S26.E10: Week 9

[econ07]

7 hours ago, LindaT said:

The difference between the Luke and the Susie situation...  Luke was basically saying to Hannah that he wouldn't be able to be with her because he would think of her as a slut and that is not how he wants his future wife to behave.  Also, I think he may have been bluffing to try to control her and didn't expect the reaction from Hannah that he got. Also, saying I love you wasn't an issue.  Susie, on the other hand, was saying that if you are able to tell the other women you love them and sleep with them, then even if you love me the most, you don't love me enough.   

I think this is the only way Luke and Susie are similar ... not wanting a person considering an engagement with them to be sleeping around. (In most other ways, Luke was a jerk.). In fact, if I remember correctly, he eventually said he could get past it whereas Susie did not.

And some insight into male psychology, physical fidelity is often more important than words in expressing love, whereas it seems vitally important to these women.

[DA6988]

I think that towards the end there Susie did say she was starting to think she could get past it but now it seemed like he was done with her? I might have misheard but that’s one of the things that annoyed me cause it seemed like she tried to make it seem like he was ending it with her when she was the one who initially.m said she couldn’t move past it. 

[LakeGal]

Susie might have thought it would not matter to her if he slept with more than just her.  But as it got closer to the time she changed her mind.  In the past the contestants did not have to room together for Fantasy suite week.  They did not know what order he was dating them.  They could convince themselves that he only slept with them.  Production now makes them sit there and watch the others go and come back with the radiant look of sex.  Susie didn't tell the Dolt it was a deal-breaker because she might not have thought that earlier.  But the situation changed her mind.

[MissPriss]

“…You're still the one I run to
The one that I belong to
You're still the one I want for life
(You're still the one)
You're still the one that I love
The only one I dream of
You're still the one I kiss goodnight…”

You're the best of 3 just doesn’t have the same ring. 🤔

Susie is a smart girl. Dare I say classy? 

[alexa]

1 hour ago, LakeGal said:

Susie might have thought it would not matter to her if he slept with more than just her.  But as it got closer to the time she changed her mind.  In the past the contestants did not have to room together for Fantasy suite week.  They did not know what order he was dating them.  They could convince themselves that he only slept with them.  Production now makes them sit there and watch the others go and come back with the radiant look of sex.  Susie didn't tell the Dolt it was a deal-breaker because she might not have thought that earlier.  But the situation changed her mind.

I agree.  And I know the show loves to play on drama, but I think they don't see how they have really ruined what was fun about the show in the first place by capitalizing on this kind of stuff--having the remaining contestants room together in the end, focusing on the villains, not showing any of the actual love stories going on.  This show has always been silly, but it used to have a formula that worked to keep people generally interested.  Now it is losing the main point of the show which is to try, at least a little, to find romance.

I also think because they do it this way, the contestants are getting smarter about playing the show, which means none of the seasons are working out anymore.  It has become a game of "beat the show" or defy the rules of the game.  (and I don't mean Susie defied the rules, just meaning, we have a lot of alternate endings because of the games the show plays on the contestants)

Edited March 11, 2022 by alexa

[sauce62]

I also think, as stated so well above, that the producers are taking perverse delight in public humiliation of their leads and contestants. Clayton is a supreme douche canoe, but I can't help but feel a very tiny bit sorry for him. He's just being a good puppet and doing what he's been coached to do. All in all a very uncomfortable social experiment to witness. What does it say about our culture that this is considered "entertainment"?

[DEL901]

2 hours ago, sauce62 said:

I also think, as stated so well above, that the producers are taking perverse delight in public humiliation of their leads and contestants. Clayton is a supreme douche canoe, but I can't help but feel a very tiny bit sorry for him. He's just being a good puppet and doing what he's been coached to do. All in all a very uncomfortable social experiment to witness. What does it say about our culture that this is considered "entertainment"?

He is so gullible and biddable. In an interview he was asked why Susie was last.   Producers said that if she went first, he might close off and he needed to “keep his options open”.   A more secure guy would have said “if Susie and I don’t click, I’ll give the other two a chance.  

I’m sure the producers didn’t expect Clayton’s ideas of keeping his options open meant full on declarations of love and then sex

Edited March 11, 2022 by DEL901

[Recyclorette]

4 hours ago, MissPriss said:

“…You're still the one I run to
The one that I belong to
You're still the one I want for life
(You're still the one)
You're still the one that I love
The only one I dream of
You're still the one I kiss goodnight…”

You're the best of 3 just doesn’t have the same ring. 🤔

Susie is a smart girl. Dare I say classy? 

Classy!!! That has been my feeling toward Susie all along.  Yes, the "likes" need an overhaul but, otherwise, I think Susie is a class act.  I sure didn't expect to feel that way about her when I kept reading that she was a Hannah Brown clone.  To me, Hannah was certainly not the definition of class.

As to Susie not outright telling Clayton that sleeping with the other women would be a deal breaker, I think she would have been seen as manipulative had she done that.  By letting him do this thing, she learned exactly who Clayton is.

[tinkerbell]

19 hours ago, DA6988 said:

also hope to not see Clayton ever again - again I don’t think he’s a villain I just think he’s not too bright and doesn’t have enough sense of self to engage in this process without getting distracted, letting the producers mess with him etc. 

Yes. I can see Clayton telling producers that Susie is his pick and will be his F1. And the producers asking him, how do you know for SURE? Can you really be 100% certain until you spend some alone time with each of the final 3?

Clayton, I am certain,  has never been in a situation where 2, let alone 3, women have been "in love" with him.  When someone declares their love, and has sex with him, he gets carried away and confuses that attention/adoration with his own feelings. He "loves" being pursued, being a prize in a competition. That's not the same as being in love with the competitors.

Edited March 11, 2022 by tinkerbell

[StatisticalOutlier]

3 hours ago, Recyclorette said:

By letting him do this thing, she learned exactly who Clayton is.

I agree completely, but feel I have to acknowledge that Clayton was manipulated by the show, so it might not be 100% Clayton she was seeing.  I just can't imagine what it must be like to have all these production people whispering in your ear and, really, running your life for that period of time.

[call me ishmael]

7 hours ago, alexa said:

I agree.  And I know the show loves to play on drama, but I think they don't see how they have really ruined what was fun about the show in the first place by capitalizing on this kind of stuff--having the remaining contestants room together in the end, focusing on the villains, not showing any of the actual love stories going on.  This show has always been silly, but it used to have a formula that worked to keep people generally interested.  Now it is losing the main point of the show which is to try, at least a little, to find romance.

I think that this is crucial.  I’m basically Team Susie on this.  But i do think we have to recognize that the real bad actors here are Fliess and production.  Susie behaved as you would if you were looking for a partner in real life.  Clayton behaved as you would if you were the lead according to bachelor rules.  I’m sure that production knew that Susie felt this way and ensured that she not only was rooming with the others but had her go last so that she would get more and more freaked out.  And I’m sure that clayton believed that “everyone” (except Sean) slept with multiple people and that was just never discussed.

Also if you consider how quickly production excised Shanae and Sarah when they wanted a new narrative you can see how this all worked out.  I thought at first that production was forcing him to keep Shanae but no.  He really just wanted to until they decided she had to go and told him what she was really on about.  Then they let Mara serve her purpose of providing the needed bit of seasonal bitterness and then dumped Sarah.  Since he had his eye on Susie from the beginning they provided the necessary drama to get us to the final crisis.

and then the world of the bachelor and the world of real life crashed into each other for THE MOST DRAMATIC FINALE EVER!

[nlkm9]

46 minutes ago, call me ishmael said:

I think that this is crucial.  I’m basically Team Susie on this.  But i do think we have to recognize that the real bad actors here are Fliess and production.  Susie behaved as you would if you were looking for a partner in real life.  Clayton behaved as you would if you were the lead according to bachelor rules.  I’m sure that production knew that Susie felt this way and ensured that she not only was rooming with the others but had her go last so that she would get more and more freaked out.  And I’m sure that clayton believed that “everyone” (except Sean) slept with multiple people and that was just never discussed.

Also if you consider how quickly production excised Shanae and Sarah when they wanted a new narrative you can see how this all worked out.  I thought at first that production was forcing him to keep Shanae but no.  He really just wanted to until they decided she had to go and told him what she was really on about.  Then they let Mara serve her purpose of providing the needed bit of seasonal bitterness and then dumped Sarah.  Since he had his eye on Susie from the beginning they provided the necessary drama to get us to the final crisis.

and then the world of the bachelor and the world of real life crashed into each other for THE MOST DRAMATIC FINALE EVER!

The very sardonic me wonders if they want to screw up the ending because of folks like reality steve who seem to always bring the spoilers . Ive always been a fan since day one but their manipulations of how people act and resulting in people being emotionally devestated is making me think twice about watching this. Its painful to watch. Almost sadistic in a way. 

[chocolatine]

Even if Clayton was manipulated, it was still his choice to tell all three women that he loved them, sleep with Rachel and Gabby, and then freak out and blame everything on Susie when she balked at his actions. Nobody held a gun to his head to make him do all those things.

[deSchenke]

Clayton somehow forgot that his proclamations of love and going to bed with all three (yes, only two, but his intentions were for all 3) women would be filmed. Did he really expect his F1 to be okay with that when the show aired?

In my opinion, there's an unwritten rule that if you are really seeking love, you bed with your final pick or you bed with no one. I guess being cut off from your friends and family with only production to talk to really skews your morals. And the L-word should not be used until the FRC. 

[StatisticalOutlier]

People do crazy shit when under duress, even without guns held to their heads.  Like confess to crimes they didn't commit--I guess you could say they "chose" to confess, but it's much more complicated than that.

And here I am analogizing Clayton to something complicated.  I didn't see that coming!

[DEL901]

30 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

Even if Clayton was manipulated, it was still his choice to tell all three women that he loved them, sleep with Rachel and Gabby, and then freak out and blame everything on Susie when she balked at his actions. Nobody held a gun to his head to make him do all those things.

He has said that since the women were okay with him kissing others in front of the others, he thought that they would be okay with his Fantasy Suite activities.    He has no awareness.  Most seasons, people pretend nothing happened with the other contestants which they can only do if you don’t announce it.  And he really doesn’t get the issue of declaring love for everyone just before going to bed.  I am sure Rachel and Gabby thought the words meant something and didn’t realize they should have asked for their ranking.  

[Sweet-tea]

On 3/10/2022 at 3:55 PM, mirandroid said:

He is SO!  BROKEN!

And so are my eye muscles from rolling them so hard. I hope if it's Susie's door he's knocking on she pretends not to be home or has someone else field the moron, "Susie? Well, she died 40 years ago!"

He really did turn out to be a mega douche.

He’s smirking while he says it! I don’t believe anything this guy says. He’s a tool.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Sweet-tea

[Recyclorette]

20 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

I agree completely, but feel I have to acknowledge that Clayton was manipulated by the show, so it might not be 100% Clayton she was seeing.  I just can't imagine what it must be like to have all these production people whispering in your ear and, really, running your life for that period of time.

Yours is a good point.  The lead would need to be uncompromisingly self assured to totally withstand the producer BS that gets worse with each season, and that is certainly not Clayton.  Personally, I don't think I could have done it in my 20s/early 30s.  Heck, I'm not sure I could even survive it now, and I'm and old goat!  This franchise is now over-the-top toxic.

[limecoke]

Clayton seems like a big dumb jerk, no, he’s worse than that. This might sound harsh but it sounds like he wanted a Fantasy Suite Hat Trick, using the “I love you” to reel ‘em in. He didn’t get it so he got angry. Then he makes her apologize and grovel at the end. He’s the worst. I haven’t liked him from the start but now, yeah, he’s worse than Nick, Juan Pablo, Ben and even sleazy Bob. Loser. 

”Uh…like.. I’m the most in love with you.” Are you kidding me?

Suzi’s the big winner in this & I don’t care who gets the Bachelorette gig. This show is so pathetic they might as well pick Shanae just to see what happens. On a positive note, yay Iceland and yay Northern Lights!

Edited March 12, 2022 by limecoke

[Andyourlittledog2]

From the very beginning the premise was ridiculous.

"It was so hard to choose between you and Griselda but today I finally decided on you. Will you marry me?" 

Be still my heart. A proposal shouldn't be a horse race that you win by a nose. 

This whole season has been full of terrible dates, btw.  Almost nothing was fun with the exception of Susie's princess date and the horseback riding one. Maybe the helicopter ride. Most of them were fear factor or harsh physical contests or 'therapeutic' baring of souls on national tv (twice). One was a roast for heaven's sake. Let's kayak through alligators, snakes, and enormous spiders. Seriously, what were these dates? And the final three dates were so uncomfortable.  Gabby got a scary fast dune buggy ride that made her fear for her life on a cold deserted beach. Susie got an icy tundra (that's hail! she cried) in which she almost blew away entirely followed by icy rooms and icy pools. Rachel got a helicopter ride (wasn't that her second one?) so that was better but still.  I guess production was hampered by covid restrictions but this was a very uncomfortable season overall, and not just because the bachelor was a jerk and a doofus.

[DEL901]

Clayton’s “I love yous” as he was leaving the Fantasy Suites were as bad as the ones he used to seal the deal to get Rachel and Gabby into the suites.  As much as Gabby, and I’m sure Rachel too, might have said they understood him needing to “explore the various connections deeper”, I am sure that when he left them and shouted out his love, they were sure that he was picking them.  That makes his Rose Ceremony confession worse.  

And I wonder how he explained Susie’s absence.  If he lied, after last week’s show, they will really be out for blood at After The Final Rose.  I’ve already god my snacks ordered.  

[halkatla]

On 3/9/2022 at 3:12 AM, DEL901 said:

I agree with everyone who says he is worse than Juan Pablo. JP owned his douchiness.   Clayton was pretending to be a nice guy until he didn’t get what he wanted.  It is like when he got rid of Sarah when he found out she said he cried.  That made him look bad.  She has got to go.  Shanae trashed the trophy HE awarded…she’s got to go. 

And I don’t think it is exactly a Luke P situation.  He demanded.  She assumed if she was truly number one, he wouldn’t declare love for others or have s3x with them.  

I dont think Clayton was pretending to be anything... he has done nothing but non-stop kissing and fondling of (almost) every woman in touching distance from the start of the season. He hasn´t talked much about getting married or anything deep like that. There have been bachelors pretending to be really morally superior, like Matt and that is much worse imo. Clayton is a doofus but he isn´t a bad guy. I think he thought he was doing a good thing telling them he loved them before sleeping with them. He makes a lot of wrong decisions and should never listen to his gut, or rather, he should always do the opposite of what his gut is telling him. No matter how hard I try I cannot imagine Clayton actually gaslighting anyone (he´s not smart enough) or manipulating things during an argument. He seemed the normal kind of angry and disappointed with the situation. And the context is that it´s happening on a tv show that has this ridiculous formula. He deserves to feel bad but I don´t think he was abusive at all.

Edited March 13, 2022 by halkatla

[DEL901]

48 minutes ago, halkatla said:

I dont think Clayton was pretending to be anything... he has done nothing but non-stop kissing and fondling of (almost) every woman in touching distance from the start of the season. He hasn´t talked much about getting married or anything deep like that. There have been bachelors pretending to be really morally superior, like Matt and that is much worse imo. Clayton is a doofus but he isn´t a bad guy. I think he thought he was doing a good thing telling them he loved them before sleeping with them. He makes a lot of wrong decisions and should never listen to his gut, or rather, he should always do the opposite of what his gut is telling him. No matter how hard I try I cannot imagine Clayton actually gaslighting anyone (he´s not smart enough) or manipulating things during an argument. He seemed the normal kind of angry and disappointed with the situation. And the context is that it´s happening on a tv show that has this ridiculous formula. He deserves to feel bad but I don´t think he was abusive at all.

Interesting, but I do disagree with “he’s not smart enough).  He is working on an MBA so he is book smart at least and he is in medical sales so be knows how to influence people. His EQ is pretty low, but I think his IQ is high enough that he knew what he needed to do to get all the women into bed.  He just never anticipated Susie asking him point blank about having sex with and his feelings for the others and got flustered. 

[nlkm9]

Can you imagine seeing clayton yell “ i love you too rachel” and you are gabby or susie or even serene?

every season they reach for more “ vulnerability” and more declarations of love and soon women will each have their own rooms and they wont even need fantasy suites. Oh thats right - we have bachelor in paradise!!

[DEL901]

16 minutes ago, nlkm9 said:

Can you imagine seeing clayton yell “ i love you too rachel” and you are gabby or susie or even serene?

As crazy as the next Rose Ceremony looks, I’ll sure Gabby and Rachel didn’t know the full extent of what happened until they watched last Tuesday’s episode.  ATFR will be epic. 
 

eta…and them watching him tell Susie that he loved and slept with Rachel and Gabby but he loves her more.  

Edited March 13, 2022 by DEL901

[halkatla]

38 minutes ago, DEL901 said:

Interesting, but I do disagree with “he’s not smart enough).  He is working on an MBA so he is book smart at least and he is in medical sales so be knows how to influence people. His EQ is pretty low, but I think his IQ is high enough that he knew what he needed to do to get all the women into bed.  He just never anticipated Susie asking him point blank about having sex with and his feelings for the others and got flustered. 

I dont mean his intelligent that way. He´s probably average book-smart and he often does better at small conversations than other bachelors, and I think he is way above average at getting women into bed. But he makes crazy decisions and seems to have very little intuition. I think he´s incapable of manipulations, at least from everything we´ve seen so far on the show. He was shocked when Susie confronted him because he hadn´t actually thought that far. He doesn´t think things through at all, or how they´ll effect both him and others. I just can´t help but to feel a bit sorry for him, if he had been guided better through the process he could have had an uplifting easy-going season (despite all the ill timed make-out sessions).

[Starlight925]

Clayton is a bad breaker-upper:

In the (paraphrased) words of Elaine Benes, he says the mean things you don't mean, but he means them:

 

Edited March 13, 2022 by Starlight925

[Mswldflwr]

How he can think that Susie would be good with the fact that he would have successfully bedded two women literally back to back right before he was expecting her to be number three in as many days totally befuddles me.  I mean, there wasn't even a whole day between dates; he barely had time to shower.  Can you imagine telling your grandchildren how Grandma's such a swell gal.  I slept with two women within just a couple of days of asking her to be my forever and she was totally cool with that.  But I loved her the most, so Grandma won.  I don't know how he is going to weather the storm on this one even in his personal or professional life.  He seems completely unaware that there was anything wrong with his behavior.  It would be one thing if he simply said to Susie, I'm so sorry you feel that way, but I did what I did for whatever reason.  If you can't live with that, I get it.  But for him to tell her it's her fault for his behavior because she didn't tell him not to behave that way is just whack.  You would think common sense alone would be enough for him to simply know that his "special" girl would not care to be third in his Hat Trick.  

 

Edited March 13, 2022 by Mswldflwr

[TomGirl]

4 minutes ago, Mswldflwr said:

he would have successfully bedded two women literally back to back

Probably not anatomically possible, but if anyone could pull it off, it would be Clayton!

[dirtypop90]

15 hours ago, halkatla said:

I dont think Clayton was pretending to be anything... he has done nothing but non-stop kissing and fondling of (almost) every woman in touching distance from the start of the season. He hasn´t talked much about getting married or anything deep like that. There have been bachelors pretending to be really morally superior, like Matt and that is much worse imo.

Matt was in the best of the bunch we’ve had as far as his treatment of the women. I didn’t like his choice but He didn’t sleep with anyone in the fantasy suites or tell the other two he loved them. He also let F2 go early. He is also still with F1. And I wouldn’t be shocked if he married her. That would put him in the lonely category of bachelors who married their final choice with Sean Lowe.

[Back Atcha]

11 hours ago, TomGirl said:

Probably not anatomically possible, but if anyone could pull it off, it would be Clayton!

Probably not anatomically possible, but if anyone could  would attempt to pull it off, it would be Clayton!

[Back Atcha]

11 hours ago, Mswldflwr said:

It would be one thing if he simply said to Susie, I'm so sorry you feel that way, but I did what I did for whatever reason.  If you can't live with that, I get it.  But for him to tell her it's her fault for his behavior because she didn't tell him not to behave that way is just whack.  You would think common sense alone would be enough for him to simply know that his "special" girl would not care to be third in his Hat Trick.  

 

All excellent!

For "whatever reason" is probably that he was letting various producers/production assistants push/lead him around by his favorite body part.  As for "common sense," I think that's one of the qualities sorely lacking in most of these showbiz wannabees.

 

[MMLEsq]

On 3/10/2022 at 6:37 PM, Hip-to-be-Square said:

Did anyone catch how Clayton begged Suzie to talk it over and that they still had "seven hours" to talk things out? I'd rather wait in the DMV line without a number or try to wedge my ass into my high school low rise jeans.  I don't want to talk to anyone for seven hours! 

The first time my husband and I spoke on the phone, way back in 1999, we spoke for seven hours.  🙂  (We're still together -- our 20th wedding anniversary is this summer -- when you know, you know. ) 

On 3/10/2022 at 5:56 PM, DA6988 said:

...I do believe Susie should have shared in advance what was / wasn’t a deal breaker...

 

Lots of people seemed to share this view; picked this one to quote just because (not singling you out, DA6988).  I'm reminded of the George Constanza quote on Seinfeld, "Was that wrong? Should I not have done that? I tell you, I gotta plead ignorance on this thing, because if anyone had said anything to me at all when I first started here that that sort of thing is frowned upon... you know, cause I've worked in a lot of offices, and I tell you, people do that all the time." 

Perhaps Susie thought that it was something so obvious (to her) that she didn't need to say it?  I can't imagine having a conversation with someone that, in theory, you're getting engaged to in a matter of weeks where you have to clarify, "by the way, just in case you're wondering, I'm not okay with you having sex with other people right before proposing to me."  (Not surprisingly, I'm also very unforgiving of people who think they should get a pass for things that happen at their bachelor/bachelorette parties.)  

On 3/10/2022 at 8:18 PM, DA6988 said:

I suspect the I love you’s to everyone are more of a dealbreaker for everyone else than the sex itself. But again that’s something that’s happened a lot recently - so the inability to maneuver all this in a better way to me falls on Clayton’s own awfulness then all the specific actions if that makes sense. 

I guess I'm in the minority.  People say "I love you" all the time to friends, etc.  Feeling some sort of love for people in this situation wouldn't bother me as much; acting on it (or, worse, saying those words just to be able to act on it) would bother me.

On 3/10/2022 at 8:55 PM, Sweet-tea said:

I think his "I'm in love with three women" is code for "I want to have sex with all three of them, without any flack." 

Agreed....  I think he thought that it somehow made it better.

 

 

On 3/11/2022 at 5:23 PM, chocolatine said:

Even if Clayton was manipulated, it was still his choice to tell all three women that he loved them, sleep with Rachel and Gabby, and then freak out and blame everything on Susie when she balked at his actions. Nobody held a gun to his head to make him do all those things.

Exactly, if you're so easily manipulated that you think your best course of action is to sleep with three different women in three days, then propose to one of them days later, you're clearly not ready to get engaged, let alone married. 

I understand that the point of the show has shifted so that now it's more about your standing in Bachelor Nation, social media followings, etc. and less about falling in love and getting married.  What I find it hard to understand is how these Bachelors/Bachelorettes can meet the families and, with a straight face, claim to have real feelings, knowing that it's somewhat nonsense.  Personally, I'd feel terrible; but I guess it's all part of the "game."

[TomGirl]

5 hours ago, MMLEsq said:

I'm reminded of the George Constanza quote on Seinfeld, "Was that wrong? Should I not have done that? I tell you, I gotta plead ignorance on this thing, because if anyone had said anything to me at all when I first started here that that sort of thing is frowned upon... you know, cause I've worked in a lot of offices, and I tell you, people do that all the time." 

I thought of exactly the same Seinfeld show when I was reading about all this.  One of my all-time favorite episodes!

[TomGirl]

You know what really bugs me?  Clayton’s rationale that he HAD to test drive all the women because sex (intimacy, chemistry, physical connection, blah blah blah) is SO important in a relationship.  I think most people know very well whether they’re physical attracted to someone else without having to have intercourse to “prove” it.  Clayton certainly knew he had “chemistry” with all the women, god knows he talked about it all the time! Sheesh!

[Mswldflwr]

I just read that Gaby is actually Dean's ex and apparently Caelyn also has a good friend on the show (didn't say who, though).  Good Lord.  They sure keep it all in the family, huh?

 

[DEL901]

2 minutes ago, Mswldflwr said:

I just read that Gaby is actually Dean's ex and apparently Caelyn also has a good friend on the show (didn't say who, though).  Good Lord.  They sure keep it all in the family, huh?

 

The Bachelor Family is like the mob, once you are in you can never leave!

[DA6988]

@MMLEsq I actually agree with you that I couldn’t imagine having to have that conversation. But that’s also why I wouldn’t go on the Bachelor. I think that if you’re going to be on this type of show you have to be aware of the need to over communicate - especially because not everyone feels the same about this type of stuff and there’s probably some assumptions leads make about people who join the show and whether they’re right or wrong a conversation could help clarify. The reality is that as much as Susie couldn’t imagine having to tell someone she could get engaged to to not have sex a couple of weeks before they get engaged I’d imagine in the real world she wouldn’t also be telling them not to go on dates and make out with other people on the timeframe either. It’s pretty clear that for a lot of people the engagement is more akin to choosing to go exclusive since up until that point it’s literally about dating multiple people. 

Also, I think whether on the Bachelor or in real life people have very different perspectives on love and sex. At the very least, it might be useful to get on the same page about that stuff  in any case. Some people might not think sex is a big deal and others might not think the words I love you are a big deal and anything in between. 

[Andyourlittledog2]

45 minutes ago, DA6988 said:

for a lot of people the engagement is more akin to choosing to go exclusive since up until that point it’s literally about dating multiple people. 

Wait. What? I'm pretty sure that the engagement is not when one decides to become exclusive. That usually happens way before you decide to get married, unless you're (general you, not you you) the marry in Vegas on the third date kind of couple.  I don't know anyone who would accept a marriage proposal from someone who just slept with some other woman the previous night IRL. I guess if all you are after is getting followers on Instagram then perhaps you wouldn't care what either of you did but if you really were seeking a meaningful relationship to evolve from this I think it would be a problem. Not telling him ahead of time I think was a good idea because you want to know what he really is, not what he does simply for the 'game' of Bachelor. She found out and it was a deal breaker for her. She didn't want to be with someone who would think that was okay and this let her find out if he was that kind of person.  She did not expect him to turn on her with 6'+ of fury, though.

I don't think that gaslighting someone has to involve evil laughter and the twirling of one's mustache.  In this instance I think Clayton learned long ago to offer an offense as the best defense and throws up a bunch of nonsense about he is the victim here and whoever else involved is the one who is to blame and it goes downhill from there. I think the result is gaslighting the innocent/wounded person and making himself the innocent party in the argument. Listen to Susie the whole conversation: she keeps looking uncertain and saying she is very confused. That's because Clayton is gaslighting her, the intention is to confuse her and get her on her back foot, wondering what she did wrong and trying to make her believe that she was the one who did something wrong. Even in the limo she looked confused, trying to make sense of the conversation she just had with a man who just minutes before declared his love for her. That's because she was being gaslighted.

 

[Stephanee]

On 3/8/2022 at 7:51 PM, Madding crowd said:

Why does Gabby always wear jackets hanging off her arms. It drives me crazy. For no logical reason, Rachel is my favorite. 

Holy crap, YES!! Drives me crazy!

[DA6988]

@Andyourlittledog2 I meant on this show. Since they they are literally dating multiple people until the day they get engaged and choice one…that’s literally the point they’re choosing to go monogamous. Plenty of leads have slept with multiple people and then picked one. Plenty of leads have also not slept with anyone but were still dating and kissing multiple people until the day they get engaged. 

I’ll agree to disagree on the actual conversation they had but wanted to clarify the above because I definitely don’t think that in real life an engagement is when you choose to go monogamous. That’s just the premise of this specific show. 

 

[Andyourlittledog2]

15 minutes ago, DA6988 said:

I’ll agree to disagree on the actual conversation they had but wanted to clarify the above because I definitely don’t think that in real life an engagement is when you choose to go monogamous. That’s just the premise of this specific show. 

 

Okay that makes more sense then.  🙂

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 3/9/2022 at 5:13 PM, Adeejay said:

Unpopular opinion.  It kills me when folks go on the show and then get all high and mighty about the fantasy suite or have a startling realization that the lead is dating more than one person.  It's part of the premise of the show. If you feel that way, don't sign up.  

Thank you. It really feels like an attitude of "I'm allowed to participate in this show in the way I see fit.  You're not."

Edited March 16, 2022 by Ms Blue Jay

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 3/10/2022 at 7:35 PM, EllenB said:

Most Bachelors are at least somewhat skeevy when it comes to the fantasy suites (except Sean, who I'm starting to appreciate more and more each season). It's the way Clay!-un turned on her with so much anger when he found out she didn't want to be #3 in the sack. Why should she believe his "I love you the best" when she has no idea if he said the same thing to the others - especially when he said it was just one, then admitted he'd had sex with AND said the big ol' L word to both of them. I'd have slugged him when he got snippy about it.

Yes, I do understand this.  Clayton made so many mistakes with his words and his actions.  Honestly, it's becoming too many to count and it's so numerous and hazy that it makes my head spin.