S05.E08: Coda

[natyxg]

Beth didn't stab her anywhere near the jugular. It was probably below the collar bone. It looks silly on rewatch seeing those petite pair of scissors sticking out of Dawns dark blue uniform even outside the collar. Heck it's probably firmly implanted in her bullet proof vest. Watch the scene again. After she shoots Beth, it is clear she is not injured at all by those scissors as she is begging for mercy.

 

It really, really does.

 

EverCat: I think Beth stabbed Dawn in the shoulder for some reason. Was she going for the heart? The neck? The jugular? I don't know. But it didn't do any real damage. As a reflex, Dawn fired her gun and it got beth right in the head. When she realized what she had done she realized she was done for, which is why she started begging for mercy.

[EverCat]

I do remember thinking that Dawn did not have her gun drawn, and that she was mouthing 'It wasn't me'. Maybe it will be clearer after rewatching.

Having Beth stab Dawn in the shoulder makes the whole thing even more nonsensical and written only to have the big shocker of a main character biting it.

I would have preferred having Beth still around instead of Noah. (and Noah instead of Abraham)

[Ellaria]

He was disturbed by the slaughter of the termites in his church.  He was looking for proof of what they were.  That's why he responded so strongly to Bob's leg.

  

I know that it was supposed to be a journey of realization for Fr. Gabriel but it was poorly executed. He saw Bob leave with the leg attached and he saw Bob return without said leg. What did he think happened in between? The scene of him agonizing over the maggoty leg was sort of silly, especially with a school full of zombies close by. The entire sequence seemed to be an excuse to bring a hoard down on the church.

 

I still do not get the point of the hospital arc. I get that they are trying to show other types of leadership and organization, but Dawn's characterization and even her self-rationalizations were all over the place. I think if her last articulation or example of leadership had been when she told Beth that she'd just killed that woman, it might have made some sense. That would have given Beth/we viewers a sense that she understood that power and authority can be subtle and difficult. Also, Beth might have learned that mouthing off isn't always the best way to get what you want.

Instead we got 30 minutes of Dawn's incoherent blah blah blah. What was the point?

Sometimes this show can do dialog so well -- like the episode with Carol, tyreese and Lizzie were there was as much unsaid but still communicated, and then there's this.

There was a little too much of Dawn blabbing in this supposedly tense episode. I had no idea who Hanson was so I wasn't moved by that dialogue. The hospital arc had too many characters with unexplained purpose. (Where did strawberry man come from?)

I never got fully invested in the storyline because it seemed fairly obvious that they weren't going to be around for long. The writers did a much better job of presenting the Termites as bad guys. They were scary, efficient and with an adequately explained backstory. Dawn and her minions were inserted into the show and we were supposed to understand that they were evil but conflicted. I didn't care enough to think twice about them.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Ellaria Sand

[BrendasChoppers]

You are not alone. I found myself oddly turned on by Rick the entire episode. I don't care how he smells or how itchy his beard is, I'd hit that.

 

Get in line. I called it first.

[natyxg]

Thoughts on the episode.

 

*I continue to hate the priest more and more. What was supposed to be the point of him seeing the leg and stuff? Did he not believe Bob, who came with his leg cut off? I thought it was a very contrived way to put him in the same position that he put his congregation: outside the church and begging for help. But who cares? I wanted him to get eaten for continuing to put people in danger thanks to his uselessness. And I didn't understand why this lame subplot took so much screentime in the mid season finale. Michonne is a badass though, and that's always nice to see.

 

*Having seen the entire episode I understand what Beth was going for when she stabbed Dawn. The Hansen history had repeated itself and Beth felt she had to kill Dawn. I actually liked their relationship in this episode. What I don't understand is why Beth didn't stab her in the neck. It seemed like a weird on set decision to stab her with those little scissors in the shoulder, since I don't think the script was supposed to be telling us that Beth hesitated and didn't go for the kill. Her entire arc was about hardening like the rest of the group, and she had killed that cop earlier, so...

 

*Holy shit, is Carol wolverine?!! The day before she was dying, but she literally walked out of the hospital.

 

*I didn't like that we didn't get a good Beth/Carol moment when Carol woke up. Actually, I thought there were quite a few "moments" I wish we had gotten, but didn't. I felt the reaction to Beth's death wasn't strong enough for me, specially in terms of the directing and the editing. I wanted close ups!

 

*Poor Maggie.

 

*Poor Beth. She was a cutie and I have a soft spot for cuties, so I was bummed out that she died. I was spoiled, so I was expecting it, but hoped it wasn't true.

I do remember thinking that Dawn did not have her gun drawn, and that she was mouthing 'It wasn't me'. Maybe it will be clearer after rewatching.

 

I think she says "I didn't mean it".

[Pestilentia]

Won't lie: favorite part was Rick killing Bob 2.0.  I just loved his "Christ, I am so over this!" attitude to the entire thing.  Again, Early Seasons Rick is clearly dead and buried.  He is so over this.

 

This is the Rick I want- over this crap and not taking it any more.

You get one chance.

 

 

Rick needs a catchphrase

 

Based on TD, I'd say its 'strike one and you're done.'

 

My vote is for a simple "Strike one."

 

"Shut up."

OK, a simple "Strike one."

Then BAM you're dead.

And the final flourish- "Shut up" to your corpse.

 

I just can't even with Tyreese any more.  Good for you that you haven't changed but you're a liar and a complete liability.

 

As I said last week, Tyrese is not dependable.

Lack of dependability is a dealbreaker.

Sorry but you are a useless LIAR who would put a helpless child in danger rather than own up to your inabilities.

 

I wasn't paying much attention, but why did Dawn kill Beth? Did Beth slap her and then Dawn shot her?

 

I really miss having to read the thread before posting in the thread.

[ohaifriendo]

I was really hoping this episode would redeem the pretty lackluster season after an awesome episode 1...sadly it did not turn out that way. They did a horrible job of showing us that Maggie was still concerned about Beth, and the hospital storyline was really weak in my opinion.

I also don't know what went wrong with Beth for me. Whether it was the writing, the direction, or Emily Kinney's dull, one-note performance, but I just could not get invested in her at all. I don't have the searring hatred that some others on this board have, but I think my opinion of her is worse: total indifference. When she was shot I experienced a little shock but nothing emotionally jarring.

The writers have shown they're capable of creating compelling female characters, so I don't know what went wrong here. I havent read the comics so I don't know how big her role is in them, but choosing her to hold up a storyline was a bad idea IMO.

[elizacat]

Well, then I must be a sap, because I cried like a baby at the end. I really did. It was so sad. But at least Carol was perfectly fine and I am happy that Orlando/Noah is going on with them. Really like him. Wish the Reverend would've have stuck back at the hospital - he would do better there. Don't know why he didn't.

 

Rick taking CopBob out in the beginning - god Rick, I love you to death. Also, I think the two cops killed - one by the zombie and the one pushed down the shaft were the rapey cops. I get the impression that things should be much better now in the hospital.

 

Dawn really made her own destiny. She could have left well alone and let Noah leave, but no - she had to push it one too far. Glad she's dead, sad to see Beth go.

 

Otherwise it was good, a bit shocking and like I said, sad, cause I cried. I have a feeling I might be the only one.

 

Yep i'm a sap too sobbed like a baby! Beth wasn't my favourite character to be honest I was pretty indifferent to her the majority of the time but she's been there a while now so she's become part of the family and its sad when one dies.

 

Something i've noticed that I think is a nice touch is each group they encounter have a different name for the Zombies. For Rick's group its Walkers, the Governors it was Biters and for Dawn's the Rotters yet no one calls them Zombies.

[kikismom]

Ok here is a ZA I need to know how this happens question. Just watched them shoveling a grave in the scenes to come. Where do these shovels come from?

They are the fruit of the rare Southern Shovel Tree (inexpicablis horticulturis plotdeviceii) , much the same as firearms and batteries grew in Rick's prison garden

 

 

I didn't like how we didn't get to see Carol wake up in the hospital. She just appeared in the wheelchair during the trade.

I know some people say we don't need to see everything, but when it's a cliff-hanger from a previous episode, they shouldn't write the next week's script like it doesn't even matter. Same with Daryl's "C'mon out",  followed the next week by people doing daytime fortifications in the church as if no big deal, Daryl came home without Carol who is injured and held captive by crazy gang and he brought a complete stranger and now we're going to war--again. ???? If it was a season to season time-jump I'd get it but we're talking about hours or even minutes. When Rick comes sprinting through the compound to start the show I had to figure out that he must have learned Sasha was clocked on the head etc. Yet they have time for filtering water and getting a ladder down, SMH.

 

 

  They kept throwing out names of bit characters like we were supposed to know or care who any of these people were.

 

I couldn't help contrast this with the respectable impact made by the actors who played Martin, Mary, even the bat and butcher knife team...they only had a few minutes but were real, believable, and affecting. The Grady cops have had big screen time for several episodes and all put together didn't have any memorable charisma.

But the more I think about it, these lollicops are way, way too into their laundry-slave industry. Is it really worth wasting time, gas, and, sometimes, ammunition, cruising around looking for people to drive into, just so that a small percentage of them will survive and be useful enough to push around and scream at for not sewing up a hole in your shirt?

 

Even growing food and raising guinea pigs, the effort tripled to feed the peons (and Old Strawberry Fart didn't look like he'd missed many meals.)

Like the dusting and polishing; the show needed a reason for captives that hadn't already been used (Woodbury, Terminus) but I guess they couldn't do all rapey because they had to shoehorn the pointless Dawn Lerner female power (in a rapey laundry, whatever that meant) arc. I would have thought writing something like a hospital full of captives growing food, raising meat, having slave-made products they trade to survivors in return for gasoline for the generators would be offensive enough---but not as much as laundry. I was getting worried they would start catching people for a minstrel show.

 

 

 

 

Bob was with the fire engine crew. He's the last person off the fire truck when they come to the hospital.

 

Jeez, you just scared the shit outa me.

 

The Hunters made those marks.  It was revealed while Gareth was eating Bob I believe.  This episode is the first time Morgan finds a clue to Rick's whereabouts.

The Termite-Hunters made the sideways L, Morgan is following a circle with a crosshatch (like a rifle sight) and Rick and Daryl carved their own symbol in a tree which Daryl uses when they escape Terminus and go locate the buried weapons.

These poor trees.

 

She was shot in the head. The back of her head exploded.

 

Yes. But when Daryl carries her out in his arms her head/hair sure is clean.

I don't remember that one off the top of my head.

The silent season opener was at the start of Season 3; after fleeing the farm in terror they are seen as a grimy, tough, adapted gang that clears a house of walkers, and scavenges supplies like a military unit all without a word. Loved it.

Edited December 1, 2014 by kikismom

[Timetoread]

Ok. Wow.  I've never been a Beth fan (I blame the writers and the actress, because Beth could have been a very, very interesting character) but I didn't actually cheer to see a bullet go through the skull of a healthy teenager.  I was disturbed by it.  I was glad that a bullet finally made Dawn stop talking though.  That said, I really hated this cop storyline.  Yes it was boring but I think what was missed in the telling of it is that these cops were keeping slaves.  So what was all that bull about good cop/bad cop?  They were ALL bad and it really pissed me off that there was even a discussion about trading.  Two people for two people?  What about the other slaves?  Aren't their lives important too?

 

I officially hate Tyrese and would rather he had died.  So much has happened, so many people have died because of him.  Thanks to his 1) inability to kill a bad guy who threatens a baby and 2) lacking the balls to own up to this inability, said bad guy was able to alert his friends (who didn't previously know about the baby) who walked in the church and called her out by name.  Unforgivable.  He then talked Rick and Co out of Rick's original plan, which would have killed ALL the cops and saved ALL the wards, in favor of an always messy kidnapping/trade plot that only ended up in MORE death.  I hate him, I don't care what they do with his character, he's unredeemable to me and needs to go.

 

Add to that Father Gabriel.  I want him dead.  The selfishness of this man is beyond the telling of it.  I can understand being scared.  I understand feeling guilty.  But what kind of excuse for human kind are you to bring a herd of walkers directly to the door of the church currently housing a woman, a teenager and a baby?  I hoped that Michonne would put that katana straight through him.  I thought that it would be a GREAT scene, showing how Rick and Michonne are of one mind.  How can she smile at a man who brought danger to those kids?  I just can't.

 

As for Maggie.  What is she crying about?  Glenn is right there.  I thought that was all that mattered to her.  I did have an allergy attack, though, for Daryl - the one who actually did care about Beth.  He's not going to be the same after this.

[ghoulina]

Are these shovels that break down into tiny parts and you assemble them? Inquiring minds need to know.

 

Absolutely. But I'd have to get a better look to determine if that's actually what they're using. 

 

Were we supposed to see Beth's attack of Dawn as heroic and brave? Because to me it just seemed angry, impulsive, and ill-conceived. How did she know it would end with only Dawn and herself dead? It could have sparked a bloodbath.

 

Exactly! I felt like TPTB decided at some point last season that Beth was going to have to go. So they created this idiotic hospital storyline as the vehicle to give Beth a grand, heroic death. But the problem is, they did not give adequate attention and care to this hospital storyline. First of all, they stocked it with actors who were as riveting as toast...so I just didn't care. Then they never really fleshed out WHAT exactly was going on there. Dawn was trying to hold things together, no matter what? Some cops were rapey? Some were good? The wards were meant to feel indebted so they never left? Meh. 

 

The place was too bad for me to feel any empathy for Dawn, to give her any passes. But it wasn't bad enough for the situation to have that urgency about it, to make me care. I went into this season anticipating something really creepy going on at the hospital - experiments or a breeding program. I could see them having a delusional dictator running that place, really thinking that they were making a difference. But...what? The wards were ironing sheets and sewing holes in uniforms? Oooooh, creepy. 

 

And then we have Beth's moronic death. I think Beth knew a lot of the cops hated Dawn, and that it wouldn't necessarily start a big chain reaction if she attacked her. But she stabbed her with the world's tiniest scissors? In the chest? Why not the throat. That's what I was thinking the entire time - go for the jugular, Beth! 

 

No, the entire thing from start to finish was sloppy as hell. It was not fleshed out because they just wanted to use it as a reason to give Beth this big send-off and it fell terribly flat, IMO. I really hope the writing improves next half, because this is not what I'm used to with TWD. 

[JackONeill]

I'm going to say this for the last time: The hospital plot didn't make a lot of sense, and what sense it did make didn't seem to have a lot of weight to it, partly because we didn't get to know any of the characters except for Dawn.  (Yes, there was the first rapey-cop.  Then a few others had a line here or there.  Some were referred to as the "good guys," what ever that really means.)  But with Dawn, who we knew best, she started out all evil-like, but then it sort of shifted to where we were supposed to, I guess, care for her.  But the whole thing seemed to be from a completely different show, almost a soap opera or maybe a less-heavy-weight Law&Order SVU.

 

But I will say this: I liked Beth, but knew I was fighting an uphill battle in my wish to keep her around.  But, and here's the thing: I'm glad she didn't get killed by a Walker, or by some nut like Gareth.  I think, in an odd way, it had more gravitas to have her killed the way it happened.  The whole hospital, like I said, seemed to be from some other show.  Everything was clean and scrubbed. Hell, it was always sunny outside. Then to see Beth's head get blown off -- whoa!

[kikismom]

The writers have shown they're capable of creating compelling female characters, so I don't know what went wrong here. I havent read the comics so I don't know how big her role is in them, but choosing her to hold up a storyline was a bad idea IMO.

I hope since Beth is dead, this is not a spoiler, but since you brought up The Published Product Who's Name We Must Not Speak, here it is

Beth doesn't have any role in the comic! lol she doesn't exist in the comic, and perhaps the showrunners should have thought there might be a good reason for that! (just MHO don't get mad, Beth lovers out there)

[Gwen-Stacys]

I for one will miss Beth. Going from responses I've seen on other sites, a lot of people (younger ones and some older) identified with her character because she went from a deeply depressed character willing to slit her wrists to someone who was so strong of heart. Her death felt very tacked on and very much for the shock instead of making it something that was organic to where her story was going. If they wanted to kill her off, it would've made more sense for Dawn to push her down the elevator shaft earlier in the episode instead of having her get SHOT IN THE HEAD by Dawn in front of people who obviously went through a lot just to get her back. It didn't even come off as reactionary as Dawn never seemed particularly trigger happy. Violent? Sure. It would've made sense for her to punch Beth or push her away as the scissors hit her in the shoulder.

And I'm in agreement with another poster (or was it the EW reviewer) who questioned why Rick even acknowledged Dawn's tacked on addendum for Noah. Like...they were almost on the other side of the door.

Long story short, this just comes off as a way to give Daryl some man-pain because his light at the end of the tunnel got snuffed out.

[Sakura12]

I didn't hate Beth as much as most seem too, so I'm a little disappointed she died. I kind of wanted to see the New Beth interact with the group a bit. I mean she has now killed two people that were not zombies and tried to kill the doctor and Dawn. So she's not the same Beth that left the prison. At that point she's more useful than Father put a baby in danger by being an idiot and Tyrese. 

 

I guess with Maggie, I'm going to have to go with she wrote Beth off as being dead since the Beth she knew was weak and wouldn't survive on her own. Then she got the news that Beth's alive and was devastated to get there and find out she died. 

Edited December 1, 2014 by Sakura12

[Primetimer]

A half-season ends and a major character is lost in an exchange of captives gone horribly wrong.

Read the story

[natyxg]

I didn't like the hospital plot either. At this point the whole 'group of people start out good but become bad' has gotten repetitive. The shocking thing will be if they find a group that actually works and has a good leader.

 

The hospital thing was also pretty meh. It was a bad place because the cops were enslaving weaker people and raping women, but it never became an interesting place. Maybe if the whole gang was there trapped and we spent a few episodes getting to know the characters it would have been better, but we didn't. It felt very superficial and the actors were pretty bad. It was also not creepy. There was no real sense of urgency. Hell, nothing big even happens to Beth. She was almost raped, yes, but she wasn't raped or tortured or anything that gave urgency to the situation. It's not that I wanted those things to happen to her, but I think we had to see them happen to someone, from their POV, so we could really feel the place was terrible, so we desperately wanted Beth and the orderlies to escape. Hell, IIRC we don't even see Noah get beaten, do we? So it's like I get it intellectually, but couldn't really get invested.

 

It's weird that they traded cannibals and Terminus for that.

[JackONeill]

I wonder if the writers are running out of steam.

 

Was it way to get rid of Beth?  But were there other, more efficient ways (i.e., not wasting entire episodes) to do it.  Why, oh, why?

 

I mean, the main characters learned nothing from this exercise (except that Rick is even more in his "shoot first, then I'll ask you questions, or I could just run you down with a car" mentality.  I guess, like someone above said, maybe this was to give Daryl some angst.  But, again, did they have to spend do much time on it.

 

Disappointing.

Edited December 1, 2014 by JackONeill

[Milaxx]

I know that it was supposed to be a journey of realization for Fr. Gabriel but it was poorly executed. He saw Bob leave with the leg attached and he saw Bob return without said leg. What did he think happened in between?

 

I think he understood they didn't  treat Bob very nicely, he just didn't believe they were cannibals.

Beth goes up to Dawn and whatever, then she seems to do something with her hand and we hear like flesh tearing... but we see shit. We don't see her hand, we don't see the wound, anything. I had to watch it two times before I thought "wait, did Beth stab her with those scissors?" which I thought was weird because it seemed to me like she was aiming for Dawn's middle. I mean, to stab her in the shoulder (was she going for the heart?) she needed to like raise her hand, and I didn't see that.

 

I also think Beth was aiming for Dawn's neck with the scissors and missed.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Milaxx

[kj4ever]

Did anyone understand what the hell Bob 2.0 was saying in the first scene?  I could not understand one thing he said except for you're all going to die.  Why do they continue to do that???

 

I don't understand how this show started off so freakin' good can go so horribly wrong.  I mean once they destroyed the Termites you almost had to watch The Talking Dead just to know what was going on in the show.  The writing is just terrible.  I'm still not sure which cops were supposed to be bad or good.  I hated the Dawn/Beth scenes because all I could think was they were trying to redeem Dawn?  Were they?  I am not a stupid person and do not need things pointed out to me, but this whole hospital arcs has been a hot messed dipped in stupid sauce.

 

Re: Beth stabbing Dawn with scissors.  By the positioning I think she was going for the jugular and missed.  I also think she did it because I think?? what we were supposed to learn about Dawn in the earlier part of the episode was she would not be seen as weak and she would not give up her power.  Beth knew Rick wasn't going to leave Noah, and Beth knew that Dawn wasn't going to let them walk out with Noah, so I think?? she tried to take her out before a big old war started.  Maybe?

 

Like I said, between the Bob 2.0 mumbling and the disjointed scenes I don't understand what those idiot writers were trying to get across, and don't even get me started on Rambo Carol getting out of her wheelchair and not only walking, but restraining a distraught Daryl.

 

Is it too much to ask that Daryl whip the living shit out of Tyreese for suggesting this stupid plan to begin with???

 

Then Rick needs to whip the living shit out of Daryl for listening to him.  I suppose it is all to bring about the man-pain for Daryl.

 

Do they have any female writers on this show, or all they all the comic book living in their parent's basement types like Kirk-a-whatever?

 

I'm not a shipper so I didn't cheer Beth dying or boo Carol living.  I really appreciate both characters, but I'm sure the AARP Women's group is smiling all day today.

[EyesGlazed]

The second way the standoff could maybe have been avoided is if Rick hadn't decided to kill the runaway cop. If he'd kept him alive, he would've had three cops to trade and Dawn could have accepted that without loss of face since it would have been a trade of equal numbers. When watching the opening, I'd thought that Rick made a dumb decision to kill the cop, because it seemed like a poor strategic move to reduce the number of hostages he had available, and that was underlined for me by the end.

 

Third, and easiest of all, Noah should have stayed outside, out of Dawn's sight. Bringing the runaway along was another poor strategic decision.

 

Great points.  And once again I have to ask, can't these people conceive and execute a plan that WORKS??  I get that the series is supposed to be nihilistic and dark, but it's starting to be comical that everything they do turns to s**t.

 

I for one will miss Beth. Going from responses I've seen on other sites, a lot of people (younger ones and some older) identified with her character because she went from a deeply depressed character willing to slit her wrists to someone who was so strong of heart. Her death felt very tacked on and very much for the shock instead of making it something that was organic to where her story was going. If they wanted to kill her off, it would've made more sense for Dawn to push her down the elevator shaft earlier in the episode instead of having her get SHOT IN THE HEAD by Dawn in front of people who obviously went through a lot just to get her back. It didn't even come off as reactionary as Dawn never seemed particularly trigger happy. Violent? Sure. It would've made sense for her to punch Beth or push her away as the scissors hit her in the shoulder.

 

Long story short, this just comes off as a way to give Daryl some man-pain because his light at the end of the tunnel got snuffed out.

Well said, I agree.  And it would have been interesting to see the new, strong Beth interact with the group after her experiences.

 

Do they have any female writers on this show, or all they all the comic book living in their parent's basement types like Kirk-a-whatever?

Ah ha ha!  kj4ever, you nailed it.

 

I like to think that the hospital community really will improve now that Dawn and the "bad cops" are gone.  And does anyone else think that Rick & Co. were a little precipitous in rejecting the offer to live at the hospital?  The Ricktatorship group is finally back together.  They have no place to live.  They outnumber and out-badass the cops and wards.  The hospital has food, medicine, shelter and beds.  Yet the Ricktatorship prefers to travel randomly in a fire truck?

Edited December 1, 2014 by EyesGlazed

[PinkSprinkles]

This episode made me miss the Termites. As awful as they were, it would have been interesting if they had factored into the MSF by using Bob as a bartering tool and trying to negotiate a trade for Carol from the hospital folks. It could have culminated in the death of Bob (let's pretend he's not bitten in this scenario), Sasha or Tyreese (not both), the Termites, and [x] amount of people at the hospital. 

 

All in all, very underwhelming MSF. I did enjoy Michonne's face when she was informed Eugene was full of crap, though. 

 

P.S. I also thought Rick shot Beth at first. 

[Milaxx]

I hated the Dawn/Beth scenes because all I could think was they were trying to redeem Dawn? Were they?

We got exposition about Dawn's former partner and how he went bad & Dawn had to put him down. Basically it was setup to make us see that it was Dawn and just a few of the cops like Bob 2.0 who were really the bad guys. Dawn had now become like her partner Hansen and needed to be put down. Beth apparently had some sort of epiphany about this and tried to take her out, but missed the jugular and ended up getting shot herself.

Did anyone understand what the hell Bob 2.0 was saying in the first scene? I could not understand one thing he said except for you're all going to die. Why do they continue to do that???

He was just begging for mercy saying they were safe in the hospital and telling Rick that they would die outside of the hospital. Edited December 1, 2014 by Milaxx

[JackONeill]

 

I like to think that the hospital community really will improve now that Dawn and the "bad cops" are gone.  And does anyone else think that Rick & Co. were a little precipitous in rejecting the offer to live at the hospital?  The Ricktatorship group is finally back together.  They have no place to live.  They outnumber and out-badass the cops and wards.  The hospital has food, medicine, shelter and beds.  Yet the Ricktatorship prefers to travel randomly in a fire truck?

 

Like I keep saying: this is one of those zany Bob Hope/Bing Crosby "Road" pictures.  Of course, now, without Beth, we don't have the singing.

[SimoneS]

I like to think that the hospital community really will improve now that Dawn and the "bad cops" are gone.  And does anyone else think that Rick & Co. were a little precipitous in rejecting the offer to live at the hospital?  The Ricktatorship group is finally back together.  They have no place to live.  They outnumber and out-badass the cops and wards.  The hospital has food, medicine, shelter and beds.  Yet the Ricktatorship prefers to travel randomly in a fire truck?

 

I don't agree. "Good" cops don't stand around and let bad cops rape and abuse other people. If they were really "good," they would have never let it happen in the first place and they would have kicked out or killed the bad cops. They were all amoral people who enjoyed having power over people weaker than themselves.  I expect Shepherd, the female cop, who seemed about to take charge after Dawn, will simply let the same things go on like they did when Dawn was in charge. Eventually, no doubt they will kill off each other.

 

Rick and his group would have ended up having to kill all the cops anyway. Rick and no one in their group would stand by while they continued to enslave, rape, and beat people. It would not end well, for hospital cops. Besides, staying in a hospital in the middle of walker-infested city is a death sentence. 

Edited December 1, 2014 by SimoneS

[ghoulina]

I like to think that the hospital community really will improve now that Dawn and the "bad cops" are gone.  And does anyone else think that Rick & Co. were a little precipitous in rejecting the offer to live at the hospital?  The Ricktatorship group is finally back together.  They have no place to live.  They outnumber and out-badass the cops and wards.  The hospital has food, medicine, shelter and beds.  Yet the Ricktatorship prefers to travel randomly in a fire truck?

 

Yea, but I don't think we truly know which cops were good and which were bad, or if ANY were good. I didn't believe a word any of them were saying. Were we supposed to think some wanted to stage a coup against Dawn because she was bad and they were good? Maybe it's that she wasn't bad enough? Maybe they just thought she was too controlling? Who really knows....the only one Noah (who lived there) said was good was Lamson, who was dead. I don't know that the hospital is going to be this awesome place to live now (despite the fact that they have enough power for dvd players and exercise bikes). And sure, Rick's group outnumbered them, but I just think they're exhausted of fighting bad guys right now. I think they need to get out of the general area and find a place to make their own. 

[nodorothyparker]

Ok here is a ZA I need to know how this happens question. Just watched them shoveling a grave in the scenes to come. Where do these shovels come from?

 

At a glance, it looked like a camp shovel.  They fold up pretty compactly and can fit in a backpack.

 

In thinking more about this, and I feel at this point like maybe I'm put more thought into all this the actual writers of the show, I agree with whoever said they didn't understand why Rick was even acknowledging the demand to give Noah back.  He already had his people back and by that point he knew they weren't keeping people there of their own free will.  He'd also seen from the captives they'd taken and the grumbling going on behind Dawn that he wasn't facing a unified front.  It really wasn't his problem if Dawn couldn't manage her own crew.  He'd obviously figured this out when he made the offer to anyone who wanted to leave to come with them and no one challenged him.

 

Maybe that's the point of this entire mishandled story.  For all the talk of good and bad cops, there weren't really any good people because they were still participating and backing a system that existed to kidnap and enslave people.  And for all their talk about how Dawn was the problem, none of the cops we met beside maybe elevator shaft boy (because I gave up trying to remember any names) was actually trying to do anything about it.  So what you really end up with is one control freak who liked her cardio and a bunch of passive-aggressive enablers who really liked clean laundry.  Terrifying.

 

I suppose we could even tie Carol's "miraculous" recovery into this.  Despite what they were apparently trying to sell us last episode, she wasn't on any kind of life support.  She wasn't in a coma.  Incompetent doctor "I let unskilled slave labor kill any possible competition for me so I continue to be useful" admitted he was only spitballing when he suggested she might be internally injured.  He didn't even know.  So all that for being banged up and needing to sleep it off.  (I'm accepting TV physics on the injuries because whatever.)  It wasn't any kind of functional hospital either.

 

Or maybe I'm just reaching to figure how we wasted half a season on this.

Edited December 1, 2014 by nodorothyparker

[Morrigan2575]

I think the point of the Dawn/Hansen comparison is to show that eventually anyone in that position will eventually go bad? I don't necessarily believe it but it seems to be amthe theme of this show that the ZA basically destroys your soul and eventually everyone goes bad to an extent. We've seen it with Shane (quickly) and with Carol and Rick over time.

I'm guessing that the cycle will repeat itself in the hospital with whomever takes over after Dawn.

[morgankobi]

I'm especially miffed that they brought Noah inside after the two cops on the parking garage specifically asked if they had him. C'mon guys!

[kj4ever]

There is a big light at the end of the tunnel.  I was thinking I would be dying because I'd have to wait until February and now I'm like "eh, I'll DVR it when it comes back on".

[Boofish]

When Father Pee Pants emerged from the fire truck in slow motion WEAPONLESS I thought exactly what is he going to do if confronted? Annoy someone to death? He ranks behind Judith, Eugene and Tyrese is badassness (not taking away from the badassness that is Judith)

 

It seems to me in ZA, you can't afford to have more than 3 F's to give and people need to realize Rick has used all of his already on

 

Merle (when he went back to get him off the roof and let him stay in the prison)

Randall (when he rescued him and didn't execute him)

Shane

 

He has none left  so Officer Road Runner never stood a chance

[HalcyonDays]

I hope since Beth is dead, this is not a spoiler, but since you brought up The Published Product Who's Name We Must Not Speak, here it is

Beth doesn't have any role in the comic! lol she doesn't exist in the comic, and perhaps the showrunners should have thought there might be a good reason for that! (just MHO don't get mad, Beth lovers out there)

 

See....this is WHY Spoilers Tags are a good thing --> I did not know that! Now I don't care about spoilers from the Published Product That Must Not Be Named, but some people do!. Excellent kikismom!

[Milaxx]

When Father Pee Pants emerged from the fire truck in slow motion WEAPONLESS I thought exactly what is he going to do if confronted?

 

I thought he had that machete that Carl gave him. In the screen cap on the recap you can kinda see it if you squint.

[ghoulina]

When Father Pee Pants emerged from the fire truck in slow motion WEAPONLESS I thought exactly what is he going to do if confronted? Annoy someone to death?

 

I thought I saw him with the machete as well, but at this point I think annoying people would be more effective. 

[mandolin]

Well. I had been accidentally spoiled on stupid facebook that Beth would die (plus I saw someone mention it on an instagram comment weeks ago - thanks, internets), so I wasn't surprised. I guess I could see it coming anyway. I'm glad. I didn't like the actress. I honestly didn't mind Beth's role (or the idea of it), but EK just couldn't act her way out of a cardboard box (my opinion of course). I'm sorry for Daryl and the characters who cared about her (not you, Maggie).

 

So glad to see Michonne get to kill some walkers. She is amazing. Whenever she or Rick or on screen doing their things (and/or stuff), I'm glued to it. For me, this show is Rick Grimes. Love the actor, love the character. I feel urgency and concern and joy and terror when he's around. (And remember when his undershirt used to be white?) This whole season has felt like such a holding pattern. A hiatus until the hiatus. I don't feel like much has happened. We gained a couple people and lost some people, all in a pretty low-key, boring fashion (other than the church massacre). I would rather see our group struggle with farming and building a place to live than waste any more time on these nothing characters that will die or be gone in the next half season. I am pretty disappointed overall in this season so far. :( I've stopped caring about quite a few characters, and I don't like it!

 

Nevermind the shovel, the dirt they were moving was so loose!

 

ETA: the show does so many things well (callbacks like "you can't go back" and the walker fingers through the door). I'm amazed at how they drop the ball so often though. Gimple needs to go rewatch Clear to get his mojo back.

Edited December 1, 2014 by mandolin

[Bruinsfan]

I also don't know what went wrong with Beth for me. Whether it was the writing, the direction, or Emily Kinney's dull, one-note performance, but I just could not get invested in her at all. I don't have the searring hatred that some others on this board have, but I think my opinion of her is worse: total indifference. When she was shot I experienced a little shock but nothing emotionally jarring.

The writers have shown they're capable of creating compelling female characters, so I don't know what went wrong here. I havent read the comics so I don't know how big her role is in them, but choosing her to hold up a storyline was a bad idea IMO.

I think you zeroed in on what went wrong by noting EK's dull, one note performance. From the way Kirkman, Chris, etc. praise her acting I think she must be a really lovely person inside and out in a way that keeps all the people associated with the show from realizing exactly how far short of the bar her performances are falling (or perhaps they just don't want to admit it). I suspect if Lauren Cohan had been given that sort of plot focus it would have made for a much more gripping storyline, but instead she was shuffled off to the sidelines while the weakest actor on the show was featured front and center in multiple episodes.

[LadyArcadia]

That's why FPP went back to the church after - I don't think he really believed that Gareth & co. were cannibals, until he saw the foot. That's when he realized that Rick's group was telling the truth.

 

OOOOOOOH!!! That's what that was all about?!  You know, I hate it when shows dumb things down for the viewers, but that went over my head.  That makes much more sense to me now.

 

Another thing that didn't make sense: I get that Beth went stabbity on Dawn and Dawn reacted and accidentally shot her in the head. But, why did Beth stab her in the first place?!  She said something like, "I get it now"  Get what?

 

All I can piece together is Beth "got" that Dawn was a bad person (which she already knew) and decided she'd stab her in front of two hostile groups ready to kill each other?

 

What the fuck was she thinking?  Am I missing something? I have to be missing something.

[Tippi Blevins]

When Sasha said it was good that Tyreese hadn't changed, I was like, "No! No it's not!" I don't remember if Tyreese knew at that point that Martin was a straight up cannibal, but he did know Martin threatened to kill a baby. Tyreese's gentleness was endearing at first but Lordy, a literal teddy bear at this point would provide better defense.

[kj4ever]

When Father Pee Pants emerged from the fire truck in slow motion WEAPONLESS I thought exactly what is he going to do if confronted? Annoy someone to death? He ranks behind Judith, Eugene and Tyrese is badassness (not taking away from the badassness that is Judith)

 

It seems to me in ZA, you can't afford to have more than 3 F's to give and people need to realize Rick has used all of his already on

 

Merle (when he went back to get him off the roof and let him stay in the prison)

Randall (when he rescued him and didn't execute him)

Shane

 

He has none left  so Officer Road Runner never stood a chance

Dude Judih is the biggest bad ass on the show.  She is a child that was under the guardianship of Carol and LIVED.

[GaiusB]

That was very weak episode, but sadly finales of TWD usually are. Beth´s death was handled poorly. My issues with it:

- like ending of previous episode it was based on a character acting really stupid for the plot purpose.

- it was very predictable, at the moment she took those scissors i knew she will try to kill Dawn and she will die as result

- emotional impact was very small because how they misshandled Maggie character in the past two seasons

 

My other problems with the episode. Carol was internally bleeding day before and now not only she survived, she can walk on her own. And Rick´s decision to leave the Hospital was clearly based on AMC budget calculations instead of on common sense.

[Texasmom1970]

May sound cold but I am not going to kiss Beth, not torn up about her getting killed off. When the show returns I better see some more Morgan, stop teasing us, love Lennie James!

To me the couple of episodes he was in made much more of an impact than how many seasons of Beth. I partially blame the writers, but Lennie James is also an a amazing actor. Hard to compete with.

[pasdetrois]

Even in her final dramatic scene, Emily K. had that weird hunched-shoulders thing going on, and it distracted me. I completely missed that she stabbed Dawn (although I wasn't surprised given the flashing HIDE SCISSORS IN CAST moment) and wasn't sure who shot Beth. Did we ever see her face express anything other than a blank, big-eyed stare?

 

There was an unexpected laugh when we saw the cluster of menacing dark-uniformed cops standing in the hospital corridor, one of whom appeared to be about four feet tall. "What doesn't belong in this picture?"

 

Idly wondering: can't this group ever stumble on a relatively not-insane and crazed situation?  I mean, our group are Good Guys - surely there are others out there?

Edited December 1, 2014 by pasdetrois

[TattleTeeny]

Of course there is that comical denial that the hatred is not due to the typical, predictable hatred of teen female characters.  If anyone believes that, I have a park in New York I'd like to see you.

 

I don't often believe in this so-called and rampant media-driven hatred, on this or on many other shows; sometimes the character just happens to be a chick. (But don't bother to try to "see" me a park; I bought a condo for the sole purpose of not having a yard.)

 

But maybe I'm naive; I also don't buy at all that Maggie didn't give a fuck about Beth simply because we didn't see her do so. There are a lot of thing we don't see but can reasonably assume that people do.

Edited December 1, 2014 by TattleTeeny

[nachomama]

Much like this episode I will be incoherent because I'm tired and I don't think my neck will ever recover from my drive yesterday. 

 

What exactly did Beth "get" at the last moment? If she didn't know enough about Dawn before this prisoner exchange, like she helped Dawn push the cop down the elevator shaft and Dawn already slapped her around enough...why she gotta have an epiphany and attempt a really, really lame brave move? At least she coulda killed Dawn  I actually shouted at my television "push HER down the elevator shaft" and at that moment I didn't care if it was Dawn or Beth was the pusher or pushee. 

 

This is now the second time that they have NOT killed all the bad guys. Rick wanted to go back after Terminus and wipe them all out, they poo poo'ed that idea. Now because female 2.0 throws up her hands and says "that's all the bad seeds" we just walk away? Hell the f no, mow them down. I don't even care about Beth that much but there shoulda been some Sonny Corleone gunshot action when Dawn shot Beth. They claimed Lamson aka bob2.0 was one of the good ones, why are we believing anyone? I need to rewatch, I was woozy

[Timetoread]

May sound cold but I am not going to kiss Beth, not torn up about her getting killed off. When the show returns I better see some more Morgan, stop teasing us, love Lennie James!

 

To me the couple of episodes he was in made much more of an impact than how many seasons of Beth. I partially blame the writers, but Lennie James is also an a amazing actor. Hard to compete with.

 

A poster asked this earlier in the thread, so I will co-sign:  what is all the rage about Lennie James/Morgan?  I don't mind him, the brief times that we've seen him but I don't get why there is so much hype and excitement over a character that has been featured in two episodes.  Is there a movie or show or SOMETHING (that clearly I missed) that has earned him such a loyal and earnest following?  Last we saw him on this show, he was cuckoo for cocoa puffs, do we feel that he's picked up some therapy along the way?  Just askin.

 

The same thing happened on another show I watch, Sleepy Hollow, when the actor John Noble joined the cast.  Everybody did a collective jig.  I still don't see what all the fuss is about.

[NoWillToResist]

So, I mostly hated this finale. You could see the machinations. Maggie, who hasn't said a fucking thing about her sister all season, suddenly has a conversation about her? Yeah, that doesn't telegraph anything. And I guess this explains why TPTB had her not mention Beth at all before; so that it would be so much extra heartbreaking for her to find Beth dead. Except that it achieved the opposite for me. I was waiting for the overwraught breakdown of Maggie but I'm sorry it just didn't feel earned. When Carol saw walkerized Sophia? Yes. This? No.

 

And Gabriel had to dig his way out of the church and schlep all the way to the school, taking his sweet time looking at everything like the world's worst anthropologist, enraging the walkers enough that they finally break through, so that he can lead them back to his sanctuary, and endanger Michonne, Carl and Judith. Um, the school wasn't going anywhere, asshole. You could have simply waited until lockdown was over to mosey on over to the school.

 

And after escaping, Michonne, Carl and Gabriel just hang out front, in full view of the walkers, thus further agitating them. Because of course they couldn't even temporarily leave the area - or go to the now abandoned school! - because they had to be there to welcome back the conveniently time Washinton crew. Ugh.

 

And Beth is killed because she acted OOC and attacked someone - and not even effectively. Never bring scissors to a gunfight. Jesus.

 

I could have been moved by her death, but the stupidity of it all and overt manipulation made it impossible for me.

 

Couldn't one person have reminded Dawn about the Emancipation Proclamation? Maybe it wouldn'thave changed her mind, but, seriously, when somebody is honestly standing there saying "Okay, we're done talking about regular people. Now give me back that black guy that I own..." you'd think a few people might have responses to that.

 

Hell, about saying "uh, if you wanted Noah, you probably should have mentioned that before we got our people back. Unless you want a showdown at the OK Corral here, you don't have a leg to stand on. You have no bargaining chips left, you dumbass!"

 

Beth stabbed Dawn with the scissors she had hidden in her cast. Dawn retaliated by blowing her head off and Daryl returned the favor

 

Dawn looked surprised/horrified at seeing the inside of Beth's head. Followed by her slo-mo "I didn't mean it" tells me that it was accidental, which I can believe. She was just stabbed...it makes sense that her finger on her trigger might have twitched.

 

I didn't like how we didn't get to see Carol wake up in the hospital. She just appeared in the wheelchair during the trade. They couldve had a great bonding scene with Carol and Beth with Carol waking up, etc.

This episode was really off and a major letdown.

 

Yeah, I was really hoping for a moment between the two ladies. Instead, I had to settle for Carol reaching out and taking Beth's hand as they awaited the prisoner exchange.

[kj4ever]

A poster asked this earlier in the thread, so I will co-sign:  what is all the rage about Lennie James/Morgan?  I don't mind him, the brief times that we've seen him but I don't get why there is so much hype and excitement over a character that has been featured in two episodes.  Is there a movie or show or SOMETHING (that clearly I missed) that has earned him such a loyal and earnest following?  Last we saw him on this show, he was cuckoo for cocoa puffs, do we feel that he's picked up some therapy along the way?  Just askin.

 

The same thing happened on another show I watch, Sleepy Hollow, when the actor John Noble joined the cast.  Everybody did a collective jig.  I still don't see what all the fuss is about.

He was on a show called "Jerico" and was absolutely fantastic.  I know that's why I'm so excited every time he comes on the show. He can act every single actor currently on the show under the table.

[mandolin]

Timetoread, John Noble was so, so good as Walter on Fringe. That's why I like him on Sleepy Hollow.

 

Now, Morgan, for me, calls me back to the beginning of the show, when it was so good. The brief relationship he and Rick had, and what they did for each other. Then, Clear was such a good ep to me. References to episode 1 when we'd been through so much crap since then. It was Rick remembering how far he'd come. Always gives me that feeling of...nostalgia maybe?

Edited December 1, 2014 by mandolin

[Bruinsfan]

Dude Judih is the biggest bad ass on the show.  She is a child that was under the guardianship of Carol and LIVED.

Not just that, her first act in this world was to take Lori out of it.

[JackONeill]

A poster asked this earlier in the thread, so I will co-sign:  what is all the rage about Lennie James/Morgan?  I don't mind him, the brief times that we've seen him but I don't get why there is so much hype and excitement over a character that has been featured in two episodes.  Is there a movie or show or SOMETHING (that clearly I missed) that has earned him such a loyal and earnest following?  Last we saw him on this show, he was cuckoo for cocoa puffs, do we feel that he's picked up some therapy along the way?  Just askin.

 

The same thing happened on another show I watch, Sleepy Hollow, when the actor John Noble joined the cast.  Everybody did a collective jig.  I still don't see what all the fuss is about.

He's a fan favorite and was in two of the more highly regarded TWD episodes.  Other than that, I don't him.  I'd be afraid if I were him:  If he does join the cast full time, he's likely to get marginalized.  Unless you're a Rick or Daryl (or, sadly, the Governor) you only get about one episode per season to do something other than stand around.  It's like now with Abraham -- he's going to be the firetruck driver.