S06.E09: The Hill

[Crs97]

56 minutes ago, BlancheDevoreaux said:

Well her family felt it was their place to tell Randall, Kevin, and Jack they needed to get help.

Rebecca tried to help her with better choices and was undermined by Jack.  She also was clobbered for bringing up Kate’s weight as a concern when Kate wanted to get pregnant.  There does seem to be a bit of a double standard.

[ams1001]

1 hour ago, BlancheDevoreaux said:

Unless Rebecca came down with something else that was killing her, I can't imagine she had her faculties to ask for Toby. When you are dying from Alzheimer's, unless it is that final-stage rally, you don't know most of the people in your life. Short-term memory goes before long-term. My dad, for example, has Alzheimer's. He forgot my daughter (his only grandchild) first. Then he forgot my husband. My sister and I were the next to go. He has held on to memories of his brothers longer than my mom. If her Alzheimer's has progressed to the point that she is dying from it, it would be odd she remembered Toby enough to ask for him. I'm thinking he was asking about Kate.

Since Randall has to tell her who he is when he goes in to see her, and she barely even reacts to her favorite child, I'm gonna assume her memory is pretty much gone by that point.

3 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

He said the offer was "a joke." That didn't really answer the question for me as offer can mean a lot of things. MMV. 

And when she pointed out that he didn't actually answer her, he still wouldn't tell her.

Another thought I had about the house...it's nice that Toby considered space for Rebecca and Miguel to visit, but it's only a matter of time before Rebecca is probably not going to be traveling anywhere, much less to an unfamiliar city. Even with her family around her, periodically going off to visit a place she barely knows is going to be more and more difficult for her.

[izabella]

35 minutes ago, nilyank said:

Pretty much like when Randall decided to quit his high paying job. Or buying William’s old apartment building. Or running for office in another state which required them to sell their beautiful house, move into a new city, change schools for all the girls and adjust to Randalll’s whims.

Unlike Kate, Beth talked it out with Randall and despite her frustrations she didnt stew about it and blame him for not being the same Randall that she fell in love in college. Beth has an ability to bend that Kate isn’t as comfortable as doing.

I don’t think Toby helped his situation but I don’t believe that Kate would have been happy or as supportive if Toby told her about the other job offer but that he wanted to stay in the job in San Francisco. She has finally found a point in her life that she was happy with (kids, job as a music teacher asst, closer relationship with her mom, her home in LA) and she doesn’t want to change that. At least not for Toby’s dream job and life in SF.

And it is Toby's job in SF that is paying for Kate's "happy" life and her children's, and has given her the luxury of a fun part time job. 

2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I noticed in this episode that Kate declined the cake at the retirement party.  She also was trying to avoid all the desserts at Toby's boss's house.  When she finally did choose to indulge, she picked up 3 items vs. everyone else who had plates heaping with pastries and cookies.  She is trying.

I saw that, too, but feel the writers are gaslighting us.  Because Kate needs a lot of calories on a daily basis to maintain her current weight, but they're trying to make use believe she doesn't.

[CountryGirl]

18 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Those decisions that Randall made almost broke up his marriage to Beth.  I don't see this as Beth is willing to bend in a way that Kate cannot, but that Kate does not see a place for herself in Toby's new life.  Beth did not suffer this problem.  She used the move to Philadelphia as a way for her to reconnect with her first love, dance.  When Randall made his rash decisions, Beth was also in a place of transition.  They were able to communicate and transition together.  

Yes, to the point that some of us, me included, feared they were no longer together in the flash forwards. Even William noted how Beth sacrificed herself, including her doubts and fears and struggles, for Randall and that she needed to be "seen" by him. That Beth found a way to make it work by reconnecting with ballet does not mean Kate is some sort of failure for not insta-caving to Toby's plans and Beth did not insta-cave either. Randall, for all of his laser-focus on himself and his causes, never causes Beth to truly doubt how much he loves her and needs her by his side. She could picture herself and their children having a life in Philly. After the disastrous weekend in SF, I don't see how Kate could possibly feel the same way. Nothing about the weekend was for her. It was all Toby. His itinerary, which included work calls and a work event (cocktail party), viewing his dream house and letting her have a few days to think about it (how generous of him). Nothing about a possible school for Jack and job for Kate. The ultimatum "you've got to get on board" was the final straw for me. But on a bigger note, this is why I don't compare couples/marriages.

[Ohiopirate02]

6 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

He said the offer was "a joke." That didn't really answer the question for me as offer can mean a lot of things. MMV. 

Then he immediately went into a monologue on how expensive raising Jack was going to be that sounded like someone looking up their symptoms in WebMD and concluding they were dying.  I get it, giving Jack the life Toby and Kate want is going to be expensive, but not as expensive as what Toby was saying.  His research is leading him towards the most state-of-the-art options that are naturally going to cost a lot.  He is going worst case scenario instead of (again) communicating with his wife who works with blind kids.  His lack of respect for Kate is blinding him to her experience and expertise.  

[CountryGirl]

6 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Then he immediately went into a monologue on how expensive raising Jack was going to be that sounded like someone looking up their symptoms in WebMD and concluding they were dying.  I get it, giving Jack the life Toby and Kate want is going to be expensive, but not as expensive as what Toby was saying.  His research is leading him towards the most state-of-the-art options that are naturally going to cost a lot.  He is going worst case scenario instead of (again) communicating with his wife who works with blind kids.  His lack of respect for Kate is blinding him to her experience and expertise.  

Nodding along to this. Kate spends much more time with Jack, especially of late, and has much more experience working in a school for blind kids of all ages. To talk to her like she just rolled off the turnip truck in this regard was so out of line. I'm betting he googled some stuff and is an insta-authority and I cannot roll my eyes hard enough.

[ams1001]

2 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Then he immediately went into a monologue on how expensive raising Jack was going to be that sounded like someone looking up their symptoms in WebMD and concluding they were dying.  I get it, giving Jack the life Toby and Kate want is going to be expensive, but not as expensive as what Toby was saying.  His research is leading him towards the most state-of-the-art options that are naturally going to cost a lot.  He is going worst case scenario instead of (again) communicating with his wife who works with blind kids.  His lack of respect for Kate is blinding him to her experience and expertise.  

And as someone else pointed out, not that LA is cheap (as cost of living around the US goes) but it's going to be that much more expensive in San Francisco (which, according to World Population Review is the second most expensive US city to live in after NYC [which is also the ninth most expensive city in the world]). LA is #9.

I got the feeling the LA offer was only a "joke" in comparison to what he's making in SF, not necessarily in comparison to what they reasonably need to live comfortably where they are.

[Ohiopirate02]

3 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

Nodding along to this. Kate spends much more time with Jack, especially of late, and has much more experience working in a school for blind kids of all ages. To talk to her like she just rolled off the turnip truck in this regard was so out of line. I'm betting he googled some stuff and is an insta-authority and I cannot roll my eyes hard enough.

I also wonder where Toby is finding his information.  Is he reading blog posts from blind people talking about navigating the world or is he reading the blogs of parents of blind kids.  His mentioning of the completely, totally necessary device for Jack that costs eight grand makes me think it's the latter.  Jack is 2, he's got a few years before he will need special classroom tech.  And when he does, the tech will have changed.  Hopefully it will new tech that has been designed by blind people for blind people.  It can also be much cheaper.

[CdrJanny]

1 hour ago, mansonlamps said:

Almost everyone I know who quit an addictive or destructive behavior did so after much urging/pressure from close friends and family.   I'm not suggesting complete strangers should be giving her advice,  but surely Rebecca, Randall and Kevin would have some concerns, along with Toby.  We're not talking 20 lbs here.  

Frankly, I'm shocked that Rebecca or Randall didn't see teen Kate's emotional/psychological distress evidenced by her rapid weight gain, or, if they did, intervene so she would get the medical help she desperately needed.

Edited March 23, 2022 by CdrJanny

[Janie430]

2 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

That cannot be overstated. He was never, ever gonna tell her the truth about this until she stumbled upon it. Just like he was never gonna tell her the truth about Kara and the other CF crew and them commiserating about him being married to horrible Kate until she saw his text (and not because she was going through his phone but she was going to take a picture of Jack). Just like he still refuses to tell her about what the LA offer was. I don't give two shits what it was, he didn't get to unilaterally decide what to share with Kate and what not to. They are married but he isn't acting like it now just like he didn't back then. It is a partnership where they have equal say but it feels like Toby thinks because he makes the lion's share of money that he holds all the cards. 

To relate this to Jack and Rebecca again, Kate was used to Jack making all the big gestures and the major decisions, and Rebecca went along with it.  It makes sense that she'd initally be very comfortable in a relationship with that dynamic.  But like Randall realized he didn't want his relationship with Beth to be like that, I think it's normal for Kate to not want her relationship to be like that anymore.  

It would make sense to me that in learning to advocate for Baby Jack, even against Toby, and to having to make detailed plans and stick to them, that Kate would be find it easier to put her own needs in a relationship forward.  Ironically, to me as Rebecca lost more and more of her independence and voice as her marriage to Jack progressed, Kate's needed to find it.

[marceline]

3 hours ago, Jeddah said:

It was more than just showing her the house. He said he’d gotten pre-approved for a mortgage and discussed how much they could  sell their current house for. It’s a big deal to be preparing to sell the house your wife and children live in without checking with your wife.

Yeah the money issue really bothers me. You don't get that far down the road on financial stuff without looping in your spouse. 

It's like the SNL skit about the husband who buys a Lexus for his wife as a Christmas present, some things need to be joint decisions.

[jalady]

Excellent points made by a lot of posters.  I came here to say I thought Kate’s/Chrissy’s hair looked terrible in this episode.  Shallow, I know. 😄  Carry on with your deep thoughts.

[Ohiopirate02]

10 minutes ago, Janie430 said:

To relate this to Jack and Rebecca again, Kate was used to Jack making all the big gestures and the major decisions, and Rebecca went along with it.  It makes sense that she'd initally be very comfortable in a relationship with that dynamic.  But like Randall realized he didn't want his relationship with Beth to be like that, I think it's normal for Kate to not want her relationship to be like that anymore.  

It would make sense to me that in learning to advocate for Baby Jack, even against Toby, and to having to make detailed plans and stick to them, that Kate would be find it easier to put her own needs in a relationship forward.  Ironically, to me as Rebecca lost more and more of her independence and voice as her marriage to Jack progressed, Kate's needed to find it.

I am not condoning Jack or Randall and the ways both have strong-armed their wives over the years, but I do understand them more than Toby here.  Yes, Jack bought a house without consulting Rebecca, but that was a part of their shared plan.  She was pregnant with triplets, they needed a bigger place to live, and it was in the area where they both decided to put down roots.  Beth was able to make Randall's Philadelphia plan work by asserting herself and pivoting to do what she wanted.  Randall did give her the room for this.  What Toby is doing is not part of his and Kate's plan.  It's a different plan, one that he created and, for me most importantly, did not leave Kate the room for her to pivot into a new life.  His plan has Kate quitting her job, saying goodbye to her family, and being a housewife.  He will still be working long hours while she is at home with the kids.  Maybe she will be invited on the yacht or to the Giants' game, but that will be predicated on her finding a babysitter who she trusts to take care of the kids.  

[ams1001]

18 minutes ago, marceline said:

It's like the SNL skit about the husband who buys a Lexus for his wife as a Christmas present, some things need to be joint decisions.

Every holiday season when those ads start up I say I wish I had the kind of money that I could buy a luxury car (or two, like that one with the guy whose wife claims the one he meant to be for himself) without discussing it with my spouse.

I wouldn't do it, but I wish I had that kind of money.

[qtpye]

17 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Good, I’m not the only one failing to sympathize with Kate.

Newsflash, Kate: everyone changes. Toby’s desire to find personal fulfillment with his job and himself is no different from yours. And for you to admit that you liked Toby back when he was overweight and a mess but at your beck and call at your convenience speaks more about you than him.

I really don’t think it’s fair that all of this is going to lead Kate in a happy new marriage with her boss while Toby winds up being a depressed mess in the flash forward.

 

16 hours ago, Katie111 said:

I cannot stand Kate.  The way she left that party was so rude.  These are his coworkers. Hold yourself together for 5 minutes to say goodbye to your host, your husband’s boss.  The one that pays his salary that allows you to live in a beautiful house in LA and work your dream job that pays almost nothing.  
 

Toby is the one killing himself going back and forth on a plane 4 times a week.  And all he gets when he gets to LA is shit on by his wife for not being there enough and not doing anything right.  And he gets to live with his wife and brother in law.    I think she loves having Kevin there and doesn’t need Toby there because she has Kevin as a stand in. 
 

He found a house that he thought she would like.  If she didn’t like it, all she had to say was that they should keep looking.  He hadn’t even put an offer on it.  Absolutely nothing makes her happy.  Least of all Toby.  
 

One final note, but why do they never address Kates weight in the present time?  No one ever makes a comment about her weight.  No one at the party even batted an eyelash when Toby introduced her.  She is morbidly obese and I just don’t think that’s realistic at all that no one seems to notice it. 

 

15 hours ago, mansonlamps said:

Kate is my mother while looking like Rebecca instead of Kate.   She always put her mother's nuclear family ahead of ours.  Kate infuriates me, no one should start a family if they still think of themselves as a daughter/sister before a wife/mother.   And yes this is mean,  but women who weigh 400 lbs don't have handsome men waiting at their beck and call,  it's just not realistic. 

 

14 hours ago, LoveLeigh said:

I find Kate insufferable. Toby has to perform for her as he talks to her about the day's plans, dance around her, and totally kuchel her along. She is overly sensitive, too indulged, too used to a therapeutic interaction... this comes from her mother. 

She has a job now she loves, she should cut Toby loose. Dr. Now would call him an "enabler" because he never addresses the elephant in the room, and takes her out to restaurants with limited food options.

Let's see how long her second husband jumps through hoops for her. If he walks on eggshells for the rest of his life, that marriage could last. Every little thing sets her off.

 

 

14 hours ago, pennben said:

Honestly, I haven’t liked Toby from the get go. Been rooting for him to get off the screen since S1. I’ll only be disappointed at end if they get back together. Be gone all versions of him. This really has nothing to do about my feelings for Kate. Just never liked him from day 1. 

 

13 hours ago, Racj82 said:

Man, I sympathize with Toby so much.

I'm so tired of working at jobs where I'm undervalued. Just another cog in the wheel.

I've saved my superiors so much from their screwups. I take on a leadership role and help everyone out I can. Most people beg to not have to cover me when I'm off because my route (I'm a courier) sucks so bad.

I know I'm more valuable than my position but it's never seen. It's lso such a hard thing to find. To be valued. I understand Toby not wanting to give all that up.

They can have it all. Kate could be happy.

I just don't think she wants a life with Toby anymore.

I have wondered why it is so hard for me to root for Kate.

I think the writers have done the character a giant injustice.

I think part of the reason is that she has been coddled and enabled all her life by the men of her family. I also hate how entitled she is.

I remember when she threw a fit because she did not get the lead singer in a band in what was like her third audition?

Of course, she wants to teach blind kids and she is the best teacher ever because she just CARES SO MUCH and without any training.

After the writers nixed her weight storylines it seemed like they did not have any idea of what to do with her.

Neither Kevin nor Randall are defined by their love interests. Early on the only thing, I knew about Kate was that she had Toby chasing after her doing Jack-like grand gestures.

Don't tell me how amazing Kate is...show me.

There is no suspense about adorable baby Jack. We know he grows up to be incredibly handsome, successful, and well adjusted.

Toby had some bad moments in this but we have to acknowledge that he has also been very patient when  Kate did not know what to do with her life.

We also know that there is another man waiting in the wings who will also fall madly in love with Kate.

This episode was a snooze because we all know Kate is going to be okay because she is Kate and that's about it.

[statsgirl]

6 hours ago, Empress1 said:

Really, if the goal is to maximize compensation, most of us should change jobs, whether that’s an internal promotion or leaving for a new employer, every few years regardless of industry.

There are some industries though that rarely promote from within the company. When I worked in advertising, everyone changed agencies and then came back again because the agencies didn't promote their own people, they always looked outside to hire for positions. In other places, such as hospitals or media, they advertised to promote from within first.

[CleoCaesar]

3 hours ago, Jax7917 said:

I don't see the changes in Toby that the show is trying to tell us. He still comes off as goofy, pays an extreme amount of attention to Kate, still does grand gestures, is a family man. If they wanted to really show us that he's acting differently, they need to do a better job.

Exactly this. The show is telling, not showing. Toby still feels like Toby to me as a viewer. He's not some cold husband who doesn't care about his kids. He's been busting his ass all season, constantly flying between cities to see his family and being the breadwinner. He's still affectionate and fun and into planning big days together. His big sin (up until the job offer reveal, which I still think the show threw in there because a Pearson can never be wrong) was extreme self-improvement.

But all of that is not enough for our Kate. She needs Toby to be fat like herself, depressed and miserable, and happy in complacency. That's the Toby she wants and needs. To call theirs an unhealthy dynamic is an understatement.

[Good Queen Jane]

When they showed Old Toby, I remembered why I didn't like him. And this is the man Kate prefers over Now Toby? Kate has terrible taste in men.

[gonzosgirrl]

19 minutes ago, CleoCaesar said:

Exactly this. The show is telling, not showing. Toby still feels like Toby to me as a viewer. He's not some cold husband who doesn't care about his kids. He's been busting his ass all season, constantly flying between cities to see his family and being the breadwinner. He's still affectionate and fun and into planning big days together. His big sin (up until the job offer reveal, which I still think the show threw in there because a Pearson can never be wrong) was extreme self-improvement.

But all of that is not enough for our Kate. She needs Toby to be fat like herself, depressed and miserable, and happy in complacency. That's the Toby she wants and needs. To call theirs an unhealthy dynamic is an understatement.

This. Even in this episode which had him do and say some bone-head things, he reiterated time and again how much he loves her and his kids, how exhausted he is with four flights a week, but does it because he loves them. They obviously had some great sex. Every person he introduced her to at this work event he 'dragged' her to knew who she was, knew about his kids and it was clear Toby had bragged about them all. But nothing is ever good enough for Kate unless it is on her terms, and that has been the case throughout the show.

Edited to add: There is nothing wrong with wanting happiness on your own terms, and I'm in no way saying Kate should 'bow to her man' or anything like that.  It's okay to want different things, or to decide you don't care for the inevitable changes in a person. But own your choices, don't heap the blame on the other person for changing or play martyr if you decide to stay.

As someone pointed out above, this whole thing, beginning with Toby being an ass with his business calls throughout the season and culminating with the character assassination of this episode, feels like manipulation by the writers to gain sympathy and support for Kate, no matter what. The character (Toby) deserves better, IMO.

Edited March 23, 2022 by gonzosgirrl

[CountryGirl]

31 minutes ago, jalady said:

Excellent points made by a lot of posters.  I came here to say I thought Kate’s/Chrissy’s hair looked terrible in this episode.  Shallow, I know. 😄  Carry on with your deep thoughts.

Speaking of shallow, I may have slow-mowed some of those Jack at the pool moments.

Now, back to your regularly-scheduled Toby vs Kate debate. 😝

[tennisgurl]

Jack and Rebecca really should have seen Kate's issues with food for the psychological/additive problems that they were, and someone else needs to engage in some real talk with her now, but the Pearson's have never really been great with real talk OR really dealing with their families generation spanning history of addiction on Jack's side. 

[Guest]

48 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I am not condoning Jack or Randall and the ways both have strong-armed their wives over the years, but I do understand them more than Toby here.  Yes, Jack bought a house without consulting Rebecca, but that was a part of their shared plan.  She was pregnant with triplets, they needed a bigger place to live, and it was in the area where they both decided to put down roots.  Beth was able to make Randall's Philadelphia plan work by asserting herself and pivoting to do what she wanted.  Randall did give her the room for this.  What Toby is doing is not part of his and Kate's plan.  It's a different plan, one that he created and, for me most importantly, did not leave Kate the room for her to pivot into a new life.  His plan has Kate quitting her job, saying goodbye to her family, and being a housewife.  He will still be working long hours while she is at home with the kids.  Maybe she will be invited on the yacht or to the Giants' game, but that will be predicated on her finding a babysitter who she trusts to take care of the kids.  

In Beth’s case, she took initiative to carve out a space for her and return to dance. I don’t see Kate showing that initiative ever. Instead she complains, works at something for a minute, and gets mad if she doesn’t instantly get her way. 
I do think the family issue is a bigger deal, but it’s not like she has family for childcare at this point. But I can definitely see her resisting moving away from them.

[PRgal]

1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I also wonder where Toby is finding his information.  Is he reading blog posts from blind people talking about navigating the world or is he reading the blogs of parents of blind kids.  His mentioning of the completely, totally necessary device for Jack that costs eight grand makes me think it's the latter.  Jack is 2, he's got a few years before he will need special classroom tech.  And when he does, the tech will have changed.  Hopefully it will new tech that has been designed by blind people for blind people.  It can also be much cheaper.

This.  I have epilepsy.  I swear that a lot of things I never got to experience as a child had to do with my parents over-worrying and over-protecting me (though some of it is stereotypical Asian parent-ness but my parents were more culturally integrated and more in tune with Anglo-Canadian culture).  It really wasn’t until I was in my teens and BEGGED to have a chance to go to sleep away camp that they FINALLY let me!  Music camp.  It was a real camp, with cabins !  Though it was only a week-long session, it was probably the best experience of my life until I did a semester abroad (they kind of gave in, and I guess I proved I was okay after a couple of years away at school.  Plus I was 21 by then).  I had to give up Girl Guides (Canadian equivalent to Girl Scouts in the US) because I couldn’t do camp.  Parents of kids with disabilities/conditions tend to over-research.  And my parents did all that without the internet! 

[Empress1]

39 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

There are some industries though that rarely promote from within the company. When I worked in advertising, everyone changed agencies and then came back again because the agencies didn't promote their own people, they always looked outside to hire for positions. In other places, such as hospitals or media, they advertised to promote from within first.

Right - that’s why I said “either internal promotion or leaving for a new employer.” Your advertising example is a case where people have to move on to move up.

[Ohiopirate02]

2 minutes ago, PRgal said:

This.  I have epilepsy.  I swear that a lot of things I never got to experience as a child had to do with my parents over-worrying and over-protecting me (though some of it is stereotypical Asian parent-ness but my parents were more culturally integrated and more in tune with Anglo-Canadian culture).  It really wasn’t until I was in my teens and BEGGED to have a chance to go to sleep away camp that they FINALLY let me!  Music camp.  It was a real camp, with cabins !  Though it was only a week-long session, it was probably the best experience of my life until I did a semester abroad (they kind of gave in, and I guess I proved I was okay after a couple of years away at school.  Plus I was 21 by then).  I had to give up Girl Guides (Canadian equivalent to Girl Scouts in the US) because I couldn’t do camp.  Parents of kids with disabilities/conditions tend to over-research.  And my parents did all that without the internet! 

I know that many now adults with autism have expressed their concerns about organizations like Autism Speaks and how they are geared more towards the parents of children with autism vs. the actual children and how detrimental to downright abusive some of the forms of therapy can be.  I imagine this happens with other conditions.  These parents believe they are doing whatever to help their children, but they only listen to other parents and not the people who live it.  Kate is in a position to see how blind people navigate through the world.  Her counting songs with Jack show this.  Toby is online reading up on the latest from what can potentially be dubious sources.  

[Rootbeer]

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

Nodding along to this. Kate spends much more time with Jack, especially of late, and has much more experience working in a school for blind kids of all ages. To talk to her like she just rolled off the turnip truck in this regard was so out of line. I'm betting he googled some stuff and is an insta-authority and I cannot roll my eyes hard enough.

Kate has worked a couple of days a week at a school for the blind as an assistant music teacher for what?  6 months, maybe?  Maybe 100 days total? She doesn't have a degree in education, let alone in special education.  While I imagine Kate knows more about educating blind kids in preschool and elementary school than Toby; I disagree that she is any sort of expert on the subject or has done extensive research into learning aids for high school and college kids who are blind.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Rootbeer

[CountryGirl]

2 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

Kate has worked a couple of days a week at a school for the blind as an assistant music teacher for what?  6 months, maybe?  Maybe 100 days total? She doesn't have a degree in education, let alone in special education.  While I imagine Kate knows more about educating blind kids in preschool and elementary school than Toby; I disagree that she is any sort of expert on the subject or has done extensive research into learning aids for high school and college kids who are blind.

I never used the word "expert" to describe Kate, only that she is more experienced than Toby is since she has been working at the school part-time. 

And if Toby had done any sort of real research, he would know the state assists with learning aids.

[Rootbeer]

24 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

I never used the word "expert" to describe Kate, only that she is more experienced than Toby is since she has been working at the school part-time. 

And if Toby had done any sort of real research, he would know the state assists with learning aids.

I'm sure Toby does know about state assistance for kids with special needs, but, if so, he also knows there is a limit to what the state will provide and, like any parent, wants to make sure his child has every single opportunity to succeed.  That means they are probably going to be spending a fair amount of their own money on extras not covered by the state.  While the specific device he mentioned is something Jack wouldn't need for years and years and will probably be replaced by superior tech in the  interim; he can't be sure and, as a guy who has been very strong in his desire to provide for the family all along, Toby is going to want Jack to have the best of everything.

The fact that Toby's married to a woman who has not worked full time in years and whose main criteria for choosing a career is based on what she likes to do even if it pays poorly and is only part time; means that Toby is ALWAYS the one who is going to have to look out for the bottom line.  

Once they divorce, I don't think Kate will cope very well with having to downsize and sell the house because she cannot afford the mortgage.  Toby will be paying child support and maybe some alimony to her for a set period, probably until the kids are in school full time, but they've only been married a few years, I don't see Toby being responsible for the entire mortgage for the next couple decades and Kate cannot possibly be making enough to cover it.  The average teacher's aide makes about 15 bucks an hour in California.  So, working two days a week, she clears less than a $1000 a month before taxes. She could make more working at Target or McDonald's but we know that would never happen.  Even if she gets the full time job, we're talking under $25,000 a year since she won't be working summers.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Rootbeer

[Crs97]

14 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

And if Toby had done any sort of real research, he would know the state assists with learning aids.

As a parent of two young adults with special needs, I can tell you that you shouldn’t get too excited about state assistance.

5 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

 

Once they divorce, I don't think Kate will cope very well with having to downsize and sell the house because she cannot afford the mortgage.

We know that won’t happen.  Kevin will step up and pay for anything she wants, and she will manipulate Toby into providing for everything she wants the children need.

[Cosmocrush]

20 hours ago, BlancheDevoreaux said:

YES! This has bugged me since that happened. We are supposed to be on Kate's side here, but why?

Maybe because she is doing the actual hard work of raising two children under two, one with special needs and holding down a job at the same time.  Add on part time care taking of her mother.   Toby is in a place where he basically just works.  He has time for fantasy basketball, working out, house shopping and probably gets eight hours of sleep a night. 

19 hours ago, Katie111 said:

One final note, but why do they never address Kates weight in the present time?  No one ever makes a comment about her weight.  No one at the party even batted an eyelash when Toby introduced her.  She is morbidly obese and I just don’t think that’s realistic at all that no one seems to notice it. 

Of course they notice it but well behaved people do not comment on someone's physical condition to their face.   Besides, overweight people and particularly morbidly obese people KNOW that they are  obese - commenting on it would be completely rude and unhelpful.  

Edited March 23, 2022 by Cosmocrush

[mansonlamps]

2 hours ago, Crs97 said:

Rebecca tried to help her with better choices and was undermined by Jack.  She also was clobbered for bringing up Kate’s weight as a concern when Kate wanted to get pregnant.  There does seem to be a bit of a double standard.

Don't forget how much Rebecca was clobbered by the audience for these things too.  Pages of disparaging the character for having the gall to serve her daughter a grapefruit for breakfast instead of the sugary cereals her (normal weight) brothers got.  Followed by ad nauseum posts about what constitutes a "healthy" breakfast.   Assuming other social media postings followed a similar pattern,  no doubt the showrunners felt treating that subject with kids gloves was prudent rather than risking alienating their core audience. 

[Empress1]

4 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

As a parent of two young adults with special needs, I can tell you that you shouldn’t get too excited about state assistance.

I was thinking the same thing but without the expertise of being close to/responsible for someone with special needs. But the safety net for most things in this country is a lot smaller than many people think it is. (Both my parents have/had Medicare supplements, for example, and how many stories have we heard about seniors on a fixed income living in poverty or having to work?) If people can afford to pad the public option with something better, they typically do. 

[Cosmocrush]

18 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I think Toby lost me at the end when he was basically telling Kate they would what he wanted, and kind of presented it to her as though she had no real choice.  Everything he was saying might be correct, but he's done a terrible job of presenting any of this to Kate.

Even if I was willing to uproot my family to SF I wouldn't after Toby said she "needed to get on board because that's what's going to happen." 

[Rootbeer]

4 minutes ago, Cosmocrush said:

Maybe because she is doing the actual hard work of raising two children under two, one with special needs and holding down a job at the same time.  Add on part time care taking of her mother.   Toby is in a place where he basically just works.  He has time for fantasy basketball, running, house shopping and probably gets eight hours of sleep a night. 

Kate works part time because she WANTS to, it has been very clear on the show that the money she makes is negligible and it appears that her attachment to that specific job in that specific school is a very large part of her desire to stay in LA.  If Kate wants Toby home more often to help with the kids and so that she can get more sleep at night, then perhaps she should've been a little more open minded about moving to SF.  I am sure there are schools for the blind there that have teacher's aides in music class. 

[mishap]

Not quite sure how it's ok for Kate to apply for a job in LA but Toby is in trouble for not telling her about a job offer in LA.  I  agree, that she should be mad at him for that.  Because it was something they should have discussed.  Duh.  Well it's a  dramatic tv show so i guess common sense judgement is non existent.    I just would not be the Pearsons if everyone  just talked about things and said what they were thinking.  It has to come out in the most dramatic or awkward way.  

I thought Kate said they  could not sustain the way they were living, in 2 cities, so her suggestion to go and visit Toby meant she was coming to see the city and think about moving there.  Well that  was what i assumed, so I don't think it was so terrible of Toby to show her a house.  Just a possibility.  If we live here, this is how we could live.  And i  know he was hoping she would say, oh I love it, let's buy it.   But he backed off when she was less than enthusiastic.  

Well whatever they do,  I got far enough into this show, i have to watch till the end.  I liked it a lot at first but  I kind of do the  hate/watch thing now.  

 

[marceline]

9 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I feel like Toby is manipulating Kate here with this line of thinking.  If Old Toby was suicidal, she had no idea.  He never communicated this with her.  If Toby's humor was just a deflection, again she had no idea and that means he just told her that the person she fell in love with was a lie.  To me, it feels like New Toby hates his old self, and the Kate that loves Old Toby has no place in his new life.  

For me his comments weren't about what she knew or didn't at the time. It's about letting her know that the Toby she's so nostalgic for, the one she misses so much, was him in pain.

Imagine telling someone who worked hard to get sober, "I really miss the person you were when you were drinking/using. You were so much more fun back then." BTW, people in recovery hear that a lot. Usually from their old drinking/using buddies.

Toby had a HEART ATTACK. He changed his life because it was either change or die. Kate's basically saying that Heart Disease Toby was so much more fun.

Edited March 23, 2022 by marceline

[Ohiopirate02]

2 minutes ago, mishap said:

Not quite sure how it's ok for Kate to apply for a job in LA but Toby is in trouble for not telling her about a job offer in LA.  I  agree, that she should be mad at him for that.  Because it was something they should have discussed.  Duh.  Well it's a  dramatic tv show so i guess common sense judgement is non existent.    I just would not be the Pearsons if everyone  just talked about things and said what they were thinking.  It has to come out in the most dramatic or awkward way.  

I thought Kate said they  could not sustain the way they were living, in 2 cities, so her suggestion to go and visit Toby meant she was coming to see the city and think about moving there.  Well that  was what i assumed, so I don't think it was so terrible of Toby to show her a house.  Just a possibility.  If we live here, this is how we could live.  And i  know he was hoping she would say, oh I love it, let's buy it.   But he backed off when she was less than enthusiastic.  

Well whatever they do,  I got far enough into this show, i have to watch till the end.  I liked it a lot at first but  I kind of do the  hate/watch thing now.  

 

Kate called Philip and inquired about that job because she is done with her marriage.  She did go up to SF to see the city and talk to Toby about them relocating up there only to find that Toby already has a plan for that.  He thought the way to show Kate said plan was through a patented Pearson grand gesture--the house.  Then she finds out Toby has already done all the work in procuring said house without her input.  That fell flat, but even then Kate would have come around to it.  But then, she finds out Toby has lied to her by omission once again with the job he turned down in LA.  Something he felt comfortable talking to his new boss about, but not her.  

[CdrJanny]

1 hour ago, Rootbeer said:

Kate has worked a couple of days a week at a school for the blind as an assistant music teacher for what?  6 months, maybe?  Maybe 100 days total? She doesn't have a degree in education, let alone in special education.  While I imagine Kate knows more about educating blind kids in preschool and elementary school than Toby; I disagree that she is any sort of expert on the subject or has done extensive research into learning aids for high school and college kids who are blind.

But . . . but . . . but Kate's a Pearson!  She knows everything about everything!  It's in her genes!

 .

[pennben]

41 minutes ago, mishap said:

Not quite sure how it's ok for Kate to apply for a job in LA but Toby is in trouble for not telling her about a job offer in LA. 

The marriage is over when Kate makes the call, even if they don’t ‘know’ it yet. 

[BlancheDevoreaux]

43 minutes ago, mishap said:

Not quite sure how it's ok for Kate to apply for a job in LA but Toby is in trouble for not telling her about a job offer in LA.  I  agree, that she should be mad at him for that.  Because it was something they should have discussed.  Duh.  Well it's a  dramatic tv show so i guess common sense judgement is non existent.    I just would not be the Pearsons if everyone  just talked about things and said what they were thinking.  It has to come out in the most dramatic or awkward way.  

I thought Kate said they  could not sustain the way they were living, in 2 cities, so her suggestion to go and visit Toby meant she was coming to see the city and think about moving there.  Well that  was what i assumed, so I don't think it was so terrible of Toby to show her a house.  Just a possibility.  If we live here, this is how we could live.  And i  know he was hoping she would say, oh I love it, let's buy it.   But he backed off when she was less than enthusiastic.  

Well whatever they do,  I got far enough into this show, i have to watch till the end.  I liked it a lot at first but  I kind of do the  hate/watch thing now.  

 

This. I'm sure they're going to go the route of "well, Kate is just responding to how Toby was making decisions about jobs without consulting her so she did the same thing", but if it was wrong for Toby, it was wrong for Kate.

[JudyObscure]

2 hours ago, marceline said:

Yeah the money issue really bothers me. You don't get that far down the road on financial stuff without looping in your spouse. 

But pre-approval on mortgage loans and finding out the market value of your house is not far down the road, it's step one.  I was a loan officer in a large Credit Union and we did pre-approvals by the hundreds every spring just because people felt like going out to look.  Toby did what you do before you call a realtor so he'll know what sort of house to show them.  The heartbreak comes when people don't start the way Toby did and fall in love with a house only to have their loan disapproved.  I saw a divorce happen over that, the wife was that disappointed.

Toby knew the time had come for Kate to move to SF. They couldn't go on the way they were and he wasn't going to give up a job he loved that made them a great salary.

 He planned to show her all the cool things about the city, have her meet the smart nice people he worked with, and show her a really nice house they could buy-- or-- tell the realtor who was standing there that she didn't love it because of X and he would have whipped out his phone and started showing her other options. 

I didn't hear Toby's ultimatum as anything other than him telling her, that there simply were no other realistic options, and she needed to admit that, quit stalling, and move to SF so the family could be together.   Otherwise it was over.  She chose "over"  because she thought her fun part time job and Jack's familiar route to the park was more important than having his father in the house.

[debraran]

 What was the job the woman was leaving at the school? I'm sure Kate will get it and probably get a raise and another raise when dating her boss, but I didn't catch what she did. I just focused on the cake.

Re the cake, Kate said she'd have water and that is fine but since Chrissy doesn't want to lose weight or she's wearing prosthesis to shock people later, why isn't it addressed that she is still battling food addiction? Was it ever brought up why if she is happy and over Jack's death she can't cut back on food?  A fan said she is very happy with herself off the show but why can't she just say that on it? I like myself? It's always about her sadness. I never thought about weight with other actresses, there may or may not be a passing joke or reference but it's just them. Chrissy/Kate has always been about food and weight. I don't understand how after the first pounds it wasn't mentioned by her family, they suggested for her to see a counselor. My daughter chimed in though, it would have to have failed since the older actress didn't lose the weight. Its such a circle of the same thing. I love Chrissy, but what they made Kate like , not so much. We will see how the next episodes play out.

Edited March 23, 2022 by debraran

[buttersister]

Does Rebecca have a backup for her morbidly obese daughter? Because we never got it clear whether or not Jack's heart attack was caused by underlying heart disease triggered by smoke inhalation. 

[debraran]

4 minutes ago, buttersister said:

Does Rebecca have a backup for her morbidly obese daughter? Because we never got it clear whether or not Jack's heart attack was caused by underlying heart disease triggered by smoke inhalation. 

I think it was implied since he hid it, it added to it. At least in the million interviews it was mentioned. I don't think he told Rebecca about it though, and that is a disservice to the children. Kate certainly and Kevin should know their dad had a heart issue.

[qtpye]

2 hours ago, CleoCaesar said:

Exactly this. The show is telling, not showing. Toby still feels like Toby to me as a viewer. He's not some cold husband who doesn't care about his kids. He's been busting his ass all season, constantly flying between cities to see his family and being the breadwinner. He's still affectionate and fun and into planning big days together. His big sin (up until the job offer reveal, which I still think the show threw in there because a Pearson can never be wrong) was extreme self-improvement.

But all of that is not enough for our Kate. She needs Toby to be fat like herself, depressed and miserable, and happy in complacency. That's the Toby she wants and needs. To call theirs an unhealthy dynamic is an understatement.

 

2 hours ago, Good Queen Jane said:

When they showed Old Toby, I remembered why I didn't like him. And this is the man Kate prefers over Now Toby? Kate has terrible taste in men.

 

1 hour ago, Rootbeer said:

Kate has worked a couple of days a week at a school for the blind as an assistant music teacher for what?  6 months, maybe?  Maybe 100 days total? She doesn't have a degree in education, let alone in special education.  While I imagine Kate knows more about educating blind kids in preschool and elementary school than Toby; I disagree that she is any sort of expert on the subject or has done extensive research into learning aids for high school and college kids who are blind.

Kate has learned from Jack that she is the center of the universe and there is no reason for her to work hard because she will always be taken care of whether it is Jack, her mother, or her two wealthy brothers. She prefers old Toby because he was all about her. This Toby takes business calls, does CrossFit, and actually has other interests than quoting movies.

There is a disconnect because the character of Kate is leading a healthier life but the actress is still the same size. Why did she look hurt when Toby made a little comment about her climbing that hill? Yes, many larger people can exercise well but can Kate? Taking a leisurely stroll with your kids is not the same as climbing an extremely steep hill.

That being said, Toby also did some jerky things, as well.  I actually hated the old Hawaiian shirt, Toby. He was so annoying.

I think the person that said they outgrew each other was right.

They found each other in misery and now that they are happy, as individuals, they no longer have any use for each other.

 

Edited March 23, 2022 by qtpye

[SunnyBeBe]

I thought the house Toby was so wild about had a guest apt over the garage that he meant the in-laws could live, not just visit.  

[marceline]

Allow me to cosign all the comments about walking The Hill in San Francisco. I visited SF in 2009 years ago on business. I was young, skinny, and way healthier. I even visited the gym regularly. 

Walking the hills of San Francisco damn near killed me. I spent my first night in San Francisco with my feet soaking in the tub and wishing I had some epsom salts. 

The scene of Kate walking up the hill resonated hard. The fact that she was apparently all alone on the street when she did - no other people on the sidewalk or cars in the road - did the opposite. It drove me crazy.

[Empress1]

19 minutes ago, buttersister said:

Because we never got it clear whether or not Jack's heart attack was caused by underlying heart disease triggered by smoke inhalation. 

I thought that was canon? Wasn't there something when he was enlisting and saw a doctor, and the doctor said he had heart trouble but it wasn't enough to keep him out of the service or did I make that up? I feel like Jack was always going to die of a heart attack*, it was just a question of when.

*I knew a man - a doctor, at that - who had a history of heart problems in his family so he took very good care of himself. Heart-healthy diet, very fit and athletic. He dropped dead of a heart attack after a bike ride when he was in his 50s. As another doctor who knew him said, he couldn't beat his genes. I thought it was established that Jack had similar genetic issues.

7 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I thought the house Toby was so wild about had a guest apt over the garage that he meant the in-laws could live, not just visit.  

I think he said "where your mom and Miguel could stay," which could be interpreted as "stay when they visit" or "stay permanently."

8 minutes ago, qtpye said:

There is a disconnect because the character of Kate is leading a healthier life but the actress is still the same size.

I don't know how much weight Chrissy Metz has or has not lost or gained or what, but for someone that size who is losing weight the slow and steady way through lifestyle changes, it would take a while for it to show. Kate/Chrissy may well be 20, 30 pounds lighter, but it would be hard to notice at first. (I think the same would also be true for smaller amounts of weight gain.)

Edited March 23, 2022 by Empress1

[Racj82]

11 hours ago, phalange said:

If you see your spouse as an equal, you do not practically buy a house without telling them. Toby didn't even give Kate a hint that he was looking at houses, didn't show her a picture beforehand, nothing, just sprung the house on her. People condemn Jack for buying a house without telling Rebecca, so why is it okay when Toby does it? 

He also made their weekend all about his work. First by taking a work call immediately after sex (who does that?!) then by being on a work call while they were supposed to be enjoying a day out together and moreover, being angry that Kate was facetiming the kids. So he can be on a work call, but Kate can't talk to the children? And shouldn't he want to talk to them as well, considering, ya know, they're his kids too? "I'm mad at you for talking to our toddler children" is an...interesting hill to die on. Lastly, he just assumed, again without asking (I'm sensing a theme!) that Kate would want to spend her evening at a work event at his boss' place. 

Not telling her about the job offer was beyond shitty. Especially because their whole thing was that San Francisco would be temporary until he found a job in L.A. And now when he gets a job offer in L.A. he just turns it down without talking to Kate, much like how he accepted the SF job without talking to her. He could have apologized, but no, he instead doubled down by giving her an ultimatum. "You have to move here, there's no other option." Um, excuse me? I absolutely would've walked out too. 

I would argue that he just knows his wife. So, he wanted all his ducks in a row before he even brought moving to her. 

The job thing was just shitty. But, I think Toby, in general is just so wary of creating more arguments at this point. It's a part of relationships. He should toughen up and deal but their relationship seems exhausting at this point.

[Clawdette]

I believe in order for us to feel the sympathy that the writers clearly intend us to feel for Kate, they would have had to do a better job of developing the character.  When I reflect on past episodes throughout the series, I can only remember Kate's scenes being largely about her weight.  Kevin and Randall, while each had a primary internal driver, also had divergent threads to explore.  I see more facets of them than their sister.

Kate has been chronically depressed her entire life. Even when times were relatively calm, she seemed waiting for the other shoe to drop. She may be written as having a happy marriage to Philip, I'm not buying it.