S01.E03: Long Long Time

[rwlevin]

9 hours ago, iMonrey said:

There was an episode of the SyFy series "The Magicians" called A Life in the Day that this episode reminded me of. It was a similarly haunting and poignant story of two characters that spanned a lifetime together in under an hour.

I was thinking the exact same thing!

[paramitch]

It's very moving to note that the show has added an opening title card honoring the loss of Annie Wersching (Tess in the original TLOU videogame), also known for "24," "Vampire Diaries," and many more. She was beautiful and talented, and lost far too soon.

[Danny Franks]

2 hours ago, paramitch said:

It's very moving to note that the show has added an opening title card honoring the loss of Annie Wersching (Tess in the original TLOU videogame), also known for "24," "Vampire Diaries," and many more. She was beautiful and talented, and lost far too soon.

The voice cast of the game did a playthrough a couple of years ago, and Annie Wersching was so much fun on that (they all were). I was sure I'd read that she had a role in the show as well, but perhaps her illness meant she couldn't film and they had to recast.

[Lady Whistleup]

My favorite detail about Bill and Frank was the gentle way Bill handed Frank his pills, with the little names and descriptions. Just showed how much love and trust was there.

[conquistador]

Not only was the episode brilliant in itself, but I think it really benefitted from subverting a lot of genre tropes. If this was the Walking Dead, Bill and Frank would have fought each-other and eventually the house would have exploded. If this was Cormac McCarthy’s the Road, raiders would have successfully breached the fences and killed one or both of them horrifically while scavenging their properties. I was very nervous for these scenarios, but what we got was basically best possible outcome in this universe: dying happy on their own terms, after many years spent together. It was incredibly satisfying to watch.

[Raachel2008]

On 2/1/2023 at 12:23 PM, Whimsy said:

That was me. And, I wasn’t complaining, necessarily, about how much swearing there was but just that it wasn’t organic sounding. Swear words seem to be just put randomly into sentences that make it sound clunky and unnatural. I noticed it a few times this episode as well. The one that stands out to me the most was when they walked into Bill and Frank’s house and Ellie swore as if something weird and shocking had happened, but at that time they just had walked into a quiet, yet nice house. Nothing to react so bizarrely over. I don’t remember exactly what she said, but I remember being taken out of the scene. To me, it just feels like the characters in games swear a lot … because… and it was “edgy” to have a young girl in the game swear so they are making sure Ellie in the show swears a lot.  I’d rather it sound natural and the swears make sense to the context of the scene, but whatever lol. 

Oh, but I find it perfectly reasonable that Bill and Frank's house elicited that reaction. It is a pretty, nice, lovely, well-cared house, with perfect wallpaper, shinny hardwood floor, paintings and fine china on the walls. That is Versailles for a kid who was raised in an orphanage in a QZ post the end of the world. You bet Ellie has never seen a house like that. I doubt there are houses like that back in the QZ except for the high ranked fascists.

What really bothers me is that she swears all the time, in all situations; it is Jack Bauer's 'damnit!', except all the time and it doesn't flows organically for me. And believe me, I swear a lot, and I do know that kids swear a lot.

On 2/1/2023 at 9:53 AM, Alric the Red said:

While disagreeing with Juan Barquin--the author of this review--I see his point, his initial gut reaction.  However, I believe if he stops making a comparison to the game, he'll permit himself the immersion into this story, not the one he thinks the creators should be telling.  Had the writers not gone this route, the performance would have been as stiff as it was in the video game.  And I can take him to task on a thing or two.

Not only that but Barquin claims that the narrative was bland and dated, and that the story was told on HBO didn't have any narrative purpose and was a thematic burial "in a world where more and more nuanced and complicated queer characters come to life every day".

I honestly cannot with that, because the fuck, man? You show to gay men in their late 40's and then in their 60's and how come that is not nuanced? How many times do you see middle-aged-to-old men on TV in a relationshp, having sex or any kind of intimacy? Ageism is real. Representation matters. How many times do you see a paranoid gun hoarder antigovernment gay survivalist being this nuanced? A virgin one, by the way? How can anyone who watches a lot of TV write that this story does not belong to 2023? Does he really think we are better than 2003  because we now also tell stories of trans, pan, aces, and other queer people that were 'invisible' on TV in 2003, so we should not tell more 'normal' gay stories? How come showing love, and finding purpose, and living not only surviving, does not belong to the series? 

AND FWIW, that entire review could have been written without all those spoilers. For real. 

Edited February 3, 2023 by Raachel2008

[Capricasix]

I’ve been listening to HBO’s official show podcast with Troy Baker, Craig Mazin, and Neil Druckmann (it’s really good btw - I recommend it). In the very first podcast episode, they discussed the fact that TLOU is at its heart a love story. And we’ve seen that from the beginning - Joel’s love for his daughter, and then his love for Tess (even if he doesn’t outright acknowledge it). So, to the point of the article, why shouldn’t Bill and Frank’s love story be part of it? It showed that amongst the apocalyptic horror, love still abides, and as others have said, people can go on *living*, rather than merely surviving.

On another note, I’d just like to say how much I appreciate all of the thoughtful posts and discussion here. That’s what I like about this forum - so many of you eloquently articulate my thoughts in a way that I never seem to be able to. So thanks for that! ❤️

[Tachi Rocinante]

I'm just a wee bit torn.

While the episode was beautifully acted, shot, and scored, it did very little to advance the plot other than to tell the story of two guys who didn't contribute too much (except after they died) and won't be around. We know way more about them than we do Ellie.

Enjoyed seeing Tess again.  Anna Torv is great.

The only snark I have is even if that was Offerman's real hair and beard, it looked like high school play makeup.

[conquistador]

1 hour ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

I'm just a wee bit torn.

While the episode was beautifully acted, shot, and scored, it did very little to advance the plot other than to tell the story of two guys who didn't contribute too much (except after they died) and won't be around. We know way more about them than we do Ellie.

We had to sacrifice a bit of plot for the main characters, but instead we got an hour of unforgettable quality television. It’s more than fair trade. 
 

But there was actually quite a bit of value for the plot too, it was just mostly relegated to the last ten minutes or so (changes to Joel’s motivations, the dynamic between him and Ellie, access to vehicle and weapons).

[watch2much]

my favorite line of this episode was when Frank told Bill he traded one of his guns for the packet of seeds and when Bill started to react, Frank said "it was just one of the little ones".  You see what each brings to the relationship...Bill protects, Frank expands their life.

[paigow]

47 minutes ago, watch2much said:

my favorite line of this episode was when Frank told Bill he traded one of his guns for the packet of seeds

Seed Man: Ya got the gun?

Frank: All clean and loaded. See for yourself. [hands gun over]

Seed Man: Nice!  [shoots Frank, drives away]

[Unclejosh]

9 hours ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

The only snark I have is even if that was Offerman's real hair and beard, it looked like high school play makeup.

Pretty sure it was make up. Offerman showed up with short hair and clean shaven which you can see in the Inside the Episode feature after.  Maybe because he was a recast?

[Tachi Rocinante]

That makes more sense.

[paramitch]

On 2/2/2023 at 3:07 PM, Lady Whistleup said:

My favorite detail about Bill and Frank was the gentle way Bill handed Frank his pills, with the little names and descriptions. Just showed how much love and trust was there.

I love that detail (also loved the way Bill is setting them out, going, "Let's see, two little white ones, one orangey one," etc. It was so real and funny, speaking as someone who has been a caregiver to very ill family.

Meanwhile, I definitely recommend the official podcast on this episode, which is basically a commentary track through the entire episode with Craig Mazin and Neil Druckmann, with host Troy Baker.
 

Some of my favorite details include the little 'cairn' of rocks Joel builds beside the stream, as a little memorial for Tess, and how even while Ellie is saying, "It's not my fault so don't blame me," she is also subtly admitting, "I DO feel like it's my fault and I DO blame myself."

I also enjoyed the confirmation that Frank is very definitely trying to charm Bill right away, which makes sense and doesn't detract from the genuine romance they end up sharing. Mazin points out that if we watch that initial confrontation when Frank is just out of the pit, he promises not to tell any hoboes about Bill's lunch, and Bill is visibly caught off-balance by Frank. He blinks, and Frank gives this very tiny smile -- like, he sees past Bill's armor right there, and knows him.

I also love that Mazin in particular wanted to set forth an exploration of not just love, but of middle-aged love, and of what it's like to love someone a long, long time. So, through the downs as well as the ups, beyond the initial flush of romance, etc.

I also appreciate the showrunners noting how hard they worked to incorporate a bona fide gay male POV into the story -- from several of the creative team members (director Peter Hoar, the editor, and several others are openly gay), to Murray Bartlett (and they really wanted to cast at least one openly gay actor in the role), etc. 

They also talked about the chance Frank takes at the piano -- the risk when he touches Bill. And Mazin also has this lovely reveal about the importance of "Long, Long Time" as Bill's song. Bill has given up. The song is the one expression of the yearning he has buried.

ETA: Bartlett made a lovely point in another interview when asked "Would these two men have ever gotten together in the real world?" And he answered (paraphrasing), "Maybe not, but maybe this episode is also a reminder that we are often too quick to dismiss potential love interests who might actually turn out to be perfect for us, like Bill was for Frank."

Also, I glimpsed that Bill recommended some kind of wine pairing in the end of his letter, but it's grimmer (and funnier) than that. The complete letter follows below:

Edited February 4, 2023 by paramitch
Added a thought

[giovannif7]

Nick Offerman and Murray Bartlett named Performers of the Week by TVLine for their work in The Last of Us Season 1 Episode 3.

[mledawn]

I like how it looks as if Bill started to print Tess and changed to Joel.

[possibilities]

I 've had the damn song stuck in my head for days and it's driving me crazy. 

[Maximona]

On 2/1/2023 at 8:56 PM, rwlevin said:

There was an episode of the SyFy series "The Magicians" called A Life in the Day that this episode reminded me of.

Me too!  😀

[Capricasix]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

I 've had the damn song stuck in my head for days and it's driving me crazy. 

Me too 😄

[giovannif7]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

I 've had the damn song stuck in my head for days and it's driving me crazy. 

18 minutes ago, Capricasix said:

Me too 😄

From the beginning, Ronstadt has been the queen of the heartbreaking ballad that stays with you and haunts your thoughts and memories. I can think of far worse things to have stuck in your head than a lament this sad and beautiful... 😭😭😭

 

[Artsda]

That episode was brilliant. 

[rwlevin]

On 2/3/2023 at 7:40 PM, Unclejosh said:

Pretty sure it was make up. Offerman showed up with short hair and clean shaven which you can see in the Inside the Episode feature after.  Maybe because he was a recast?

He probably filmed this right after or during A League of Their Own. That’s the only thing that I’ve ever seen him clean-shaven in and I read that he almost didn’t take this part because of a prior commitment and A League of Their Own is the only other show he’s been in recently that I can recall.

[Capricasix]

On 2/4/2023 at 3:43 PM, giovannif7 said:

From the beginning, Ronstadt has been the queen of the heartbreaking ballad that stays with you and haunts your thoughts and memories. I can think of far worse things to have stuck in your head than a lament this sad and beautiful... 😭😭😭

 

I was a child in the late ‘70s and early ‘80s, and I remember my parents having one or two Linda Ronstadt LPs. “Blue Bayou” and “Ooh Baby Baby” stand out in my memory.

[Anela]

28 minutes ago, Capricasix said:

I was a child in the late ‘70s and early ‘80s, and I remember my parents having one or two Linda Ronstadt LPs. “Blue Bayou” and “Ooh Baby Baby” stand out in my memory.

My mum loved Linda Ronstadt. I was a toddler in the 70s, and remember loving Blue Bayou. 

[paramitch]

On 2/3/2023 at 9:28 AM, paigow said:

Seed Man: Ya got the gun?

Frank: All clean and loaded. See for yourself. [hands gun over]

Seed Man: Nice!  [shoots Frank, drives away]

Frank was never in danger. He traded the gun to Tess, who was safe, and it's implied she and Joel returned many times over the ensuing 13 years (we even see a brief painting of Joel by Frank).

And when Bill is shot, his last words (he fears anyway) are, "Go to Joel. Joel will protect you." He trusts Joel enough at this point to keep his beloved Frank safe.

[CarpeFelis]

On 1/29/2023 at 11:15 PM, Coptop77 said:

Loved this episode so much! So happy to see White Lotus Armand again, he is incredible in every role. My only beef at all would be that Joel hasn’t really aged in 20 yrs, and he was old enough to have a teen daughter when the pandemic hit so he should have aged more like Frank and Bill by the time they died. But honestly the show is fantastic and Joel is foxy as can be so I’m happy getting lost in the episodes. 

He went from 36 to 56. Frank and Bill were apparently both quite a bit older than Joel. Also, I thought age 36 Joel looked older than 36 but age 56 Joel looks realistic (same age my husband is) so I agree, he didn’t appear to have aged as much in 20 years as Bill and Frank had.

ETA: Through most of the episode it was bugging me that I’d seen Frank before but couldn’t think where. Then eventually it hit me: OMG, it’s Armond from The White Lotus! I think it was the beard that threw me.

Edited February 6, 2023 by CarpeFelis

[Me from ME]

Quote

OMG, it’s Armond from The White Lotus! I think it was the beard that threw me.

Amazing that you thought you recognized the actor. I never would have because of the hair and beard as well as the difference in mannerisms. (I know, good acting.)

My bf is a huge fan of science fiction and zombie books and movies. I am not but watched this episode because I had heard good reviews of it. I thought it was a well crafted and acted episode. The bf is not a gamer but had watched the first two episodes. Throughout the hour he was saying that he failed to see how that story arc advanced the plot. Can anyone elucidate?

[diebartdie]

Well, read this thread I think a lot of people have done a great job of explaining but at this point I would say...this is a brand new TV series that is based on a video game but not beholden to that video game. Since it's a brand new TV series, if you've been enjoying it so far, just keep watching and draw your own conclusions at the end of the season. Cheers!

[Nashville]

Disclaimer: outside of some vague memories of its first ads plus reading the occasional referential comment in forums such as this, I have no knowledge of the source game for this series whatsoever.

That being said - a few observations:

1. One of the best-handled pieces of television I’ve seen in years; powerful, economical and deftly handled. In under an hour of total dedicated screen time this episode told the story of a relationship more completely than some movies do in 2+ hours.  Award-worthy direction and performance.
2. My favorite line: “Not on the strawberries!”  🤣
3. I’ve heard (not so much here) some voices of discontent about devoting the lion’s share of the episode to exposition on two essentially NPC background characters in what will be their one appearance in the series - and not only could I not disagree more, I think that’s a significant point of delineation between the two different media types (video game vs. TV series), and one which should be exploited.

The primary focus of video games is on advancing story line flow at a desired pace; in such a dynamic use-them-and-lose-them environment, NPCs are handy conveniences - the odd extra detail in the game’s wallpaper, and occasionally useful for recharges/healing/information/etc.  

This primary is not that of the TV series, though; TV’s focus is to promote viewer identification (and, by extension, customer brand loyalty) with “favorites” among the series characters, and this requires much more well-developed characters, both main and NPC.  In answer to THAT need, occasionally stepping outside the main story line - and demonstrating this one odd irregularity in the game’s wallpaper, when you look closely, is just the outward face of an entirety of a life - would be a good thing to do.

 

On 1/30/2023 at 6:04 PM, aghst said:

Couples are always sentimental about "their song" but has one song been an aphrodisiac like that?

Only in the movies and TV right?

Depends on the song - and the couple.

 

On 1/30/2023 at 6:04 PM, aghst said:

I only know Ronstadt's hits somewhat.  Never had one of her albums so I wouldn't know this relatively-obscure song.

Not sure how 12 weeks on the Billboard Top 100 translates to “relatively obscure” - unless, of course, that directly translates to “Well, *I* didn’t know about it”….  😆  But yeah, it was big back in its day.

 

On 2/1/2023 at 10:44 AM, iMonrey said:

There was an episode of the SyFy series "The Magicians" called A Life in the Day that this episode reminded me of. It was a similarly haunting and poignant story of two characters that spanned a lifetime together in under an hour.

Glad I wasn’t the only person to remember that episode.

[Me from ME]

Nashville, I really appreciated your reply. Thank you for clearly explaining the different focus used in video game vs tv show.

I am not a fan of the zombie genre nor of the video game but was curious because there had been a lot of positive comments about this episode. Most of this thread was devoted to how good the acting was and how well the love story was told in a single episode.

A post on the preceding page alludes to episode three as not furthering the  plot but there were no comments on it. I could see that if the entire series is basically about love and lost love this episode is an exploration of having a rich and fulfilling life within a relatively short time frame.

[possibilities]

There were actually quite a few posts about advancing the plot. Joel got his car and this enabled him and Ellie to head west, for instance. They could have given him one another way, but as far as "nothing advanced" in the plot goes, that's just not true.

 

[Me from ME]

Good point about Joel obtaining the car with Bill's blessing. It shows Bill's personal growth from being a prepper who hoarded materials to a more self actualized guy as a result of his relationship with Frank. When he no longer had need for the things he had used to keep them safe he knew Joel could make good use of them. 

[conquistador]

19 hours ago, Me from ME said:

A post on the preceding page alludes to episode three as not furthering the  plot but there were no comments on it. I could see that if the entire series is basically about love and lost love this episode is an exploration of having a rich and fulfilling life within a relatively short time frame.

I commented on it on this very page. See below:

 

On 2/3/2023 at 5:20 PM, conquistador said:

We had to sacrifice a bit of plot for the main characters, but instead we got an hour of unforgettable quality television. It’s more than fair trade. 
 

But there was actually quite a bit of value for the plot too, it was just mostly relegated to the last ten minutes or so (changes to Joel’s motivations, the dynamic between him and Ellie, access to vehicle and weapons).

The importance of Bill's letter especially should not be underestimated in the grand scheme of things. And that's two decades of backstory to reach to that conclusion, all told in the space of one episode.

[Kel Varnsen]

Normally I hate when shows devote a whole episode to outside characters you have never seen before and will never see again, but this really worked. We got a ton of backstory about how society fell apart. Plus I love that Bill was a legit survivalist, not just some nutjob with a bunch of guns. He knew how to garden l and to butcher animals, how to set up traps and even how to install gas piping and video equipment. The only minor thing that bugged me was when the raiders showed up that he was just standing in the middle of the street shooting at them. With his level of prep I would have thought he would have set up a bunch of shielded sniper areas or at least have body armour. I did like the twist that in the next scene it was Frank in the wheel chair when they got closer though. 

Also weirdly Nick Offerman was also in a single episode of the first season of Deadwood and he also took his clothes off there. And thinking back he also died at the end of that episode too.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Kel Varnsen

[Crazydoxielady]

On 1/30/2023 at 2:36 PM, Msample said:

I must say I was a bit confused trying to figure out where Joel and Ellie were in the first scene, in that little wooded gorge. I was shocked when the screep cap said "10 miles west of Boston ) . Um, no. That looked like it was shot out west, LOL. 

The Cumberland Farms was a nice region specific call out. Only thing missing was a Dunkin nearby. 

I live 15 miles south of Boston. Hubby and I laughed and laughed at that scene.

I am drinking my blueberry dunks now as I write this, lol. This episode cued all the tears last night and reverberated through my morning today. It was heartbreaking, uplifting, and beautiful all at once. So tender. So raw. Cue to Emmy award for best episode.  

 

[Cheezwiz]

On 1/30/2023 at 11:36 AM, Msample said:

I was shocked when the screep cap said "10 miles west of Boston ) . Um, no. That looked like it was shot out west, LOL. 

For such a good show, that was laughably bad. It was clearly shot somewhere in the West (Rocky Mountains or/Cascades/Sierra region). I know New England has mountains, but not those kinds of mountains, definitely not that kind of foliage,  and definitely not 10 miles outside of Boston!

[Cheezwiz]

Alas, I was spoilered about this episode before I was able to get to it, but I still enjoyed it. I honestly didn't recognize Murray Bartlett w/o his Aussie accent. As expected, nice performances from him and Nick Offerman. It was also nice to see Tess & Joel appear as part of the flashback sequence. My favourite scene was the strawberry toast. loved the little world they created for themselves, and that they went out their way.

Still really, REALLY hating Ellie. As others have pointed out, perhaps she's supposed to be not just an obnoxious teen, but also a bit of a sociopath?

[Uncle JUICE]

On 1/29/2023 at 10:24 PM, Starchild said:

Never played the game, so I don't know if Bill and Frank's story was shown, or if it was just told in backstory exposition, but...

OMG that was one of the sweetest, saddest love stories I've ever seen.

A nearly 20-year realistic-feeling relationship between two fully realized characters told in just over an hour.

This episode must win all the awards.

Maybe someone has pointed this out subsequently, but it wasn't in an hour. It was closer to thirty five minutes, somehow. THe hour would include all the Joel stuff that happens afterward, and Frank doesn't show up until well after we meet Bill. It's an insane display of unbelievably efficient storytelling, the kind of achievement that is so profound and so rare that it makes me feel like a terrible writer, because how could I ever accomplish anything like this!

[Starchild]

The sad thing is, this is the lowest-rated episode on IMDB. I despair for humanity.

[Uncle JUICE]

I wonder how much of that has to do with people who've played the game vs. people who've watched the show. I've never played the game (not a huge 1p shooter guy and I definitely am not a zombies guy), so this is my only exposure to the story. 

[Starchild]

I expect it's entirely due to the action-focused gamers who wanted the show to adhere to the gameplay as to-the-letter as possible. 

I've seen very few non-gamers who denigrate this episode. On the contrary, it seems to have very quickly entered the pantheon of best episodes of TV from any show anytime.

[cardigirl]

8 hours ago, Starchild said:

The sad thing is, this is the lowest-rated episode on IMDB. I despair for humanity.

 

8 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I wonder how much of that has to do with people who've played the game vs. people who've watched the show. I've never played the game (not a huge 1p shooter guy and I definitely am not a zombies guy), so this is my only exposure to the story. 

 

37 minutes ago, Starchild said:

I expect it's entirely due to the action-focused gamers who wanted the show to adhere to the gameplay as to-the-letter as possible. 

I've seen very few non-gamers who denigrate this episode. On the contrary, it seems to have very quickly entered the pantheon of best episodes of TV from any show anytime.

Not quite.  I liked the episode very much, but felt like it was too idyllic. I mean, sure, Frank and Bill were attacked by raiders (we only saw that one attack) and never seemed to get close to being infected by roaming "zombies." The one fight we're shown is when Frank wants to use some of the resources to fix up the shops and paint the houses on their street so it looks nice. Bill still believes that they could run out of supplies, Frank doesn't care. 

And they had lots and lots of stuff. More than enough for them to have invited Tess and Joel to stay with them. I've wondered why they didn't.

Well, Bill never trusted them, I guess. But it sure seems like they offered some value to at least Frank, by giving friendship, strawberry seeds, etc. Joel even lays out what they can offer them when he and Bill are left at the table alone. 

So maybe the only way to survive is to close yourself off, and not offer help to others. To only focus on that one other person. And when that person is gone, it's time to die. 

 

[Dev F]

49 minutes ago, Starchild said:

I expect it's entirely due to the action-focused gamers who wanted the show to adhere to the gameplay as to-the-letter as possible.

There's a much more straightforward explanation. Here's the ratings distribution for the series as a whole:

And here's the distribution for this episode:

In other words, a bunch of homophobes just review-bombed this episode with 1-star ratings.

[Starchild]

I didn't want to be the first to say it lol

[Nashville]

4 hours ago, Dev F said:

In other words, a bunch of homophobes just review-bombed this episode with 1-star ratings.

Note the look of shocked surprise which totally failed to cross my face. 🫥

Good data pulls, btw.

[30 Helens]

I’m very late to the party, so at this point I’m probably speaking only to myself. (But that’s ok, I’m used to it— I’m married.)

Although I’ve seen it described as a stand-alone/ bottle episode, I think this episode is anything but. It may not do much to advance the plot in a literal way, but it brings focus to what has been lost in the world these characters inhabit. A loving touch… the sweet taste of a simple strawberry…familiar, soul-stirring music… and the time to indulge in any small thing that brings joy… that is what has been stripped from the other characters, in their bleak surroundings and never-ending struggle to survive.

The life Bill and Frank have built is not extraordinary by real-life standards,  so the fact that it seems idyllic in this setting is precisely the point. While other episodes focus on the How of the struggle, this one emphasizes the Why. In a subconscious way, I think it will add depth to our understanding of future episodes, and in that way it definitely serves the plot.

As an aside, I also appreciated the fact that the episode centers on two men, in a very matter of fact way, with no fanfare or explanation. Even five years ago, in a mainstream show like this, Frank and Bill would certainly have been Frank and Betty. The fact the their relationship just was (as Frank and Betty’s would be), while also serving to exemplify the beauty of normal human connection, made this episode doubly great. Fuck the homophobes.

This episode is actually the reason I started watching. I had no intention of watching yet another zombie show, and certainly not one based on a video game. But the massive press about this one episode got me curious. Unfortunately, it also meant I was spoiled for the ending, but even without the full impact of that, I found it deeply touching. So I’m glad I tuned in, because the rest of the show has been pretty awesome, too, and I will certainly keep watching. I may even feel the need to chime in with some more 3-weeks-late observations.

[Uncle JUICE]

1 minute ago, 30 Helens said:

Although I’ve seen it described as a stand-alone/ bottle episode, I think this episode is anything but. It may not do much to advance the plot in a literal way, but it brings focus to what has been lost in the world these characters inhabit. A loving touch… the sweet taste of a simple strawberry…familiar, soul-stirring music… and the time to indulge in any small thing that brings joy… that is what has been stripped from the other characters, in their bleak surroundings and never-ending struggle to survive.

Among the number of good points in your post, this one sticks out to me. I agree that this isn't a bottle episode; the Bill and Frank stuff goes on for around 35 minutes. Everything else is Joel and Ellie. The remains in the pit, the stop at Cumberland farms, there's plenty of "current day" plot happening, it's just that the Bill and Frank story is so effectively told that it SEEMS like a lot more. I didn't think at all about what you describe though, and it's so true about how 'normal' their lives are, but when viewed through the prism of their world, it's a devastating look at what humanity loses. Glad you picked it up, I'm like you, no zombie shows (fuck off, Walking Dead), no video game exposure, I watched it because I like Pedro Pascal and Sunday nights have been slow since HotD ended. 

[Danny Franks]

On 2/14/2023 at 11:26 PM, Dev F said:

There's a much more straightforward explanation. Here's the ratings distribution for the series as a whole:

And here's the distribution for this episode:

In other words, a bunch of homophobes just review-bombed this episode with 1-star ratings.

Unfortunately, TLOU isn't new to this kind of review bombing. TLOU Part 2 got incredibly amounts of hate from the same segment of gamers that will have review-bombed this episode. 

It still went on to win more game awards than any other game had, and is an incredible rich, deep and satisfying game to play, with a story that forces you to think about right and wrong, revenge and justice, and the fact that the hero of one person's story can be the villain of another's. Some gamers could not handle that sort of complexity in their black and white worlds. Also, there were queer people in it.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Danny Franks

[Dobian]

On 2/19/2023 at 3:45 AM, Danny Franks said:

It still went on to win more game awards than any other game had, and is an incredible rich, deep and satisfying game to play, with a story that forces you to think about right and wrong, revenge and justice, and the fact that the hero of one person's story can be the villain of another's. Some gamers could not handle that sort of complexity in their black and white worlds. Also, there were queer people in it.

Eh...there were a lot of legitimate criticisms about the narrative approach to the game, the character Abby, and the storytelling.  It wasn't just that people didn't like gays or couldn't handle a complex story.

As for this episode, it was a nice story and beautifully told.  I think a lot of the reviews I have read that it was one of the greatest episodes of television ever are completely over the top.  I can think of dozens of great episodes from iconic shows that were better than this.  I can nitpick things like Bill shooting from the middle of the street instead of from cover, which got him shot.  Downing all that Vicodin and having a nice conversation before going to the bedroom to die, when they should have been passing out at the table.  Starting the flashback that dominates the episode when we never encounter the character in the present through Joel and Ellie was kind of awkward.  But I can hand wave those things.  The main story of Bill and Frank was lovingly told.

[nodorothyparker]

This episode was gorgeous and Nick Offermann went well above and beyond anything I would have guessed he had in him. I love when this genre slows down to consider the difference between surviving and actually living and finding reasons to go on living when everything you knew is gone. That's what I find so interesting about end of the world stories. It's not about zombies for me. It's never been about zombies or gore and special effects. It was also a hoot to finally see a prepper (a 2003 era prepper nonetheless) on one of these shows who was actually competent and knew what he was doing instead of falling apart 30 seconds after he was called on to actually put those prepping skills to the test.

At the same time, I get the criticism this is mostly a lift-out story that doesn't do much to advance the larger plot. So mostly what we learned is how Ellie got her gun and where the pickup came from. It also doesn't do much to sell me on the main pairing. The scene of the four sitting around the table made me irritated all over again that the only adult woman was killed off in the second episode and we're stuck with the tired reluctant surrogate daddy/teenage miracle girl trope. It also would have been nice to get more than a single scene to show Joel's connection to this couple.

The little bits of worldbuilding continue to be great. The practicalities of scoring a box of tampons, the joy of a hot shower when it may have been awhile, or just the wonder of riding in a truck or contemplating flying when the world hasn't afforded that since before she was born.