TV Tropes: Love 'em or Loathe 'em

[Wiendish Fitch]

19 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I hate when TV dads are all weird and overprotective about their daughters dating, especially when she is an older teen or an adult. A lot of shows seem to think its funny or endearing, but its not. Even shows that have the dads get over it by the end usually play it as more funny than dickish. Its super creepy and paternalistic, and seems to say that woman just cant handle dating, and that they're so stupid and such innocent wilting flowers that they will immediately fall for any obvious asshole who crosses their path, and they need a man to protect their virtue. And when ever the dad gets the entirely reasonable response of "do you not trust me?" they say something like "I was a boy once, I know how it is." or "its them I dont trust" what the hell is that supposed to mean? Do they think that all boys are just going to, like, assault her instantly the second they dont have a chaperone around? Did he used to assault the women he was dating? What does he think these guys will DO? And that all goes under the unspoken assumption that all boys just want sex, and no girl really wants to have sex, which is damaging to both young boys and young girls. It also has this creepy "as the primary man in her life, I cant have another man around challenging me!" that has some super nasty vibes. Especially if she is a grown ass adult!

I mean, I can get a parent being concerned about a kid or teen dating, of either gender, wanting them to make good life choices, or if their kid is dating a clearly crappy person or they are obviously always fighting or something, but this usually gets played as "my little girl cant be defiled by an evil smelly man! Then she has no worth anymore!" and I hate it. I have been trying to think of many "over protective parent" examples with same sex couples, but I cant think of any that arent based in homophobia. 

 

I'm with you there. Fortunately, Harry Connick Jr. gets it.*

*Skip to :50

Edited January 9, 2019 by Wiendish Fitch

[AntiBeeSpray]

34 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

The text thing on TV shows annoys me to. 

And I also hate the overprotective dad cliché with girls.  Its not funny and agree it is creepy.

I hate that. If I'm not mistaken Sherlock uses that too much and it's too in my face.

[Jacqs]

But, how can we progress to equal parenting if some things to do with the female child are still reserved for the female parent only?

 

We can't.

[paulvdb]

8 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I hate when TV dads are all weird and overprotective about their daughters dating, especially when she is an older teen or an adult. A lot of shows seem to think its funny or endearing, but its not. Even shows that have the dads get over it by the end usually play it as more funny than dickish. Its super creepy and paternalistic, and seems to say that woman just cant handle dating, and that they're so stupid and such innocent wilting flowers that they will immediately fall for any obvious asshole who crosses their path, and they need a man to protect their virtue. And when ever the dad gets the entirely reasonable response of "do you not trust me?" they say something like "I was a boy once, I know how it is." or "its them I dont trust" what the hell is that supposed to mean? Do they think that all boys are just going to, like, assault her instantly the second they dont have a chaperone around? Did he used to assault the women he was dating? What does he think these guys will DO? And that all goes under the unspoken assumption that all boys just want sex, and no girl really wants to have sex, which is damaging to both young boys and young girls. It also has this creepy "as the primary man in her life, I cant have another man around challenging me!" that has some super nasty vibes. Especially if she is a grown ass adult!

I mean, I can get a parent being concerned about a kid or teen dating, of either gender, wanting them to make good life choices, or if their kid is dating a clearly crappy person or they are obviously always fighting or something, but this usually gets played as "my little girl cant be defiled by an evil smelly man! Then she has no worth anymore!" and I hate it. I have been trying to think of many "over protective parent" examples with same sex couples, but I cant think of any that arent based in homophobia. 

It's not just fathers. I've seen many shows where older brothers were like that.

[ABay]

Regarding the text on screen thing: The Spanish-language show I've been watching is indifferently subtitled but at least used to translate writing seen on screen, like from texts, newspapers, letters, or in one memorable case, on a dinner plate. But the last few episodes there have been extended views of texts that have not been translated and while I get the general idea from the context, I'm missing some significant information.

[Spartan Girl]

On 1/7/2019 at 7:47 AM, andromeda331 said:

Its a trope that's driving me crazy on Home Improvement of all places. When Tim makes a mistake or messes up which happens basically all the time he has to apologize and make up for it. Which he should. But when its Jill? Nope, that doesn't happen. There are so many scenes where she does the wrong thing but doesn't apologize or blames him or the show frames it that she isn't in the wrong when she clearly is. She blames him for everything that goes wrong in her life and if she wants something she gets mad when he's not on board but when he wants something she dismisses it completely. This also popped on Everyone Loves Raymond and other sitcoms and other shows in addition to HI where the couple sometimes the wife but it can be the husband (see Bewitched!) where it seems like he or she hates everything the spouse loves. Jill hates sports, tools, cars, and constantly putting down his show (which somehow makes enough money to support their entire family including her college classes and her not having to work the first dozen years they were married and five years during the show) or Debra seemed annoyed by everything Ray does and Darren seems just as annoyed by everything Samantha does which makes you wonder why they married at all or are still together.  

JFC this is exactly what The Simpsons has been doing for the last 10-15 years.  Here's a few examples:

• Saint Marge masquerades as a drag queen to sell something or other even though it's culture appropriation and just to feel good about herself.  Homer accidentally outs her when he finds out what she's been doing, and the LGBTQ members of Springfield are rightfully angry at her for being a tourist in their culture.  Does Marge own up to this?  NOPE.  She blames Homer for ruining her crushing her dreams, and everyone instantly overlooks Marge's wrongs and instead Homer is the one that has to make the Grand Gesture.
• Homer and Marge go out to dinner, and Homer does nothing more than be Homer (be more interested in eating than talking).  Marge throws a fit and freezes Homer out, and Homer has to jump through hoops to make it up to her, even though he didn't really do anything wrong.
• Homer talks during a movie.  Copy and paste previous scenario.
• Homer makes a perfectly platonic female friend and Marge throws a jealous whiny bitchfit upon discovering it.  When she finds out that this woman is no threat whatsoever (and engaged), does she apologize?  NOPE.  "Okay I was wrong, but I'm STILL right to be mad at you because you're better with this woman than you are with me."

I hate her so damn much.

Edited January 9, 2019 by Spartan Girl

[Sara2009]

18 hours ago, AntiBeeSpray said:

When the main characters aren't allowed to do much of anything when they're together. But when it's one of them with another person/being, it's alright.

 

Uh no. Just no. I hate when shows do this. X Files was particularly guilty of this one.

Could you give specific examples?

[AntiBeeSpray]

5 hours ago, Sara2009 said:

Could you give specific examples?

Sure.

 

Diana Fowley/Mulder -- they were together before, but she helped Mulder when he was sick... bringing forth that whole bed scene (yes a bad fever dream) of him and her having sex

Scully/Fake Mulder (Eddie Van Blundht) -- the whole scene of Scully almost kissing him and Mulder walking in on it

Mulder/1930's Scully -- we get a kiss, but then she punches him; and don't forget the 'I love you' Mulder says to her (the present day Scully) and her 'oh brother' back to him -- hate that scene

Scully/and the guy from Never Again -- strongly hinted at

Tad being hinted at with Scully (thankfully nothing came from that)

Scully and the Were-Monster in the Were-Monster's dream -- very strongly making out

Mulder and Agent Einstein in a scene where she dominates him (she's dressed up in a dominatrix out fit) -- Mulder was stoned at the time... on Niacin /facepalm

 

Basically /other stuff happened more than enough on the XF. Basically kind of taunting shippers. Closest we got was with IWTB (thank alien for Frank), The Truth (thank alien for Kim Manners), Existence, Millennium and All Things.

 

Everything had to be uber implied.  It's why I'm no fan of Plus One. It just taunted and teased shippers. I have no time for that.

Edited January 10, 2019 by AntiBeeSpray

[Jacqs]

11 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

JFC this is exactly what The Simpsons has been doing for the last 10-15 years.  Here's a few examples:

• Saint Marge masquerades as a drag queen to sell something or other even though it's culture appropriation and just to feel good about herself.  Homer accidentally outs her when he finds out what she's been doing, and the LGBTQ members of Springfield are rightfully angry at her for being a tourist in their culture.  Does Marge own up to this?  NOPE.  She blames Homer for ruining her crushing her dreams, and everyone instantly overlooks Marge's wrongs and instead Homer is the one that has to make the Grand Gesture.
• Homer and Marge go out to dinner, and Homer does nothing more than be Homer (be more interested in eating than talking).  Marge throws a fit and freezes Homer out, and Homer has to jump through hoops to make it up to her, even though he didn't really do anything wrong.
• Homer talks during a movie.  Copy and paste previous scenario.
• Homer makes a perfectly platonic female friend and Marge throws a jealous whiny bitchfit upon discovering it.  When she finds out that this woman is no threat whatsoever (and engaged), does she apologize?  NOPE.  "Okay I was wrong, but I'm STILL right to be mad at you because you're better with this woman than you are with me."

I hate her so damn much.

How about forcing Christianity on her family? How about pretty much saying she'll force Lisa, and presumably Maggie, to end up the decorative female ornament on the arm of a man of power?

[Spartan Girl]

Another trope that is infuriating is characters that hold childhood grudges. Kids can be horrible, but at the end of the day it happened YEARS AGO. People grow up and change! Unless it was something really bad, just LET IT GO. Trust me, you'll be happier for it.

And here I have to bring up another Simpsons example (that show really embodies all the tropes I hate) where Marge finds out Homer was the boy who stood her up as a kid and without even bothering to ask what happened or get his side of the story she automatically turns on the melodrama and says she never would have married him if she knew. And even when he explains that he didn't show up because he wound up stranded in fat camp, she still feels plays the victim because that's just the kind of person she is.

It also makes her a hypocrite for her blase attitude when Homer got upset over a breakup letter she wrote to them when they were kids. Yet another case of "when you upset Marge it's you're a terrible person, but if she does it someone else it's forgivable." Ugh.

[Blergh]

Could Marge Simpson be a trope of someone who 'can do no wrong and believes they can call everyone else on their slights- except when they DO do wrong but no one else is allowed to call THEM on it'? I have to admit I bailed on the show ages ago (though ironically stuck around a few years mainly because I liked Mrs. Simpson's voice [Julie Kavner] from way back as Rhoda's kid sister. 

[Jacqs]

I really hope Maggie goes to her senior prom in a t-shirt, ripped jeans and Doc Martens, just to spite Marge's vision of her daughter in a pretty prom dress, jewelry and a mink wrap.

Edited January 10, 2019 by Jacqs

[Wiendish Fitch]

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Another trope that is infuriating is characters that hold childhood grudges. Kids can be horrible, but at the end of the day it happened YEARS AGO. People grow up and change! Unless it was something really bad, just LET IT GO. Trust me, you'll be happier for it.

I confess I've always been conflicted about Chandler receiving his comeuppance 20 years after the fact for embarrassing classmate Susie (Julia Roberts) by lifting her skirt and showing her undies to everyone. On one hand, Chandler, that was a crappy thing to do, shame on you. But on the other hand, it was the fourth grade! And I'm just as amazed Susie didn't exact revenge on her classmates for teasing her (for wearing underpants? God, kids suck) after the incident. 

Huh, it's easy to forget how Friends allowed for shades of grey in certain situations. Good on you, Friends.

[Spartan Girl]

9 hours ago, Blergh said:

Could Marge Simpson be a trope of someone who 'can do no wrong and believes they can call everyone else on their slights- except when they DO do wrong but no one else is allowed to call THEM on it'? 

B-I-N-G-O. And even more infuriating is when such a character is regarded as a Special Snowflake.

Edited January 10, 2019 by Spartan Girl

[aradia22]

Quote

Could Marge Simpson be a trope of someone who 'can do no wrong and believes they can call everyone else on their slights- except when they DO do wrong but no one else is allowed to call THEM on it'?

This is a big problem for female characters. Male characters have their own version of this but I think shows mainly write the male protagonists as almost never being wrong. But I notice it more with female characters because I watch a lot of shows with female protagonists, especially if I'm trying to support women on the writing staff. It's a certain brand of self-righteousness. Ugly Betty was a big offender. Being Erica had this problem later in its run. Witches of East End had it but that show had a hundred other problems. I'm sure Drop Dead Diva had it but my memories of that show are hazy. Writers/showrunners do not seem to understand that while I like seeing confidence female characters stand up for themselves, I don't need strident female characters behaving irrationally and no one in universe calling them out on their BS, or at least not doing so without being strawmanned or shut down in some way. It's lazy writing. Especially as it leads to a lot of telling vs. showing writing. Where they have to tell you that the character has certain traits and they don't bother to show it to you and in fact what they do show contradicts the assertion that the characters are competent, smart, kind, loving, reasonable, etc. 

[andromeda331]

18 hours ago, Blergh said:

Could Marge Simpson be a trope of someone who 'can do no wrong and believes they can call everyone else on their slights- except when they DO do wrong but no one else is allowed to call THEM on it'? I have to admit I bailed on the show ages ago (though ironically stuck around a few years mainly because I liked Mrs. Simpson's voice [Julie Kavner] from way back as Rhoda's kid sister. 

That can definitely fit Jill from Home Improvement too. She thinks everything she says and does is exactly right, her opinions and her theories are always right no matter how insane most of them are and everyone else is wrong. When she gets pointed out that she's wrong or made a mistake she never apologizes and instead blames someone else usually her husband and when that doesn't work then its her father's fault. Nothing is her fault. She truly believes that only she can fix thing despite how many times she makes things worse. She likes to brag about how smart she is which only gets worse when she goes back to college to be a therapist.   

2 hours ago, aradia22 said:

This is a big problem for female characters. Male characters have their own version of this but I think shows mainly write the male protagonists as almost never being wrong. But I notice it more with female characters because I watch a lot of shows with female protagonists, especially if I'm trying to support women on the writing staff. It's a certain brand of self-righteousness. Ugly Betty was a big offender. Being Erica had this problem later in its run. Witches of East End had it but that show had a hundred other problems. I'm sure Drop Dead Diva had it but my memories of that show are hazy. Writers/showrunners do not seem to understand that while I like seeing confidence female characters stand up for themselves, I don't need strident female characters behaving irrationally and no one in universe calling them out on their BS, or at least not doing so without being strawmanned or shut down in some way. It's lazy writing. Especially as it leads to a lot of telling vs. showing writing. Where they have to tell you that the character has certain traits and they don't bother to show it to you and in fact what they do show contradicts the assertion that the characters are competent, smart, kind, loving, reasonable, etc. 

 This is a good point. It is great to see women standing up for themselves. Being smart, kind, competent, etc. But so often that's not what they show us. That's what they keep trying to tell us with Jill on Home Improvement but we never really see it. They also keep insisting she's going to be a great therapist but they never show us that. Instead they give us every reason that she shouldn't be one. They try to show us that she's never wrong except she is wrong a lot.  Or Regina from ONCE they keep trying to tell us that she's this poor woman who has gone through so much and has had the worse things done to her, except they show all of her crimes which include village massacres and sending children to their deaths. We see how she made so many lives so much worse then anything she ever experience. She never apologizes for or thinks she did anything wrong. They want us to see how she's changed but without showing it. Instead they tell us how great she is, she's no longer murdering people, she's friends with her victims except they purposely make sure none of her victims ever do anything but be her cheerleaders and want to be her best friend. She never gets called out on anything she's done. Or Katrina from Sleepy Hollow they kept trying to insist she was this badass witch when all they show us as being a crappy witch and always lying to Crane. Its really not fun to watch a show where everyone gets called out for their behavior or when they mess up except one person. For one thing it makes no sense. And as the show goes on you really just wonder why no one ever calls them on their crap. Show us the character is competent. 

[vibeology]

8 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

 This is a good point. It is great to see women standing up for themselves. Being smart, kind, competent, etc. But so often that's not what they show us. That's what they keep trying to tell us with Jill on Home Improvement but we never really see it. They also keep insisting she's going to be a great therapist but they never show us that. Instead they give us every reason that she shouldn't be one. They try to show us that she's never wrong except she is wrong a lot.  Or Regina from ONCE they keep trying to tell us that she's this poor woman who has gone through so much and has had the worse things done to her, except they show all of her crimes which include village massacres and sending children to their deaths. We see how she made so many lives so much worse then anything she ever experience. She never apologizes for or thinks she did anything wrong. They want us to see how she's changed but without showing it. Instead they tell us how great she is, she's no longer murdering people, she's friends with her victims except they purposely make sure none of her victims ever do anything but be her cheerleaders and want to be her best friend. She never gets called out on anything she's done. Or Katrina from Sleepy Hollow they kept trying to insist she was this badass witch when all they show us as being a crappy witch and always lying to Crane. Its really not fun to watch a show where everyone gets called out for their behavior or when they mess up except one person. For one thing it makes no sense. And as the show goes on you really just wonder why no one ever calls them on their crap. Show us the character is competent. 

I think part of the problem is that the writers/producers know that women are going to be judged differently by the audience and held to a higher standard so they double down on their female characters being good/right in an effort to combat that potential reaction. It's something that gets talked about when people look at early Star Trek Voyager. There was so much pressure on the writers to make a female captain work because she was the first, that they went out of their way to give Janeway all the wins, all the big speeches, and suggested she was right for doing something in one episode that was wrong four episodes ago. Looking back now, there seems to be an acknowledgement that the pressure to win over the male audience impacted how much depth or flaws they could give her. I think it would have been a better show if they weren't so worried about making her right.

And I don't think writers are wrong to worry. I see it all the time where the female characters are judged at a different level than the men on the same show. Breaking Bad is the obvious example. Skylar was hated by fans and considered an awful person while Walter was selling drugs and tied up in murders.

And I don't know how we get out of this cycle. Writers create female characters who need to be held up by bad writing so audiences resent female characters so the writers continue to try to write their way out of the problem

[Blergh]

OK, here's a TV Trope I hate: when someone has a headache,toothache, squints,etc. and one of their alleged friends tells the first person that they have some life-threatening condition and urges them to see a doctor- and the alleged friend winds up having been CORRECT in their sidewalk diagnosis and the the first person winds up  praising the alleged friend and profusely apologizing for any momentary hesitation re not believing the alleged friend's diagnosis. JUST ONCE, I'd like to see someone go to a physician on an alleged friend's urging, get declared to be as fit as a fiddle then the doc and patient BOTH tell the alleged friend to butt out and mind their business! 

[DrSpaceman73]

On ‎1‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 9:51 AM, Wiendish Fitch said:

I confess I've always been conflicted about Chandler receiving his comeuppance 20 years after the fact for embarrassing classmate Susie (Julia Roberts) by lifting her skirt and showing her undies to everyone. On one hand, Chandler, that was a crappy thing to do, shame on you. But on the other hand, it was the fourth grade! And I'm just as amazed Susie didn't exact revenge on her classmates for teasing her (for wearing underpants? God, kids suck) after the incident. 

Huh, it's easy to forget how Friends allowed for shades of grey in certain situations. Good on you, Friends.

"We were on a break!!!"

[aradia22]

Quote

Or Regina from ONCE they keep trying to tell us that she's this poor woman who has gone through so much and has had the worse things done to her, except they show all of her crimes which include village massacres and sending children to their deaths. We see how she made so many lives so much worse then anything she ever experience. She never apologizes for or thinks she did anything wrong. They want us to see how she's changed but without showing it. Instead they tell us how great she is, she's no longer murdering people, she's friends with her victims except they purposely make sure none of her victims ever do anything but be her cheerleaders and want to be her best friend. She never gets called out on anything she's done. 

I was once in an online chat with Jane Espenson (producer and writer of OUAT) trying to justify why I didn't think the show was that feminist and why I didn't like Emma Swan's character. Like, where do I even start? 

Quote

And I don't think writers are wrong to worry. I see it all the time where the female characters are judged at a different level than the men on the same show. Breaking Bad is the obvious example. Skylar was hated by fans and considered an awful person while Walter was selling drugs and tied up in murders.

I didn't watch Breaking Bad but I did see bits of it. I think Skylar was audience baiting. You can't write a character who's that shrewish and then wonder why the audience doesn't like her. Yes, she's right. She's not a bad person. But that doesn't change how the actress was directed to behave. (This is from me catching a few minutes from maybe 3 episodes of the show. I know there are some fans who do have negative gendered responses.) I think those kinds of twists of perception have to be carefully managed. The big example is always Psycho when you end up rooting for the villain because that's your POV character. But so many shows and movies mishandle this. You didn't get one over on the audience and expose their prejudices, weaknesses, etc. when that twist in perception was either Anvilicious or you didn't have a good grasp on the audience perception of the characters. You can't force the revelation or it feels disingenuous. Like, I didn't react poorly to that character because I resent female characters who aren't quiet and good and who don't bother their husbands. I reacted badly because you told her to act like an asshole. I wish I could remember the one that happens in Chicago (I think it's more the musical than the movie). 

[ganesh]

Yeah that was kind of the point of the show. They wrote it so you were rooting for Walt, so by and large, all the other characters are going to be seen as adversaries and it was audience baiting. I think that's why they ended up getting Skylar 'in on it'. It's no surprise her best scenes were when she's buying and running the car wash and spinning the story about Walt's 'gambling problem.' 

[Shannon L.]

On 1/11/2019 at 9:16 AM, Blergh said:

OK, here's a TV Trope I hate: when someone has a headache,toothache, squints,etc. and one of their alleged friends tells the first person that they have some life-threatening condition and urges them to see a doctor- and the alleged friend winds up having been CORRECT in their sidewalk diagnosis and the the first person winds up  praising the alleged friend and profusely apologizing for any momentary hesitation re not believing the alleged friend's diagnosis. JUST ONCE, I'd like to see someone go to a physician on an alleged friend's urging, get declared to be as fit as a fiddle then the doc and patient BOTH tell the alleged friend to butt out and mind their business! 

This is typically true, but one of my favorite episodes of WKRP in Cincinnati had Johnnie convinced that he was dying because Les told him that he had some horrible disease based on a few simple symptoms. Later, he told Les that the doctor told him it was just a cold (which lead to another funny moment, but it's not important to this particular point).  

Edited January 13, 2019 by Shannon L.

[Anela]

1 hour ago, aradia22 said:

I was once in an online chat with Jane Espenson (producer and writer of OUAT) trying to justify why I didn't think the show was that feminist and why I didn't like Emma Swan's character. Like, where do I even start? 

I didn't watch Breaking Bad but I did see bits of it. I think Skylar was audience baiting. You can't write a character who's that shrewish and then wonder why the audience doesn't like her. Yes, she's right. She's not a bad person. But that doesn't change how the actress was directed to behave. (This is from me catching a few minutes from maybe 3 episodes of the show. I know there are some fans who do have negative gendered responses.) I think those kinds of twists of perception have to be carefully managed. The big example is always Psycho when you end up rooting for the villain because that's your POV character. But so many shows and movies mishandle this. You didn't get one over on the audience and expose their prejudices, weaknesses, etc. when that twist in perception was either Anvilicious or you didn't have a good grasp on the audience perception of the characters. You can't force the revelation or it feels disingenuous. Like, I didn't react poorly to that character because I resent female characters who aren't quiet and good and who don't bother their husbands. I reacted badly because you told her to act like an asshole. I wish I could remember the one that happens in Chicago (I think it's more the musical than the movie). 

I defended Skylar all the time, until she wasn't Jessie killed. All to protect her family. I remember an ex-friend talking about what a bitch she was - um, she was lied to consistently, by her husband, who was cooking and selling meth, putting her family in danger as well. Not just him. I didn't think she was awful. 

I am currently watching what I suppose is Twilight for adults. A Discovery of Witches. Woman is a powerful witch, who tries to be normal. Man is an ancient vampire who lusts after her blood - and then her. I didn't make my way through the very dramatic first book, I hated it as much as twilight, so I don't know why I started to watch this. Of course he assigns people to watch over her, even though she's a grown woman who can take care of herself. 

[Silver Raven]

I just saw a trope in action on a soap.  Any time a couple are cooking together, they will inevitably spill food on each other.

[ganesh]

Or the man will have a pot on the stove that inevitably boils over. Because men can't cook right?

[CoderLady]

Which reminds me of another one that makes my jaws tight: food fights. After the couple spills food on each other they just let loose and start flinging it at each other, giggling madly all the while gobs of greasy, gooey stuff fly through the air. And why does being willing to behave like unsupervised toddlers signal romantic happiness? Not everyone has a production crew come in and clean up between takes, you morons.

[ganesh]

Plus it's an absolute waste of food. 

[andromeda331]

Whether married or just a couple when ever the woman spends any time with another man or the man spends any time with a woman the person they are seeing flips out and worries that they are going to cheat. It doesn't matter if they are working together or friends, or helping them in someway. Nope, they'll be followed and spied on by their spouse, boyfriend or girlfriend watching for any or all signs that they are cheating. Laughing? Worry. Any sort of touching no matter how innocent. Worry. When they are with their spouse, boyfriend or girlfriend they won't stop talking about then spending time with that other person, getting mad at them or trying to find out everything that happened. And yet they never get ticked off at their husband or wife accusing them of cheating or not being trusted. Most of the time at the end they just laugh it up or get relieved when that person turns out to be gay. Similar usually towards the wife or girlfriend is the 'I trust you but I don't trust him' right. So then why don't you trust her to handle it if they get asked out? It rarely ends up with the person rightfully getting ticked off at not being trusted and going off on their partner or breaking up because it is clear that their partner doesn't trust them.

[ganesh]

That's because just about everyone on TV is terrible at relationships and insecure. I can think of 3 total that were healthy and they were on scifi shows. 

[Spartan Girl]

Yeah, the only time I think it's understandable for a person to have trust issues with a relationship is when 1) their spouse really IS cheating or 2) if everyone including said spouse has the "oh they can do so much better than you but they're only with you because that's what a saintly person they are" attitude (which is another trope I hate). I mean who WOULDN'T be insecure with that getting that rubbed in their face all the time.

[ChromaKelly]

On 1/11/2019 at 4:47 PM, ganesh said:

Or the man will have a pot on the stove that inevitably boils over. Because men can't cook right?

Don't forget not having the lid on the blender on tight or using a mixer and stuff spraying everywhere.

[DrSpaceman73]

On ‎1‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 4:42 PM, Silver Raven said:

I just saw a trope in action on a soap.  Any time a couple are cooking together, they will inevitably spill food on each other.

And one of them will turn to the other to "taste test" something on a big wooden spoon as they lovingly look into each others eyes. 

[Bastet]

1 minute ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

And one of them will turn to the other to "taste test" something on a big wooden spoon as they lovingly look into each others eyes. 

And it will always need more salt.  Sometimes oregano, and usually that leads to an argument that their recipe is famous and needs no adjustment.  Then why did you ask?

[ganesh]

Always needs more salt. It's literally the only ingredient used on tv. 

[DrSpaceman73]

33 minutes ago, ganesh said:

Always needs more salt. It's literally the only ingredient used on tv. 

Yep

At least once I would like to see them write something like :

"needs more sugar"

"But I don't have any sugar"

"Well I will give you some"

[Silver Raven]

On 1/11/2019 at 2:25 PM, CoderLady said:

Which reminds me of another one that makes my jaws tight: food fights. After the couple spills food on each other they just let loose and start flinging it at each other, giggling madly all the while gobs of greasy, gooey stuff fly through the air. And why does being willing to behave like unsupervised toddlers signal romantic happiness? Not everyone has a production crew come in and clean up between takes, you morons.

Oh, yeah, that happened on the soap I mentioned above, though only one fling, not a full in food fight.

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

And it will always need more salt.  Sometimes oregano, and usually that leads to an argument that their recipe is famous and needs no adjustment.  Then why did you ask?

The soap had the man ask the woman if she preferred to have the sauce mixed in with the pasta or served separately.  She said separately.  So when they showed the food, it was mixed in.

[Brookside]

3 hours ago, ChromaKelly said:

Don't forget not having the lid on the blender on tight or using a mixer and stuff spraying everywhere.

 

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

Always needs more salt. It's literally the only ingredient used on tv. 

These are the two things that inevitably, and infuriatingly, happen on "real life" cooking shows.  What don't people understand about lids and blenders? And why do judges insist on calling salt "seasoning"?  They don't mean the same thing.

Edited January 13, 2019 by Brookside

[tennisgurl]

On fantasy or science fiction shows, there is the weirdly specific "person pretends to be the significant other of someone and has sex with them" trope, which isnt so bad in and of itself if its played as something horrible and violating, as its rape by fraud and very much illegal and morally repugnant as that person did not give consent to have sex with this person...but it hardly ever is. For whatever reason, its considered a mild annoyance, or the show acts like the person who was raped is the bad guy and they "cheated" on their actual partner, or, even more weirdly specific, its a chance to have the rapist get pregnant or the good girl gets pregnant and have HER/HIM become a good guy because she/he is now a mom/dad to the baby of a hero/her rape victim. Like, the fuck? Its so gross, I cant even deal with it anymore. I get why people are sick of shows using rape as a cheap way to advance characters and plots, but its possibly even worse when the writers dont even realize they wrote a rape scene! I just feel like writers should know better by now. 

Once Upon A Time (a show that has a very disturbing that of understanding about consent in general) had this as a major arc, where villain Zelena pretended to be the wife of good guy Robin, who she murdered and replaced with magic, had sex with him while he thought she was his wife, and she got pregnant. No one seems to notice that this is rape, he never has much of a chance to actually be upset with her for raping him, its more about how his girlfriend Regina is upset about her boyfriend having a baby with someone else, and when resident Mary Sue Regina decides that Zelena is a good guy and a mom now, she tells Robin to get over any bad feelings he had towards her, and be ready to share custody of their daughter. 

With almost the exact same plot was Grimm, which had hero Nick having sex with bad guy Adelaide while she was disguised as his girlfriend Juliet. Instead of this being treated as Nick being raped by a woman he hates, everyone acts like HE is the asshole for somehow not knowing that Juliette wasn't Juliette, and he gets blamed for her eventually turn to darkness. And then it turns out she got pregnant, he ends up raising a kid and living with his rapist, who he kind of falls for, who is now a good guy, without anyone ever acknowledging what happened was rape! Again, the fuck?  

Edited January 14, 2019 by tennisgurl

[kathyk24]

7 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

On fantasy or science fiction shows, there is the weirdly specific "person pretends to be the significant other of someone and has sex with them" trope, which isnt so bad in and of itself if its played as something horrible and violating, as its rape by fraud and very much illegal and morally repugnant as that person did not give consent to have sex with this person...but it hardly ever is. For whatever reason, its considered a mild annoyance, or the show acts like the person who was raped is the bad guy and they "cheated" on their actual partner, or, even more weirdly specific, its a chance to have the rapist get pregnant or the good girl gets pregnant and have HER/HIM become a good guy because she/he is now a mom/dad to the baby of a hero/her rape victim. Like, the fuck? Its so gross, I cant even deal with it anymore. I get why people are sick of shows using rape as a cheap way to advance characters and plots, but its possibly even worse when the writers dont even realize they wrote a rape scene! I just feel like writers should know better by now. 

Once Upon A Time (a show that has a very disturbing that of understanding about consent in general) had this as a major arc, where villain Zelena pretended to be the wife of good guy Robin, who she murdered and replaced with magic, had sex with him while he thought she was his wife, and she got pregnant. No one seems to notice that this is rape, he never has much of a chance to actually be upset with her for raping him, its more about how his girlfriend Regina is upset about her boyfriend having a baby with someone else, and when resident Mary Sue Regina decides that Zelena is a good guy and a mom now, she tells Robin to get over any bad feelings he had towards her, and be ready to share custody of their daughter. 

With almost the exact same plot was Grimm, which had hero Nick having sex with bad guy Adelaide while she was disguised as his girlfriend Juliet. Instead of this being treated as Nick being raped by a woman he hates, everyone acts like HE is the asshole for somehow not knowing that Juliette wasn't Juliette, and he gets blamed for her eventually turn to darkness. And then it turns out she got pregnant, he ends up raising a kid and living with his rapist, who he kind of falls for, who is now a good guy, without anyone ever acknowledging what happened was rape! Again, the fuck?  

I agree with you. It bothered me that the Grimm writers pretended the sex between Adalind and Nick was consensual. She pretended to be Juliette Nick hated Adalind. He wouldn't have slept with her of his own free will.

[andromeda331]

17 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

On fantasy or science fiction shows, there is the weirdly specific "person pretends to be the significant other of someone and has sex with them" trope, which isnt so bad in and of itself if its played as something horrible and violating, as its rape by fraud and very much illegal and morally repugnant as that person did not give consent to have sex with this person...but it hardly ever is. For whatever reason, its considered a mild annoyance, or the show acts like the person who was raped is the bad guy and they "cheated" on their actual partner, or, even more weirdly specific, its a chance to have the rapist get pregnant or the good girl gets pregnant and have HER/HIM become a good guy because she/he is now a mom/dad to the baby of a hero/her rape victim. Like, the fuck? Its so gross, I cant even deal with it anymore. I get why people are sick of shows using rape as a cheap way to advance characters and plots, but its possibly even worse when the writers dont even realize they wrote a rape scene! I just feel like writers should know better by now. 

Once Upon A Time (a show that has a very disturbing that of understanding about consent in general) had this as a major arc, where villain Zelena pretended to be the wife of good guy Robin, who she murdered and replaced with magic, had sex with him while he thought she was his wife, and she got pregnant. No one seems to notice that this is rape, he never has much of a chance to actually be upset with her for raping him, its more about how his girlfriend Regina is upset about her boyfriend having a baby with someone else, and when resident Mary Sue Regina decides that Zelena is a good guy and a mom now, she tells Robin to get over any bad feelings he had towards her, and be ready to share custody of their daughter. 

With almost the exact same plot was Grimm, which had hero Nick having sex with bad guy Adelaide while she was disguised as his girlfriend Juliet. Instead of this being treated as Nick being raped by a woman he hates, everyone acts like HE is the asshole for somehow not knowing that Juliette wasn't Juliette, and he gets blamed for her eventually turn to darkness. And then it turns out she got pregnant, he ends up raising a kid and living with his rapist, who he kind of falls for, who is now a good guy, without anyone ever acknowledging what happened was rape! Again, the fuck?  

 

God yes! That is rape. It still counts as rape. Its not cheating, or funny or a minor annoyance or whatever. Its rape. Magically turning yourself into a wife or girlfriend to have sex with that person is rape. Anything that is not soberly or clear of mind consenting to sex is rape. Trick, disguise, magic, potions, whatever is rape. WishHook was also raped in season seven that one even though it was never treated as rape. Going way, way back to the late 70s and early 80s on SOAP Mary having sex with Alien Burt but thought it was her husband Burt because he turned himself into Burt. That too counts as rape. It wasn't treated as it either. ONCE ticks me off the most they had three rape victims and never once treated as such. Even after they got so much grief from Regina raping Graham they go ahead with two more rapes.

Edited January 14, 2019 by andromeda331

[Silver Raven]

The soap opera Days of Our Lives had heroine/vixen Sami in love with FBI agent Rafe, but bad guy Stefano found a Rafe lookalike, kidnapped Rafe, and replaced him with the lookalike.  Sami slept with him.  And nobody, not even Sami, thought it was rape by deception.

[HazelEyes4325]

43 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

On fantasy or science fiction shows, there is the weirdly specific "person pretends to be the significant other of someone and has sex with them" trope, which isnt so bad in and of itself if its played as something horrible and violating, as its rape by fraud and very much illegal and morally repugnant as that person did not give consent to have sex with this person...but it hardly ever is. For whatever reason, its considered a mild annoyance, or the show acts like the person who was raped is the bad guy and they "cheated" on their actual partner, or, even more weirdly specific, its a chance to have the rapist get pregnant or the good girl gets pregnant and have HER/HIM become a good guy because she/he is now a mom/dad to the baby of a hero/her rape victim. Like, the fuck? Its so gross, I cant even deal with it anymore. I get why people are sick of shows using rape as a cheap way to advance characters and plots, but its possibly even worse when the writers dont even realize they wrote a rape scene! I just feel like writers should know better by now. 

 

 

5

This is one of my big things, not just with television but also in books and movies.  

I think there is actually great value in showing horrible things such as rape as long as they are treated as such.  My husband and I are horribly behind (like, several seasons) with Vikings, so I hope what I'm about to say is not contradicted by something that happened after we paused our watching.  Anyway, in that show, there are rapes, but they are considered to be horrible things--probably more horrible than actual Vikings would have seen them. In Harlots there is a sort of amazing scene where one of the main characters, a prostitute, publicly calls out her keeper for raping her.  One on hand, it was historically inaccurate because that was not really how rape was defined in the time (which is not to say that it wasn't horrible!  It only means that if someone spoke of rape in the mid-eighteenth century, this would not be the scenario they would consider), but I felt the show was right (and brave) to address it in modern terms to call out the severity of what happened.

On the flip side of the coin, we have Grimm (and countless romance novels from the 80s, but that's a different story) where they very clearly have a character rape another (and, also let's not forget that this was the 2nd or 3rd rape committed by this character) and use it as a romantic device.  We can put aside the entire absurdity it created of two characters who hate each, but in a way where they aren't "obsessed" with each other, suddenly fall in love and just look at what the show did.  It celebrated rape.  

When the #metoo movement started, I saw a comment by someone involved with the show (I'm not exactly sure how she was involved--I think she was married to one of the showrunners and had sort of an honorary producer title?) about how important it was that Hollywood was finally recognizing this yada yada yada and all I could think was "you effing hypocrite."  

Storytelling is such a potent tool and to see it misused in such a way as to minimize these horrible violations and, in some cases, celebrate them just makes my blood boil.

Edited January 14, 2019 by HazelEyes4325

[Jacqs]

I personally think it's wrong for say, Dr Who's Rose Tyler to barge into Victorian Wales and start 21st century feminist consciousness raising with no regard for Gwyneth and Sneed's different circumstances,

As a CS Lewis fan and historian: He's actually being fair for his day with Calormen, and as for Polly Plummer always being interested in dresses,,, Lewis grew up in Polly's time period and girls and women almost never wore trousers, let alone shorts. He also had lady friends he could ask when writing the Magicians Nephew so the image of a clueless sexist doesn't match reality.

[aradia22]

Quote

Most of the time at the end they just laugh it up or get relieved when that person turns out to be gay. Similar usually towards the wife or girlfriend is the 'I trust you but I don't trust him' right. So then why don't you trust her to handle it if they get asked out? It rarely ends up with the person rightfully getting ticked off at not being trusted and going off on their partner or breaking up because it is clear that their partner doesn't trust them.

I think this is a difference between comedy and drama. In the comedy, it all works out and there's no reason to be jealous because usually comedy is kind of conservative in that it's about preserving the status quo, especially on kids shows or family sitcoms. In a drama, there usually is a reason to be jealous and there is often an affair because angst. I get that sometimes there needs to be shorthand. Like the infamous "a character coughs to foreshadow the illness that will kill them." But it's like the writers don't think through the implications or they just fall into old patterns because it's what they've seen before.

Quote

On the flip side of the coin, we have Grimm (and countless romance novels from the 80s, but that's a different story) where they very clearly have a character rape another (and, also let's not forget that this was the 2nd or 3rd rape committed by this character) and use it as a romantic device. 

I feel like this is why you should hire younger people or people who just aren't insane to be editors or consultants. I assume these sorts of plotlines come about for two reasons. 1) The writers have stopped seeing the characters as real people so much as dolls they move around for the sake of the plot. Or 2) They don't think problematic things are problematic. I think one of the big dangers in writing is exposing all your prejudices, biases, internalized misogyny, etc. 

[Broken Ox]

7 hours ago, Silver Raven said:

The soap opera Days of Our Lives had heroine/vixen Sami in love with FBI agent Rafe, but bad guy Stefano found a Rafe lookalike, kidnapped Rafe, and replaced him with the lookalike.  Sami slept with him.  And nobody, not even Sami, thought it was rape by deception.

Same on The Young and the Restless with Jack and Phyllis. 

[andromeda331]

I think there were two of them on Passions one being Kay to Miguel, I think the other was Theresa and Ethan? I think Theresa dressed up as Gwen and drugged his drink while Kay used magic to look like Charity? There might but one more that I don't remember.

[scarynikki12]

11 hours ago, Silver Raven said:

The soap opera Days of Our Lives had heroine/vixen Sami in love with FBI agent Rafe, but bad guy Stefano found a Rafe lookalike, kidnapped Rafe, and replaced him with the lookalike.  Sami slept with him.  And nobody, not even Sami, thought it was rape by deception.

She did call it rape during a confrontation with Stefano but Days forgot about it soon after. 

[Domenicholas]

There was also the situation in Days where EJ rapes Sami before he would help her save Lucas and then became her love interest soon after.

[Picture It. Sicily]

And, of course, Sami drugged and raped Lucas and no one treated that like rape.

[GHScorpiosRule]

42 minutes ago, Picture It. Sicily said:

And, of course, Sami drugged and raped Lucas and no one treated that like rape.

Not just Lucas. But also his older brother, whose name I'm blanking on.

And Jax's rape was treated as a joke and thrown in his face as cheating on that SheBeast on General Hospital.