S01.E10: A Quality Of Mercy

[Maverick]

 It's mentioned in Doctor Bashir, I Presume that genetics engineering is banned other than to correct serious genetic flaws so it's not 100% outlawed.  

 As for euthanasia, it seems to be non-existent in the Federation.  In Death Wish, Janeway is looking for legal justification to allow Quinn to kill himself and all she can come up with is a Bolian law about suffering.  The Federation is supposedly made up of over 100 hundred worlds and I can't believe only one of them allows people to end their suffering.  If nothing else, I would expect the Vulcans to have some logical way to justify it. 

[marinw]

4 hours ago, Maverick said:

The Federation is supposedly made up of over 100 hundred worlds and I can't believe only one of them allows people to end their suffering. 

In "Ethics", Worf enlists Riker to help in end his life, but Riker talks him out of it. So the Klingons allow it, which isn't surpriseing.

Edited July 14, 2022 by marinw

[Catfi9ht]

14 hours ago, Affogato said:

More like a trans athlete, perhaps, and less like a drug. 

I completely disagree. Trans athletes do not have a competitive advantage of cis athletes. There are no physiological differences between trans and cis athletes.

Una was able to pick up a grown person and carry him on her shoulder with ease which without genetic engineering would have been physiologically impossible for her to do. IMO, the performance enhancing drug is more apt.

[Affogato]

2 hours ago, Catfi9ht said:

I completely disagree. Trans athletes do not have a competitive advantage of cis athletes. There are no physiological differences between trans and cis athletes.

Una was able to pick up a grown person and carry him on her shoulder with ease which without genetic engineering would have been physiologically impossible for her to do. IMO, the performance enhancing drug is more apt.

People who are born male but who are now female are often perceived  to have an advantage in some competitive sports over people who are born female and are now female. So this seems like a better analogy than drugs, and we can see it playing out in the real world. i don’t know how ‘cis’ got into it. 

Una isn’t strong because of a strength potion  

[Catfi9ht]

Just now, Affogato said:

People who are born male but who are now female are often perceived  to have an advantage in some competitive sports

Perceived is the key word. There is no actual, real, scientific physiological advantage for trans athletes. 

Una's advanced physical strength is real not perceived. 

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, Affogato said:

People who are born male but who are now female are often perceived  to have an advantage in some competitive sports over people who are born female and are now female. So this seems like a better analogy than drugs, and we can see it playing out in the real world. i don’t know how ‘cis’ got into it. 

Una isn’t strong because of a strength potion  

Do you mean that trans athletes are a better comparison to the eugenics ban because people want to ban them over the fear that they have an unfair advantage versus PED where they actually do have a unfair advantage? Or that trans people are more analogous to genetically modified people. I could read to both ways and each way completely changes my opinion of which is a better comparison. 

[Affogato]

19 minutes ago, Catfi9ht said:

Perceived is the key word. There is no actual, real, scientific physiological advantage for trans athletes. 

Una's advanced physical strength is real not perceived. 

 https://m.dw.com/en/fact-check-do-trans-athletes-have-an-advantage-in-elite-sport/a-58583988
 

there has been limited research but there have been some perceptible advantages noticed. I doubt they are relevant under most circumstances, say on a high school soccer team.  

[Catfi9ht]

36 minutes ago, Affogato said:

 https://m.dw.com/en/fact-check-do-trans-athletes-have-an-advantage-in-elite-sport/a-58583988
 

there has been limited research but there have been some perceptible advantages noticed. I doubt they are relevant under most circumstances, say on a high school soccer team.  

The article shows that hormone therapy for trans women actually puts them closer athletically to cis women and reduces the advantage gaps they had prior to receiving hormone therapy. This reinforces my point that there is no physiological advantage for trans women over cis women. 

Comparing Una to transgender athletes would only be apt if Una had super strength and was taking a serum to hide her super strength but was still mildly strong for a human.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Catfi9ht
Adding a show comparison as an example

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, Dani said:

Do you mean that trans athletes are a better comparison to the eugenics ban because people want to ban them over the fear that they have an unfair advantage versus PED where they actually do have a unfair advantage? Or that trans people are more analogous to genetically modified people. I could read to both ways and each way completely changes my opinion of which is a better comparison. 

Well I did not mean trans people are more analogous to genetically modified people, it isn’t a comparison that seems relevant to the issue. Also in Discovery we have established that the Federation has no problem with trans persons and apparently they are really against genetically enhanced persons, so in story this would not make sense, the federation does not feel they are analogous. 
 

i was referring to the situation. 
 

46 minutes ago, Catfi9ht said:

The article shows that hormone therapy for trans women actually puts them closer athletically to cis women and reduces the advantage gaps they had prior to receiving hormone therapy. This reinforces my point that there is no physiological advantage for trans women over cis women. 

Comparing Una to transgender athletes would only be apt if Una had super strength and was taking a serum to hide her super strength but was still mildly strong for a human.

But I wasn’t comparing. Making a direct comparison. I was refining an analogy.  It is different. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Affogato

[Catfi9ht]

9 minutes ago, Affogato said:

But I wasn’t comparing. Making a direct comparison. I was refining an analogy.  It is different. 

I pointed out how the analogy doesn't fit in the context of the situation.

[kay1864]

On 7/13/2022 at 8:53 AM, QuantumMechanic said:

allow into Starfleet people who have had it done you are putting people at a competitive disadvantage for promotions, etc.

By this logic, Starfleet should arrest people who are from higher gravity planets or have a superior educational system.

Like someone above said, this law is punishing Una just for being born.

[Affogato]

13 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

By this logic, Starfleet should arrest people who are from higher gravity planets or have a superior educational system.

Like someone above said, this law is punishing Una just for being born.

Indeed. The story is flat out about how they deal with genetically enhanced individuals and societies. 

48 minutes ago, Catfi9ht said:

I pointed out how the analogy doesn't fit in the context of the situation.

Neither did yours.

I just was saying that if you were going to make an analogy I felt this was more like. It is a kind of word game. And I honestly think the reaction people have to trans athletes is similar to the reaction to having enhanced people like Una. Not in degree.  Someone taking a drug seems neither here nor there unless it is something from the Boys, which is another discussion. 

[Tyro49]

I've thought of a way to rescue Pike after he's gone to Talos 4, in a way that doesn't require him to use the medical care from the planet that uses torturing a child to power their world (I can't remember their name). Do you remember the TOS episode "For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky)? McCoy has come down with some terrible disease that will kill him, and chooses to spend his time with a society traveling within an asteroid. Kirk, Spock, etc. learn that the asteroid will collide with an occupied planet, destroying both societies, so they intervene with the asteroid's running. Anyway, Spock discovers that the people are the descendants of the "Fabrini", who have vast medical knowledge. McCoy is cured and returns to the Enterprise (a simplification of the plot), but maybe there is something in that database that can help Pike (and Vina too, of course), What do you think?

[Quark]

I've just caught up on this show. I like it, but would enjoy it more if there was more of a storyline rather than case by case.

The acting is very good, especially from the Captain and Number One (hope she is alright).

My favourite thing about the show is the music during the beginning and end credits; it's so good!

[Sandman]

On 7/7/2022 at 10:36 PM, cdnalor said:

… I loved the recreation of the Romulan reveal from TOS right down to the theme music. 

I thought the use of the stinger from TOS was nice touch, too. I thought Peck’s lifted eyebrow was well deployed at that moment; Spock’s version of a “Well, shit!” face. 

[Athena5217]

On 7/9/2022 at 12:58 PM, Tyro49 said:

Has anyone watched TOS Balance of Terror for yhe first time after watching this finale? If so, what did you think?

I rewatched Balance of Terror then watched this episode again. I thought this episode was well-done as a loose adaptation of the original. Both episodes highlight something about Kirk we might forget—his ability to think outside the box creates brilliant solutions. We saw this in both episodes a few times with figuring out how to shadow the Romulan ship to avoid detection and detecting them after coming out of the comet. This episode also added using the mining ships to look like an armada. This is why Kirk is the captain of the Enterprise, and why Spock respects him so much.

I like Chris Pine better as Kirk than Paul Wesley. I think Wesley is a little too reserved, but maybe part of that was seeing Kirk through Pike’s eyes instead of having Kirk as the main character.

I loved future Pike wearing the Star Trek 2 era uniform with the quilted turtleneck.

[jah1986]

1 hour ago, Athena5217 said:

I rewatched Balance of Terror then watched this episode again. I thought this episode was well-done as a loose adaptation of the original. 

I’m glad I saw Balance of Terror for the first time after reading others suggestions, then watched this episode. It really was well done in my opinion. I never watched TOS so never thought of Kirk as such a good strategist. I really do not like the new actor playing Kirk, he’s too much of a blank slate.

[shrewd.buddha]

On 7/9/2022 at 12:58 PM, Tyro49 said:

Has anyone watched TOS Balance of Terror for yhe first time after watching this finale?

It would have been a long, long time ago.
Does anyone know if  the complete TOS is available on Paramount+ or some other streaming service? 

[Mr. Sparkle]

1 minute ago, shrewd.buddha said:

Does anyone know if  the complete TOS is available on Paramount+ or some other streaming service? 

I believe all Star Treks are streaming on Paramount+, but I'd have to verify that after work. 

[Llywela]

And for those of us outside the US, all the classic Treks are still available to view on Netflix.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Llywela

[jah1986]

3 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

It would have been a long, long time ago.
Does anyone know if  the complete TOS is available on Paramount+ or some other streaming service? 

I have Paramount+ and all things Star Trek are there. All the movies and tv shows.

[historylover820]

On 7/17/2022 at 3:50 PM, Quark said:

I've just caught up on this show. I like it, but would enjoy it more if there was more of a storyline rather than case by case.

The acting is very good, especially from the Captain and Number One (hope she is alright).

My favourite thing about the show is the music during the beginning and end credits; it's so good!

Not me. I prefer the episodic nature of SNW. People just can't write episodes anymore. They have to be part of a whole storyline, and if a viewer misses one episode, they no longer have any idea what's going on. And there's no other reason for these other episodes except to service the arc.

So, in my case with Discovery, I hate Michael Burnham. I hated her since the pilot episode. I really got irritated when they retconned her to be Spock's foster sister. And since every single arc in that show revolves around Michael, I had to stop watching it for my own sanity. I watched until my favorite character, Tilly, said she was leaving, and then, after that, there was no need for me to continue watching.

This is one of the reasons why it feels more like TOS and why I like it the most of all the nu-Trek shows. That and its humor. And also, for the most part, it's better written than Picard and Discovery.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 7/18/2022 at 8:53 AM, Athena5217 said:

I like Chris Pine better as Kirk than Paul Wesley. I think Wesley is a little too reserved, but maybe part of that was seeing Kirk through Pike’s eyes instead of having Kirk as the main character.

It also could be that the Kirk in this alt-future was more reserved because he never was the captain of the Federation flagship and in this particular situation, had to defer to the actual captain of the Federation flagship. I thought that there was a level of "God, this guy is going to get us all killed with his follow-diplomacy-bullshit" resentment in his performance and the actions that was appropriate. 

[Athena5217]

13 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It also could be that the Kirk in this alt-future was more reserved because he never was the captain of the Federation flagship and in this particular situation, had to defer to the actual captain of the Federation flagship. I thought that there was a level of "God, this guy is going to get us all killed with his follow-diplomacy-bullshit" resentment in his performance and the actions that was appropriate. 

Strange New Worlds is set before Kirk became captain of the Enterprise. It is not an alternate future like the new movies with Chris Pine. This show has dramatically changed the Nurse Chapel character from the original series, but  past events referred to in TOS have not been changed.

I hated the original Nurse Chapel character. She seemed to have no purpose except pining for Spock so I can live with that bit of inconsistency. I just wish new Nurse Chapel would wear the same damn uniform as everyone else.

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 hours ago, Athena5217 said:

Strange New Worlds is set before Kirk became captain of the Enterprise. It is not an alternate future like the new movies with Chris Pine. This show has dramatically changed the Nurse Chapel character from the original series, but  past events referred to in TOS have not been changed.

I hated the original Nurse Chapel character. She seemed to have no purpose except pining for Spock so I can live with that bit of inconsistency. I just wish new Nurse Chapel would wear the same damn uniform as everyone else.

I know that Strange New Worlds is set before Kirk became captain of the Enterprise.

What I meant was this episode, however, had an alternate-timeline Pike show the Strange New Worlds Pike the alternate future where he dodged the fate that awaits him of being hoverchair-bound and barely sentient.

In what ATP showed SNWP, the Kirk was not the Kirk we know and that may explain why this Kirk acted differently in some respects from what we come to expect from Kirk as he has been previously portrayed by Shatner and Pine. (Or it could just be that the current guy wants his own spin on the character or a number of other reasons). I suppose we'll see where he's at when he inevitably shows up again next season or whenever.

In the timeline we are most familiar with, Kirk is the captain of the Enterprise by the time the events of Balance  of Terror from S1 of TOS have rolled around. AP showed SNWP a timeline where Kirk was not the captain of the Enterprise at that point but Pike still was. My hypothesis is a Kirk who did not travel the road needed to get to the big chair in the Federation's flagship might not have as much swag as one who did.

As to Chapel, on the one hand I agree that the original version is in many respects a one-dimensional relic. On the other hand, I'm not sure that the current version really goes to three dimensions herself.

Whereas Majel Barrett Roddenberry's Chapel was a shy spinster who had a quiet thing for Spock (oh and her fiance that one episode) and once in a while did something McCoy or M'Benga asked her to, the current incarnation is a hot-to-trot bi/poly woman who has a fairly obvious thing for Spock and who once in a while does independent medical stuff in addition to doing medical stuff at M'Benga's direction. 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Chicago Redshirt

[aemom]

On 7/10/2022 at 12:45 AM, Dani said:

After. The Cage is set before Pike and Spock first appear on Discovery. Then they return to Talos IV on Discovery. 

Holy crap, I forgot all about that.

I was expecting a Talos IV episode to come at some point. I worry about myself sometimes...

I'm also on the fence about this Kirk. He's not.... sparkly enough. He looks fine, but I was expect him to be a bit more gregarious and charming - much like Pike is.

[LittleIggy]

I can’t believe believe that Vulcans didn’t know Romulans were related to them. That was the impression I got.

[Affogato]

9 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

I can’t believe believe that Vulcans didn’t know Romulans were related to them. That was the impression I got.

The two populations split on bad terms, and the Vulcans didn't want to admit the connection. I'm pretty sure it was known on Vulcan, though. Maybe not to everyone.

[QuantumMechanic]

On 7/21/2022 at 2:42 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

In what ATP showed SNWP, the Kirk was not the Kirk we know and that may explain why this Kirk acted differently in some respects from what we come to expect from Kirk as he has been previously portrayed by Shatner and Pine. (Or it could just be that the current guy wants his own spin on the character or a number of other reasons). I suppose we'll see where he's at when he inevitably shows up again next season or whenever.

I'm curious why, though.  As we know from "The Menagerie", the Pike-in-a-box accident happens after Pike has been promoted off Enterprise and Kirk has taken the Enterprise chair.  So Kirk should have had the ship already before the timelines diverge.

Though I suppose one could argue that in addition to sending the letter to the cadets Pike also decided to not accept the promotion to make really super sure he wouldn't be on that ship with the bad baffle plate.

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, QuantumMechanic said:

I'm curious why, though.  As we know from "The Menagerie", the Pike-in-a-box accident happens after Pike has been promoted off Enterprise and Kirk has taken the Enterprise chair.  So Kirk should have had the ship already before the timelines diverge.

Though I suppose one could argue that in addition to sending the letter to the cadets Pike also decided to not accept the promotion to make really super sure he wouldn't be on that ship with the bad baffle plate.

We'll probably never revisit this alt-Pike or timeline to know any more details, but, yes, it would seem to me that part of what alt-Pike must have done to avoid the accident was to not accept the promotion to fleet captain.

If he's not fleet captain, he would be unlikely to be overseeing cadets, and if he's not overseeing the cadets, there's no chance he'd be present if/when the "destined" accident would have happened. Since he never left to be fleet captain, Kirk never had a chance to be promoted to captain of the Enterprise, and only advanced to be captain of the Farragut.  

[cambridgeguy]

It makes you wonder if Pike accepted the promotion solely to keep the timeline intact.  Fleet captain seems like it's mostly a desk job, and Pike strikes me as the type who prefers to be out exploring.

[Lady Jane]

On 7/20/2022 at 7:59 PM, Athena5217 said:

I just wish new Nurse Chapel would wear the same damn uniform as everyone else.

She's a civilian here, so wouldn't wear a military uniform

[Athena5217]

4 hours ago, Lady Jane said:

She's a civilian here, so wouldn't wear a military uniform

How is she a civilian? She has the starfleet badge. I don’t remember any discussion of her not bring in Starfleet on the show. However, I dam often distracted when watching so I might have missed something. I have a very demanding dog who is not a Trekkie..

[Llywela]

4 hours ago, Athena5217 said:

How is she a civilian? She has the starfleet badge. I don’t remember any discussion of her not bring in Starfleet on the show. However, I dam often distracted when watching so I might have missed something. I have a very demanding dog who is not a Trekkie..

We were told when she was introduced in ep1 that she is a civilian on placement on board Enterprise for a mumble-mumble plot reason (I forget the details, but we were definitely told that she is not Starfleet).

[Athena5217]

18 hours ago, Llywela said:

We were told when she was introduced in ep1 that she is a civilian on placement on board Enterprise for a mumble-mumble plot reason (I forget the details, but we were definitely told that she is not Starfleet).

Wow, I misses that. I guess I have to stop complaining about her outfit then. What a strange thing to change about the original character

[MsNewsradio]

On 7/28/2022 at 4:08 AM, Llywela said:

We were told when she was introduced in ep1 that she is a civilian on placement on board Enterprise for a mumble-mumble plot reason (I forget the details, but we were definitely told that she is not Starfleet).

She’s on “civilian exchange from the Stanford Morehouse Epigenics Project” - mentioned by M’Benga to Pike before they get into the genetic alterations for the landing party in the first episode. 

[Orbert]

Does anyone know whether Dr. Culber from Discovery is also a civilian?  He wears the same style white uniform, rather than the blue which normally denotes medical.

[cambridgeguy]

Culber's an officer, and there are multiple doctors seen with a white uniform.  Apparently Starfleet couldn't make up their minds about uniforms during this era.

And the real reason Chapel's a civilian is because she couldn't interact with people (especially Spock) the way that she does if she wasn't.  I don't see Spock being so causal with another officer, especially if said officer happened to be lower in rank.

[TVbitch]

I enjoyed SNW so just watched STD:2 and some Short Treks to get more. I need help on a couple things:

1. At the end of Season 2 of STD, Pike seems totally fine, super positive, and ready to get on with in. But in Episode 1 of SNW, he is holed up in a cabin all emo about his vision. Does SNW not follow immediately after STD:2?

2. I saw the Short Trek of Number 1 with Spock flirting and singing show tunes in a stuck elevator "Q & A" - is this supposed to have actually happened? It was totally delightful, but, Spock singing show tunes?!

3. I liked a couple peripheral characters in STD:2, is it worth watching STD:3+? (I do have Burnham Burnout.)  

[MissLucas]

2 hours ago, TVbitch said:

3. I liked a couple peripheral characters in STD:2, is it worth watching STD:3+? (I do have Burnham Burnout.)  

Short answer: nope, especially if you suffer from Burnham Burnout. If you want to give it a try anyway, pick episodes with Jett Reno. 

[Good Queen Jane]

On 7/20/2022 at 10:59 PM, Athena5217 said:

I just wish new Nurse Chapel would wear the same damn uniform as everyone else.

Also, in the alt-future, when Nurse Chapel is listing Spock's injuries, she is wearing a blue uniform. So she joins Starfleet eventually, probably to search for her missing fiance, as indicated in TOS.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Good Queen Jane

[Ottis]

“Balance of Terror” has been my favorite TOS ep for 40 years… I loved this take. Loved the same dialogue, loved the same huge musical cue when everyone looked at Spock, loved how Pike is making peace with his fate.

The only thing I didn’t like was the casting of Jim Kirk, who was more like Jim Carrey playing Kirk than Shatner. They needed a shorter, beefier guy. 

Edited August 7, 2022 by Ottis

[wrlord]

The use of the story and much of the script from Balance of Terror really highlighted the weaknesses of this show, which on the whole has been better than I expected it to be. One feels that this production really didn't get it, like a junior varsity production playing dress-up.  That's a little harsh, but to this day that TOS episode keeps me on the edge of my seat. This did not.  There were little elements that I liked, but on the whole... no.  The drama was missing, the human story, the themes... this just felt rote. Oh look, her fiancee died. Oh look, they're like Vulcans (only now with big plastic heads).  No impact.

Some nits:  There is no way Pike would have been promoted to admiral after that fiasco.  He more likely would have been court-martialed (or, at best, given a desk job in some backwater).

The whole point of destroying the Romulan in BOT was to keep it from getting home and reporting the weakness of the Federation.  But in this the Romulans were within two hours flight (let alone radio) of their entire armada.

[norcalgal]

On 7/7/2022 at 10:45 PM, thuganomics85 said:

 

So, we finally get this show's version of James T. Kirk, in the form of Paul Wesley.  Like with Chris Pine, part of me just admires him for agreeing to tackle this role, because it's always going to be a battle to compete against William Shatner's iconic take (including the good, the bad, and the incredibly hammy!)  I thought he was okay here, but he didn't quite have the charisma and attitude I think he will need in the long run (ironically, I'm currently watching The Vampire Diaries for the first time ever, and I just keep thinking that if one of the actors playing the Salvatore brothers would ever play Kirk, it would be Ian Somerhalder.)  Still, I'll give him a chance.  I do think part of it was this is a Kirk who apparently will never come aboard the Enterprise, so I can see the "correct" version having a different attitude and way of doing things when it is all said and done.

 

On 7/8/2022 at 6:24 AM, Affogato said:

It did occur to me that Ian Somerhalder would have been a better choice, but really probably not an excellent choice, and that Wesley had a lot of charisma in Fallen, Vampire diaries. So shrug, I guess. 

YMMV, but I never sensed any charisma from Wesley at all in The Vampire Diaries, even after its 8 season run. Because I got into that show after the series ended, I don’t know if the original plan was to always have 

Spoiler

Elena end up with Damon, or, if the original plan was Elena/Stefan but the producers reversed course and had Elena end up with Damon because Ian’s screen presence was so much more than Paul’s. 

On 7/8/2022 at 6:16 AM, sugarbaker design said:

In the scenes with Kirk and Pike, Kirk looked like a gangly teenager with a head too big for his body.

I’m laughing because this was a reason it took me a while to even take in the Stefan character on The Vampire Diaries. I was just too distracted by Wesley’s giant head!  
I’m neutral on Wesley’s portrayal of JTK because I’ve only ever seen the character in the Trek movies (I’ve never seen a single episode of TOS). Still, I thought JTK would be more arrogant, swashbuckling and maverick.  The only time I sorta saw that in Wesley’s portrayal was the ruse of using mining machines as Federation ships. 

[dovegrey]

I really enjoy timey-wimey stuff and alternate looks at realities, so this episode was pretty cool.

Like others, I didn't get Kirk from Wesley. At all. It's been a long time since I've rewatched TOS, but if they'd never named Kirk in this episode, I don't think I would have pegged him as Kirk.

Since almost the start of SNW, I've gotten more Kirk vibes from Anson Mount than anything else. And this is where the episode and premise stumbled for me, a lot. I feel like either I don't have a good enough sense of Pike as a captain*, or they dumbed down Pike to make him so ineffective in this situation, or they wrote for convenience (because, any other episode, a catastrophic war and destroyed starships wouldn't have been the outcome).

*I acknowledge that I haven't watched Discovery and I missed a whole lot of Pike there, but the last 4 of 5 SNW episodes before this one did nothing to build up to this episode's premise. Most importantly, I don't find that Pike has been well-developed on his own show, which circles back to my existing problem with SNW spending so much time developing established TOS legacy characters so early on. For instance, Una has barely been on this show, and I honestly don't care what happens to her. I don't have that connection.

All that said, I really liked the ultimate moral ambiguity of the situation weighted against the fate of the Federation resting on the exact right person on the exact right ship at the exact right time. Pike wasn't wrong about the individual warbird and did what I would say any good Starfleet captain would try to do, but he catastrophically misjudged the Romulans. Kirk destroying the warbird could have just as easily ignited the same war; it's a roll of the dice against an unknown enemy. I'm curious if this will change how Pike approaches situations, or if he'll go uncompromisingly into his future with his existing ideals and convictions.

I'm also very, very curious if they're ultimately going to go through with the radiation incident with Pike as-was on TOS. It was dark AF on TOS, and it will be beyond dark to have it happen to an established and now-well-beloved Trek captain. With the Kelvinverse tie-in in this episode, I'm wondering if they're going to find some sort of whacky "out" that way - since that Pike didn't get irradiated, that Spock did not personally suffer a physically terrible fate, and Spock Prime  ends up there. There is, in fact, a timeline where it's possible (and didn't we all love the Khan serum that cures radiation poisoning 😝).

[Ceindreadh]

21 hours ago, dovegrey said:

I'm also very, very curious if they're ultimately going to go through with the radiation incident with Pike as-was on TOS. It was dark AF on TOS, and it will be beyond dark to have it happen to an established and now-well-beloved Trek captain. With the Kelvinverse tie-in in this episode, I'm wondering if they're going to find some sort of whacky "out" that way - since that Pike didn't get irradiated, that Spock did not personally suffer a physically terrible fate, and Spock Prime  ends up there. There is, in fact, a timeline where it's possible (and didn't we all love the Khan serum that cures radiation poisoning 😝).

I don't think they even need a 'whacky' out for Pike.  Surely all he needs to do is just retire from Starfleet at about the time of the radiation accident.  Heck, he can even save the other victims first.  The important thing is that Kirk gets the opportunity to command the Enterprise.  Pike doesn't have to be incapacitated for that to happen.  All that would be changed would be that Spock wouldn't have to steal the Enterprise and go to Talos IV.

 

[dovegrey]

2 minutes ago, Ceindreadh said:

I don't think they even need a 'whacky' out for Pike.  Surely all he needs to do is just retire from Starfleet at about the time of the radiation accident.  Heck, he can even save the other victims first.  The important thing is that Kirk gets the opportunity to command the Enterprise.  Pike doesn't have to be incapacitated for that to happen.  All that would be changed would be that Spock wouldn't have to steal the Enterprise and go to Talos IV.

IIRC, Admiral Pike said that there is no timeline he explored where he escapes the radiation accident and doesn't mess up everything else - "Every time we change the path, he dies." I took that as meaning that Pike had tried other ways and always got Spock killed. A butterfly flaps its wings type thing. If it wasn't for that line, I would just think that Pike could stay on the Enterprise for as long as he wants, so long as he kills the Romulans that day. Done.

Pike's radiation accident has a huge impact on Spock, as he risks his career to give Pike a modicum of peace on Talos, and it sounds like that accident with that specific impact on that specific person is the galaxy-saving event that Pike achieves.
 

[cambridgeguy]

On 3/30/2023 at 7:03 PM, dovegrey said:

IIRC, Admiral Pike said that there is no timeline he explored where he escapes the radiation accident and doesn't mess up everything else - "Every time we change the path, he dies." I took that as meaning that Pike had tried other ways and always got Spock killed. A butterfly flaps its wings type thing. If it wasn't for that line, I would just think that Pike could stay on the Enterprise for as long as he wants, so long as he kills the Romulans that day. Done.

Pike's radiation accident has a huge impact on Spock, as he risks his career to give Pike a modicum of peace on Talos, and it sounds like that accident with that specific impact on that specific person is the galaxy-saving event that Pike achieves.

Yup, based on what's been presented there is no avoiding this.   Maybe Admiral Pike knows he'll end up on Talos with Vina, but Captain Pike doesn't, so he's committing to a living nightmare for the good of Spock and the galaxy.  It does raise the separate question of why he doesn't write a note before the accident asking to be euthanized, or put in stasis, or something other than just sitting there.  Maybe he thinks that's part of the deal required to save Spock.

[KatWay]

On 4/1/2023 at 8:25 PM, cambridgeguy said:

Yup, based on what's been presented there is no avoiding this.   Maybe Admiral Pike knows he'll end up on Talos with Vina, but Captain Pike doesn't, so he's committing to a living nightmare for the good of Spock and the galaxy.  It does raise the separate question of why he doesn't write a note before the accident asking to be euthanized, or put in stasis, or something other than just sitting there.  Maybe he thinks that's part of the deal required to save Spock.

anything involving time travel always requires a loooot of suspension of disbelief, I don't think we need to come up with an explanation. He can't change the timeline because the screenwriters said so lol.

He could very likely come up with a scenario that wouldn't miraculously end with Spock dead or the galaxy at stake and save himself but that would cheapen the stakes of his entire arc so "the universe" decrees it can't be done.

I mean look at Voyager etc and how often they changed the timeline just cause they were personally unhappy with some stuff. There's no real rhyme or reason to the laws of this.

[Prevailing Wind]

I watched this again and then immediately watched TOS: Balance of Terror. There's something in BoT that bugs the crap out of me - not only in BoT but a lot of space shows... They act as though the spaceships are on a road.  "OH!  The Romulans are throwing a giant plasma bomb at us - reverse!!!"  And they keep backing up until the plasma bomb runs out of steam. Well, duh. Go DOWN or UP. You don't have just right, left, backwards, forwards.  There are two other directions you can go in that the plasma bomb can't follow. It's like 21st century shows where a vehicle is bearing down on a person and they keep trying to run in front of it, instead of jumping off to the side.