S01.E09: Let the Tournament Begin

[Ms Blue Jay]

It's so funny to me that this show expects me to care so much that Marian was with Brunette Guy #1 and now is suddenly with Brunette Guy #2 that looks Exactly like Brunette Guy #1 and who I've been mixing up with this entire season.  Anyway.  

When Carrie C*** had her hair down I was like Dammmmmmmmn.  She looked so pretty.

I don't always know what the hell is going on in this show, but I'll really miss it in the interim.  This was one of my favourite shows this year.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Ms Blue Jay

[ZeeEnnui]

1 hour ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

Marion is truly dumber than a box of rocks. She claimed this episode that Raikes didn't care about "society," um say what now? Have you not been paying attention this entire season Marion? She's seen him at the opera flirting with some chick, knew he went to the Edison lighting with some date, and just generally knew he was having the time of his life in society. What a dolt. She is going to make some man very happy because he'll be able to cheat on her left and right and she won't even notice.

I don't understand Raikes motives at all. I think we are supposed to believe that he really loves her but loves money more. OK. Still, why push for marriage so quickly? Excuse my crudeness but did he just want to get his dick wet? He tried to get into her hotel room and when that didn't work he goes for marriage knowing that's the only way to get her into bed? And why her? He's been hanging out with a bunch of rich eligible women, what was so compelling about Marion that made him still want her so bad even without money? Oh, I guess we're back to my first point. Fair enough.

Gurrrlllll...Raikes has been scaling the society ladder like he's King Kong on the Empire State Building. Buy yourself a clue along with some gloves from Bloomingdales. 

Marion is such a dipshit. What is that I don't want to part enemy's bs? Like, Raikes just did her dirty -- as every character and extra on the street was basically telling her all season -- but she doesn't like bitter?!?! Marion is the worst kind of vanilla. She's French Vanilla (yuck). An old money adjacent woman bent on wreaking social havoc and revenge on a lawyer with all the charisma of a used sponge...I'd watch that show. Too bad we're stuck with the beneficiary of nepotism as our dead-eyed lead. 

Zee jig is up for Bates. I mean, Baudin. Sorry, Bordin. Fellowes has a type. 

Marion: Portrait of a Moron in Purple. 

Aurora Fane is the stealth MVP of the season. I hope we get more of her in season 2. 

The hair department really did Jeanne Tripplehorn dirty. No one deserves to be onscreen with uneven bang trauma. 

I guess one of those chicken feathers from last week got stuck all the way up Bertha's ass because she was really insufferable this week (which is saying something). I struggle here because I love me some Carrie C***, but I really, really want to see Bertha bitch slapped a little. Mrs. Astor is a legendary historical figure, and it's kind of ridiculous that she wouldn't score a total knockout against Bertha.

BOOOOOOOOOOO. I hate this daytime soap opera of a storyline for Peggy. 

Not only do I want to see Agnes and Bertha become sniping frenemies next season but I want to see more of Agnes and Oscar. I think this is the first time where I was like, their relationship could add some much needed spark to the Van Rijin house. Make it happen, show. 

What I don't need to see next season. Any of the downstairs plot. This season proved that there is too many characters for the writers room to handle. The downstairs worked on Downton because we had the Crawley servants to invest in. Here you've got two households plus Peggy's family. I just can't bring myself to give a f***. Time to cull that call sheet. 

Edited March 22, 2022 by ZeeEnnui

[BellyLaughter]

Well Raikes turned out to be every bit the limp fish I thought he would be....thankfully Marion has observant friends...

[Kleav]

35 minutes ago, ZeeEnnui said:

Aurora Fane is the stealth MVP of the season.

Absolutely! She started out as sort of a filler character and became one of the most quietly interesting.

(And please, people, it's spelled 'Marian.')

[buckboard]

I get that Raikes came to the realization he had better prospects than Marian and that he didn't want to marry her.

What I don't get is why he kept pursuing her and even proposed they elope, just days before they were to go away.  He clearly came to the realization the night before that he didn't want to go through with the marriage, but  he didn't have the balls to tell Marian in person that he had changed his mind.

And poor, feckless Marian didn't have the backbone to tell him off when she saw him at the ball.    

[rollacoaster]

Peggy's father gave me Mister from The Color Purple vibes.

I absolutely can see him doing what he did to Peggy. He rose from being enslaved to a life of accomplishment and wealth. Imagine that ascent! Imagine the drive that took! I can compare him to Mr. Russell in some ways, though on a smaller scale. What Mr. Scott built was more impressive, IMO, as he started with literally nothing and managed to achieve so much in a racist society.  

I think we'd like to belive that Mr. Scott would be more noble and compassionate somehow, having experienced life as enslaved. Not necessarily. I can imagine he, like George Russell, had to develop a hard shell as he built his wealth. And, like George Russell, he used his wealth and power to ruthlessly separate his daughter from a man deemed unworthy. He took on the values of the dominant culture of the time. As a person of wealth, he felt entitled to exercise control over the lives of his daughter and ANY lower status person, in this case Peggy's husband. You'd think he'd have some compassion or feel some kinship with Peggy's young man who perhaps had dreams of working his way up. Nope. Like Bertha, Mr. Scott pulls up the ladder and slams the door. 

I think Mr. Scott took the actions he did to protect the family reputation, and out of a misguided love for Peggy. Unfortunately, despite being a once powerless person, he chose to abuse his power and deprive Peggy of her choices.

[bybrandy]

I just don't get Peggy's dad.  I mean yes he didn't like the guy his daughter eloped with.  But if he's so ready to dispatch people why not let Peggy think she's won that round and murder the guy then he can set up his grandson to inherit everything since Peggy doesn't want it but isn't morally opposed to it.  And yes I am suggesting here that part of Peggy's father's plot is to murder the husband he doesn't like,, but I find that less reprehensible than telling your child her baby died.

Instead sure lets sell the kid out of the family, that makes sense for a former slave.  

I like Bertha. 

I thought the point of the French/not French chef was that Bertha managed to have a pretty big triumph with the party but she's been bested by her staff.   

I want to care about any part of the Raikes/Marian storyline but I never bought that he was in love with her, or that she was in love with him and while I'm glad she's not saddled with a guy who isn't worthy of anybody, I genuinely don't see how either of these characters get more interesting, and I guess I could maybe see how Marian gets more interesting if she wakes up married to a guy she suddenly realizes is the now incredibly disappointed social climber we all suspected he was.  

Edited March 22, 2022 by bybrandy

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, eejm said:

I get Peggy’s father being pissed about her eloping.  I understand him being conscious of the family’s place in society at that time.  But to break up his daughter’s marriage, lie to her, and take away her baby?  Doesn’t that seem like just a bit of an overreaction?  Hope the his wife and daughter shutting him out was worth it.

 

4 hours ago, Popples said:

I'm ready to fight Peggy's dad. He was just telling about how his own uncle got sold away and he did the same to his grandson! So coldhearted.

 

4 hours ago, AntFTW said:

People are complicated but I can't help but think that as a former slave, he wouldn't rip a child from their mother, especially his own daughter and grandchild.

I would go one step further and say I understand him breaking up the marriage, but taking away the baby...

 

4 hours ago, RachelKM said:

Poor Peggy.  Jesus.  I kind of thought it might go this way.  But holy Hell, Mr. Scott.  There ain't no coming back from that.  Yay, Mrs. Scott, though! Help your daughter and go find you grandson! Also, yay anything Audra McDonald. 

 

3 hours ago, peridot said:

Peggy's father is such an evil asshole.  He was completely unrepentant about deceiving Peggy in such a way.  I don't see how his marriage would recover from something like that.

 

12 minutes ago, rollacoaster said:

Peggy's father gave me Mister from The Color Purple vibes.

I absolutely can see him doing what he did to Peggy. He rose from being enslaved to a life of accomplishment and wealth. Imagine that ascent! Imagine the drive that took! I can compare him to Mr. Russell in some ways, though on a smaller scale. What Mr. Scott built was more impressive, IMO, as he started with literally nothing and managed to achieve so much in a racist society.  

I think we'd like to belive that Mr. Scott would be more noble and compassionate somehow, having experienced life as enslaved. Not necessarily. I can imagine he, like George Russell, had to develop a hard shell as he built his wealth. And, like George Russell, he used his wealth and power to ruthlessly separate his daughter from a man deemed unworthy. He took on the values of the dominant culture of the time. As a person of wealth, he felt entitled to exercise control over the lives of his daughter and ANY lower status person, in this case Peggy's husband. You'd think he'd have some compassion or feel some kinship with Peggy's young man who perhaps had dreams of working his way up. Nope. Like Bertha, Mr. Scott pulls up the ladder and slams the door. 

I think Mr. Scott took the actions he did to protect the family reputation, and out of a misguided love for Peggy. Unfortunately, despite being a once powerless person, he chose to abuse his power and deprive Peggy of her choices.

 

9 minutes ago, bybrandy said:

I just don't get Peggy's dad.  I mean yes he didn't like the guy his daughter eloped with.  But if he's so ready to dispatch people why not let Peggy think she's won that round and murder the guy then he can set up his grandson to inherit everything since Peggy doesn't want it but isn't morally opposed to it.  And yes I am suggesting here that part of Peggy's father's plot is to murder the husband he doesn't like,, but I find that less reprehensible than telling your child her baby died.

Instead sure lets sell the kid out of the family, that makes sense for a former slave.  

I agree with Rollacoaster.

Under the circumstances, Peggy's father action is quite understandable. He has become from a former slave to a wealthy and respected man in his community. So naturally he wants a better life for his daughter - of course better in the way he understands it. But on the basis what we have learned about the man with whom Peggy eloped he wasn't worth to waste her youth and throw her talents away.

Actually, Peggy's father is just like Bertha! Watching Gladys dancing in the ball, she would have lost all the joys of youth if her mother had prevented her to marry the first man who she became interested in.

As for Peggy, I hope that when she realizes when she meets his son that he is better off with the care of his foster parents who are the only parents he had ever known. Sometimes the greatest love a mother can show is to give up her child.

Peggy had such a good plot line as as a writer and journalist as well as a modern women (unlike Marian). Why did Fellowes create this sentimental rubbish to her?

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, dmc said:

Well we all knew Raikes wouldn't marry Marion.  

I cannot believe this plot lasted for the entire season and was ill conceived and unconvincing from the start.  First of all, Raikes is jelly fish.  He's literally an shapeless inanimate object that is not even remotely transfixing.  So its difficult to believe a woman who has recently lost her father and moved to a new city to live with virtual strangers would immediately get wrapped up in anything with a guy that is so blah.  

The only convincing thing about this relationship is that a man would whole heartedly pursue a woman enough to move his practice to another state and then bail.  I feel that men absolutely do this.  Dive into the deep end and then realize they cannot swim.  

 

5 hours ago, Straycat80 said:

That was one hell of a ball to get over the next day, looked like mid morning. The ballroom dancing was very elegant. 
what was the point of Raikes and Marian? Why did he ask her to elope knowing she had no money and that is what he was after in the first place. That was a dumb storyline. 
I guess we’ll have to see if Marian ends up with Larry. And I hope Gladys doesn’t end up with Oscar. Hopefully Bertha will be careful, like investigating Oscar first, before she lets him or any guy marry Gladys.

 

4 hours ago, chitowngirl said:

I believe the point of Raikes perusing Marion was to get an “in” to Society. He was more successful than he imagined and is now gunning for wealth too.

 

4 hours ago, Brian Cronin said:

The Raikes thing is fascinating, in that it just sort of petered out. No big drama, no big twist, just "Oh yeah, he realized he could fuck some lady with a LOT of money." It's very strange, but I dunno, maybe it's almost a good thing to mess with expectations? I tend to have stronger opinions on decisions that Fellowes makes, but I am really sort of up in the air on this one. I don't know that I would have preferred a more dramatic twist than Raikes just realizing there were other ladies that could make him a richer guy. Hmm...as I write it, I think I'm okay with it, honestly. It doesn't even necessarily make Raikes out to be a TOTAL scumbag, really. 

 

4 hours ago, RachelKM said:

Soooo... Marian and Raikes.... er... That was much ado about literally nothing.  Raikes ,as I suspected since his oh so romantic "we must marry now or one of us might get distracted" speech, was just feckless and an idiot. I mean, good on Fellowes I guess for not trying to create an ninth inning explanation.  It really was as dumb, poorly thought out, and immature as it seemed.   I annoyed that Marian got away with being a total idiot and willfully blind in the face of multiple warnings and red flags with ZERO consequences.

Whatever.  At least it's over.

Marian showed the most chemistry and life in a scene with Raikes in his office breaking up with him.  She was back to bland at the ball.  But that one scene was decent. She still doesn't deserve Ada or Aurora in her corner.  They're both too good for her.

 

4 hours ago, Enigma X said:

The whole Raikes thing wasn't even interesting. Fellowes didn't even make him sneaky, but he dumped Marion in the most boring fashion. And the dialog is just not good. Marion said she believed she loved him. I am sorry, but I am not mad at the character for that but the writer. 

 

4 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

It does feel like the stakes between Marian and Rakes weren't particularly high, and therefore, they weren't a compelling couple. Ironically, the most interesting they were was at the end, when Marian realized he was using her and confronted him.

 

4 hours ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

Marion is truly dumber than a box of rocks. She claimed this episode that Raikes didn't care about "society," um say what now? Have you not been paying attention this entire season Marion? She's seen him at the opera flirting with some chick, knew he went to the Edison lighting with some date, and just generally knew he was having the time of his life in society. What a dolt. She is going to make some man very happy because he'll be able to cheat on her left and right and she won't even notice.

I don't understand Raikes motives at all. I think we are supposed to believe that he really loves her but loves money more. OK. Still, why push for marriage so quickly? Excuse my crudeness but did he just want to get his dick wet? He tried to get into her hotel room and when that didn't work he goes for marriage knowing that's the only way to get her into bed? And why her? He's been hanging out with a bunch of rich eligible women, what was so compelling about Marion that made him still want her so bad even without money? Oh, I guess we're back to my first point. Fair enough.

 

4 hours ago, Brian Cronin said:

I'm not saying that it is convincing, but his theory was that he kept getting tempted by all of these rich folks who wanted him to marry their rich daughters, so he was hoping that if they married quickly, he could avoid temptation, but since they didn't marry quickly enough, it was too late. Again, not saying it makes a ton of sense, but that's the idea. 

 

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Plus the last time they met at Mrs. Chamberlain's he was going on and on about what was going on in society!

Seriously, I do not get what he was supposed to be thinking. Why was he creating problems for himself for no reason? He could have just stopped being so pushy and wound up married to somebody else. Instead it's like he just didn't notice that the two plans he was working on were in direct opposition to each other. Like the two of them had everything aligned to make things easy on them and they both insisted on creating a problem out of nothing.

 

3 hours ago, Yeah No said:

it made no sense at all unless Marion had money he was keeping secret from her.  Why would he rush her into marriage if he thought he had a chance with Miss Moneybags?  I hope he gets dumped and his name smeared when she finds out he's a gold digger.  Then he'll come crawling back to Marion.  Not sure I trust her to resist him.  It would be nice if she does.  What made the whole thing even more unbelievable is Marion's lack of reaction.

 

1 hour ago, buckboard said:

I get that Raikes came to the realization he had better prospects than Marian and that he didn't want to marry her.

What I don't get is why he kept pursuing her and even proposed they elope, just days before they were to go away.  He clearly came to the realization the night before that he didn't want to go through with the marriage, but  he didn't have the balls to tell Marian in person that he had changed his mind.

And poor, feckless Marian didn't have the backbone to tell him off when she saw him at the ball.    

As I understand it:

1. Marian had no money, Raikes just fell in love with her.
2. He followed her to NYC and proposed to her. He didn't need her to get in the society, he did it on his own (the opera)
3. He noticed that he liked the society, but was still in love with her, so he asked her to marry him quickly (his talk about "temptations")
4. Only in the evening before the wedding (what kind a man goes out and flirts with another women?) he noticed that he has a possibility to marry a heiress, so next day he realized that he didn't want to live poor ad, while still loving her, decided to dump her. 

In short, he wasn't bad from the beginning but just weak.

He reminds me of Willoughby in Sense and Sensibility by Jane Austen who also chose money over love. But Willoughby had charisma and one felt strongly for Marianne when he dumped her.

Raikes and Marian just had no spark.

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

But did you know that Monsieur Baudin was from Wichita, Kansas? I bet not! Now that was a twist! His accent was hilarious.

Why did Carrie C*** want to refer to it as the "Middle West" though? Is that what they called the Midwest in 1882 or what an Englishman thinks that what Americans refer to the Midwest as?

Maybe it was a wink to the audience? Clark Kent was from Kansas which showed to Lois Lane that he couldn't be a good journalist.  

4 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

It's so strange that Marian has had no other suitors than Raikes and Larry (?).  She has no personal fortune, but she's a socially out attractive young woman from an old money family.  You'd think she'd have been everywhere and had several admirers.  Instead it's the Russells - the family supposedly shut out by New York society - who seem to be everywhere.

Marian's aunts nor Aurora haven't introduced any young men to her. This was the first ball she attended at and she was a wall flower during the first dances.

Also, why would a man of society chose Marian if he can get a pretty heiress with good connections? 

[Brian Cronin]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

In short, he wasn't bad from the beginning but just weak.

 

Yeah, I think that that is fair. I found an interview with Fellowes about the finale and he noted, " I think he was genuinely in love with her in the early days of his time in New York. It was her presence in New York that inspired him to make his dream come true, pack up his life in Doylestown and come to the city. But the problem is once you’ve gotten a taste of the life, it changes you. In society, a handsome man who talks well and has a good tailcoat can go anywhere. There’s always a shortage in society of young single men. If you talk well, if you have good manners, if you don’t look ridiculous and you don’t get very drunk, you can go anywhere. I know that. That happened to me when I was at university. But Raikes becomes exposed to a way of life that he had barely imagined. He goes to these palaces. He doesn’t want to be seduced by it. He wants to stay true to who he is, but staying true means a very hard life as a lawyer and a long time going by before he could make some money, nevermind the vast amounts he might get if he marries into wealth. It’s very difficult.

In Hollywood, I’ve seen young women arrive who were ambitious and then they get taken up by the head of a studio or a director and suddenly they are with someone who can make their dreams come true. Their old boyfriend, he was great, but he couldn’t make their dreams come true. That’s a tough position to be in. I’m not without sympathy for Raikes, but Marian is ultimately the more substantial person. In the end, she would not abandon her principles in order to make that gilded life happen. She may go to balls and dinners and rather enjoy them, but she has more of a moral backbone than he does."

I think that that fits with your take, as well. Raikes isn't a dirtbag, he's just a weak man who was tempted with wealth and status and he chose that over Marion, who, not for nothing, the guy barely even really KNOWS, right? 

I'm a bit surprised, though, to see the discussion of Marion's moral backbone. I am not saying she DOESN'T have a strong moral backbone, but I don't think we've necessarily seen her demonstrate it as of yet (Marion is a nice lady, of course, but I don't know about "moral backbone"). 

[bybrandy]

My issue with trying to understand Peggy's father's actions is this objectionable man who ran off with Peggy is somebody we've only heard about (and barely that) in stories.  All the other objectionable characters we get to see first had.   Some here like Bertha some here hate Bertha but you know Bertha.   

We know Raikes.  

That guy who courted Ada for a second and a half we saw his charm and we saw what Agnes new about him.

Peggy's husband is barely a shaddow.  Do we know his name?

[bybrandy]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

As for Peggy, I hope that when she realizes when she meets his son that he is better off with the care of his foster parents who are the only parents he had ever known. Sometimes the greatest love a mother can show is to give up her child.

Peggy had such a good plot line as as a writer and journalist as well as a modern women (unlike Marian). Why did Fellowes create this sentimental rubbish to her?

I don't see how Peggy and her mother are going to be any position to go to Philladelphia and just find Peggy's son so I suspect your worries won't come to pass at least not until the very, very end of season 2 or beyond.  I think it is more likely her coming back frustrated and unfulfilled is going to lead her to go further into the journalism world maybe even leading towards a Nellie Bly style investigation of whomever or whatever brokerage her father used to place this child.

She has a letter saying the child is fine... but that letter could be as full of flies as every word her father has said to her since the day he allowed her to believe her child was dead.  I don't know how Peggy could really ever trust anything ever again so I could see how that would be a massive fuel for her journalism career.  

 

[NeenerNeener]

8 hours ago, dmc said:

Marion's atrocious pale yellow ball gown that looked made her skin sallow and the red flower that made her look like a deer recently shot.  

On my tv it was pale green with that horrible, deep red whatever it was. And it looked like hell in green too.

I'm trying to imagine Amanda Peet as Bertha and I just can't.  I'm glad they recast the role. 

 

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, Brian Cronin said:

[Fellowes:] "but Marian is ultimately the more substantial person. In the end, she would not abandon her principles in order to make that gilded life happen. She may go to balls and dinners and rather enjoy them, but she has more of a moral backbone than he does."

- - -

I'm a bit surprised, though, to see the discussion of Marion's moral backbone. I am not saying she DOESN'T have a strong moral backbone, but I don't think we've necessarily seen her demonstrate it as of yet (Marion is a nice lady, of course, but I don't know about "moral backbone"). 

I agree.

We have seen that Marian oppose "ridicules rules" of the society and/or her aunts, both mostly in secret, but we haven't seen her moral backbone yet. Or is it honesty part of it?

If she has it, she wouldn't have planned to elope but talked honestly to Agnes about her aim to marry Raikes, as Ada suggested. Not that she wouldn't have changed her mind, as she didn't listen to Aurora, either, although she wasn't prejudiced towards Raikes from the beginning like Agnes was.

 

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, Brian Cronin said:

Yeah, I think that that is fair. I found an interview with Fellowes about the finale and he noted, " I think he was genuinely in love with her in the early days of his time in New York. It was her presence in New York that inspired him to make his dream come true, pack up his life in Doylestown and come to the city. But the problem is once you’ve gotten a taste of the life, it changes you. In society, a handsome man who talks well and has a good tailcoat can go anywhere. There’s always a shortage in society of young single men. If you talk well, if you have good manners, if you don’t look ridiculous and you don’t get very drunk, you can go anywhere. I know that. That happened to me when I was at university. But Raikes becomes exposed to a way of life that he had barely imagined. He goes to these palaces. He doesn’t want to be seduced by it. He wants to stay true to who he is, but staying true means a very hard life as a lawyer and a long time going by before he could make some money, nevermind the vast amounts he might get if he marries into wealth. It’s very difficult.

In Hollywood, I’ve seen young women arrive who were ambitious and then they get taken up by the head of a studio or a director and suddenly they are with someone who can make their dreams come true. Their old boyfriend, he was great, but he couldn’t make their dreams come true. That’s a tough position to be in."

I understand that a person can change his/her mind who to marry when the circumstances changes. But most people do it in a different manner: either they honestly tell the truth, or they they do it indirectly by meeting, calling or writing less often. Not that they are painful, too. Instead, Raikes (almost) left Marian before the altar! 

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, bybrandy said:

I don't see how Peggy and her mother are going to be any position to go to Philladelphia and just find Peggy's son so I suspect your worries won't come to pass at least not until the very, very end of season 2 or beyond.  I think it is more likely her coming back frustrated and unfulfilled is going to lead her to go further into the journalism world maybe even leading towards a Nellie Bly style investigation of whomever or whatever brokerage her father used to place this child.

This is a soap, so Peggy can find her child in the same manner, by coincidence, that George was saved from jail.

[Haleth]

The Marian/Raikes plot sure landed with a splat.  Even though he wasn't secretly hiding her fortune we all knew their elopement was never going to happen.  I think it makes more sense that he bailed after he set his sights on a wealthier lady.  Marian is lucky he didn't go through with the marriage.  And he is lucky she's such a bland, insipid creature who couldn't muster enough emotion to cry or yell at him or show any distress.

Peggy's baby.  Yeah, we all saw that coming too.

The ball was lovely (except for Marian's hideous yellow/green gown) and I'm glad everyone showed up.  The scandal of the not French chef was pretty funny although predictable.  

8 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Except without the context that made it make sense. AV threw a ball everyone wanted to go to and didn't invite Mrs. Astor.

Yeah, this would have been better.  Mrs Astor's pride instead of her placating her spoiled daughter.

9 hours ago, Straycat80 said:

That was one hell of a ball to get over the next day, looked like mid morning.

Gilded Age balls didn't start until like 10pm and didn't end until breakfast at dawn.  

[Conotocarious]

4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As I understand it:

1. Marian had no money, Raikes just fell in love with her.
2. He followed her to NYC and proposed to her. He didn't need her to get in the society, he did it on his own (the opera)
3. He noticed that he liked the society, but was still in love with her, so he asked her to marry him quickly (his talk about "temptations")
4. Only in the evening before the wedding (what kind a man goes out and flirts with another women?) he noticed that he has a possibility to marry a heiress, so next day he realized that he didn't want to live poor ad, while still loving her, decided to dump her. 

In short, he wasn't bad from the beginning but just weak.

He reminds me of Willoughby in Sense and Sensibility by Jane Austen who also chose money over love. But Willoughby had charisma and one felt strongly for Marianne when he dumped her.

Raikes and Marian just had no spark.

I think you have the measure of it. Did anyone watch the behind the scenes after the show? According to the actor, Raikes really did love Marian. I personally didn’t interpret it that way at all. Whoever said it’s hard to feel for Marian when she doesn’t seem to have any strong emotions about anything is right. At least in Sense and Sensibility you really felt for Marianne and Willoughby was a proper weakling and scoundrel. They really half-assed this one and it went over really limply. Oh well. I still really enjoyed this show and overall I very much liked this episode.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Conotocarious

[Conotocarious]

1 hour ago, NeenerNeener said:

On my tv it was pale green with that horrible, deep red whatever it was. And it looked like hell in green too.

I'm trying to imagine Amanda Peet as Bertha and I just can't.  I'm glad they recast the role. 

 

Yup, on my TV it was a pale green as well. 

[Lassus]

SO

I guess Raikes wasn't exactly Moriarty now, was he?

[Lassus]

7 hours ago, ZeeEnnui said:

BOOOOOOOOOOO. I hate this daytime soap opera of a storyline for Peggy. 

God, yes. 

[BeatrixK]

9 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Aurora risked everything without regard for her safety and went to the Chamber of Secrets (Mrs. Chamberlain's house)... FOR MARIAN!!!

Mrs. Fane is the Badger and Skinny Pete of Gilded Age.

[Melina22]

40 minutes ago, Haleth said:

And he is lucky she's such a bland, insipid creature who couldn't muster enough emotion to cry or yell at him or show any distress.

Doesn't she say to Larry at the ball that she's feeling numb? And he responds that he hopes she's okay once the numbness wears off, or words to that effect?

Because that's a real thing. I've lived it and seen it in others. You think "Huh. I'm fine. I actually don't feel that upset." Then 48 hours later it hits you like a ton of bricks and you realize that you were numb, and it's wearing off. 

[Brian Cronin]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

Yeah, this would have been better.  Mrs Astor's pride instead of her placating her spoiled daughter.

10 hours ago, Straycat80 said:

Not only that, but that's one of my big problems with this approach, it gives Bertha a "win" when her plan wasn't really a good one at all, it just got lucky that Astor cared about placating her daughter, which was far, far, far (FAR) from being evident. Perhaps if they had thrown in a bit where someone like McCallister told Bertha, "The way to get to Astor is through her daughter. She feels so guilty that she'll do anything for her," then this gambit would make sense. But we didn't see that at all, so the plan really shouldn't have worked, and thus Bertha's smug satisfaction really kind of grated knowing how much of it was just complete luck. 

[kristen111]

10 hours ago, eejm said:

Jeez, Marian.  Tell Raikes he’s the asshole that he is.  He deserves it!  Have a fucking backbone.  

I don’t get it.  What was Raikes intention with Marian in the first place?  I hope she’s a zillionaire after all, and sticks it to him.  Was he just having a little fun?  Heartbreak is a bitch.

[BabyBella94]

I feel like the way they portrayed Mrs Astor was a bit of a let down. She was talked up as being the ultimate social chess master, controlling everything behind the scenes. But apart from getting her friends to come to the ball we didn't really get to see much of that. Her big showdown with Mrs Russell was basically Mrs Russell telling her what to do, and her accepting it without actually saying so. I don't think people realize how powerful Mrs. Astor was, she could literally blackball her own husband from gentleman clubs... Bertha doesn't have the power to antagonize Mrs Astor to the extent she has.

 

 

[ahpny]

On 3/21/2022 at 11:59 PM, buttersister said:

The Russells’ blackmailing of literally everyone with any influence to come to Gladys’ ball really kind of awesome

Neither Russell blackmailed anyone. Blackmail is a demand for payment in exchange for not revealing a secret (and it may be a crime). Each Russell here merely demanded a quid pro quo, that is, something in exchange for something else. That is not illegal or even immoral, at least here. Nevertheless, it was kind of awesome. Seeing unkind people with power get what's coming to them never gets old.

The "something" offered by each Russell, respectively, to Mrs. Astor and the guy who wanted a loan extension, was set in motion by not by the Russells, but instead by those who wanted something from them. Mrs. Astor "started it" by snubbing Bertha. Betha can invite or disinvite whomever she pleases to her own party. George Russell demanded nothing from the guy who wanted a loan extension until that guy came to Mr. Russell hat in hand. And the gall of that the guy who wanted a loan extension to castigate George Russell as "not a gentlemen." Screw him. George should have responded "As someone who needs access to my money, it is neither your concern nor your place to question whether I might, or might not be, a gentleman."

Edited March 23, 2022 by ahpny

[kristen111]

10 hours ago, Straycat80 said:

That was one hell of a ball to get over the next day, looked like mid morning. The ballroom dancing was very elegant. 
what was the point of Raikes and Marian? Why did he ask her to elope knowing she had no money and that is what he was after in the first place. That was a dumb storyline. 
I guess we’ll have to see if Marian ends up with Larry. And I hope Gladys doesn’t end up with Oscar. Hopefully Bertha will be careful, like investigating Oscar first, before she lets him or any guy marry Gladys.

Not sure if I care about bald servant guy and rich lady secret. 
So Bertha managed to achieve a lot in social status with the old money people. I’m kind of impressed. And I’m glad she’s keeping the chef who really wasn’t a French chef. 
I like this series very much, I can’t wait until season two. 

 

I love how Mrs. Aster gave in to her daughter.  Mothers are soft.  She walked into the ball like a Queen, lol.  Bertha got into society thru Gladys.

[dmc]

9 hours ago, AntFTW said:

As the only single, heterosexual (we assume), unrelated male left, Larry seems destined to end up with Marion. Maybe she will be more interesting with him next season.

Agreed it’s like a murder mystery with two characters and one is dead.  Process of elimination says it’s Larry.  

[BabyBella94]

Larry and Marian are cute 🤷‍♀️ Apparently they danced and talked all night, she seems to trust him enough to tell him about Mr.Raikes. I hope they become a couple. 

[AntFTW]

10 hours ago, buckboard said:

I get that Raikes came to the realization he had better prospects than Marian and that he didn't want to marry her.

I’m thinking the pickings are slim in Doylestown. Marian was the prettiest thing to ever walk through the door of Raikes’ small town office. He was smitten.

Then Raikes leaves Pennsylvania for NY to chase Marian. He settles and gets a job in NY for Marian. Marian urges him to gain a foothold into society so that Agnes will approve and Raikes does that for Marian. However, while bulldozing his way into society, he meets other beautiful women who are also wealthy. The women from wealthy families take him on adventures and do activities that he never thought of when he was just a country lawyer back in Doylestown. He’s gone from mansion to mansion interacting with old money families and their lovely, beautiful suitable daughters who cling to him and are willing to spend their money on him.

Now, he’s not in Doylestown anymore and he has options. Who woulda thought?

10 hours ago, buckboard said:

What I don't get is why he kept pursuing her and even proposed they elope, just days before they were to go away.  He clearly came to the realization the night before that he didn't want to go through with the marriage, but  he didn't have the balls to tell Marian in person that he had changed his mind.

My understanding he was trying to convince himself that marrying Marian will either make his love for her stronger or make his love for her real.

Edited March 22, 2022 by AntFTW

[larapu2000]

Since all but the Peggy storylines were wrapped up in a bow in this season finale, can we start over next season with BETTER plots, BETTER dialogue, BETTER acting, and a BETTER show runner?  Good god, the set and costume designers understood the assignment, so how can Fellowes turn out this shitty, shitty bunk and still get paid?  There are no real stakes to these plots except for Peggy, which is probably why it's the only people generally seem to enjoy.  Bertha may not get into society, but she would still be rich.  George may have a catastrophe with the wreck, but he would still be rich.  Larry may not get to be an architect, but he would still be rich.  Oscar may not get to be out of the closet, but he would still be rich.  Mrs. Chamberlain is snubbed by society, but guess what????  She still gets to be rich.

Society rose and fell with wealth coming and going, with scandal and pettiness.  Fellowes needs to read a Wharton book to understand how to write women well and how to write about how their destinies and futures were determined in that time, and the choices and sacrifices women had to make and how they had to navigate society and expectations in order not to fall into ruin and poverty.  Goddammit, I wanted to love this show so badly.  SO BADLY.  

[AntFTW]

Is it safe to say that the woman that we saw Chef Borden/Baudin arguing with in the street a few episodes back is his wife?

[Yeah No]

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

As I understand it:

1. Marian had no money, Raikes just fell in love with her.
2. He followed her to NYC and proposed to her. He didn't need her to get in the society, he did it on his own (the opera)
3. He noticed that he liked the society, but was still in love with her, so he asked her to marry him quickly (his talk about "temptations")
4. Only in the evening before the wedding (what kind a man goes out and flirts with another women?) he noticed that he has a possibility to marry a heiress, so next day he realized that he didn't want to live poor ad, while still loving her, decided to dump her. 

In short, he wasn't bad from the beginning but just weak.

He reminds me of Willoughby in Sense and Sensibility by Jane Austen who also chose money over love. But Willoughby had charisma and one felt strongly for Marianne when he dumped her.

Raikes and Marian just had no spark.

All of this, especially your last sentence sums up why it made no sense.  We could understand Raikes' hot pursuit of Marion if it was believable that he was head over heels for her, but their lack of spark and wooden acting made us think he had more sinister motives for wanting to marry her.  If the show wanted us to believe all of the above, it could have done better at conveying it.

[Athena5217]

1 hour ago, Brian Cronin said:

Not only that, but that's one of my big problems with this approach, it gives Bertha a "win" when her plan wasn't really a good one at all, it just got lucky that Astor cared about placating her daughter, which was far, far, far (FAR) from being evident. Perhaps if they had thrown in a bit where someone like McCallister told Bertha, "The way to get to Astor is through her daughter. She feels so guilty that she'll do anything for her," then this gambit would make sense. But we didn't see that at all, so the plan really shouldn't have worked, and thus Bertha's smug satisfaction really kind of grated knowing how much of it was just complete luck.

I don’t think Bertha got lucky. I think she knew the power of both a mother’s love and the stubbornness of a teenage girl who wants to go to her friend’s party.

[AntFTW]

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

2. He followed her to NYC and proposed to her. He didn't need her to get in the society, he did it on his own (the opera)

I will add that Raikes did it for Marian. Marian asked him to break into society in an attempt to gain Agnes’ approval.… and Raikes was lucky enough to know a Schermerhorn to help accomplish that mission.

Marian couldn’t help if she wanted to because Agnes didn’t approve.

Edited March 22, 2022 by AntFTW

[Yeah No]

2 hours ago, Conotocarious said:

I think you have the measure of it. Did anyone watch the behind the scenes after the show? According to the actor, Raikes really did love Marian. I personally didn’t interpret it that way at all. Whoever said it’s hard to feel for Marian when she doesn’t seem to have any strong emotions about anything is right. At least in Sense and Sensibility you really felt for Marianne and Willoughby was a proper weakling and scoundrel. They really half-assed this one and it went over really limply. Oh well. I still really enjoyed this show and overall I very much liked this episode.

Thanks, that's exactly how I feel about it.  And I personally won't be holding my breath waiting for Marion to start showing some signs of real emotion or trauma over their breakup.  We haven't seen her show any so far so why should she suddenly become more than a two dimensional character?  It's why we're all scratching our heads about both his motives and her reaction.  This plotline wasn't very well written OR acted.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Yeah No

[Pop Tart]

11 hours ago, Brian Cronin said:

The Raikes thing is fascinating, in that it just sort of petered out. No big drama, no big twist, just "Oh yeah, he realized he could fuck some lady with a LOT of money." It's very strange, but I dunno, maybe it's almost a good thing to mess with expectations? I tend to have stronger opinions on decisions that Fellowes makes, but I am really sort of up in the air on this one. I don't know that I would have preferred a more dramatic twist than Raikes just realizing there were other ladies that could make him a richer guy. Hmm...as I write it, I think I'm okay with it, honestly. It doesn't even necessarily make Raikes out to be a TOTAL scumbag, really. 

I don't think the actor pulled it off very well (for all the heat Louise gets for her acting, I'd say Raikes is equally not good or even worse maybe?), but I do think it is realistic that he pushed to marry Marian when he was first in town because he liked her and he thought she'd maybe give him entry into society. Then as time went on he began to realize there were other options but was too weak and cowardly to cut bait with Marian.

And though their engagement was secret, to dump a woman you're engaged to was considered to be a scandalous offense that could ruin a young woman. Even if she did nothing wrong and it was all the jerk-guy, having an engagement ended was a big deal. And again, this was a secret engagement, but this could have been in Raikes mind. It's not just letting a girl down easy, it's breaking a serious promise. 

I agree that I kind of like that the end of their relationship wasn't because he was some grand schemer after her secret fortune and she discovers it or some other super-dramatic plot. He's just a craven guy too chicken to face Marian and tell her he's going for someone else with more money. He didn't even have enough courage to tell her face to face but was writing her a letter. 

This is not to say that I thought it was as well-written (or acted on his part) as it could have been, but I do think it was realistic plotting.

10 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

It's so strange that Marian has had no other suitors than Raikes and Larry (?).  She has no personal fortune, but she's a socially out attractive young woman from an old money family.  You'd think she'd have been everywhere and had several admirers.  Instead it's the Russells - the family supposedly shut out by New York society - who seem to be everywhere.

This has been bugging me for a few episodes now. Marian's aunts should have been making sure that Marian was going to social events, parties, etc. to meet eligible men. Aunt Agnes didn't like Raikes, but just who is Marian supposed to be matching with? Marian, like Gladys, should have had some kind of introduction to New York society and been part of the events going on. Instead they just had her tagging along to Clara Barton speeches and charity bazaars. Initially I had thought that the Aunts didn't have much money left, but as Marian's wardrobe grew I knew that wasn't the case. So if they want Marian to make a good match, they would have been taking her out and about, hosting dinner parties, etc.

I do wonder if covid protocols had impact on some of the choices made in the filming. They perhaps wanted to limit the number of scenes with big swaths of the cast and kept separate little pods of people? 

Edited March 22, 2022 by Pop Tart

[eejm]

6 hours ago, ahpny said:

Neither Russell blackmailed anyone. Blackmail is a demand for payment in exchange for not revealing a secret (and it may be a crime). Each Russell here merely demanded a quip pro quo, that is, something in exchange for something else. That is not illegal or even immoral, at least here. Nevertheless, it was kind of awesome. Seeing unkind people with power get what's coming to them never gets old.

The "something" offered by each Russell, respectively, to Mrs. Astor and the guy who wanted a loan extension, was set in motion by not by the Russells, but instead by those who wanted something from them. Mrs. Astor "started it" by snubbing Bertha. Betha can invite or disinvite whomever she pleases to her own party. George Russell demanded nothing from the guy who wanted a loan extension until that guy came to Mr. Russell hat in hand. And the gall of that the guy who wanted a loan extension to castigate George Russell as "not a gentlemen." Screw him. George should have responded "As someone who needs access to my money, it is neither your concern nor your place to question whether I might, or might not be, a gentleman."

Yeah, thanks for that.

Edited March 22, 2022 by eejm

[BeatrixK]

1 hour ago, BabyBella94 said:

I feel like the way they portrayed Mrs Astor was a bit of a let down. She was talked up as being the ultimate social chess master, controlling everything behind the scenes. But apart from getting her friends to come to the ball we didn't really get to see much of that. Her big showdown with Mrs Russell was basically Mrs Russell telling her what to do, and her accepting it without actually saying so. I don't think people realize how powerful Mrs. Astor was, she could literally blackball her own husband from gentleman clubs... Bertha doesn't have the power to antagonize Mrs Astor to the extent she has.

 

 

Well, Mr. Bertha did manage to put the other men on the ropes, financially.  And Bertha is shrewd. A little too eager...and Bertha is also a tad too singularly focused for her own good - but she knows how to wedge that well-heeled foot in the door.  Bertha 'Bustle with Muscle' Russell rose far, fast - and looks like she at least got every i dotted and every t crossed in terms of the right people, the right location, etc.  So Mrs. Astor has to know the Russell's did not come to play.  And so she at least has to give pause to Bertha as a contender and thus, Bertha has a bit of leverage in the present until Mrs. Astor can properly assess and re-evaluate.

I don't think for a second her little misstep that led out the back way of Mrs. Astor's home will get swept away though. (The Maid she fired finding that bit out would certainly come in REAL handy against the gal who fired you and whose husband you totally want to bone.)  I can see them getting a tad friendly...then the whole 'Oh yeah, I totally scoped your awesome beach pad on the sly.  Oopsie!'  is gonna come up and that will start the war.  (Because, presumably Bertha will spearhead whatever they turn the whole Met creation into.)

Edited March 22, 2022 by BeatrixK
Bad cursor!

[kristen111]

1 hour ago, Melina22 said:

Doesn't she say to Larry at the ball that she's feeling numb? And he responds that he hopes she's okay once the numbness wears off, or words to that effect?

Because that's a real thing. I've lived it and seen it in others. You think "Huh. I'm fine. I actually don't feel that upset." Then 48 hours later it hits you like a ton of bricks and you realize that you were numb, and it's wearing off. 

Me too at 18.  That was some love affair between them.  He breaks her heart, so she goes home, gets dressed and dances the night away.  The girl shows no emotion.  She has that same look on her face from Day one.  Zero.   Sorry, but any other actress would have done much better.  She’s very bland.

[Yeah No]

1 hour ago, BabyBella94 said:

I feel like the way they portrayed Mrs Astor was a bit of a let down. She was talked up as being the ultimate social chess master, controlling everything behind the scenes. But apart from getting her friends to come to the ball we didn't really get to see much of that. Her big showdown with Mrs Russell was basically Mrs Russell telling her what to do, and her accepting it without actually saying so. I don't think people realize how powerful Mrs. Astor was, she could literally blackball her own husband from gentleman clubs... Bertha doesn't have the power to antagonize Mrs Astor to the extent she has.

I think the Mrs. Astor giving into her daughter was used to convey the real historical issue behind it.  When McAllister told her that if she didn't break down and start accepting the "new money" into society they would just go ahead and start their own society and keep the old society out of it, that was very true to life and was probably already happening.  She was seeing the writing on the wall before this and her daughter's pressure was the straw that broke the camel's back. 

[PRgal]

7 hours ago, rollacoaster said:

Peggy's father gave me Mister from The Color Purple vibes.

I absolutely can see him doing what he did to Peggy. He rose from being enslaved to a life of accomplishment and wealth. Imagine that ascent! Imagine the drive that took! I can compare him to Mr. Russell in some ways, though on a smaller scale. What Mr. Scott built was more impressive, IMO, as he started with literally nothing and managed to achieve so much in a racist society.  

I think we'd like to belive that Mr. Scott would be more noble and compassionate somehow, having experienced life as enslaved. Not necessarily. I can imagine he, like George Russell, had to develop a hard shell as he built his wealth. And, like George Russell, he used his wealth and power to ruthlessly separate his daughter from a man deemed unworthy. He took on the values of the dominant culture of the time. As a person of wealth, he felt entitled to exercise control over the lives of his daughter and ANY lower status person, in this case Peggy's husband. You'd think he'd have some compassion or feel some kinship with Peggy's young man who perhaps had dreams of working his way up. Nope. Like Bertha, Mr. Scott pulls up the ladder and slams the door. 

I think Mr. Scott took the actions he did to protect the family reputation, and out of a misguided love for Peggy. Unfortunately, despite being a once powerless person, he chose to abuse his power and deprive Peggy of her choices.

I guess I get where you’re coming from re: Peggy’s dad.  My dad grew up in Hong Kong, probably JUST above the poverty line.  I don’t think they were ever HUNGRY or anything, but he was definitely not middle class like his peers, who had more time to hang out after school.  Yet, Dad managed not only to graduate high school with honours, get not only an undergrad, but two masters (including an MBA).  He went on to a successful career in finance and still is (sort of) in it today (he’s in his 70s).  My dad wouldn’t have been as extreme as Mr. Scott (different times, after all), I could see him (and my mom) being like Bertha, wanting me to be a certain way.  I guess they sort of were…I was pressured to take a job somewhere that I had zero interest in going to, quitting a nice internship that paid little but could lead to other opportunities (I actually thought it was ideal - PR (which was what I wanted to do) for a bank (hey Dad, it’s finance!  Proud of me??!!).  He (and my mom, too…she gave up on me early on in terms following her footsteps since I’m basically hopeless when it comes to coding) thought the internship would lead to nowhere after my contract was up and that other job would.  Your child’s career isn’t the stock market! 

[izabella]

9 minutes ago, Pop Tart said:

This has been bugging me for a few episodes now. Marian's aunts should have been making sure that Marian was going to social events, parties, etc. to meet eligible men. Aunt Agnes didn't like Raikes, but just who is Marian supposed to be matching with? Marian, like Gladys, should have had some kind of introduction to New York society and been part of the events going on. Instead they just had her tagging along wot Clara Barton speeches and charity bazaars. Initially I had thought that the Aunts didn't have much money left, but as Marian's wardrobe grew I knew that wasn't the case. So if they want Marian to make a good match, they would have been taking her out and about, hosting dinner parties, etc.

I do wonder if covid protocols had impact on some of the choices made in the filming. They perhaps wanted to limit the number of scenes with big swaths of the cast and kept separate little pods of people? 

This has been bothering me, too.  There was that initial introduction to Oskar's boyfriend, but other than that, there haven't been any others that Agnes tried to introduce her to.  I would have expected Agnes and Ada to push him to introduce more of his single friends to Marian.  Not to mention, even if Agnes and Ada don't get out much, Aurora is right there!  I'm sure she'd be happy to take Marian around everywhere with her and introduce her to eligible young men.

I have also been disappointed that the only ball we've seen was in this episode.  Why didn't Mrs. Astor have a ball or Mrs. Fane or anyone else?  Marian could have at least met some other young men, even if she was still stuck on Raikes.  And they could have shown Bertha being excluded and fuming about it, as an example of why it mattered to her to be "in" with the Old Money people.

[Lassus]

44 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

2 hours ago, Conotocarious said:

I think you have the measure of it. Did anyone watch the behind the scenes after the show? According to the actor, Raikes really did love Marian. I personally didn’t interpret it that way at all. Whoever said it’s hard to feel for Marian when she doesn’t seem to have any strong emotions about anything is right. At least in Sense and Sensibility you really felt for Marianne and Willoughby was a proper weakling and scoundrel. They really half-assed this one and it went over really limply. Oh well. I still really enjoyed this show and overall I very much liked this episode.

Thanks, that's exactly how I feel about it.

I disagree with this in regards to Marian.  In a real-life way, there actually ARE plenty of people who aren't falling on their fainting couches with grief or heartbreak.  I know it's entertainment and all, so I get the desire; but for the same reason I find Peggy's new FIND MY SON storyline fucking awful, I find Marian to be relatable because she's not reality-TV hyper-dramatic telegraphed, and therefore more real.
 

(Yes, I know it's subjective.)

18 minutes ago, izabella said:

I have also been disappointed that the only ball we've seen was in this episode.  Why didn't Mrs. Astor have a ball or Mrs. Fane or anyone else? 

Pretty sure the show has SOME kind of budget.  ;-)

Edited March 22, 2022 by Lassus

[Yeah No]

1 minute ago, Lassus said:

I disagree with this in regards to Marian.  In a real-life way, there actually ARE plenty of people who aren't falling on their fainting couches with grief or heartbreak.  I know it's entertainment and all, so I get the desire, but for the same reason I find Peggy's new FIND YOUR SON storyline fucking awful, I find Marian to be relatable because she's not reality-TV hyper-dramatic telegraphed, and therefore more real.

I'm sure there are, I know people like that.  But even they show some sort of reaction, even if it's not a direct emotional one.  They could become crabby, start drinking, abuse the dog, overeat, engage in hidden strange behavior, even silent depression, etc.  It comes out somehow even if a person isn't emotional.  No reaction at all is not IMHO realistic.  That isn't to say we won't see evidence of some reaction next season, though.  It may not be an emotional one.  She may react by being overeager to turn over a new leaf and get involved in a not-so-advisable rebound relationship or throw herself into some sort of work.  It should come out somehow.  If it doesn't, I won't find it very believable.

[izabella]

10 hours ago, ZeeEnnui said:

BOOOOOOOOOOO. I hate this daytime soap opera of a storyline for Peggy. 

Me too.  Already, Peggy's story line has been reduced to "My baby!  My Baby!  My BABY!"  I don't want to see any more of it.

[showme]

On 3/19/2022 at 11:36 AM, Haleth said:

Ooh, looks like Bertha is going to pull the same trick Alva Vanderbilt did to get noticed by Mrs Astor. This should be fun. 

What trick was that?

[showme]

12 hours ago, Popples said:

If you're going to unknowingly be with a gay guy, go for the more attractive one.

Who is the more attractive one in your eyes?