S01.E09: Let the Tournament Begin

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, ChlcGal said:

To tell the truth I assumed that when she showed such muted emotions it was for two reasons: she was still in a bit of shock and she really didn't have overwhelming heartbreak because SHE DIDN'T REALLY LOVE HIM.  Never once - not even when they were making their final elopement plans - did she say she loved him.  I think she got all caught up in his enthusiasm and just got carried along.  

I agree: her reaction showed that she didn't love him.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Roseanna
added two words

[Affogato]

20 hours ago, dmc said:

 

I feel like we cannot discuss an episode without mentioning Marion's atrocious pale yellow ball gown that looked made her skin sallow and the red flower that made her look like a deer recently shot.  

 

Ward McAllister's Society as I Have Found It has been reissued on Kindle if you want to read.  I bought the original on Ebay awhile back but its available again digital version for 99 cents.

 

 

I think the dress, in her naive butter yellow, represented her innocence and the flower the metaphorical wound she has taken to the heart. 
 

thanks, I bought the book. (Maybe Amazon should thank you). 

[Sakura12]

So the Raikes think was just as bland as they both are and we were trying to make it more interesting. That was a let down but at least it's over. 

How was Peggy ruining herself she was married to the baby's father. Even Agnes was accepting of that. Because of her father she's now an unmarried mother. 

I thought the ball would be bigger and more extravagant. Like I read the actual Vanderbilt ball was that got Mrs. Astor to attend. This one was kind bland. Although one thing I still like about the Russell's is how supportive George is of his wife by also helping get important people to attend her ball. So if there is any conflict in the marriage in the coming seasons I hope it's not as trivial as an affair with the help. 

Bertha got them to attend one ball, I'm sure she has long way to go to be invited to one of theirs. 

[shipmate]

My hope is that a new love interest (that we haven’t met yet) will be brought in for Marian next season. One that oozes charisma because the other male leads (outside of Mr. Russell) aren’t fitting that bill. We are going to WANT to see Marion with this person to get on board with caring.

[dmc]

21 minutes ago, Affogato said:

I think the dress, in her naive butter yellow, represented her innocence and the flower the metaphorical wound she has taken to the heart. 
 

thanks, I bought the book. (Maybe Amazon should thank you). 

I think you will enjoy it, I am happy they released it again:)

[CarpeFelis]

19 hours ago, Brian Cronin said:

The Raikes thing is fascinating, in that it just sort of petered out. No big drama, no big twist, just "Oh yeah, he realized he could fuck some lady with a LOT of money." It's very strange, but I dunno, maybe it's almost a good thing to mess with expectations? I tend to have stronger opinions on decisions that Fellowes makes, but I am really sort of up in the air on this one. I don't know that I would have preferred a more dramatic twist than Raikes just realizing there were other ladies that could make him a richer guy. Hmm...as I write it, I think I'm okay with it, honestly. It doesn't even necessarily make Raikes out to be a TOTAL scumbag, really. 

90% scumbag, then, since he was too much of a damn coward to show up at Mrs. Chamberlain’s and explain to Marian in person—probably hoping to avoid a scene where she breaks down weeping uncontrollably or, far less likely for mousy Marian, screams at him. He owed her at least that much, rather than leaving her waiting and wondering WTF happened to him! (Which comes down to “Sure I love you, but facing you would be JUST TOO HARD—for ME—so I’ll just leave you hanging for hours and send a letter instead”. What a prize this guy is.) 

And he had a hell of a nerve telling her at the ball that a) he showed up because he figured she wouldn’t be there (coward, coward, COWARD!!!) and b) he did love her. I really wanted to see her slap him then and tell him off. I bet if Agnes or Bertha had been in Marian’s shoes, they would have. If your love can be so easily swayed by money and social standing, it’s not worth having and it’s not love. Marian just dodged a great big bullet.

The real French chef was such a joke. It was obvious he wouldn’t last when he played prima donna and refused to look at the notes Borden left, but being drunk the night of the ball?! WOW.

[NeenerNeener]

I'm rewatching this on a larger tv, and when I'm considerably less sleepy than I was last night.

Mini-Streep actually does cry a few times after Raikes dumps her: in the carriage after she leaves his office, at the ball after he talks to her, and the next morning in her bed. She doesn't do "ugly, sobbing" crying so it's not really obvious, just tears rolling down her cheek.

I've decided I like Cynthia Nixon as an actress again, as long as I don't ever watch her again in And Just Like That. 

[CarpeFelis]

19 hours ago, Brian Cronin said:

I'm not saying that it is convincing, but his theory was that he kept getting tempted by all of these rich folks who wanted him to marry their rich daughters, so he was hoping that if they married quickly, he could avoid temptation, but since they didn't marry quickly enough, it was too late. Again, not saying it makes a ton of sense, but that's the idea. 

That logic reminds me of Judd Nelson’s character in St. Elmo’s Fire who kept insisting that marrying Ally Sheedy’s character would put a stop to his womanizing! Yeah, right, it doesn’t work that way…

[CarpeFelis]

10 hours ago, ahpny said:

Neither Russell blackmailed anyone. Blackmail is a demand for payment in exchange for not revealing a secret (and it may be a crime). Each Russell here merely demanded a quip pro quo, that is, something in exchange for something else. That is not illegal or even immoral, at least here. Nevertheless, it was kind of awesome. Seeing unkind people with power get what's coming to them never gets old.

The "something" offered by each Russell, respectively, to Mrs. Astor and the guy who wanted a loan extension, was set in motion by not by the Russells, but instead by those who wanted something from them. Mrs. Astor "started it" by snubbing Bertha. Betha can invite or disinvite whomever she pleases to her own party. George Russell demanded nothing from the guy who wanted a loan extension until that guy came to Mr. Russell hat in hand. And the gall of that the guy who wanted a loan extension to castigate George Russell as "not a gentlemen." Screw him. George should have responded "As someone who needs access to my money, it is neither your concern nor your place to question whether I might, or might not be, a gentleman."

It wasn’t just quid pro quo (and it is quid, not quip) in George’s case—he threatened to make sure the guy couldn’t get his loan anywhere else.

ETA: By definition, what George did was extortion.

Edited March 22, 2022 by CarpeFelis

[TeenMom69]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

 

I thought the ball would be bigger and more extravagant. Like I read the actual Vanderbilt ball was that got Mrs. Astor to attend. This one was kind bland.

I read about the real ball too and felt this did not live up. But in the show's defense the real Alva spent what is in today's dollars $3 million dollars on this party. 

There were 5 elaborate costumed quadrilles by different young groups and a 2nd floor forest. I wanted to see more of that. I'm sure the show's budget can't compete with that but they did put alot of palm plants in the receiving lobby.

Edited March 22, 2022 by TeenMom69

[ahpny]

35 minutes ago, CarpeFelis said:

By definition, what George did was extortion

You caught my "quip" typo, but I still don't think George's comments rise to a level of extortion, though that line may be blurry. The purpose of extortion is to obtain money or property. George sought neither; he wanted attendance at the ball. That's coercion, but not generally considered extortion.

[Brian Cronin]

7 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

They did this better on Little House on the Prarie when Marie came to visit John Edwards, for goodness sake.

Too funny, I was just reading about how Melissa Sue Anderson hated Radames Pera (John Edwards) so much that it led to that Edwards character assassination on the show. 

[CarpeFelis]

6 minutes ago, ahpny said:

You caught my "quip" typo, but I still don't think George's comments rise to a level of extortion, though that line may be blurry. The purpose of extortion is to obtain money or property. George sought neither; he wanted attendance at the ball. That's coercion, but not generally considered extortion.

I stand corrected, you’re absolutely right.

[yellowjacket]

1 hour ago, shipmate said:

My hope is that a new love interest (that we haven’t met yet) will be brought in for Marian next season. One that oozes charisma because the other male leads (outside of Mr. Russell) aren’t fitting that bill. We are going to WANT to see Marion with this person to get on board with caring.

Right! The smoking hot person who busts into a drawing room on a big horse!!!

I like how they ended things.  Marian couldn't marry Mr. Raikes because ruination wouldn't have been a viable plot line next season - well, unless they sack Jacobson. I like how they're showing Ada to be slyer and smarter than Agnes thinks she is.

(Aside:  I've mentioned that I am more than a little descended from old New York.  I actually had an Aunt Ada in real life, born in NYC in 1900.  She and her husband Harold talked in Locust Valley Lockjaw and were seriously snooty, but otherwise ok.  She was kind of artistic, could paint daintily and was good at needlework.  My Aunt Ada didn't embroider in the dark without glasses though.)

Show:  Kelli O'Hara is stealing the scenes she's in, killing it with sincerity.

I feel like every season is going to feature a woman throwing herself at George Russell as long as he continues to smolder.

PS. Today at work when I was sneaking reads of this thread, the pop up ads were for Tracy Letts' new play - Carrie C***'s hubby (Tonys, Pulitzer).  That's some algorithm!

Edited March 23, 2022 by yellowjacket
Typos!

[Kirsty]

15 hours ago, Brian Cronin said:

Yeah, I think that that is fair. I found an interview with Fellowes about the finale

The explanation of the Raikes story that you quote here from the Julian Fellowes interview is more interesting to read than the plot was to watch. The Marian/Raikes romance was so unappealing that I eventually thought it was deliberate and we were supposed to be rooting against it. We never got Raikes' point of view. I never knew what was going on with him so they failed to convey his story. The relationship was dragged out all season, and the destination turned out to be as dull as the journey. I didn't think that was possible! But... he's still at the office because he changed his mind? That's it?!

So much money is poured into the beautiful sets and costumes. Yes, the ball looked great. But the writing is a disappointment.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Kirsty

[Tango64]

Loved this episode. Wonderful watching Bertha  duel with Ms. Astor, trying so hard to exude confidence when you know she was battling insecurity and doubt. 
and I loved the Cynthia Nixon character, maybe my favorite in terms of both character development and acting:  Take a half day to sleep if you want. 

[chaifan]

24 minutes ago, Kirsty said:

So much money is poured into the beautiful sets and costumes. Yes, the ball looked great. But the writing is a disappointment.

I think this pretty much sums up 4 pages of comments.  Bravo.

Random thoughts:

I am so glad Marian didn't have secret stash of money.  As I posted (way too many times) there is no conceivable way this could have happened.  If Fellowes went there, he would have been aiming for the Gold medal in Plot Twist Gymnastics, and flubbed the landing.

I am total agreement that Peggy getting sacked with a My Baby! plotline is a disservice to the actress and character.  They could have saved this, somewhat, by Mr. Scott revealing that he had found out some horrible thing about Peggy's husband - that he was secretly married to someone else, or had otherwise deceived her in a way that would have ruined her.  But, nah, he just wasn't up to Mr. Scott's standards.  The only possible saving grace to this My Baby! plotline will be more of Audra McDonald in Season 2. 

Aunt Ada/Cynthia Nixon - is it just me, or did Aunt Ada's voice drop an octave or two between Episode 1 and Episode 9?  OK, slight exaggeration, but she was awfully squeaky in the first half of the series.  I thought it was incredibly annoying.  But by this episode her tone was normal.  Always soft spoken, but at least not squeaky.  Someone said earlier Aurora was most improved player, but I think Ada was.  I really didn't care for the character in the beginning, but she really grew as the season went on.  I hope they give her some meat for Season 2. 

Chef Baudin's replacement - I really really really thought Fellowes was just going to totally crib from the DA movie and have the other workers lock the replacement chef in his room, thus having to call Baudin back.  The whole Baudin thing served almost no purpose, but was funny, so I'm ok with it.  I do want to find out what the actor's real real voice is like, because the "Middle West" accent sounded horrible. 

I really hate when fictional shows toss in "real" characters, like the Astors, when it is unnecessary to do so.  This show could have easily been built around 100% fictional characters.  Turn "Astor" into "Aschers" or whatever.  No one would have cared.  I just don't like seeing real people (even if they're long dead) have their history rewritten just to make someone else money. 

I hated the dress Gladys was wearing before the quadrille, but loved her "coming out" dress that she put on later.  I wish Agnes had donned more jewels, and a big honkin' tiara.  When Mrs. Astor showed up in the big tiara, I expected Bertha to go upstairs and put on a bigger one.

I would love it if in Season 2 they did make Lina and Bertha friends.  I think hanging out with the two of them would be a hoot.  I hope they find a better purpose/plot line for Mrs. Chamberlain. 

I loved that they ended with the nods between Church and Bannister.  I want them to be buddies in Season 2, but still keeping up the pretense of hating each other when others are around. 

[nara]

22 hours ago, Brian Cronin said:

What's everyone's take on this thing? Where Fellowes just takes actual events from history and has them happen to characters on the show. I am unsure of whether I think it's clever or kind of half-assed. 

I hope he diverges a little more from the real-life Vanderbilts. I suspect that, rather than a British aristocrat, Gladys will be forced to marry the descendant of presidents Adams. 

22 hours ago, Jordan Baker said:

After all these episodes, I still haven't warmed to Bertha. Her moment of triumph didn't change that.

The ball was well-staged, though. Many of the gowns were beautiful, and I vote for Agnes as the loveliest surprise. It was nice to see her a bit more done up.

I felt bad for Bertha when she was snubbed and all that food went to waste, but I really want her to get her comeuppance—though I know she won’t. She’s just too grasping for my taste and I wish she would show a little more subtlety.

In fact, the only two characters for whom I feel any real empathy are Agnes and Gladys. I really feel that in spite of her harsh words, Agnes only has Ada and Marian’s interests at heart. 
 

I was seriously pissed when George referred to Bertha as the belle of the ball…at his own daughter’s coming out ball! Don’t get me wrong—Bertha was a knockout, but still! Give Gladys ONE NIGHT for god’s sake!

I am tired of George and Bertha coercing everyone. I want that to backfire. Unfortunately, like Consuelo Vanderbilt, only Gladys will suffer for their machinations.

21 hours ago, AZChristian said:

I must officially admit that I was totally wrong about the Raikes story line.  He wasn't trying to steal Marian's money (apparently, there really was none).  He's just an asshole.

I thought your storyline was better than what we got…

I don’t hate Marian or the actress like everyone else does and I don’t think her costumes are so unflattering. I do think they should have done more to explain why she is so naïve. More mentions of her grief fo let her father or mentioning that she’s 18 years old or something! we did get a sense of her innocence when her luggage was stolen, but she should have picked up some sense.
 

I hate that Mrs Chamberlain encouraged the relationship with Raikes, but perhaps she wanted a fellow outcast. Peggy, however, should have known better. The Raikes situation would have made more sense if there was a secret fortune or if Raikes was trying to use naive Marian with no men to protect her for sex

[Brn2bwild]

Did we ever get a resolution to the subplot re who wrote the letter to Agnes about Bannister?  We saw the two butlers nod at each other at the end, but was that a sign of respect or muted hostility?

[BabyBella94]

I hope they don't bring any new love interest for Marian (only bc I like Larry and her together lol) and also because this show has enough characters as it is and they can barely focus on their storylines. 

[Atlanta]

12 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

Did we ever get a resolution to the subplot re who wrote the letter to Agnes about Bannister?  We saw the two butlers nod at each other at the end, but was that a sign of respect or muted hostility?

It seemed like respect. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Brian Cronin said:

Too funny, I was just reading about how Melissa Sue Anderson hated Radames Pera (John Edwards) so much that it led to that Edwards character assassination on the show. 

Wow. I get the impression Melissa Sue Anderson did not like many people on that show and the feeling was mutual...?

[BabyBella94]

1 hour ago, nara said:

I hate that Mrs Chamberlain encouraged the relationship with Raikes, but perhaps she wanted a fellow outcast. Peggy, however, should have known better. The Raikes situation would have made more sense if there was a secret fortune or if Raikes was trying to use naive Marian with no men to protect her for sex

I think I'm one of the few people who dislikes/doesn't care for Mrs. Chamberlain.

 

[phoenics]

On 3/21/2022 at 10:41 PM, sistermagpie said:

Exactly. I get that he's acting like a guy who cares about society but you'd think a former slave would have a little too much real life experience to casually rehome somebody's baby.

As a former slave, maybe he just didn’t want to be relegated to the dustbins of society after escaping slavery. It’s still unforgivable what he did but maybe that was his reasoning after clawing his way to the top of the black society heap. 

[phoenics]

On 3/21/2022 at 10:51 PM, Enigma X said:

The whole Raikes thing wasn't even interesting. Fellowes didn't even make him sneaky, but he dumped Marion in the most boring fashion. And the dialog is just not good. Marion said she believed she loved him. I am sorry, but I am not mad at the character for that but the writer.

I think the whole point of this storyline with Raikes was to show Marian that Agnes was right about him. She’s been right on everything. So when Marian and Larry fall for one another, that will be a bigger conflict for Marian, who now won’t trust her own mind on Larry because she knows Agnes won’t approve?

[phoenics]

20 hours ago, rollacoaster said:

Peggy's father gave me Mister from The Color Purple vibes.

I absolutely can see him doing what he did to Peggy. He rose from being enslaved to a life of accomplishment and wealth. Imagine that ascent! Imagine the drive that took! I can compare him to Mr. Russell in some ways, though on a smaller scale. What Mr. Scott built was more impressive, IMO, as he started with literally nothing and managed to achieve so much in a racist society.  

I think we'd like to belive that Mr. Scott would be more noble and compassionate somehow, having experienced life as enslaved. Not necessarily. I can imagine he, like George Russell, had to develop a hard shell as he built his wealth. And, like George Russell, he used his wealth and power to ruthlessly separate his daughter from a man deemed unworthy. He took on the values of the dominant culture of the time. As a person of wealth, he felt entitled to exercise control over the lives of his daughter and ANY lower status person, in this case Peggy's husband. You'd think he'd have some compassion or feel some kinship with Peggy's young man who perhaps had dreams of working his way up. Nope. Like Bertha, Mr. Scott pulls up the ladder and slams the door. 

I think Mr. Scott took the actions he did to protect the family reputation, and out of a misguided love for Peggy. Unfortunately, despite being a once powerless person, he chose to abuse his power and deprive Peggy of her choices.

Wish I’d seen this before responding. It’s what I was thinking and so well said. Yes you’d think him being a slave and seeing babies ripped away and family sold away would mean he’d never do that - but I can see how going from rags to riches would make him desperate to hold onto that wealth and status. 

[buttersister]

Can I say that I was disappointed not to see any of the highly rated food that the chef from the Middle West cooked up?

[sistermagpie]

26 minutes ago, phoenics said:

I think the whole point of this storyline with Raikes was to show Marian that Agnes was right about him. She’s been right on everything. So when Marian and Larry fall for one another, that will be a bigger conflict for Marian, who now won’t trust her own mind on Larry because she knows Agnes won’t approve?

Well, Agnes was right in some ways but she didn't really nail the guy. He wasn't an adventurer. He wasn't after Marian for that reason. He was a weak character who only became an adventurer because his life made it so easy to marry rich and so hard to turn it down. Agnes was giving him too much credit for effort calling him an adventurer.

Edited March 23, 2022 by sistermagpie

[Yeah No]

This is what the drunk French chef reminded me of:

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxDqutvLSa1xtsOAREHS6QHtlxhzOuCUl

[Roseanna]

14 hours ago, dmc said:

I mean Marian could have easily been ruined by Raikes if anyone had found out.  He will pretty cavalier with her reputation and her heart.  I think she's better off because to me weak is the worst thing anyone can be.  Bertha and I agree on that.  

Marian can't ruin Raikes without ruining her own reputation: they had secret meeting, even in the scandalous Mrs C:n house, and they planned to elope. All this would do more harm to her than him.

However, there is one way: Marian could send an anonymous letter to the woman  Raikes is now pursuing in which she tells, not about herself, but that he only courts her for her money. But if she had fallen for him, she will not believe it.

12 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

RAikes makes perfect sense to me on paper, but as portrayed it just didn't work at all imo. I never saw a guy who was fooling himself and slowly falling more in love with society than his girlfriend, particularly because she was becoming his girlfriend as he was falling in love with society. (As Marian herself helpfully points out this is how it was meant to be going.) The person who leaves behind their true love and goes to the big city and changes is very familiar and real, but here they just made Raikes look bizarre. They did this better on Little House on the Prarie when Marie came to visit John Edwards, for goodness sake.

 

5 hours ago, Kirsty said:

We never got Raikes' point of view. I never knew what was going on with him so they failed to convey his story.

Yes! The story would have been more interesting if it had been described from Raikes's POV. 

Maybe Oscar's pursuit of Gladys could become interesting? 

[Cheezwiz]

On 3/21/2022 at 7:14 PM, dmc said:

no point whatsoever and Marion has to end up with Larry...there are no more male characters

Aha! But there ARE. Remember Mrs. Chamberlain's unseen son? If he's unmarried, I foresee a visit from him,  and possibly a love triangle for Marian next season.

I've been lukewarm on this show, but the last two episodes have been visual delights. I really REALLY didn't want the ball to end, it was so gorgeous. 

I hope Oscar's plan to get his hooks into Gladys is thwarted, but  I fear that  even if Oscar fails, her mother will pawn her off to a titled Brit, and she will wind up in a miserable union like Consuelo Vanderbilt. Taissa Farmiga even looks a bit like Consuelo Vanderbilt!

Poor Peggy. I hope she locates her little boy.

[Cheezwiz]

On 3/21/2022 at 7:59 PM, SnazzyDaisy said:

Inspiration for Marian’s dress? 🤔

Oooh, you've just inspired me to go back and look up his work. I've never been big on portrait art, but Sargent was in a magical league all his own, and it's a way to continue the ball-gown eye-candy I was enjoying this episode!

[kristen111]

10 hours ago, izabella said:

This has been bothering me, too.  There was that initial introduction to Oskar's boyfriend, but other than that, there haven't been any others that Agnes tried to introduce her to.  I would have expected Agnes and Ada to push him to introduce more of his single friends to Marian.  Not to mention, even if Agnes and Ada don't get out much, Aurora is right there!  I'm sure she'd be happy to take Marian around everywhere with her and introduce her to eligible young men.

I have also been disappointed that the only ball we've seen was in this episode.  Why didn't Mrs. Astor have a ball or Mrs. Fane or anyone else?  Marian could have at least met some other young men, even if she was still stuck on Raikes.  And they could have shown Bertha being excluded and fuming about it, as an example of why it mattered to her to be "in" with the Old Money people.

I’m surprised also that there wasn’t anything going on in Agnes’s house too.  All they did was gossip and sew in the dark. No dinner parties that I can recall ..nothing.  And why after all these years didn’t they associate with Mrs. Chamberlain.  How much could they shun her?  Society was too snobbish.  What a shame and waste of life for that woman.

 

[Pestilentia]

10 hours ago, yellowjacket said:

I feel like every season is going to feature a woman throwing herself at George Russell as long as he continues to smolder.

Well, I don't see the hotness in George that some of the rest of y'all are seeing. In fact IMO there is not one hot man on this entire show. Larry is as bland as Wonder Bread, Oscar looks like a live action Snidely Whiplash, Raikes is no bueno, and while John Adams is passable I don't see him being featured in any storylines aside from messing with Oscar. Just think we need some real man candy on this show- men with charm and charisma.

7 hours ago, phoenics said:

I get that he's acting like a guy who cares about society but you'd think a former slave would have a little too much real life experience to casually rehome somebody's baby.

Here's what occurred to me, and forgive me if this is an old white lady talking out of her ass, but- maybe, just maybe.

Maybe after having seen such suffering and families torn apart with zero regard for emotion or love- maybe after a lifetime of seeing that repeatedly one can become desensitized to the wrenching apart of a family. Maybe he had seen it so many times- saw mothers and babies wrenched apart so often- yet recover and go on to have more babies and a good life. Maybe he thought yeah, it's going to hurt her but she'll get over it and go on to have a successful life, a worthy husband, and more babies. Life was cheap, women lost babies all the time and got over it.  The end justifies the means.

I'm not excusing his actions- they are inexcusable. But maybe he thought he was justified in his actions and used the above rationalization to convince himself that he was doing it for Peggy's own good. He had to have had some thought process going on- he's not a stupid man. He was clearly very wrong but I think he thinks he did it for the right reasons. How Peggy and Mrs. Scott are going to deal with him going forward is more interesting to me than the existence of a baby, which as someone mentioned upthread hardly ever makes a show better. Especially a period piece. Maybe a child could serve as an excuse to hire yet another nanny, but we have enough characters on this show so IMO we don't need more. We just need the ones we already have to do something interesting.   

I'd like to see Aunt Agnes describe her purpose in living.  A discussion between Agnes and Ada about their lives, what they do all day, what purpose they serve. And not Agnes' standard issue quips as a reply, but just one good, real conversation that puts Baranski to better use. IMO she is wasted so far and needs something to dig into- IMO some navel gazing on her end would be a good peek behind the curtains of her life. Has she any aspirations? Pet causes? Any interests at all? I'd like Aunt Agnes to be better fleshed out.

[NeenerNeener]

It's always possible that John Adams will court Marian next season. We know he's Oscar's boyfriend, but she doesn't. This way he gets to stay close to his boo. We'll all be rooting for Larry, though.

[Lassus]

17 hours ago, AntFTW said:

I'm thinking if they bring Turner back

I would like to take a moment to speak out against Turner as a character.  The scripting for her was really really telegraphed and uninteresting.

[Affogato]

19 hours ago, AntFTW said:

That would be great! I'm thinking if they bring Turner back, it will be in a position that would make George accessible to her.

Or Bertha. Turner could come back, pregnant, and claim it was George….or someone could have seen her leaving George’s room and it could get back to Bertha. Or she could simply try to blackmail George. 
 

the reasn given for those Vanderbilts divorce was infidelity and the man took the blame, although it isn’t clear to me from the story that he was necessarily the one who was unfaithful. I dob’t think a man’s unfaithfulness was that big a deal, if discreet. 

[Pop Tart]

13 hours ago, yellowjacket said:

I feel like every season is going to feature a woman throwing herself at George Russell as long as he continues to smolder.

I love George and Bertha as a couple and certainly don't want them broken up or for him to cheat, etc. etc. But boy his chemistry with all the women? Each time he interacts with someone I'm thinking oooh what if that turned into something. George and Aurora, George and Mrs. Chamberlain, George and Aunt Agnes (there was the moment when she crashed the lunch and he invited her to stay). 

And to reiterate I do not want George to cheat. But I would love it if, when Mrs. Chamberlain's son comes to town, he's every bit as charismatic. 

In thinking about it the only other guy on the show who interests me, and I'm likely at a table for one on this, is Oscar. He's not the most handsome, but he's sarcastic and witty and confident, so I like that. I don't like his plan for Gladys, but I do get that this is a choice a man in his position at that time would make.

I think I could like Aurora's husband but we've had so little of him, who knows.

[Enigma X]

2 hours ago, Pestilentia said:

Well, I don't see the hotness in George that some of the rest of y'all are seeing. In fact IMO there is not one hot man on this entire show. Larry is as bland as Wonder Bread, Oscar looks like a live action Snidely Whiplash, Raikes is no bueno, and while John Adams is passable I don't see him being featured in any storylines aside from messing with Oscar. Just think we need some real man candy on this show- men with charm and charisma.

I am the first to say different strokes, but I agree with everything (George is downright f'ugly) but find Larry to be extraordinarily handsome.  More of him for me in my dreams.

[dmc]

11 hours ago, BabyBella94 said:

I hate that Mrs Chamberlain encouraged the relationship with Raikes, but perhaps she wanted a fellow outcast. Peggy, however, should have known better. The Raikes situation would have made more sense if there was a secret fortune or if Raikes was trying to use naive Marian with no men to protect her for sex

Mrs. Chamberlain encouraged the relationship because the man she risked it all for legitimately loved her.  She didn’t know Marian’s guy was a coward wimpy loser. She trusted Marian’s judgment. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by dmc

[larapu2000]

11 hours ago, BabyBella94 said:

I think I'm one of the few people who dislikes/doesn't care for Mrs. Chamberlain.

 

I agree.  She's a lover and supporter of great art and I want her to be an interesting, worldly woman and instead she's just kind of milquetoast.

14 minutes ago, Pop Tart said:

In thinking about it the only other guy on the show who interests me, and I'm likely at a table for one on this, is Oscar. He's not the most handsome, but he's sarcastic and witty and confident, so I like that. I don't like his plan for Gladys, but I do get that this is a choice a man in his position at that time would make.

I'll sit at your table.  Oscar and George are the only 2 male characters that seem fully fleshed out on the show.  Maybe they're given meatier scenes or more development/dialogue to establish them, but I am on board with what you said.  Even if I don't want him to marry Gladys, I certainly enjoy when he shows up on screen.  At least I know I won't be bored.

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, kristen111 said:

I’m surprised also that there wasn’t anything going on in Agnes’s house too.  All they did was gossip and sew in the dark. No dinner parties that I can recall ..nothing.  And why after all these years didn’t they associate with Mrs. Chamberlain.  How much could they shun her?  Society was too snobbish.  What a shame and waste of life for that woman.

 

How can anybody even tell that Agnes is snubbing them? She barely leaves the house anyway.

26 minutes ago, dmc said:

Mrs. Chamberlain encouraged the relationship because the man she risked it all for legitimately loved her.  She didn’t know Marian’s guy was a coward wimpy loser. She trusted Marian’s judgment. 

Chills go down the spine at the very thought of someone trusting Marian's judgment!

[Nedsdag]

On 3/22/2022 at 6:28 AM, NeenerNeener said:

 

I'm trying to imagine Amanda Peet as Bertha and I just can't.  I'm glad they recast the role. 

 

I'm inviting you to my personal ball. Amanda Peet has done some decent work; however, she couldn't fill Bertha's bustle the way Carrie C*** has. CC has a presence about her that AP lacks. I don't see the stone cold in her. All I see are her eyes and that's not enough to carry the role.

The pandemic pause was the best thing to happen to the show. Also, it was probably the worst thing because they could've used another episode to really tie up the loose end.

[dmc]

37 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

How can anybody even tell that Agnes is snubbing them? She barely leaves the house anyway.

Chills go down the spine at the very thought of someone trusting Marian's judgment!

As they should lol.  😂😂😂

[chaifan]

I personally would like to see any doubt of George's fidelity to Bertha put to rest.  I'd like to have either Turner back for one scene, or another woman come on to him, and he downright refuses the advances, and it's all seen by Bertha.  I just think George either having an affair or being accused of having one is a plot we've all seen sooooo many times before, and it's not necessary here.  I'd rather have George's plots revolve around his business, or his relationship with his family (in a positive way).  I'd like to see more of George and Gladys together, to build upon the few scenes we've already had. 

And they need to give the women some plot lines that don't revolve around marriage (or lost babies), household duties or parties.  Can Ada and Marian get more involved with Clara Barton and the Red Cross, or maybe in the early suffragette movement?  Could Gladys insist on going to college, or learn about George's business? 

 

 

[izabella]

1 minute ago, chaifan said:

Could Gladys insist on going to college, or learn about George's business? 

I don't think women did business back then.   So that would be a big no.  I'm not sure about college.  I know they had a lot of women's colleges open in the mid to late 1800's.  However, Gladys has shown zero interest in anything but being out so she can go to parties, so I'm expecting nothing from her except to be a thorn in her mother's side as Bertha coerces her into marrying whomever Bertha wants Gladys is to marry.

[DoubleUTeeEff]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

How can anybody even tell that Agnes is snubbing them? She barely leaves the house anyway.

She writes them notes "without a hint of warmth."

[chaifan]

13 minutes ago, izabella said:

I don't think women did business back then.   So that would be a big no.  I'm not sure about college. 

Yeah, I know, but I really wish they'd give Gladys a story line other than "let's marry off Gladys to the highest bidder". 

This is my main criticism with GA vs. Downton.  The women in DA were varied.  Yes, there were those who did nothing but get dressed (multiple times a day) and visit people.  But the show gave most of the upper class women greater purpose than that - Mary helping run the estate, Edith and her writing/editing, Isobel and her hospital work, etc.  This is sorely lacking in GA.  Peggy was the only character with a job/interests outside the home, and now they're going to put her on the "I have to find my baby!" plot instead. 

I think this all worked for Season 1, as it was setting up the social structure.  But if they don't give these characters anything to do in Season 2 it will be soooo boring.  So I wouldn't mind if they broke with tradition a bit and gave Gladys a greater purpose.

[iMonrey]

So what would have happened if Aurora hadn't gone to Mrs. Chamberlain's to tell Marian she saw Raikes canoodling with another girl? Would Marian just have continued to sit there forever? Raikes was already several hours late by that time. In the end Aurora didn't really accomplish much because Raikes never intended to show up and go through with the marriage. She only hastened Marian to go look for him. Which, by the say, shouldn't have required any prompting by then. 

I guess Marian should be grateful because if she'd sat there a minute longer Larry would have had time to give her letters to her aunts.

[Jodithgrace]

Quote

Was that weirdly placed scarlet tulle in the middle of Marian's gown supposed to represent Raikes metaphorically stabbing her in the heart?

Well, considering that they named a character Raikes, and then had him turn out to be a rake, I don’t believe that subtlety in metaphor was what they were going for. 
 

I am doing a presentation on Edith Wharton on Monday for this continuing education class I am involved in. In my research I found out this delightful tidbit. Edith Wharton’s family, The Joneses of New York, were supposedly the Joneses with whom everybody wanted to keep up.  Thus the origin of the phrase. It would have been fun for me to have seen Edith Jones, as her family was mentioned once. 
 

I did enjoy the series, though sometimes I found the costumes to be extremely ugly, with unflattering colors, especially Marian’s. She had one dress I liked, a yellow suit which she wore a couple of times, but most of the time the costume designers did her no favors. 
 

The Statue of Liberty arm didn’t look large enough to me. I had read that people climbed in it to the torch, as they did when the statue was put in NY Harbor. You can’t do that anymore, but it was still like that when I was a child. But that arm didn’t look big enough for people to go inside.