S01.E01: Never the New

[meowmommy]

Didn't know what to expect, other than costume and set porn, and those did not disappoint.  Was the show perfect?  No, of course not.  Julian Fellowes does not know how to set up a story or how to write with nuance.  And the accents were all over the place.  Everything from the right side of the pond to the one servant offering his best cringeworthy Brooklynese. 

But did I like it?  Yup.  I'll be back.  I almost wish it wasn't a miniseries.  Then maybe they wouldn't force so many story lines to move so quickly.  Take the time to set them up properly.  Not everyone knows the history of the Gilded Age or even the Buccaneers.  Show us some of the back story of Bertha and not just some breathless exposition.  I guess her husband is supposed to be a stand-in for the Robber Barons?

What was the point of the Pennsylvania lawyer (banker?) with the hots for Marian, only to be told not to write to her?  Is he coming back in some form?

[hatchetgirl]

On 1/30/2022 at 4:28 AM, Pestilentia said:

Well, to be fair it was the pilot episode and I try to give a series at least two or three eps to find their footing.

You're right. That's only fair and I will give it another try or two, even if just for the costume and set candy!!! :)

[Yeah No]

On 1/25/2022 at 10:08 PM, Brian Cronin said:

On 1/25/2022 at 5:15 PM, Haleth said:

Interesting that the Russells used Stanford White as their architect.  I wonder if the show will cover that scandal.  (We're a few years away from it in the current timeline of the show.) 

Sadly, it's like 20 years off. 

I thought that too, but I'm still hoping they utilize Stanford White for some romantic intrigue during the series given his reputation.  Hopefully not with teenage girls, though.  I'd be grateful if they sanitized it somewhat.

Being a native New Yorker with an interest in NY history and family roots there going back to the 1830s, plus a husband who could be a historian of both NYC history and architecture, we are both seriously interested in this series.  We tried to get into Downton Abbey as it also had all the bells and whistles for us but somehow never could.  But this has already peaked our interest because of our personal connection to the setting and period but also because Christine Baranski, is already a standout.  We loved her as Leonard's mother in BBT.  We are tolerating Cynthia Nixon because we aren't happy with her role in wrecking her character in the SATC reboot, but at least here she seems to be utilized well.

I agree with what has been said above about the streets being way too clean.  In spite of this being a newly developed area they could have done more to make it realistic.  Everything is too perfect, even the costumes, which are beautiful but everyone looks way more clean and crisp than they would have, even the rich people.  The hats are amazing too!

Also, it doesn't hurt that the Russell name is being used for one of the fictional families since that name figured into my family history in Massachusetts, then NYC, and although they were certainly upper middle class they were nowhere near as rich as shown here.  My dad would have gotten a kick out of that since he was given the first name Russell in honor of his family history.  He had a grand uncle with that last name who was a real estate agent handling business properties in Manhattan at the time of this series.

It's too soon for me to comment on the rest of the acting and plots yet.  They threw a lot at us in this episode and I think it was a little clunky in parts, but I'm hopeful that some of that will get ironed out in the coming weeks.

[peachmangosteen]

15 hours ago, vavera4ka said:

Came in for Baranski, but then I saw Blake Ritson. 

Definitely staying 😃

I wasn't sure who that was so I googled him and yowsa. He is so completely unattractive in this show but hot as hell in real life lol.

[vavera4ka]

7 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I wasn't sure who that was so I googled him and yowsa. He is so completely unattractive in this show but hot as hell in real life lol.

I know him from Da Vinci's Demons. One of the most... delicious lol villains

[BooBear]

I just saw this on an HBO preview. I didn't like it.  Weirdly I thought it was opposite of all the reviews. I thought Meryl's daughter was just fine. But it was everyone else that was stilted and stiff. In fact I would say the dialog was horrible. With complete modern talk. 

Carrie Coon is an amazing actress but she was horrible here. She seemed to be yelling her lines as if she were in a play. Perhaps it is the massive set. 

Then, am I seriously supposed to get invested in Carrie's character obsessing on being liked? I mean that is it? That is the plot? Wow.. if there had been some background they explored as reason for a deep need to be part of the upper crust ok, but, am I seriously supposed to care about this "conflict". 

I decided not to sign up for HBO based on the first episode. Perhaps I will check in to see if it gets better. 

 

 

[sempervivum]

This is belated, but thinking about the situations of these women, what did I not understand?

We are told that Marian basically is left homeless because her father spent all the family money, which seemed to be news to all concerned. Yet we also hear that Agnes, 30-40 years earlier, had to marry the odious Van Rhijn because her brother (Marian's father) had spent all the family money?

[izabella]

Yep, Marian's father was a spendthrift who spent all the family money, then sold the house out under them all, spent that money, and then took off, leaving Agnes and Ada homeless and penniless so Agnes had to marry Van Rijn.  Presumably, he went on to earn enough money somehow to keep a roof over his head, married someone, raised a child, and then leave her homeless and penniless once all his debts were paid.   Agnes was not at all surprised that he left his daughter penniless - she guessed it before Marian said anything.

Since they have given us absolutely nothing about Marian's background, we really have no idea what dear ole dad was doing during those 30-40 years to earn money to stay afloat, albeit in debt.

Edited February 6, 2022 by izabella

[MissLucas]

From the sounds of it Henry squandered away the whole inheritance before Ada and Agnes could claim their share (if they even had one). Ada said they were dependent on him and their father had did young so Henry was probably older and should have made sure his sisters were provided for. Which he didn't.

Marian seems to have grown up with some affluency and was even expecting some inheritance (and was let down by Henry - true to his style to the grave). Since nothing we know about Henry indicates business acumen I'd say he somehow managed to marry money.

Edited February 6, 2022 by MissLucas

[PRgal]

39 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

From the sounds of it Henry squandered away the whole inheritance before Ada and Agnes could claim their share (if they even had one). Ada said they were dependent on him and their father had did young so Henry was probably older and should have made sure his sisters were provided for. Which he didn't.

Marian seems to have grown up with some affluency and was even expecting some inheritance (and was let down by Henry - true to his style to the grave). Since nothing we know about Henry indicates business acumen I'd say he somehow managed to marry money.

Wouldn't Agnes have had a dowry of some sort when she married?  

[MissLucas]

 

29 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Wouldn't Agnes have had a dowry of some sort when she married?  

Possibly, but from the sound of it it wasn't particularly impressive. And even if it was decent she would not have had access to it unless she got married. And after marriage that money sometimes was out of reach for various reasons.  There's lots of legal details here that I have no idea about.

My guess is that Agnes and Ada's financial situation (pre-marriage) was similar to what we know of 'poor' Austen heroines. They were not starving but the little money/income they had was not enough to live on - so marriage was the best way out, or almost as Ada and Agnes would have had more options to make a living than the Bennet sisters and their ilk had (governess, spinster aunt).

I would like to know where Ada's money is coming from. 

[izabella]

Ada's money is coming from Agnes.

1 hour ago, PRgal said:

Wouldn't Agnes have had a dowry of some sort when she married?  

Not if her brother spent all the family money and then sold their house and spent that money, too. 

[MissLucas]

7 minutes ago, izabella said:

Ada's money is coming from Agnes.

Yes, but it sounded like she's got more than a bit of pin money on the side. Maybe she made some secret clever investments for example in Russell's company? Agnes' head would explode 🤣

[izabella]

I suspect Ada doesn't spend a lot from her allowance and saves it up for a rainy day.  It's not like she's husband hunting, so she probably doesn't buy or need all the dresses and hats and shoes Agnes bought for Marian's hunt. 

Agnes gave Marian an allowance, too.  We'll see if she turns out like her dad and spends it all, or more like Agnes and Ada and money doesn't flow through her hands like water.

[Scarlett45]

On 1/26/2022 at 2:45 PM, Roseanna said:

Let's wait and see before making conclusions.

After Agnes married a man rich enough to provide her wife and sister-in-law, it wasn't *necessary* for Ada to marry - unless she fell in love in a man who was free, had a suitable background and enough money and who proposed to her (many conditions indeed!). Or maybe she loved her sister more than any man - with Ada in the same house, Agnes had no need be alone with her husband (except in the bedroom, horrible enough).

In that age there were at least one unmarried female relative in every family. Sometimes a man must provide not only for his wife and young children, but his grown-up daughters and unmarried sisters, maybe even his widowed mother and unmarried aunts and cousins...  

 

I’m guessing there are several reasons. Likely she never met a man who met her conditions and there could’ve been a big fear of marrying a man like her brother in law. From the dialogue he was likely physically/sexually abusive towards Agnes.

 

On 1/26/2022 at 11:02 AM, AntFTW said:

Also, I meant to say in my previous that I appreciate any appearance by the Queen Audra McDonald. I hope we see more of her.

She is a queen! I want to see more of her too. 

 

On 1/26/2022 at 10:52 AM, PRgal said:

Is Peggy supposed to represent the emerging Black middle class?  She seems to be part of the “not this nor that” group of people, not different from (white) women who become governesses (I wrote a paper on that which evolved to a thesis/research project in graduate school) where they, coming from privileged families and were well-educated, still had to work.  However, they were resented by the household help and weren’t part of the family’s social circle either. 

I think so. I am quite interested in Peggy’s story. I am thinking her father sent her to be educated so that she could make a good marriage** but she wants to be a writer, and her father ruined a job opportunity for her because he would like to see her married well. She’s pissed, and her Mom fells stuck in the middle. 

I would like a few more black characters for Peggy to interact with, she cannot always speak freely with Marion about everything. 

 

On 1/28/2022 at 2:39 AM, Roseanna said:

You make good points. 

However, one can't force ones feelings. And I think that there are reasons why Marian feels differently towards Peggy who was a total stranger and had little money and still helped voluntarily. That loan is now paid (thanks to Agnes), so they are are equal (irl they weren't as Peggy is a servant). Instead, it's not easy to be totally dependent on a rich aunt who initially was (as we were shown) reluctant to take her niece to her house and has so far only melted a little. And because Marian father has painted her sisters black, she is only slowly learning that they aren't but her father acted wrongly towards them. 

Regarding your other points, blame Fellowes. He should have invented a plot where Marian resisted her aunt for better reasons. 

I also think Marion is still a bit in shock. I don’t know when her mother died, but it’s likely it’s just been her and her dad for a long time. No matter what a gambler/poor money manager he was, he was her father and she loved him/was proud of him (remember how she reminded the young attorney that he was a General)- but he left her PENNILESS with just her clothes and the furniture to sell for her train ticket.
 

Being his only child he likely indulged her and gave her more freedom (intellectually and socially) than other women in her social circle. Being under the Aunt’s roof is very different, also, she now knows he did the same thing to them- that has to hurt. 
 

I can see her feeling gratitude for not being on the street, getting to know the Aunts as people, mourning her father but still wanting her autonomy. 

**Also for “just in case”- I was explaining to a white friend of mine, that traditionally if a black family could afford it, both sons and daughters were educated. Not that girls weren’t expected to get married in this time (and married well) but wealthy/educated black persons could never forget they were black, so there was always a “just in case” if at all possible. 
 

 

[Scarlett45]

10 hours ago, MissLucas said:

From the sounds of it Henry squandered away the whole inheritance before Ada and Agnes could claim their share (if they even had one). Ada said they were dependent on him and their father had did young so Henry was probably older and should have made sure his sisters were provided for. Which he didn't.

Marian seems to have grown up with some affluency and was even expecting some inheritance (and was let down by Henry - true to his style to the grave). Since nothing we know about Henry indicates business acumen I'd say he somehow managed to marry money.

Her father was a General so he had an income from military service (and maybe a pension). We don’t know when Marian’s mother died, he could’ve been living off of her dowry until it was gone. 

 

9 hours ago, PRgal said:

Wouldn't Agnes have had a dowry of some sort when she married?  

Not if her brother spent it. Which it sounds like he did. Likely he had a gambling problem and spent/sold EVERYTHING before his sisters were married or secure. Given the timeline we we were given, his sisters were probably in their teens when the father died and left Marian’s dad in charge of the finances. As he was selling everything Agnes accepted the first proposal from a suitable man trying to secure a life for her and Ada. 
 

He left his daughter, his only child (so no brother to provide for her) with $30 (equivalent to about $830 today, I guessed $1000 but googled) and her clothes/the furniture in the house to live on. Knowing she was not married or even engaged. Sounds like he lived beyond his means and was in debt up to his eye balls. 

[AZChristian]

12 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I’m guessing there are several reasons. Likely she never met a man who met her conditions and there could’ve been a big fear of marrying a man like her brother in law. From the dialogue he was likely physically/sexually abusive towards Agnes.

From the way Ada described him as "a man you'd never want to be alone in a room with," I got the feeling he may have been (or at least tried to be) inappropriate with her as well.

[Scarlett45]

6 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

From the way Ada described him as "a man you'd never want to be alone in a room with," I got the feeling he may have been (or at least tried to be) inappropriate with her as well.

That’s also possible. Sounds like he was a bad dude all around. They were probably glad to put him in the grave. Wealthy widows had a lot of freedom, and Agnes had a son if she needed male representative in society. 

[SunnyBeBe]

I’m new to the series.  The house where they were playing croquet on the water (Rockport?) reminded me of the house used for location of the movie Evening, which featured Merl Streep….just coincidental I suppose. (Her daughter being in this series.)Shown here:
 

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0765447/mediaviewer/rm3989934848/

 

 

[RedHawk]

On 2/6/2022 at 12:53 PM, izabella said:

Yep, Marian's father was a spendthrift who spent all the family money, then sold the house out under them all, spent that money, and then took off, leaving Agnes and Ada homeless and penniless so Agnes had to marry Van Rijn.  Presumably, he went on to earn enough money somehow to keep a roof over his head, married someone, raised a child, and then leave her homeless and penniless once all his debts were paid.   Agnes was not at all surprised that he left his daughter penniless - she guessed it before Marian said anything.

Since they have given us absolutely nothing about Marian's background, we really have no idea what dear ole dad was doing during those 30-40 years to earn money to stay afloat, albeit in debt.

If Marian is 18 to 20 then I'd say her father left his sisters 25-30 years ago. Closer to 30 I guess if Agnes's son is 26-28. Many people married in their late teens to mid 20s back then.

Marian believed that she would inherit the house at least, believing that her father owned it until the lawyer told her it was merely rented/leased. He must have had some means of earning money enough to keep his family respectable but not enough to leave anything behind.

[cameron]

On 2/7/2022 at 3:07 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

I’m new to the series.  The house where they were playing croquet on the water (Rockport?) reminded me of the house used for location of the movie Evening, which featured Merl Streep….just coincidental I suppose. (Her daughter being in this series.)Shown here:
 

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0765447/mediaviewer/rm3989934848/

The lawn scene was filmed at the Ledges in Newport.

 

 

[Roseanna]

14 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

If Marian is 18 to 20 then I'd say her father left his sisters 25-30 years ago. Closer to 30 I guess if Agnes's son is 26-28. 

I don't think that Marian's age is in no way connected with the time when her father left her sisters. He could have done it as well 40 than 30 years ago. Even the age of Agnes' son tells only the minimum time that has been gone as there is no guarantee that she bore her son (about) one year after the wedding (we don't even know if she had before him other children who had died - infant mortality was high even in rich families). 

[Scarlett45]

3 hours ago, RedHawk said:

If Marian is 18 to 20 then I'd say her father left his sisters 25-30 years ago. Closer to 30 I guess if Agnes's son is 26-28. Many people married in their late teens to mid 20s back then.

Marian believed that she would inherit the house at least, believing that her father owned it until the lawyer told her it was merely rented/leased. He must have had some means of earning money enough to keep his family respectable but not enough to leave anything behind.

He was a General, so he had a military income/pension and likely his wife’s dowry. 

 

3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I don't think that Marian's age is in no way connected with the time when her father left her sisters. He could have done it as well 40 than 30 years ago. Even the age of Agnes' son tells only the minimum time that has been gone as there is no guarantee that she bore her son (about) one year after the wedding (we don't even know if she had before him other children who had died - infant mortality was high even in rich families). 

Given the age of these women, I think it was closer to 40 years ago.

Also men have a much longer reproductive lifespan than women, and he was the older brother- he could’ve had Marian in his 40s and died in his 60s. 
 

Agnes could have living children older than her son, but they may live elsewhere. Or she didn’t have her son until several years into the marriage. I agree that the sister’s current age is a better guide to when all this happened. Ada was probably in her early/mid teens. 

[AZChristian]

4 hours ago, RedHawk said:

Marian believed that she would inherit the house at least, believing that her father owned it until the lawyer told her it was merely rented/leased. 

I'm not trusting that lawyer.  Did he show Marian any paperwork that shows the house was rented and not owned????  

[Roseanna]

8 hours ago, AZChristian said:

I'm not trusting that lawyer.  Did he show Marian any paperwork that shows the house was rented and not owned????  

Do you trust Marian's father? He had been untrustworthy towards her sisters. 

And if the lawyer has already stolen Marian's fortune,  why is he still courting her? 

[AZChristian]

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Do you trust Marian's father? He had been untrustworthy towards her sisters. 

And if the lawyer has already stolen Marian's fortune,  why is he still courting her? 

Good questions . . . but there's just something about him that makes me think he's up to something.

[Roseanna]

57 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

 but there's just something about him that makes me think he's up to something.

Maybe,  but in that case the writing isn't especially good. There should be red herrings. 

[TV Anonymous]

I come from a so-called developing country and therefore I have my personal pain if I watch food being wasted, fictional or IRL. Therefore, I do not really enjoy the scene where Mrs. Russell told Church to donate that extravagant spread to charity, and Church retorted with which charity should get lobster salad. Well, at least the food went to charity unlike Logan Roy that ordered the catering staff to literally throw lobsters into garbage bins.

[Melina22]

37 minutes ago, TV Anonymous said:

I come from a so-called developing country and therefore I have my personal pain if I watch food being wasted, fictional or IRL.

This is strange but last night I was pondering this exact thing. I'm not from a developing country, although my parents were teenagers overseas during WWII, but I also feel almost physical pain at this kind of waste, and the scene you described made me feel terrible. I had to remind myself it wasn't real, and try not to think about the restaurants and supermarkets and caterers who throw out boatloads of excellent food every day. 😔

 

[AZChristian]

I keep reading both sides of the "is Mr. Raikes honest" debate.  This morning, I went back and watched our introduction to him as he and Marian are in his office, discussing the situation following her father's death.  I transcribed their entire dialog.  My thoughts after some of the discussion are in italics.

B:  I’m afraid none of them are worth the paper they’re printed on.  

He has the stocks on his side of the desk, and the names of the railroad stocks are not visible.

M:  But surely with the railroad spreading all over the country.  Every day, the papers talk of some new millionaire who’s made his fortune out of railways.  

Hmmm . . . like George Russell?

B:  And every day the bankruptcy courts see rail companies go under, taking their owners and investors down with them.  Miss Brook, the plain fact is, I’ve looked into the estate of the late Mr. Brook.  

So he knows how much is there.

M:  The late General Brook.

B:  The late General Brook, and I cannot find any assets beyond the contents of his bank account.  

So he knows how much is there in the bank account.

M:  And the house.

B:  The house is rented, Miss Brook.  

No lease?  No proof?  Is there a deed that he's not showing her?

M:  I’m sure that’s wrong.

B:  No, I’m afraid not.

M:  But my father always said -- (Pause) – I see.  And how much is left?

B:  I’ve paid the funeral charges and other outstanding accounts, and I will waive my own fee.

No proof of funeral charges or outstanding accounts?  When my brother died, I provided detailed information about his finances to his children before dividing it among them equally.  They were given copies of all outstanding bills (which I paid from his estate) and bank accounts.

M:  There’s no need.

B:  There is every need.  You will have in your possession somewhere in the region of $30.

Not "all that's left is $30."  It's all that she will have in her possession. Carefully worded, IMO. 

M:  You see, Mr. Raikes, none of this is what my father told me.

B:  So I gathered.  What are you going to do?

He gathered she was kept in the dark.  I suspect it was not uncommon for a daughter not to bother her pretty little head about family financial matters, and I suspect that Raikes may have assumed this about Marian before they met.  I further suspect Raikes had Power of Attorney and was able to raid the estate upon the General's death.

M:  I’m not sure.

B:  You mentioned your father’s sisters in New York.

So if he knows she has wealthy family in New York, he can take her money that he has embezzled from her father's estate and finance his move to New York so he can "close the deal" and try to marry her so that her money really WOULD be his.

M:  My aunts were not on good terms with my father, Mr. Raikes.  They disliked him and he disliked them, so they have played no part in my life.

Aunt Agnes sure didn't have anything good to say about General Brook.  Maybe he had inherited the family's money (as sons often did back then), but wouldn't share it with his sisters, which caused Agnes to marry Mr. Van Rjiin in order to have a roof over her head. 

B:  I would only ask you to consider your options realistically.

M:  You mean beggars can’t be choosers?

His eyes lit up when she said that, almost in anticipation of what may have been his next step:  hoping the beggar (Marian) would be more open to his advances.

B:  Well, the rent is paid until the end of the month.  Perhaps you will signal your intentions before that point is reached.

M:  Perhaps I will.  Thank you.

B:  I’m sorry I couldn’t be more help.

M:  Don’t worry, Mr. Raikes, I’m not beaten yet.

B:  At the risk of impertinence, I would say you’re a long way from being beaten, Miss Brook.

=====================

I thought Raikes' affect was odd through this whole thing.  At times, he looked evasive (telling her the stocks were worthless), and other times he appeared very pleased with himself.

Marian screwed herself by being so trusting and accepting what he said about the estate was true.  Agnes would NOT have been so gullible.

Edited February 26, 2022 by AZChristian

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, AZChristian said:

Marian screwed herself by being so trusting and accepting what he said about the estate was true.  Agnes would NOT have been so gullible.

 

This is interesting, thank you. I will venture that Agnes may have been gullible at one point, when she was closer to Marion's age.

It certainly is a good setup for some continuing stories.

It seems to me reasonable that he wouldn't provide her with proof during this conversation (he is already delivering bad news) , since the General obviously kept her in the dark about their financial situation.  She is probably wishing she could run away and absorb the information that she is penniless alone.

He should offer the papers to her. She wouldn't know to ask for the papers later.

Edited February 26, 2022 by Affogato

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, AZChristian said:

Aunt Agnes sure didn't have anything good to say about General Brook.  Maybe he had inherited the family's money (as sons often did back then), but wouldn't share it with his sisters, which caused Agnes to marry Mr. Van Rjiin in order to have a roof over her head. 

 

We know what happened there. He inherited the money and *spent it* so that there was nothing left for his sisters and that's why Agnes had to marry Van Rijiin and hated her brother. So there's a good possibility that he did exactly the same to Marian, whatever impression he gave her of being rich. Marian didn't actually look into herself either way, though. 

Her brother disliking his sisters was pretty ballsy on his part. Marian grew up with a mistaken impression about them too.

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, AZChristian said:

No proof of funeral charges or outstanding accounts?  When my brother died, I provided detailed information about his finances to his children before dividing it among them equally.  They were given copies of all outstanding bills (which I paid from his estate) and bank accounts.

Why do you think that nobody in the American shows waits for the waiter but simply put a bill on the table and then leaves the restaurant? Because it would take too much time to present all the details just as irl.

The same with this scene: its time is limited and the audience must not be burdened with details that are unnecessary or boring. 

  

 

Edited February 26, 2022 by Roseanna
add two letters

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, AZChristian said:

I thought Raikes' affect was odd through this whole thing.  At times, he looked evasive (telling her the stocks were worthless), and other times he appeared very pleased with himself.

To me, Raikes looks meant that he was was sorry to give Marian bad news. 

[Hiyo]

Quote

I thought Raikes' affect was odd through this whole thing.  At times, he looked evasive (telling her the stocks were worthless), and other times he appeared very pleased with himself.

Marian screwed herself by being so trusting and accepting what he said about the estate was true.  Agnes would NOT have been so gullible.

It definitely doesn't paint Raikes in the best light, and makes him look somewhat shady.

[AZChristian]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

He should offer the papers to her. She wouldn't know to ask for the papers later.

IMO, if he wasn't trying to hide anything, he would have given her the papers.  Weren't they - even if they were worthless - part of the estate?

[Affogato]

13 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

IMO, if he wasn't trying to hide anything, he would have given her the papers.  Weren't they - even if they were worthless - part of the estate?

If he has power if attorney and she doesn’t ask couldn’t they reasonably be part of his records? She us an unmarried woman with few legal rights and no male relatives. I am not a lawyer but I doubt she would get the estate to manage on her own. 

[SomeTameGazelle]

On 2/6/2022 at 9:09 PM, Scarlett45 said:

I think so. I am quite interested in Peggy’s story. I am thinking her father sent her to be educated so that she could make a good marriage** but she wants to be a writer, and her father ruined a job opportunity for her because he would like to see her married well. She’s pissed, and her Mom fells stuck in the middle. 

My guess was that he had prevented her from marrying the man of her choice somehow.

On 2/13/2022 at 2:29 AM, Roseanna said:

And if the lawyer has already stolen Marian's fortune,  why is he still courting her? 

If he has stolen her money, marrying her would make it legally his and wash out the theft step. 

On 2/12/2022 at 5:40 PM, Scarlett45 said:

He was a General, so he had a military income/pension and likely his wife’s dowry. 

I was wondering how he was up to date with the rent but with so little cash on hand for the next payment and living expenses. If he was living on his pension I suppose that could explain it but it doesn't account for his failure to try to get Marian settled. 

[bunnyblue]

I'm late to the party - I just started watching this weekend. This show is full of actors that look familiar but when I check IMDB it turns out I've never seen most of them anywhere else. Except for Cynthia Nixon and Christine Baranski.

Good God, the Russell mansion is obscene. It looks like it belongs more in the English countryside than in the middle of NYC. Why do they need 50 servants when there are only 4 people living in the house? I understand the need for tons of servants when they throw a party but when it's just George, Bertha, and Gladys sitting at dinner why do require 10 people serving them? George & Bertha seem cutthroat and ambitious, but at least Larry & Gladys seem like nice people. 

Just how much money does George Russell have? I thought he'd be angry about all the money wasted over the disastrous ball but his only concern was Bertha's feelings. Only his name is on the office building, he's got the newly built mansion, the son at Harvard, etc. He doesn't bat an eye at how much money is spent by himself and his wife. So is he a billionaire? The Elon Musk of his time?

In the opening scene when the camera entered the Van Rhijn house from the street and traveled through the downstairs servant's area, all I could think was that, today, the entire first level could be divided into 2-3 units and rented out. That is prime NYC property. And that's just the downstairs, the upstairs could probably be divided into 4-6 apartments. Those Brownstones (is the Van Rhijn house a Brownstone?) are just gorgeous.

I thought Agnes would be the antagonist of the show, but turns out she's more of a snob with some progressive views. I doubt many women of her stature in 1882 would employ a black female secretary. Speaking of Peggy, I worry about her living alone in NYC just 17 years after the end of the Civil War. 

Okay, so from Agnes's conversation with niece Marian, I gather Agnes's wealth is through her loveless (and abusive?) marriage. BUT the Brook family also had their own "old" money before Marian's father spent it all. And Agnes, Ada, and Marian also have that old money prestige through their maternal line? So even though Marian is penniless, she is allowed into the old money society because of her heritage (and Aunt Agnes's money). And even though Bertha Russell has the wealth of a small country, because she's new money she's not allowed into good society. How exhausting and ridiculous.

The "downstairs" scenes are rather clunky and don't work nearly as well as they did in Downton Abbey or Gosford Park. I feel like NYC servants wouldn't really give a crap about the lives of the upstairs people they serve and wouldn't really gossip about them. The weird snobbery between the Russell servants and the Van Rhijn servants also felt forced.

Edited March 20, 2022 by bunnyblue

[Yeah No]

On 3/20/2022 at 4:00 AM, bunnyblue said:

Good God, the Russell mansion is obscene. It looks like it belongs more in the English countryside than in the middle of NYC.

It does, but have you ever seen photos of the actual gilded age mansions of 5th Avenue?  Many of them were as big or bigger and even more obscene if you can imagine that.  Many have long since been demolished, but some have survived and been turned into museums or other institutions.  The Frick Museum is one of those still standing.  I would have to do some research to figure out how many former such mansions I've been in in Manhattan.

[Scarlett45]

On 3/20/2022 at 3:00 AM, bunnyblue said:

The "downstairs" scenes are rather clunky and don't work nearly as well as they did in Downton Abbey or Gosford Park. I feel like NYC servants wouldn't really give a crap about the lives of the upstairs people they serve and wouldn't really gossip about them. The weird snobbery between the Russell servants and the Van Rhijn servants also felt forced.

I think that they would. Humans are humans, and close proximity breeds familiarity- also, a part of the job as a member of the household staff is anticipating your employers needs and serving their interests. The household servants would have "intel" in a way the employers would not, being able to provide your employer with useful information about others in their social circle, as well as anticipate their needs (who is going to who's ball, who is courting whom) etc would be a great "soft skill", to have, would create job security for you.

A 21st century version would be a good personal assistant to a movie star who knew all the tea about behind the scenes knowledge of movie studios etc.

[brisbydog]

On 2/2/2022 at 9:41 AM, peachmangosteen said:

I wasn't sure who that was so I googled him and yowsa. He is so completely unattractive in this show but hot as hell in real life lol.

Yeah I don't understand the choice to make him fug here. He was gorgeous as the Queen's uncle in same era in Upstairs Downstairs, and it would make sense if he was as pretty here so it would make sense that Gladys would be intrigued by him

[Camera One]

Finally got around to trying this show.  This first episode was alright.  It did a decent job of laying out the premise, though none of the characters stood out as particularly likeable or interesting.  Hopefully that changes with time.

With the main character, she seemed a tad ungrateful to her aunts.  When she said she wanted to work, I was wondering what she did before her father died.  Did she not feel at all betrayed by her "daddy" leaving her with nothing?  She should have understood her aunt's plight a little better.

She did look a little like Cinderella sneaking off to the ball.

I like Christine Baranski, but she didn't really stand out in this first episode either.

I enjoy historical fiction to be immersed in the setting, but the CGI in the background just didn't look real.  The music was also not memorable.

Anyway, I think the show does have potential and there's enough to make me want to watch more.

 

[Medicine Crow]

I'm sorry, but this sounds familiar & I can't find it on my line-up.  What channel, day & time.  I feel like I'm missing something I'd like.  TIA.

 

[Camera One]

2 hours ago, Medicine Crow said:

I'm sorry, but this sounds familiar & I can't find it on my line-up.  What channel, day & time.  I feel like I'm missing something I'd like.  TIA.

 

I think this is just on streaming.  It was originally going to air on NBC but then it ended up on HBO.

[Medicine Crow]

47 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I think this is just on streaming.  It was originally going to air on NBC but then it ended up on HBO.

It's okay ... I asked Mr. Google & discovered you're talking about the first episode of The Gilded Age ... a series I was addicted to ... fabulous (if you like that dated stuff).

[One Tough Cookie]

I just started this show and have mixed feelings about this, but what really stood out to me was how AWFUL Cynthia Nixon is.  Her manner of speaking is just so awful it's like chalk on a blackboard. And Marian is no prize, either.

I'm interested in the backstory to the Russel's--how did he get his fortune and what drives Bertha {whom I am embarrassed to say I love her}?

I can never get enough of Christine Baranski.  Her asides are priceless.

Edited January 3 by One Tough Cookie

[Sarah 103]

1 hour ago, One Tough Cookie said:

I just started this show and have mixed feelings about this, but what really stood out to me was how AWFUL Cynthia Nixon is.  Her manner of speaking is just so awful it's like chalk on a blackboard. And Marian is no prize, either.

The first season is not that great but it vastly improves in the second season. If you are willing to stick with the series, you will be rewarded, especially if you are a fan of Bertha.

[chaifan]

On 1/3/2024 at 2:11 PM, One Tough Cookie said:

I just started this show and have mixed feelings about this, but what really stood out to me was how AWFUL Cynthia Nixon is.  Her manner of speaking is just so awful it's like chalk on a blackboard. And Marian is no prize, either.

As Sarah said above, stick with it.  CN's portrayal of Ada was a bit jarring for me, too, and seemed awfully stiff at first.  And then it really did become the character.  I think everything she was doing was quite purposeful.  The squeaky, almost childlike voice was also annoying to me.

Louisa Jacobson as Marian - you're in good company with your feelings about here.  Lots of criticisms about LJ's acting.  She's ok, but really is a lightweight in a room with Christine Baranski and others.  She gets a little better second season, but I still just don't think she's a great actress.  I don't think it helps that the character is incredibly dull. 

[LinkAiris]

On 1/28/2022 at 3:39 AM, Roseanna said:

You make good points. 

However, one can't force ones feelings. And I think that there are reasons why Marian feels differently towards Peggy who was a total stranger and had little money and still helped voluntarily. That loan is now paid (thanks to Agnes), so they are are equal (irl they weren't as Peggy is a servant). Instead, it's not easy to be totally dependent on a rich aunt who initially was (as we were shown) reluctant to take her niece to her house and has so far only melted a little. And because Marian father has painted her sisters black, she is only slowly learning that they aren't but her father acted wrongly towards them. 

Regarding your other points, blame Fellowes. He should have invented a plot where Marian resisted her aunt for better reasons. 

The recent repayment of the loan, facilitated by Agnes, may symbolize financial parity, yet social and emotional dynamics often transcend monetary transactions. Marian's journey of understanding her family's complexities, especially her father's influence, adds layers to her evolving perceptions.

It's understandable to wish for Marian to resist her aunt for more substantial reasons within the storyline. Plot development always leaves room for interpretation and critique. Perhaps Fellowes could have explored deeper motivations or conflicts to enrich Marian's character arc further.

Overall, your points highlight the nuances of Marian's relationships and the narrative choices in depicting her evolving feelings and actions.