S10.E11: Andi Then We Came To The End/S10.E12: After The Final Rose

[jordanpond]

There's something about Nick and Andi's breakup in his room that I don't think anyone has mentioned. To make sure I hadn't remembered Andi's words incorrectly, I did something I never thought I'd do: I re-watched this and wrote down her first few sentences of explanation. Although I never really had a very favorable opinion of Nick, I find him quite reasonable in his confusion: I quote her:

 

"You said that the last time you got engaged, you woke up that morning and you didn't feel like something was right. And I woke up this morning, and didn't feel that something was right and I can't go through with something that I don't think is right."

 

My impression when she said those words was that she had been planning to choose -- and get engaged to -- Nick, but woke up that morning, and realized that she couldn't go through with that engagement. Now the thing she "couldn't go through with" seems to be bringing him to the final rose ceremony. But the fact that she compared her present feelings to the day that Nick got engaged clearly implied -- at least to me, and evidently to him -- that the thing she "couldn't go through with" was an intended engagement to Nick. If I, a completely dispassionate observer, interpreted her words that way, I can't fault Nick at all for being confused.

 

That's why I can't fault Nick at all for asking her during that conversation, if it was (I believe his words were) "us or someone else." Yes, of course, there was a someone else in the final two. But Andi's statements seemed to negate the possibility that the decision was between Nick and Josh. It seemed to imply that Josh was out of the picture: the only question was what to do now that she "couldn't go through with" an engagement to Nick. Now that wasn't how she actually felt, but that's definitley the way it sounded to me.

Edited August 2, 2014 by jordanpond

[PoorerThanDead]

As a longtime fan of Austen, I heartily agree. And I'm inspired to also base my core values on her writing! Thanks for the inspiration.....

 

Yay! (And may I add that I love your avatar/icon thingy.)

[RabbitEars]

As one of the rare watchers who remained unspoiled... I was surprised she was into Josh for almost all the episodes! TV magic worked! (I should have clued in earlier but my husband and I were too busy laughing at the show and playing Bachelorette Bingo. Journey! Process! Amazing! Everything is Awesome!)

 

Sheesh, could that last date with Nick have been any worse. "We're driving a dirt road, whee."

 

 

As for the dumping, many moons ago, I got dumped by a particular dude. To me was out of the blue, and it resembled that scenario. Knock on the door, I answer, and his demeanor immediately showed he came over to break it off. That experience sucked. Your mind reels and you don't know what to say other than "Um. Oh. Okay. Please leave [sO I CAN SAFELY SOB MY EYES OUT]." So a part of me? Feels for, like, you know, Nick.

 

Best part: Grumpy Cat. Clone that cat, and I'll take Claritin forever to snuggle up with one every day.

 

I hope Andi likes baseball. Baseball baseball baseball.

[pitchy]

Good points!   And it makes me flash back to the "Eric incident".  Eric pretty much said she had a poker face, and thant, because of this being a show, he was having difficluty knowing when she was being real and when she was acting.   Andi got outraged, and eventually went to the group of guys who were left and demanded that anyone who thinks she has a POKER FACE (spitting out the words like it was a horrible accusation) needed to step up and say so right now, and they can leave, because she's taking this seriously and it's REAL.  

 

Andi has shown that angry, self-righteous side of her too many times.  She does indeed have a poker face, holding in her irritation and anger until she is PISSED, and then she turns cold and ugly.  She's a person who can't have an  argument with a guy, because she will yell, misinterpret what he says,  shut him down, and walk off in a huff.   She's done it with Juan Pablo, Eric, with the group,  and with Nick. 

your turn is next, Josh - look out!

 

That reminds me of one of her earlier expressions of pique -- I thought that her choice of wording should have given the guys an added clue as to what to expect from her in any argument:

 

  -- "“If any one of y’all thinks that this is a joke to me… you can just say it now and you can walk your ass on out. Every single day, this is real to me.”

 

  Not an ultra classy way to caution the guys.  She was angry at Eric and then decided to redirect that anger at the rest of the guys after Eric left.

Edited August 3, 2014 by pitchy

[pitchy]

Indeed. If he was acting the other night, then some movie producers need to snatch him up, because that was some Oscar level stuff right there, with the shaking and all.

Also, during the time she started to tell him, in his hotel room, that it was a no-go, the transformations in his facial expressions were hard to watch.  You could see him suddenly realize, for sure, what was happening, but he didn't want to show his emotions over this, and that struggle not to show how he felt, while unable to hide it, would be A+++ acting in any film.  That was very raw.   

Edited August 3, 2014 by pitchy

[pitchy]

Re  "fiancee stuff"

That might be up for debate as somebody on the board wondered if it might refer to anal sex. (lol)  I don't want to speak for others, but I think it's generally agreed upon that it's a euphemism for sex.  Maybe someone could start a poll with some smartass answers just for the fun of it.  I readily admit to giggling like a twelve year old whenever I type or read it.  Seriously, I do.  It's the funniest damn thing to come out of this show in a long time.

 

Maybe it's my age.  I took it to mean that the heart was involved and that they were also cuddling and being intimate in the sense of emotional closeness.  That's what fiancee stuff normally means -- it tends to indicate a commitment to the other person, someone you are intending to marry and the other person feels the same way -- otherwise there'd be no reason for the 'fiancee' status.

 In his discussions of this, he's said that he'd made it clear to her that for him, this type of togetherness had added meaning for him (because of his fear of relationships and commitment after being burned) and that it wasn't just sex for him.  He added that he went into the FS with 'no expectations' that they'd have sex and that it wasn't necessary -- something like that.   They had a sort of role-reversal when it comes to the sex thing.

Edited August 3, 2014 by pitchy

[ciaobellame]

She's just a Mean Girl personified. The fact that she's besties with Kelly and Nikki says it all. Their tweets sound like they're all still in high school. For example:

"So lucky to have some of the baddest betches in the world in my corner! Love you @Nikki_Ferrell and @kellytravisty #youcantsitwithus"

 

 

I feel like she's throwing shade at Sharleen.

[nutty1]

There's something about Nick and Andi's breakup in his room that I don't think anyone has mentioned. To make sure I hadn't remembered Andi's words incorrectly, I did something I never thought I'd do: I re-watched this and wrote down her first few sentences of explanation. Although I never really had a very favorable opinion of Nick, I find him quite reasonable in his confusion: I quote her:

 

"You said that the last time you got engaged, you woke up that morning and you didn't feel like something was right. And I woke up this morning, and didn't feel that something was right and I can't go through with something that I don't think is right."

 

My impression when she said those words was that she had been planning to choose -- and get engaged to -- Nick, but woke up that morning, and realized that she couldn't go through with that engagement. Now the thing she "couldn't go through with" seems to be bringing him to the final rose ceremony. But the fact that she compared her present feelings to the day that Nick got engaged clearly implied -- at least to me, and evidently to him -- that the thing she "couldn't go through with" was an intended engagement to Nick. If I, a completely dispassionate observer, interpreted her words that way, I can't fault Nick at all for being confused.

 

That's why I can't fault Nick at all for asking her during that conversation, if it was (I believe his words were) "us or someone else." Yes, of course, there was a someone else in the final two. But Andi's statements seemed to negate the possibility that the decision was between Nick and Josh. It seemed to imply that Josh was out of the picture: the only question was what to do now that she "couldn't go through with" an engagement to Nick. Now that wasn't how she actually felt, but that's definitley the way it sounded to me.

 

That was all bull!! She couldn't very well say, after she just slept with him, that it was Josh all along. I'd bet all I have that she did not just decide that morning, no matter what she says now.

But she should have just said, "I love you, but I love Josh more. I am love with Josh" It may have been hard, but he would have had more closure then, and maybe not have it dragged out thru the months.

I agree with those who say he was not acting during the ATFR. For a guy who spent 9 weeks in front of cameras, he could barely speak, he sounded like he has cotton balls  in his mouth and he was visibly shaking. You couldn't help but feel sorry for him.

 

Cracks me up that she told Josh at the final RC that she loved him form the beginning. Then after Nick let America know she slept with him, she tried to backpedal and say at that point she didn't know. Poor Josh….either way it sucks. Either she knew it was Josh and still slept with Nick. Or she didn't know who it was less than a week before getting engaged.

Run Josh run, while you still have time!

Edited August 3, 2014 by nutty1

[jordanpond]

All of this explosion this season reminded me of why I always lose interest in this show during the last 4 episodes (hometowns, fantasy suites, M/WTA, and the finale.) I find all the anticipation of the first night exciting, and the next several weeks of group dates, one-on-ones, and world travel to be great fun.

 

But starting with the hometowns, it becomes quite evident how much the show requires the lead to be a liar, even if he/she went into the show with the best intentions. Probably on most seasons, during the hometowns, the lead is flat-out-lying to at least two of the families who have welcomed the lead into their home. I dislike the concept of taking up to three people to the fantasy suites, and I don't know what I find more objectionable :the way Chris Harrison uses salacious wording and generally goes out of his way to imply that something sexual goes on, or his complete about face -- when it suits him -- to chide contestants who don't seem to treat this time as private. And even if you think that Nick was faking all or some of his devastation (I happen to believe him) you know that the F2s of at least some seasons are completely blindsided and heartbroken. 

 

By the way, whether you are like me and dislike the practice of a man asking a father for his daughter's hand, or disagree with me and find this a nice and traditional gesture, I offer that there is likely agreement on both sides of the topic that this show makes a complete mockery of the practice For two men to ask for the bachelorette's hand is silly. And on Bachelor seasons it is downright ridiculous to see the lead ask four (!) fathers for their respective daughter's hand. 

 

Although I think Andi went really too far in her deception, I think it is only fair to acknowledge that there were probably other leads who engaged in similarly excessive "leading-on" of their F2 (and perhaps even F3), but who, unlike Andi, never had the extent of the deception revealed in such a public way.

 

But even those who don't take it nearly as far are really put in a "no win" position according to the rules of the show: either you look undecided up to the end and make your bond with the F1 seem very weak, or affirm that you knew quite a long time who your F1 would be, and thus look like a manipulative liar.

 

Sure, nobody has to agree to be the lead in the show, and I think they do need to be accountable for their choices. But the fact that the show, by its very format, forces the lead into a no-win situation in which they look bad either way is something that Chris Harrison never seems to acknowledge. In some seasons he treats the spurned contestants as stalkers if that suits him, in others (as with Juan Pablo) it suited him to point out what a cad JP was, presumably to make the other bachelors and the whole "process" of the franchise look good by comparison.

 

I guess in some seasons in which the leads and contestants are more quiet/circumspect in their discussions, it's easier to focus on the fun parts of the show. But this season made it impossible to ignore how much the format guarantees that someone will look bad, and how much the show's producers seem to wash their hands of their very big part in all of it.

Edited August 3, 2014 by jordanpond

[Bella]

Very thoughtful post, @jordanpond . I agree that the lead is in a no-win situation. I have some questions about this that don't really fit the episode thread, so I'm going to take them to General Gabbery. 

[Zahdii]

...on Bachelor seasons it is downright ridiculous to see the lead ask four (!) fathers for their respective daughter's hand. 

 

Oh, now you've gone and got me dreaming about a polygamous Bachelor season.  Will the future wives hate each other?  Will they have to share a kitchen?  Let's see them fight for the coveted position of 'first wife'!

[LunaNegra]

One of the things I thought was very telling was her difference in demeanor between letting Chris go and Nick.  With Chris, she was in tears and crying; with Nick she barely, if any, shed tears and was very distant. 

 

 

Also - with Nick's fantasy night comments and upset because "those were fiancee type things"...   his indignation and disbelief was more like he was a virgin and a'saving himself' for marriage but Andi used her womanly wiles on him and now he is 'spoiled."

 

I don't think this is the case but the way he reacted in the AFTR was kind of silly.  I think more than truly heartbroken, he still can't process/intellectualize what happened because of his ego.  He was so uber-confident [ read cocky] during the whole show, even in the very early episodes, that he still can't believe he didn't 'win'.

Edited August 3, 2014 by LunaNegra

[pitchy]

Keep reading and you'll see I addressed this in a later post. :-)

 

Yes, I saw that later when reading more recent notes and I wondered, "Did I write that too?"   :-)  It's nice not to be ALONE in my reactions.

[Jillybean]

Andi and Josh were on GMA last Tuesday and Live with Kelly & Michael on Wednesday.  Both shows asked them about the possibility of a televised wedding and Andi appeared thrilled at the idea.  In the resignation letter she submitted that was circulated online, she stated that she expected her obligations to the show to end by December (!) and she hoped to be considered for re-hire at that time (yeah, right).  I think it's pretty clear she has stars in her eyes, especially now that she's started talking about a desire to leave Atlanta (something I don't recall hearing on the show, beyond feigned consideration of a life in Iowa or Chicago).  I think once Andi & Josh's 15 minutes are up she won't have much use for him, and I expect he will not get along so well with Angry Andi (the Andi who emerged after a night in the FS with Juan Pablo, after her last conversation with Eric Hill, and on ATFR after Nick told the world that they "made love").  I don't see easygoing Josh being able or willing to cope with Angry Andi.  I don't foresee a lifetime of happiness for those two -- rather, I think Josh was merely the pick Andi decided would give her the best odds for celebrity past the end of her season.  

 

I don't believe anyone goes on this show in search of love anymore.  Even Sharleen has finally been transparent about why she participated in The Bachelor, with the creation of her blog, show recaps, and a not-so-subtle mention therein that she has considered leaving the world of opera.  I enjoy Sharleen's recaps and think she has been very clever in how she has navigated her Bachelor and post-Bachelor experience.  

 

As for Nick, for someone as skeptical as he professed to be from the outset and who allegedly studied all the past seasons to be snookered so completely into letting his guard down and "falling in love," well, that's pretty incredible.  And now, even he is making the rounds of the morning show/talk show circuit.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Jillybean

[Alapaki]

"You said that the last time you got engaged, you woke up that morning and you didn't feel like something was right. And I woke up this morning, and didn't feel that something was right and I can't go through with something that I don't think is right."

 

 

I agree that this could/would give Nick the impression that, as recently as the previous night, Andi was at least heavily leaning towards picking him, even though we know that was not true and that she probably had decided on Josh very early on.

 

I think her reference to Nick's comments about his prior engagement was just another example of Andi being an asshole and trying to use Nick's own words against him and to insulate herself. (i.e., see, I'm only doing/feeling what you did/felt in the past).  

 

-- "“If any one of y’all thinks that this is a joke to me… you can just say it now and you can walk your ass on out. Every single day, this is real to me.”

  Not an ultra classy way to caution the guys.  She was angry at Eric and then decided to redirect that anger at the rest of the guys after Eric left.

 

 

Yeah.  I think she was pissed that Eric saw through her and called her on it.  In retrospect, I think it's clear that she was set on Josh from pretty close to Day 1 (or, with my tin-foil hat on, even before Day 1).  In that context, I agree it probably was a challenge to have to do through the motions with all of the other guys and pretend that she wasn't just biding her time until the FRC when she got to "decide on" Josh.  

 

But starting with the hometowns, it becomes quite evident how much the show requires the lead to be a liar, even if he/she went into the show with the best intentions. Probably on most seasons, during the hometowns, the lead is flat-out-lying to at least two of the families who have welcomed the lead into their home.

* * * 

By the way, whether you are like me and dislike the practice of a man asking a father for his daughter's hand, or disagree with me and find this a nice and traditional gesture, I offer that there is likely agreement on both sides of the topic that this show makes a complete mockery of the practice For two men to ask for the bachelorette's hand is silly. And on Bachelor seasons it is downright ridiculous to see the lead ask four (!) fathers for their respective daughter's hand.

 

 

 

I agree.  But this is the exact reason I think Andi's father, rather than being some kind of "hero" who "tells it like it is", is actually an uber-asshole.  When it gets down the end, there's a lot of kabuki that goes on for purposes of the cameras, and in order to perpetuate the narrative and leave some shred of suspense or drama for the final episodes.  

 

Last season Hy treated Juan Pablo like he was some sort of scumbag for doing precisely what his precious daughter did this season.  I said it last season, and I'll say it again, if your daughter ends up a contestant on the Bachelor (let alone shilling themselves out for a second season as the Bachelorette), ya' fucked up as a Father.  

I think once Andi & Josh's 15 minutes are up she won't have much use for him, and I expect he will not get along so well with Angry Andi

 

 

I can't find the link for it right now, but last week there was a small blurb on Philly.com (the website for the Philadelphia newspapers) quoting an upcomgin Life & Style article that itself quoted people saying that Andi and Josh are both over each other already.  

 

Apparently Josh doesn't like how much Andi wants to go out and party with her girlfriends, and Andi finds Josh over-controlling, or some such.

 

Obviously this is third-hand stuff.  And I'm not sure whose "camp" leaks to Life & Style.  But the remark about Andi partying with her girlfriends sounds consistent with her Twitter feed quoted upthread.  And, btw, what adult uses the phrase "#youcantsitwithus"?  Is that some anniversary homage to Heathers?

[Bucwild]

.  And, btw, what adult uses the phrase "#youcantsitwithus"?  Is that some anniversary homage to Heathers?

It's a quote from Mean Girls.

[Kat20]

Regarding the Andi's sister looking bored and kind of thinking, "here we go again", Andi mentioned on the premiere that she and Rachel are very different. Also, on her facebook page, she posted that promotional photo of Andi, saying to the tune, "I guess I have to post this."

 

Sharleen has some really funny things about the MTP date on her blog.

[pitchy]

That's funny.  Sometimes I'll read a post by someone and it could have been a post I would have written, word for word.  I usually just sit there and mentally thank my fellow poster for having done the work for me.  This thread has been a really interesting read.  Usually in these situations I feel strongly one way or the other, and it's true I feel a fairly strong dislike for Andi.  But regarding Nick and the way this all played out, I think there have been a lot of really good points made on both sides so it's been fun to read.  Like with a lot of shows, I enjoy the discussion and snark on the boards afterward more than the actual show.  

 

I think it was on TWoP (RIP) that someone said the reason they enjoyed reality tv so much was because it afforded them the opportunity to feel superior for a few hours out of the week.  lol    

 

What I like about this board more than TWOP is that it's a better balance of snark and people actually trying to see the 'other' side of a situation.   It helps me look at aspects I miss.  

[Lamb18]

How many other rejected F3's do we hear from that have had the same situation.

 

Deanna, Michelle (Jason's season), Andi herself??

[Rhondinella]

Moved several posts linking and discussing media mentions of the show and of Josh/Andi's possible current relationship status to the Media thread.  Just tidying up a bit.

[nutty1]

Not sure if this is correct spot. From Sean's blogs, but Nick's words. I love it. Of course, I am #TeamNick.

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/seanlowe/2014/08/nick-why-i-brought-up-the-fantasy-suite/

[Beebee111]

 

Not sure if this is correct spot. From Sean's blogs, but Nick's words. I love it. Of course, I am #TeamNick.

 

http://www.patheos.c...-fantasy-suite/

 

Thanks for sharing. This is very well written on Nick's part and I agree with him wholeheartedly. The show that puts "finding love" under a spotlight should stop being so cagey about sex. It's about time someone had the balls (and this time someone literally did) to speak openly about the whole business of 'staying as a couple' in the 'fantasy suite.'

Edited August 7, 2014 by Beebee111

[backformore]

I liked Nick's essay.   When he asked "why did you make love to me?"  he really meant that he wanted to know what was in her heart.  When she acted like they were a couple in love, was she acting, or was it real, but not enough?   

 

I liked his attitude that sex is a means to solidify a relationship, but that it isn't fair when one person is emotionally invested and the other is not.   It's a lot of the same stuff we've been saying in this forum, so i guess we got it right as to why he asked the question.  

[Palomar]

That’s why I feel Andi’s decision to have sex with me was not appropriate. Either she was unsure about our relationship or – worse – she was certain she was choosing Josh. In both of those circumstances, I felt as if she didn’t respect my feelings and that she should not had sex with me.

Read more: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/seanlowe/2014/08/nick-why-i-brought-up-the-fantasy-suite/#ixzz39kMIiCD5

 

 

 

I'm sorry, I know I am in the minority here who thinks what Nick said came from anger/revenge more than hurt but come ON.  You have to admit that he has got to be the only guy in the history of guys (besides those who are celibate for religious reasons) who says that a woman shouldn't have had sex with him and claim that she didn't respect him. Jeez sound familiar ladies? 

 

For the Nick faithful, yeah I get it....no need explaining it. I just think he is doing a little CYA for those who don't view what he did as such an honorable thing.

[truthaboutluv]

I liked his attitude that sex is a means to solidify a relationship, but that it isn't fair when one person is emotionally invested and the other is not.   It's a lot of the same stuff we've been saying in this forum, so i guess we got it right as to why he asked the question.

 

 

This. But reading some of the comments below the blog, it's clear there are some people who will never get it. It will always be, "he was classless and not a gentleman for revealing that..." And it continues to amuse and baffle me that the people who make these statements and act like Nick was just the absolute worse human being for saying what he did are some of the same people who in the same breath defend Andi because "she wasn't engaged yet, the lead leads people on, etc. etc." So here's my question, if she did absolutely nothing wrong, then what's the big deal with him talking about it?

 

As someone else noted, it's not like Nick went into dirty details, revealing sexual positions they did that night, how many times they did it, who did what to each other, etc. All he said was a simple, basic statement - why did she make love to him if she knew she wasn't in love with him. And all of a sudden the pearls were being clutched, gasps coming out, hands to chests, "oh the horror..." But all the while that overreaction happens, some defend her decision and action and so I say again, why is it okay to do it and apparently for some she did nothing wrong, but to mention it is just the absolute worse sin in the world.

 

As Andi herself informed us, in one of her and Josh's media interviews, she's a grown woman who did what she did (it just would have been so perfect if she'd said "grown ass woman". Josh would have probably appreciated that) and by golly she's right and as a grown woman, the person she screwed over with her actions put her on the spot to explain herself. Simple as that. 

 

You have to admit that he has got to be the only guy in the history of guys (besides those who are celibate for religious reasons) who says that a woman shouldn't have had sex with him and claim that she didn't respect him.

 

 

The only guy in history - that's a pretty huge generalization. And I think this speaks to exactly what Nick said in the article. That for some, the attitude seemed to be that because he's a guy he should have been all about the sex right, just be happy to have another notch on his belt because that's what guys do after all. To each his own, but I think that in 2014 we're hopefully past these societal expectations, labels, etc. we place on men and women.

 

"Men don't do this and women don't do that and women feel this and for men this is normal, etc. etc." People are people and they all feel what they feel and deal with things as they deal with it and it has nothing to do with being a man or being a woman. It's the same way some defend Andi by saying men do what she did all the time - maybe so and they're assholes for it just like she was an asshole for what she did and her actions are no different or more acceptable because she is a woman. 

Edited August 7, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[ramble]

Whether one thinks Nick was classless, I definitely think Nick was a bit clueless. This is The Bachelorette. The girl you're dating has been dating more than a baker's dozen men. It's a reality show for entertainment. Someone finding "the one" is just a bonus to the franchise. Had he never seen this show? Did he not understand how it works? Unless the lead & I agreed really early on that it was destined forever & ever love just between us I would be skeptical no matter what was said because it's for a show. Even in the lead told me that I probably wouldn't completely believe it until after the show. But that I'd ever go on this show...

[Beebee111]

 

Quote

    You have to admit that he has got to be the only guy in the history of guys (besides those who are celibate for religious reasons) who says that a woman shouldn't have had sex with him and claim that she didn't respect him.

    

 

The only guy in history - that's a pretty huge generalization. And I think this speaks to exactly what Nick said in the article. That for some, the attitude seemed to be that because he's a guy he should have been all about the sex right, just be happy to have another notch on his belt because that's what guys do after all. To each his own, but I think that in 2014 we're hopefully past these societal expectations, labels, etc. we place on men and women.

 

I have to lend emphasis to your response here. I think there are many (non-religious) men who feel exactly the same way as Nick about sex. I know some of them. However, men don't necessarily go shouting about it because of the social stigma. Unfortunately, in 2014 there are still all these stereotypes and stigma about male and female sexuality. Women are supposed to be the sexual gatekeepers and men are supposed to be the sexual hounds, ready and willing to screw anything in a skirt. I think the reality is that, there is a bell curve with some really asexual people on one end and some really highly sexual polyamorous people on the other. Most people, be they man or woman, I still think fall someone in the middle where sex is closely related with emotional intimacy with another (one) individual. Of course, I haven't conducted a global study on the issue so I could be totally wrong.

 

 

Whether one thinks Nick was classless, I definitely think Nick was a bit clueless. This is The Bachelorette. The girl you're dating has been dating more than a baker's dozen men. It's a reality show for entertainment. Someone finding "the one" is just a bonus to the franchise. Had he never seen this show? Did he not understand how it works? Unless the lead & I agreed really early on that it was destined forever & ever love just between us I would be skeptical no matter what was said because it's for a show. Even in the lead told me that I probably wouldn't completely believe it until after the show. But that I'd ever go on this show...

 

I have to agree on this. I think he got way too caught up in it and forgot the process. A former contestant did say that she could always tell the men on the show who hadn't watched it before and she identified Nick as one. His crash course cramming of Des's season was not enough to drum it into this head that the F2 always gets led on to an extent. So perhaps if sexual intimacy meant that much to him, he should have waited until he was sure he was the one. But from an early stage, he thought he was the one - and I think Andi thrived on that. Plus, we've probably all been infatuated with someone and infatuation comes with believing things that are not necessarily real.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Beebee111

[Bella]

 

His crash course cramming of Des's season was not enough to drum it into this head that the F2 always gets led on to an extent.

 

And Des wasn't typical, with the whole Brooks crush dominating the proceedings up until the end. That probably wasn't the best season to watch if Nick wanted to be clued in. 

[truthaboutluv]

His crash course cramming of Des's season was not enough to drum it into this head that the F2 always gets led on to an extent.

 

 

And the irony is that his watching previous seasons is what got him judged for "not being there for the right reasons". I don't know if I'd necessarily say that Nick was clueless about the show but that even while he tried to be analytical about it, feelings and emotions got in the way and blinded him. Obviously there is a lot we don't see based on the editing but I recall Nick stating in one of the voice-overs at F3 I think, that everytime he second guessed or questioned the process, Andi's feelings for him, she always reassured him. 

 

Despite the smug edit, I think Nick did have his doubts throughout but then something would happen with Andi that would make him think, "I can't be imagining this..." It also reminds me of the whole "he analyzes everything and he talks strategy" stuff the guys attacked him with. My suspicion is that what the guys interpreted as Nick being strategic because he analyzed everything was him trying to be smart about the whole thing even while he was falling for Andi. I think Nick was very aware of how this process could be, the reality you're competing with other guys, the reality that the woman can't tell you exactly how she feels and so, probably trying to avoid heartbreak, he analyzed, maybe even overanalyzed everything else, like her actions with him.

 

As Nick stated in an interview, he did say to Andi at a point that he knew there were things she could not say to him and he only had her actions to go by. Which brings to mind the statements that some have made that he was delusional about her feelings for him and that's what came back to bite him. But was he really delusional or was it that Andi just played him that well? Some use the drama with the guys as proof of this but okay, let's look at the whole Belgium or whatever situation. Brian and company were upset that Nick stated he was certain he was going to HTD - didn't he get the rose? When he went to see Andi in her hotel room, did she not make the choice to go out with him even after just coming off a one on one with another guy and sucking face with him for who knows how long against a tree? And then of course sleeping with him after he laid it all out to her on what it meant to him.

 

Then fast forward to the AFTR and she walks out cold, seemingly lacking any empathy and almost looking annoyed that she even had to deal with the conversation even though pretty much almost every lead has to face their F2 at the AFTR special. And Nick has stated this as well, that that was the thing that completely threw him that night, just how cold and almost angry she was towards him, no sympathy, emotion, etc. 

[Palomar]

 

The only guy in history - that's a pretty huge generalization. And I think this speaks to exactly what Nick said in the article. That for some, the attitude seemed to be that because he's a guy he should have been all about the sex right, just be happy to have another notch on his belt because that's what guys do after all. To each his own, but I think that in 2014 we're hopefully past these societal expectations, labels, etc. we place on men and women.

 

OMG. I can't believe anyone is taking what I said literally.  I meant it as in HA HA a guy is actually saying the same thing a girl "often" says (disclaimer: not all) that she didn't respect me...that she shouldn't have slept with me if she didn't love me.   A guy is actually complaining about sex instead of complaining about NOT getting laid. That is ALL.  Am I the only one who seems some humor or irony in a GUY saying this stuff?  I'm not trying to change anyone's mind here or rehash things. 

Edited August 8, 2014 by Palomar

[MsPH]

Well I for one find it awesome, not ironic, that a guy admits he was hurt by sex. It happens all the time, we just don't hear about it unless we're the ones doing the hurting. For me personally, the happiest memories become the most painful when it all ends in heartbreak, and I think that applies to most people, women or men. That night was probably the happiest Nick's ever been, so I can imagine the pain now that it keeps playing in his head. Momentary pleasure is hardly worth that. His hurt about it just proves how real his feelings were. I appreciate that bit of reality in this so called reality show. If Andi's perfect fairytale suffered a little dent because of it then she's the one responsible for that. I guess it wasn't as perfect and straightforward as she wanted it to appear after the fact. 

 

If she did nothing wrong then there's no reason to be embarrassed about it coming out. Might have been a bit awkward for the families to hear, but then again by then, they'd been watching her suck face with a dozen guys for two months. If that's not awkward then I don't know how a mere mention of sex would be. Silly show.

[nutty1]

I think under the circumstances, he thought (apparently incorrectly) that at this point in the game, she only would have had sex with him if he was the one. He said he told her so many times that her actions spoke what she could not say.

Right or wrong with how he did it at the ATFR, I do believe having sex with her was more than just a wham bam to him.

[Scout Finch]

 

I think there are many (non-religious) men who feel exactly the same way as Nick about sex. I know some of them.

 

Can you introduce me?! 

[Beebee111]

 

Quote

    

    I think there are many (non-religious) men who feel exactly the same way as Nick about sex. I know some of them.

 

Can you introduce me?!

 

LOL. Unfortunately, they are all coupled up now. Maybe I'm proving Palomar's point here . . .

[aenea]

Can you introduce me?! 

I've met quite a few as well over the years- there are always going to be people of both sexes who look on sex primarily as belt-notching, but I've known quite a few guys who took it very seriously, and emotionally, indeed.  

 

I see it even more in my kids' peer group (19-20)...aside from the belt notchers, there seems to be a consensus that men are at least as 'sensitive' as women when it comes to sex, if not more so.  Granted, my kids have a pretty 'good' friend group, but I don't think that it's that uncommon. 

 

I didn't find Nick's reaction at all out of line- it's one thing to have mutually agreed upon casual sex, and quite another to have sex with someone who's made it clear that they're in love, when you don't reciprocate those feelings- that's just cruel.  Not all men think with their little head, or think that sex is good no matter what. 

[fib]

Also - with Nick's fantasy night comments and upset because "those were fiancee type things"...   his indignation and disbelief was more like he was a virgin and a'saving himself' for marriage but Andi used her womanly wiles on him and now he is 'spoiled."

 

We never got to hear a discussion about Nick's opinions on sex, but I think the fact that he comes from a family with 11 kids is pretty telling.  Even if he doesn't fully espouse the sexual morays of his family, he clearly lived for years in a world where sex was about procreation. I think its clearly something he takes seriously, and I don't think he would have had sex with Andy if he didn't think he was the final one.  I don't think he thinks she was slutty for having sex with him, I think he was upset that she didn't take the circumstances and the decision to sleep with him seriously. 

That said, I think he sort of set himself up for that… he was telling her in Belgium that he could tell she was in love with him… before he even said he was falling in love with her.  I think this clearly shows he's not great at reading her, or maybe this is an aspect of being a salesman? You have to believe that you can sell everyone or you won't sell anyone.  

I feel bad for Nick, but I still don't like him much.  

[ribboninthesky1]

That said, I think he sort of set himself up for that… he was telling her in Belgium that he could tell she was in love with him… before he even said he was falling in love with her.  I think this clearly shows he's not great at reading her,

 

This is why I ultimately didn't feel that sorry for him.  He'd been reading the situation completely wrong for awhile (though he still seemed to think otherwise, months later, while watching the show), and that's not counting the premise of the show that he knowingly walked into. 

 

I neither know or care about Nick's feelings on sex, but I did wonder, if sex in this context was so meaningful to him, why he wouldn't have waited until official confirmation from Andi in the guise of her verbalizing her feelings? He never said he felt he had to have sex in order to be chosen - he assumed he was the one.  So, what difference would a day (or week, whatever) have made?  I wondered the same about Andi as well, but she has no sympathy card to play.  Ultimately, two adults chose to have sex within the context of the show, knowing very well what it could (or could not) mean. Either of them could have refrained, but chose not to.

 

But then, I've never felt sorry for women who have sex with the Bachelor, either.  It's the height of naïveté, at best, stupidity at worst, to have sex with someone within the context of the show, and then claim expectations of monogamy if they're not the F1.  Just...what?  

[pitchy]

Then fast forward to the AFTR and she walks out cold, seemingly lacking any empathy and almost looking annoyed that she even had to deal with the conversation even though pretty much almost every lead has to face their F2 at the AFTR special. And Nick has stated this as well, that that was the thing that completely threw him that night, just how cold and almost angry she was towards him, no sympathy, emotion, etc. 

 

A lot of people have said she had every right to be cold to him because he had been "stalking" her and was furthermore just a wily, calculating guy who had focused only on "winning" and when he didn't get the 'prize' decided on revenge.

But I remember being surprised when he was doing a talking-head moment and explaining to the camera what it was that he liked about Andi, and as he started to to list the qualities that impressed him, he got tears in his eyes and had a hard time controlling them.

 The same thing happened when he was trying to explain to his mother what it was about her that got to him, and his eyes teared up again.  It happened very quickly each time.  When she said that she'd wanted to see him happy because he always treated her so well ... it reminded me of the fact that men who are good to their moms (and vice versa) -tend- to be good to their wives.

So I didn't buy the idea that he was just cold and calculating when it came to pursuing Andi.  I've no doubt he wanted to win, but it seemed clear to me that his heart did get caught up in that special unreality of this show.

When Andi came out and was so cold immediately, I was actually shocked.  Most leads have known they should at least attempt to look somewhat interested in how their rejected F2 was doing.  She treated him, in front of millions, as if he were some kind of enemy.  Maybe she was putting that on for Josh's sake, since I can't imagine why she'd act like that -- but then she was probably remembering his reaction in his room the next morning when he said he felt she'd taken it "too far," and she tends to be cold when she's not being praised.

 

As far as Nick goes, I always felt he was too boyish for his age but in their one-on-one talks, he just seemed more caught up in it emotionally than when I see someone like Arie or Jef who tended to come off as players, I thought.  His reactions the morning she let him know (stealing his "Something didn't feel right") were so raw --and he was trying so hard to not show his feelings -- that I just found it really hard to watch.  I'm used to viewing this show for  'fun' and as something no one can take seriously.  

Edited August 10, 2014 by pitchy

[Padma]

Personally, I love Nick for not being all stereotypical-macho and for saying that just because he's a man doesn't mean he takes sex casually. I think his idea is refreshing to hear said publicly--that he felt they were in love (and imo Andi gave him every reason to think so) and that's why they were going to be intimate in the FS.  I agree with him so completely that there was no reason she had to go that far in order to satisfy the show's requirement to lead him on.

 

Then again, I thought she was self-centered and narcissistic in JP's season, so for her to treat Nick so much worse than Juan Pablo treated her--and be far less pleasant or contrite about it than he was--just confirms my poor impression of her.  (Hopefully, if Nick ever becomes TB he will "practice what he preaches" and not wind up taking advantage of his F3 --all "in love with him" of course-- just because he can.

 

You can tell a lot by how people treat those who they don't want anything from. The way she discarded Nick and his feelings was, imo, cold, spoiled and bitchy. She's lucky Nick is apparently so much nicer to her than she (and her gang-up of friends on Twitter) were to Juan Pablo. I think she deserves worse.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Padma

[truthaboutluv]

 

Then again, I thought she was self-centered and narcissistic in JP's season, so for her to treat Nick so much worse than Juan Pablo treated her--and be far less pleasant or contrite about it than he was--just confirms my poor impression of her.  (Hopefully, if Nick ever becomes TB he will "practice what he preaches" and not wind up taking advantage of his F3 --all "in love with him" of course-- just because he can.

 

Honestly, there was always a part of me that believed and still believe that Andi played up her exit with Juan Pablo to secure that Bachelorette role. I don't doubt she was annoyed with him because let's face it, plenty of the women were annoyed with Juan Pablo but the way she just kept going on and on and was so dramatic about it, I came away feeling like this was her audition tape. She did enough to be the talk of the episode and one of the highlights of the season and therefore a strong contender for The Bachelorette.

 

I remember my friend who watched the season faithfully pretty much said the same thing to me when I asked about it, before I had a chance to watch the clip online but read all the media, She pretty much said that she was with Andi at the beginning but she just kept going on and on and wouldn't shut the hell up and was being so dramatic that it just annoyed her. And well it certainly worked out for her.

 

That's why I think it's so funny when I read comments that Nick has played up his heartbreak and dropped the bombshell to make a play for The Bachelor - all I could think is well he would have learned from the best. In any case, I personally believe if there was any playing up by Nick it was probably at the request of the producers he had to appease since he accidentally spoiled the season. 

Edited August 11, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[MsPH]

A lot of people have said she had every right to be cold to him because he had been "stalking" her and was furthermore just a wily, calculating guy who had focused only on "winning" and when he didn't get the 'prize' decided on revenge.

 

I've started wondering if she actually believes that herself. At least based on what she's said and done after the show ended, she definitely seems to think he was just acting his hurt on ATFR and only wanted revenge. To me that's just ridiculous, because you could pretty much read all his thoughts and feelings on his face. He seemed nervous but excited at the same time before she came on stage, but her stone-cold demeanor totally threw him off. Yet he was still polite and respectful, and it seemed he didn't even know what to ask anymore since he'd said his peace in that letter. But then Chris Harrison started digging and she started putting her foot in her mouth and you could see his brain starting to work. Like "Wait a minute, so you think it's great that I fell totally in love with you and you actually wanted to encourage it, even though you were never in love with me? You think it was great relationship, even though I was all in and you were just enjoying the attention while Josh was taking his time?" and then the infamous question. I'm sure there was an element of anger involved (thinking she was cavalier), but it was raised in the moment due to what he was hearing and I can't really blame him. But I doubt Andi has watched it back since and I don't think she'd even dare to. It's more convenient to think he was just an asshole and she was the victim. That way she can once again avoid taking any responsibility for her actions or behaviour. Don't have to feel any guilt either since he was just acting.

 

I'm just not sure if she thinks he was acting the whole time or just on ATFR. Did she fall for the villain edit herself, since he'd shown anger instead obvious sadness (due to being totally shell-shocked) on that last day? Josh was probably telling her how no one in the house liked him and they all thought he just wanted to win, whereas her friends were perhaps telling her she dodged a bullet while watching the show with her. So she started thinking he was never genuine. That would somewhat explain why she acted the way she did during ATFR, but it also makes her seem quite immature and insecure in her own perception. I still think it's a defence mechanism to avoid feeling any guilt.

 

At least the whole "I let you go before the rose ceremony because I respected our relationship!" is total BS. As if she herself would want to dump him only moments before Josh proposing. No one wants that, if they can help it, since it puts a damper on the engagement. Of course they'd rather do it earlier and focus on the one they chose. If she really respected Nick, she would've let him go before he even met her parents, since she claims she knew it was Josh after their Fantasy Date.

 

The more I think about it the more I think she has some serious issues and growing up to do. I hope Josh can help with that, or get out soon if he can't.

[Katmai]

I attended the UGA/Troy game in Athens, GA, today. Guess who were announced to the crowd and shown on the jumbo-tron like they were celebrities? Josh & Andi. They stood there waving and smiling like they were royalty. I think I vomited a little in my mouth. My son, who was in the student section, said all the girls around him squealed when Josh was announced and said he was so classy and such a wonderful person (like any of them would know). He vomited a little in his mouth then, too. Like mother, like son.

[NikSac]

I attended the UGA/Troy game in Athens, GA, today. Guess who were announced to the crowd and shown on the jumbo-tron like they were celebrities? Josh & Andi. They stood there waving and smiling like they were royalty. I think I vomited a little in my mouth. My son, who was in the student section, said all the girls around him squealed when Josh was announced and said he was so classy and such a wonderful person (like any of them would know). He vomited a little in his mouth then, too. Like mother, like son.

 

Hee... must admit that's kind of cute, in a gross way. Unless these are some unusual breed of teens/early 20s kids, if Josh and Andi even managed to get them to look away from their phones for 5 seconds that's pretty impressive.

 

A few years ago I would've been going "who???" but I knew a guy who dated one of the former Bachelorettes (before she was cast) so I've been sucked into this show ever since.  I probably would've been the only one in my section going "I know who Josh and Andi are!"  I'm thinking my husband would've made an abrupt rush for the bathroom, hot dogs, or whatever he could think of that would require making a run for it.

[himela]

I'm not going to bet that Nick did honestly love Andi, after all it's reality TV. But I think that Andi lost all my respect after the way she handled the Nick situation. In my mind, if I'm in love with a man (as she claimed to be the day of the proposal with Josh) I can't see myself having sex with another man unless I have some feelings for that other man as well. Andi lied to us in our face contradicting herself by saying whatever she said to Nick was true at the time and then that she was not in love with him. I had high expectations from her only due to her profession and t o the fact that she was really cautious throughout the season asking tough questions to the bachelors and showing that she was really serious about finding a husband. But I found ridiculous the fact that she was saying the whole season that she always used to date the athletic kind of guys without any good results but now she knew better and she wouldn't fall for a good body but in the end she did just that. Nick took things too far and I guess he wanted to be seen as the victim and having revenge rather than getting closure from his relationship with Andi. In all honesty I think Andi is fake and she has no idea what she wants from her life. She seemed so serious and mature at the beginning but then choosing the athletic guy proved she is immature and superficial.

[Nedsdag]

It's over!:

 

http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/andi-dorfman-josh-murray-split-five-months-after-bachelorette-finale-201581

[Artsda]

Not shocked, his family must be thrilled. 

 

They probably had to put on that fake act on the live show. Something was off with them.

 

How funny Nikki and JP lasted longer.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Artsda

[TheFinalRose]

Not shocked, his family must be thrilled.

 

 

Nick must be thrilled! I wonder if he's over her, or if he still wants her back.

[MsPH]

Nick definitely knows he dodged a bullet: http://uk.eonline.com/news/612788/bachelorette-runner-up-nick-viall-surprised-by-andi-dorfman-s-breakup-with-josh-murray-heartbreak-is-tough

[truthaboutluv]

As I noted in another thread, I believe Nick got all the closure he needed from Andi at the live reunion. In a number of his media interviews that followed he mentioned being so thrown by her demeanor and I remember even Nancy O'Dell from ET, when interviewing him, was like "she was very cold..."

 

That was also part of the reason he said he blurted out what he did because he was so baffled sitting there hearing her so cold and abrasive towards him that it made even less sense why she slept with him. So I totally believe that Nick is more than over Andi Dorfman. 

Edited January 9, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[Adeejay]

What does it say about Andi when most posters on Yahoo and MSN message boards are saying that Josh dodged a bullet. 

Edited January 9, 2015 by Adeejay