DA6988

@Andyourlittledog2 I meant on this show. Since they they are literally dating multiple people until the day they get engaged and choice one…that’s literally the point they’re choosing to go monogamous. Plenty of leads have slept with multiple people and then picked one. Plenty of leads have also not slept with anyone but were still dating and kissing multiple people until the day they get engaged. I’ll agree to disagree on the actual conversation they had but wanted to clarify the above because I definitely don’t think that in real life an engagement is when you choose to go monogamous. That’s just the premise of this specific show.

@MMLEsq I actually agree with you that I couldn’t imagine having to have that conversation. But that’s also why I wouldn’t go on the Bachelor. I think that if you’re going to be on this type of show you have to be aware of the need to over communicate - especially because not everyone feels the same about this type of stuff and there’s probably some assumptions leads make about people who join the show and whether they’re right or wrong a conversation could help clarify. The reality is that as much as Susie couldn’t imagine having to tell someone she could get engaged to to not have sex a couple of weeks before they get engaged I’d imagine in the real world she wouldn’t also be telling them not to go on dates and make out with other people on the timeframe either. It’s pretty clear that for a lot of people the engagement is more akin to choosing to go exclusive since up until that point it’s literally about dating multiple people. Also, I think whether on the Bachelor or in real life people have very different perspectives on love and sex. At the very least, it might be useful to get on the same page about that stuff in any case. Some people might not think sex is a big deal and others might not think the words I love you are a big deal and anything in between.

I think that towards the end there Susie did say she was starting to think she could get past it but now it seemed like he was done with her? I might have misheard but that’s one of the things that annoyed me cause it seemed like she tried to make it seem like he was ending it with her when she was the one who initially.m said she couldn’t move past it.

Totally agree he was immature and the whole I loved you the most was awful! I guess I’ve always seen the bachelors and bachelorettes as skeevy re: fantasy suites in that the likelihood is people are sleeping with more than one person (and in some seasons the sex has happened even before fantasy suites) and don’t think Clayton was any worse than others (before he got all snippy with Susie). His reaction wasn’t great but I can’t buy that anyone would go on this show with this as a deal breaker given the nature of the show. If it is then you have to communicate it because the show is designed to essentially be non Monogamous until the engagement which is weird as hell. I suspect the I love you’s to everyone are more of a dealbreaker for everyone else than the sex itself. But again that’s something that’s happened a lot recently - so the inability to maneuver all this in a better way to me falls on Clayton’s own awfulness then all the specific actions if that makes sense.

I just watched this today and I feel so conflicted. I think Clayton was quite rude to Susie at the end but I don’t know that I believe he was super abusive. I think what is throwing me is that I do believe Susie should have shared in advance what was / wasn’t a deal breaker. It seemed like he had a conversation with her about exploring other relationships and thought they were on the same page and they clearly weren’t - he should have asked more questions, been smarter about his actions and how they would come across AND Susie should have clearly communicated how she get about sex. I don’t like how Clayton spoke to her but I think from his perspective he was hearing something was a deal breaker, that she couldn’t get past it, and then a bit of back pedaling…and that struck me as someone who wanted to turn it into he wants me to go home and he’s done with versus the initial situation which was that SHE couldn’t get past it and couldn’t be with him. I think because it made a better edit for her. At the same time, Clayton is both a people pleaser and not too smart clearly. He let the producers get in his head and he seems to have used the love card to have sex. He flipped a switch with Susie for sure but I can sort of understand how he was confused by her saying she couldn’t move past it then wanting to continue to talk about it. I think he spoke really defensively and should have just said “I didn’t realize you felt that way but since you do, I understand why we can’t continue” and just end it there. I wonder if in that moment he was wondering if it was all an act and that made him react worse. At a certain point I was kind of with him in that there’s nothing else to talk about if you say you can’t get past it (but think that was a short sighted reaction). In any case, I think at the end of the day if you’re on the show I think you have to be prepared to lay all your cards on the table and the reality of dating multiple people. In theory, you wouldn’t be dating and potentially having sex with multiple people before proposing. In practice that is the Bachelor though and so you have to be as upfront as possible about your own expectations (on both sides, I thought the same thing when Katie and Greg were going through their whole thing - I think kayie should have told them up front she wasn’t going to say I love you to anyone). I think Susie would make a fine bachelorette if she gets it (despite my thought that’s what she was angling for which is fine). As I would have done with Greg, I’ll be side eying it and paying attention to whether she’s hypocritical during the process given how they couldn’t handle being a contestant but it is what it is. I also hope to not see Clayton ever again - again I don’t think he’s a villain I just think he’s not too bright and doesn’t have enough sense of self to engage in this process without getting distracted, letting the producers mess with him etc.

While this is true, Serene mentioned her mom was a single mom. I lived with my grandparents due to a similar situation until I was 6 and losing my grandmother three years ago when I was 30 sometimes still hits hard. Some days the feeling of grief still feels like too much and it’s three years later. I will randomly start crying. I imagine depending on their relationship and the affect losing her had on her other relationships with family members it could have been really tough. I also got the sense that it was the compounded loss of her grandmother and then her cousin which is as tough for her.

I agree that Matt has a lot of work to do to on himself because I believe he is still very much affected by his family situation. Whether you believe that Matt or Rachael have more work to do probably depends where on the spectrum you fall in terms of Rachael’s actions. That said, there were other aspects beyond the photo - I think they didn’t bring it into the situation because the photo is very clearly evidence whereas the other things were less ‘provable.’ We also don’t know what was said or not said in the conversations between Matt and Rachael to know whether other things really triggered him into making a decision. For all we know, they had multiple conversations and she might have said somethings that shined a light on other issues and he finally decided it wasn’t the type of relationship he wanted to be in. I’m in an interracial relationship and it can be deeply exhausted at times with my partner. And he’s never done/said anything on the level of Rachael. Ultimately we don’t know what those conversations looked like (and I think that’s fine - they can keep it private). I think multiple things can be true here - they both have work to do, they or he wasn’t actually that “in love”, and their breakup probably wasn’t just because of the photo and the photo/rumors probably made things harder than either of them wanted it to be.

The cognitive dissonance and false equalities here is astounding here. Equality is man made so how do you explain the fact that many people of color are not tested equally? Oh wait - if they just pretend it’s not true then it’s not real. It’s also telling that black people asking for representation is being equated to “inferior athletes asking to also be represented on professional sports team.” So in this argument black people are inferior and/or asking for something that they don’t deserve? This is the equivalent of Black people making a point about their lives mattering and people arguing that all lives matter like the WHOLE point isn’t that Black people are not treated like their lives matter as evidenced by police brutality data. I also think people act like calling for more representation means that it needs to be 50\50. We’ve had 25 bachelors - only one of them had been black and BECAUSE of that there’s so much pressure on him. Maybe if it wasn’t a unicorn scenario it would matter less. Please don’t oversimplify this. This isn’t just dressing a a southern belle. This was doing so at a party on a plantation intended to simulate that entire life which INCLUDEs the idea of slavery and that Black people were inferior. This is about that party being planned by a fraternity that has been banned due to their racist ‘traditional’ songs. This about the other social media content related to this topic which as a whole form a picture of Rachael at best ignorant and racially insensitive and holding unconscious biases. Rachael HERSELF accepts that.

Agree with this and interestingly enough this seems to be exactly what Rachel is doing. This was pointed out to her and she’s accepting that criticism. Fans of her or fans of the show who still see nothing wrong with the glorification of that era who don’t see how it glosses over racism or sexism are the ones who can’t seem to accept the criticism (or apparently think that we shouldn’t talk about things like this at all otherwise the person isn’t being treated fairly). I don’t even understand how potato famine = slavery in ANY analogy.

It’s not Matt’s responsibility to stay with someone to teach them. Every black person (or any person of color) has different boundaries and it’s perfectly okay for Matt’s to be what he articulated about the dealbreaker being that she still didn’t get what the problem was until he literally spelled it out. It’s fine that that made him realize that he wasn’t down to keep going. Basically, most of these relationships crash and burn. Odds are they weren’t that into each other to begin with and then ran into this issue and he called it quits. Which he is within his rights to do. I don’t think he’s any worse than any other contestant whose ended it with their F1 five minutes after the ‘proposal.’ And you’re argument has one big flaw - Rachael not understanding how her actions (despite not intending yo be malicious or hurt others) do affect her relationship with Matt. She was unable to make connections with some pretty basic things re to race but thinks she’s ready to be in a relationship with a black men? She didn’t once make those connections after the fact or during the season. Which to me, means she hasn’t meaningfully engaged in any discussions about race since this incident happened and/or held problematic beliefs. If it’s the former then I question who she surrounds herself with because in today’s climate you essentially have to NOT want engage in those discussions to avoid them. If it’s the latter I question she surrounds herself with because they’re probably problematic themselves and she’s okay with that. Basically, while I’m glad from her words on the episode etc. that she seems to be learning now if I were in Matt’s shoes I would most definitely question whether this person is ready to be in a relationship with me and whether I was ready to be their “teacher” versus their partner. Because Rachael needs to engage in a lot of unlearning and their entire relationship would end up being about that. And once again, it’s okay if Matt didn’t want to do that. I with him not thinking twice about it. It seemed he did think twice about it and was triggered by having to pretty much explain the basics. He also seems like someone who struggles with his own black identity and comfort levels - his conversation with Emmanuel for example made me realize that due to editing and never getting to hear him talk about it that I actually have NO idea who Matt is. He spent the entire season walking on eggshells because he’s black and he knew he’d already be perceived a certain way. I honestly can’t fault him for not wanting to be in the position of dealing with all of that + Rachael all the time after that experience. Again, I think at the end of the day the fact that I don’t think he was ever Sean with Catherine levels in love with Rachael plays a role. This might have gotten dragged out like Becca and Garrett (and we saw how that turned out). I also find it fascinating that even when Rachael herself is saying things like “Just because it’s normal or I didn’t make the connection doesn’t mean it’s okay” people are bending over backward to defend her making the same points she said are not a defense.

I think the above is spot on. I personally feel that a lot of people get hung up on the word “racism” or “racist” and forget to think about the levels. It’s not always “So and so must be in the KKK and the most racist person that ever lived.” Sometimes it’s about analyzing the prejudices, biases (unconscious or otherwise), stereotypes we hold without realizing why they’re stereotypes or detrimental, acknowledging privilege, the context within which certain actions were appropriate and why they shouldn’t be glorified. There are so many layers and because people don’t realize all of that there’s this jump to getting defensive because any calling out of wrongful actions gets met with “this isn’t the most racist thing so why is it such a big deal.” As an Afro-Latina I have done and said things that were offensive and myself have had to analyze where that came from and learn. But I wouldn’t have ever gotten there if everyone let it slide and didn’t hold me accountable. It’s like someone articulate similar lines of reasons within sexual harassment. Simply because rape doesn’t occur doesn’t mean that treating someone differently because of their sex isn’t wrong. People should be held accountable. Do I think that Chris H. is the most racist person ever in 2021 because of his actions? No. Do I think that he should be held more accountable then getting a timeout for just a few weeks before business as usual? Yes. Is he likely the only issue with the Bachelor production? Probably not but as the face of the show and an EP this is part of what he signed up for. His life as a fairly rich white men is hardly ruined because he’s being asked to take a seat for a minute and hopefully do something thinking during that time. Especially since he likely earns money simply out off of the production as an EP even when he’s not hosting. And I wouldn’t be surprised for a minute if he lays low during the bachelorette production, maybe showcases work he’s doing to understand these issues more, and pops back up next year ready to go with another season. And even if it doesn’t he’s still going to be okay because he has made millions and 100% will continue to make money off the production and go on to other things. I also agree with the person who asked if forgiveness always has to equal going back to normalcy immediately.

It’s pretty clear what most fans of the show think at this point. At the end of the day this isn’t just about Rachael having suspect photos and behavior previously. This is about this show - which waited 25 seasons before deciding a black bachelor was worth it because of “reasons” messing up the whole season. These producers went out of their way to cast someone who they didn’t vet (they found Rachael not the other way around). They cut conversations that would have allowed people to understand Matt’s life and journey (sharing his own story about being treated differently with different hairstyles). They gave the only slightly platable white girl this season a whole storyline (while we still don’t know that much about the other women that went this far) and she’s very likely going to be named bachelorette next despite the fact that it’s not common for someone who goes home at the point she did to be named bachelorette (probably because the actual top group of ladies were primarily women of color and god forbid they cast another one so soon after Tayshia and Matt). The fact that Rachel Lindsay is getting death threats and had to take Instagram because Chris Harrison went on her show and acted a fool is pretty indicative of the issue. And I actually agree with the basic sentiment that Chris H. isn’t blatantly racist and I don’t think he needs to be “canceled.” I do think that people crying out about how unfair it is for him to take a temporary step back which he could use to do some work and maybe really understand why his words were problematic is why things don’t change. The bare minimum of consequences for actions is always “too much.” I know Katie hasn’t been named yet but if she is there’s no doubt in my mind the producers entire attitude toward race plays a role. And the majority of bachelor nation is okay with all the problematic behaviors. I’m super curious to hear from Matt at the end of all this since it seems like him and Rachael aren’t even together after all this anyways.