S08.E10: In The Forest Of The Night

[aliya]

Small question here - what the heck was the little girl saying while she was flapping her arms about? She kept repeating something and try as I might, I couldn't understand it.

 

Not a fan of children in the show. Just sayin'...

[ganesh]

I actually like all the kids this season. I'm dumbfounded why any kids wouldn't want to take a trip to see a solar flare up close though. I'm also seeing Clara to be a terrible teacher in all the flashbacks this season too. 

 

Many of us believe the Gaia concept to be perfectly valid; to my mind, it's a spiritual issue as well as a environmental one and hardly a threat to science.

 

These 'earth based religions' for lack of a better term, paganism I guess, far predated the modern big three western religions by thousands of years. Christmas and Easter were straight up ripped from these old religion(s). I'm not religious, in fact I think it causes far more problems than it's worth, but to call the Gaia concept invalid is just incorrect. 

 

"Taking care of the earth because it's a living thing" or "the earth is our mother so we need to take care of it" is a pretty benign message. I'd rather have more of these people around.

[Toaster Strudel]

The camera movements and angles were brilliant!

[MarkHB]

I understood the kids just wanting to go home... Try taking some for a full day at Disney World and then, at 8 PM, telling them "and NOW we're going to Universal!" Even if they're initially up for it, they'll be asleep by the time you get out of the parking lot and you'll never get them to move before morning. Once they've had enough, that's it.

My favorite line: "there are sound evolutionary reasons to be very afraid right now." Humans may not have many natural predators left on Earth, but tigers are one of them.

Edited October 26, 2014 by MarkHB

[Luckylyn]

So Clara decides it's better to condemn innocent children to certain death on earth with their parents rather than be saved in the Tardis and The Doctor's fine with abandoning every human on earth to die without saving anyone.  I couldn't believe when he did what Clara ordered and just left them all to die.  Where is Donna "Save Someone" Noble when you need her?  I can respect Clara's choice to die because she's a grown up, but the kids are a different story.  Why not offer to try saving the parents who were in close proximity and the children?  And even if reaching the parents were impossible, how could Clara and The Doctor think leaving children to die when there is a way to save them is okay?  The Doctor should have insisted on saving as many people as he could.

 

I think Danny's desire to stay home and appreciate the wonders of the everyday world around him is totally valid, but I also think a desire to seek out the wonders of the universe is also a valid choice.  I feel like the sense of wonder this show is supposed to showcase has been seriously lacking.   The Tardis is a remarkable thing and should inspire awe, but I feel like the show doesn't remember that.  

[Jamoche]

This had its plusses - it's old-school "the Doctor gets a clever idea and saves the world", it kept moving, the temporary companion served a useful purpose in kicking the plot along - but big minuses too that wouldn't be so bad if we'd just leave Earth already:

 

It's contemporary Earth. We *know* it's not going to be destroyed. That's why classic episodes were set on other planets, in other times - the Doctor might be able to save the entire Earth colony in 2512, or only those few who can fit into the TARDIS.

 

Insta-gro trees. Other planets might well have trees that frequently band together to save those planets - they're alien planets, who knows? Earth doesn't. This isn't Nessie cruising down the Thames where the few people who did see it will convince themselves they were imagining it - everyone saw it, some of the trees that didn't go poof should have massive growth rings like the one in the museum, there's video evidence in all those news reports - a soccer game was delayed! *That's* going to be memorable if nothing else is!

 

And companions need to cut the ties, dammit! I want to toss a monkey wrench into the heart of the TARDIS so the Doctor can't navigate precisely anymore. Let's go back to the TARDIS taking the Doctor where he needs to be, not where he wants to be.

Edited October 26, 2014 by Jamoche

[ketose]

This episode is so bad, it makes me question the wisdom of bringing back Doctor Who at all. This abomination is sacrificing everything that is Doctor Who to satisfy the ego of the show runners.

 

I can't tell if I'll keep watching and be sad, keep watching because I don't care about the show anymore or stop watching to preserve my sanity.

[elle]

Are you dense? They're MAGIC TREES. They can do anything. Obviously, they found the sister who was probably abducted and magically transported her in a bush shuttle. It's all very reasonable if you've had a recent blow to the head.

Hands down the funniest thing I've read on this forum!  A bush shuttle, of course!  :-D

 

Beaten to it -- Clara left her marking there.  

Thank you, now I understand what those two were talking about "leaving her marking".  I was thinking it somehow meant "leaving her MARK"

 

So Danny scared a tiger away with a handheld torch? After taking a group of schoolchildren to within 10 feet of it? And Clara's reaction was 'what a hero, you saved us' instead of 'what were you thinking, bringing those children into such danger?'

I was spoiled for this episode, so scaring away a tiger with a torch*, while silly, made sense.  (as in: *a burning stick of resinous wood or twist of tow used to give light and usually carried in the hand)

 

After I yelled at the tv about Danny shining a flashlight in the tiger's eyes, and explaining this to my husband, I had a laugh at myself for not recognizing "torch=flashlight".

 

Small question here - what the heck was the little girl saying while she was flapping her arms about? She kept repeating something and try as I might, I couldn't understand it.

She was saying something like "the thoughts, there are so many thoughts"

 

One of those weird coincidences, after watching this episode, I switched over to a weather channel where they were highlight "weird weather"  The topic was about the green fog that covered Moscow in April of 2012.  Long story short, the culprit - TREES - Birch trees to be exact.  They were over pollinating, the pollen was pulled up into the clouds giving it the eerie green glow.

 

From a green Earth to a green city.

[tankgirl73]

The solar flare interacting with the oxygen cushion would definitely burn, though not necessarily explode.  The idea was that the extra layer of oxygen would provide the fuel source for the burn, so that by the time the oxygen was used up, the flare would have died off, and thus it wouldn't reach the 'normal' atmosphere.

Wouldn't that have burnt up every plane and helicopter and satellite between the sun and the ground ? Typically oxygen provides fuel for fire.. So if they wanted to diminish the effects of the fire wouldn't it have made more sense for the earth to produce massive amounts of CO2 so that the fire would have nothing to burn in the atmosphere. Of course that would have caused a temporary smothering effect too...

 

 

No, it wouldn't have burnt up everything between the sun and the ground, because that would be destroying the regular atmosphere which is exactly what they were originally expecting to happen.  The trees were providing an *extra* cushion of oxygen *above* the normal atmosphere so that *that* would get burned off, saving the regular atmosphere underneath.

 

I'm not saying it would work, just that that's how they were explaining it.

 

I was also wondering about year 8.  Most of those kids were believable in a 11-14ish range.  But Maeve couldn't have been older than 9.  Not just in her size and the look of her face, but the way she spoke, and the childishness of her drawings.  

 

Oh and I was reminded of another annoyance -- the classroom flashbacks.  Showing very clearly just what terrible teachers Clara and Pink are.  Holy cow.

 

And I know that there are indeed "special" classes for kids who have various problems, but do they really call them "talented and gifted" anywhere?  I understand giving it a name that's not saying "the dumb class" or "the slow learners" -- they deserve positive encouragement.  But "talented and gifted" is just cruel -- not to mention unfair to the *actual* gifted classes.  Because no matter what you call it, the other kids are going to know that this class is for the poorer students, and if someone who is actually legitimately gifted says "I'm in the gifted class" then the other kids will assume the negative euphemistic interpretation.  

 

I did appreciate the little touches of the kids displaying smarts, knowledge, logical thoughts, better behavior, higher interest levels, and better cooperation, when out in the real world facing real issues rather than the artificial constructs of the classroom.  Even things like the girl who picked up information from the displays at the museum and then applied it to the trees having flowers and nuts -- something she observed on her own, rather than something that was arbitrarily taught at her on somebody else's pre-ordained schedule.  Methinks the rotten teachers that Clara and Pink are should try to learn a thing or two from that.  :/

[elle]

This episode is so bad, it makes me question the wisdom of bringing back Doctor Who at all. This abomination is sacrificing everything that is Doctor Who to satisfy the ego of the show runners.

 

I can't tell if I'll keep watching and be sad, keep watching because I don't care about the show anymore or stop watching to preserve my sanity.

A silver lining, at least that I've seen here, is that people are going back and searching out the old serials and being introduced or reintroduced to the Doctor.

[benteen]

Clara did condemn those kids but then again, she was willing to condemn the people of the Earth against their wishes in Kill the Moon, despite having NO evidence that that thing would leave another moon.

 

I agree they should have offered to save those kids parents.  If not, then get the kids out of there.  If Danny wants to stay and die, he's an adult and that's his choice.  Same with Clara.

[Mabinogia]

I feel like the sense of wonder this show is supposed to showcase has been seriously lacking.   The Tardis is a remarkable thing and should inspire awe, but I feel like the show doesn't remember that. 

 

 

This is something that really bothers me. I feel like Moffat, in his mistaken idea that this show is about the companion and not the Doctor, has gone out of his way to show how totally unimpressed everyone now is with him, the TARDIS and all of it. Now, I get that the whole "it's bigger on the inside" thing can get a little tedious, but this trend of jaded humans not being surprised or impressed just makes them unlikeable, not cool.

 

I get what they were going with, in their oh so heavily handed way, with the kids not wanting to see the solar flare. This whole series seems to be about where Clara really belongs. It all rings strongly of "there's no place like home". Yes, Dorothy, Oz is a magical, wonderful place, but you should be home because that's where true happiness lies. Now, if only she'd figure it out and quit the Doctor so we can get a companion who actually wants to be there.

 

Every time Missy gets the end scene I keep thinking I accidentally switched channels. I keep trying to forget that storyline exists but they keep having to remind me. Can she and Clara run away together? Please?

 

And with Clara, willing to let those kids die. The hell? Yes, Clara, he will take them to another planet, one that is livable for them, one they can build up and make their own. They knew each other so it's not like you were picking one kid to go live alone. Yes, they would miss their parents, but that's not a reason to kill them. That's like saying that if a child's parents die in a car crash the kid should get executed so they don't miss them. That is the least logic I've ever seen. And I'm moving closer and closer to the Hate Clara camp. I just can't with her anymore.

Edited October 26, 2014 by Mabinogia

[ABay]

It's not the worst episode I've ever seen, but it did take too long getting started. Among all the things I've disliked about this season, the 2 at the top of the list are Clara the Part-Time companion and the complete waste of Peter Capaldi. He's so much better than this; Moffat should be ashamed but I'm afraid his sense of shame was surgically removed along with the ability to see women as something other than uteruses on legs.

[Terrafamilia]

If the kids and their two teachers were locked up in the museum overnight, how did Maeve get out to run around in the brand new forest? Is Missy a lockpicker now?

In addition to being a lame story I didn't care for the frantic direction. The picture quality was also disconcerting because it seemed videotaped rather than filmed. I may be dating myself but it was like in old shows from the 70's and 80's that were generally filmed where they would cut away for a quick scene such as an exterior shot of the car the characters are in being run off the road and that scene's picture quality would be conspicuously different from the rest of the show. Here it was the entire episode except for maybe some scenes with Maeve alone. Did they do this in super high def or something? Have they been doing this all along and I just haven't noticed? I watch on Dish. Are they bumping up the quality of the signal they send to make amends for exiling Cartoon Network and TCM?

[Luckylyn]

And with Clara, willing to let those kids die. The hell? Yes, Clara, he will take them to another planet, one that is livable for them, one they can build up and make their own. They knew each other so it's not like you were picking one kid to go live alone. Yes, they would miss their parents, but that's not a reason to kill them. That's like saying that if a child's parents die in a car crash the kid should get executed so they don't miss them. That is the least logic I've ever seen. And I'm moving closer and closer to the Hate Clara camp. I just can't with her anymore.

Her logic that it's better that the kids be dead than orphans is seriously messed up.  The fact Moffat seems think that this was perfectly sensible is scary.   It's just further evidence that he never thinks about the larger implications of what he writes.

[random chance]

I don't even know why the episode needed this bullshit excuse to leave the children behind - the problem was going to be solved a few minutes later anyway. Instead of trying to justify it, why not just herd them into the TARDIS and then while they're all weeping and screaming, "d'oh what a minute, the trees are saving earth," the tree-speaking kid makes the phone call, voila. Same result without the lame excuse for letting children die in a fire.

[truther]

I don't even know why the episode needed this bullshit excuse to leave the children behind - the problem was going to be solved a few minutes later anyway. Instead of trying to justify it, why not just herd them into the TARDIS and then while they're all weeping and screaming, "d'oh what a minute, the trees are saving earth," the tree-speaking kid makes the phone call, voila. Same result without the lame excuse for letting children die in a fire.

Because for some bizarre reason, the show has decided to subordinate characters and story to some season-long arc about a triangle of tension between the Doctor, Clara and Danny.  So instead of these characters all doing things that are coherent and plausible, they do whatever is necessary to establish the next stage of this story arc.  It's entirely bass-ackwards storytelling because it means nothing these people do makes any sense or is in any way relatable.  They're puppets being dragged this way and that by a largely unseen puppetmaster who seems to get bored easily. 

[Jamoche]

Her logic that it's better that the kids be dead than orphans is seriously messed up.  The fact Moffat seems think that this was perfectly sensible is scary.   It's just further evidence that he never thinks about the larger implications of what he writes.

Well, why put any effort into people thinking about it being the end of the world when everyone - viewers, writers, and characters alike - know it really won't be?

[benteen]

The Missy stuff, does it even qualify as a storyline?  I thought her initial appearance in Deep Breath was intriguing.  But she's been seen so little, has had so little impact on the season, and the subject matter itself hasn't been explained any further.  It's supposed to be the season finale storyline but it's been such an unexplained non-factor that it will be like something brand new.

[shapeshifter]

The one thing in this episode that I found charming was The Doctor's interactions with the children.

[Llywela]

The Missy stuff, does it even qualify as a storyline?  I thought her initial appearance in Deep Breath was intriguing.  But she's been seen so little, has had so little impact on the season, and the subject matter itself hasn't been explained any further.  It's supposed to be the season finale storyline but it's been such an unexplained non-factor that it will be like something brand new.

In fairness, a lot of the New Who seasonal arcs have played out in much the same way - just look at Bad Wolf, it was just a recurring phrase that many viewers hadn't even picked up on until it was made explicit right at the end of the season. Back then no one expected a 13-episode storyline to be in your face all the time, explained and developed throughout the season alongside the various other unrelated adventures. In fact, I'd be quite happy with even less seasonal arc and more standalone adventures that allow the characters room to breathe and progress naturally.

[tv-talk]

You just KNOW that all Clara's annoyingness and ruining of the show is going to be swept under the rug with a couple stupid lines from Missy and the Doctor being like "So THAT'S why you lied to Danny so easily and wanted to let the children die! IT WASN'T REALLY YOU!"

 

This season has been abjectly awful, amongst the very worst in series looong history. At least when 10 and 11 went downhill they'd already had some excellent stuff under their belts, Capaldi is now slumming worst Doctor honors in his 1st season and the pressure is going to be on to improve. There's no reason for an actual Sci-fi fan to watch this show anymore which is unforgivable. 

 

When the Doctor first met Mave and they were talking, it hit me so hard how much superior the episode would have been if TARDIS had taken off right then and Capaldi spent an episode on another planet with this little girl. The Doctor's full and good personality could have come out but we're not going to get that under the current setup and Capaldi will remain completely stifled as the Doctor until it changes.

 

Give the man a chance to be THE DOCTOR!

In fairness, a lot of the New Who seasonal arcs have played out in much the same way - just look at Bad Wolf, it was just a recurring phrase that many viewers hadn't even picked up on until it was made explicit right at the end of the season. Back then no one expected a 13-episode storyline to be in your face all the time, explained and developed throughout the season alongside the various other unrelated adventures. In fact, I'd be quite happy with even less seasonal arc and more standalone adventures that allow the characters room to breathe and progress naturally.

 

 

The big difference is Bad Wolf was a concept rather than an actual character who talks a bit occasionally and apparently lives in an afterworld populated with people who died in relation to the Doctor. I mean how can they wrap that up quickly? There's no way to do it well, it's far too late for that. Does all this spill over into next season? I dont read the spoilers so I have no idea but am worried next season will be just as much Clara/Danny as this one if not moreso.

Edited October 26, 2014 by tv-talk

[Starchild]

Am I wrong, or has nuWho been much more earthbound than classic Who ever was, including the Third Doctor's stint with UNIT?

[Pattycake2]

It doesn't help matters that Clara's life is so BORING on Earth and her boyfriend just confirmed he's an unimaginative bore too.

 

This.  Totally.  And, yeah, I knew the trees were protectors before the Doctor did.  Not cool.

[alrightokay]

This episode could have been good--I wish that it had focused more on the fairy-tale thread and less on the clunky pro-environment message.  I actually liked how Twelve interacted with the kids, and it would have been interesting to see the Doctor as a pseudo-"Big Bad Wolf" to Maebh's "Little Red Riding Hood."  (I thought it was funny how Twelve referred to a "strangely compelling masculine figure" in talking about fairy tales with Clara.)  

 

If that couldn't have happened, then I wish that the writer had made better use of the Blake poem that the episode title comes from, which is about the loss of innocence ("The Tyger" comes from the collection Songs of Experience).  The Doctor himself could be seen as "The Tyger"--this fantastic being who is powerful, and fierce, and awe-inspiring ("Tyger Tyger, burning bright,/ In the forests of the night;/ What immortal hand or eye,/ Could frame thy fearful symmetry?").  The Tyger can be cruel but it's also beautiful.  The poem kind of reminds me of what Latimer said about the Doctor in "Family of Blood" back in S3: "He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night and the storm in the heart of the sun.... He's ancient and forever. He burns at the centre of time and can see the turn of the universe....  and... he's wonderful."  I'm not sure what kind of story they could have built around the poem, but having the kids come out of the forest--and their time with the Doctor--a little wiser would have been nice.  

[elle]

 

In fairness, a lot of the New Who seasonal arcs have played out in much the same way - just look at Bad Wolf, it was just a recurring phrase that many viewers hadn't even picked up on until it was made explicit right at the end of the season. Back then no one expected a 13-episode storyline to be in your face all the time, explained and developed throughout the season alongside the various other unrelated adventures. In fact, I'd be quite happy with even less seasonal arc and more standalone adventures that allow the characters room to breathe and progress naturally.

The Bad Wolf arc is an example of how do a season well in this new era.  I also see the Amy&Rory and River stories as a total arc over two seasons.  Remember this is the generation that has grown up with tv shows that the "over reaching story arc" as the norm (see X-Files).

 

For old school fans like me, I remember part of the fun of the Turlough character arc during Five's time was how occasionally Turlough would randomly open a porthole or something and be talking to the Black Guardian.

 

This Doctor, and to some extent I think it is due both to the actor and the writing, seems as if he is trying to recover from a case of long term amnesia.  There is always a bit of this when a doctor regenerates where he doesn't remember the recent past sometimes, but he did know event from the distance past.  Twelve should have remember about the magic tree canopy.  Once he figured it out, he refers to the events at Tunguska and in Brazil.  Did the TARDIS tell him or did he suddenly remember it?

[Florinaldo]

After two episodes in which Clara and the Doctor were blissfully separated for a good chunk of the story, I was disappointed when it looked as if she was bound to rejoin him somewhere in the forest once the premise was established. Surprisingly though, Danny and the kids acted as a sort of narrative buffer, separating the two or at least dampening the storytelling-killer that Clara has become. It left more space for what I consider to be the best Doctor portrayal since Pertwee, although Colin Baker is a close rival. Capaldi has really come into his own, even though he has to struggle through some really sub-par material at times. If the kids and Danny can once again serve to highlight his performance, they are welcome to appear in each further episode.

 

In this episode, the writer seemed to pull plot contrivances out of his anatomy every chance he got. And although SF can allow for one or two science howlers per story to open the way for the "speculative" part, this one once again reveled in ignoring every aspect of real science and kept on bringing up explanations that made no rational sense and resorting to character contrivances required only for expediency's sake.

 

I think the thing I found most annoying was that this whole interconnected "trees are sentient creatures" Gaia bullshit is the same kind of hippy crap that says if a traumatised girl starts hearing voices she shouldn't be put on medication because the "universe" is "talking to her".

New Age babble is a rich source for SF writers who suffer from a drought of inspiration; concepts like Gaia or the Anthropic principle for example, whether recycled from old beliefs or recently minted, offer easy material for stories or sub-plots, never mind that they make no sense from a science point of view. They are a facile crutch for writers who have little knowledge or sympathy for the genre of Science-Fiction and do not care to do the hard work, as appears to be the case for the one who penned this episode; in fact, those concepts are more akin to Fantasy and that is unfortunately what scripts have more and more turned to in recent seasons. Claptrap that has been around for millenia is still nonsense, just older; it is unfortunate that the show (and the Doctor himself) seemed to buy into that silly notion of the planet and its flora developing a conscience, in contrast to when the show used to strive to keep at least a semblance of rationality in its flights of fancy. But in light of the tone and content of the past few seasons, it is no surprise that the show took that route.

[supposebly]

God, this show has become stupid and really badly written.

 

The idea with the trees was nice but the execution......

 

It's official, Pink and Clara are the worst teachers ever. Losing a child for hours without even noticing.

 

And then at the end: the children are the most important thing.

 

And Danny "would never leave the children". Right, the math teacher who can't be bothered to count whether he still has all the kids in his charge. And that was before they left the museum. They slept in a museum?

 

The lying but she is the most blabla, whatever thing in the world....

 

The Little Red Riding hood theme was pointless and shoehorned in.

 

And on top of things, a commercial about the evils of medication.

 

I laughed when the Doctor talked about how we are scared of the forest. Yes, sunny, leafy forests. Come to the Black Forest one day, that's what a scary forest looks like.

 

That forest wasn't scary and the child running away from wolves was ridiculous after she stood right in front of them.

 

So, downtown London becomes deserted all of a sudden except for a lonesome mother on her bike. Because of trees. Right.

 

Everything felt like it was said and done for plot reasons. And that plot made no sense in any way.

 

Now they managed to make both Clara and Danny completely and utterly unlikeable. Just. Go away. Both of you. I don't care about your immature relationship troubles, your ridiculously bad lying, your nagging and still thinking Clara is the bestest ever at the same time, and your incredibly bad child-watching abilities. Let alone getting them killed instead of rescued. WTF?

I couldn't help thinking that Clara just didn't want to be bothered with children who cry for their parents for weeks. She'd rather get them killed. Quality teacher, that one.

 

 

I agree they should have offered to save those kids parents.  If not, then get the kids out of there.  If Danny wants to stay and die, he's an adult and that's his choice.  Same with Clara.

They really, really should have.

 

I feel so bad for Peter Capaldi.

 

Spoilered from the trailer:

Clara Oswald has never existed. So, why has she been bugging me for this and the last season?

Edited October 27, 2014 by supposebly

[April Bloodgate]

When they thought the trees were trying to hurt them/fight back, my thought was "This wasn't scary in 'The Happening', and it's not scary here."

[AudienceofOne]

I laughed when the Doctor talked about how we are scared of the forest. Yes, sunny, leafy forests. Come to the Black Forest one day, that's what a scary forest looks like.

 

 

 

All of the Grimm fairy tale stuff he kept referring to is from the Black Forest originally. In English stories, the forest is often portrayed as a haven (i.e. Robin Hood). So the idea we're progammed with a genetic fear of forests is just wrong.

[Kalliste]

Was this written to be a companion piece to Kill the Moon? Because it failed just like that episode. First an abortion subtext and now one about not taking medication for mental illness. All we need is an anti vaccine one to complete the trifecta of stupidity. Oh another moral dilemma where the response is rational but its treated like a blood thirsty choice. Never mind the fact that Clara took sole responsibility for a group of children and condemned them to death. But that's okay for whatever reason. And come on wolves in the episode and not one little reference to Bad Wolf? 

 

What's so frustrating about this series is it had all the makings of being the best since four but they've wasted it. Two great leads, none of the baggage from previous series and some new writers. Instead its fallen into the same rut as series six and seven. Inconsistent characterization, fairy tale endings, rushed romance and screwing with DW history for no reason. 

 

I might have heard it wrong but I'm pretty sure at the end the doctor said "people not having babies" or something along those lines as though it was a bad thing.. so apparently we all need to be having kids and no abortions and no medication for mental illness.

[romantic idiot]

Maybe it was a ran about misdiagnosis / trigger happy medicating? I mean, she was hearing things that were actually there. *shrugs*

The Tardis is a remarkable thing and should inspire awe, but I feel like the show doesn't remember that

And they lampshades it twice, with first Maeve being unimpressed, then the rest of kids going - after an insta-forest, nothing else can surprise us. Left behind indeed. 

 

I don't even know why the episode needed this bullshit excuse to leave the children behind - the problem was going to be solved a few minutes later anyway. Instead of trying to justify it, why not just herd them into the TARDIS and then while they're all weeping and screaming, "d'oh what a minute, the trees are saving earth," the tree-speaking kid makes the phone call, voila. Same result without the lame excuse for letting children die in a fire.

Oh, I know the answer to this - they wanted Clara to save the Doctor again. She had to sacrifice herself for the Doctor, she lied to get him back to the Tardis, so that he could be saved. This is taking the last line of Pretty Woman too far. 

[Llywela]

Oh, I know the answer to this - they wanted Clara to save the Doctor again. She had to sacrifice herself for the Doctor, she lied to get him back to the Tardis, so that he could be saved. This is taking the last line of Pretty Woman too far. 

That and also they wanted Clara to have that exchange with the Doctor about not wanting to be the last of her kind, so everything that led up to that moment had to be twisted and contrived, sacrificing both plausibility and character integrity to make that line possible in a context that did not support it. Awful storytelling.

[wayne67]

The solar flare interacting with the oxygen cushion would definitely burn, though not necessarily explode.  The idea was that the extra layer of oxygen would provide the fuel source for the burn, so that by the time the oxygen was used up, the flare would have died off, and thus it wouldn't reach the 'normal' atmosphere.

 

 

   

Wouldn't that have burnt up every plane and helicopter and satellite between the sun and the ground ? Typically oxygen provides fuel for fire.. So if they wanted to diminish the effects of the fire wouldn't it have made more sense for the earth to produce massive amounts of CO2 so that the fire would have nothing to burn in the atmosphere. Of course that would have caused a temporary smothering effect too...

 

    

No, it wouldn't have burnt up everything between the sun and the ground, because that would be destroying the regular atmosphere which is exactly what they were originally expecting to happen.  The trees were providing an *extra* cushion of oxygen *above* the normal atmosphere so that *that* would get burned off, saving the regular atmosphere underneath.

I'm not saying it would work, just that that's how they were explaining it.

 

 

 

 

Unless that layer of oxygen was seperated from the normal atmosphere of Earth by a layer of space (which depending on the strength of the flare could be rendered moot) than all it would have done is provide more fuel for the fire not less... Fire is a result of 3 elements fuel heat and an oxidiser commonly oxygen. Fire continues until one of the combustion triangle has been removed from the equation.

 

I'm going to ignore the absurd growth rate of the trees because even if that was possible the end result would be that the nutrients absorbed for that growth would have disappeared into nowhere along with the magic trees. Not great for agriculture. Not that anything on Doctor Who has any long term effects any more.

 

They might as well just stop explaining things on the show with pseudo science and just say its magic because their explanations have no basis in logic or the realities of Earth. It appears that the writers aren't even trying to ground this show in a basis of reality any more. I do more research on science for writing crappy xmen fiction than these people do for a long running sci fi show. It's sad. Reset buttons are the standby of sitcoms, cartoons and lazy writers. If you want me to care about characters, the consequences of their actions should last longer than an episode otherwise why watch ?

 

From what I've read. The easiest way to make this seem less contrived is to change the time scale. Have the Doctor not see Clara for a month because he's been busy or he got the wrong time date or Clara has been too busy with Danny to be bothered and then she calls him... When trees have been noticed worldwide growing faster than usual over the last month. Instead of it being a random one night thing, it would be a random thing that worried people like the cubes in the slow invasion but then became a thing humans didn't care about any more. Then you can have Gaia realistically responding to a corrosponding surge of solar energy on a planet wide scale with increased growth culminating in a larger extensive spread of growth just before the major surge. The planet is old... at least 6000 years according to some religions you have to give it some time to protect itself from damage.

 

A longer time span would explain why people were less inclined to wander out as it wouldn't be a random curiosity it'd be an extension of something they'd already seen. Then you could have a time jump of a month after the flare where humans had restored the world wide balance by cutting down the trees and cleaning up after the mess or something.

 

As for Clara... how do you solve a problem like Clara. I'd say jettisoning her out to space would be a good solution. Even if Clara is being used by a shadowy female... she can still be interesting. Amy remained interesting even when she was really a ganger spying on the Doctor.

Edited October 27, 2014 by wayne67

[truther]

They might as well just stop explaining things on the show with pseudo science and just say its magic because their explanations have no basis in logic or the realities of Earth. It appears that the writers aren't even trying to ground this show in a basis of reality any more. I do more research on science for writing crappy xmen fiction than these people do for a long running sci fi show. It's sad. Reset buttons are the standby of sitcoms, cartoons and lazy writers. If you want me to care about characters, the consequences of their actions should last longer than an episode otherwise why watch ?

Beyond my dislike of Clara, this is the real problem plaguing the show right now.  They're not even trying.  And the consequences of their actions don't even make it to the end of the episode anymore, let alone beyond. 

[tv-talk]

I would disagree that the concept of the flora protecting the Earth is "hippy claptrap" or whatever that doesn't belong on Doctor Who. The notion of sentient life popping up in all manner of places unexpectedly is very much a sci-fi concept. In fact I would say that the offhanded rejection of such concepts by the established science of whatever era the Doctor is in is often used to show the ignorance of people (human and otherwise) assuming they know everything. The way they went about it may have been lame but the idea of a misunderstood intelligence thought to be dangerous but in fact behaving reasonably is part and parcel to Sci-fi.

What's awful is the total disregard for any attempt at science following the premise i.e. how would the trees actually protect the Earth from a massive solar flare. Because they regulate the oxygen and were flame retardant? That's pretty bad and what was painfully worse is the sonic screwdriver's elevation to magic wand that can do anything so as to hurdle any situation and advance the plot. I mean we're getting to the point where the Doctor probably couldnt accomplish anything without the Sonic, that is way way offtrack from the sonic's original intent.

[Gentian root]

Small question here - what the heck was the little girl saying while she was flapping her arms about? She kept repeating something and try as I might, I couldn't understand it.

 

Not a fan of children in the show. Just sayin'...

Maebh, who I am sure IRL is a very sweet child, gets the Greedo (SW-New Hope)Award for One Word per Sentence Understood by the Audience:

Greedo:  "Ota ba tinto pada, Solo?" (or something)

Maebh: "Ba susu mubba muba pumbum, Miss."

[RedHackle]

It's quite a skill for a writer to come up with something that's nonsensical, ponderous, annoying, self-indulgent and mind-numbingly boring.

 

Word.

 

For a while now, I've been trying to convince myself that the show has not jumped the shark, it's just having a rough season. Oy.  Is it ever.  I like Capaldi, and I've always been one of the few Clara defenders here, but the chemistry (read: writing) between them just doesn't work.  And this episode was such a hot, sticky, smelly mess I don't even know what to say.   The moon episode infuriated me it was so aggressively bad, but at least it was cohesive.  I don't know what this was.

[LoneHaranguer]

 

It's apparently the only poem ever because it's the only one tv ever uses, I swear.

And often misquoted, although If the Earth is covered in greenery, maybe it's okay to say "forest" instead of "forests".

[elle]

Seriously. He was a soldier so he's doesn't want to go into space and check out a cool solar flare. In a wondrous spaceship? There's no danger involved even. This is doing a disservice to soldiers everywhere - and I guess we now know why DW is suddenly holding soldiers in contempt - because the writers do. 

So much word!

 

 

 

i didn't. It's ridiculous. These are children - where's the sense of wonder that children bring with them? Can you imagine your children just giving up and going home and not wanting to go up into space?

While the writers are behind this lack of wonder with the kids, I find myself giving them a little bit of slack.  These kids are scared but not about to show it, so they act as if this was a normal day and want to go home, they really just want their families.  

 

The one thing in this episode that I found charming was The Doctor's interactions with the children.

If the episode had split the group into the kids with the Doctor figuring out the problem while Danny and Clara searched for Maeve all the while quibbling with each other, that would have been an episode with possibilities.

 

Am I wrong, or has nuWho been much more earthbound than classic Who ever was, including the Third Doctor's stint with UNIT?

I think it may feel that way even though there has been at least three off world episodes (Into the Dalek, Time Heist, and Kill the Moon).  It feels as if it is earthbound this season because the writers have the show tethered to the Earth through Clara's "adventures".  No matter where or when she goes with the Doctor, it always comes back to her life on Earth.

 

How does this compare to her adventures with Eleven every Wednesday at 3pm?  Poorly, imho, simply because we saw very little of Clara's home life during that season(s).  "The Bells of St. John" probably had the most at home with Clara scenes as it was set on Earth.  (an aside - I did like the part at Clara's home when the Doctor was trying to kid-sit while she was "out".  Loved Eleven with and without kids.)

Edited October 27, 2014 by elle

[benteen]

Clara's family like has never been important and her life and relationship on Earth is boring.  She works at Coal Hill, ground zero for the Doctor's adventures in time and space and it's significance is never even hinted at this season.  Which makes Coal Hill just another school.  Her boyfriend and students are completely unimpressed with the TARDIS and have no sense of imagination.

 

The show has always been tethered to Earth.  Even after the Doctor's exile on Earth ended, the first two plus years of the Tom Baker era had a lot of Earth-based stories, in its past and future.  But they weren't stories about Clara, her boring boyfriend, her boring students, and her boring life.

[ganesh]

If they're going to be on earth so much, they might as well cross paths with UNIT. They've been on NuWho already.

[wayne67]

I would disagree that the concept of the flora protecting the Earth is "hippy claptrap" or whatever that doesn't belong on Doctor Who. The notion of sentient life popping up in all manner of places unexpectedly is very much a sci-fi concept. In fact I would say that the offhanded rejection of such concepts by the established science of whatever era the Doctor is in is often used to show the ignorance of people (human and otherwise) assuming they know everything.

 

 

Personally the idea of sentience of a thing considered not to be alive that turns out to be sentient and capable of self defence doesn't bother me. It's provided at least one great episode of Doctor Who I can recall. 42 the episode with the living sun.

 

The problem for me is that... This is Earth, the place that has been under seige by everything and has shown no glimmer of intelligence or self protection. Also after the Moon is an egg that pops out a creature that magically pops out an egg the size of itself the concept comes off more ridiculous than it would if it was merely another planet in the universe. After all the Doctor has been visiting the planet forever and didn't notice it had a spider ship core AND IT WAS ALIVE and the Moon was an egg. The Doctor has scanners and super tech and has never noticed any of these things. It strains credibility that all this things happen in such a confined area of the infinite nature of space.

 

I'm all in for it being a cyclical reaction to a solar event but granting the planet Earth sentience makes the episode where the Doctor is blase about its death when he and Rose see it burn somewhat cruel.

 

I think it may feel that way even though there has been at least three off world episodes (Into the Dalek, Time Heist, and Kill the Moon).  It feels as if it is earthbound this season because the writers have the show tethered to the Earth through Clara's "adventures".  No matter where or when she goes with the Doctor, it always comes back to her life on Earth.

 

 

3 out of 10 episodes not on Earth... 1 being on the moon of the planet Earth, 1 featuring all humanish interactions inside a Dalek and 1 featuring one alien. Did someone cut the set and makeup budget? For a show about a madman in a box travelling randomly through time and space he seems kind of unimaginative.

 

For a while now, I've been trying to convince myself that the show has not jumped the shark, it's just having a rough season

I think for me the moment the show jumped the shark was when the Doctor got a whole new regeneration set and didn't have much of a reaction. This is the biological clock ticking in the background of show since regenerations were introduced. Here's this powerful super intelligent alien that can regenerate after each death BUT he has a limited number and each death brings him closer to his permanent death and also each regeneration is a death of a piece of his soul, part of his personality gets overwritten in the process.

 

Now he has a magic new set of regenerations there's no real ticking clock any more in the background because the theme of the show appears to be nothing is a problem because time can be rewritten and all problems can be hand waved away whenever inconvenient. There's no real conflict on this show, the world is imperilled ... no it's not because magic trees/ magic solution. There's no personal conflict either, the Doctor has a tonne of new lives and even if he runs through these he'll probably just get some more. The only actual conflict appears to be the one between the Doctor and his companion who he can replace. Without an engaging conflict and actual personal or story based emotional stake there's no real reason to watch especially if problems get reset by a magic solution that erases consequences. If I wanted to watch a cartoon, I'd watch a cartoon. This is supposed to be sci fi or at least some variation of it. If this is supposed to be a kid's show with no depth than I'm not the demographic and I don't want to be.

Edited October 27, 2014 by wayne67

[Ripley68]

I liked this episode, even though I had some of the same questions....where were all the people?   I wouldn't be in my house, I'd be wandering around in awe.  I really liked Capaldi's doctor this epi, first time he is totally in his own. The end was too quaint and contrived.

 

I really liked the red headed girl - "it's there, on the board. Why do you keep asking me all the questions?"

 

the trees had nuts and flowers because they grew so fast, had no seasons.

[elle]

I think for me the moment the show jumped the shark was when the Doctor got a whole new regeneration set and didn't have much of a reaction. This is the biological clock ticking in the background of show since regenerations were introduced. Here's this powerful super intelligent alien that can regenerate after each death BUT he has a limited number and each death brings him closer to his permanent death and also each regeneration is a death of a piece of his soul, part of his personality gets overwritten in the process.

 

Now he has a magic new set of regenerations there's no real ticking clock any more in the background because the theme of the show appears to be nothing is a problem because time can be rewritten and all problems can be hand waved away whenever inconvenient. There's no real conflict on this show, the world is imperilled ... no it's not because magic trees/ magic solution. There's no personal conflict either, the Doctor has a tonne of new lives and even if he runs through these he'll probably just get some more. The only actual conflict appears to be the one between the Doctor and his companion who he can replace. Without an engaging conflict and actual personal or story based emotional stake there's no real reason to watch especially if problems get reset by a magic solution that erases consequences. If I wanted to watch a cartoon, I'd watch a cartoon. This is supposed to be sci fi or at least some variation of it. If this is supposed to be a kid's show with no depth than I'm not the demographic and I don't want to be.

Indeed.  For me, I felt that "The Day of the Doctor" ended the series.  What could have come after, we will never see. (the ghost shark probably ate it)

 

The show has always been tethered to Earth.  Even after the Doctor's exile on Earth ended, the first two plus years of the Tom Baker era had a lot of Earth-based stories, in its past and future.  But they weren't stories about Clara, her boring boyfriend, her boring students, and her boring life.

Earth based stories yes, but not tethered (or chained) to the earth like a hot air balloon ride.  You only can go so far, but it is safe because you will be pulled back to the ground when it is over.

 

 

 

I'm all in for it being a cyclical reaction to a solar event but granting the planet Earth sentience makes the episode where the Doctor is blase about its death when he and Rose see it burn somewhat cruel.

Just to clarify, do you mean Twelve being blase about Earth's demise in this past few episodes or do you refer to Nine's attitude?  I thought that Nine saw the event as momentous and was something very special to share with Rose.

 

Oh I just thought of how neat it would have been to see some of Jabe's people of The Forest of Cheem, the race of sentient, bipedal trees that are direct descendants of the Old Earth Trees we meet in "The End of the World".  Some hand waving explanation could have been given about time planes crossing over.  Doubt that idea would have even made it to paper, if someone had had the "whatsit" to write it.

 

If they're going to be on earth so much, they might as well cross paths with UNIT. They've been on NuWho already.

No, no, no; don't want to see them muck up that part of Who history too.

 

eta: As usual, any protests are too late.  Based on the preview for the next episode we will see UNIT again.

Edited October 28, 2014 by elle

[wayne67]

I'm all in for it being a cyclical reaction to a solar event but granting the planet Earth sentience makes the episode where the Doctor is blase about its death when he and Rose see it burn somewhat cruel.

 

Just to clarify, do you mean Twelve being blase about Earth's demise in this past few episodes or do you refer to Nine's attitude?  I thought that Nine saw the event as momentous and was something very special to share with Rose.

 

I refered to 9 showing Rose the death of her home planet. It seemed an odd outing and is retroactively more disturbing now.

 

12's blase attitude to everything lately is hard to fathom. After all this time protecting the Earth because of its significance to future events he seems indifferent to human suffering a lot of the time.

 

You make a great point about the plant species derived off Old Earth trees though it makes her death even sadder or possibly more meaningful. The female? was repaying a very old debt to the Doctor for the thousands of times he protected the Earth and her distant ancestors from annihilation.

[benteen]

I do think the show missed an opportunity but not having The Doctor on his last life.  Think about a show where the Doctor has to travel through time and space where he knows his next death will be his final one?  Now look, the Doctor is going to keep regenerating as long as the show is still successful so there was never any fear of that.  But Moffat took away this potentially fascinating storyline as quickly as he introduced it in The Time of the Doctor.  The Doctor would have to go about things slightly differently with no further regenerations.

Edited October 28, 2014 by benteen

[supposebly]

I don't really care whether the trees made scientific sense or not. This is Dr Who, after all, not actual science fiction. They've dragged a few planets all over the place a few seasons ago, so I'm fine with whatever they tell me is happening.

But it should make sense within the confines of the story. And it just didn't.

They at least needed an explanation where all the people and the cars went over night.

And how that girl got away from those wolves.

And how she got out of the museum when it was locked down.

And where the other zoo animals where.

And why a tiger would be scared away by flashlight in the middle of a sunny day.

And why I still watch this dreck.

[Llywela]

Now he has a magic new set of regenerations there's no real ticking clock any more in the background because the theme of the show appears to be nothing is a problem because time can be rewritten and all problems can be hand waved away whenever inconvenient. There's no real conflict on this show, the world is imperilled ... no it's not because magic trees/ magic solution. There's no personal conflict either, the Doctor has a tonne of new lives and even if he runs through these he'll probably just get some more. The only actual conflict appears to be the one between the Doctor and his companion who he can replace. Without an engaging conflict and actual personal or story based emotional stake there's no real reason to watch especially if problems get reset by a magic solution that erases consequences. If I wanted to watch a cartoon, I'd watch a cartoon. This is supposed to be sci fi or at least some variation of it. If this is supposed to be a kid's show with no depth than I'm not the demographic and I don't want to be.

Yes to everything you just said, but especially this. The show needs to find its edge again - real danger and real consequences. The kids can cope with that, they really can, they have all these years! I'm at the point where I really want the TARDIS to break so that it can't be steered properly again, because that introduces an automatic and very natural source of tension into the show that's been lost in recent years. If the Doctor can't control the TARDIS, there's immediate conflict and tension because anyone who comes with him can't guarantee ever getting home again, and there are several ways that can be played - either they have to make a choice and live with it, or they end up on board accidentally and have to live with it.

 

I mean, heck, the Hartnell era had no budget or effects and they still managed to imagine a completely new environment for each new adventure, exploring the past, the future, alien worlds, with relationships between the characters that evolved as they went along. It isn't that hard. You just have to be prepared to cut ties with present-day Earth and the companion's home life - and it is more than possible to develop a character without having them go home after every adventure! Necessary, in fact, at this point, because that tie is holding all the characters back this season.

 

I refered to 9 showing Rose the death of her home planet. It seemed an odd outing and is retroactively more disturbing now.

To be honest, I thought it was weird at the time!

 

I do think the show missed an opportunity but not having The Doctor on his last life.  Think about a show where the Doctor has to travel through time and space where he knows his next death will be his final one?  Now look, the Doctor is going to keep regenerating as long as the show is still successful so there was never any fear of that.  But Moffat took away this potentially fascinating storyline as quickly as he introduced it in The Time of the Doctor.  The Doctor would have to go about things slightly differently with no further regenerations.

Tell me about it. The Doctor approaching the end of his lives is a storyline full of potential - completely wasted in a single episode.

 

I've seen a lot of lovely meta floating around on Timblr about the Doctor's 900 years on Trenzalore and how it probably influences the way he is now, but it's all fanwank to explain something that hasn't been explored on-screen. The 900 years on Trenzalore is the Moffat-era equivalent of the Time War for Davies - a massive event in the Doctor's life that took place pretty much off-screen (those 900 years were just a montage, over in less than a minute), which can be used to justify any changes in personality. I didn't like it in the Davies era and I don't like it here. If something is going to happen that will have a huge impact on a character, I want to see it in enough detail to understand the changes it causes. You don't get to say, 'oh look, it's 900 years later and stuff has happened that will make him behave differently' - that's the stuff of the worst kind of fanfiction.

[darkestboy]

I thought it was okay. Quite nice in some parts and the kids were alright but we've had better though this series.

I wish Clara would just set both the Doctor and Danny straight as well. This lying to both of them is pointless.

Forest looked beautiful, nice use of wolves and tigers too.

Liked Maebh as well, character wise.

The Missy stuff was okay, at least the finale starts now, 7/10

Edited October 28, 2014 by darkestboy