S01.E09: Let the Tournament Begin

[JenE4]

Whelp, that was underwhelming. Everyone knew that Bertha would strong-arm her way into society and Raikes would turn out to be a rake and the social climber that every single character besides Marian and Peggy called him out to be. Even the late-breaking stories were easily called. Peggy has a “dead” child—we all knew that baby was alive and well! And as soon as they put in the episode description that Boudin had a secret life, I called that he wasn’t French—but with the joke that he was  actually Belgian (I guess you got me that I didn’t call Witchita). So…it turned out that the biggest season-finale twist that no one saw coming was that the quadrille costumes that Bertha got were…{drumroll}…mini Marie Antoinettes and dancing horses?!?! Wow! Didn’t see that one coming!

[MollyB]

18 hours ago, CarpeFelis said:

 

18 hours ago, CarpeFelis said:

 I really wanted to see her slap him then and tell him off.

 

I don't think in that society she could have done this.  In fact, she can't show any emotion that might be questioned as then she would have to explain why she was upset and in turn reveal the elopement plans.  That would have major consequences. It would stain her reputation and bring shame on Agnes' house.  Gossip would probably have her as a 'fallen' woman, perhaps assuming the quickie marriage was because of pregnancy. She couldn't let anyone know that she and Raikes were (almost) intimate.  She'd have to move in with Mrs. Chamberlain.

Of course, the fact that she practically put a fire sign in front of the house announcing her impending elopement by giving the letters to Larry (and then making up that ridiculous story about him on his way to post 'his' letters), sneaking the suitcase out in front of Ada and out right lying to Agnes who has the best bullsh*t detector ever has me shaking my head.

Edited March 23, 2022 by MollyB

[MollyB]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

I guess Marian should be grateful because if she'd sat there a minute longer Larry would have had time to give her letters to her aunts.

I think Aurora and the waiting at Mrs. C's and the office confrontation were supposed to be building a cliffhanger moment regarding the letters.  Problem for me was that I completely forgot about the letters.....

And while I'm on the subject of letters:  Raikes is sitting there with at least three pieces of paper in his hands and says I was going to write you (as he waves them) - How freaking long a letter does it take to say "bye, Felicia'?  Was he going to drop it off at Mrs. C's on his way to the ball?  What a cad!

Edited March 23, 2022 by MollyB

[kristen111]

5 hours ago, Lassus said:

I would like to take a moment to speak out against Turner as a character.  The scripting for her was really really telegraphed and uninteresting.

To me Turner was uninteresting.  She told George she would be everything he needed.  How so?  Better in bed?  I’m sure Bertha took care of him.

[sistermagpie]

29 minutes ago, MollyB said:

I think Aurora and the waiting at Mrs. C's and the office confrontation were supposed to be building a cliffhanger moment regarding the letters.  Problem for me was that I completely forgot about the letters.....

And while I'm on the subject of letters:  Raikes is sitting there with at least three pieces of paper in his hands and says I was going to write you (as he waves them) - How freaking long a letter does it take to say "bye, Felicia'?  Was he going to drop it off at Mrs. C's on his way to the ball?  What a cad!

It looked like he was going to write her after he finished doing his paperwork for the day. Probably so he would be free for the ball he was literally planning to go to that evening with somebody else!

[AZChristian]

6 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It looked like he was going to write her after he finished doing his paperwork for the day. Probably so he would be free for the ball he was literally planning to go to that evening with somebody else rich!

Fixed it for ya!

[Yours Truly]

My guess is the scandal with the chef may be a bit of foreshadowing about someone not being who they say they are.

I'm thinking a very possible storyline will be the origins of the Russells. They are obviously new money and come from the working class which makes them outcasts in old society. That is the whole premise of the first season. Okey doke. No mysteries there. Or is there? I think Bertha will of course run into snags come season two because she's still going to have to adjust her footing as she goes. There's still more to be done and plenty to "earn" with the old crowd.

I wonder if maybe we don't find out that Bertha or George are a part of the "one drop" rule..???

And on that note someone mentioned the shadow that is Peggy's ex husband. I wonder if her son is mixed. There is a seriously unreasonable aspect to her fathers reaction to her marriage and the child. His dialogue about the situation and the boy was worded in a way that seemed a bit intentional by the writers. hmmmmmmmm.... 

I really don't like the yellow on Marian but the dresses really are lovely. I'm so curious as to why they chose to dress her in that color SO VERY OFTEN. The frequency really stands out to me. It's like, I'm over here thinking "really? another yellow dress? Enough already!" Lol. 

I have to say I do appreciate the pace of the show and I love the deadpan delivery of dialogue. I love that the wit stands on its own and isn't drowned out by overacting or theatrics. I love how it's directed to be intense without too much intensity. It keeps the energy light and the audience is able to focus and catch so much of the nuance that is happening in each scene. Also, as lackluster as it may seem, I don't mind the light thud of some of the storylines, or the decidedly non-grandiose closure of others. I don't want to be in the throws of anxiety and heartbreak when I watch TV shows. I can usually muster the strength for a movie but I don't want beat down after beat down after beat down every week so the way they introduce, tackle then resolve strife and drama works for me. 

I'm happy the Raikes storyline is somewhat over. I hope it stays that way. And I'm happy each occurrence of "scandal or strife" isn't stretched out over weeks and weeks. The Russell strive to be accepted was a season long dilemma but that was okay because that was the overall theme and expected its the minor hiccups and snags and dilemmas that happened along the way but dispensed of in a timely manner that had me relieved. To much gets too messy and frustrating. 

[Affogato]

3 hours ago, Jodithgrace said:

Well, considering that they named a character Raikes, and then had him turn out to be a rake, I don’t believe that subtlety in metaphor was what they were going for. 
 

I am doing a presentation on Edith Wharton on Monday for this continuing education class I am involved in. In my research I found out this delightful tidbit. Edith Wharton’s family, The Joneses of New York, were supposedly the Joneses with whom everybody wanted to keep up.  Thus the origin of the phrase. It would have been fun for me to have seen Edith Jones, as her family was mentioned once. 
 

I did enjoy the series, though sometimes I found the costumes to be extremely ugly, with unflattering colors, especially Marian’s. She had one dress I liked, a yellow suit which she wore a couple of times, but most of the time the costume designers did her no favors. 
 

The Statue of Liberty arm didn’t look large enough to me. I had read that people climbed in it to the torch, as they did when the statue was put in NY Harbor. You can’t do that anymore, but it was still like that when I was a child. But that arm didn’t look big enough for people to go inside. 

The statue of liberty’s arm is 42 feet tall. The one on the park was a prototype. 

[One Imaginary Girl]

What surprised me a lot about the finale was that so many of the invitations to the ball and acceptances of these invitations seemed to occur at the last minute.  Was that proper back then?  I would hate it even nowadays, and I don't even need to have elaborate hand-made gowns for the kind of social events I attend.  

[KarenX]

10 minutes ago, One Imaginary Girl said:

What surprised me a lot about the finale was that so many of the invitations to the ball and acceptances of these invitations seemed to occur at the last minute.  Was that proper back then?  I would hate it even nowadays, and I don't even need to have elaborate hand-made gowns for the kind of social events I attend.  

1. They truly had so little to do but go to each other’s houses.

2. They had servants to do their hair, at home. Very convenient.?

3. Bertha didn’t care if it were proper. She was making a point. The actuality of the thing mattered the most here. And the newspaper reporters outside only saw (and documented) the spectacle. She knows it wasn’t true hospitality or society but Those People appeared at Her House, as a group, to fanfare.

[Cheezwiz]

14 minutes ago, One Imaginary Girl said:

I would hate it even nowadays, and I don't even need to have elaborate hand-made gowns for the kind of social events I attend.  

I was thinking the same thing. I can barely pull myself together for an impromptu evening out, and I don't need the help of a ladies maid to get dressed!

[KarenX]

What surprised me was how little Gladys we saw. I was expecting more ceremony. I don’t know. Maybe after her quadrille they would have all come down the stairs in finery and formation, and someone would have announced her?

Maybe that’s a 20th Century wedding thing.

Maybe the ball being for her in the invitation is the official announcement. Even if no one came, she would still be “out,” right? Albeit with no cachet or aura to raise her status.

[phoenics]

11 hours ago, Pestilentia said:

Well, I don't see the hotness in George that some of the rest of y'all are seeing. In fact IMO there is not one hot man on this entire show. Larry is as bland as Wonder Bread, Oscar looks like a live action Snidely Whiplash, Raikes is no bueno, and while John Adams is passable I don't see him being featured in any storylines aside from messing with Oscar. Just think we need some real man candy on this show- men with charm and charisma.

Here's what occurred to me, and forgive me if this is an old white lady talking out of her ass, but- maybe, just maybe.

Maybe after having seen such suffering and families torn apart with zero regard for emotion or love- maybe after a lifetime of seeing that repeatedly one can become desensitized to the wrenching apart of a family. Maybe he had seen it so many times- saw mothers and babies wrenched apart so often- yet recover and go on to have more babies and a good life. Maybe he thought yeah, it's going to hurt her but she'll get over it and go on to have a successful life, a worthy husband, and more babies. Life was cheap, women lost babies all the time and got over it.  The end justifies the means.

I'm not excusing his actions- they are inexcusable. But maybe he thought he was justified in his actions and used the above rationalization to convince himself that he was doing it for Peggy's own good. He had to have had some thought process going on- he's not a stupid man. He was clearly very wrong but I think he thinks he did it for the right reasons. How Peggy and Mrs. Scott are going to deal with him going forward is more interesting to me than the existence of a baby, which as someone mentioned upthread hardly ever makes a show better. Especially a period piece. Maybe a child could serve as an excuse to hire yet another nanny, but we have enough characters on this show so IMO we don't need more. We just need the ones we already have to do something interesting.   

I'd like to see Aunt Agnes describe her purpose in living.  A discussion between Agnes and Ada about their lives, what they do all day, what purpose they serve. And not Agnes' standard issue quips as a reply, but just one good, real conversation that puts Baranski to better use. IMO she is wasted so far and needs something to dig into- IMO some navel gazing on her end would be a good peek behind the curtains of her life. Has she any aspirations? Pet causes? Any interests at all? I'd like Aunt Agnes to be better fleshed out.

I totally agree with you - I don't know why that quote is attributed to me - I didn't make it?

[izabella]

2 hours ago, KarenX said:

What surprised me was how little Gladys we saw. I was expecting more ceremony. I don’t know. Maybe after her quadrille they would have all come down the stairs in finery and formation, and someone would have announced her?

I have been looking forward to seeing Gladys' makeover at her ball for several episodes now, and felt short-changed.  They gave her a short entrance from the side, and we barely got to see her dress.  I thought she looked lovely in her gown, though I didn't love that shade of lavender on her.

It was all about Bertha, though.  As George said, she was the belle of the ball that night.

I loved the tiaras and fancy jewels at the ball, but did anyone notice Aurora Fane's necklace at the opera?  Wow!

[bybrandy]

On 3/22/2022 at 9:52 AM, showme said:

Who is the more attractive one in your eyes?

All of them?  I think Oscar is easily the least attractive person on the show by no small margin.   

[phoenics]

14 hours ago, kristen111 said:

I’m surprised also that there wasn’t anything going on in Agnes’s house too.  All they did was gossip and sew in the dark. No dinner parties that I can recall ..nothing.  And why after all these years didn’t they associate with Mrs. Chamberlain.  How much could they shun her?  Society was too snobbish.  What a shame and waste of life for that woman.

 

I too really don't get why Agnes and Ada didn't plan parties for Marian to meet eligible men.  Instead they balked at any man Marian had near her.  

Is it because technically they are all still in mourning for Marian's father - even if they don't like him?  

And as for Mrs. Chamberlain - at the time, being with a woman who had "ruined" herself by shacking up with and sleeping with and having a child with a man who wasn't her husband while he was still married would have "ruined" any woman associating with that woman.

That's why Aurora Fane really did elevate herself this whole season - she took a huge L going to Mrs. Chamberlain's where she could be seen just to warn Marian.  This could lead to Mrs. Chamberlain being released from her scandal prison?  I hope so - that moment between her and Aurora where Aurora thanked her was sweet - but not if she just has to go back to being ostracized.

When did society stop doing that to women?  Anyone know?

 

[phoenics]

On 3/22/2022 at 10:39 AM, Yeah No said:

I'm sure there are, I know people like that.  But even they show some sort of reaction, even if it's not a direct emotional one.  They could become crabby, start drinking, abuse the dog, overeat, engage in hidden strange behavior, even silent depression, etc.  It comes out somehow even if a person isn't emotional.  No reaction at all is not IMHO realistic.  That isn't to say we won't see evidence of some reaction next season, though.  It may not be an emotional one.  She may react by being overeager to turn over a new leaf and get involved in a not-so-advisable rebound relationship or throw herself into some sort of work.  It should come out somehow.  If it doesn't, I won't find it very believable.

I think Marian did have an emotional reaction - it was just contained because she didn't have time to dwell on it when it happened.  But right outside of Raike's office, she started to crumble and Peggy ran up to her - honestly it looked like her knees buckled a bit.  She was definitely shaking.  But then she had to rush back to Agnes' house to stop Larry from giving her and Ada the letters.

Then she went numb.

She went to the party - still looking shaky - and then really almost lost it when she saw Raikes show up with Miss Bingley.  But she couldn't fall apart because it would ruin her if people knew what had transpired between her and Raikes.

I'm not a fan of the actress' portrayal of Marian and think Marian would be better if played by someone else, but I do think she did show emotion.  I agree she could have shown more - especially in her scenes with Raikes - I would have liked it better if we could tell she was telling him that silly "no bitterness" line while shooting absolute DAGGERS with her eyes.

But maybe we're meant to understand that she never loved him.

[kristen111]

4 minutes ago, phoenics said:

I think Marian did have an emotional reaction - it was just contained because she didn't have time to dwell on it when it happened.  But right outside of Raike's office, she started to crumble and Peggy ran up to her - honestly it looked like her knees buckled a bit.  She was definitely shaking.  But then she had to rush back to Agnes' house to stop Larry from giving her and Ada the letters.

Then she went numb.

She went to the party - still looking shaky - and then really almost lost it when she saw Raikes show up with Miss Bingley.  But she couldn't fall apart because it would ruin her if people knew what had transpired between her and Raikes.

I'm not a fan of the actress' portrayal of Marian and think Marian would be better if played by someone else, but I do think she did show emotion.  I agree she could have shown more - especially in her scenes with Raikes - I would have liked it better if we could tell she was telling him that silly "no bitterness" line while shooting absolute DAGGERS with her eyes.

But maybe we're meant to understand that she never loved him.

Who knows.  Also, not to be mean, but I didn’t care for Gladys.  Compared to Mrs. Astor’s elegant daughter, Gladys looked like a kid.  Too young for that part IMO.  No offense to the actress, but I think Fellows could have done better with Gladys and Marian.  Two important roles.

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, kristen111 said:

Who knows.  Also, not to be mean, but I didn’t care for Gladys.  Compared to Mrs. Astor’s elegant daughter, Gladys looked like a kid.  Too young for that part IMO.  No offense to the actress, but I think Fellows could have done better with Gladys and Marian.  Two important roles.

Too young to play a teenager at 27. She must have some good skincare. 😉

[phoenics]

13 minutes ago, kristen111 said:

Who knows.  Also, not to be mean, but I didn’t care for Gladys.  Compared to Mrs. Astor’s elegant daughter, Gladys looked like a kid.  Too young for that part IMO.  No offense to the actress, but I think Fellows could have done better with Gladys and Marian.  Two important roles.

If you look on the extras and behind the scenes, you'll see the actress.  She appears much more her age there.  I was shocked and had to google to make sure that was really who was playing Gladys, lol.  So I think her "too young" look is an artifact of the way the show does her hair, makeup and wardrobe.  I think Bertha was intentionally dressing her too young and keeping her young to divert attention away from the fact that she wasn't "out" yet.

I wonder if she'll appear more her age next season?

[BabyBella94]

what would you guys like to see in the next season?

10 hours ago, dmc said:

Mrs. Chamberlain encouraged the relationship because the man she risked it all for legitimately loved her.  She didn’t know Marian’s guy was a coward wimpy loser. She trusted Marian’s judgment. 

eh still....she should've known better imo. 

Edited March 24, 2022 by BabyBella94
Because I didn't like it.

[kristen111]

45 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Too young to play a teenager at 27. She must have some good skincare. 😉

Had no idea she was 27.

[Shermie]

Quote

I feel like we cannot discuss an episode without mentioning Marion's atrocious pale yellow ball gown that looked made her skin sallow and the red flower that made her look like a deer recently shot.  

So weird, because on my tv the dress looked pale green. I liked the dress minus the giant smushed beet on her chest.

1 hour ago, kristen111 said:

Also, not to be mean, but I didn’t care for Gladys.  Compared to Mrs. Astor’s elegant daughter, Gladys looked like a kid.

Aw, I thought Gladys looked great. Considering she actually looked like a schoolgirl all season with her Mary Ingalls hairdo and giant bows. She was happy to be “out” (still think that concept is stupid) and will now live the life of a grown woman.

Loved the ball, very Julian Fellowes. The choreographed waltz was a copy of the scene in the Downton movie.

Also love Bertha and George, so thirsty and good at it. I, too, hope that Bertha and Agnes become sniping frenemies; they can commiserate over their terrible old biddy names.

Why would Marian call Raikes “Mr. Raikes” when she was talking to Mrs. Chamberlain? Does he have a first name? Wouldn’t you refer to the guy you’re marrying by his first name? It’s not like she was talking about him in polite society and was expected to adhere to stuffy manners.

Looking forward to season 2. Hopefully they fine tune the awkward parts.

[dmc]

14 hours ago, Pestilentia said:

Well, I don't see the hotness in George that some of the rest of y'all are seeing. In fact IMO there is not one hot man on this entire show. Larry is as bland as Wonder Bread, Oscar looks like a live action Snidely Whiplash, Raikes is no bueno, and while John Adams is passable I don't see him being featured in any storylines aside from messing with Oscar. Just think we need some real man candy on this show- men with charm and charisma.

agreed

[Melina22]

On 3/22/2022 at 12:46 PM, Pestilentia said:

When I find myself scrutinizing an actor's face in an attempt to discern what look they are trying to put on their character's face, well- that's when I know they can't act

Interesting. I sometimes wonder if some people just genetically have faces that don't express emotion well. Therefore, they aren't going to be great actors unless the part calls for someone stonefaced and inscrutable. (Keanu?) 

This is why we get so upset when fantastic actors we love get way too much surgery and/or Botox, and suddenly they're unable to convince us they're feeling anything. Watching them becomes painful and disappointing. 

That said, Louisa was showing genuine emotion in this episode, with visible tears, but in shows like this, on our relatively small TV/laptop /phone screens, we expect to see a lot more. 

The ball was glorious though. I always find it so strange that in a time we think of as so restrictive and prudish, people partied till the next day, as the dancing and champagne flowed, driving home in the morning light. 

[Lassus]

8 hours ago, kristen111 said:

She told George she would be everything he needed.  How so?  Better in bed?  I’m sure Bertha took care of him.

Yes, that was a very weird bit of dialogue, like they were stuck or just bored in the writing room.

[KarenX]

1 hour ago, Melina22 said:

The ball was glorious though. I always find it so strange that in a time we think of as so restrictive and prudish, people partied till the next day, as the dancing and champagne flowed, driving home in the morning light. 

I thought the image of poor Newsie Butler dozing on a wooden bench in the foyer so Miss Marian wouldn’t have to open her own door was a sobering counterpoint.

He doesn’t get to sleep it off, either.

ADDING: Richies are going to rich, so excess doesn’t surprise me, but I do think most “grown ups” went home early. Ada was in her robe, waiting up for Marian, I believe. Only the youngsters partied all night. Right?

Edited March 24, 2022 by KarenX
Quoted too much. Deleted the excess.

[MizLottie]

On 3/22/2022 at 10:29 AM, Atlanta said:

My heart breaks for Peggy and Dorothy. Do we know how old her son is? I'm puzzled as to her father's reasoning of what he did. She was a married woman who had a baby. There's nothing shameful in that. 

I was listening to a podcast and they suggested that maybe Peggy's husband was white, that would be an interesting twist to Peggy's story and maybe why her father was so against the guy.  We really don't know much about him other than he was uneducated and worked at the pharmacy.

[Brn2bwild]

13 hours ago, izabella said:

I don't think women did business back then.   

Women did do business back then. It was just not viewed as the norm, and they faced many legal/social roadblocks.  Gladys hasn't been developed to have the sort of personality that would gravitate toward business.

[bobbyjoe]

The strangest storyline of the season is Watson, the bald servant in the Russell household.  He’s played by the great Michael Cerveris of Broadway (like Sweeney Todd) and television (like Fringe) fame, so there would seem to be a reason for casting such a strong actor in the  role.  But his storyline goes nowhere and is never explained.  

We see him hanging around outside someone’s house on one episode; going up to her door on another episode and asking her if she remembers him; then when Flora McNeil is announced at the ball in the finale it’s the woman he was watching and he gives her a furtive look.  That’s it.  There’s no real explanation.  Out of this great big cast we tend to get at least some explanation of all of their stories, but Watson remains a mystery.

Did:  A) I miss something; B) some scenes that better explained this storyline were left on the cutting room floor; or C) Julian Fellowes simply forgot about developing or even explaining this storyline?

[JenE4]

2 hours ago, bobbyjoe said:

The strangest storyline of the season is Watson, the bald servant in the Russell household.  He’s played by the great Michael Cerveris of Broadway (like Sweeney Todd) and television (like Fringe) fame, so there would seem to be a reason for casting such a strong actor in the  role.  But his storyline goes nowhere and is never explained.  

We see him hanging around outside someone’s house on one episode; going up to her door on another episode and asking her if she remembers him; then when Flora McNeil is announced at the ball in the finale it’s the woman he was watching and he gives her a furtive look.  That’s it.  There’s no real explanation.  Out of this great big cast we tend to get at least some explanation of all of their stories, but Watson remains a mystery.

Did:  A) I miss something; B) some scenes that better explained this storyline were left on the cutting room floor; or C) Julian Fellowes simply forgot about developing or even explaining this storyline?

I’m going to posit D) Somehow this is the big cliffhanger ending we’re left with?! Will Peggy find her baby? Okay, solid storyline for season 2 (even though the answer is of course she will). But why is the bald servant who has no other storyline stalking some other random woman who has no other storyline? This isn’t exactly leaving us on the edge of our seats with bated breath. For as visually stunning and for as much potential as this show had, the plotline choices were really off. I feel like maybe they just wanted to introduce us to everyone who will continue to be developed over the coming seasons. And maybe it was necessary to give these actors scenes simply so they would sign on for a 5-year contract (or whatever—total speculation) rather than saying you’re just going to be a background character until we can get to you in season 2 or 3? But they didn’t give us enough character development on this guy nor most the downstairs characters for us to be invested in their story. Practically all of them were shown for 5 seconds reading a letter or peering across the street and then somehow that meant some Big Thing about them that we were supposed to care about?!? Sorry, writers, you need to do better than that. Nine episodes does seem rather tight to try to develop characters for such a large ensemble cast. Perhaps if they had more episodes to work with all of these ancillary storylines wouldn’t have seemed so oddly tacked on and, frankly, pointless. I mean, Newsie got a whole episode on his family origins! I’m guessing this guy will get an episode next season?

Edited March 24, 2022 by JenE4

[Roseanna]

10 hours ago, phoenics said:

I think Marian did have an emotional reaction - it was just contained because she didn't have time to dwell on it when it happened.  But right outside of Raike's office, she started to crumble and Peggy ran up to her - honestly it looked like her knees buckled a bit.  She was definitely shaking.  But then she had to rush back to Agnes' house to stop Larry from giving her and Ada the letters.

Then she went numb.

She went to the party - still looking shaky - and then really almost lost it when she saw Raikes show up with Miss Bingley.  But she couldn't fall apart because it would ruin her if people knew what had transpired between her and Raikes.

I'm not a fan of the actress' portrayal of Marian and think Marian would be better if played by someone else, but I do think she did show emotion.  I agree she could have shown more - especially in her scenes with Raikes - I would have liked it better if we could tell she was telling him that silly "no bitterness" line while shooting absolute DAGGERS with her eyes.

But maybe we're meant to understand that she never loved him.

In the second season of Downton Abbey, Lady Mary had to hide her love for Matthew who was fighting in the WW2 and engaged to Lavinia, but the audience saw and understood her feelings because (1) the actress was better and (2) we felt huge sympathy towards her while at the same time felt wanted that she had to pay for mistakes she had made in S1 - Mary and Matthew's scenes were in a way "enjoyable torment" to watch.

In this show, the greatest problem IMO was the the combination of the writing, the actress, and the audience - we never were won over to this romance nor Marian, so we watch her reactions coldly from outside.

[Roseanna]

On 3/23/2022 at 3:43 AM, BabyBella94 said:

I hope they don't bring any new love interest for Marian (only bc I like Larry and her together lol) and also because this show has enough characters as it is and they can barely focus on their storylines. 

I think this show definitely *demands* new male characters to compete for both Marian and Gladys' hand. Instead, Turner and most of servants' plots out can be left out.  

Larry is still too young to marry. It takes him years to become an architect. Plus, it would be too self-evident and without proper stakes. 

Instead, Agnes could try to marry Marian off to some middle-aged man from Old Money, maybe a widower with a grown-up son. And Marian should have something interesting to do, besides buying clothes and going to parties (f.eg. teaching immigrants to read and write?) 

 

[Roseanna]

7 hours ago, KarenX said:

ADDING: Richies are going to rich, so excess doesn’t surprise me, but I do think most “grown ups” went home early. Ada was in her robe, waiting up for Marian, I believe. Only the youngsters partied all night. Right?

No. Irl it was the mothers' job to watch over their daughters in parties, f.eg. who their dance partners were, that they didn't dance with "wrong" men or dance too often with the same man which was considered proper only to an engaged couple.

Let's assume that Aurora did this job. 

[chediavolo]

So Peggy‘s father turns out to be the worst of them all in terms of humanity. What an awful awful man. Loved this episode I didn’t know it was the finale. Going to miss it. Marion really has the personality of a dish rag. Her meekness when it comes to giving Rakes his due, combined with the poor acting on the part of Ms. Jacobson, ugh. 

[Sakura12]

18 hours ago, kristen111 said:

To me Turner was uninteresting.  She told George she would be everything he needed.  How so?  Better in bed?  I’m sure Bertha took care of him

I also don't know what she planned on offering him that Bertha didn't. We saw them have sex a few episodes ago so they are not having issues in that department. I don't think she realized that they are not a society marriage like the old money people. The Russell's actually love each other. Which is why I hope they don't do they typical TV affair to make issues in their marriage. That is the best thing about them. 

I remember Taissa Farmiga from the first season of American Horror story when she was an actual teenager. Her sister still looks good to, so they have good genes. Since she's out she should be able to dress older next season. 

[Kirsty]

19 hours ago, Yours Truly said:

I'm thinking a very possible storyline will be the origins of the Russells

Totally. I would expect people from Bertha's former life -- probably family -- to show up and unintentionally threaten her good standing in the eyes of all the old moneyed snobs she's trying so hard to impress. I just hope the show doesn't lay on the Irish stereotypes too thickly for her family members or it will be v cringe-inducing.

 

6 hours ago, bobbyjoe said:

Did:  A) I miss something; B) some scenes that better explained this storyline were left on the cutting room floor; or C) Julian Fellowes simply forgot about developing or even explaining this storyline?

😆I know, right? Bald servant is still skulking about mysteriously in the finale, like some guy who just spotted his ex in the supermarket aisle. But you didn't miss anything.

What do people here think Julian Fellowes' strengths and weaknesses are as a writer? I think he can create good female characters. I particularly like that he doesn't try to make all his heroines nice people. Lady Mary wasn't nice, nor is Bertha Russell, and f*ck the haters. And I know from Gosford Park that he can write good, sharp dialogue when he tries. Withering put-downs, and passive-aggressive jabs. I like that his world view isn't especially romantic and he's very concerned with money and class. But his stories are often overly broad and lacking in subtlety, he's terrible at plotting out a storyline, and he sometimes fails at taking the viewers along with him. So on Downton Abbey, I'd say most viewers just wished the Bates Crime & Punishment saga would end.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Kirsty

[kristen111]

On 3/21/2022 at 10:03 PM, CleoCaesar said:

I don’t really like this show, but the ballroom dancing scene was gorgeous.

 

 

I didn’t think they would get it all in, but they did.  Everything in one hour.  I was pleasantly surprised.  By time they come back, I hope they have electricity.  Poor Ada sewing in the dark, lol.

[kristen111]

On 3/21/2022 at 10:13 PM, Brian Cronin said:

What's everyone's take on this thing? Where Fellowes just takes actual events from history and has them happen to characters on the show. I am unsure of whether I think it's clever or kind of half-assed. 

What’s with these unnecessary pop ups like the drunken chef, etc,?  Who cares?

[AZChristian]

3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I think this show definitely *demands* new male characters to compete for both Marian and Gladys' hand. 

============

. . . Agnes could try to marry Marian off to some middle-aged man from Old Money, maybe a widower with a grown-up son. 

 

Would be an interesting plot twist if they had one new guy who would be a love interest for both Marian and Gladys.  

==============

Given what we've heard about Agnes' husband, I don't think she would try to "marry Marian off."  Any guy who is interested in Marian would have to win Agnes' approval.  She was right about Raikes.  Marian seems to be a simpleton and would walk right back into a similar situation if her aunts weren't watching out for her.

But it would be an interesting twist if Marian DID marry an old-money, middle-aged man with a grown son.  Then the grown son could court Gladys, and Marian could end up being Gladys' mother-in-law.  (Just kidding.  I think.)

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, AZChristian said:

Given what we've heard about Agnes' husband, I don't think she would try to "marry Marian off."  

I believe just the opposite, based on what Agnes said to Ada: secururity is the most importang thing on marriage and affection hopefully grows on time. As we know that Marian's hopeless taste in men, Agnes is foolish to leave the matter to her. 

[Jeddah]

3 hours ago, Kirsty said:

What do people here think Julian Fellowes' strengths and weaknesses are as a writer? I think he can create good female characters. I particularly like that he doesn't try to make all his heroines nice people. Lady Mary wasn't nice, nor is Bertha Russell, and f*ck the haters. And I know from Gosford Park that he can write good, sharp dialogue when he tries. Withering put-downs, and passive-aggressive jabs. I like that his world view isn't especially romantic and he's very concerned with money and class. But his stories are often overly broad and lacking in subtlety, he's terrible at plotting out a storyline, and he sometimes fails at taking the viewers along with him. So on Downton Abbey, I'd say most viewers just wished the Bates Crime & Punishment saga would end.

Belgravia was bad. It made me think a lot less of Julian Fellowes. It was that bad. It had so many plotholes, and the big reveal happened offscreen. I’d say his biggest strength is showing a different side of time periods and lifestyles our society has romanticized. His weaknesses are storylines with major plot holes. He also seems to reuse the same storylines. Downtown, Belgravia, and Gilded age all have plot lines about babies being born in secret and removed from their families. There’s also always a young woman going against her family’s wishes to be with a guy “unworthy” of her. Although I think Raikes is the only time it’s been changed up a little, and he really is unworthy of Marian. And whether or not the guy Peggy married was a good guy or not is still up in the air.

[peeayebee]

On 3/23/2022 at 9:46 AM, iMonrey said:

So what would have happened if Aurora hadn't gone to Mrs. Chamberlain's to tell Marian she saw Raikes canoodling with another girl? Would Marian just have continued to sit there forever?

Season 1 would have ended with Marian sitting and waiting, and Season 2 would begin with Marian sitting and waiting.

Although I was disappointed with this show, I'll still watch S2. It's a diversion. The costumes and set decor are nice to watch.

Like others (many others), I had a big problem with the actress playing Marian. Dull, uncharismatic, a blank slate, boring. Are all those synonyms? Anyway, I think the show would have improved vastly had they cast a different actress. I think the Raikes/Marian storyline would have been more interesting with someone else. I didn't think the actor playing Raikes was bad, but I think he lacked chemistry with Marian because she lacks chemistry with everyone. I can believe he loved her, or that he thought he did, but just got caught up in the excitement of society. She seemed to be sleepwalking thru the show.

 

4 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

The Russell's actually love each other. Which is why I hope they don't do they typical TV affair to make issues in their marriage. That is the best thing about them. 

I agree. I love that they have such a strong marriage. I was so so happy when he threw Turner out of his bed. I hope she doesn't come back. What a terrible, cardboard villain. Mrs O'Brien had more dimension to her.

Loved the quadrille, even more than the waltz. It was a lot of fun that everyone was enjoying.

I wish I liked more of the characters. A lot of that depends on the performances. Agnes and Ada were always a pleasure to watch. I ended up liking Aurora. Peggy and her mom were also a plus. Who else...? I think that's it. A shame.

The best part of watching this show is that it has gotten me interested in reading about the period. I think I'll start with reading about the Astors. Any suggestions?

[KarenX]

10 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

The best part of watching this show is that it has gotten me interested in reading about the period. I think I'll start with reading about the Astors. Any suggestions?

I know you mean nonfiction but House of Mirth by Edith Wharton is a good “darker timeline” story for Marian. Lily Bart is an unmarried society belle with no money, aging out of her role, and some decisions to make. It’s a good companion to the show, and it reads almost like a horror story.

This is the last time I will mention it I swear but The Rise of Silas Lapham is another contemporary novel (written in the 1880s about the 1880s) about a darker timeline for a New Rich family with marriageable daughters that lacks the Russells’ confidence (and without Bertha’s drive) and what happens as they make inroads into Boston society. 

[Roseanna]

18 hours ago, Shermie said:

Why would Marian call Raikes “Mr. Raikes” when she was talking to Mrs. Chamberlain? Does he have a first name? Wouldn’t you refer to the guy you’re marrying by his first name? It’s not like she was talking about him in polite society and was expected to adhere to stuffy manners.

Because Mrs Chamberlain didn't use Raikes' first name, Marian naturally did the same (and would have done it even if they were married). 

People followed manners even if they were alone.

[blackwing]

Until I came here and started reading the thread, I did not realise this was the season finale.  I am sad, I thought I read in an earlier thread that there would be 10 episodes, and many HBO series seem to have 10 episode seasons.

I guess I still don't fully understand how Raikes got into society in the first place.  Upthread it was suggested that he looked at Marian as his way to get in.  But I don't recall many (or any) instances in which he needed her and her family name to get him in.  They never seemed to be an official couple, they were people who knew each other from Pennsylvania.  I don't think they attended any society events together, did they?

He got invited to the Schermerhorn box at the music hall on his own, without her assistance, and in fact she didn't even know he was going to be there.  He was a tagalong in Bertha's electricity carriage party because someone she invited wanted him there for her daughter.  And of course he got invited by the Flaglers to their box at the music hall.  None of these entries into society needed help from Marian or her name. 

My biggest question... why him?  Surely there are lots of eligible young men in New York.  How did a nobody from Pennsylvania with no money and no pedigree make it into society so quickly, where he is courting Schermerhorns and Flaglers?  There was so much said in this show about old money vs. new money.  He had little money, or at least he wasn't rolling in it.  Why was it so easy for him to date these society princesses?  He wasn't "old money" so wouldn't these families have found him unacceptable?  Why was it so easy for him to break into society with no money and no pedigree, whereas the whole series has been about how difficult Bertha Russell was finding it?  This makes little sense to me.  

I still don't fully understand why Mrs. Astor completely caved to Bertha.  Bertha says Carrie can't dance unless you come too.  Mrs. Astor says fine.  Bertha says you have to invite all your friends too.  Mrs. Astor does.  Why couldn't she have just said "hey, sorry, I asked them to go, and I told them I was going, but I can't force them."  Also, after the dance, she could have made a big show of leaving right away.  "Thanks beeyotch for letting my daughter dance in your stupid quadrille.  Since you blackmailed me into attending, my part has now been done, so I am leaving, and anyone else who wants to leave, drinks are on me at my place."

This episode was written as a triumph for Bertha and George, but I don't really see it that way.  I see them as both resorting to blackmail to force people into doing what they wanted.  I get that they did what they had to do, but at least characterise it that way, instead of making it seem like they have "won".  I didn't see their power plays and moves as triumphant at all, I think their behaviour was asstastic.  But they don't care.

Of all the men at the ball, why would Gladys automatically have been paired with Oscar?  Just because he was standing there when she walked in after changing?  I would have thought she would more likely have been paired with the guy she was paired with in the quadrille.  Can they give Oscar a better look next season?  The flat hair plastered to his head like it is wet, the doe eyes and the moustache... overall just doesn't seem believable that Gladys had her pick of men to dance with and chose to dance with him for her first dance.

So Arthur Scott thought that Peggy and her son would be shamed because she eloped with her husband?  Was that it, or was there more to it?  It's not like she had the child out of wedlock, what was the big shame?  If Marian and Raikes had eloped, would they both also have been shamed for life?  I hope Peggy comes back to work for Agnes next season.  

I truly don't care about the Fake French Cook and the Bald Stalker... it was funny to watch Fake French Cook but that storyline should have been done an episode earlier instead of in a season finale.

I was surprised that Turner didn't make an appearance.  Is the character done?  I hope she comes back.  

 

[Bliss]

I'm sitting at a table for one... I happen to sorta like Marian. I adore Meryl Streep... and I'm giving her daughter the benefit of doubt or whatever that's called... she has a certain quality that's difficult to describe, because I keep expecting greatness and ... sometimes, it's there. In small doses.

Her reaction to Raikes in his office was exactly what I'd have done - except I'd have included some words that are probably banned here. I loved her almost shouting at him. The prick. (I'd have shoved those blank pages of his loser-letter youknowwhere.)

Her scrunched up face, breaking into tears, upon leaving his office once she saw Peggy? Perfection. Her "dabbing" her eyes after F*cking Asshole talked to her at the ball? More perfection.

I see her interaction with Peggy - or Aunt Ada - those small (but mighty) touches on the arm, the hugs, the eye connection, and the facial expressions as exactly how someone in her position would "be". Women weren't even allowed to vote back then... challenging for me to imagine. I mean, think about it - how have men made our world successful? I won't hold my breath waiting for a response to that... LOL

Does she have a bit of vocal fry? Yes. It annoys me. I want her to have full expression. Her lower tones are fabulous.

She was never in love with the FAL (facking asshole loser), whether she realizes it yet or not, and I'm glad her reputation isn't ruined. Phew. Close call.

More Aunt Agnes, please. And more Peggy's Mom. Those two are dynamite.

[izabella]

43 minutes ago, blackwing said:

So Arthur Scott thought that Peggy and her son would be shamed because she eloped with her husband?  Was that it, or was there more to it?  It's not like she had the child out of wedlock, what was the big shame?  If Marian and Raikes had eloped, would they both also have been shamed for life? 

He's a wealthy, prominent businessman, at the top of black society, and his daughter eloped with a stock boy.  That's the shame he wanted to erase, so she could live a life of wealth and privilege and opportunity, instead of a life of drudgery and being shunned by their society.

[athousandclowns]

On 3/23/2022 at 11:37 AM, Yours Truly said:

My guess is the scandal with the chef may be a bit of foreshadowing about someone not being who they say they are.

I'm thinking a very possible storyline will be the origins of the Russells. They are obviously new money and come from the working class which makes them outcasts in old society. That is the whole premise of the first season. Okey doke. No mysteries there. Or is there? I think Bertha will of course run into snags come season two because she's still going to have to adjust her footing as she goes. There's still more to be done and plenty to "earn" with the old crowd.

I wonder if maybe we don't find out that Bertha or George are a part of the "one drop" rule..???

And on that note someone mentioned the shadow that is Peggy's ex husband. I wonder if her son is mixed. There is a seriously unreasonable aspect to her fathers reaction to her marriage and the child. His dialogue about the situation and the boy was worded in a way that seemed a bit intentional by the writers. hmmmmmmmm.... 

I really don't like the yellow on Marian but the dresses really are lovely. I'm so curious as to why they chose to dress her in that color SO VERY OFTEN. The frequency really stands out to me. It's like, I'm over here thinking "really? another yellow dress? Enough already!" Lol. 

I have to say I do appreciate the pace of the show and I love the deadpan delivery of dialogue. I love that the wit stands on its own and isn't drowned out by overacting or theatrics. I love how it's directed to be intense without too much intensity. It keeps the energy light and the audience is able to focus and catch so much of the nuance that is happening in each scene. Also, as lackluster as it may seem, I don't mind the light thud of some of the storylines, or the decidedly non-grandiose closure of others. I don't want to be in the throws of anxiety and heartbreak when I watch TV shows. I can usually muster the strength for a movie but I don't want beat down after beat down after beat down every week so the way they introduce, tackle then resolve strife and drama works for me. 

I'm happy the Raikes storyline is somewhat over. I hope it stays that way. And I'm happy each occurrence of "scandal or strife" isn't stretched out over weeks and weeks. The Russell strive to be accepted was a season long dilemma but that was okay because that was the overall theme and expected its the minor hiccups and snags and dilemmas that happened along the way but dispensed of in a timely manner that had me relieved. To much gets too messy and frustrating. 

Earlier this morning  I did a search on the clothing / wardrobes on cast and an article mentions the  colors were intentional.   I wanted to see the gray draped dress of Bertha . .   It’s interesting to read about the research they did.
The red and white check on Peggy I thought was odd at the time but they found a similar photo of a black woman during time period age.   Of course she’s so pretty so the picture didn’t look anything like what they created for her. Sorry I’m an idiot or I’d include  the link that I read but forgot how I finally arrived on it.  

[meowmommy]

On 3/21/2022 at 6:30 PM, dmc said:

Ward McAllister's Society as I Have Found It has been reissued on Kindle if you want to read.  I bought the original on Ebay awhile back but its available again digital version for 99 cents.

It's available as Kindle or as an .epub book for free from Project Gutenberg.