S01.E03: Second Of His Name

[CletusMusashi]

1 hour ago, magdalene said:

Important characters always have plot armor in fiction. How did Jon Snow survive all.

Same way Daemon did. In GoT land, if you're an important character, then arrows only hurt for a minute or two. After that you're fine.

[tennisgurl]

I'm not Master of Ships or anything, but I would think that they could have found a way to stop the crabbers a few years ago. No one thought to lure them out of their caves at any earlier point, or just have the dragon stick its head towards the caves after he takes out the archers? This really shouldn't be that hard you guys. Its too bad Tywin isn't around, that was a guy who knew how to handle a siege when your opponent goes underground...

I cant be too mad though, the big battle looked really cool, Daemon's dragon flying around strategically laying fire everywhere was awesome. Its also hilarious that apparently all it took to get this plan really going was for Viserys to provide help so that Daemon is properly motivated to show that he can handle this without his brother. Its probably why I like Daemon despite how many awful things he does, he's a petty asshole but he's also pretty kickass when he wants to be. 

I feel bad for Viserys, he's just not a person that should have been the king. He's not a bad man and not even a terrible king, but he just doesn't command the authority that a king needs. He gets annoyed when people bring up important things he doesn't want to deal with, he tends to dither here and there on every issue, and he's always trying to appease everyone, which he himself said just usually just ends with him pissing people off anyway, it seems like he would be a thousand times happier if he could just work on his art projects and not have to deal with running a country. I do tend to agree with him on being weirded out by all of the arranged child marriages, even if that is just the way things are. That's what makes him sympathetic, but also why he is struggling as king. 

One thing never changes in Westeros: The Lannisters never miss an opportunity to deck themselves out in lions! I admit I always get a thrill when we meet the ancestors of the Game of Thrones characters, I always listening for last names and looking for family sigils. 

Lord Strong gave Viserys some solid advice, and unlike Otto doesn't seem to have an obvious agenda. 

[steelyis]

1 hour ago, AimingforYoko said:

I did enjoy Viserys' hearty laugh at Otto's suggestion of two year-old Aegon as a match for Rhaenyra.

😆

Viserys Targaryen: the only man in all the Seven Kingdoms who doesn't think marrying actual, literal babies to adults is a super great idea.

[PurpleTentacle]

Ugh, this was later GoT-seasons level of plot-armour that Daemon had there. I might be more foregiving if this franchise didn't have such massive baggage, but with that in mind, it really bugged me. I guess at least it wasn't Arya getting stabed multiple times, having the blade twisted in her guts and then jumping into sewage, only to be fine after eating some soup...

Other than that, I liked the episode. The politics and characters were great and consistent as ever.

[PurpleTentacle]

4 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I'm not Master of Ships or anything, but I would think that they could have found a way to stop the crabbers a few years ago. No one thought to lure them out of their caves at any earlier point, or just have the dragon stick its head towards the caves after he takes out the archers? This really shouldn't be that hard you guys. Its too bad Tywin isn't around, that was a guy who knew how to handle a siege when your opponent goes underground...

I think the cave situation was recent?

But still, it didn't look like there was fresh water. Even if there was, there certainly was no food. So this would have been a matter of days, maybe a few months at the most. They made it out like Daemon and Corlys might lose, but I saw no indication of that. You could hold the cave entrances with a minimal number of men and two dragons easily and just starve the crab feeder out.

2 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Identical twin Lannisters this time. Now that won't get confusing, I'm sure.

Are we thinking that those two are fucking as well? Or did Cercei and Jamie start that tradition?

2 hours ago, magdalene said:

There are two Targaryan dragons on this show so far and Viserys is not one of them.

Pretty sure there are three so far. There were two dragons in this episodes battle. One was Deamon's, the other Laenor's and then we've seen Rhaenyra's in previous episodes.

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

So Daemon, and by extension Corlys, are the kind of guys that will waive a flag of surrender as a ruse? And people wonder why Daemon has a bad reputation.

Yeah that also bugged me. Not very honorable and worthy of of somebody who wants to be king. So you beat the crabfeeder, great. If it comes out how, there is no honor in that victory and nobody will ever trust you again in negotiations. Congratulations, you played yourself.

1 hour ago, magdalene said:

Somebody up thread was saying Daemon's side wasn't following the rules of war with the fake white flag surrender. Boohoo. They were fighting against people who were torturing people to death being eaten alive by crabs. "Civilized" war fare is a big lie.

It's not about this guy, it's about the next guy who won't trust you. There weren't very many rules in medieval battles, like feeding people to crabs would have been fine, but backstabbing somebody after you surrendered or at negotiations is a big nono.

[Cheezwiz]

I have been thoroughly confused about the whole step stones & crab feeder plot thread this whole time, so I'm hoping it's resolved. I know the crab feeder dude was some sort of pirate, but that's all I could make out. He ultimately wasn't a very compelling villain.

There is an awful lot of tedious yammering in council meetings on this show, but not a whole lot of wit or humour, which is why I'm finding it draggy. It then gets interspersed with explicit gore. We need some Tyrion and Varys level characters in the mix.

The battle scene with the dragons was well done. As far as I'm concerned, DRAGONS GOOD. The rest? Meh. I am also tired of sulky teenage angsty Rhaenyra and hope she gets something more interesting to do.

[magdalene]

2 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Pretty sure there are three so far. There were two dragons in this episodes battle. One was Deamon's, the other Laenor's and then we've seen Rhaenyra's in previous episodes.

You misunderstand my point.  I was referring to Daemon and Rhaenyra as the two Targ dragons of this show.  Worthy to be called a dragon, you know? And then I dissed Viserys by saying he isn't a dragon.

[Lady S.]

1 hour ago, peridot said:

That poor messenger!  Did the crab pirate have grayscale?  I was wondering if Daemon was infected since he got all the blood on him and was touching the pirate's skin.

According to the bts vids, yes, though it does seem like pointless backstory if it's not made clear onscreen and doesn't affect the plot.

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

When you don't honor a surrender, whether you're the person "surrendering" or the person "accepting the surrender", people no longer have any reason to trust you and will fairly conclude you're willing to do anything.

Convenient for Daemon then that it's unlikely any of the witnesses to his false surrender survived. 

Updated for 1.03

[Constantinople]

36 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

Convenient for Daemon then that it's unlikely any of the witnesses to his false surrender survived.

The false surrender was part of the plan so a number of people on Daemon's side will know it. Others probably saw the flag given its size.

[Chyromaniac]

I didn’t have a problem with the idea that the Crabfeeder War could go on for two-ish years.  First off, it feels like from the format of the show in general that so far we’re getting a snapshot view of this era of history, focusing on the key moments.  Second- production values aside, this is just a TV show.  Just because they’ve shot the Crabfeeder scenes at the same beach, I don’t think that’s meant to suggest that they’ve been fighting at those specific caves this whole time.  Clearly CF had additional resources and support to sustain his attacks on Westerosi ships.

Finally, the nature of this war provided  Corlys and Daemon with challenges that they seemed unprepared to address.  For one thing, it’s not particularly clear on the show, but this war is happening really far away for them.  Like, I kind of wish they had stuck with the pop-up map for the credits, because it at least gave some sense of distance.  In this case, Corlys is lord of Driftmark, an island near Dragonstone at the outer edge of Blackwater Bay.  Meanwhile, the Stepstones are all the way down off the tip of Dorne.  So not only are they having to maintain a long supply chain just to stay in the war, they are by default fighting on CF’s home turf.  Also, CF’s forces are locals who probably view their piracy as defending their territory against foreign intruders.  And of course, C&D are fighting this war on their own, using only the resources at their direct disposal - ships, dragons  and gold cloaks.  That may work in some battlegrounds- but against an entrenched, motivated native enemy with a topographical advantage?  It’s no wonder they were basically at a standstill.

[ZeeEnnui]

So in addition to losing two fingers, did Viserys lose his balls as well? It would explain his "fingers in ears and lalalala I can't hear you" approach to ruling. 

Congratulations, Otto. You've graduated from Bad Dad to Bad Grandad. Get the man a commemorative mug.

Someone set up a profile for Rhaenerys on  Ok Dragon. Likes: Dragons, keeping it in the bloodline, and throwing a two-year tantrum. Dislikes: Alicent, Viserys, and the patriarchy. 

[rtms77]

21 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

The false surrender was part of the plan so a number of people on Daemon's side will know it. Others probably saw the flag given its size.

Exactly, in fact you can tell when Deamon actually signals that the plan is in effect when, he turned around and crossed his arms. Many of them singled back and took notice. Not sure why they took this route unless they didn’t trust Corleys brother who complained and was stirring up trouble. Still beggars the question, what did they do so wrong in three yrs that led to this ruse and almost losing a war. How did the Crab king inflict so much damage? Was it because none of the knights had ever seen war? Inexperience? Dragons applied smartly, along with a well trained navy and ground forces should have defeated these pirates quickly. 
 

It’s really a metaphor for the show, they had peace for so long no one knew what to do in their roles. Visery has no idea how to be a king, and never should have been picked but , men rule , women don’t. Most house leaders should be rich and making names for themselves, or becoming knights and fighting, but not one man has any idea of what to do in a real war. The kingdom isn’t growing, it’s stagnant as the king won’t cross to Essos and try to take over. 

[cambridgeguy]

Somewhere in the afterlife, I can imagine Robert running into Viserys and mocking him.  Sure, I may have needed a box to mount and dismount my horse, but at least I could kill my prey without needing my men to hold the poor thing down. 

And hey, looks like in a past life Ser Hugh was a Lannister!  Beats taking a lance to the throat from Ser Gregor.

[ybrik]

A good episode. Not sure if it was as good as the first two. I do think this was probably the character of Alicent’s best episode. As mentioned by another poster, she is really juggling being wife, mother and daughter and doing what is best for her family while obviously still caring about Rhaenyra. There is definitely some conflict between going after what her father wants and hurting Rhaenyra. I do wish we had gotten at least one scene with Rhaenyra and Alicent before this big time jump preferably right after Viserys announcing the marriage just to see how Alicent tried to explain this to Rhaenyra. Maybe we’ll get some conversations about this later on.

Sullen and bitter Rhaenyra wasn’t as great as she had been in the first couple of episodes though I think this was needed and hopefully bounces back next episode. She still had some good points though. Seeing through the Lannisters and calling them out is always a plus. Her coming back to camp covered in blood was definitely a moment that those attending wouldn’t forget and probably overshadowed the king. So much seems to be unsaid between her and the king. Her saying that marrying Alicent offered him no advantages has to be something that has been bothering her for so long. What that implies, seems like something that she has been thinking about all this time. 

Viserys seems to slowly be breaking down physically and psychologically by being the king.

Agree with a previous poster that while the show seemed to focus the entirety of the war on that one beach, it is unlikely all three years were there. Laenor mentions that this was a choke point that the Crab Feeders men had fallen back to. Didn’t mind Daemon surviving at the end because while it was a bit of plot armor. It wasn’t completely illogical for him to survive with how it was set up. The Crab Feeder was only sending a few men at a time at a pace where Daemon could fight one at a time and be able to keep moving to avoid the arrows. It wasn’t until CF sent out more men where Daemon had to slow down and ended up getting shot. I think the white flag thing will be like all things with Daemon, it will depend on what you already think of Daemon. In Westeros, those who aren’t opposed to him will probably see him going out on his own as heroic while those already against him will see faking the white flag as disgraceful.  

[paigow]

Other Famous Fake Surrenders

[Haleth]

So Viserys got over the infection in his hand?  I thought for sure he'd be gone by now. 

Rhaenyra sulking for the last 3 years is not giving the council confidence in her leadership.  On the other hand, Matt Daemon finally showed some leadership (albeit somewhat wrecklessly) after piddling around for 3 years at the beach.  And all it took was a threat from the king to send help.  That was kind of an underwhelming end to the crab guy, being chopping in half by someone with 3 arrows sticking out of him.  (I never did figure out who he was but I guess it doesn't matter now.)

I was confused about the other kid too, thinking surely this can't be the same son of Corlys that we saw at the tournament?  (He looked even younger than his sister.)  And wearing a helmet it was hard to ID him as the dragon rider, except for the little bit of white hair peaking out.

8 hours ago, WaltersHair said:

Well, at least Daemon knows how to bob and weave, unlike the Stark kid who ran in a straight line.

Ha!  I was thinking of this too.  Serpentine, Riccon Matt Daemon!

8 hours ago, Constantinople said:

To be fair Jon was dead for the first couple of episodes of Season 6 of Game of Thrones.

Yeah, but he got over it.

[Stardancer Supreme]

10 hours ago, ICantDoThatDave said:

Episode 1: Rhaenyra is 15

Episode 2: We're told 6 months have passed.

Episode 3: Another 3 years have passed.

King: "Powerless over mine own daughter of seven and ten."

Westerosi math is hard.

Or her 18th birthday hasn't come up yet. Viserys would be an even shittier father if he didn't acknowledge the Princess' birthday because of the annoying marriage proposals...

[Helena Dax]

I find Daemon highly entertaining, which is more than I can say about most characters in the show right now. 

Viserys killing that poor stag looked pathetic as fuck, but I think he could see that himself. He isn't a bad man, just a weak king, like Daemon said. I'm glad he said clearly to Rhaenyra that he isn't planning to replace her with Aegon.

I couldn't believe that young man was Corlys's little son. Wtf, he looked about eight in the first episode! Considering the Targaryens are okay with incest, I have to agree with the guy who told the King that Rhaner should marry him. He's hot, brave and wouldn't resent being the king consort, I think.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Helena Dax
Targaryen names are difficult af

[paigow]

53 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

hot, brave and wouldn't resent being the king consort, I think.

And Daddy would be batting .500 as Master of Pimps

[xaxat]

Future Daemon "I used to be an adventurer like you. Then I took an arrow in the knee."

[DigitalCount]

44 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

As far as incest goes, this is very minor. I mean he is her cousin like twice removed? Because her father and his mother are cousins, if I remember correctly.

That would be legal anywhere in the current world.

I think they're second cousins, because they are on the same generation level, both two generations after a sibling pair. And yes, in general second cousins are legal as far as I know.

I was also concerned about the broken parley. If you can't trust a parley, there's no reason to ever stop fighting, because any attempts at brokering peace could be another ploy to spring a trap.

Edited September 5, 2022 by DigitalCount

[paigow]

28 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

As far as incest goes, this is very minor. I mean he is her cousin like twice removed? Because her father and his mother are cousins, if I remember correctly.

That would be legal anywhere in the current world.

Any 30 Rock fans remember the details of why Liz broke up with the guy that had a photo of her grandmother in his apartment?

Seth Meyers frequently roasts Rudy G about incestuous marriage to a 2nd cousin...

[PurpleTentacle]

5 minutes ago, paigow said:

Any 30 Rock fans remember the details of why Liz broke up with the guy that had a photo of her grandmother in his apartment?

Because having the same grandma makes you cousins, not second cousins.

6 minutes ago, paigow said:

Seth Meyers frequently roasts Rudy G about incestuous marriage to a 2nd cousin...

He can roast people for whatever he wants, I just think it's silly.

[mledawn]

Given the comments in GOT, I'm surprised we're not seeing more in-family action from the Targaryens.

I was otherwise distracted by the massive orgy tapestry on the wall behind Alicent when Otto was talking to her at the end about making sure her son is named heir.

[Silver-hyren]

My impression of the show so far has been a very strong “Meh” but I will give this episode credit for making me feel sympathy for Viserys.  He’s not a good king and isn’t suited to the role (the show hasn’t been subtle about that and the scene with the stag just hammered that home).  Thing is, he knows this.  He’s not a bad person (as far as “good” and “bad” are defined in GoT land).  He’s trying his best for the most part to do what he thinks is right.  Unfortunately, he gets it wrong most times.  He misses his wife, whom he actually loved, but wants to enjoy his second chance at happiness.  He knows his brother would make a worse king, so wants to protect the people from him.  He loves his daughter and wants her to be happy but their relationship is also strained by his role as king.  The scene by the bonfire was very “Heavy is the head that wears the crown.”

[iMonrey]

I thought this was a pretty good episode but the battle scene at the end was just confusing. They did not do a good job establishing exactly what was going on or that Daemon and Corlys had more than one dragon at their disposal. Daenerys took out an entire city with one dragon, are we to believe they couldn't defeat these pirates in three years with two dragons and an army? I don't care if they were hiding in caves, they could have just destroying the mountain itself. 

Quote

That was Ser Laenor Velaryon, the son of Corlys and Rhaeny, who we earlier saw in conference on the hill.  I have read that his dragon is named Seasmoke.  And yes, the Velaryons are related to the Targaryens and can ride dragons.

It didn't look like him. During the battle strategy meeting when they showed him I thought Corlys referred to him as his nephew but maybe that was Corlys' brother? Then the dude riding the dragon looked like some white dude, but maybe I have to go back and watch again.

Quote

And I think I laughed too hard when the guy being nailed to wood was so happy to see his prince only to be squashed like bug.

That was my favorite part! I'm glad this show has a sense of humor.

Edited September 5, 2022 by iMonrey

[DrSpaceman73]

1 hour ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Because having the same grandma makes you cousins, not second cousins.

He can roast people for whatever he wants, I just think it's silly.

They didn't have the same grandma.  It was like one of their great aunts and one their grandma something like that.  Second or third cousins.  

A second cousin marriage really isn't that risky for children if it's a single in-family marriage. The problem is when there are multiple second cousin marriages in the same families the risk increases, more recessive genes combining.  

Second cousin marriages are legal. In fact first cousin marriages are still legal on many states. And not just in the south. 

Legal?  Sure.  Ethical or encouraged?  No

[CletusMusashi]

5 hours ago, Haleth said:

That was kind of an underwhelming end to the crab guy, being chopping in half by someone with 3 arrows sticking out of him.  (I never did figure out who he was but I guess it doesn't matter now.)

There's a deleted scene where they unmask him and he turns out to be Albacore Scurvey, the owner of that spooky pirate-themed water park across the bay. He was trying to scare everyone away so he could buy all the islands and turn them into more water parks. Which, come to think of it, would be kind of awesome. Damn you, Matt Daemon! 

[proserpina65]

Now that was more like it!  Still too much sitting around discussing who should marry whom and who should be heir, but finally some action.  I'm really starting to like Daemon.  I mean, he's not a good person by the wildest stretch of the imagination, but at least he's not boring.

Rhaenyra could do worse than the Velayron son.

I'm not hating on Alicent as queen.  She does seem to be trying to keep the peace between Rhaenyra and Viserys, and at this point she isn't pushing to make her son the heir.  And Viserys isn't a bad person or really a bad king, just one somewhat ill-suited to the time, weak and ineffectual.  At least when Alicent asked him about doing what was right for the realm, he made the correct decision.

That was a brilliant strategy for taking down the Crab Feeder and his pirates.  Sure, not really acceptable in modern warfare, but for a medieval-based society, it was fairly standard.  But it really shouldn't have taken them 3 years to come up with something that effective.

I kinda question how effective feeding someone to the crabs was a method of killing them, but then I don't now enough about crabs to say whether or not they would eat something that was alive.  It definitely wouldn't be pleasant, but I think rat-bucketing was more impressive.

Quote

To the last minute I kept begging at the screen, "please spare that stag, killing it makes you look pathetic". 

I was hoping he would spare it too, but in his society, that would've been the thing which made him look weak and pathetic.  It's not so much that he sucks, but that his society does.

14 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

That was a second dragon ridden by an unnamed Dragon Rider we haven't met yet.  The only other dragon shown tonight was Daemon's.

I'm pretty sure that was Laenor Velaryon.  I didn't realize he had his own dragon, though.  I thought it was Aemon's dragon, but I guess it makes sense he would have one given that his mother is a Targaryen.

14 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Glad to get some significant scenes with Lannister ancestors!  Who were easy to spot because, as Rhaenyra pretty much pointed out, they are not shy about showing off those lion sigils.  I really do love how extra that entire family is.  If they were ever transported to the real world, they would be that rich family who are always preening on the red carpets, probably have multiple reality shows, and always be advertising their logo and name-dropping their products to any poor sod that's within ear-shot!

OMG, the Lannisters are Kardashians!

14 hours ago, peridot said:

Did the crab pirate have grayscale?

I thought it looked like old burn scars.

13 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Daemon has now lowered himself to Ramsay Bolton's level.

I wouldn't say he'd done that, but I do agree that people don't have any reason to trust him.  Although I don't think they did before that, either.

[iMonrey]

Quote

That was kind of an underwhelming end to the crab guy, being chopping in half by someone with 3 arrows sticking out of him.  (I never did figure out who he was but I guess it doesn't matter now.)

Yeah they seemed to be building this guy up as a major Big Bad but in the end he never even had any lines. I don't know what the point was of making him all mysterious and masked and stuff. Maybe they didn't have to pay the actor who played him.

[CletusMusashi]

4 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Yeah they seemed to be building this guy up as a major Big Bad but in the end he never even had any lines. I don't know what the point was of making him all mysterious and masked and stuff. Maybe they didn't have to pay the actor who played him.

Maybe when you buy the King Ezekiel wig from "Walking Dead" they also give you some free zombie latex. Still waiting for Carl's hat to show up.

[proserpina65]

12 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Not very honorable and worthy of of somebody who wants to be king.

Does anyone actually think Daemon is honorable?  The general consensus among the lords at court is that he'd be a terrible king.

12 hours ago, magdalene said:

You misunderstand my point.  I was referring to Daemon and Rhaenyra as the two Targ dragons of this show.  Worthy to be called a dragon, you know? And then I dissed Viserys by saying he isn't a dragon.

It doesn't seem like people think of the Targaryens quite like that on this show.  I guess because dragons actually exist in this world but didn't in GOT's first season.

11 hours ago, Chyromaniac said:

I didn’t have a problem with the idea that the Crabfeeder War could go on for two-ish years.  First off, it feels like from the format of the show in general that so far we’re getting a snapshot view of this era of history, focusing on the key moments.  Second- production values aside, this is just a TV show.  Just because they’ve shot the Crabfeeder scenes at the same beach, I don’t think that’s meant to suggest that they’ve been fighting at those specific caves this whole time.  Clearly CF had additional resources and support to sustain his attacks on Westerosi ships.

Finally, the nature of this war provided  Corlys and Daemon with challenges that they seemed unprepared to address.  For one thing, it’s not particularly clear on the show, but this war is happening really far away for them.  Like, I kind of wish they had stuck with the pop-up map for the credits, because it at least gave some sense of distance.  In this case, Corlys is lord of Driftmark, an island near Dragonstone at the outer edge of Blackwater Bay.  Meanwhile, the Stepstones are all the way down off the tip of Dorne.  So not only are they having to maintain a long supply chain just to stay in the war, they are by default fighting on CF’s home turf.  Also, CF’s forces are locals who probably view their piracy as defending their territory against foreign intruders.  And of course, C&D are fighting this war on their own, using only the resources at their direct disposal - ships, dragons  and gold cloaks.  That may work in some battlegrounds- but against an entrenched, motivated native enemy with a topographical advantage?  It’s no wonder they were basically at a standstill.

I wish more of that info would've been in the show because it does explain a bit why the war's been going on for so long.

[Helena Dax]

Don't think I've seen anyone commenting on this, but I just noticed the parallel between Daemon covered on the Crabfeeder's blood and Rhaenyra covered on the boar's blood. They also like to solve their problems in person, ignoring the king's orders: she went to retrieve the dragon egg and he risked his own life in order to defeat the Crabfeeder, which he did in one-on-one combat. She's not as chaotic as him, but they have a lot in common!

[ICantDoThatDave]

45 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

That was a brilliant strategy for taking down the Crab Feeder and his pirates.  Sure, not really acceptable in modern warfare, but for a medieval-based society, it was fairly standard.  But it really shouldn't have taken them 3 years to come up with something that effective.

Not if you really think about it.

"Ok guys - I've got a plan. I'm gonna approach by myself & fake surrender, then when one guy approaches, attack him!"

"Wait, what if they send like a dozen guys to capture you?"

"They won't. I've got the script right here. Ok, so I start attacking the whole army by myself. Dodging a billion arrows while the guys with swords all come at me one-at-a-time."

"What if one of them gets you, or you can't dodge a billion arrows, or more than one attacks at once?"

"Have you seen my plot armor? No way that happens. Ok, so I take an arrow or two, not vital, just shallow wounds of course, then I wait for like  the entire army to come out of the caves & surround me."

"Why would the entire army come out? Why not just a dozen guys?"

"Well, the source material says the Crab People die at this point, so they have to."

"Ok, I'm convinced - let's do this!"

[proserpina65]

14 minutes ago, ICantDoThatDave said:

Not if you really think about it.

To be honest, I was being snarky, but I really love your take on the plan. 😃

[Guest]

12 hours ago, rtms77 said:

. How did the Crab king inflict so much damage? Was it because none of the knights had ever seen war? Inexperience? Dragons applied smartly, along with a well trained navy and ground forces should have defeated these pirates quickly. 

I think this was foreshadowed during the tournament when the Queen that Mever Was commented on how none of the knights would do well in a war.

[WatchrTina]

I just watched and I'm going to pose this question/comment before I go read all the prior comments (in the hopes that one of you will have already clarified this point for me.)

I genuinely do not know who rode in on a dragon to save Daemon but I'm GUESSING it's the young male Velaryon we met in an earlier episode.  

No, wait, that can't be right -- Velaryons have ships and are NOT dragon riders, right?  

Okay then back to square one.  I hope one of you can clarify for me:

1. WHO rode in on dragon-back at the end with an army behind them and saved Daemon's life?
2. Was Daemon IN on the plan or was he in the middle of committing suicide by surrender to an insane adversary when the Targaryen army arrived?

Quote

So it took them how many years to figure out a strategy to get the Crab Eaters out of the caves?

Oh is THAT what was going on?  Daemon was pretending to be reckless/suicidal and defeated so that the Crab Eaters would leave the caves, leaving themselves vulnerable to the reserve troops who were waiting to swoop in.  Huh.  Daemon is smarter (and braver) than I gave him credit for.

17 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

 It was cool of [Viserys] to give her the choice of the husband she will want, but I am sure he will have to walk that back next episode. 

I totally agree.  In this world marriages among the nobility are political arrangements so the idea that the Crown Princess would be permitted to make her own choice seems unlikely.  I have NOT read the books but I'm betting the King's new father-in-law will soon be whispering in the King's ear about the unfortunate need to insist upon a political marriage for Rhaenyra (to a lord whose lands are conveniently far from Kings' Landing, to which she can be banished when the inevitable change in the line of succession happens.)

Edited September 5, 2022 by WatchrTina

[ybrik]

Upon rewatching the episode again, I am really interested in the brief showings of the Strongs. Based on how he tries to advise the King, it almost seems like the Strongs are like the southern Starks. The father trying to give true and honest advise to his King. However, we also see his youngest son with the club foot hanging around all the ladies of realm as they discuss the goings on. We also get a brief look at another son I assume when Rhaenyra comes back from the hunt definitely giving her an appreciative look. They definitely seem like they may be up to something but not sure what or maybe they really are just loyal subjects. 

The dragon rider was Corlys son Leanor that was being mentioned to marry Rhaenyra. The Velaryons were not dragon riders previously but Laenor is also the son of Rhaenys so he also has Targ blood so he gets his dragon riding blood from his mom. 

Also about the Targs not having as many incestuous relationships as it was made out to be in GOT, I think you also got to remember that is almost another 200 years later. Right now this is their first 100 years of their reign, it seems like they are trying to build alliances to strengthen themselves in Westeros. However, I think it is the events that come out of this that are probably going to be why they may ending up having more incestuous relations in the future. They decide best to keep the power inside the family to prevent outsiders from trying to take it.

[WatchrTina]

16 hours ago, Constantinople said:

So Daemon, and by extension Corlys, are the kind of guys that will waive a flag of surrender as a ruse? And people wonder why Daemon has a bad reputation.

Or . . . is Daemon the kind of sneaky/suspicious guy who figured that if he waved a flag of truce it would NOT be honored -- who knew he would be attacked instead -- which would then free his men to attack in return?  I've only watched the episode once but I THINK it was the Crab Eater who first broke the rules of the flag of truce.  So Daemon is both smart and a pretty good judge of character (as well as being sneaky and suspicious.)

[cambridgeguy]

48 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I totally agree.  In this world marriages among the nobility are political arrangements so the idea that the Crown Princess would be permitted to make her own choice seems unlikely.  I have NOT read the books but I'm betting the King's new father-in-law will soon be whispering in the King's ear about the unfortunate need to insist upon a political marriage for Rhaenyra (to a lord who's lands are conveniently far from Kings' Landing, to which she can be banished when the inevitable change in the line of succession happens.)

The declared crown princess should really be with no less than the heir to a Great House or the equivalent (the Velaryons, apparently).  Anything else would be marrying down, which is why it's a little surprising Daemon got married to a wife who wasn't from one of them.  There don't seem to be many Targs around and for a long time he and Viserys may have been the only males of their generation.  Otherwise they'd also be mentioned as potential heirs.

[CletusMusashi]

Surrendering or not, MD was still an enemy soldier. I can't really blame them for still being armed when they approached him. I mean, I'm not siding with them, and I assume that they probably would have just nailed him to a post and thrown crabs on him, but they had not yet done anything except show a fairly reasonable amount of skepticism about his intent.

Edited September 5, 2022 by CletusMusashi

[LadyChaos]

I might be in the minority here, but I completely understand why Rhaenyra behaves as she does. She spent the first 15 years of her life knowing that her father didn't view her as enough and that if her mother failed to produce an heir, the throne would go to her uncle.....who by all appearances in the first episode, cared about her more than her own father did.

Then her father sends him away and names her heir, and while her father apologized for not being a better father, she is smart enough to know that she was only named heir because her uncle said some innapropriate things in a brothel that pissed her father off. She is also smart enough to know that her position as the heir is not fully secure, and she is still being treated like the 'poor little woman' instead of the heir. It is likely even though she was 15 in episode 2, that if she was a man she would have been expected to sit at the table and take part in the meeting and voice an opinion in an effort to learn about ruling, instead she is just the cup barer to the table and when she voiced her option she was sent out of the room to handle a task they felt more fitting her place, at even which the Hand tried to strong arm her into picking a candidate for political reasons over skill.

She also had to know that if she were a boy, that her taking the dragon and flying to Dragonstone to confront her Uncle, would've been accepted instead of admonished.

Then, though she understood and encouraged her father to marry...to find out that he was marrying Alicent Hightower....must have left her questioning her entire friendship with Alicent. Wondering how long, while she considered Alicent her closest friend and confident, was Alicent conspiring with her father, to place her as the next Queen. That must have felt like she could trust no one.

And the moment Alicent gave birth to a son, She knew her chance of remaining heir is tenuous. She spent the next two years watching everyone rally around her half-brother, hearing the whispers, and knowing that her father was wavering in his decision to keep her as heir.....maybe he didn't tell her that, but if the audience saw him waiver, she did too.....even in the end of the episode, though he said he still has no plans to replace her as heir, she is smart enough to know that there are likely many years before he dies that he can be persuaded to change his mind. And even if he doesn't, that doesn't mean that the high born families will accept her sitting on the Iron throne when she passes. 

So now she is 17, still not being treated like the heir, knows/feels that she cannot talk to anyone, people are conspiring behind her back to undo making her the heir, and is expected to just get married and start popping out children like the good little woman while men handle all the things....so yeah, when she said 'No one is here for me.' I believe her, and I think she earned the right to be a bit broody and angry. Cause honestly, in the back of her mind I imagine she's gotta wonder how long it will be before someone tries to kill her.

Edited September 5, 2022 by LadyChaos

[meep.meep]

16 hours ago, ICantDoThatDave said:

Episode 1: Rhaenyra is 15

Episode 2: We're told 6 months have passed.

Episode 3: Another 3 years have passed.

King: "Powerless over mine own daughter of seven and ten."

Westerosi math is hard.

Westerosi years are weird.  If the seasons can change in length, then so do the years.

These people should be counting their ages in days.

[Lady S.]

17 hours ago, mledawn said:

I was otherwise distracted by the massive orgy tapestry on the wall behind Alicent when Otto was talking to her at the end about making sure her son is named heir.

Ah, good, someone else noticed all the porno tapestries in the royal chambers. I keep forgetting to mention that. Maybe interior decorator was one of Daemon's busy-work jobs before being given command of the goldcloaks.

17 hours ago, iMonrey said:

It didn't look like him. During the battle strategy meeting when they showed him I thought Corlys referred to him as his nephew but maybe that was Corlys' brother? Then the dude riding the dragon looked like some white dude, but maybe I have to go back and watch again.

Yeah, that was Corlys's brother being called uncle and calling him nephew. It was also confusing because I don't think anyone called Laenor by name and he was wearing a helmet on dragonback. But I'm glad to see dragonsaddles and armor for the riders in battle. That was one of many, many things that annoyed me about the choices wrt later seasons Dany.

23 hours ago, ybrik said:

Agree with a previous poster that while the show seemed to focus the entirety of the war on that one beach, it is unlikely all three years were there. Laenor mentions that this was a choke point that the Crab Feeders men had fallen back to. Didn’t mind Daemon surviving at the end because while it was a bit of plot armor. It wasn’t completely illogical for him to survive with how it was set up. The Crab Feeder was only sending a few men at a time at a pace where Daemon could fight one at a time and be able to keep moving to avoid the arrows. It wasn’t until CF sent out more men where Daemon had to slow down and ended up getting shot. I think the white flag thing will be like all things with Daemon, it will depend on what you already think of Daemon. In Westeros, those who aren’t opposed to him will probably see him going out on his own as heroic while those already against him will see faking the white flag as disgraceful.  

I can also buy that Daemon is a good warrior but a mediocre strategist and wouldn't care about dragging the war out when he has nothing else going on in his life. I'm sure he also wanted to slay the Crabfeeder himself and finding some way to defeat them by sealing up the caves would not appeal to him. It was only when he learned Viserys thought he'd lose without royal help that he had a fire lit under him and incentive to end the fighting for good. There were multiple islands mentioned in the ep like Bloodstone and Dwarfstone

14 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

The declared crown princess should really be with no less than the heir to a Great House or the equivalent (the Velaryons, apparently).  Anything else would be marrying down, which is why it's a little surprising Daemon got married to a wife who wasn't from one of them.  There don't seem to be many Targs around and for a long time he and Viserys may have been the only males of their generation.  Otherwise they'd also be mentioned as potential heirs.

House Royce is a near equivalent as the most powerful of the Arryn bannermen. And given that the Targs' first choice is marrying within the family, anything else would be a big step down for them. As Viserys said, they don't really think of needing outside strength. The Velaryon kids' real perk is their blood, already half-Targ through Rhaenys and still Valyrian through Corlys. His wealth and ships are an added bonus, made especially valuable by circumstances of the war. 

15 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Oh is THAT what was going on?  Daemon was pretending to be reckless/suicidal and defeated so that the Crab Eaters would leave the caves, leaving themselves vulnerable to the reserve troops who were waiting to swoop in.  Huh.  Daemon is smarter (and braver) than I gave him credit for.

Yeah, that was the exact plan Laenor suggested, saying Daemon would be the one brave enough to be bait. He was still suicidally reckless since as noted, the dragon swooped down in the very last moment before he could be killed, and it was plot armor protecting him. Dying victoriously in a last charge would have seemed better to him than being saved by Viserys.

Speaking of arrogant dicks, was drunk Viserys even aware he'd made a pun saying of Lord Lannister that "that man's pride has pride"? (Get it, lions and their pride.) Saying Lord Strong's (non-crippled) son was the strongest knight was too much for me, though.

Fitting that the Lannister lord provided the killing spear for the royal stag and was so eager to see it dead. With all the other ancestral characters, maybe that boar who attacked Rhaenyra was somehow related to the one that ended up killing Robert.

ETA: Rhaenyra saying a man would not content her and being sullen and heartbroken for 3 years can be further fodder for all you Rhaenicent shippers.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Lady S.

[gingerella]

16 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

But still, it didn't look like there was fresh water. Even if there was, there certainly was no food. So this would have been a matter of days, maybe a few months at the most. They made it out like Daemon and Corlys might lose, but I saw no indication of that. You could hold the cave entrances with a minimal number of men and two dragons easily and just starve the crab feeder out.

Also, didn't their current maesters have the know all to make the green flaming pig shite? So many ways to flush out the crabbies, like can't a dragon create a giant hole on top of where the crabbies are and roast them alive? It's seriously bad strategery on the part of Daemon and Coryls.

Anyone thinking Rhanerys and the Knight are destined to get it on?

[WatchrTina]

18 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Also, didn't their current maesters have the know all to make the green flaming pig shite?

I think we have to presume that the Maesters of the Citadel have not yet discovered the secret of manufacturing Wildfire. (Or if they already know how to make it they have not yet decided to offer it up to the current king.)  I seem to recall that it is during the reign of "Mad" King Aerys (a descendent of the King in this tale) that the stockpile of Wildfire is manufactured and stored.

[mac123x]

I don't watch the after-show features, but apparently the show runners confirmed that the Crab Feeder had greyscale.  They need to stop adding information like this, since it undermines their story.  Given how communicable and deadly greyscale is, I find it hard to believe that CF would be the leader of any group of people.

1 hour ago, Lady S. said:

But I'm glad to see dragonsaddles and armor for the riders in battle.

I like that Laenor leans forward on his like he's riding a racing motorcycle.  Lower profile for a smaller archery target.  Meanwhile, Rhaenyra rids Syrax like she's on a show horse.

[Constantinople]

2 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Or . . . is Daemon the kind of sneaky/suspicious guy who figured that if he waved a flag of truce it would NOT be honored -- who knew he would be attacked instead -- which would then free his men to attack in return?  I've only watched the episode once but I THINK it was the Crab Eater who first broke the rules of the flag of truce.  So Daemon is both smart and a pretty good judge of character (as well as being sneaky and suspicious.)

Daemon pulled out a dagger then stabbed the guy who had accepted Daemon's sword as a sign of Daemon's surrender 

[RobertDeSneero]

5 hours ago, Silver-hyren said:

My impression of the show so far has been a very strong “Meh” but I will give this episode credit for making me feel sympathy for Viserys.  He’s not a good king and isn’t suited to the role (the show hasn’t been subtle about that and the scene with the stag just hammered that home).  Thing is, he knows this.  He’s not a bad person (as far as “good” and “bad” are defined in GoT land).  He’s trying his best for the most part to do what he thinks is right.  Unfortunately, he gets it wrong most times.  He misses his wife, whom he actually loved, but wants to enjoy his second chance at happiness.  He knows his brother would make a worse king, so wants to protect the people from him.  He loves his daughter and wants her to be happy but their relationship is also strained by his role as king.  The scene by the bonfire was very “Heavy is the head that wears the crown.”

His problem is that Rhaenyra is so much like her uncle--headstrong, impetuous, and temperamental--that, like Daemon, she is unsuited to be a ruler.  If I were the writer, this is the direction I would go in, showing that her cause is just while also showing that she shouldn't be queen, an implicit criticism of monarchic succession.  I think Viserys knows this on some level, but he won't admit to naming his daughter his heir being a mistake, unless she does something to provoke him the way Daemon did by joking about the "heir for a day".  

I fear we are in for a long series about unlikeable people fighting over the throne.  Imagine Game of Thrones, but with no Starks to be sympathetic towards.  If your most likable claimants are Cersei and Stannis, with every other option worse, who do you root for?

[magdalene]

3 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Daemon pulled out a dagger then stabbed the guy who had accepted Daemon's sword as a sign of Daemon's surrender 

Yes, and it was awesome!  Besides, given the way these people treated their prisoners they didn't deserve any kind of honorable terms. Daemon was what they deserved.