might have been as exciting.  But what do I know.

 

 

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Baylor tells Missy that the plan is to vote out Jaclyn, but they don't tell her the real plan since Missy likes Jon. So Missy will vote for Jaclyn.

From Missy's perspective, I see several flaws with this strategy:

  • It goes against the "everybody else before starting in on our own alliance" strategy - not necessarily a biggie, but it could become one if Missy (not incorrectly) assumes a level of mistrust within the alliance.
  • It weakens a player with strong loyalty to her personally (Jon).
  • As was so aptly demonstrated at last TC, voting blindly based on the word of another could open the door to another blindside - so she'd probably want to do some more talking with her other alliance members to confirm.
  • Lastly, and possibly most importantly - getting rid of either Jon OR Jacklyn would put an approximately barn-sized target on both Missy's and Baylor's backs. Why? Because M&B would then be the Last Couple Standing, which is a ready-made, guilt-free reason for an eviction vote. So long as J&J stay in the game together, that target remains relatively diffuse.

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Missy is a helicopter parent, isn't she? She jumps all over Keith for his comments about Baylor's work ethic and then Reed for calling her a brat. Let Baylor fight her own battles and stop flittering about protecting her.

 

Based on the fact that Missy has four or five divorces under her belt, and Baylor is most likely from her first marriage, I have a feeling that’s just a force of habit.

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I rewatched the scene and there's no evidence that Missy flipped him off, and I think if she had we all would've seen it because they would've edited it so it was clear.

 

 

Look at Missy's right side as she is leaving the area with the girls to go for the horseback ride and the food.  Her right side is all fuzzed out, as if she is giving the finger as she is walking away.  Her back is towards the tribe and Probst.  She is behind Probst, and exiting the area.    I wasn't watching it alone, and I wasn't the first one to see it.  I did notice it when I rewound it.  

Edited by icemiser69

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At the same time, Jon is a douche. I didn't think he could embarrass himself more than he did with the speech about not giving Natalie credit for his awesome game move of listening to Natalie but then I saw him drink wine. Yes, sommeliers swirl wine around in their glasses and swish it in their mouths when they're tasting or judging it, but when they're having a glass with dinner, they drink like normal people.

 

Which leaves Natalie, who I now adore. Life is strange.

 

I also came around on Natalie after starting the season with a negative perception of the twinnies.  Part of what I've been enjoying are her over-the-top confessionals - in this episode, something about wanting to kill herself (or Jon) if she had to listen to him talk about wine again.  I also admire that she is able to abide by the wisdom of keeping your enemies closer, unlike Missy.  She has shown a lot more social awareness of the game out of everyone left.  Although I also think Jaclyn, when she isn't throwing a tantrum, is decently perceptive about people also - picking up on how she and Jon are probably down on the totem pole of their alliance and how things felt off at camp after Natalie talked to Baylor about voting out Jon next.  I think people who truly excel at this game would take a Jaclyn into account when they choose who to go to rewards with and to be able to act normally when they're about to stab someone in the back.  

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If there is anything I hate more in Survivor than Boston Rob, it is the "my father/mother is dying" angle. I don't want to judge what choices someone makes in these situations, but I hate that this sort of thing can become a determining factor in the jury's vote. I want to watch how someone plays for the 39 days, not listen to some factor outside the game being brought into the game.

 

Jon and Jaclyn's tru wuv is barf bag city for me.  I am hoping these two get bounced along with Missy.  This season is not very interesting and I am not invested in anyone this go around.  Natalie is the best of a boring lot; I like a good revenge setup when it works out and in this case, I hope it does!

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The preview shows Baylor falling and knocking her face very hard and Missy in tears.  Broken nose?  Teeth knocked out?  Or nothing?  

 

It actually showed Missy herself falling and knocking her face hard, but then in the scene where she's crying it kinda looks like she's holding her knee. 

 

I do want Natalie to win but Baylor can come in second and Keith third.

 

I hope this is how it shakes out. I also wouldn't mind Jaclyn in third if only for an all female F3 and because even though I've grown more annoyed by Jaclyn recently, she's still my 3rd favorite.

 

Regarding Missy and Baylor: I think Missy's motivation for protecting Baylor is guilt. My guess is that she feels guilty about how her bad relationship may have hurt Baylor, so she feels she has to make up for it by always defending Baylor. Maybe she feels she is "making up" for not protecting Baylor from consequences of past bad decisions.  (All guesswork on my part)

 

I feel this way as well. And I also think Baylor uses her mom's guilt to manipulate her. They have a very fascinating relationship, IMO.

 

Missy and Baylor are maybe the first women on this show to be led around by their vaginas, what with Missy who flipped on her alliance with Jeremy and Natalie in favor of her son/boyfriend Jon, and Baylor who wanted to keep her brother/boyfriend Alec in the game because he faked her out by being nice to her for five minutes.

 

It's kinda disturbing to me that Missy seems to have a weird son/boyfriend relationship with Jon and we had Baylor literally say Alec was like her 'brother slash boyfriend.' Those two have some big issues.

 

Not that what people refer to as 'helicopter parenting' is part of that.  I'm a proud, heavily-involved parent and people who don't like it can kiss my ass, so I suppose who am I to judge her gestures?  lol

 

My mom was/is also what some would probably refer to as a 'helicopter parent,' and she's pretty damn great, so I too can't really judge Missy on that alone.

 

ETA: Latverian Diplomat, I completely agree with you on Reed.

Edited by peachmangosteen
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I actually think Missy is pretty un-coddling, if she could even go through this with a kid. I couldn't.  I wouldn't want to subject my kid (even at 20) to the conditions out there.  Though if either of us was outdoorsy, maybe I'd feel differently.  

 

I think all mothers are protective but as a single mom with one daughter, I think that might be one of the closest dynamics.  I think all parents feel guilt about parenting, too, because that's just part of the experience.  

 

I don't hover like some parents-- where they can't watch their kid participate in an event without 'coaching' or they want to check their homework, pick their college major, approve their dates, read their texts, check their browser history, pick their clothes, etc.  I don't see Missy like that, just protective.  I think that's just in mom DNA.  But I wonder if they struggle financially and that's part of the marriages history and her seeming a little rough around the edges and ready to attack.  

 

There was one confessional of Baylor where she had the Buff off her head and her hair loose and she looked gorgeous.  Her cry face is pretty bad, though.

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At that point they mentioned Plan B which Tony assumed meant that boring guy whose name escapes me right now.

L.J., and THANK YOU, @truthaboutluv, for calling him that.  I thought I was the only one who'd thought of him that way.  Back at TWoP, EVERYONE praised and slobbered all over him, when I thought he was just plain boring and did only one thing that was really any good when he found the Beauties' idol.  But other than that, he was BORING.  Everyone was so sure he'd win, I laughed so hard at everyone there when he was blindsided.

 

Getting back to this season, though, I loved the pure exposure of Jon and Jaclyn's both separate and joint entitlement issues.  Definitely can't see them winning with the editing showing those moments.

 

Natalie FTW!  Wouldn't mind Baylor, either.

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While the conventional wisdom dictates that you go after your target's #1 if your target isn't available, I'm not sure that conventional wisdom applied here, and I think Natalie got it right. Having Jon around pissed off about Jaclyn's ouster is way more dangerous than Jaclyn around pissed off about Jon's ouster. Jon has a relationship with Missy; Missy has alienated Jaclyn. Keith and Alec have shown signs of being more willing to work with men than women (Alec's flirt-fest this week notwithstanding). And I think Natalie has always preferred to have more women in the tribe when possible, so trading a male target for a female target is not equivalent to her. Throw in the fact that Alec was making personal inroads with both Jaclyn and Baylor, and having him gone has additional, unique benefit to Natalie.

 

This has been a fox-hunting season, with the occasional bunny getting caught in the cross-hairs, and I, for one, love it. The alliances have been somewhat fluid, with players recognizing a combination of the long game as well as the fact that the long game is irrelevant if you're not here tomorrow, and willing to make adjustments to remove people that are a threat to one's individual game.

 

I agree with you that the fluid alliances are more interesting in midgame than a dominant alliance Pagonging a minority one.  But while I see your point about taking on Jaclyn, that still seems like the best of bad options.  I fail to see how tipping Jon off to her disloyalty, while still reducing the numbers she could bring to bear against him next week, made any sense for her.  If she didn't want to move on Jaclyn (and I still think she probably should have), why not just stand pat and not make waves at all?

 

The rest of this comment is the notes I took as I watched:

So foolish of Reed to brag petulantly about his family's twelve horses.

 

Probst was pissed and persnickety about the thrown challenge.

 

I'm trying to remember: who was in the group that foolishly alienated Jaclyn previously when she and her beau were swing votes? I think it was a different group of people than the ones doing it now, but either way it's amazing that people fail to learn that lesson.  And if Missy, Baylor, and Natalie really are a tight three, how are they unaware of the Survivor 101 principle that you not only need to be solicitous towards the more peripheral members of your alliance, but you also need to leave someone from your tight three behind to run interference? I'm tempted to find a GIF of Mr. Gold from The Good Wife grumbling about "amateurs".  (I guess to be fair it wasn't Natalie's fault, and she did say something about it at the reward.)

 

For that matter, how about sending one of the tight three to Exile in search of an idol.

 

We've talked so much about how the loved ones dynamic can affect the game, but always with the assumption that couples will operate as a unit.  But I've been married for over ten years total between my ex- and current wife, so it should have occurred to me before now that if you put a couple in a stressful sitch for weeks on end, they are likely to blow up at each other at some point.

 

LOL at Baylor, pretending like she's trying to keep Alec around for strategic reasons.

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You know what kills me about this whole thing? The game was RIGHT THERE for Jon to take, and he missed it because he's a moron. Vote out Reed, and then flip over with Alec and Keith. Jaclyn isn't going to turn on him. Use the 4-3 to get rid of the rest of the tribe, while using Jaclyn (and vice versa) to protect himself with the idol for the next two votes. Get it down to the T4, and take either Keith (who looks like he's done nothing this whole game), or Alec (who looks like a moron) to F3 and hope to win it with a strong jury argument.

He can't possibly be missing the fact that if the plan proceeds as expected, we end up with Missy/Baylor as one twosome, and Jon/Jaclyn as the other twosome, which puts his entire game at the mercy of Natalie, who hasn't forgotten what happened to Jeremy. She gets to basically decide, outside of immunity wins, which twosome goes to the final, and she'll win easily if that happens.

Jon's only chance to win this thing was to flip and break up the Missy/Baylor thing, boot Natalie after that, and be in a position to take the remaining player he wants to take to F3 with him and Jaclyn over the next two tribals, because he can vote out whoever doesn't win immunity at F5, and if either him or Jaclyn doesn't win immunity at F4, he can present a unified voting block and threaten the immunity winner with the thought that they might be forced to draw rocks.

This whole game was there for the taking, and he threw it away.

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Couples have fights, that is a given.  I saw both sides of Jon and Jacklyn's tiff.  The silent treatment is maddening and it would serve her well to find some words when she needs to be by herself.  Other than that they each had an issue that the other refused to hear.  They will survive marry and adopt.  Ta da.  Now get him outta there, Natalie.  And Missy, shut up. 

Edited by wings707
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One other observation I have is about the Immunity Idols at Exile Island.  Maybe they're talking about that a lot and we aren't seeing it.  But it seems to me that, at this point, they should realize that sending someone to Exile Island is tantamount to handing them an Immunity Idol.  

 

I'm sad to say I think they are aware, but most of them are unwilling to suffer for an idol.  Jaclyn can't stand to go without attention or rewards.  Baylor can't stray far from Missy, because Missy does her chores and feeds her.  Missy needs her daughter or a man to dote on constantly. There's no way they would send Alec or Keith, and it's likely Alec wouldn't know there was an idol there, even with the obvious cameraman hints.  I think Natalie would do it in a flash, but she's trying to fly below the radar, and she possibly doesn't trust her alliance if she were gone.

 

If Missy had any strategic sense, when she won the first Reward Challenge she would've sent Natalie to Exile Island to get an Immunity Idol, and left Baylor back at camp (since she wouldn't have to worry about her defecting) and taken Jon and Jaclyn.

 

 

Missy wouldn't have thought of not taking her baby.  Baylor relies on that guilt.  After what Jon and Jaclyn did after others sacrificed a reward for them, I would make sure they never had another reward.  Other than Natalie, they're are the biggest people there - they're not even close to malnutrition.  Maybe they just don't burn calories since they seem to sleep constantly.

 

Jeremy.  Just sittin' over there lookin' so fine.

 

I'm disturbed each season by the fact that I prefer these guys starved and scruffy.  When I see them at finale I think - ugh, what happened.

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This season has been largely boring, but I'm all aboard Team Natalie. I've liked her from the beginning. I didn't hate the twins as much as many did on Amazing Race, though their "Twinnie" thing grated. Now that she's by herself, she's rocking it. She's practical, strategic, snarky and a good competitor.

 

I am, however, bummed she's aligned with Baylor, who I do not like. Hate Missy, too. Hated how she crowed about how smart her daughter was for finding an immunity idol, when it was all Nat's -- and it really IS all Nat's, and not Baylor's. But if it means Natalie goes to the end with them, it's probably a good thing, because I see her winning against either one or both. I was impressed by Baylor recognizing her mother's weakness toward men -- showed some mature insight there. As long as she doesn't go running back to Mommy and spilling the info Nat gave her.

 

Missy just annoys me to no end. I hated her ever since she didn't ration the rice, and acts like an overly protective Mama Bear toward her weird-looking daughter Baylor. I'm a mother of a grown child, and I let him stand on his own feet. If someone thought he was being a brat, he just has to deal with that. He did something to make them feel that way. Plus, adult!

 

Jon and Jackie...ugh, both of them can go as well. Keith is just too dumb to be on this show, after the way he exposed their plan last week. 

 

So, yeah, Nat for the win!

 

I hate this blood versus water thing. I hated the couple arguing. Hate all the schmoopy family stuff. The messages from home episodes have been the most boring every season, and this just puts some of that crap in every episode. Please, please Survivor, ditch this premise. Ditch hidden immunity idols which are FAR too easy to find, and ditch the crappy Exile Island -- it adds nothing except opportunities to find more immunity idols and pulls people out of the strategy talk, which is important stuff!

 

Awful season, saved only by Nat.

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