S01.E03: Second Of His Name

[Guest]

Quote

Episode Synopsis: 

Daemon and the Sea Snake battle the Crabfeeder. The realm celebrates Aegon’s second nameday. Rhaenyra faces the prospect of marriage.

Reminder: 

This is for discussion of the TV show only, no book talk allowed - including saying "but it's different in the books". Any other spoilers (previews, media articles, etc) and HotD extras (After The Episode, Behind The Scenes, etc) should be in spoiler tags.

[mac123x]

I really enjoyed how every conversation with one of the Lannister brothers ended with an implicit "now fuck off". 

"Thank you for the wine."

"Thank you for the gift."

[AimingforYoko]

I have to say, with Ned in the back of my mind, the thought that we might lose Matt Smith in the third episode did pop up. I should've known better. Even injured, he probably made short work of the crab-feeder.

And I feel ya Rhaenyra, but two years is a long time to be moping about.

[AntFTW]

Well, the Lannister men certainly come on very strong.

[CletusMusashi]

2 minutes ago, AimingforYoko said:

I have to say, with Ned in the back of my mind, the thought that we might lose Matt Smith in the third episode did pop up. I should've known better. Even injured, he probably made short work of the crab-feeder.

And I feel ya Rhaenyra, but two years is a long time to be moping about.

Not me. I kept thinking Viserys was gonna die.

[edhopper]

So it took them how many years to figure out a strategy to get the Crab Eaters out of the caves? That is some bad generaling,

[Constantinople]

Lord Jason Lannister is even more arrogant than Ser Hugh of the Vale.

[Lady Whistleup]

I understand Rhaenyra being upset, but Alicent seems like a pretty decent stepmother, all things considered.

[DrSpaceman73]

I reiterate the show still needs more than the usual king succession women forced to marry for power clichéd stuff we've all seen before to sustain it long term.  

4 minutes ago, edhopper said:

So it took them how many years to figure out a strategy to get the Crab Eaters out of the caves? That is some bad generaling,

And it took the king 3 years to make a decision on what to do as well. 

I think we will find out the Ned stark must be a relative of his

[Lady S.]

Identical twin Lannisters this time. Now that won't get confusing, I'm sure.

13 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Lord Jason Lannister is even more arrogant than Ser Hugh of the Vale.

This is just like when Tommen 2.0 was the same actor who played one of the cousins murdered at Riverrun the season before. (The Lannisters twins/Ser Hugh actor was also Torstein on Vikings. He's using a different name now, but IMDb says it's the same person.)

I know boys' puberty growth spurts are sudden and weird but that is still a huge change for Laenor Velaryon from the pilot to now. Some soap-opera kinda aging to have suddenly him looking older than Rhaenyra while her actress is still the same. (My theory is they want Rhaenyra still looking young when/if Daemon starts outright hitting on her.)

The pilot showed us what a royal tourney looks like with a bigger budget. Now we see what a royal hunt should look like, not just Robert and Renly wandering on foot in the woods with just Lancel and Barristan.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Lady S.

[magdalene]

There are two Targaryan dragons on this show so far and Viserys is not one of them. To the last minute I kept begging at the screen, "please spare that stag, killing it makes you look pathetic".  But of course he killed the defenseless creature.  He is pathetic. He can die now.

When I saw the preview for this episode I did think this won't be easy they can just retreat to the caves, and I was right.

I am a Daemon fan despite and because of who he is.  And he showed me why that is at the end. That was beyond bad ass.

[Constantinople]

Viserys: Jason Lannister is an excellent match.

Rhaenyra: He's arrogant and self-serious.

Viserys: Well I thought you might have that in common.

Burn!

And people say this show has no sense of humor.

[Roccos Brother]

This is probably an unpopular opinion but I think the whole "dragon shows up in the nick of time" is a lazy plot device, and I really hope they don't continue to overuse it. We've already seen it two episodes in a row.

[DrSpaceman73]

None of the kings council is interesting or that intelligent

[Stardancer Supreme]

Well. Viserys let that Stepstones War go on for 3 years when he could have ended it with just one of the Dragon Riders?  I know he wouldn't have let Rhaenyra go with them, but there are other ones besides her.  Who are they?  I'm also going to have to ding Corlys and his people for poor war waging; if the Crabfeeder is able to go underground in caves, why not figure out how to collapse the caves and entomb the men?  And it took you 3 years to simply send someone to the caves to draw the Crabfeeder and his men out?  Yeesh. Daemon didn't have to nearly kill the messenger, though. 

Man, all Viserys wanted to do was celebrate his son's 2nd birthday.  The Realm just won't let him live.  Heh.  

Nice to know that Lannisters are as slimy as usual. 

So now Viserys is annoyed with having to marry his daughter off. He should have been able to talk to her about it sensibly, but he burnt Rhaenyra with the Alicent stunt.  "My daughter is difficult!" You made her that way, Viserys. It was cool of him to give her the choice of the husband she will want, but I am sure he will have to walk that back next episode.  How gross of Otto to suggest betrothing Rhaenrya to her toddler half brother.  I like how that Lord told Viserys that he will have to eventually make things right with Corlys; he didn't marry Laena, so have Rhaenyra marry Laenor instead. I wonder why that couldn't have been an option before? 

The white hart showing itself to Rhaenyra and Ser Crispin? Viserys would have had several cows himself if he knew of that.  I was thinking that she would be the one to kill it and bring it back to camp instead of the boar.

[RobertDeSneero]

3 minutes ago, Roccos Brother said:

This is probably an unpopular opinion but I think the whole "dragon shows up in the nick of time" is a lazy plot device, and I really hope they don't continue to overuse it. We've already seen it two episodes in a row.

Dragon showing up as obviously planned this episode is not a lazy plot device.  When the dragon shows up, the Crabfeeder's people go hide in the caves.  The goal here was to use Daimon to draw them out of the caves far enough and long enough to use the dragon on them.  The question was whether Daimon could survive long enough for the dragon to do its thing.

Dragons are such an overpowered weapon that the show has to work to create credible threats from people who don't have dragons against people who do have dragons in direct military combat.

[dramachick]

I'm bored by Rhaenyra. Hopefully, we won't have to suffer much longer through her sulking teenager stage. They haven't yet shown us if she has a particular talent or strength beyond thinking she's smarter than everybody else, which is reminiscent of Cercei. 

I find Alicent far more interesting and complex. She has to do EVERYTHING! She obeys her father and manipulates the king into making decisions that Otto deems the correct ones. She gives birth to a son and gets pregnant again. She acts as mediator between Viserys and Rhaenyra as she maneuvers to make sure her son is heir, but provides enough nuance to show that she really does care about Rhaenerya. The difference between the two of them, of course, is that Alicent as mastered the art of soft power. Rhaenyra hasn't shown interest in learning how to use soft power to ensure that she ultimately attains the hard power to which she is entitled as the king's named heir.

It's hard for me to root for Daemon because I believe too many people would suffer with him as king. He's a bully. 

I did not expect to see Spencer from Waking the Dead as Corlys's brother! Come on down, Wil Johnson!

The battle scenes would have been more meaningful to me if the show had provided some background on the Crab-Feeder dude. Daemon was brave and strong and all that, but I knew he would win versus a villain in a mask who never said a word.  During that scene, I thought about a conversation between Jorah and Daenerys about some Targaryan relative that she was bragging about. Jorah said something like, "Targaryon was strong; Targaryon was brave; Targaryon got killed."

[SeanC]

17 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

And it took the king 3 years to make a decision on what to do as well.

I don't think that's true. His decision was to let Corlys and Daemon wage their private little war (which, in Daemon's case especially, was what he wanted anyway). The question of intervention only really became pressing when it looked like they were on the verge of failure.

[Lady Whistleup]

1 minute ago, dramachick said:

I find Alicent far more interesting and complex. She has to do EVERYTHING! She obeys her father and manipulates the king into making decisions that Otto deems the correct ones. She gives birth to a son and gets pregnant again. She acts as mediator between Viserys and Rhaenyra as she maneuvers to make sure her son is heir, but provides enough nuance to show that she really does care about Rhaenerya. The difference between the two of them, of course, is that Alicent as mastered the art of soft power. Rhaenyra hasn't shown interest in learning how to use soft power to ensure that she ultimately attains the hard power to which she is entitled as the king's named heir.

That's a good analysis. It's also foreshadowing for Dany as Dany always used hard power to get what she wanted. Seems that's a Targaryen trait.

[Jaundiced Eye]

I'm confused about where the third dragon came from. And who was riding it? Was it one of the Sea Snake's relatives? That family line can also ride dragons, not just the Targaryens?

[magdalene]

13 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

None of the kings council is interesting or that intelligent

What's his name Harwin Strong gives good advice to the king. And while I loathe him Otto ain't stupid.

[Jaundiced Eye]

That poor stag being tied by its antlers so Viserys could slaughter it really drove home how weak the king is. I assume that other kings actually hunted beasts, as opposed to the charade we watched.

[Roccos Brother]

8 minutes ago, RobertDeSneero said:

Dragon showing up as obviously planned this episode is not a lazy plot device. 

Yes, they planned it to take place EXACTLY at the moment when Daemon was completely surrounded, wounded, tension was at its highest, and the audience was manipulated into thinking it might be the end for him. Not a minute sooner, not a minute later. That's exactly how it happens in real life too. 

[thuganomics85]

Glad to get some significant scenes with Lannister ancestors!  Who were easy to spot because, as Rhaenyra pretty much pointed out, they are not shy about showing off those lion sigils.  I really do love how extra that entire family is.  If they were ever transported to the real world, they would be that rich family who are always preening on the red carpets, probably have multiple reality shows, and always be advertising their logo and name-dropping their products to any poor sod that's within ear-shot!

For all of the major flaws Viserys has, I do continue to love how unnerved he gets with the way everyone else has normalized all of the creepy politicking.  Otto's already proposing a marriage between his grandson and Rhaenyra (who are half-siblings, of course, but that's just the Targaryen way!), and Viserys is understandably all "For Gods sake, Otto, he's only two!" about it.  In some ways, I think he's a decent person (or could have been one), but he never should have been named king and this position has made him become a worse man.  Dude should have just stayed a noble and spent his days playing with his crafts and models.

While I do feel for Rhaenyra, I did get a kick out of Alicent finally having enough and pulling rank when it came to the bard.  Rhaenyra all "The princess commands he keeps playing my favorite song!", only for Alicent to be all "Well, the QUEEN says he can fuck right off now!" about it.

The Crabfeeder and his ilk really held off Daemon and the Sea Snakes for three years simply by hiding in caves?  Would have figured there would have been an easy way to flush them out or even just entomb them for good.  Kind of question the Velaryons strategic minds here.  Of course, it doesn't matter now because after Viserys finally gets off his ass and is willing to send aid, Daemon hilariously is like "NO!  I will not let my stupid brother get any glory here!  Time to make myself a pawn, baby!" instead.  And one can say what they will about Daemon being more willingly to risk his life instead of accept aid from his brother, but he apparently has the talent to back it up!

Lord Strong is giving me some Varys vibes, with the way he is able to get sound advice and avoid pissing off the king (and others) with the way he approaches things.  A good trait to have.

[AntFTW]

41 minutes ago, CletusMusashi said:

Not me. I kept thinking Viserys was gonna die.

I kinda still think he will by the end of the season.

[Stardancer Supreme]

On 9/4/2022 at 10:45 PM, Jaundiced Eye said:

I'm confused about where the third dragon came from. And who was riding it? Was it one of the Sea Snake's relatives? That family line can also ride dragons, not just the Targaryens?

That was a second dragon ridden by an unnamed Dragon Rider we haven't met yet.  The only other dragon shown tonight was Daemon's.

I have now been informed that this was Laenor Velaryon and his dragon Sea Smoke.  There was only Caraxes and Sea Smoke in this episode (Dragon Watch! Heh).

Edited September 9, 2022 by Stardancer Supreme

[Broderbits]

3 minutes ago, Jaundiced Eye said:

That poor stag being tied by its antlers so Viserys could slaughter it really drove home how weak the king is. I assume that other kings actually hunted beasts, as opposed to the charade we watched.

Well, you really can't have a drunken king stumbling around the forest with a spear! Viserys is so unfocused and ineffectual it's no wonder Otto thinks himself superior.

I loved the precision dragon/drone attack, excellent flying there.

[AimingforYoko]

I did enjoy Viserys' hearty laugh at Otto's suggestion of two year-old Aegon as a match for Rhaenyra.

[CatWarmer]

1 minute ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

That was a second dragon ridden by an unnamed Dragon Rider we haven't met yet.  The only other dragon shown tonight was Daemon's.

13 minutes ago, Jaundiced Eye said:

I'm confused about where the third dragon came from. And who was riding it? Was it one of the Sea Snake's relatives? That family line can also ride dragons, not just the Targaryens?

That was Ser Laenor Velaryon, the son of Corlys and Rhaeny, who we earlier saw in conference on the hill.  I have read that his dragon is named Seasmoke.  And yes, the Velaryons are related to the Targaryens and can ride dragons.

[SeanC]

15 minutes ago, Jaundiced Eye said:

I'm confused about where the third dragon came from. And who was riding it? Was it one of the Sea Snake's relatives? That family line can also ride dragons, not just the Targaryens?

3 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

That was a second dragon ridden by an unnamed Dragon Rider we haven't met yet.  The only other dragon shown tonight was Daemon's.

That was Ser Laenor, Corlys and Rhaenys' son, who we saw in the war council scenes earlier.

He can ride a dragon because his mother is a Targaryen.

[Lady S.]

1 minute ago, Jaundiced Eye said:

I'm confused about where the third dragon came from. And who was riding it? Was it one of the Sea Snake's relatives? That family line can also ride dragons, not just the Targaryens?

13 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Well. Viserys let that Stepstones War go on for 3 years when he could have ended it with just one of the Dragon Riders?  I know he wouldn't have let Rhaenyra go with them, but there are other ones besides her.  Who are they?  

That was Ser Laenor Velaryon, son of Princess Rhaenys. He turned into a grown-ass man in the 3.5 years since the pilot. Needlessly confusing when they could have had a teen actor riding on dragonback. Presumably the Queen Who Never Was has a dragon too, if her children can claim them, as she was the one raised as a Targ by name.

17 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

The white hart showing itself to Rhaenyra and Ser Crispin?

Forgot to say I love that bit of obvious symbolism about who's meant to be king. Even more on the nose than Viserys breaking his toy dragon last week. The house of the dragon is already cracking and Alicent can't really fix it.

6 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

Glad to get some significant scenes with Lannister ancestors!  Who were easy to spot because, as Rhaenyra pretty much pointed out, they are not shy about showing off those lion sigils.  I really do love how extra that entire family is.  If they were ever transported to the real world, they would be that rich family who are always preening on the red carpets, probably have multiple reality shows, and always be advertising their logo and name-dropping their products to any poor sod that's within ear-shot!

They couldn't marry into the Targ family so later they just replaced and imitated them in incest.

[Athena5217]

4 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

The Crabfeeder and his ilk really held off Daemon and the Sea Snakes for three years simply by hiding in caves?  Would have figured there would have been an easy way to flush them out or even just entomb them for good.

Not just hold them off—somehow Daemon and Corlys were losing to a guy who hides in caves and stands around looking at the sky while everyone else fights. I’m no Master of War or Master of Ships, but this does not make sense to me.

Poor Alicent looks like she could go into labor at any moment, and her dad still wants her to do his work for him. 

Viserys was driving me nuts moving back and forth when talking to Alicent  in front of the bonfire. I didn’t see the point of that. 

[Stardancer Supreme]

10 minutes ago, SeanC said:

That was Ser Laenor, Corlys and Rhaenys' son, who we saw in the war council scenes earlier.

He can ride a dragon because his mother is a Targaryen.

Oh. They surely didn't make that clear. Why wasn't it mentioned that Laenor had a dragon? Now I really question Corlys and his war strategies! You had 2 dragons and couldn't exterminate the Crabs? Sigh.

ETA: Or was Laenor riding Daemon's dragon? I will have to watch that sequence again.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Stardancer Supreme

[Constantinople]

I was disappointed with all the build up about the Crab Feeder only for it to all be over in a few minutes and to have the Crab Feeder killed offscreen. And has been noted, why did it take three years?

So Daemon, and by extension Corlys, are the kind of guys that will waive a flag of surrender as a ruse? And people wonder why Daemon has a bad reputation.

[Jaundiced Eye]

The Daemon against the world battle scene had me flashing back to Jon Snow's epic warrior scene. Daemon really brought it, but how he managed to survive left me shaking my head.

[RobertDeSneero]

1 minute ago, Constantinople said:

And has been noted, why did it take three years?

It took three years because Daemon's strategy was "I haz dragons" and the Crabfeeder's strategy was "I can hide in the caves whenever you bring your dragons out".

Daemon can handle a problem where brute force gets the job done, but he's unsuited to be king because he is incapable of strategy and nuance.

[Constantinople]

22 minutes ago, Jaundiced Eye said:

That poor stag being tied by its antlers so Viserys could slaughter it really drove home how weak the king is. I assume that other kings actually hunted beasts, as opposed to the charade we watched.

The scene reminded me of George Orwell's essay Shooting An Elephant in which the narrator, a Brtish police officer, shoots the elephant not because he has any particular desire to, but because he doesn't want to look weak or lose face in front of the natives.

[magdalene]

6 minutes ago, Jaundiced Eye said:

The Daemon against the world battle scene had me flashing back to Jon Snow's epic warrior scene. Daemon really brought it, but how he managed to survive left me shaking my head.

Important characters always have plot armor in fiction. How did Jon Snow survive all.

[WaltersHair]

Well, at least Daemon knows how to bob and weave, unlike the Stark kid who ran in a straight line.

And I think I laughed too hard when the guy being nailed to wood was so happy to see his prince only to be squashed like bug.

[Constantinople]

Just now, magdalene said:

Important characters always have plot armor in fiction. How did Jon Snow survive all.

To be fair Jon was dead for the first couple of episodes of Season 6 of Game of Thrones.

[Jaundiced Eye]

Thanks to all for clearing some of the haze. I'm going to have to prepare a cheat sheet going forward. I'm struggling with the characters' names and bloodlines, never mind the dragons. 

[dramachick]

9 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

To be fair Jon was dead for the first couple of episodes of Season 6 of Game of Thrones.

And he had Ghost!🐺

[mledawn]

The missing two fingers on the King's hand was a nice continuity touch.

[mac123x]

38 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Oh. They surely didn't make that clear. Why wasn't it mentioned that Laenor had a dragon? Now I really question Corlys and his war strategies! You had 2 dragons and couldn't exterminate the Crabs? Sigh.

ETA: Or was Laenor riding Daemon's dragon? I will have to watch that sequence again.

Laenor was riding his own dragon.  Daemon's dragon Caraxes has a distinctively long neck, plus the one Laenor was riding was smaller and chalky white.

[AntFTW]

42 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

ETA: Or was Laenor riding Daemon's dragon? I will have to watch that sequence again.

I... don't... know...

I'd have to go back and rewatch also.

[peridot]

It seems the theme of this episode is that Viserys is always a day late and a dollar short.  Why did it take him three years to assure Rhaenyra that he wouldn't change her status?  It seems his motto is to ignore, ignore until it can't be ignored anymore.  A poor strategy for a king.

It was cool seeing a guy from Vikings on this show.  At first, I was confused about his hair differences until Rhaenrya clarified that he was a twin. 

Viserys is a weak king, I was embarrassed for him when he shouted at his daughter in front of all of those people.  I wasn't really a fan of Rhaenyra this episode either.  She runs off in a snit and almost got herself and Cole killed by a wild animal. 

That poor messenger!  Did the crab pirate have grayscale?  I was wondering if Daemon was infected since he got all the blood on him and was touching the pirate's skin.

[ICantDoThatDave]

Episode 1: Rhaenyra is 15

Episode 2: We're told 6 months have passed.

Episode 3: Another 3 years have passed.

King: "Powerless over mine own daughter of seven and ten."

Westerosi math is hard.

[magdalene]

4 minutes ago, mledawn said:

The missing two fingers on the King's hand was a nice continuity touch.

The throne is eating him alive. Serves him right. Stag butcher.

Somebody up thread was saying Daemon's side wasn't following the rules of war with the fake white flag surrender. Boohoo. They were fighting against people who were torturing people to death being eaten alive by crabs. "Civilized" war fare is a big lie.

[Constantinople]

I get that Rhaenyra didn't want to harm the white hart, but maybe don't tell Ser Criston "No" when he's drawing his sword as a simple precaution. You selected him because he has real world experience and isn't just a tourney knight; you were almost killed by a wild boar the night before; and the white hart is much larger than the boar. So maybe let Ser Criston do his job?

Rhaenyra shouldn't need to watch the Game of Thrones pilot to know that a charging stag is incredibly dangerous.

[Constantinople]

6 minutes ago, magdalene said:

Somebody up thread was saying Daemon's side wasn't following the rules of war with the fake white flag surrender. Boohoo. They were fighting against people who were torturing people to death being eaten alive by crabs. "Civilized" war fare is a big lie.

When you don't honor a surrender, whether you're the person "surrendering" or the person "accepting the surrender", people no longer have any reason to trust you and will fairly conclude you're willing to do anything.

Daemon has now lowered himself to Ramsay Bolton's level.