S05.E04: Annus Horribilis

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Between a fire at Windsor Castle and tensions in her children’s marriages, the Queen commemorates and reassesses her 40 years on the throne.

Dropping on Wednesday, November 9, 2022.

[Roseanna]

The writer seems to love Margaret - why else she was given so much screen-time. I am really tired of her self-pity. It was not her sister who robbed her of Peter, but she herself loved her position more (irl - see history section). Many people must make much harder choices and don't accuse others for them.

[dubbel zout]

Before Andrew was announced to the queen, I was thinking, Who's this guy? Not even the pictures on the mantel gave me a clue, heh. Fergie really has been nothing in this show. I think we got about three minutes of her last season, and in this one we see her hugging Diana and that's about it.

[andromeda331]

I wish the series shown Diana and Fergie's friendship. Along with Anne's wedding, attempted kidnapping and divorce. They really hadn't done much with Anne when they could have.

I'm tired of Margaret's crap and blaming everything on Elizabeth. While what she said was correct it would have worked better coming from Charles if they hadn't made him such a jerk. He's in a marriage where no one is happy. She knows it but doesn't really care. She did get to pick the person she wanted to marry. Had they did the Camille-Charles break up in season three better it really would have worked having him give that speech. The monarchy isn't going to end because the Prince of Wales gets a divorce. I really wish they had let Charles and Diana divorce in the 80s when it was clear the marriage was over.

 Margaret could have married Peter she chose not to. She wasn't willing to give up all the perks she got being a Princess (In know IRL she was no longer interested). She doesn't do anything. Every season we have her blaming her sister for something and doing nothing. 

I do like Elizabeth speaking up to her mother. Although I wish Philip hadn't helped. She is part of the problem the monarchy won't modernize. 

Edited November 10, 2022 by andromeda331

[Conotocarious]

I’m so sick of the obligatory Margaret episode. They are all the same in every season. Same whiny Margaret.

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I'm tired of Margaret's crap and blaming everything on Elizabeth. While what she said was correct it would have worked better coming from Charles if they hadn't made him such a jerk. He's in a marriage where no one is happy. She knows it but doesn't really care. She did get to pick the person she wanted to marry. Had they did the Camille-Charles break up in season three better it really would have worked having him give that speech. The monarchy isn't going to end because the Prince of Wales gets a divorce. I really wish they had let Charles and Diana divorce in the 80s when it was clear the marriage was over.

 Margaret could have married Peter she chose not to. She wasn't willing to give up all the perks she got being a Princess (In know IRL she was no longer interested). She doesn't do anything. Every season we have her blaming her sister for something and doing nothing.

I think that the writer forgets the basic fact: things change in time. It was quite different, especially for a woman, in 50ies, 60ies, 80ies and in 2000ies, not only about sexual morality, marriage, cohabiting and divorce, divorce, but also studying, working and raising kids. 

Unfortunately, although Charles was young in the 60ies, he was taught the old-fashioned morality, first "sow wild oats" and then settle down with an inexperienced girl by Mountbatten. And while people lived together, that wasn't possible for Charles and Diana.

[andromeda331]

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I think that the writer forgets the basic fact: things change in time. It was quite different, especially for a woman, in 50ies, 60ies, 80ies and in 2000ies, not only about sexual morality, marriage, cohabiting and divorce, divorce, but also studying, working and raising kids. 

Unfortunately, although Charles was young in the 60ies, he was taught the old-fashioned morality, first "sow wild oats" and then settle down with an inexperienced girl by Mountbatten. And while people lived together, that wasn't possible for Charles and Diana.

It really wasn't. They were far too different with different interests and needs plus Charles was in love with someone else. It was never going to work. The one good thing about the 80s and 90s was they didn't have to stick it out like couples in the past did. The church and people had changed their minds about divorce. If it had been like that in the 1880s Edward and Alexandra would have divorce she would have bailed. I'm sure a lot other marriages would have ended too.

[BloomsburyRez]

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Unfortunately, although Charles was young in the 60ies, he was taught the old-fashioned morality, first "sow wild oats" and then settle down with an inexperienced girl by Mountbatten. And while people lived together, that wasn't possible for Charles and Diana.

There’s enough evidence to suggest that was the advice Mountbatten gave Charles. Cynically his advice a generation earlier to his nephew was undoubtedly keep that really young girl into you and propose as soon as possible. 

[dubbel zout]

If Diana had been a different sort of person, living separate lives while staying married could have worked, as Philip said. Because she and Charles were magic together when they turned on the razzle dazzle. But Diana wanted love and a real partnership, something Charles was unable/unwilling to give her. (Making no judgment on what kind of marriage is preferable; it's whatever the parties agree on, IMO.) The marriage was doomed from the start, as we've always noted.

[Ellaria]

Lesley Manville is brilliant as Margaret. Loved seeing Timothy Dalton.

I enjoyed this episode because, despite so much of it being known, it still felt “new.” Perhaps it is the cast. Imelda Staunton and Jonathan Pryce inhabit their characters  with weariness, a feeling that they have playing their “royal roles” for much too long.

I’m glad that not every minute in this episode was devoted to the failing marriages of Elizabeth’s children. The subtle undercurrent of those issues was well balanced.

Unlike last season, I’m not bothered by the fact that I remember many of these stories playing out in real life. I also don’t care about what has been fictionalized. The acting is excellent and I am being drawn into every scene.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Ellaria Sand

[peridot]

I liked this episode.  Spending time with Peter again made all of those repressed hurts come up again.  Based on the show's history, the monarchy did drive Peter away.  Margaret must have felt so angry that the Queen's daughter could do what she could not.  The scene at the end where Margaret and Elizabeth were on the phone together was sweet.

This episode was quite the contrast to when Elizabeth and Charles were in Wales -"no one cares what you think". 

I was surprised to find out that the castle wasn't insured.  Is that true for all of the castles?

[dubbel zout]

45 minutes ago, peridot said:

I was surprised to find out that the castle wasn't insured.  Is that true for all of the castles?

I bet the contents are insured, but the buildings themselves aren't. I'd think they're somewhat uninsurable, due to their historical importance.

This episode didn't really go into it, but they saved a lot because there was an evacuation plan in place. I remember seeing on the news that the fire fighters were working to put out the flames while castle workers were bringing out chairs and tables, paintings, etc. It calm and organized, though of course there was a sense of urgency.

[SoTheresThat]

Several google response said there was no insurance on the castle and the items in the royal collection because their high value made the cost of insurance prohibitive.

[secnarf]

I don't actually recall anything about Princess Margaret IRL. I really cannot compare the real Princess Margaret to the person that is portrayed on the Crown.

However, every season there is a Margaret episode, and every season I dislike the episode. I really cannot stand her character on this show, regardless of the season (though last season's Margaret episode was the most likable of the bunch). I hope IRL she was not like this. I often hear/read about how much the Queen loved her sister and how close they were, and from watching this show I cannot fathom how. Even with scenes like the one at the end of this episode, I have a hard time buying it.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 11/10/2022 at 5:08 AM, andromeda331 said:

She did get to pick the person she wanted to marry.

If this is about the Queen, she got to pick because she chose someone suitable.  If Philip had been divorced with a living wife (or likely divorced with a deceased wife), she could not have picked him.  While I understand the Queen's position as the head of the Anglican Church and a true believer that "marriage is forever" (unless one partner dies), she is remarkably silent about the fact that this leads to many people, including her own children, breaking their marriage vows by having affairs.  I know that there's not much she can do about the latter if she wants them to not divorce, but doesn't she wonder why God has set up such a system?

19 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

This episode didn't really go into it, but they saved a lot because there was an evacuation plan in place. I remember seeing on the news that the fire fighters were working to put out the flames while castle workers were bringing out chairs and tables, paintings, etc. It calm and organized, though of course there was a sense of urgency

https://www.thehistorypress.co.uk/articles/the-windsor-castle-fire-25-facts/

"Fortunately, because rewiring works were being carried out in the areas of the building most affected by the blaze, many valuable paintings and pieces of furniture had already been removed. "

I know the queen did actually visit the site of the fire, but I was uncomfortable seeing her there while the fire was still raging.  It seemed unnecessarily risky. 

Edited November 11, 2022 by ItCouldBeWorse

[Snazzy Daisy]

Several things that I love in this episode - Margaret's Agatha Christie analogy, Margaret & Lilibet's midnight conversation and the adorable corgis (Brandy & Sherry). 😍

Quote

“God, that was middle-class. Promise me we’ll never do that again.”

- Margaret

😂😂😂

Edited November 11, 2022 by SnazzyDaisy

[Lady Whistleup]

I loved this episode. I actually like the Margaret-centered episodes because they show a different side of the Queen. It rings very true -- like a lot of sisters they had a complex, thorny relationship but there was a lot of love. The scene of them chatting on the phone at the end of the episode was as close the Crown ever gets to squishy adorable.

In real life, Margaret seems to have lost interest in Peter -- the Queen had already created an arrangement that would allow for Margaret and Peter to marry. But for the purposes of a drama, this star-crossed lovers storyline is great.

Was the Queen Mum really this awful? She's never been anything but awful in this series.

[Roseanna]

26 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I loved this episode. I actually like the Margaret-centered episodes because they show a different side of the Queen. It rings very true -- like a lot of sisters they had a complex, thorny relationship but there was a lot of love. The scene of them chatting on the phone at the end of the episode was as close the Crown ever gets to squishy adorable.

Yes, Margaret can argue and even quarrel with Elizabeth because she is her sister and nobody else can know, and even less understand, what it's to be born and raised as Princesses of blood. How much they argue, they love each other deeply.

[BuckeyeLou]

I was teary-eyed during the scene with the 2 sisters on the phone talking to each other & their doggies at their feet...the sisters had a very complicated relationship but they did love each other & that tugged at my heart-strings.  And the use of the song "Stardust" made me nostalgic...such a lovely, poignant song...it fit the mood of this chapter of the story

[GHScorpiosRule]

I’ve been mostly unspoiled  about the casting this season, but DAMN!James Bond Timothy Dalton as Peter Townsend was a surprise!

Otherwise, zzzzzz….

Edited November 13, 2022 by GHScorpiosRule

[Straycat80]

I’m not sure it was necessary to revisit Margaret and Peter. That story already had its day a couple seasons back. Still, it’s sad Margaret had a somewhat sad life. 
At least they finally had an Andrew sighting. He and Fergie had such a volatile relationship, they could have had at least one episode. And Diana and Fergie were a united force against the system for a little while. 
Poor Elizabeth, her kids are out of control, her sister and mother drag her, her castle catches on fire, she really did have a Annus Horribilus. 

[Spartan Girl]

Okay, I’m kind of warming up to Lesley as Margaret, or maybe it was the wistful chemistry she had with Peter. Timothy Dalton has aged like a fine, fine wine. 😍😍😍

Lmao at Fergie’s toe-sucking scandal. Andrew could give Charles a run for his money in petulance.

Good for Anne, breaking the cycle and not letting the family control her love life.

Dogs always make episodes better. And I loved that they were named Rum, Brandy, and Sherry.

[PRgal]

2 hours ago, Straycat80 said:

I’m not sure it was necessary to revisit Margaret and Peter. That story already had its day a couple seasons back. Still, it’s sad Margaret had a somewhat sad life. 
At least they finally had an Andrew sighting. He and Fergie had such a volatile relationship, they could have had at least one episode. And Diana and Fergie were a united force against the system for a little while. 
Poor Elizabeth, her kids are out of control, her sister and mother drag her, her castle catches on fire, she really did have a Annus Horribilus. 

It’s more than just horribilus when your mother more or less lectures you (well, dramatized on the show, anyway) and you’re in your mid-60s.  

[dubstepford wife]

10 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I’ve been mostly unsoiled about the casting this season, but DAMN!James Bond Timothy Dalton as Peter Townsend was a surprise!

Otherwise, zzzzzz….

I know Bond is what made him a superstar, but I know him from various BBC miniseries literature adaptations.  No one can compare to his Edward Rochester (1983 miniseries of Jane Eyre, it's fantastic).  He was also great in Penny Dreadful and as a super villain in Dr. Who.  You can tell he had a blast with those roles.  He seems like a character actor trapped in a leading man's body.

Count me among those who are also kind of sick of "poor Margaret" though.  She had a sad life, I don't deny that, but it's pretty played out at this point. 

Edited November 12, 2022 by dubstepford wife

[greekmom]

On 11/10/2022 at 7:53 PM, SoTheresThat said:

Several google response said there was no insurance on the castle and the items in the royal collection because their high value made the cost of insurance prohibitive.

Pretty shocked not even Lloyd's of London took up that risk? They pretty much insure the unsurables. 

[PeterPirate]

Great seeing Vanessa Kirby again.  Lesley Manville killed as Margaret.  Staying within the story of the episode, Anne did what Margaret did not:  She married a commoner and was willing to accept the consequences.  Of course, times had changed regarding public attitudes towards divorce over time.    

I had never watched Elizabeth's Annus Horribilis speech before, so I pulled it up on YouTube.  Suffice it to say, there are noticeable differences between the real and dramatized versions.  

[truthful]

3 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Great seeing Vanessa Kirby again.  Lesley Manville killed as Margaret.  Staying within the story of the episode, Anne did what Margaret did not:  She married a commoner and was willing to accept the consequences.  Of course, times had changed regarding public attitudes towards divorce over time.    

I had never watched Elizabeth's Annus Horribilis speech before, so I pulled it up on YouTube.  Suffice it to say, there are noticeable differences between the real and dramatized versions.  

It kind of makes any Margaret centric episode kind of hollow and repetitive knowing that she could have had the life she wanted had she not been such a snob.

[pasdetrois]

On 11/11/2022 at 2:36 PM, Lady Whistleup said:

Was the Queen Mum really this awful? She's never been anything but awful in this series.

Yes.

While beloved by millions in Britain, she was perceived by some of those who knew her to be snobbish and greedy in some situations.

[sistermagpie]

On 11/10/2022 at 8:56 AM, Roseanna said:

I think that the writer forgets the basic fact: things change in time. It was quite different, especially for a woman, in 50ies, 60ies, 80ies and in 2000ies, not only about sexual morality, marriage, cohabiting and divorce, divorce, but also studying, working and raising kids. 

Unfortunately, although Charles was young in the 60ies, he was taught the old-fashioned morality, first "sow wild oats" and then settle down with an inexperienced girl by Mountbatten. And while people lived together, that wasn't possible for Charles and Diana.

Yes, any woman would have been facing a different situation regarding the times. With Margaret, too, I can believe that she had gotten over Peter, but in old age, when he got in touch, she was overwhelmed with nostalgia. She could always imagine her life with him as perfect because she didn't have it, but I've no doubt she would have had plenty of problems with him as she got older.

From what I've read Diana, too, tried to stick to old fashioned morality to prepare for marriage--unfortunately she thought that meant a fairy tale happily ever after.

On 11/10/2022 at 7:41 PM, dubbel zout said:

I bet the contents are insured, but the buildings themselves aren't. I'd think they're somewhat uninsurable, due to their historical importance.

This episode didn't really go into it, but they saved a lot because there was an evacuation plan in place. I remember seeing on the news that the fire fighters were working to put out the flames while castle workers were bringing out chairs and tables, paintings, etc. It calm and organized, though of course there was a sense of urgency.

I saw a great documentary about the reconstruction that was fascinating. One thing I always remembered was taking out a big carpet. They had regular people trying to carry it and they kept falling, with people getting dragged on the ground. It was hilarious. They had to bring in soldiers who could march in step to get it out.

Also funny seeing the Queen taking pictures of it. She looked like a regular Windsor castle tourist.

[tennisgurl]

I normally find Margaret’s pity party episodes to be rather tedious, she could have married Peter in the 50s but she didn’t want to lose her royal perks, but…if I lost out on Timothy Dalton, who has aged like the finest of wines, I’d be salty and regretful too. 

[GaT]

I can understand Margaret's anger at not being allowed to marry Peter Townsend. Yes, she could have given up everything to marry him, but she was absolutely right about Anne. Anne was exactly in the same position as Margaret was, but Anne was not only allowed to get divorced, she was allowed to remarry just a few months later to a man who was in the exact same position as Peter Townsend was, and she didn't have to give up a thing. I would have been extremely pissed off if I was Margaret, Margaret & Anne were in the same position (except Anne was already divorced once), but only Anne was allowed to have what she wanted, without giving up everything she already had.

[Blakeston]

On 11/13/2022 at 12:35 PM, pasdetrois said:

Yes.

While beloved by millions in Britain, she was perceived by some of those who knew her to be snobbish and greedy in some situations.

The Queen Mother had very good qualities and some bad ones, but we've only been seeing the bad ones from season two onward.

The film The Queen was a lot more even-handed, and did a good job showing her funny, adorable side, while also showing that she was stuck in her ways.

9 hours ago, GaT said:

I can understand Margaret's anger at not being allowed to marry Peter Townsend. Yes, she could have given up everything to marry him, but she was absolutely right about Anne. Anne was exactly in the same position as Margaret was, but Anne was not only allowed to get divorced, she was allowed to remarry just a few months later to a man who was in the exact same position as Peter Townsend was, and she didn't have to give up a thing. I would have been extremely pissed off if I was Margaret, Margaret & Anne were in the same position (except Anne was already divorced once), but only Anne was allowed to have what she wanted, without giving up everything she already had.

Does anyone know if the Church of England's rules changed in some way between the Margaret/Peter affair and Anne's re-marriage? Or did the Queen herself just decide in the '90s that times had changed enough to allow it?

[Roseanna]

22 hours ago, GaT said:

I can understand Margaret's anger at not being allowed to marry Peter Townsend. Yes, she could have given up everything to marry him, but she was absolutely right about Anne. Anne was exactly in the same position as Margaret was, but Anne was not only allowed to get divorced, she was allowed to remarry just a few months later to a man who was in the exact same position as Peter Townsend was, and she didn't have to give up a thing. I would have been extremely pissed off if I was Margaret, Margaret & Anne were in the same position (except Anne was already divorced once), but only Anne was allowed to have what she wanted, without giving up everything she already had.

The crux of the matter is different age. It's like being angry because "my daughter could study in the university while I couldn't even go the college".

Edited November 15, 2022 by Roseanna
correcting two letters

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

Anyone know if the Vanessa Kirby footage was all from earlier seasons, or did they bring her back to film new stuff?

As others have pointed out, the Queen Mother casting bugs. Couldn't they have brought in an actress who looks even a little bit like her? Even the body type is all wrong.

OTOH, Lesley Manville absolutely killed as Margaret. She and Debicki are the best casting this season, with the always-excellent Pryce right behind.

Edited November 15, 2022 by Sir RaiderDuck OMS

[Lady Whistleup]

7 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Does anyone know if the Church of England's rules changed in some way between the Margaret/Peter affair and Anne's re-marriage? Or did the Queen herself just decide in the '90s that times had changed enough to allow it?

Nothing changed. In real life, in the 1950's Elizabeth already made an arrangement so Margaret could marry Peter, keep her titles, inherit a castle, and receive a generous allowance. But Margaret lost interest in Peter by the time Elizabeth had finalized the arrangements.

The real life Elizabeth remained fiercely protective of Margaret her entire life. While the show does demonstrate their closeness as sisters, they don't really show how protective Elizabeth was of Margaret.

Edited November 15, 2022 by Lady Whistleup

[sistermagpie]

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

The crux of the matter is different age. It's like being anger because "my daughter could study in the university while I couldn't even go the college".

Exactly. Margaret's situation on the show really isn't that different from plenty of other non-royals in her situation who would have gotten divorced if it was the 1970s instead of the 1950s. 

[kassa]

On 11/12/2022 at 11:12 PM, greekmom said:

Pretty shocked not even Lloyd's of London took up that risk? They pretty much insure the unsurables. 

They'd do it for a price. The price was considered too high to pay.  If you think about it, you might pay a million a year to insure one single precious thing. But if you have 300 precious things, are you going to spend $300million/yr to insure them?

On 11/15/2022 at 1:55 AM, Roseanna said:

The crux of the matter is different age. It's like being angry because "my daughter could study in the university while I couldn't even go the college".

Yup. And in the late 50s my grandparents also had a serious decision to make - whether to attend the wedding of one of their sons to a Protestant. (They did, but the decision carried considerable risk within their social circle.)  It was not that long ago that even regular people faced major consequences for marrying outside the established norms of their circle. And many still do.

That said, of course she'd have feelings about it decades later. Anybody would.

[Inquisitionist]

On 11/10/2022 at 1:17 PM, dubbel zout said:

If Diana had been a different sort of person, living separate lives while staying married could have worked, as Philip said. Because she and Charles were magic together when they turned on the razzle dazzle. But Diana wanted love and a real partnership, something Charles was unable/unwilling to give her. (Making no judgment on what kind of marriage is preferable; it's whatever the parties agree on, IMO.) The marriage was doomed from the start, as we've always noted.

I think Diana's family was gravely at fault for not explaining the situation to her before the marriage -- or perhaps they did, and she didn't want to believe it. 

On 11/10/2022 at 1:33 PM, Ellaria Sand said:

Lesley Manville is brilliant as Margaret. Loved seeing Timothy Dalton.

I enjoyed this episode because, despite so much of it being known, it still felt “new.” Perhaps it is the cast. Imelda Staunton and Jonathan Pryce inhabit their characters  with weariness, a feeling that they have playing their “royal roles” for much too long.

Ditto on both these points.  I've never been swoony over Timothy Dalton, but he was perfect as older Peter Townsend.  I agree with the weariness aspect of being Queen and consort for so long.

[blackwing]

On 11/15/2022 at 3:06 AM, Sir RaiderDuck OMS said:

Anyone know if the Vanessa Kirby footage was all from earlier seasons, or did they bring her back to film new stuff?

As others have pointed out, the Queen Mother casting bugs. Couldn't they have brought in an actress who looks even a little bit like her? Even the body type is all wrong.

OTOH, Lesley Manville absolutely killed as Margaret. She and Debicki are the best casting this season, with the always-excellent Pryce right behind.

I could be wrong but it looked like these were all earlier scenes.  It was great seeing her again, she was great as Margaret.

Agree that the Queen Mother casting is all wrong, she doesn't look anything at all like the QM, for one, she should have a rounder fuller face.  This actress looks so familiar to me, but in looking at her filmography, I don't think I would have seen her anything.  She just looks so much like a perfect typecast for "batty old English aunt with slight dementia".

Lesley Manville is perfection.  I think her speech to Elizabeth where she laments her lost love was Emmy-worthy.

[dubbel zout]

41 minutes ago, blackwing said:

She just looks so much like a perfect typecast for "batty old English aunt with slight dementia".

That's very close to her character in the Brokenwood Mysteries.

[blackwing]

24 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

That's very close to her character in the Brokenwood Mysteries.

Ah, the mention of mysteries made me think some more, I think her look reminds me a bit of Joan Hickson.  If they ever made more Miss Marple movies, this actress could be a contender for the role.

[Lady Jane]

On 11/14/2022 at 12:52 PM, GaT said:

I can understand Margaret's anger at not being allowed to marry Peter Townsend. Yes, she could have given up everything to marry him, but she was absolutely right about Anne. Anne was exactly in the same position as Margaret was, but Anne was not only allowed to get divorced, she was allowed to remarry just a few months later to a man who was in the exact same position as Peter Townsend was, and she didn't have to give up a thing. I would have been extremely pissed off if I was Margaret, Margaret & Anne were in the same position (except Anne was already divorced once), but only Anne was allowed to have what she wanted, without giving up everything she already had.

Worth noting that when she married Tim, they did so outside the Church of England. Moreover, Margaret just had to wait until she turned 25 for her sisters' permission, then could have gone forward with marrying him without losing her royal status. He simply fell in love with someone else, and she married AAJ. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 11/15/2022 at 1:44 AM, Blakeston said:

Does anyone know if the Church of England's rules changed in some way between the Margaret/Peter affair and Anne's re-marriage? Or did the Queen herself just decide in the '90s that times had changed enough to allow it?

Anne got remarried in the Church of Scotland: "Unlike the Church of England at the time, the Church of Scotland considered marriage to be an ordinance of religion rather than a sacrament and permitted the remarriage of divorced persons under certain circumstances." (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne,_Princess_Royal#Marriage_to_Sir_Timothy_Laurence).

[Camera One]

I thought the title of the episode would mean this episode was centered around the Queen, but it turned out to be more about Princess Margaret retreading old sun and old waters.  The flashbacks did make me a little nostalgic for the first season again.  Too bad they didn't get the original Margaret actress back to show us something new, though.  This Margaret resembles the Season 1-2 one moreso than the Season 3-4 one.  I did remember how Margaret was a tad irritating with her blaming, and it was hard to get behind her whiny tirade about why Anne in the 1990s is being "allowed" to do what she couldn't.  Still, the actress playing older Margaret gave an excellent performance, and I did feel for her for much of the episode.  Though I was a bit disturbed by the chain smoking and constant drinking.  

I was hoping there would be more build-up and context to the Annus Horribilis.  We've hardly seen the Queen, so I couldn't really feel the extent of why this was a horrible year for her.  They could have shown us some scenes in Windsor Castle to show us the Queen's connection to it.  I don't know why they have shied away from Fergie.  She was always in the news way back when.

It was hard to relate to why the Queen felt divorce was worse than destructive dragged out relationships full of anger and infidelity.  

I actually thought the Queen Mother was hilarious.  "Apology" shouldn't be in your vocabulary.  Don't show any weakness!   Pretty motivational, I would say, LOL.

Edited November 19, 2022 by Camera One

[Roseanna]

3 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I don't know why they have shied away from Fergie.  She was always in the news way back when.

I didn't particularly want more Fergie, except perhaps to show similarities and differences with Diana. 

On the basis of what Andrew told his mum, he seemed to be astonishlingly undestanding about his wife's affairs (she was lonely because he served in the Navy and was so mych away) and even the first lover was a fine chap, but what he couldn't stand was the public humilation (the pictures).

But how coudld he interpretation that the royal family "always" destroys "all" who are "different" be applied to Fergie's afffairs? Also otherwise it sounded too much Morgan who sometimes presents the duke of Windsor as the Nazi, sometimes an innocent victim of his loveless family (who had nothing to do with his abdictation - the responsibility not to accept his marriage with Mrs Windor lies in the government's door).    

[LadyIrony]

On 11/10/2022 at 9:10 AM, Roseanna said:

The writer seems to love Margaret - why else she was given so much screen-time. I am really tired of her self-pity. It was not her sister who robbed her of Peter, but she herself loved her position more (irl - see history section). Many people must make much harder choices and don't accuse others for them.

Margaret could have easily left behind her Royal life and had the man of her dreams. She chose not to do that though and spent the rest of her life being miserable. It does get old hearing her complain all the time. 

***

As far as Charles and Diana go, the Queen made a lot of mistakes by trying to dictate who her sons could and couldn't marry and we saw the disasters that followed. Andrew's first preference was actress Koo Stark but she was a no go due to some of her racy roles. Charles should have been allowed to have Camilla. It would have saved the Royals a lot of mess down the track. 

[CeeBeeGee]

On 11/11/2022 at 2:36 PM, Lady Whistleup said:

Was the Queen Mum really this awful? She's never been anything but awful in this series.

For a while Morgan has consistently portrayed her as awful.

My thoughts:

*This was so lovely and sweet, I was practically swooning. I absolutely LOVED seeing so many others just watching Margaret and Peter dance together to Stardust. And Peter, happily on the sidelines, proudly watching Margaret entertain. What a palate cleanser after an episode about the Fayeds (completely uninteresting to me). Just lovely.

*These darn recastings--the first colloquy between Anne and Margaret, I didn't realize that was Anne. It wasn't until she met with Mummy a couple of scenes later that it clicked. I get why it's necessary but it is confusing.

*If you get a chance, google a picture of the woman Peter Townsend eventually married. DEAD ringer for Margaret. (And much younger as well. He sure had a type.)

*UGH, those pictures. Those nasty, disgusting pictures of Sarah at the pool with her paramour. I remember seeing them (I'm embarrassed to admit I bought a tabloid). Ugh. The pictures were bad enough but babies Eugenie and Beatrice were RIGHT THERE. SO unbelievably classless and common. I guess Jolly Hockysticks (a nickname for a Fergie-type--very gungho, high energy and loud--the opposite of Diana) wasn't what it cracked up to be. It took me awhile to quit Fergie.

*Loving this memory montage of Peter and Margaret's romance but I don't remember seeing these scenes in Seasons 1-2?  I wonder if they brought the Season 1-2 Margaret and Peter actors back?

*Lovely scene between Peter and Margaret. They were so sweet together.

*Queen Mum needs to know her place and step back. Peter Morgan sure doesn't like her much--she is consistently portrayed as someone a little too in love with the privilege of monarchy, someone who consistently fails to read the room.

*Casting Timothy Dalton (a former Bond) as Peter Townsend is interesting because the real Townsend was a dead ringer for George Lazenby--another former Bond.

[Jordan Baker]

I just finished watching this episode, and it's by far my favorite of this season. Lesley Manville was amazing as Margaret. And the scenes with Timothy Dalton were brilliant. I enjoyed the first three episodes well enough, but only this one had me riveted to the screen.

The actor playing Andrew looks quite a bit like the real thing. Sometimes this matters; sometimes it doesn't. (Lesley Manville doesn't really resemble Margaret, although you can imagine her as the older Margaret from Seasons 1 and 2.) Perhaps it's our familiarity with Charles (and the fact that Seasons 3 and 4 Charles did resemble the now-king), but I'm having some trouble with Dominic West as Charles. And I say that as a huge fan (ever since his Jimmy McNulty days). I don't think it's West's fault. He seems to be doing a good job, but he's so physically different from Charles that it's distracting.

Edited November 26, 2022 by Jordan Baker
Parens come in pairs.

[mmecorday]

Quote

*UGH, those pictures. Those nasty, disgusting pictures of Sarah at the pool with her paramour. I remember seeing them (I'm embarrassed to admit I bought a tabloid). Ugh. The pictures were bad enough but babies Eugenie and Beatrice were RIGHT THERE. SO unbelievably classless and common. I guess Jolly Hockysticks (a nickname for a Fergie-type--very gungho, high energy and loud--the opposite of Diana) wasn't what it cracked up to be. It took me awhile to quit Fergie.

I never liked Fergie. Neither did the royal magazines I subscribed to in the 1980s and early 90s. I remember one of those magazines had a very unflattering picture of her on the cover and the copy read: "Sitting pretty? The Duchess of York turns 30." 

I really loved the conversation between the two sisters at the end. I'm sorry the Queen couldn't meet Margaret for a boozy lunch because I'm sure that would have been a lot of fun. 

[formerlyfreedom]

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