S03.E08: Chiantishire

[TexasGal]

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After a tense board meeting to discuss acquisition of Matsson's GoJo, Roman shares his suspicions about their mother's new beau with Shiv. As a luxe family wedding gets underway in Italy, Gerri draws a line in the sand with Roman, the Waystar team grows increasingly concerned about Matsson's rogue tweets, and Shiv and Caroline have a heart-to-heart, of sorts.

Airdate: 12.05.2021

[dmc]

There’s no way he’s dead right?

I feel there’s no way he’s dead.  This is a scare tactic.  HBO doesn’t have the balls for Ken to be dead. 

Also Shiv’s best play is sexual harassment in a place notorious for sexual harassment. Shiv really doesn’t know the game here.  This is a place that is currently about to pay off the DOJ with settlement.  Kendall is awol. Logan has one son and she thinks sexual harassment is going to cut it.  Shiv is in a chess game and she just slapped down a checker on the board. I’m not even sure it’s a checker it may be the shoe in Monopoly.  

Roman, women hate dick pictures.  It’s like phallic terrorism. Roman is still coming out ahead this episode though.  Because the deal is not dead and he literally made Shiv so desperate she thinks sexual harassment will get rid of Roman.  

Kendall… I’m out I don’t want to be like you I’m a nice guy.  I mean he’s not a nice guy but it’s a nice sentiment.  Logan turning the knife about him killing that guy.  Logan is literally a piece of shit.  I keep rooting for his kids to finally wise up and get the hell out of there.

Caroline…I know she wants us to feel bad for her but she still the woman that when Ken said he had to talk to her literally left the house.  Nope sorry Caroline.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by dmc

[nilyank]

28 minutes ago, dmc said:

There’s no way he’s dead right?

 

Would these horrible people actually have and attend the wedding if the bride's eldest son drowned on the property?

Well yeah they are.

[Penman61]

Cringe tragedy…cringe tragedy

[dmc]

7 minutes ago, nilyank said:

Would these horrible people actually have and attend the wedding if the bride's eldest son drowned on the property?

Well yeah they are.

I would like to say no.  

[RedDelicious]

I despise Shiv. Tom’s heart breaking across his face is too much 💔

[dmc]

Just now, RedDelicious said:

I despise Shiv. Tom’s heart breaking across his face is too much 💔

I don’t love you but I love you.

[txhorns79]

46 minutes ago, dmc said:

 

Roman, women hate dick pictures.  It’s like phallic terrorism. Roman is still coming out ahead this episode though.  

I honestly have no idea what Geri likes or hates in terms of Roman.  I do love watching Roman squirming for an explanation as to why he sent his dad a dick pick.

[dmc]

2 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I honestly have no idea what Geri likes or hates in terms of Roman.  I do love watching Roman squirming for an explanation as to why he sent his dad a dick pick.

Geri is difficult to read.  It’s hard to know what she’s into and what she’s not, agreed. Also I think that’s part of the game with Roman.  The more boundaries she throws up the more he likes it.

[Sharper2002]

I doubt Gerri will be fired. She’s one of the most competent people there, and Shiv ain’t filling that void. 

The dinner scene between Kendall and Logan with Logan using his own grandson as a taster. Wow. 

I don’t think Kendall is a nice person at all, but he could have a chance for redemption. That he realizes he should walk away whereas the other siblings are still fighting for Logan’s approval is a good first step. 

Oh, Roman. I said he was due for a fall, but this isn’t how I imagined.

[Maire]

My hope too is that they wouldn’t go ahead with the wedding if Ken died so maybe he’s ok? 
 

How did Greg get invited to this wedding?
 

[Diapason Untuned]

I say this every week, but damn the Roy family is so messed up. It's a family of serial emotional abusers. The worst thing is that they won't even let you run away from them.

Kendall finally getting the idea and trying to get away from these people and Logan guilt tripping him by reminding him of the murder he helped cover up. Caroline was so right when she said that Logan likes kicking people to see if they come back. It's disgusting. I almost vomited in my mouth when Logan called himself a revolutionary. The way he literally used his own grandkid to test for poison to screw with Kendall's head was especially nasty.

Caroline and Logan have been divorced for decades and the man is still slithering around in her life. Showing up at her wedding with the 20 something assistant he's having an affair with is so gross.  Even her own fiance was more interested in hanging around Logan than he was with her

Just when I was actually feeling sorry for her, Caroline actually blamed the kids for going with Logan.. She really thinks Shiv being 13 means she was actually making any sound decisions. And for real, is Shiv's nickname something her mother came up as a guilt trip?!

Shiv then gaslighting Tom into making him think he was being manipulative when she was playing around with him by telling him she doesn't give a damn about him. That chat about the embryos was chilling.

Connor being creepy and doing a public proposal when his girlfriend is literally stranded in England with no way away from him is manipulative as hell. He doesn't even hide that he's doing it for political points for a campaign that's going absolutely nowhere!

Roman wins creep of the episode by continuing to send dick pics to Gerry even though she was telling him to knock it off. The worst thing is that he really thinks it's cute or a joke or something. it's absolutely crazy that I thought he would fall from grace because he screwed up the Mattson deal, but he actually saved it (sorta) then screwed himself over by sending a dick pic to his dad. That poster from last week was positively prophetic.

And then Shiv rounded things out by being a real piece of garbage and trying to use Gerri as leverage to screw over Roman. Shiv has no scruples at all, she just puts on the show.

And then that cliffhanger! The way they shot it so that you couldn't be absolutely sure if it was ripples or bubbles was diabloic! 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Diapason Untuned

[Ellaria]

A lot to digest in this episode…

I don’t think that Kendall is dead. Not sure of his next move but that podcast with mention of the dead waiter is looming. Would he ever confess and thereby implicate Logan in the cover-up? That dinner conversation between the two of them was beautifully acted. I thought - for a brief moment - that Kendall had the upper hand. Then, Logan had his grandson taste the possibly poisoned mozzarella to demonstrate his ruthlessness. It was over then.

Shiv can get lost at anytime. Note to Tom: listen to what your wife is really telling you and find a way out. 

No, Connor, just no. Public proposals are never advisable.

Caroline is quite the charming mother. Must have been fun growing up in that household.

Did not expect that Roman’s fall from grace would be because he sent a dick pic to Logan. Shiv trying to manipulate Gerri to hasten Roman’s decline was appropriately ineffective.

Mattson is odd. Might want to think twice before moving forward with him.

Have no idea what the finale will bring but I’m intrigued.

 

[Ms Blue Jay]

This is why I always say Kieran deserves an Emmy!  The amount of emotions in just 5 minutes!

Kieran's almost 40, so I wonder if Roman is actually older than Logan's assistant.  And yet, Gerri's the one who is "a million years old"?  LOL.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Ms Blue Jay

[Francie]

I love that the season began with suspect doughnuts, and now Logan actually uses his grandson as a food taster. 

 

[Evie]

Kendall is not a good person but Logan is an evil piece of shit. He sent his son a birthday card saying to get the fuck out but when Kendall actually wants to cash out, Logan isn't having it. The way he twisted the knife about the waiter's death was chilling.  I don't think Kendall is dead, but the season ending with his death would make a lot of sense given his trajectory and possibly open up some new possibilities for next season. I don't want to lose Jeremy Strong, and I doubt HBO does either, but I don't know where Kendall goes from here. Maybe he'll confess to the waiter's death? 

Tom, listen to Shiv. That wasn't dirty pillow talk, that was Shiv telling Tom exactly what she thinks about him. I don't love you, but I love you. Geez. Tom isn't a good person either, but he could do better than Shiv.

I was kind of into Roman and Gerri when it seemed like Gerri was into it but not so much now that she's seemingly trying to put the kibosh on it, or at least on the dick pics. Logan has a lot of nerve calling Roman and Gerri gross because of Gerri's age considering he's fucking his assistant.

Connor proved as manipulative as his siblings with that public proposal.

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Evie

[formerlyfreedom]

Oh my. This show sure makes me feel a lot better about my own fucked up dysfunctional family dynamics. Although we don’t get to go to the pretty international venues…

[Hera]

43 minutes ago, Maire said:

How did Greg get invited to this wedding?

I wondered the same thing. I also thought it was a little odd Connor was there. He's old enough to have been a father figure to Roman and Kendall, so I can't imagine he felt any closer to Caroline than he and the other kids do to Marcia. Plus, given what a shitty mom Caroline was/is to her kids, it's hard to imagine she would have been a loving stepmother to him.

Speaking of Caroline—just wow. I didn't remember her seeming so awful in the episode where Shiv and Tom got married. Aloof and maybe clueless, but they really made the most of her in this one. On what planet was that idea of having Kendall and Logan divide the wedding events reasonable? And how about her defence of her parenting record by telling Shiv she wasn't a very good daughter at 13, as well as that bizarre attitide she has towards her fiancé?

52 minutes ago, Diapason Untuned said:

Shiv then gaslighting Tom into making him think he was being manipulative when she was playing around with him by telling him she doesn't give a damn about him. That chat about the embryos was chilling.

I don't like Shiv, but Sarah Snook was on fire this episode. Her reactions to Tom during that embryo discussion were absolutely perfect, especially her muted surprise at Tom saying he would want her to have the embryos in the event of his death.

[txhorns79]

34 minutes ago, Evie said:

The way he twisted the knife about the waiter's death was chilling.

I think Kendall had that coming.  You can't participate in the cover up of a death resulting from your actions, then turn around and act superior to the person who you turned to for help with the cover up.  Kendall might like to imagine he's better than Logan, but the truth is Kendall is just as self-serving.     

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I also thought it was a little odd Connor was there.

Connor is the sibling to Caroline's children, and she presumably played some kind of motherly role to him at some point.  It would be a pretty pointed snub to have Logan there, but not include Connor.

[formerlyfreedom]

1 minute ago, Hera said:

I wondered the same thing. I also thought it was a little odd Connor was there. He's old enough to have been a father figure to Roman and Kendall, so I can't imagine he felt any closer to Caroline than he and the other kids do to Marcia. Plus, given what a shitty mom Caroline was/is to her kids, it's hard to imagine she would have been a loving stepmother to him.

I think part of it was because her fiance wanted all the big guns there. Now...here me out. Greg is not a 'big gun' nor is Connor. But if say, he had also wanted Greg's grandfather there (and c'mon, don't we all want to see more of James Cromwell?) and maybe some outliers that Connor's presence would invite...

That's my handwavium for that plot point anyway!

[Mr. R0b0t]

I'm not sure I loved the episode as a whole as much as specific scenes.  Both Tom and Shiv scenes were electric with a dark energy of immense sadness and MacFadyen is the MVP of the season IMO.  My take is Kendall isn't dead yet, but also I think he doesn't make it to next season.  I'm not sure how he stays around unless they just recycle his sad estranged prince plot.  Gerri played that the right way.... be coy, don't show any cards.  Shiv is the WORST player of these reindeer games.

[aghst]

Logan is desperate for the deal.  He just wants to know if Lukas is a serious guy.  Did he use "sicko" the same word he put to Roman?

Of course they're going to have a big extravagant Tuscan wedding.  These big gatherings are Succession's special sauce, when the excellent ensemble cast all get their chances to solo.  Reality shows with big casts also have big parties, in hopes that people get drunk and have fights or at least arguments.  Succession is way more deft in handing the multiple convos which happen at these events

And I want to know the villa where they all arrived (with the rows of cypresses lining the only road to the villa), the villa with the pool overlooking the Tuscan hills that Kendall was at, the restaurant with the balcony in the little town they took over for the bachelorette party, Lukas' lakeside villa (somewhere in Switzerland they said but could have been Lake Como).

Yeah that was some talk between Caroline and Shiv, while they had a fag.  They accused each other of being shitty parent and daughter, human beings overall.  That got Shiv all hopped up, she returns home, says "lets have a baby" because her mother said she shouldn't have children.

Next morning, Shiv is talking about another contract between them (like the open marriage deal she made him agree to the night before their wedding), where they could bank the embryos and there would be specific terms about whether they're entitled to them if either of them should die or become incapacitated.  You know, she was talking to her mother about prenups the night before so why not talk about postnups the day after?

Connor is worried about a reporter digging into Willa's past, how it might hurt his candidacy.  So he decides to propose to her?  How would that fix the potential optics problem with her past?  As for her, why is she thinking on it?  She's been with him for 3 years (or maybe in the show timeline, it's only been a year or so since the family was opening mocking him about her being a call girl in season 1).  She may still be looking for love elsewhere but she also seem to be quite cozy with the lifestyle that Connor has given her -- is she still going out on her own to get Starbucks?  She's not getting any younger so does she think she can bag another guy worth at least 9-figures?

Greg is trying to climb the ladder, going for the Contessa, who's an Instagram model for some yogurt water thing.  Already over Comfry but setting his sights on someone who thinks Roman is some catch?  We know it can't be that she's in "sexual thrall" to Roman.

I don't know how Roman is all of a sudden this whiz about market valuations, future revenue potential of Asian sports streaming and such.  He doesn't seem the type to look at financial statements or market research.  Sure they established that he has great intuition, like the deal he was trying to broker in season 2.  But how would he know if Gojo is going to become much bigger.  It was Kendall's idea to acquire Gojo.  They know they have to acquire a growing business, since the Waystar business units are not growing or even shrinking.

Roman gets excited about something at the meeting that he sends the dic pic to the worst person he could have sent it to.  Maybe Logan can't trust his judgement but he's going to protect him by firing Gerri?

For a second, I thought Roman might retort to Logan that him sleeping with Kerrie is sick.  But he slunk away with his tail between his legs.

They are playing games with Kendall and that last scene.  In one of the cuts for the previews in the finale, you have Logan with his arm around Iverson and not a single shot of Kendall.  Just wouldn't be the same without Kendall, unless they planned to never have him be a contender again.  I thought during their dinner, Logan was possibly being conciliatory, by not being his usual blustery self, like constantly shouting expletives at him.

 

[aghst]

10 minutes ago, saoirse said:

I think part of it was because her fiance wanted all the big guns there. Now...here me out. Greg is not a 'big gun' nor is Connor. But if say, he had also wanted Greg's grandfather there (and c'mon, don't we all want to see more of James Cromwell?) and maybe some outliers that Connor's presence would invite...

That's my handwavium for that plot point anyway!

They're all there because whenever the show has these big events, in exotic, grand locations, the whole cast gets together.

I forget who said it but the show runners and the writers see these big ensemble events as a chance to get the ensemble cast firing on all cylinders.

Think of all the big events or gatherings they've had over the course of the series.

[RedDelicious]

25 minutes ago, Mr. R0b0t said:

My take is Kendall isn't dead yet, but also I think he doesn't make it to next season.  I'm not sure how he stays around unless they just recycle his sad estranged prince plot.

My immediate thought upon seeing the bubbles was an ultra exclusive rehab facility in Switzerland. Not dead, but also not present. 

[buttersister]

Kendall was trying to hold his breath for 1–2 minutes.

 Thanks, Dad.

[Lady S.]

2 hours ago, Diapason Untuned said:

Caroline was so right when she said that Logan likes kicking people to see if they come back. 

An accurate description of Logan's love, but the implication being she couldn't let him mistreat a dog but could give him 3 children, and that Shiv ruined herself by age 13 anyway. I can see why mother and daughter aren't close, but "he can kick me as many times as he wants" was absolutely not the lesson to take. (And Tom/Shiv absolutely should not have kids but that was a pretty presumptuous thing to say to someone who's been married not that long in show time from someone who does not have the inside knowledge we do of their shitty marriage.)

Just when you think Tom/Shiv have a reached a breaking point she manages to move the goal posts in a new bizarre direction. "I don't love you" is dirty talk and he can have kids from frozen embryos if she dies, ok. I, for one, am amused to see how long this can possibly be stretched out.

Speaking of Tom, I think Connor just beat Tom's proposal in the hospital hallway after Logan's stroke with his own proposal at his ex-stepmother's fancy pre-wedding party in front of a lot more witnesses. 

2 hours ago, Francie said:

I love that the season began with suspect doughnuts, and now Logan actually uses his grandson as a food taster. 

 Yeah, it was a nice callback since they ruled out the doughnuts being poisoned because they were in the home of Kendall's kids.

1 hour ago, buttersister said:

Kendall was trying to hold his breath for 1–2 minutes.

 Thanks, Dad.

That was my thought too, but it was still alarming to have the screen go black knowing there was no one left watching him.

ETA: Omg, Roman's lockscreen is his hand flipping off Shiv.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Lady S.

[Racj82]

I've been trying to think if Kendall being pushed to the side for the wedding could play into the wedding still happening. If he wasn't around, most wouldn't bat an eye because he wasn't supposed to be around when his dad was there.

Also fucked up is that Caroline was totally cool with bowing to Logan's demands because he could do something for her fiance. She was willing to throw her son to the side for that.

Damn, these people are terrible.

[HC87]

Was that the same mother from past years? 

[Ms Blue Jay]

Actor's name is Harriet Walter, here are her IMDb listings:

Succession (TV Series)
Lady Caroline Collingwood

- All the Bells Say (2021) ... Lady Caroline Collingwood

- Chiantishire (2021) ... Lady Caroline Collingwood

- Return (2019) ... Lady Caroline Collingwood

- Nobody Is Ever Missing (2018) ... Lady Caroline Collingwood

- Pre-Nuptial (2018) ... Lady Caroline Collingwood

I don't see another actor listed on this page:  https://succession.fandom.com/wiki/Caroline_Collingwood

Edited December 6, 2021 by Ms Blue Jay

[Adgirl]

1 hour ago, Hera said:

as well as that bizarre attitide she has towards her fiancé

I think it's very similar to the way Shiv feels about Tom. She likes that he's "beneath her" so he'll always be accommodating and so what if it's just so he can have proximity to her connections. Why do parents tell their children they shouldn't have been parents? Its such a completely shitty, manipulative thing to do.

I had to pause when Roman sent the pic. 

 

[Lady S.]

The main reason I think Kendall can't die is because it's not at all true that his character arc has nowhere left to go. The repeated mentions, almost every ep this season, of the drowned waiter feel like a definite Chekhov's gun. What's the point of reminding us of this secret if it's never going to be exposed? Kendall gave up on his quest to dethrone Logan and keep his own hands clean to replace him, but if he owns up to his own crime he'll still implicate Logan in the cover-up.

[thuganomics85]

Whelp, this episode almost had everyone being extra awful, but it certainly reminded me that even though I bounce around over which Roy sibling I dislike the most each episode, none of them will ever match the despicable, unnerving, pure evil that is Daddy Logan.

After all is said and done, Kendall is finally willing to throw in the towel and even though he is completely full of shit about his claims that he's "a good guy", he at least seems to realize the path he is going down and that the best for him; hell, everyone; would be for him to stay far away from everyone else as possible.  So, he's finally willing to cash out.  But it looks like that will not come to fruition, because despite his claims that he will "think about it", it seems clear that Logan has no intention of just letting Kendall take his ball and go home.  Because; just like what Caroline said earlier; he really does enjoy kicking people around and watching them come crawling back.  Asshole.  He likes to claim that he was a "great father", but that is clearly horseshit on every level.  He just loves watching Kendall spiral and suffer.  Again, most; if not all; of it is on Kendall himself for his past sins (for what little it's worth, Logan wasn't wrong to remind Kendall about the waiter), but the thrill Logan seems to get over torturing his kid(s) like this is disgusting.

But, hey, at least Kendall won't be the only kid suffering!  Definitely ironic that Roman would squander all of the goodwill he got as Logan's top kid by accidentally sending a "celebratory dick pic" to dear old dad (meant for Gerri, naturally), and blew that door wide open.  That said, despite Logan's rage at him, I do worry that it will be Gerri that pays the price instead.  And why am I not surprised that Logan would highlight the age difference between them and call it disgusting, despite the fact he's likely doing the same thing with Kerry?  He would be that type of guy (along with everything else he is.)

Shiv trying to be supportive and get Gerri to report Roman to "protect herself" certainly brought back all those memories of last season, when Shiv made that one victim drop her complaint against company about the cruise sexual harassment/assault.  Good to know Shiv is all about supporting victims.... as long as it benefits herself, of course!

Even Connor steps into it by putting Willa on the spot with his proposal that is really more of just a calculating ploy to get more votes.  Dammit, Connor!

I swear, I know he isn't a good person either, but Tom really, really could do better at this point.  He might be a bad person too, but he at least should find an equally bad person that loves him back!

Caroline was as "delightful" as last time.  Still better than Logan, but neither one of them ever should have been parents (or married.)  Not much of Pip Torrens as Peter/the new husband, but I'm wondering if he'll factor in more next season.

While Stewy has been put on the back-burner this season, he certainly made the most of it tonight.  Loved almost all of his lines here.

Greg is so going to just end up ruining any potential relationship he might have with Comfy, due to all the needling he is getting about her being "out of his league."

Even among this group of eccentric assholes, Lukas is quite the character!

Right now, I'm guessing Kendall's "death" is going to be a fake-out, but I really do wonder how much longer he's got.  I can see why the show wouldn't want to lose him; especially thanks to Jeremy Strong's revolutionary performance here; but I just can't see his story lasting much longer baring another sudden swerve.  I guess we might find out next week!

[Melina22]

27 minutes ago, Adgirl said:

Why do parents tell their children they shouldn't have been parents

I was there when a woman I know said this exact thing in front of her three young children. "I should never have been a mother." I was utterly horrified. 

She was such a narcissist it never occurred to her to wonder how this statement made her children feel. This experience made this part of the episode very powerful to me. 

[dmc]

1 hour ago, Melina22 said:

I was there when a woman I know said this exact thing in front of her three young children. "I should never have been a mother." I was utterly horrified. 

She was such a narcissist it never occurred to her to wonder how this statement made her children feel. This experience made this part of the episode very powerful to me. 

I think she knew and said it any way.  She’s manipulative and calculating.  She is the onion. 

[Schweedie]

1 hour ago, dmc said:

I think she knew and said it any way.  She’s manipulative and calculating.  She is the onion. 

It's interesting - I had a different view of that conversation. I took that line as her acknowledging that she hadn't been a good mother, wasn't cut out for it and thus shouldn't have had children. I read it as an almost-sort-of apology.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Schweedie

[Melina22]

6 minutes ago, Schweedie said:

I took that line as her acknowledging that she hadn't been a good mother, wasn't cut out for it and thus shouldn't have had children. I read it as an almost-sort-of apology.

Interesting. When I've heard women say this, I always assumed they were saying "I shouldn't have been a mother. I didn't enjoy it." But in your interpretation, they could be saying "I shouldn't have been a mother. I really tried but I was terrible at it." Same words, completely different focus - one selfish, one apologetic. Fascinating. 

[Pestilentia]

1 hour ago, Schweedie said:

I took that line as her acknowledging that she hadn't been a good mother, wasn't cut out for it and thus shouldn't have had children. I read it as an almost-sort-of apology.

It's an apology, a defense, and an excuse that can be taken many ways. And they are probably all true.

As a non custodial and often very bad mother myself I can tell you that I have felt all those things. I would never say I shouldn't have had a child, but I shouldn't have. Instead I remind them of my age when I gave birth (18) and also remind them what a safe, nurturing environment they grew up in while being raised by a dad and wonderful step mother. I remind them of all the things that could have gone wrong had I not stood up and said "I can't do this."   And I also expect a modicum of understanding once they clear 40-45 years of age- even while understanding that childhood hurts stick. 

So I do think Caroline is a narcissist and a terrible person. But people are multi-faceted and she could also have regrets about how she handled things while still presenting the appearance of being cold and uncaring.  I also think that she is old enough now to understand the damage she has done even if it is inadvertent,  and at least try to appear like she gives a crap or wants them around as more than staging for her wedding. That she continues to twist the knife at this stage in all their lives just illustrates that she is as broken as the rest of them.

We're just seeing more of the dysfunction these kids grew up in and why they have zero clues about personal relationships- they have quite literally never been exposed to a good one. The "succession"  we are watching may not be the chase for the "Top Spot" at all- it may simply be a continuing succession of broken people passing the dysfunction on from one generation to the next.

 

[pasdetrois]

"I should have just had dogs." Chilling.

Edited December 6, 2021 by pasdetrois

[Blakeston]

It's pathetic how submissive Kendall is with Logan - even when he's confronting him and announcing his desire to leave the family.

After Logan got in his last gut punch with, "I cleaned up your shit, and I'm a bad person?", that would have been a great time for Kendall to say, "You just offered your own grandson food that you believed could be poisoned, so yes." Instead of just sitting there with his head bowed in shame.

And of course, of Kendall's children, Logan chose the one with special needs to be his guinea pig. What an irredeemable pig.

[Lassus]

I'll hate a little bit, I guess.  OK, maybe more than a little bit.

I've heard the complaints about this season being a wheel-spinner, but this is really the first time I felt it in spades.  There was no reason for half the leads to be at the wedding. Greg's interactions were repeat of his old ones, and stupefyingly annoying, both with his female interests and with Shiv/Tom.  ("Punching above your weight" as an outside assessment?  Again?  Still?  I have an over-used metaphor for you: "beating a dead horse".)   Shiv/Tom was literally the same as every other Shiv/Tom, Logan/Kendal was only gripping in the moment where Logan called the son in to poison-test the food but pretty stock otherwise.  (I did like to play that in my head that Logan knew there was no poison, but was still just still fucking with his son.)  Terrible mother with guilt over terrible kids storyline - puts on Nina Garcia hat - we've seen it a million times.  The IS HE OR ISN'T HE? Kendall ending?  GAH.

When we FINALLY got to Logan realizing that he needed to do a deal that was nice to see the growth and some non-family things going on, then immediately it was like a tire having the air let out out of it due to DICK PICS OMG and come on, Roman REALLY makes that error to send to his dad and not Gerri?  Logan doesn't know this about his son generally or specifically?  Give me a break. 

I love the show still, but last night both my partner and I were like "that was boring".

Oh, one final note, Shiv is almost certainly no match for Gerri.  At least she SHOULDN'T be.  We'll see what happens.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Lassus

[Johnny Dollar]

I used to like Shiv because she reminds me of a friend who has the same hair, speech patterns and killer snarkiness (although significantly less money). But the way she treated Tom this episode and essentially threatened Gerri, who has to put up with her pervert brother, ranks her right up there with the shittiest behavior of dear old dad. 

[Lassus]

As a pure meta note, the HBO pre-show warning had Adult Content and Adult Language but no Nudity?  With a full-frontal dick pic?  Kind of odd.  I'm sure it has something to do with video vs. still pic, but it was still pretty explicit.

[cardigirl]

7 minutes ago, Lassus said:

Oh, one final note, Shiv is almost certainly no match for Gerri.  At least she SHOULDN'T be.  We'll see what happens.

I hope to gosh Gerri sweeps the leg of Shiv and trounces her.   I never disliked a character on this show more, than I have disliked Shiv this season.  "Put in a good word for you with Dad."  My eye!  Of course, Roman knows she didn't put in a good word for him, but I guess this is Shiv fighting all of them for the top spot. 

I thought the conversation between Caroline and Shiv was perfect.  As dysfunctional as Caroline has been with her children, she admits to accepting the custody arrangement as a means of securing her children's shares in RoyCo.  Talking about Shiv twisting the knife at at 13, believe me, children learn early how to do that, and daughters especially.  (I speak from experience as a mother of a daughter and a daughter of a mother.) 

Finally, I hope that Kendall is not dead but merely experimenting to see what it's like being underwater. Maybe he's trying to feel the full weight of what he did to the young man in season 1.

 

[TV Diva Queen]

8 hours ago, buttersister said:

Kendall was trying to hold his breath for 1–2 minutes.

 Thanks, Dad.

this is EXACTLY what I think is happening.  

[ahpny]

6 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

And why am I not surprised that Logan would highlight the age difference between them and call it disgusting, despite the fact he's likely doing the same thing with Kerry?

The age difference between Gerri and Roman could be half that of between Logan and Kerry. Roman is near 40, Gerri is early 60's, so at most 25 years. Logan is near 80 and Kerry is near 30(?) so possibly about 50 years? The real difference is older men/younger women combinations are somehow more "acceptable" than older women/younger men combinations, the former being ordinary, but the later being "disgusting."

33 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

Shiv is almost certainly no match for Gerri. 

Indeed, but Shiv is too self-absorbed and arrogant to see this, notwithstanding the much guile she does have. Gerri has mastered managing the Roys for decades. I think she'll be fine. She knows not only where the bodies are buried, but who buried them, why, and when. And undoubtedly, she's got documentation to support all of that.

1 hour ago, Blakeston said:

After Logan got in his last gut punch with, "I cleaned up your shit, and I'm a bad person?", that would have been a great time for Kendall to say, "You just offered your own grandson food that you believed could be poisoned, so yes." Instead of just sitting there with his head bowed in shame.

The glaring mismatch between Logan and Kendall was far more stark than that between Shiv and Gerri. The suspected poison-testing, especially in the picturesque Tuscan background, seemed worthy of some medieval Medici machinations or something out of I, Claudius. (where Livia supposedly poisoned many, including her husband Augustus, and was the namesake for Tony Supranos mother).

[Lassus]

As one last meta note, I only realized today that Justine Lupe is Willa in this show AND Astrid (converted sis-in-law) in Ms. Maisel!  Holy crap, talk about hitting your stride, career-wise.

[Diapason Untuned]

7 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

 Again, most; if not all; of it is on Kendall himself for his past sins (for what little it's worth, Logan wasn't wrong to remind Kendall about the waiter), but the thrill Logan seems to get over torturing his kid(s) like this is disgusting.

Within the greater context of the conversation it was really wrong of Logan to bring it up, especially since this is a conversation he created when he decided to be cruel to Kendall on his birthday even though he has no intention of letting him go.

 

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That said, despite Logan's rage at him, I do worry that it will be Gerri that pays the price instead. 

I worry this too, as Logan amply demonstrated this episode, he is no great respecter of women.

 

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And why am I not surprised that Logan would highlight the age difference between them and call it disgusting, despite the fact he's likely doing the same thing with Kerry?  He would be that type of guy (along with everything else he is.)

Can you imagine how Logan would react if one of his kids happened to be LGBTQ?

 

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Even Connor steps into it by putting Willa on the spot with his proposal that is really more of just a calculating ploy to get more votes.  Dammit, Connor!

This one was actually the worst because it was lower key than the others. Some people might think it's Connor being wacky again, but the way he deliberately proposed in public in a situation where Willa is dependent upon him for travel? That's horrible.

I swear, Connor would strand her in England if she said no. She was likely thinking that too.

 

1 hour ago, Blakeston said:

It's pathetic how submissive Kendall is with Logan - even when he's confronting him and announcing his desire to leave the family.

After Logan got in his last gut punch with, "I cleaned up your shit, and I'm a bad person?", that would have been a great time for Kendall to say, "You just offered your own grandson food that you believed could be poisoned, so yes." Instead of just sitting there with his head bowed in shame.

This is not the first time we've seen Logan weaponize this to traumatize Kendall when he thought Ken was getting too big for his britches. Logan knows it's the perfect weapon so he'll always use it. Makes me think this is the actual reason he covered it up.

 

1 hour ago, cardigirl said:

I thought the conversation between Caroline and Shiv was perfect.  As dysfunctional as Caroline has been with her children, she admits to accepting the custody arrangement as a means of securing her children's shares in RoyCo. 

I would believe this if she ever actually tried to parent her kids. I'm more of the opinion that she allowed because it would get her semi-permanent access to Logan's money without being married to him. We've seen her use the kids as leverage to get things out of him before.

 

1 hour ago, Pestilentia said:

It's an apology, a defense, and an excuse that can be taken many ways. And they are probably all true.

This was at the tail end of a conversation where they were sniping at each other, so I don't really see it as an apology.

 

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We're just seeing more of the dysfunction these kids grew up in and why they have zero clues about personal relationships- they have quite literally never been exposed to a good one. The "succession"  we are watching may not be the chase for the "Top Spot" at all- it may simply be a continuing succession of broken people passing the dysfunction on from one generation to the next.

We see it happening in this very episode. Logan hurt Caroline, Caroline turned around and hurt Shiv and Shiv turned around and hurt Tom.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Diapason Untuned

[cardigirl]

8 minutes ago, Diapason Untuned said:

I would believe this if she ever actually tried to parent her kids. I'm more of the opinion that she allowed it because it would get her semi-permanent access to Logan's money without being married to him. We've seen her use the kids as leverage to get things out of him before.

I doubt that Caroline had much power in the dynamic between her and Logan. Perhaps she asked for the divorce and he decided to punish her by threatening to disown their children.  They were probably married without a prenup, given the timing, although, wealthy families have been protecting their assets by legal agreements for forever.

As far as we know, while Caroline holds some shares of RoyCo, and Logan wanted her vote last season, she's been all but abandoned by the family.  I mean, she was negotiating for Christmas visits last season. Apparently, she didn't have custody of that holiday with them either. 

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by cardigirl

[Diapason Untuned]

11 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

I doubt that Caroline had much power in the dynamic between her and Logan. Perhaps she asked for the divorce and he decided to punish her by threatening to disown their children.  They were probably married without a prenup, given the timing, although, wealthy families have been protecting their assets by legal agreements for forever.

As far as we know, while Caroline holds some shares of RoyCo, and Logan wanted her vote last season, she's been all but abandoned by the family.  I mean, she was negotiating for Christmas visits last season. Apparently, she didn't have custody of that holiday with them either. 

She doesn't need all that much power, she just needs enough to get by.

We see it in this episode, her fiancee wants to use Logan for his business interests, so she screws over Kendall to get Logan in a good enough mood. When you're as rich and powerful as Logan, even being on his periphery can get you serious gains. Hell, that's Greg's whole character.

[txhorns79]

30 minutes ago, Diapason Untuned said:

This is not the first time we've seen Logan weaponize this to traumatize Kendall when he thought Ken was getting too big for his britches. Logan knows it's the perfect weapon so he'll always use it. Makes me think this is the actual reason he covered it up.

It's only a perfect weapon because Kendall keeps trying to assert his moral superiority over his father.  If Kendall declines to come to terms with his own behavior, it's going to keep getting thrown in his face when he tries to act as though he is above it all.