S01.E10: Hostile Witness

[Empress Josephine]

First time posting in this forum section. But I think the last few moments saved the episode. I must admit, Jeanette had me fooled and I feel really dumb for falling for her performance. I knew she had a personality disorder and is creepy regardless because that much is obvious but I did not think she was actually guilty of what Kate said.

As for why she is back with Jamie, I think that is also obvious. She is fixated on possessing him as though having him reaffirms something about her and the way she wants to be perceived by others. I think she is only cares about the idea of him much in the same way that she only wanted to be Kate because it makes her feel 'special'. People are just objects to her and I think the value of Jamie lies solely in the fact that he is Kate's ex. Or perhaps he was always the main target/obsession and Kate was only useful to study and copy but had to be removed. Jeanette probably wants to eventually marry him like her parents got married after being high school sweethearts. The way she was dressing in 'Old Kate Walsh cosplay' for the interview shows that she wants to be perceived as that 'Belle type' old Kate was raised to be. Jamie once wanted to marry that verison Kate and settle down with her. Jeanette wants to be that girl for him. She likes to switch on that vunerable 'I just want everyone to like me' act with him and all those demure smiles.

I thought his punching her was one of the most brutal scenes in this show. But I came to the conclusion that Jeanette doesn't care. She wants him in her life no matter what and puts him on a pedestal because it feeds into her idealized self. 

[starri]

You know, I've been burned enough to expect a show that's so plot heavy to not be able to land the plane in the end.  This tied up basically all the loose ends, and with aplomb.  And yeah, I'm totally fine Kate and Mallory, because I think they'd been setting it up the whole time.

That great cover of "Disarm" was sung by Olivia Holt.  She's got a nice voice.

[Cranberry]

Wow! I was all set to say, "No villains besides Martin Harris, just like I wanted!" and then that final scene with Jeanette happened. It didn't feel out of place, though; her behavior has been just sketchy enough to make that scene believable. We still don't know why the cops visited Martin so long after Kate's disappearance or why he assumed they'd come back with a warrant, though, so maybe this is another misdirect and Jeanette did actually tip someone off.

Kudos to those who realized that 1993 Kate seeing Jeanette on Mallory's bike would come into play later! I'm glad that Mallory didn't realize it was Kate she saw until after Kate's rescue, though. Knowingly leaving Kate there wouldn't have been true to Mallory's character, and it would be awful if 1995 Kate lost her best friend. I'm not sure what to think of their kiss. On the one hand it could have simply been an expression of joy between friends (I'll take people's word for it that straight girls in the '90s did that), but on the other, those two had several moments throughout the past few episodes where it seemed like they were going to kiss... so it could go either way. Maybe the showrunner is waiting to see the audience reaction.

Glad we ended on a hopeful note for Vince and Ben, too. I'm glad they didn't get traumatically outed and it was just Ben's fear and despair getting in the way.

I figured Annabelle was a gun and not some out-of-the-blue split personality or secret accomplice or whatever, so I was happy with that reveal. Jeanette was right when she said that Kate is lucky her secrets died with Martin, because that shooting wasn't really self defense, although I can't blame Kate.

I hate Jamie and I hate that Jeanette took him back, but again, it makes sense. She's trying to get her 1994 life back. (Jamie did redeem himself a little by being cool about Ben's sexuality, though. I'll give him that.)

All in all, I'm satisfied. I'll be back for season two.

[JenE4]

I’m a little disappointed that you all are so good and figured out all of the twists! I thought the finale was a little weak just because the cast/show runners made it seem like there was some big reveal no one would see coming, literally while commenting on the theories that were actually true, like Annabelle is the gun. I mean, I guess they didn’t want to blow it, but come on! That was just poor writing to throw in the explanation for “the shootout” as the news getting it wrong when it was the show that lied as an attempted misdirect. Though, the one audible shot and Kate being an expert marksman made most of us figure out there wasn’t a “shootout” and that Kate likely shot him. But how is it a storyline that she doesn’t remember shooting him?? The police would have told her that she did. And if you know that she shot someone, how is knowing the name of the gun the big thing to get held up on? That’s just kind of stupid. But maybe it would have been a more shocking twist if we didn’t already assume the gun stuff going into the finale.

If you wanted more evidence that Jeanette was trying to take over Kate’s life, look no further than the exact recreation in outfits and wording to Kate’s TV interview. I don’t think there’s any room for interpretation that she didn’t just leave Kate to rot. Jeanette still had her wavy hair, so it almost seemed like this was very early on and what made her realize she could take Kate’s life. So this might be the moment where she made that determination and went all-in after Jaimie and Kate’s friends. Based on what she was wearing, it was warmer weather, so maybe spring 94 is when Jeanette decided to “become Kate” and was with Jamie for just a couple of months before Kate was found in June. [ETA: I’m wrong. She already had her makeover. It was curlier than she normally wore it in 94, but it was still more stylized than the frizzy do, so she “had her life” already and chose to keep it.]

 But, at the end, both girls were happy to “switch lives” with each other. Jeanette finally was “redeemed” in the public eye—becoming not only popular within Skylin but America’s Sweetheart, and Kate was just as happy to give up all of her popularity and have her one good friend, Mallory, just like Jeanette started with. The mirror imagery complete: They become mirror images of each other.

Edited June 16, 2021 by JenE4

[Spartan Girl]

8 hours ago, Chicken Wing said:

Also, I'm not quite sure how the show expects me to feel about Jeanette getting back with the boy who punched her in the face.

Well, look at it this way: he’s a jerk and she’s a sociopath. They deserve each other.

[cardigirl]

Well, thank goodness for that final scene or I would have had to throw my remote at the tv. Glad to see that Jeanette is a creep for real.

Not sure what to make of this series. It did pull me in until the final two episodes, where it looked like it was going to turn into a misunderstanding all the way around type of thing. But they saved it in the end. Kind of shocked to learn that Kate killed Martin. 

Kudos to all who guessed that Annabelle was a gun. 

[BingeyKohan]

One hand-wavey thing I still get (pointlessly) hung up on is how, if Kate’s story was basement from day one, no one ever pressed her on the physical impossibility of locking eyes with someone through a basement window much higher than eye level? This never came up in the trial prep process? I can’t remember if Jeanette ever made an off hand comment about that detail making Kate’s story vulnerable, at least in the public mind.

[starri]

Wasn’t there a window, albeit into the back yard?  It was high up, but she could have been standing on something. I can go with that. 
 

The scene of Jeanette and Kate in the basement with all their reflections was beautifully framed. 

[BingeyKohan]

8 minutes ago, starri said:

 

Wasn’t there a window, albeit into the back yard?  It was high up, but she could have been standing on something. I can go with that. 
 

 

But imagine that whoever Kate was accusing had confessed (which in Kate’s mind would have been a possibility) and they admitted, yep I saw you - but you weren’t in the basement … so what was up with that? Kate then has to explain things she didn’t want public.

ETA idk why I’m nitpicking I really did love the show 

Edited June 16, 2021 by BingeyKohan

[waving feather]

Jeanette was telling Kate the truth when she told Kate that all she ever wanted was to know how it felt like to be in the spotlight/popular like Kate. Kate probably didn't expect to what extent Jeanette was willing to go in order for that to happen or how crazy she was.

Unfortunately for Jeanette, throughout the show, it has been made clear (at least to me) that people are drawn to Kate because she is kind and gracious.

Kate and Mallory's conversation at the therapist office summed it up for me.
Mallory: Can I confess something? I used to really dislike you, like a lot.
Kate: I don't hear that very often.
Mallory: Yeah, I'm starting to get why.

I am glad for the slight twist at the end, if not this episode was going to be such a let down and predictable.

[waving feather]

8 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Would a sociopath have called in the tip, though?

Did I miss it where they said she called in a tip?

[Chaos Theory]

I was calling Jeannett's behavior as full on creepy for awhile.  I thought the pinacle was when she dumped Mallory as a friend.  The whole thing looked strange to me.  Jeannette was jumping at the seams and just couldn't understand why Mallory wasn't happy for her.  She got to get close to Kate's mother.  Mallory getting in trouble was small news compared to that.      

After the bike stuff I feared the show would go with big bad evil Mallory.   I am glad it didn't.    There was no evidence to support that and would make an otherwise well written show turn into a last minute "GOTCHA" show.  There was evidence of Jeannette being a growing narcassist and a stalker breaking in and out of Martin's house and being obsessed with both him and Kate.  

That made sense.  

 

Edited June 16, 2021 by Chaos Theory

[Chicken Wing]

It's almost kind of silly how this whole case, this whole misunderstanding could have been cleared up in five minutes if the girls had just had one conversation, if Kate had told the truth from the start about where exactly she saw Jeanette. The bike thing would have come out immediately. But since Kate couldn't say where she saw Jeanette without revealing the truth about where she herself was, I guess the only way this was ever going to happen was if her own story had gotten busted and she had no choice but to admit being in the living room.

[absnow54]

I'm wondering if next season will fill in the final six months (times 3) missing from the timeline. We saw Jeanette distancing herself from her old life, but we never saw the phase of her assuming Kate's life, and we still have a few secrets floating around -- that Kate killed Martin (and there was some amount of cover up to produce "the shootout", and that Jeanette heard Kate locked in the basement. I would like to see some of those gaps cleared up, but at the same time, I don't want to revisit Kate's time as Martin's captive. That part of the story is so hard to watch.

I don't know how I feel about the Kate/Mallory kiss. For one, the actresses have the best chemistry out of any of the pairings presented (with the exception of Kate's sister and Jeanette's brother, maybe) and the scene at the roller rink of her happily accepting a green ring pop from Mallory juxtaposed against her ambivalently accepting a promise ring from Jamie had definite implications. But at the same time, I really liked their friendship, and worry about how this could complicate their friendship while Kate is still recovering. I will say, it felt like a gut punch when they revealed that Mallory was the one who saw her, even though this board called it after the second episode, because I'd become so attached to their friendship. I'm glad they didn't turn Mallory into a villain for a big twist ending, and gave a rational explanation for it. I was afraid that they were going to reveal that Mallory saw Kate in the window when she was filming Martin trip for her blooper reel, and it was going to be a long drawn out montage of all the times she knew Kate was there, so thank you show!

[JenE4]

1 hour ago, waving feather said:

Did I miss it where they said she called in a tip?

You did not. This is like the whole “Where did Martin buy tampons?” discussion taking a life of its own, even though there was no basis for it within the confines of the show. I think the assumption was that Martin told Kate that the cops stopped by and that’s what prompted him to “introduce her to Annabelle.” And that since the show ended with Jeanette actually knowing that Kate was in the basement that maybe that’s why the police showed up because she was a good samaritan after all. But that speculation makes no sense because if that were true, she not only would have told Kate then but told the police, the lawyer, and the lady on TV, and anyone else who would listen for more than a year, that she was the one who saved Kate. Not only that, but she could have just literally opened the door and let her out. They specifically showed us her contemplating opening the door and choosing not to. They didn’t use the song “Creep” for no reason. Jeanette was a creep who didn’t help Kate so she could “assume her life” all along.

Edited June 16, 2021 by JenE4

[Cheyanne11]

Wow, they got me.  I had figured out most of the "twists" (the gun, Mallory being the one Kate thought saw her), but that last scene really brought it home.  Jeanette actually was the 'bad guy' all along, and yet no one will ever know it.  Creep, indeed.

[BingeyKohan]

Sort of like 'the americans' using 'with or without you' in their finale -- the music here was a little bit on the nose but also so undeniably perfect I can't complain about that. 

Edited June 16, 2021 by BingeyKohan

[Spartan Girl]

Can’t believe how much hate Mallory is still getting on Twitter. Jeanette heard Kate was in the basement and did nothing but smile, and yet Mallory is the bitch and should be arrested even though she didn’t even know the girl in the window was Kate and clearly felt horrible about it after??

People are blaming her for keeping quiet and ruining Jeanette’s life, but Mallory probably assumed Jeanette broke into the house after Christmas Eve and saw her after that. She knew what kind of person Jeanette had become—and she was right.

[Chaos Theory]

1 minute ago, Spartan Girl said:

Can’t believe how much hate Mallory is still getting on Twitter. Jeanette heard Kate was in the basement and did nothing but smile, and yet Mallory is the bitch and should be arrested even though she didn’t even know the girl in the window was Kate and clearly felt horrible about it after??

People are blaming her for keeping quiet and ruining Jeanette’s life, but Mallory probably assumed Jeanette broke into the house after Christmas Eve and saw her after that. She knew what kind of person Jeanette had become—and she was right.

Yeah I tried to defend Mallory a few times and I got outright flamed.  Someone actually called me a horrible person for thinking Mallory wasn’t the villain of the story equal to Martin and I should be arrested myself,   I kinda stopped after that.   People are weird.  My point has always been their was no actual evidence of Mallory doing anything wrong except maybe being a bit of a bully to Jeanette in 93.  Jeanette on the other hand was perfectly willing to drop Mallory at the first opportunity and looking back she was already stalking both Kate and Martin at this point at least passively.    And yeah now we know Jeanette did know Kate was in the basement later.  People are making excuses for her.  Jamie gets to have his moment.     Heck even Martin has his defenders.    But Mallory it’s all hate all the time.

[Irlandesa]

The one thing that goes against the "Mallory assumed Jeanette saw Kate because she broke into Martin's house often"  theory is that people were upfront about the date this supposedly happened,  IIRC.  So Mallory, at some point, should have realized Kate was mistaking her for Jeanette and Kate wasn't in the basement.  She just let Jeanette take the fall.

Edited June 16, 2021 by Irlandesa

[Eliot]

2 hours ago, waving feather said:

Did I miss it where they said she called in a tip?

No; I'm not sure where that theory came from. It makes no sense.

Quote

But since Kate couldn't say where she saw Jeanette without revealing the truth about where she herself was, I guess the only way this was ever going to happen was if her own story had gotten busted and she had no choice but to admit being in the living room.

Which kind of gets to my whole issue with the premise. Why did Kate even bother to publicly accuse Jeanette of "seeing" her, when she *wasn't* trapped in the basement but was freely moving around the house, talking on the phone, etc.? Why even bring it up? Why get mad about it? Why make it a thing at all? If it *had* been Jeanette who saw her and Jeanette had admitted it, she would have also been able to say that Kate had free run of the house. So what was the point?

Edited June 16, 2021 by Eliot

[CarpeFelis]

10 hours ago, TattleTeeny said:

I don’t think she’d have called in a tip; I feel like that last scene was meant to tell us that she did knowingly leave Kate there for personal gain and didn’t care. Martin said the cops had been there before and would likely come back, so maybe that’s what happened. Or maybe Kate called. 

How could Kate possibly have called at that point? She was locked in the basement.

[Irlandesa]

6 minutes ago, Eliot said:

No; I'm not sure where that theory came from. It makes no sense.

 

It's just spec based on the timing of when Jeanette heard Kate and when the cops started interrogating Martin even though Kate had been missing a year.  We don't know why that was.

[SnarkEnthusiast]

Whoa. What I anticipated was going to be a disappointingly anti-climactic finale filled with plodding court scenes smashed my expectations in the best way possible. That final theme gave me chills and I really wasn’t expecting it. (In addition to being another fantastic 90s cover, “I wanna be special, I’m a creep“ is basically Jeanette’s life motto. And unrelated, but I loved her outfit!)

Olivia Holt was in an entirety different stratosphere this episode in terms of acting. That basement flashback was downright harrowing, and her gut wrenching delivery of “Are you gonna take mine?” was shattering. Her anguish was palpable and you could really feel every emotion she had been through. For a minute, you almost forgot she survived the ordeal. The Annabelle payoff was so much more intense than I could’ve ever imagined. Like some people here, I just assumed she was going to be some imaginary friend that Kate invented in the basement to cope. My one nitpick is that there’s no way the cops would just assume they shot someone they found with a gun shot wound in a house that they entered. They don’t even take responsibility for the people they do shoot on camera! But the show is so well done that I am expecting it to come back as a Chekhov’s boomerang next season, like somebody paid off the cops to say that he died in a shoot out to protect Kate. Also they would be able to tell that he had undergone rigor mortis for like eight hours but whatever, moving on. 

I wish that Kate and Ashley had had even one scene together after the chat log reveal, given how much the conflict was built up and the fact that they devoted an entire episode to depicting their relationship. Why get us emotionally invested in a big betrayal like that if you aren’t even going to include the actress in the last episode?

Speaking of betrayal, that "Mallory saw Kate" twist came out of nowhere (to me anyway) and was resolved in about five minutes. Harley did a serviceable job with the reveal, but it really came off as amateur hour when you contrast it with Olivia in the basement. I was incredibly surprised to see them kiss after all, mostly because shows usually stick to the one queer character + love interest quota. It was nice to see all that subtext actually lead to something and it makes sense that Kate would develop romantic feelings for the person who has been the most emotionally supportive and available to her after such a severe trauma. The potential of them being a couple next season opens up so many new character dynamics that I would be excited to explore. It’s an added layer of betrayal for Mallory to not only pick Kate over Jeanette, but then start dating her on top of it. I will be very curious to see Jeanette’s reaction. I doubt it will be the World’s Best Ally routine we saw with Vince. And you know Joy will have a problem with it because of course she will. I just really want Kate to be happy and I hope she isn’t moving too fast. Mallory better treat her well. 

Nice of them to throw in a half assed buzzer beater attempt to redeem Jamie. “Hey bro, I know I left you with a lifelong injury and ruined your sports career, but I totally think you should get back together with your boyfriend!” See kids, the writers may be fully aware that the resident heartthrob is a girlfriend puncher and a drunk driver, but at least he’s not a homophobe, right? That would really be over the top. Basic human decency is so dreamy!

It is endlessly hilarious to me that of the main cast, the two most terrible people are the only straight ones. I need a scene next season of Jeanette and Jamie going up to the lunch table with Vince/Ben and Kate/Mallory and trying to act all buddy buddy as they roll their eyes into the sun. Jeanette and Jaime deserve each other.

I guess I must be really gullible and naïve, because I actually bought the reconciliation between Kate and Jeanette and I thought it was really sincere and heartfelt on both sides. Kate picked the worst possible person to confess murder to. She really can never catch a break, can she? Jeanette is such a slimy weasel. In contrast, Kate has such a good heart. The fact that she immediately apologized and made up with Jeanette as soon as she learned the truth speaks volumes about her character, especially after everything she’s gone through with Jeanette, and I admire the show’s commitment to perpetually illustrating how kind and loving she is. It’s especially jarring in contrast to Jeanette’s self absorption and manipulation. Obviously Jeanette is going to use Kate’s confession to her own advantage.

Why is Martin’s house basically the town Airbnb, even post crime scene? Do his neighbors never notice or care the half the town apparently has a key to that house and has been going in and out for the past year? Lol. 

Although it was slow at certain points, the last two episodes in particular were stellar and I can’t wait for season two!

Edited June 16, 2021 by SnarkEnthusiast

[Cheyanne11]

Yeah, I don't believe Kate phoned in a tip at all.  Had she, she would have been viewed a hero and most likely embraced by Kate and retained popularity.  However, she didn't JUST want popularity--she wanted Kate's popularity, therefore Kate had to stay missing.

Also, and maybe I'm overthinking this, but I thought it possible Martin was lying to Kate about the police being there and the whole "I'm going to kill myself" was just more manipulation on his part so that she'd 'feel sorry' for him.

[absnow54]

9 minutes ago, SnarkEnthusiast said:

Why is Martin’s house basically the town Airbnb, even post crime scene? Do his neighbors never notice or care the half the town apparently has a key to that house and has been going in and out for the past year? Lol. 

Can someone at least hire Sunshine Cleaners to rip out the bloodstained carpet in the basement?

[Ambrosefolly]

3 hours ago, SnarkEnthusiast said:

It is endlessly hilarious to me that of the main cast, the two most terrible people are the only straight ones. I need a scene next season of Jeanette and Jamie going up to the lunch table with Vince/Ben and Kate/Mallory and trying to act all buddy buddy as they roll their eyes into the sun. Jeanette and Jaime deserve each other.

Shows always do this. Except one gay character on Degrassi (Tristan, and it seems it was unintentional & his predatory teacher) and Bree's son on Desperate Housewives (but he was extremely clever), if there is a villain, he or she is usually straight with little to no redeeming qualities, not even humor, that I can think off.  Even the ball busting Satanna not only got something of a redemption, but always had the best lines.  

I am not saying that if a straight character catches on, they don't try to redeem or give them some depth. What I am saying that gay characters, even the villains, are treated with actual complexity. Even that ass Dave Krosky on Glee was treated as a human being because he was in the closet. 

Also to add, I hope that Vince doesn't turn on Jeanette, since Vince is the one person Jeanette never really betrayed. 

Edited to add: remembered  two films in the last 20 years where gay characters were featured as flat villains, Disney tv movie, Campus Confidential, where they turned against a group member because he was faking being gay to be in a "cool" group and F the Prom, where the they verbally bullied the gay basketball player because he wasn't stereotypical gay, but they were minor, aside characters

Edited June 16, 2021 by Ambrosefolly

[izabella]

One thing that didn't make sense to me is Jeannette and Jamie hearing the gun shot that killed Martin.  They were outside somewhere and Kate shot him while he was in the basement of his house.  How could they have heard that shot?  Were they standing in front of Martin's house?? 

[waving feather]

47 minutes ago, Cheyanne11 said:

Also, and maybe I'm overthinking this, but I thought it possible Martin was lying to Kate about the police being there and the whole "I'm going to kill myself" was just more manipulation on his part so that she'd 'feel sorry' for him.

I thought of this too. He was always trying to guilt trip her about her ruining his life, when he was actually ruining hers. And he made a big suicide speech but didn't/ couldn't go through with it because it is just another manipulation tactic of his.

That particular scene with "Disarm" and the final scene with "Creep" are covers sung by Olivia Holt. Such well-produced covers, I hope they'd upload the full versions somewhere.

[TattleTeeny]

1 hour ago, CarpeFelis said:

How could Kate possibly have called at that point? She was locked in the basement.

Sorry, wasn’t thinking. But maybe he left it open when he went down there. If his original plan was to kill himself, maybe he’d want to make sure she didn’t starve to death down there. I don’t know. Maybe she shot the door open, haha! 

[mandymax]

Hmm.  I'm not sure how I feel about the finale.

I'm in the group that has never been a Mallory fan, simply because the actress portraying her has never seemed to fit the character, so Mallory and Kate becoming friends always felt forced to me.  As such, I was disappointed that they kissed - again, because they've never seemed to match in the first place, let alone as a romantic couple.  But following those lines, I could see season 2 taking the path of "Mallory thought it was real [because it did seem as though Mallory had romantic feelings for Kate] but, for Kate, it was merely an exuberant friendship kiss, so Mallory becomes unhinged and a stalker."

As for Jeannette knowing in the end that Kate was in the basement and smiling - I'd noticed that she'd also given that creepy smile upon learning from Kate's mom that Kate was missing.  I always took it as "I know something about Kate Wallis that no one else knows," and that's the vibe I got at the very end at the basement door.  Jeannette wanted to feel special.  What's more special than knowing secrets concerning the special Golden Girl?

Mind you, I do think Jeannette is a budding psycho.

I would definitely like to see season 2 continue on the season 1 timeline - I really want to know how Jeannette managed to become the cold girl in Kate's absence.  I also REALLY want to know about that other girl in Widow Falls whom Martin supposedly stalked.

All in all, though, the story and the directing of this show is fantastic, and I'm excited to see where it goes next!

 

[TattleTeeny]

At first sight, Mallory didn’t know it was Kate in the window; she just was excited that Jeanette was breaking in when someone (a friend, a girlfriend) was in the house. 

[LittleIggy]

Why does Freeform carry the 700 Club?

[Cheyanne11]

2 minutes ago, TattleTeeny said:

At first sight, Mallory didn’t know it was Kate in the window; she just was excited that Jeanette was breaking in when someone (a friend, a girlfriend) was in the house. 

Yes, she was loving it because she thought Jeanette was going to get caught.

OK, the more I think about it, the more I think Martin was lying about the police being there, as why wouldn't Kate have heard them?  She heard Jeanette come in and that was only from the sound of the front door opening and footsteps.  Surely she would've heard them questioning Martin.

[Chicken Wing]

3 minutes ago, LittleIggy said:

Why does Freeform carry the 700 Club?

Part of the contract when Pat Robertson sold the original Family Channel. Apparently it's ironclad, they can't get rid of it.

[LittleIggy]

1 minute ago, Chicken Wing said:

Part of the contract when Pat Robertson sold the original Family Channel. Apparently it's ironclad, they can't get rid of it.

A real life horror movie plot! 😬

[CarpeFelis]

13 minutes ago, TattleTeeny said:

Sorry, wasn’t thinking. But maybe he left it open when he went down there. If his original plan was to kill himself, maybe he’d want to make sure she didn’t starve to death down there. I don’t know. Maybe she shot the door open, haha! 

True. But what I was thinking about was, Martin came downstairs with the gun saying the police had come to his door and would probably come back with a warrant, so they knew something before Kate shot him. After Kate shot him, sure, she could go upstairs and call the police.

[RachelKM]

1 hour ago, Cheyanne11 said:

OK, the more I think about it, the more I think Martin was lying about the police being there, as why wouldn't Kate have heard them?  She heard Jeanette come in and that was only from the sound of the front door opening and footsteps.  Surely she would've heard them questioning Martin.

I'm not sure whether he was telling the truth. But I don't think Kate so much heard the front door as she heard someone walking above her.  Jeanette came in and took a few steps toward the hall before Kate said anything.  Because Jeanette was entering cautiously, her footsteps were slow and methodical rather than simply walking in.  Kate would have heard steps above her that were not the stride of Martin.  Conversely, a conversation at the door might not have been heard at all or, if it was , might have just been voices without being able to hear the words.

Edited June 16, 2021 by RachelKM

[Black Knight]

Wow! I found that generally a satisfying wrap-up to the series, though I wish this had been a two-hour episode so that they could have had some real scenes with supporting characters to flesh things out, e.g. Kate and her parents, Kate and Ashley, Ashley and Derek, Jeanette and Cindy...but the main storyline was resolved.

The Martin Harris actor had given away in an Entertainment Weekly interview weeks ago that there was a major twist in the final scene of the show, but going into this episode I thought it would be about Mallory, the theory that smart posters here came up with about it being her bike that night. But then the Mallory stuff came out earlier in the episode, and I wasn't sure what the twist would be (since Jeanette did such a good job of acting like a real human in her interaction with Kate earlier). But as soon as they showed Jeanette cos-playing Kate in that interview, I knew. I have to admit it was evil genius on Jeanette's part to recognize that Kate clearing her was enough and that if she let the lawsuit and money go at that point, she'd come out better than ever.

So Kate didn't deliberately lie, but I still think that at least a part of her knew there was a question about whether Jeanette saw her that night and that's why she didn't go to the cops with the accusation immediately. But whatever, hard to feel sorry for Jeanette for being accused for the wrong time she was in the house. Jeanette is quite sociopathic and I like the show paid off all those hints of it. I hope at some point Vince realizes and breaks away. Maybe Ben will point out Jeanette's creepiness to him.

And I'm glad Kate got to find happiness with Mallory. It was quite a romantic sequence they had at the rollerskate rink a couple of episodes back and I'm glad the show paid that off too. They had good chemistry together, and I didn't have an issue with HQS's acting. Her "I-" and not finishing it was well done.

[starri]

I hope Freeform does a For Your Consideration campaign for Olivia Holt and Blake Lee. I mean, I don’t expect nominations, but they deserve the effort. 

[TattleTeeny]

1 hour ago, RachelKM said:

I'm not sure whether he was telling the truth. But I don't think Kate so much heard the front door as she heard someone walking above her.  Jeanette came in and took a few steps toward the hall before Kate said anything.  Because Jeanette was entering cautiously, her footsteps were slow and methodical rather than simply walking in.  Kate would have heard steps above her that were not the stride of Martin.  Conversely, a conversation at the door might not have been heard at all or, if it was , might have just been voices without being able to hear the words.

Yeah, and Martin mentioned that the police didn’t have a warrant at that point, so maybe he wouldn’t have let them through the door anyway.

[RachelKM]

1 minute ago, starri said:

I hope Freeform does a For Your Consideration campaign for Olivia Holt and Blake Lee. I mean, I don’t expect nominations, but they deserve the effort. 

I do as well.  Their performances were powerful and well done.  I would like to add Chiara Aurelia. Jeanette, though creepy AF and deeply disturbed, was fascinating and compelling.  And even more so than the rest of the cast, her three timelines were vastly different people and each of them played with nuance that managed to be ambiguous while remaining believable and consistent. 

[CrazyDog]

I guess I have the UO regarding the finale - I was disappointed. I think the show worked best as a feature of two flawed girls, both victims in different ways - pressure, failed by their parents, attacked by society and the media.

While the show definitely showed Jeannette being "off" it was in a way that could have been attributed to going through her own traumas, and being a frankly, obnoxious and self-centered teenager. 

To end the series with Jeannette being a true villain alongside Martin, it lost me. It wasn't needed, and I think it took away from Martin being the true evil of the season. I don't think we need a S2 unless they do something completely different.

From interviews with the showrunners, it seems like they decided to add that ending scene late in filming, after they decided they wanted another big twist, and so they tacked it on.

I liked the scenes with Kate and Jeannette basically sorting out the truth, and finding a common ground. Same with Mallory - as much as I disliked her, she lied to protect Kate too, even though she contributed to the pile on to Jeannette.

Poor Kate having to take a life, but she had a decent ending in a sense. Finding some peace, dealing with all of her suppressed memories, her friendship (or more) with Mallory.

Yay for Vince and Ben though (and how did Jamie know about them)?

But other plot lines just fell completely flat or were left out.
Would have been nice to see Derek
The impact on the Wallis family of Ashley's lies
Jamie and the gun outside of Jeannette's house
Jeannette getting back with the guy who punched her
Martin's past
The Martin shootout story made zero sense. Are we supposed to assume the family and police kept Kate killing Martin from being leaked to the media?

A very well-acted show by all the leads, but I just didn't love the finale.

1 hour ago, Cheyanne11 said:

Yes, she was loving it because she thought Jeanette was going to get caught.

OK, the more I think about it, the more I think Martin was lying about the police being there, as why wouldn't Kate have heard them?  She heard Jeanette come in and that was only from the sound of the front door opening and footsteps.  Surely she would've heard them questioning Martin.

I think Martin said they came to the door, but would be returning with a warrant, so they weren't actually inside the house. IF he was telling the truth, we don't know why they finally started to suspect him.  I think that's also where the speculation about someone tipping off the police comes from. I think Kate only heard Jeannette because she was close to the door.

 

Edited June 16, 2021 by CrazyDog

[jackjill89]

3 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Yeah I tried to defend Mallory a few times and I got outright flamed.  Someone actually called me a horrible person for thinking Mallory wasn’t the villain of the story equal to Martin and I should be arrested myself,   I kinda stopped after that.   People are weird.  My point has always been their was no actual evidence of Mallory doing anything wrong except maybe being a bit of a bully to Jeanette in 93.  Jeanette on the other hand was perfectly willing to drop Mallory at the first opportunity and looking back she was already stalking both Kate and Martin at this point at least passively.    And yeah now we know Jeanette did know Kate was in the basement later.  People are making excuses for her.  Jamie gets to have his moment.     Heck even Martin has his defenders.    But Mallory it’s all hate all the time.

IMO it's because the actress portraying Mallory was annoying. If they had employed a better actress, maybe she would have garnered more understanding.

I can tell you that's how I feel. I did love the twist of Kate and Mallory becoming friends, but Mallory annoyed the crap out of me every time she was on the screen. 

If I had liked the actress, I would have been all in on Kate forgiving her and going away with her. As it stands, I wish she had yelled at her and let her take the Greyhound out of town alone. 

 

[erikaelvis]

One thing that's bothering me a little is dropping the case all together.  Jeanette's dad would have been out a large sum of money for lawyer fees and I'm sure the lawyer would have gotten a percentage of the settlement.  Jeanette's dad also lost his job because of this and it seems he was out a substantial income.  I really thought when she went on the talk show she was going to say she was suing the talk show host for airing what Kate said.

[Black Knight]

It's hard to understand how a tip could come once Kate was locked away out of sight. Jeanette sure didn't send one in and Mallory didn't know there was something to tell the police. The one thing I could see making the police suspicious is if it finally got to them, via Joy perhaps, about Martin advising Joy to wait to report Kate's absence. It's an extremely odd position for an assistant principal to take. Even back in the '90s it was well-known that the early hours matter most.

But I could also see Martin just finally accepting that the situation had to end. He wanted Kate compliant and lovey-dovey again, and it had to dawn on him at some point that she just was not going to come around no matter how long he kept her in the basement.

[Chaos Theory]

I actually do think most of the characters got some kind of redemption.   You have to remember these are teenagers.  Even Jamie punching Jeanette isn’t casting him as “an abuser for life”.   People especially young people make mistakes and that was a highly stressful situation for anyone to be put in and add alcohol and you get an explosion.  I am not excusing Jamie.  I am saying that there is nothing that any of the teenagers did (except Jeanette leaving Kate in the basement ) did that is actually unforgivable.

And there have been plenty of actors on other shows I didn’t think were the greatest in the past.  I actually hate when the characters they play get judged on their performance especially when Its not actually that bad.  I actually though HQ did a fair job.  Maybe she wasn’t the best actor on the show but the hate she got was out of hand and by no means deserved.  But I am kinda done with the show.  It was a fun distraction and I will be back for next season.  Personally I wouldn’t have been if Mallory turned out to be the baddie.  

Edited June 16, 2021 by Chaos Theory

[Cinnabon]

18 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

I actually do think most of the characters got some kind of redemption.   You have to remember these are teenagers.  Even Jamie punching Jeanette isn’t casting him as “an abuser for life”.   People especially young people make mistakes and that was a highly stressful situation for anyone to be put in and add alcohol and you get an explosion.  I am not excusing Jamie.  I am saying that there is nothing that any of the teenagers did (except Jeanette leaving Kate in the basement ) did that is actually unforgivable.

And there have been plenty of actors on other shows I didn’t think were the greatest in the past.  I actually hate when the characters they play get judged on their performance especially when Its not actually that bad.  I actually though HQ did a fair job.  Maybe she wasn’t the best actor on the show but the hate she got was out of hand and by no means deserved.  But I am kinda done with the show.  It was a fun distraction and I will be back for next season.  Personally I wouldn’t have been if Mallory turned out to be the baddie.  

Agree, most are very flawed teen characters. Jamie hitting Jeannette was a huge deal and shouldn’t have been tolerated, but it doesn’t necessarily mean he will be a lifelong abuser. He actually seems to have undergone some degree of self reflection and realized some of his mistakes. 

[Marcya23]

Overall I’m pleased. It was a guilty pleasure so some of the things that would normally bother me, didn’t. EXCEPT for the Dallas skyline at the end. I wish they would have edited out the things that wouldn’t have been there in the mid nineties. I don’t know why it bugged me so much, but it did. 

[JenE4]

The “tip” thing was conceived within this thread—not a part of the show. If someone “called it in” as a tip that Kate was being held captive, then they would have gotten a warrant not just “take his word for it” that he hasn’t seen Kate all year! 

It’s entirely feasible that as the year anniversary of the biggest crime to ever hit this small town that the police would decide to follow up on any and leads they had in their files. They also called Martin on night 1, so they already had him on “their list” of people who might have heard from Kate as soon as she “ran away.” So it entirely checks out without any further reason needed for me.

Kate shot him and they didn’t even hear—or hear of from Kate/Jamie/Vince—the gunshot to follow up whatsoever. Kate said she called the police the next morning after shooting Martin.