S01.E01: New World Order

[Cobalt Stargazer]

3 hours ago, paigow said:

Zemo never had super mutant strength...

True, and I might have gotten a little mixed up since it was a night scene and everyone was wearing masks, even Torres, though he was probably doing it for some non-nefarious reason. Zemo's the real wild card here, because I'm eighty percent sure Fugazi Cap is at best a pawn and at worst evil, since every time the government gets involved in making things 'better' it turns into a huge fuck of clusters. Though it does bring me to another question: does this "new" version of Captain America have a similarly knocked off version of the super serum? Even if he's just out there for propaganda, they've made him their new symbol. Would they not give him that boost in addition to everything else he's been handed?

[cambridgeguy]

5 hours ago, lawrbk said:

And they not only gave him the shield but they named Walker Captain America AND called him Cap! Steve is my favorite so I felt personally affronted. 🙂 No one else is ‘Cap’. Eff them. Plus yanking the shield right of the exhibit? I mean, since the shield was Steve’s and he gave it to Sam personally and he bequeathed it TO THE EXHIBIT, do they even have the right to take it? Because of there were ownership questions they sure didn’t show them. Seemed pretty straightforward that Sam just didn’t want it (as opposed to he didn’t have a choice) but didn’t want it anywhere but Steve’s exhibit. Plus, not that they know it, but it’s not the 1940s shield since Thanos hacked it up. No matter whether he’s time loop Steve or alternate timeline Steve, that’s a new shield. So it’s definitely his anyway you look at it. But even still, Tony had possession last, gave it to Steve personally and Steve turned around and bequeathed it to Sam. He needs to raise a stink. It’s so disrespectful to Steve and Sam both. It’s like giving a museum an art piece on long term loan and they turn around and sell it.

If Walker spends all his time singing and dancing then yeah, he doesn't need the real shield.  However, if Walker is going to be doing superhero stuff then it makes Sam look incredibly petty.   Give that life saving piece of equipment back to me.  No, I'm not going to use it, I just don't like you using it while you're off performing heroic deeds.  If Sam can gets his hands of a replacement (so how tightly is Wakanda controlling vibranium in the post-Endgame universe) then that's different, but it seems like vibranium will remain very hard to get.

[arc]

2 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Though it does bring me to another question: does this "new" version of Captain America have a similarly knocked off version of the super serum? Even if he's just out there for propaganda, they've made him their new symbol. Would they not give him that boost in addition to everything else he's been handed?

Canonically in the MU and the spin-off “Ultimate” universe that a lot of the early MCU was based on, the super soldier serum was lost when Dr Erskine died though of course there have been many attempts to re-create it.

But then again the MCU also likes to cheat what unenhanced humans can do. Sam is supposedly normal aside from his Falcon flying gear, but catching whole grown adult humans falling in the sky would probably dislocate a regular person’s arms.

[swanpride]

Quote

I have not had the pleasure of reading that particular Fanfic.

Wait, you never read "This, you protect"? First part of the "infinity Coffee and protection detail" series? Oh, you are missing out!!!! I mean, this is one of the biggest fics of the MCU fandom in general, translated into multiple languages and with a lot of fanfics by other writers attached to it.

Btw, my remark about all the psychiatrist offices in TV looking like the one from Monk nowadays was a somewhat serious question...is that Monk influence or do this offices really look that way in the US? You know, aggressively calming (it's really the best way to describe it).

 

I don't think that the shield is replaceable, unless they take the pieces from the one which was destroyed by Thanos and rebuilt it somehow….It's not just about the vibranium, it's about the fact that Cap used it.

 

[paigow]

On 3/19/2021 at 8:58 AM, SeanC said:

but in this case I would say that Sam should really have more options than the writers seem to want him to have here --

Skrull!Fury has enough money to hijack a high school EuroTrip... fixing a Bubba Gump era shrimp boat should be easy...

[Abra]

I'm greedy and wanted Sam, Bucky, and maybe Sharon to have met up somehow by the end of the episode, but I'm perfectly content with how the episode turned out. (Partly because I'm assuming it will happen next episode.) I enjoyed (if that's the right word) seeing more of Sam and Bucky's life as it is now, loved the aerial combat scene in the beginning, loved the Rhodey cameo, really liked Torres and am looking forward to seeing more of him, liked Sarah and her strength and want more of her/the kids, and hate the loan officer asshole and the dickweed at the Smithsonian who took SAM'S SHIELD.

Getting flowers on a first date is not old-fashioned! 😞 Damn.

I like that they brought Henry Jackman back to do the score for this show, but I am not a fan of the closing credits musics (or graphics). But at least it didn't make me automatically sad the way Christophe Beck's did for WandaVision, even before I knew just how damn sad that show would get.

Quote

Here is another downvote for Captaint America.

I'm assuming that was a typo, but it had me cackling. If that was Wyatt Russell in that costume, oh what an unfortunate look. I can only hope wardrobe played him up to look as ridiculous as possible in the moment. (The memes are hilarious.) Now it's possible that we're being duped again with his casting the way WandaVision viewers were with Emma Caufield, but I can't quite buy him being cast to play a one-note jingoistic character that we'll all be hating without exception. I'm obviously speculating, but media reports that this show is really about identity, and I feel that is going to apply to his character as well.

Oops, I looked at the full cast and crew list on IMDB. Both interesting and disappointing.

[SeanC]

22 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

And maybe I'm just used to other TV heroes but it is amazing how detached most of the MCU people are from every day heroics.  Aside from Spidey the rest seem to be involved with just government or secret agent work rather than patrolling a specific city.

The MCU has mostly been drawing on Avengers comics characters who tend to focus on planetary-level threats and international adventuring.  Though this also reflects differences between DC Comics and Marvel Comics, as the former tended to give each of its headliners their own city, whereas almost every major Marvel hero by default resides in New York and either patrols the whole city or some specific sub-section (as with Daredevil, micromanaging the hell out of a few blocks of Manhattan).

There are Marvel heroes more concerned with street-level crime, but we haven't seen them in the MCU yet (other than the Marvel Netflix shows that aren't really canon).

[festivus]

48 minutes ago, Abra said:

I like that they brought Henry Jackman back to do the score for this show, but I am not a fan of the closing credits musics (or graphics).

I think the same thing about the music but I love the graphics. I noticed a few things myself and thanks to the nerds on you-tube I now know more interesting things.

Some things little touches in the show I did notice myself are Bucky once again breaking up back alley trashcan fights and stopping Maneki Neko's arm from moving. He's not feeling lucky. We didn't get a name for his date did we? I hope we see her again. Also, it is confusing but I believe Bucky only has the one sister, I think he was calling out a position for her battleship that sounded like 4 (something). It was muddy. I also like that Sam's sister is Sarah, same as Steve's mom. I've always liked the fact that the same names keep showing up, just like the real world. 

[Abra]

4 hours ago, swanpride said:

Btw, my remark about all the psychiatrist offices in TV looking like the one from Monk nowadays was a somewhat serious question...is that Monk influence or do this offices really look that way in the US? You know, aggressively calming (it's really the best way to describe it).

I have never seen a psychiatrist or any mental health counselor's office look like what it did in this show. I did have one therapist who got an office next to a wooded area with a creek, so that was actually nice (and distracting when the birds would frequently try to come through the window), but her windows were normal size and height and I was usually sunk onto the couch so couldn't see that much. I've definitely never been in an office that had the wide floor to ceiling windows like an Architectural Digest ad.  I guess I can't afford a mental health practice that can afford to rent office space in those kinds of buildings. :)

38 minutes ago, festivus said:

Some things little touches in the show I did notice myself are Bucky once again breaking up back alley trashcan fights and stopping Maneki Neko's arm from moving. He's not feeling lucky. We didn't get a name for his date did we? I hope we see her again. Also, it is confusing but I believe Bucky only has the one sister, I think he was calling out a position for her battleship that sounded like 4 (something). It was muddy. I also like that Sam's sister is Sarah, same as Steve's mom. I've always liked the fact that the same names keep showing up, just like the real world. 

I didn't even think he'd stopped the arm because he wasn't feeling lucky, I figured he just found it distracting like my ADHD does.

The woman's name was Leah, and

Spoiler

we will see her again.

And yes, Bucky only said he had a sister, and then gave coordinates to try to sink Leah's battleship (I-4 or B-4).

[kirinan]

12 hours ago, shoetingstar said:

I also kept whispering "Poor, Bucky!" like a total fangirl.

I love this thread because I no longer feel alone in my "poor Bucky"-isms. Ever since my husband and I saw The Winter Soldier, we've referred to it as "Poor Bucky" because that's what I kept saying through the whole thing—a practice that started when Steve found him again in The First Avenger and has kept up in every Bucky appearance since. I always want to give him a big hug.

We both enjoyed this first episode, but in different ways. I love the deeper exploration of Bucky and Sam's characters. My husband, who's been a diehard Silver Age comic fanboy for decades (he's old, like me), thought the episode was a bit slow but he still enjoyed it. Unlike me, he knew nothing about what to expect when he went in so when he said, "That has to be Batroc" the second he heard the French accent I knew he was hooked. He likes the callbacks to the stories he remembers, so I think he'll keep watching (and he wasn't interested in watching WandaVision at all). I'm embarrassingly easy when it comes to the MCU, especially anything even tangentially related to Cap, so I knew I was in it for the duration the second I heard this was coming out. But I am impatiently waiting for Sam and Bucky to meet.

Edited March 20, 2021 by kirinan

[swanpride]

Speaking of Jackman, can we take a moment to appreciate how effective his Winter Soldier score still is? I didn't need any explanation to know that the guy on the screen wasn't Bucky but the Winter Soldier, because the score told me. And it still gives me the creeps.

 

I wonder how long Bucky's amends list is….and how the hell do you make amends for "Oh, I killed Kennedy"?

[paigow]

2 hours ago, festivus said:

I've always liked the fact that the same names keep showing up, just like the real world. 

Maybe the shrink is Martha and Sharon Carter has a sister named Martha...

[foxfreakinmulder]

On 3/19/2021 at 3:38 AM, Hana Chan said:

And then we have Bucky... my poor Bucky. Glad that he's in therapy because if there's anyone who needs it, it's him. And while his therapist is hard on him, I think she does have his best interest in heart. Bucky has been pardoned, though I would argue that it's kind of ridiculous to hold a POW who'd been tortured and brainwashed for decades in any way responsible for what he'd done. Legally, at least. I get that Bucky holds himself personally responsible and is struggling to see how he can make amends for what he'd done while figuring out what he can be in a civilian life. My heart broke when he spoke about only having a brief moment of peace while he was in Wakanda before being dragged into another fight, Blipped out, then returning for a last huge battle. I hope that it gets framed that this making amends is at least as much about helping him forgive himself as it is trying to help repair some of the damage that he was used to cause.

I agree! Honestly, for me Bucky is the only reason I'm interested in this show. And in my book the only Captain America is Steve Rogers/Chris Evans.

That was some great flying action scenes in the beginning of the episode, it felt more like movie than tv action. Did the Falcon have that drone on his back in any other movie, I can't remember?

I didn't know military personal could just go out on their own like Torres (name?) did. First he jumps in the jeep and leaves his guys behind then he goes out to investigate the New World Order. 

Edited March 20, 2021 by foxfreakinmulder

[Dandesun]

We first saw the drone Redwing in Civil War. I get it, it works for the set up they have in the MCU but I am That Dork who loves comics!Sam being able to talk to birds and that he has an a hawk companion he can communicate telepathically with.

And Pet Avengers was hilarious. Especially when they met Power Pack.

ANYWAY... yes we have seen MCU Redwing before.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Sam: "Don't thank me, thank Red Wing."

Natasha: "I'm not thanking that thing."

[Captain Carrot]

12 hours ago, shoetingstar said:

However, he looked goofy-as-hell in Cap's Mask. Chris Evans really does give "good face." James Marden wasn't available?

I have to wonder if they purposely made him look bad in the mask as a sign that he isn't a good fit for the role. And I have to wonder if he'll be a villain, just incompetent, or just a bad fit but not a horrible person.

 

And I don't know why I bother to read the AV Club reviews for highly serialized shows. They always make a comment criticizing the fact that it's serialized (even if they then admit it's necessary for the story):

Quote

The first episode of The Falcon And The Winter Soldier often feels like frustrating prologue. However, it’s necessary to give both characters the space to breathe in their own plotlines, especially now that their mutual connection—Steve Rogers—is missing.

 

Edited March 20, 2021 by Captain Carrot

[Dandesun]

Not everyone looks good in hats, either. Chris Evans just happens to have The Face that can wear the helmet. Maybe that’s why they worked so hard to woo him to play the role. Also, you know, they tailor made those outfits For Him. I would definitely say that part of the role of Not Cap is that he just doesn’t look right in the role.

Sam might not look right in the helmet, either, but the difference is that STEVE chose Sam as his successor very specifically because Sam would be his own man. Bearded Government Dickweed wants someone to be Captain America to take Steve’s place but you can’t replace Steve Rogers. That’s the whole point and I dare say Steve would be the first to say ‘do your own thing, I’m not asking you to be me.’

[bethy]

I enjoyed this pilot, though I was sad we didn't get any Sam and Bucky interaction at all. I like that Sam's been reaching out to Bucky even if Bucky is ignoring him. 

I thought Anthony Mackie and Sebastian Stan both did great jobs. Sam's sadness and love when he was paying tribute to Steve made me tear up a little, I have to admit. And Bucky's little facial tics when he was lying about his life were great. I also loved Bucky's awkward/nervous chuckle when his date laughed after he said he was 106. Like, "Oh, haha, yes just joking there." 

I agree with those who have said they think they racial issues are there, just in the background right now. I felt like you could see the realization on Sam's face when he was watching the new "Cap" be announced - pain for the disrespect to Steve and the realization that his refusal to take up the shield had been so quickly - and deceitfully - accepted because he wasn't considered "hero" material. Sickening. There's some naivite in Sam that neither his sister or Rhodey (I think Rhodey was aware what was going on even if Sam wasn't yet) have. 

I loved the shrink and her back and forth with Bucky about writing things down. It was really interesting to me that she'd seen combat herself and so would have a perspective and maybe some authority a non-military psychiatrist might not have with Bucky.

Also, am I the only one old enough to have to keep themselves from saying Falcon and the Snowman when talking about this show? 

[silverstream]

1 hour ago, foxfreakinmulder said:

I didn't know military personal could just go out on their own like Torres (name?) did. First he jumps in the jeep and leaves his guys behind then he goes out to investigate the New World Order. 

I might be jumping the gun here, but that's when I decided I didn't like Torres. When he went "lol, these people are so gullible, they root for an organization that wants no borders!" (paraphrased) without giving any other information about said group or what's evil about them, I put that down to bad writing / them wanting a bigger reveal of what's evil about that group, but then he went and joined one of those group's meetings and participated not only by simply being there but by beating up a policeman and then trying to "arrest" someone (I've got a hard time believing he even has the authority to do that, unless - see below).

If it turns out he was there on an official investigation I'll reassess, but it certainly wasn't presented like that.

[Kel Varnsen]

On 3/19/2021 at 7:13 AM, Hana Chan said:

Curious to see where this is going to go because nothing regarding Zemo was in any way Bucky's (of the Winter Soldier's) fault.

Could be like the senator at the beginning. What she has been doing as a corrupt senator isn't Bucky's fault but the Winter Soldier putting her in power allowed her to hurt people. Same with Zemo, WS giving him power, allowed him to hurt people.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

55 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Could be like the senator at the beginning. What she has been doing as a corrupt senator isn't Bucky's fault but the Winter Soldier putting her in power allowed her to hurt people. Same with Zemo, WS giving him power, allowed him to hurt people.

Kind of, but not really. In the final act of Civil War, Zemo tells T'Challa that the Avengers were indirectly responsible for the deaths of his father, wife and son. They lived either in or near to Sokovia when the whole Ultron thing happened, and they were killed in the aftermath of the explosion, I guess by flying debris and such. He was some kind of black ops type, a colonel in the Sokovian army.

"And the Avengers? They went home. I knew I couldn't kill them. More powerful men than me have tried. But, if I could get them to kill each other....."

He did use Bucky as a pawn, and the seeds of distrust towards enhanced people among the general population might have already been planted without that, but his "Why" kind of gets lost in the "Tony is a heartless bastard" war chant that kicked up after the film hit theaters. As he did with Mr. Yori's son, the Winter Solider did murder Howard and Maria Stark, so it both did and didn't have to do with Barnes that Zemo got involved at all.

[foxfreakinmulder]

2 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Sam: "Don't thank me, thank Red Wing."

Natasha: "I'm not thanking that thing."

Thanks Cobalt Stargazer I remember that now 🙂

[johntfs]

One thing I think people have missed about the bank scene is that Sam is not poor or broke.  He offered to give his sister money to fix the boat/pay debts but she refused.  And he refused to let her sell the boat.  The compromise was that Sam would cosign the loan to the sister.  However the bank refused to accept Sam as a cosigner because of the Blip thing (and also because institutional racism).

[Bruinsfan]

On 3/19/2021 at 10:48 AM, Kel Varnsen said:

Also keep in mind that Bill O'Reilly exists in the MCU and would probably have a lot to say about heroes like Bucky.

Probably "Why are people up in arms about HYDRA's super-powered assassin when the REAL enemy is hot women who think 'no' means no?"

On 3/19/2021 at 12:33 PM, Hana Chan said:

Bigger question is how Bucky is supporting himself since I don't see him having any kind of job. Maybe 90 years of military back pay? Because that was an awfully nice apartment he had.

Maybe either he remembers all kinds of emergency stockpiles of valuables from his Cold War days and uses them, or the fact that he's buddies with the royal family of the most advanced nation on the planet.

[paigow]

7 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

or the fact that he's buddies with the royal family of the most advanced nation on the planet.

He probably pays for lattes with Vibranium nuggets

[Cthulhudrew]

13 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Though it does bring me to another question: does this "new" version of Captain America have a similarly knocked off version of the super serum? 

I'll be interested to see if he does, or if one is coming. I know how it played out in the comics, but it remains to be seen if they'll do something similar here. It wouldn't surprise me if he is augmented or will become so; while it has never been clear exactly how much of the Norton "Incredible Hulk" is canon, we do know that the government there used a version or partial recreation of the Super Soldier Serum along with other experimental chemicals to create the Abomination. And Thunderbolt Ross is the same character in Hulk and in the rest of the MCU, so it seems possible (likely?) that they are still experimenting with the Super Soldier Serum.

11 hours ago, arc said:

But then again the MCU also likes to cheat what unenhanced humans can do. Sam is supposedly normal aside from his Falcon flying gear, but catching whole grown adult humans falling in the sky would probably dislocate a regular person’s arms.

He did dislocate his shoulder when catching Cap in "Winter Soldier." Maybe he had some kind of strength enhancement/skeletal reinforcement built into his costume since.

(More likely though, you are right, and different writers/directors play fast and loose as needed for the action.)

On 3/19/2021 at 10:33 AM, Hana Chan said:

Bigger question is how Bucky is supporting himself since I don't see him having any kind of job. Maybe 90 years of military back pay? Because that was an awfully nice apartment he had.

Hah. Good question. Maybe he was putting money in the stock market on the sly during his Assassination Activations. A couple thou here and there over 90 years; he could have quite a savings built up.

[bethy]

8 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

He did dislocate his shoulder when catching Cap in "Winter Soldier." Maybe he had some kind of strength enhancement/skeletal reinforcement built into his costume since.

Did he dislocate it? I remember him commenting on how heavy Steve was - he’d had a big breakfast - but not that he’d injured himself.

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

He probably pays for lattes with Vibranium nuggets

They said in Wandavision that Vision's vibranium body is worth billions. If that is the case then the equivalent of some finger nail clippings from Bucky's arm are probably enough to set him up for life.

[MisterGlass]

I initially thought that Yori was supposed to be the elderly version of the Howling Commando Jim Morita.

Regarding Bucky and maneki neko, to me he stopped the arm either because it was mocking his arm and making him self conscious, or because he wanted to free it from its programming.

[Cthulhudrew]

3 hours ago, bethy said:

Did he dislocate it? I remember him commenting on how heavy Steve was - he’d had a big breakfast - but not that he’d injured himself.

You're right: I misremembered. I know he screamed when he caught him, and my assumption was it was in pain, but when he lands later, his arm seems fine.

[KittenPokerCheater]

19 hours ago, shoetingstar said:

It amused me that in Bucky's very first scene here, with the shrink, he probably had more dialogue than he's had in all his movies so far put together! 

HA!  I *just* realized that myself!

I thought Yori was one of his friends that he knew back in World War 2 who was still around.  So realizing that Bucky had killed Yori's son was very sad.

[swanpride]

Honestly, that his sister is still alive (as the fact that he talks about her in present tense suggests) would be a miracle. People who were children during that period are now in their 80s or 90s.

[lawrbk]

11 hours ago, paigow said:

He probably pays for lattes with Vibranium nuggets

I know it doesn’t work for the purpose of the show (him staying in wakanda) but I wonder if they’ll mention wakanda. That was the only peace Bucky’s had in modern times—when he had his little goat hut. He didn’t even have his mechanical arm. I doubt they kicked him out. Maybe he felt Thanos was a sign he couldn’t hide in the countryside or something. He’d looked so defeated when tchalla showed up with the new arm. But there’s always a fight. But I’d like to hear him reference it maybe. 

Edited March 21, 2021 by lawrbk

[lawrbk]

1 hour ago, swanpride said:

Honestly, that his sister is still alive (as the fact that he talks about her in present tense suggests) would be a miracle. People who were children during that period are now in their 80s or 90s.

Perhaps he’s still getting used to the fact. He may have only just found out given his circumstances. So he keeps using the present tense. It could also be a comfort thing along those lines. I did that when my father passed away unexpectedly. I think I referred to him in the present tense purposely and unconsciously for months. 

[johntfs]

10 minutes ago, lawrbk said:

I know it doesn’t work for the purpose of the show (him staying in wakanda) but I wonder if they’ll mention wakanda. That was the only peace Bucky’s had in modern times—when he had his little goat hut. He didn’t even have his mechanical arm. I doubt they kicked him out. Maybe he felt Thanos was a sign he couldn’t hide in the countryside or something. He’d looked so defeated when tchalla showed up with the new arm. But there’s always a fight. But I’d like to hear him reference it maybe. 

Bucky did reference it when he talked to the psychologist.  He noted that he had "a moment of peace" in Wakanda.

[Danny Franks]

2 minutes ago, johntfs said:

Bucky did reference it when he talked to the psychologist.  He noted that he had "a moment of peace" in Wakanda.

Which prompts the question - why he didn't go back to Wakanda, where he does know people and does have an existing support system? He was friendly with Shuri, and with T'Challa and probably with other people as well. But it goes back to what he was talking about with Amy Aquino - he doesn't want that peace, he doesn't feel like he deserves it, so he's trying to make amends that can honestly never be made.

It's definitely reminiscent of Jason Bourne in The Bourne Supremacy, where he crosses Europe, being chased by the CIA and by a Russian assassin, almost getting killed several times, just to tell a young woman in a Moscow apartment that the story she was told about her parents dying - that the mother killed the father and then herself - was a lie, that he killed them. Is it the right thing to do? To bring that pain back in your attempt to explain it? Is ignorance sometimes better? Are you really doing it for that person or are you doing it for yourself? Will it make any difference at all? Hopefully this show will attempt to answer those questions.

Rewatching the episode, I find myself annoyed that they didn't show Bucky's reaction to the new Captain America. Maybe we'll get that next episode, but it still irritates me a little that they couldn't cut between him and Sam finding out at the same time.

[johntfs]

4 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

Re-watching the episode, I find myself annoyed that they didn't show Bucky's reaction to the new Captain America. Maybe we'll get that next episode, but it still irritates me a little that they couldn't cut between him and Sam finding out at the same time.

I was fine with that.  The news came right on the heels of Sam and his sister not getting the loan, so it functioned as a "one-two punch" of "yeah, racism is still very much a thing."  Cutting between Sam and Bucky would have undercut that.  Plus, I don't think the reaction would have been quite as pronounced for Bucky, who is likely far more cynical about government/military maneuverings than Sam is/was.  It would probably be something like "God-dammit Wilson, you had to know they'd do something like this.  You should have claimed the mantle while you had the chance."

[Morrigan2575]

14 hours ago, bethy said:

that his refusal to take up the shield had been so quickly - and deceitfully -

Not even that, it seems like they asked him to give up the shield and, played on his love for Steve...oh we want to honor him and out the shield in the Smithsonian where it belongs.  Meanwhile they always planned to give it to a white guy...who could properly represent America 🙄

The only other alternative (if MCU avoids the race issue) is that they wanted a Captain America they could control. A symbol they could send out to collect war bonds and punch Hitler. Rather than someone to carry on Capt's legacy of fighting the good fight.

Either way I think they have the basis for it built in but, I expect them to lean towards the racial issues.

[Hana Chan]

1 minute ago, Morrigan2575 said:

The only other alternative (if MCU avoids the race issue) is that they wanted a Captain America they could control. A symbol they could send out to collect war bonds and punch Hitler. Rather than someone to carry on Capt's legacy of fighting the good fight.

Either way I think they have the basis for it built in but, I expect them to lean towards the racial issues.

Steve Rogers was the ultimate rule breaker. He didn't so much care about the law as doing what he thought was right. This is the guy who ditched his lame official duties to go untrained behind enemy lines on the remote chance he might be able to rescue his friend. He almost singlehanded destroyed SHIELD because it had turned into a nest of HYRDA sympathizers and agents. Then he was the guy who told Thunderbolt Ross to take his Accords and stick them where the sun doesn't shine because he didn't want to be controlled by a government agency that might not always agree with him. And did I mention how he took on all the law enforcement in the world to save the friend that he thought was being unfairly accused of something? More often than not, Steve ended up being right but I'm sure that the US government thought that this paragon of patriotism was a major pain in their collective asses. 

And Sam wasn't much better to them since he did side with Steve during the Accords battle and went underground with him after being broken out of The Raft. Not too much of a stretch to see why the government would want to make sure that the next Cap was firmly under their control. As far as race goes... yeah, it's racist AF to just throw a random (likely enhanced) white guy in the suit but I also think it's so that the public just naturally accepts this K-Mart version. They were used to Steve's face that now they won't have to change any of the merchandising.

Speaking of Bucky... I was doing a lot of thinking about some of the finer details with his storyline here and if Steve's story coming out of the ice was sad, Bucky's is such a fucking tragedy that Shakespeare would have looked at it and gone "Nah... too sad to be believed." And after decades of being tortured, his brain fried and made to murder, it seems like despite the pardon he'd still held at least partly responsible for what happened during this time. Some YouTubers with a lot more time on their hands than I do really went over some of the background details with a fine toothed comb and the new Cap exhibit in the Smithsonian reveals more of what happened to Bucky since his fall and doesn't present it in a sympathetic light. Rather than considering Bucky the longest held POW in history, they connect him directly to the Winter Soldier's crimes, the Avengers break up and Steve going on the run. That's not going to help the general public accept him too well.

Then we get to the idea of his pardon - a pardon is legally offered to eliminate criminal penalties for crimes that the accused (usually) is convicted of or pleads guilty to. In any legal setting, it would not be at all difficult to prove that Bucky was in no way responsible for the crimes his body was used for. A fan theory (that I firmly subscribe to) believes that one of the reasons that HYDRA kept frying his brain was to keep him under control because his serum kept repairing the brain damage it cause and if he was left untreated for too long, the real Bucky was allowed to start returning. To in any way claim that Bucky should be responsible for the killings that HYDRA ordered is not just legally sketchy, it's unbelievably cruel to a man that had suffered far too much already.

And his therapy, I think, is compounding this. The idea of "making amends" and having Bucky be emotionally responsible for undoing the damage that HYDRA ordered just compounds his problems. Bucky is isolated and self-isolating because he doesn't seem to think he deserves anything more. I get that Bucky feels responsible, but I'm waiting for someone... anyone... to really tell Bucky that nothing that happened was ultimately his fault. Because otherwise, I don't see him ever "recovering" in a meaningful way. And Bucky needs a purpose rather than sitting alone in a nearly empty apartment, staring at the walls. The one thing that the therapist said that I totally agreed with is that Bucky's claim of wanting nothing more than "peace" is BS. He needs to find a fight that he feels is worth fighting and not just one that he gets pointed at by the powers that be.

[swanpride]

Maybe Bucky can't go back to Wakanda because staying in the US (at least until Therapy is concluded) is part of the conditions for his pardon? It would be kind of understandable that they don't want him running around in the world before they are sure that he truly can't be triggered anymore.

[Danny Franks]

1 hour ago, Hana Chan said:

Speaking of Bucky... I was doing a lot of thinking about some of the finer details with his storyline here and if Steve's story coming out of the ice was sad, Bucky's is such a fucking tragedy that Shakespeare would have looked at it and gone "Nah... too sad to be believed." And after decades of being tortured, his brain fried and made to murder, it seems like despite the pardon he'd still held at least partly responsible for what happened during this time. Some YouTubers with a lot more time on their hands than I do really went over some of the background details with a fine toothed comb and the new Cap exhibit in the Smithsonian reveals more of what happened to Bucky since his fall and doesn't present it in a sympathetic light. Rather than considering Bucky the longest held POW in history, they connect him directly to the Winter Soldier's crimes, the Avengers break up and Steve going on the run. That's not going to help the general public accept him too well.

Bucky's story in the Captain America comics is one of the best comic book stories of the 21st century, in my opinion. Ed Brubaker did an incredible job of reinventing the character and giving him this huge arc from tragedy to triumph then back again, more than once over.

His guilt and self-doubt and the sense of a debt owed to... everyone, is always palpable and it takes him a long time to trust anyone, especially himself. And he did all of his recovering without Steve in the comics too, due to various circumstances. His rocks were Sam and, to a greater extent, Natasha and they both helped him immeasurably, building up his confidence to the point that he actually believed he could be good enough to carry Steve's legacy as Captain America.

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, Hana Chan said:

it would not be at all difficult to prove that Bucky was in no way responsible for the crimes his body was used for.

How exactly would he prove he was under mind control? We saw what happened to Bucky first hand in the movies but the average MCU citizen would at best be getting  second or third hand info. Hydra is gone and all the big players are dead (Pierce, Stricker). The computer holding Zola's brain are gone and the only two people who saw it are dead or presumed dead. If Bucky was put on trial for someone's murder he did as the soldier what evidence could he present that it was mind control and not just that Hydra talked him into it? Especially since they were able to wipe his memory so his memories would probably not be that great? If someone was a family member of one of his victims would it be likely that they would just take his word for it?

Edited March 21, 2021 by Kel Varnsen

[tv echo]

It's been awhile since I watched Agent Carter, but didn't Peggy dump the last vial of Steve Rogers' blood in the river in 1946, in order to prevent anyone from using it to create new super serum?

Did the U.S. government/military or SHIELD/HYDRA extract more blood from Steve when he was revived in the present day?

IIRC, Steve was the only super soldier created in the 1940's because Dr. Erskine was killed. So any future super serum could only be created using Steve's blood. Unless they're now saying that someone else came up with the same formula.

Edited March 21, 2021 by tv echo

[swanpride]

Quote

How exactly would he prove he was under mind control?

Easily, since there is a whole base in Siberia with video material of what was done to Bucky and what kind of missions he was send to conclude. Plus, he wouldn't get a pardon if it weren't clear that he was innocent. Nobody would allow him to run around if they really believed that he killed in cold blood.

[silverstream]

3 hours ago, swanpride said:

Maybe Bucky can't go back to Wakanda because staying in the US (at least until Therapy is concluded) is part of the conditions for his pardon? It would be kind of understandable that they don't want him running around in the world before they are sure that he truly can't be triggered anymore.

I don't think there's much the US could do if Bucky just up and left for Wakanda; it's unlikely they have an extradition treaty with Wakanda (or that Wakanda would honour it if one existed, in this case), and he's probably not important enough to go to war with the most technologically advanced nation over. If Bucky ever wanted to leave Wakanda again, on the other hand...

[Cobalt Stargazer]

3 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

Speaking of Bucky... I was doing a lot of thinking about some of the finer details with his storyline here and if Steve's story coming out of the ice was sad, Bucky's is such a fucking tragedy that Shakespeare would have looked at it and gone "Nah... too sad to be believed." And after decades of being tortured, his brain fried and made to murder, it seems like despite the pardon he'd still held at least partly responsible for what happened during this time. Some YouTubers with a lot more time on their hands than I do really went over some of the background details with a fine toothed comb and the new Cap exhibit in the Smithsonian reveals more of what happened to Bucky since his fall and doesn't present it in a sympathetic light. Rather than considering Bucky the longest held POW in history, they connect him directly to the Winter Soldier's crimes, the Avengers break up and Steve going on the run. That's not going to help the general public accept him too well.

Honestly? I think Bucky holds himself way more responsible than anyone else ever could, and I'll go a step farther and add that I don't think he'd be seen as a such a squishy woobie within the fandom if he didn't. That's kind of sarcasm, but also kind of not. Given how very little we know about Barnes, because I don't think he ever mentioned having a sister until he was on his date with Leah, he's never been given a voice of his own before. According to Steve, Bucky was always the personable one, who was charming and quick with a joke and very much a success with the ladies, but we never see any of that except for that brief time during First Avenger. And then he disappeared for half a century only to re-emerge as a meat puppet who was killing people, and the only reason he didn't kill Rogers is because of the tiny bit he was able to shake off his programming.

When he told his therapist (does the doctor have a name? I checked IMDB but didn't see one) that the first peace he'd had in a long time was his stint in Wakanda, that confirmed what I'd suspected during Infinity War, that if it hadn't been for Thanos showing up, he'd have been quite happy to ignore the situation. Or maybe happy is the wrong word, maybe he was just so exhausted from having to go out and fight again, and I also think he stayed in Wakanda instead of leaving with the others because he just fucking wanted to be fucking done. All he wanted was some quiet, but like he said to Steve in Civil War, it always ends in a fight.

Question, though: would the collective We find Bucky as sympathetic if he was entirely right in his mind about the things he did? Because you're right, his life has been a tragedy for a long time, but I don't think it's out of line to say that those victims should matter. One of the main complaints I saw about WandaVision was that Wanda didn't feel 'bad enough' about what she was doing, that she wasn't displaying sufficient guilt even though it turned out that she no more meant to mind control those people into living in her sitcom world than Bucky meant to be a murder machine for fifty years. Without getting into if it's better or worse to brainjack people than it is to blow their brains out, because I don't think I want to go there this early in the day, this is the very first time the idea that the deaths Barnes caused shouldn't be brushed aside has come up, if only because Steve's not there to pat him on the shoulder and tell him not to fret over it. Or, y'know, jump in and start beating people up for Bucky's sake.

I would also point out that the mind control was not absolute, and that's the one sticking point here. They wouldn't have had to mindwipe him repeatedly and start all over if it was, and while that does add to the tragic aspect he was able to stop himself from killing Steve and even pull him out of the water when he could have just let him drown. Leaving Rogers behind on the bank doesn't erase that he regained just enough control of his mind and body to let him live, and Steve wasn't even conscious enough to say, "Please. Please don't kill me."

[AimingforYoko]

4 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

Then we get to the idea of his pardon - a pardon is legally offered to eliminate criminal penalties for crimes that the accused (usually) is convicted of or pleads guilty to. In any legal setting, it would not be at all difficult to prove that Bucky was in no way responsible for the crimes his body was used for.

And how much weight does an American pardon hold internationally? Bucky's hits were worldwide.

[Mulva]

I'm still trying to figure out why the banker was racist for not give a loan to someone who has no income, job or assets to prop up a business that hasn't turned a profit in five years.  Sure he was a dick for asking for a selfie after turning down the loan, but I'm not seeing racism.  Wasn't banks giving loans to people with no income, jobs or assets the main reason for the 2008 economic collapse?

[Danny Franks]

19 minutes ago, Mulva said:

I'm still trying to figure out why the banker was racist for not give a loan to someone who has no income, job or assets to prop up a business that hasn't turned a profit in five years.  Sure he was a dick for asking for a selfie after turning down the loan, but I'm not seeing racism.  Wasn't banks giving loans to people with no income, jobs or assets the main reason for the 2008 economic collapse?

I don't think he was racist, at least not consciously so. As far as we were made aware, he was following the regulations that his bank required, even though they didn't make sense in light of the Blip.

But there was definitely an undertone of 'hey, you're one of the good ones,' to the scene that was intended, even if the writing didn't quite get there. Instead of Sam being an NFL player or some other athlete, he's a superhero and thus can be respected by people.

[Crs97]

I am guessing that if Steve Rogers had requested the loan, those bank regulations would have loosened a bit.  Sam said he was seeing bank loans being handed out easily.  As his sister said, when they ask for one, things are suddenly tightening up.

Again, I still say this part rings false.  You don’t let him keep his billion dollar tech suit without paying him.