S01.E06: The Bloody Truth

[cardigirl]

1 hour ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

I'm not going to try and argue that this is a well-written show, because it absolutely was not but I do think they tried to show us that Jonathan had whatever personality disorder he has. In the first or second episode, there was a conversation between Grace and Jonathan about how they didn't have any friends. Whether that was because Jonathan was trying to isolate her or because he always ended up doing something that made it so all of their friends cut them off, we don't know, but that's a sign that something was wrong. In that conversation, Johnathan brushed it off in his bumbling English patter rather than taking Grace seriously.

I think Johnathan used his job in order to excuse a lot of his behavior. From Grace's POV, he was always running off to a patient so that made it OK in her eyes but we learned that he frequently lied to her about it. He also made up a fake dead dog story about his real dead sister so that he'd have a reason to not to get a dog. Those lies are something manipulative people use in order to keep normal, empathy feeling people in line. There's no reason from their POV that someone would make something like that up so they of course believe it. You feel like a fool for having trusted them in hindsight but how were you to know, really?

Everyone around Grace was telling her what Johnathan was really like. There was the doctor at the hospital, her father and his mother. If everyone around you is telling you that someone is not a good person, they are probably not a good person. Also, I do remember from the phone call that Johnathan's mother said they surrounded Johnathan with family after the accident.

Ultimately, you are right that there should have been some flashbacks of problematic moments between Johnathan and Grace to really flesh out their relationship. I think this show made an error in trying to make it more of a "whodunnit" than a psychological thriller.

They weren't telling her what he was like until his deception came to light, though.  At the fundraiser when he said he had to leave, one mother made mention of his sense of humor, his being a pediatric cancer doctor, and his charm and how wonderful he was. People were looking her in the eye and him too! No one was saying BOO to her, until after he disappeared. It was when she was trying to decide if she believed whether or not he was innocent that people started to give her information. No other doctor said anything? Had she never gone to his practice before? 

So for 17 years, her father hadn't liked him, but we weren't shown good ol' dad begging her to leave Jonathon in earlier times? 

For 17 years, she hasn't spoken to his family and she's not curious about it? 

She seemed to have friends from the school, but perhaps they were more acquaintances.  I know the conversation you are speaking of, when Grace gets in the shower and is talking of living in Schenectedy because it might be a more real life. Granted, when you're surrounded by mountains of money, and have only surreal rich acquaintances, you become isolated.  I don't know if that was totally Jonathon, or just Grace's life. 

And Jonathon, as a cancer doctor, would have money in his own right. Not billions, but he would still have made decent money. 

I don't know.  I've spent far too much energy on this show.  LOL. I don't think they developed any of the characters very well for the story they wanted to tell. 

Edited November 30, 2020 by cardigirl

[heatherchandler]

10 hours ago, qtpye said:

 

It almost felt like an inside joke. The woman has the same face when she finds out her husband is a murderer as I do when I lose a sock in the laundry.

 

 

How about the weird smile she has on her face at the end?  Like a happy, blissful smile.  Her husband almost jumped off a bridge and nearly killed her son in a car accident but yeah she's REALLY HAPPY. (???????)  Even if she was happy to get her son off the bridge, her life is... not great.

 

8 hours ago, Trillian said:

 

The way we taught In law school to deal with this scenario is that the lawyer who has the weapon hires a lawyer herself and gives the weapon to the second lawyer who then turns it over to the police, saying only “my client who will remain nameless gave this to me”. If the original lawyer said that to the police, it would be obvious who the client was, so the second lawyer acts as a buffer to try to preserve confidentiality and to salvage some of the defence. 

 

Would the 2nd lawyer ever be forced to give up who the client is?  

 

This show was really awful.  Yes @Ashforth It is absolutely a Nicole Kidman vanity project, where she was able to prance around in fancy outfits and show off her "range" (HAHAHA)  but it would have behooved her to have found a good story, with a coherent script.

Edited November 30, 2020 by heatherchandler

[Razzberry]

I think the bridge drama was just desperate narcissistic manipulation by Jonathan, like OJ with the loaded gun low-speed chase.  I started to seriously suspect him when he insisted on Grace bringing Henry to jail for the poor Jonathan pity party.

[Bluesky]

13 hours ago, aghst said:

An OJ chase scene?  Except instead of copters showing a live video feed, Grace herself is on the copter joining in the chase so they can have that preposterous bridge scene.

So they never had much more story than the obvious killer, though if Jonathan is a sociopath, he’s pretty functioning one, ending up with a very prestigious career and fooling his wife of at least over a decade.  And the wife is a trained psychiatrist who obviously didn’t have reason to believe that the father of their son could murder so brutally.

The thing is, it’s not credible that he would behave in a way to spook his own mother yet there were were no other episodes of him getting out of control since his childhood to late middle age or maybe senior pat of his life when he bludgeons Elena?  

Either Grace is a bad psychiatrist or has been in denial for years.

 

Most sociopaths function very well in society.  Grace was a psychologist not a psychiatrist.  She didn’t go to medical school.   But Jonathan’s colleague saw right through Jonathan.  Jonathan healing patients was all about Jonathan being a god and being worshipped.

[Razzberry]

I've seen many cases of high functioning sociopaths that go undetected for years until something exposes them.  Even then, families will often refuse to believe the evidence.  Michael Peterson, for example, killed both mothers of his adopted daughters yet they still stand by him.

 

[LoveLeigh]

1 hour ago, Penman61 said:

Individual examples of stereotypical tropes can almost always be justified on individual grounds. The problem becomes clearer when you notice a pattern of depiction (e.g., minority women are hyper-sexualized, underwritten, and often brutally overkilled on screen by white men) across multiple works in the culture. This individual show's propagating this widespread stereotype is just one example of many, many shows doing so.

I disagree. White men brutally kill white women and their own white wives more on screen. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/horror-film-deaths_n_4178359

White women kill white men on screen too: Basic Instinct. In Silence of the Lambs, Clarice was menaced by Hannibal. In Seven, Gwyneth Paltrow was beheaded.  What about Janet Leigh in Psycho? Rear Window. Gone Girl. Ted Bundy? Son of Sam? Jack the Ripper? Why was Kim Basinger hyper sexualized in LA Confidential? The Black Dahlia? Drew Barrymore in Scream. All white victims. Check film history. 

[carrps]

14 hours ago, aghst said:

So they never had much more story than the obvious killer, though if Jonathan is a sociopath, he’s pretty functioning one, ending up with a very prestigious career and fooling his wife of at least over a decade.  And the wife is a trained psychiatrist who obviously didn’t have reason to believe that the father of their son could murder so brutally.

The thing is, it’s not credible that he would behave in a way to spook his own mother yet there were were no other episodes of him getting out of control since his childhood to late middle age or maybe senior pat of his life when he bludgeons Elena?  

This is another reason why having older actors contributes to the unreality of the whole. They would have had to have been together for such a long time for her (a supposedly Harvard-trained whatever-she-is psychologist? therapist?) to have never noticed anything? But within a month or two, out comes Jonathan's Mr. Hyde chewing all the scenery. I could see if it she were some under-educated, unsophisticated person, maybe, but her father says he knew all along, but no one else did? It just seems anything this show wanted to have its cake and eat it too.

 

13 hours ago, RealReality said:

I couldn't find my remote, but did anyone explain why Henry was riffling through an outdoor fireplace as soon as he got to the beachhouse?  Seems like a good place to encounter an angry raccoon family.  

Someone beat me to it, but he was throwing or batting a ball around, and it went into the fireplace. He was looking for the ball.

 

13 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

Yep, it's Nicole singing over the opening title sequence.

I figured. She's not a good singer.

13 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

 

6 minutes ago, DakotaLavender said:

Why was Kim Basinger hyper sexualized in LA Confidential? 

She was a prostitute?

[Penman61]

2 minutes ago, DakotaLavender said:

I disagree. White men brutally kill white women and their own white wives more on screen. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/horror-film-deaths_n_4178359

White women kill white men on screen too: Basic Instinct. In Silence of the Lambs, Clarice was menaced by Hannibal. In Seven, Gwyneth Paltrow was beheaded.  What about Janet Leigh in Psycho? Rear Window. Gone Girl. Ted Bundy? Son of Sam? Jack the Ripper? Why was Kim Basinger hyper sexualized in LA Confidential? The Black Dahlia? Drew Barrymore in Scream. All white victims. Check film history. 

We're not disagreeing, are we? Both stereotypical depictions--white women in peril, women of color in peril--happen, reflecting the crosscurrents of misogyny and racism in our culture at large.

But the original poster was referring to the trope of a woman of color depicted as a hypersexualized and overkilled victim in this show, and that's what I was elaborating on. 🙂

[AryasMum]

6 hours ago, kay1864 said:

Grace: Oh, you’re running a cycle. I have a dirty glass I need to add.

Henry: No no no no no no

Henry:  There’s not enough room with the hammer and dad’s bloody shirt.
 

 They’re very self-sufficient in that family. Jonathan even applied Spray ‘N Wash!

[carrps]

I forgot to add that every time I say the name of the show out loud, I feel like I'm saying andouille, and I want some Cajun food.

[atlantaloves]

DAMN THAT LANDED WITH A HUGE BOTOX AND FILLER THUD DIDN'T IT? I HATED IT. 

[nara]

4 minutes ago, AryasMum said:

Henry:  There’s not enough room with the hammer and dad’s bloody shirt.
 

 They’re very self-sufficient in that family. Jonathan even applied Spray ‘N Wash!

Henry made his own breakfasts too. I think the at although they are well off, they are only living the lifestyle they have due to the largess of Franklin. I think it’s realistic that they can and do run the appliances themselves. These people are not like the grandparents from Gilmore girls who had never made a pizza before...

[aghst]

41 minutes ago, Bluesky said:

Most sociopaths function very well in society.  Grace was a psychologist not a psychiatrist.  She didn’t go to medical school.   But Jonathan’s colleague saw right through Jonathan.  Jonathan healing patients was all about Jonathan being a god and being worshipped.

But do they hide their sociopathic tendencies for decades?

Maybe the doctors saw the switch being flipped and then flipped back.

We saw how quickly he turned on Elena and then on Henry.  But can he suppress it for years from Grace?

In any event, regardless of her credentialing, Grace made a very good living being able to see through people.

How did she not see Jonathan for what he is?  Are we suppose to believe she didn't realize what Jonathan was until she spoke to his mother and then saw the hammer?

 

 

[AryasMum]

26 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

I've seen many cases of high functioning sociopaths that go undetected for years until something exposes them.  Even then, families will often refuse to believe the evidence.  Michael Peterson, for example, killed both mothers of his adopted daughters yet they still stand by him.

 

But a rogue owl flew in and killed Kathleen on the stairs!  Lol. 
 

That last name has been a little deadly - Drew Peterson killed two of his wives, Scott Peterson killed his 8 1/2 months pregnant wife, and then there’s Michael. 
 

 

[JaneDigby]

I didn't view this is as much as a whodunit as a when-will-Grace-come-to-her-senses story. Jonathan's sketchy self was always my prime suspect. That's probably why my questions about the ending are more logistical. As in, what kind of crappy police chase was that. We all know you put the police cars ahead of the suspect car, not just behind it. Also, when did Jonathan and Henry cross the Hudson?  Why did Jonathan pick that bridge? Seriously, if you want to be assured of death upon impact why would you jump into a literal creek? The Hudson River has many historic bridges suitable for one's big jump so that one is just all sorts of dumb. 

There's been a bit of chatter here about the relative expressiveness of Nicole Kidman's face. No doubt NK has had work done and bully for her. It's her face and she's in a profession that's notoriously unforgiving when it comes to female aging. I don't remember pre-Botox Nicole being an especially facially expressive actress. She's more of the Grace Kelly "what am I really thinking" variety. Nicole did fine, imo, facially emoting in the big scenes. It's not like I need her to be Jim Carrey. The decision to show Grace inscrutably thinking is on the director and writer as far as I'm concerned.

Other thoughts:

• Miguel can talk! 
• Hugh Grant delivered the creepy this episode
• Donald Sutherland is an international treasure
• I didn't need more Elena in the story but the last episode left me wanting to know more about how she ticked. What was the end game in her mind?
• David E. Kelly should have written much better courtroom scenes. He's had enough practice.

[Razzberry]

17 minutes ago, JaneDigby said:

There's been a bit of chatter here about the relative expressiveness of Nicole Kidman's face. No doubt NK has had work done and bully for her. It's her face and she's in a profession that's notoriously unforgiving when it comes to female aging. I don't remember pre-Botox Nicole being an especially facially expressive actress. She's more of the Grace Kelly "what am I really thinking" variety. Nicole did fine, imo, facially emoting in the big scenes. It's not like I need her to be Jim Carrey. The decision to show Grace inscrutably thinking is on the director and writer as far as I'm concerned.

Any facial work she's had done is pretty good, I thought.  So I started wondering about earlier films I may have missed where she was much more expressive and couldn't come up with any.   Maybe 'The Paperboy' when she gives John Cusack a virtual blowjob from across the room?  I'll have to watch that again to be sure.  😜

Edited November 30, 2020 by Razzberry

[Bluesky]

15 hours ago, ReviewX said:

You are correct, it is a total misuse of that particular hearsay exception. You would think they'd have a lawyer consultant look over the script.

 

Since David Kelley’s an attorney I guess they didn’t care. 

[RedDelicious]

14 hours ago, Vella said:

Quite frankly, the only thing that genuinely bothered me was that a female character of color, the victim, was repeatedly shown on screen being beaten to death throughout the series.

The actress in real life is white, of western European heritage. She's Italian. On the show she was married to a man of Hispanic heritage thus the last name Alvez and she lived in an apartment in East Harlem/Spanish Harlem. Calling her of color is an assumption based on her married name and the neighborhood in which she lives. In the story she's the other woman, and her murder is the center of the plot. The manner of her death (11 blows with the hammer, continuing after she was already dead) is to make us guess what kind of person could do that, which character did it, and why.

15 hours ago, kay1864 said:

1. Cops can’t drive faster than an SUV?

2. Cops can’t outrun Nicole Kidman on a bridge?

Although Jonathan's first instinct was to drive faster when he saw the police pursuing him (which was terrifying) I think they did it that way because Henry was in the car and they were trying to avoid a high-speed accident.

I live in a town with a high elevation bridge over a very fast moving river. We have jumpers with some degree of frequency - if they go they rarely survive which is terribly sad. The police hold back until they can get a negotiator there. If the police approach the jumper before establishing communication, the jumper will a) jump and b) potentially take the responding officer down with them. I'm surprised they didn't Taser Grace because what she did was really stupid. I thought for sure Jonathan was going to jump and take Henry with him as revenge on Grace.

[tennisgurl]

Well we certainly know one thing for sure...Grace probably wont be getting a bump in clients after this, the shrink who didn't notice her husband was a sociopath. 

This miniseries was sort of weird in that it turned to be one of those "its not about the mystery" sorts of mysteries in retrospect. It turns out that the mystery itself was pretty simple, it was more about figuring out who Jonathan really was and if/when Grace would finally realize what was going on, and how this affected her family. Which makes this less of a mystery and more of a character piece, and as a character piece I think it was pulled off pretty well. The mystery and the courtroom antics were were more than a bit ridiculous, especially the courtroom stuff, but I ended up being pretty interested in watching how the story of the family played out. 

On the other hand, because they ended up focusing more on the family drama, there are still a decent amount of unanswered questions, my biggest one being I still have no clue what Elena's deal was. She acted so strange towards Grace, like she was being aggressive as well as flirty, and knowing that she was having an affair with her husband, and even that she had his baby, just raises more questions as to her thought process. We got some more glimpses of her this week, mostly from Miguel, who remembers his parents fighting, and Jonathan, who remembers her being super sexy but also really intense, and responded to Jonathan apparently breaking things off by going all "I will not be ignored!" and going after him with the hammer before he killed her, but all of that just raises further questions about her. We have no idea what her relationship with her son or her husband was really like, and we only see a bit of her relationship with Jonathan, I still have no idea what her end game was with Grace, or why she was so into Jonathan that she was still telling him he would never leave her when he bashed her head in and then attacked him with a mallet. Was she really into him, or was this just something she was doing for fun? There was something clearly off about her, but we still don't know what. 

So when did Grace decide to turn on Jonathan? I guess when he showed he was alright with throwing Henry under the bus to cover up his own crime?

I know that this was a Nicole Kidman vehicle, and I think she was really good (even with the limited facial movements, which at least worked for the character) but I was much more impressed by Hugh Grant, especially in retrospect. So much of his awkward crying and crocodile tears now don't look like Hugh's acting, its Jonathans acting, as he desperately tries to fake emotions. They also really take advantage of his Hugh Grant befuddled charm that that been his bread and butter, changing it from actual charm to superficial charm, something that he slips on to be likable and to easily hide his lack of real empathy and emotional range. I especially loved his expression when Grace was talking about her phone call with his mom, if looks could kill Grace would be a pile of smoldering ashes. 

[carrps]

3 minutes ago, RedDelicious said:

The actress in real life is white, of western European heritage. She's Italian. On the show she was married to a man of Hispanic heritage thus the last name Alvez and she lived in an apartment in East Harlem/Spanish Harlem.

Alves. And I don't think she was playing Italian in the show. Were we expected to know since the actress was Italian that she wasn't actually Puerto Rican or some other Latinx identity? The assumption the show gives us is that she's Latinx.

[RedDelicious]

Just now, carrps said:

Alves. And I don't think she was playing Italian in the show. Were we expected to know since the actress was Italian that she wasn't actually Puerto Rican or some other Latinx identity? The assumption the show gives us is that she's Latinx.

What I intended is in real life she is a white woman. We don't know what ethnicity she is supposed to be because the show doesn't tell us specifically. Assuming she is of color is based on her married name and where she lives. 

[DangerousMinds]

1 hour ago, aghst said:

But do they hide their sociopathic tendencies for decades?

Maybe the doctors saw the switch being flipped and then flipped back.

We saw how quickly he turned on Elena and then on Henry.  But can he suppress it for years from Grace?

In any event, regardless of her credentialing, Grace made a very good living being able to see through people.

How did she not see Jonathan for what he is?  Are we suppose to believe she didn't realize what Jonathan was until she spoke to his mother and then saw the hammer?

 

 

There are lots of people with sociopathic tendencies in our society. They say most CEOs have them, and it makes sense to me. Anyone who is comfortable making millions while paying much of their workforce minimum wage and knowing that many have to rely on welfare and food stamps a well, are sociopathic. Many are able to “hide” it most of their lives.

[carrps]

22 hours ago, RedDelicious said:

We don't know what ethnicity she is supposed to be because the show doesn't tell us specifically. Assuming she is of color is based on her married name and where she lives. 

Well, yeah, that was my point. Watching this show they're pushing us towards the expected reaction that she is Latinx. If they wanted us to assume something else why didn't they do some freaking character development to show it? So much time spent on Grace's glamour walkabouts, and so little spent on character development.

ETA: Her being Italian IRL has nothing to do with the show.

Edited December 1, 2020 by carrps
Added comment

[RedDelicious]

1 minute ago, carrps said:

Well, yeah, that was my point. Watching this show they're pushing us towards the expected reaction is that she is Latinx. If they wanted us to assume something else why didn't they do some freaking character development to show it? So much time spent on Grace's glamour walkabouts, and so little spent on character development.

But isn't assuming her ethnicity based on her name and location the very definition of stereotyping? I completely agree there was a lack of character development, but what I was getting at is I didn't see this as its always non-whites getting clipped. 

[carrps]

1 minute ago, RedDelicious said:

But isn't assuming her ethnicity based on her name and location the very definition of stereotyping? 

Yeah, but I think the show is what gave us this stereotype by not showing Elena as a full human being. We can only make assumptions. I've only known Elenas who were Latina, so with her being married to a Latino man, I made an assumption I was pushed into.

I do agree with you that there are plenty of white women getting killed IRL and in our "entertainment" shows.

[Maisiesmom]

Well, I thought it was pretty good. I thought Johnathan did it all along. He was a real dick thinking he could blame it on Henry. I think thats when Grace decided to fuck him over-she wasnt about to let her child get sent up for a crime he didnt do. I was hoping Johnathan would jump in the river. Better for him than going to prison. Hugh Grant really did bring the scary at the end there. I thought the 2 young men were very good actors and wish them good luck in the future. On a bit of a wishful note-I covet the purple coat Grace wore the day she testified, and would like for Franklin to adopt me-I'll be a good girl and not marry any nut jobs!  🙂

[carrps]

2 minutes ago, Maisiesmom said:

 I thought the 2 young men were very good actors and wish them good luck in the future. On a bit of a wishful note-I covet the purple coat Grace wore the day she testified, and would like for Franklin to adopt me-I'll be a good girl and not marry any nut jobs!  🙂

I thought the actor playing Miguel did a great job. I really liked his reactions when he discovered his mom, too. Very natural. Made me tear up watching him.

I was coveting that lavender dress, though it would not flatter my body type. At all. I would happily join you in the Franklin household!

[CarpeFelis]

14 hours ago, Razzberry said:

I was annoyed at the kid for hiding the hammer from his mother.  He'd seen the crime photos, yet he still wanted Dad around?  Donald Sutherland had him nailed.

What really bugs me is that he knew all along that Jonathan did it and he even tried to cover for him by running the hammer through the dishwasher twice, and yet he was pushing so hard all along for his parents to stay together! That would have made much more sense if he’d truly believed Jonathan was innocent.
And as others have pointed out, the hammer is a great big plot hole. Sure, Grace finding it made for a dramatic cliffhanger. But are we really supposed to believe Jonathan was so stupid as to hide it on the premises of a family property—much less a family property where HE WAS HIDING OUT? (Not to mention, picking that as a place to hide was also beyond stupid. Like the cops would never look at any and all family properties he could have gone to?) He could have stopped many other places along the way, with no known connections to him, and gotten rid of it. It really stretches credibility to have someone who made it through medical school and residency be this profoundly stupid.

[JaneDigby]

15 hours ago, Vella said:

Quite frankly, the only thing that genuinely bothered me was that a female character of color, the victim, was repeatedly shown on screen being beaten to death throughout the series.  Apparently, the audience needed to see her pleading, needed to see the brutal first blow, needed to see the graphic attack in its entirety.  I find it more and more disturbing when showrunners feel the pathological need to SHOW the violence.

If they'd shown Elena naked on every episode I'd be calling BS on the show. That would have been 100% unnecessary. Showing Elena being beaten seemed more like the writers reminding viewers that this was a particularly vicious, brutual crime. This wasn't an accident or a crime of passion, the murder made a choice. 

[Kirsty]

Enormous rooms in Grace's father's home. I was distracted by the height of the ceiling.

But, maaan, I was so attached to my "Sylvia did it" theory that I'm still waiting for the twist! 😆 The trial isn't over, Sylvia! You can still confess!

This is a much more realistic explanation for the murder. But for a slightly trashy murder show, I found the Jonathan reveal to be a bit of an anti-climax. One thing that made it trashy was the way the murder victim was presented. We never saw her having a normal conversation. We saw her naked, stripping, fucking, begging, crying and being weird with Grace. And I never wanted to see the image of her bludgeoned head. Even in this episode, the show kept trying to titillate us with shots of Elena alive and repulse us with shots of her dead body.

Quote

They also really take advantage of his Hugh Grant befuddled charm that that been his bread and butter, changing it from actual charm to superficial charm, something that he slips on to be likable and to easily hide his lack of real empathy and emotional range.

Well said. In retrospect it was clever casting. I like the way Jonathan kept using the old bumbling charm shtick throughout the series. Last week it worked on his wife. The week before it worked on Fernando. But this week, particularly with his son, his charm seemed more and more threadbare and desperate, until in the car at the end he was swinging wildly between charm and rage, like a broken robot or a computer when its system is crashing.

Anyway, my main takeaways from this episode are: Sculpting hammers are dishwasher-safe. And you can join a police chase in New York if you own a chopper. I've learned a lot. 😉

Edited November 30, 2020 by Kirsty

[Trillian]

2 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

Would the 2nd lawyer ever be forced to give up who the client is?  

Privilege extends to the client’s name and the fact of the retainer so, no. As in all legal rules, there are exceptions but the exceptions to this one are very - very very - rare. 

[qtpye]

7 hours ago, cardigirl said:

But the audience has no knowledge of that.  Give us flashbacks.  All they showed us was Jonathon being pretty charming with a young cancer patient.  That didn't look manipulative to me.  If she was ignoring signs of him being a "MONSTER" than show us past aggressions, like that time he lost control and threw a bowl at you or that time you wanted to go to Florida for vacation but he overruled and said lets to go Vegas. or some such.  The show gave us NOTHING to show us his past behaviour with his family that should have clued her in. She meets this woman at a committee meeting, and when she tells her husband about it, he joins in with joking and surmising things about the woman, and that's when the audience begins to see how he was deceiving her because later, we find out he knew this woman, and all along had been involved with her. 

But there were no accusations from Grace about "Why do you always do this to me?" or "Why do you leave me in the dark so much?"  I really think this story was so simple-minded in that it gave us a thin line of reasoning.  Everything was fine until it wasn't.  But it 17 years together, a sociopath is going to exhibit some behaviour that is going to be concerning, and they should have flashed back to it.  They didn't.  Grace didn't share that with the audience.  

And I don't remember Jonathon's mother ever saying that they surrounded him with support and love, waiting for him to show grief or remorse. I think that was added for drama's sake at trial, but was not true.

Ugh, this show. 

 

4 hours ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

I'm not going to try and argue that this is a well-written show, because it absolutely was not but I do think they tried to show us that Jonathan had whatever personality disorder he has. In the first or second episode, there was a conversation between Grace and Jonathan about how they didn't have any friends. Whether that was because Jonathan was trying to isolate her or because he always ended up doing something that made it so all of their friends cut them off, we don't know, but that's a sign that something was wrong. In that conversation, Johnathan brushed it off in his bumbling English patter rather than taking Grace seriously.

I think Johnathan used his job in order to excuse a lot of his behavior. From Grace's POV, he was always running off to a patient so that made it OK in her eyes but we learned that he frequently lied to her about it. He also made up a fake dead dog story about his real dead sister so that he'd have a reason to not to get a dog. Those lies are something manipulative people use in order to keep normal, empathy feeling people in line. There's no reason from their POV that someone would make something like that up so they of course believe it. You feel like a fool for having trusted them in hindsight but how were you to know, really?

Everyone around Grace was telling her what Johnathan was really like. There was the doctor at the hospital, her father and his mother. If everyone around you is telling you that someone is not a good person, they are probably not a good person. Also, I do remember from the phone call that Johnathan's mother said they surrounded Johnathan with family after the accident.

Ultimately, you are right that there should have been some flashbacks of problematic moments between Johnathan and Grace to really flesh out their relationship. I think this show made an error in trying to make it more of a "whodunnit" than a psychological thriller.

 

2 hours ago, cardigirl said:

They weren't telling her what he was like until his deception came to light, though.  At the fundraiser when he said he had to leave, one mother made mention of his sense of humor, his being a pediatric cancer doctor, and his charm and how wonderful he was. People were looking her in the eye and him too! No one was saying BOO to her, until after he disappeared. It was when she was trying to decide if she believed whether or not he was innocent that people started to give her information. No other doctor said anything? Had she never gone to his practice before? 

So for 17 years, her father hadn't liked him, but we weren't shown good ol' dad begging her to leave Jonathon in earlier times? 

For 17 years, she hasn't spoken to his family and she's not curious about it? 

She seemed to have friends from the school, but perhaps they were more acquaintances.  I know the conversation you are speaking of, when Grace gets in the shower and is talking of living in Schenectedy because it might be a more real life. Granted, when you're surrounded by mountains of money, and have only surreal rich acquaintances, you become isolated.  I don't know if that was totally Jonathon, or just Grace's life. 

And Jonathon, as a cancer doctor, would have money in his own right. Not billions, but he would still have made decent money. 

I don't know.  I've spent far too much energy on this show.  LOL. I don't think they developed any of the characters very well for the story they wanted to tell. 

 

2 hours ago, Razzberry said:

I've seen many cases of high functioning sociopaths that go undetected for years until something exposes them.  Even then, families will often refuse to believe the evidence.  Michael Peterson, for example, killed both mothers of his adopted daughters yet they still stand by him.

 

My theory is that Jonathan never abused Grace, because he was scared of her father and her rich/powerful family. He had affairs to release that dark energy on other women.

58 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Well we certainly know one thing for sure...Grace probably wont be getting a bump in clients after this, the shrink who didn't notice her husband was a sociopath. 

This miniseries was sort of weird in that it turned to be one of those "its not about the mystery" sorts of mysteries in retrospect. It turns out that the mystery itself was pretty simple, it was more about figuring out who Jonathan really was and if/when Grace would finally realize what was going on, and how this affected her family. Which makes this less of a mystery and more of a character piece, and as a character piece I think it was pulled off pretty well. The mystery and the courtroom antics were were more than a bit ridiculous, especially the courtroom stuff, but I ended up being pretty interested in watching how the story of the family played out. 

On the other hand, because they ended up focusing more on the family drama, there are still a decent amount of unanswered questions, my biggest one being I still have no clue what Elena's deal was. She acted so strange towards Grace, like she was being aggressive as well as flirty, and knowing that she was having an affair with her husband, and even that she had his baby, just raises more questions as to her thought process. We got some more glimpses of her this week, mostly from Miguel, who remembers his parents fighting, and Jonathan, who remembers her being super sexy but also really intense, and responded to Jonathan apparently breaking things off by going all "I will not be ignored!" and going after him with the hammer before he killed her, but all of that just raises further questions about her. We have no idea what her relationship with her son or her husband was really like, and we only see a bit of her relationship with Jonathan, I still have no idea what her end game was with Grace, or why she was so into Jonathan that she was still telling him he would never leave her when he bashed her head in and then attacked him with a mallet. Was she really into him, or was this just something she was doing for fun? There was something clearly off about her, but we still don't know what. 

So when did Grace decide to turn on Jonathan? I guess when he showed he was alright with throwing Henry under the bus to cover up his own crime?

I know that this was a Nicole Kidman vehicle, and I think she was really good (even with the limited facial movements, which at least worked for the character) but I was much more impressed by Hugh Grant, especially in retrospect. So much of his awkward crying and crocodile tears now don't look like Hugh's acting, its Jonathans acting, as he desperately tries to fake emotions. They also really take advantage of his Hugh Grant befuddled charm that that been his bread and butter, changing it from actual charm to superficial charm, something that he slips on to be likable and to easily hide his lack of real empathy and emotional range. I especially loved his expression when Grace was talking about her phone call with his mom, if looks could kill Grace would be a pile of smoldering ashes. 

This actually showcased Hugh much better than Nicole.

33 minutes ago, carrps said:

I thought the actor playing Miguel did a great job. I really liked his reactions when he discovered his mom, too. Very natural. Made me tear up watching him.

I was coveting that lavender dress, though it would not flatter my body type. At all. I would happily join you in the Franklin household!

After hearing him speak, I wish we could of heard more from him. The child actor is terrific. Of course that expensive lavender dress was immediately covered with an expensive matching coat

28 minutes ago, CarpeFelis said:

What really bugs me is that he knew all along that Jonathan did it and he even tried to cover for him by running the hammer through the dishwasher twice, and yet he was pushing so hard all along for his parents to stay together! That would have made much more sense if he’d truly believed Jonathan was innocent.
And as others have pointed out, the hammer is a great big plot hole. Sure, Grace finding it made for a dramatic cliffhanger. But are we really supposed to believe Jonathan was so stupid as to hide it on the premises of a family property—much less a family property where HE WAS HIDING OUT? (Not to mention, picking that as a place to hide was also beyond stupid. Like the cops would never look at any and all family properties he could have gone to?) He could have stopped many other places along the way, with no known connections to him, and gotten rid of it. It really stretches credibility to have someone who made it through medical school and residency be this profoundly stupid.

The hammer was so stupid. Why would no on destroy it?  Why hide it in the violin case?

Nicole's kid is not the brightest, has a high degree of privilege , and adores his father. Sadly, I can believe in his need of keeping the adored father in his life, that he gladly sacrificed justice for the victim (who in his mind was a "bad woman"). Children of narcissists are pretty fucked up.

However, why the Hell you would get in the car with your murderer father who tried to frame YOU FOR THE MURDER, on the day he is about to get sentenced is beyond me.

[Melina22]

16 hours ago, aghst said:

The thing is, it’s not credible that he would behave in a way to spook his own mother yet there were were no other episodes of him getting out of control since his childhood to late middle age or maybe senior pat of his life when he bludgeons Elena?  

Agreed. Plus I was disappointed that in the end, the person we thought did it, actually did it. What a waste of so many red herrings. 

I spent the whole court scene staring at my feet. I was trying not to see that horrible murder scene photo they kept flashing to. Ick. I'm still traumatized from last week. 

I really couldn't understand all the knowing looks between the prosecutor and Grace's friend. Or anything that happened when Grace was on the stand until it was all over. Or Haley's comment about the hammer. Or why the hammer was in the fireplace. Or why Nicole and her father were allowed to helicopter willy-nilly around NYC during a road chase and then land on a bridge. 

Yes, it was disappointing. All that time spent waiting for the big twist that never came. I suppose that was the twist. Sigh. 

I did really like the two young actors who played the boys. They were exceptional. 

Edited November 30, 2020 by Melina22

[buttersister]

Having seen Hugh Grant interviewed about this show, he seemed slightly embarrassed by the whole thing. I was torn between that reaction being he'd seen the final edit and that "gosh, I'm nothing special" thing he does. Since it's Hugh, I'll go with: This is how I am especially self-deprecating and charming. [Where's the "especially charming" emoji?]

The car chase was very reminiscent of the Bronco on the freeway. Somehow narcissistic sociopaths never follow through with their suicidal threats, though.  

Donald Sutherland, still the highlight.

 

[Ms Blue Jay]

19 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I like Lily Rabe and think she is talented, but I did feel as though she was kind of discount Laura Dern here. 

She wasn't even that.  She was Basil Exposition from Austin Powers.  That was her only purpose.

Quote

Basil is a parody of the M character in the James Bond franchise. Moreover, since, in storytelling, "exposition" is the revealing of background information required to understand the current action, Basil's surname is a joke on his principal function in the films: to provide Austin and the audience with the necessary exposition.

Hugh Grant is a known great interview, but I wish he would say much less when interviewing.  Early on he said he only agreed to take this role after he found out what Jonathan's ending was.  That kind of spells out that Jonathan gets to have the most dramatic part in the ending.  My own fault for listening to his interviews about a mystery, sigh.

Edited November 30, 2020 by Ms Blue Jay

[nara]

The only reason to keep the murder weapon handy is to try to use it to frame someone. I wish Jonathan had done that. I was hoping that he had put it in Henry’s case.

[Ms Blue Jay]

2 hours ago, Razzberry said:

Any facial work she's had done is pretty good, I thought.  So I started wondering about earlier films I may have missed where she was much more expressive and couldn't come up with any.   Maybe 'The Paperboy' when she gives John Cusack a virtual blowjob from across the room?  I'll have to watch that again to be sure.  😜

"The Others" in 2001 she looks absolutely STUNNING.  I wish she'd stopped the work after that one.  She is. fucking. GORGEOUS in that one.  I think "Moulin Rouge" is the same time.  

[SourK]

8 hours ago, dmc said:

Not always.  I think their portrayal of Jonathan is accurate.  Accurate enough, that I double majored in Criminology and knew.  I agree some elements of the story are poor.  But it is incredibly accurate that Grace could be a psychiatrist and miss it. A lot of people want to believe they would see signs but it’s not true.  A lot of con artist are also sociopaths it’s why they are usually successful at it 

I buy that he had Narcissistic Personality Disorder. I think they portrayed that well -- in virtually every scene he's in, he's only focused on himself and on getting what he wants or needs, with no consideration for how it affects anyone else. Even at the end, when he decides to kill himself, he does it in the way that's going to be maximally traumatizing for his son, and tries to coax his son into comforting him while he does it.

I'm not 100% on him being a sociopath, and I kind of wish the show wasn't framing it as if proving Jonathan's mental health diagnosis is the same thing as proving that he killed someone. I actually think it's more interesting if he just has NPD -- if he committed an impulsive murder and then believed he should be able to get away with it, without needing to be a sociopath.

But I don't think the show is really interested in those distinctions.

1 hour ago, CarpeFelis said:

What really bugs me is that he knew all along that Jonathan did it and he even tried to cover for him by running the hammer through the dishwasher twice, and yet he was pushing so hard all along for his parents to stay together! That would have made much more sense if he’d truly believed Jonathan was innocent.

I also thought that was weird, given the overall tone of the story. In real life, there are people who have a spouse or parent who's gone to prison for murder, and that's a really complex thing to deal with. But this show is a thriller, and it's made very clear to us that whoever did this is a monster, so, if everyone believes Jonathan did it... why do they want to keep living with him?

[heatherchandler]

9 hours ago, Norma Desmond said:

 

 True. I think the series didn't explore it clearly - she's an expert on those things but didn't see it at all with the man she was married for almost 20 years, hence the book's title "You should have known". It was never a murder mystery per se, though it's what DEK *tried* to accomplish here.

 

The only thing worse than this show is the book it is "based on."  Or, actually maybe the book is worse.  I have never been so disappointed by BOTH a book and show.  

 

3 hours ago, carrps said:

 

I figured. She's not a good singer.

 

She is REALLY not a good singer, she is horrible.  But maybe because her husband is a singer, she thinks she can sing?

 

2 hours ago, Razzberry said:

Any facial work she's had done is pretty good, I thought.  So I started wondering about earlier films I may have missed where she was much more expressive and couldn't come up with any.   Maybe 'The Paperboy' when she gives John Cusack a virtual blowjob from across the room?  I'll have to watch that again to be sure.  😜

I think the work she has had done makes her look freakish and honestly grotesque.

I know that it is fashionable for certain women (Real Housewives types) to get obvious plastic surgery, as a way to show off that they can afford to get plastic surgery but I don't think NK is trying to do that.  I think that she thinks she looks youthful.  To me, her face looks like a balloon about to burst.

I noticed in one scene she was opening and closing her mouth strangely, and it reminded me of when I have a cold and can't breathe through my nose.  So, if I am speaking with someone, I have to be sure to breathe through my mouth but my mouth is dry so it is awkward and can look weird, so I have to focus on when I am breathing.  I imagine NK is focused on opening and closing her mouth without looking freakish.

[qtpye]

54 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

"The Others" in 2001 she looks absolutely STUNNING.  I wish she'd stopped the work after that one.  She is. fucking. GORGEOUS in that one.  I think "Moulin Rouge" is the same time.  

She really was quite good in that movie.

1 hour ago, Kirsty said:

Enormous rooms in Grace's father's home. I was distracted by the height of the ceiling.

But, maaan, I was so attached to my "Sylvia did it" theory that I'm still waiting for the twist! 😆 The trial isn't over, Sylvia! You can still confess!

This is a much more realistic explanation for the murder. But for a slightly trashy murder show, I found the Jonathan reveal to be a bit of an anti-climax. One thing that made it trashy was the way the murder victim was presented. We never saw her having a normal conversation. We saw her naked, stripping, fucking, begging, crying and being weird with Grace. And I never wanted to see the image of her bludgeoned head. Even in this episode, the show kept trying to titillate us with shots of Elena alive and repulse us with shots of her dead body.

Well said. In retrospect it was clever casting. I like the way Jonathan kept using the old bumbling charm shtick throughout the series. Last week it worked on his wife. The week before it worked on Fernando. But this week, particularly with his son, the charm seemed more and more threadbare and desperate, until in the car at the end he was swinging wildly between charm and rage, like a broken robot or a computer when its system is crashing.

Anyway, my main takeaways from this episode are: sculpting hammers are dishwasher-safe; and you can join a police chase in New York if you own a chopper. I've learned a lot. 😉

I remember how we saw the murder from Jonathan's point of view and how he is a freaking liar that lies. I feel that he justifies his actions by misrepresenting what is going on, even in his own mind.

He had Elena try to attack him with the hammer first. This might not have happened in real life. I also did not get what the Hell Elena was talking about regarding Grace. It seemed like she was impressed with Grace and was suggesting some sort of sister wife situation where they both would be with Jonathan and raising their kids together happily as "brothers". I do not understand why she would suggest something like that.

[iMonrey]

Quote

Well we certainly know one thing for sure...Grace probably wont be getting a bump in clients after this, the shrink who didn't notice her husband was a sociopath. 

Yes I think it's safe to say that her career as a psychologist is over, unless she moves to another country. 

Quote

This miniseries was sort of weird in that it turned to be one of those "its not about the mystery" sorts of mysteries in retrospect

That's sort of excusing it though isn't it? It was definitely constructed as a whodunnit from start to finish. That the ending turned out to be the most obvious suspect doesn't mean it wasn't meant to be a whodunnit. It kept you guessing through the whole thing. It just means it didn't have a very satisfying ending. Maybe if they hadn't dangled the possibility of Grace, or Henry, or Elena's husband, or possibly Sylvia you could say "well it was never meant to be a mystery." Clearly it tried to be that.

[Enigma X]

Whether this was supposed to be a whodunit or psychological case study, it was very poorly written to me.

[qtpye]

This video explains some things like what happened to the Jonathan's baby girl after the trial.

Spoilers for the book...to the people who plan to read it after watching this series.

So, at the end Jonathan actually thought Grace was running to save him and that is why he did not jump off the bridge. I guess he really is THAT vain.

[stacyasp]

I love the way Donald Sutherland says monster!

[NeenerNeener]

21 hours ago, Jodithgrace said:

I still don't recall any of this from the book, 

The tv show completely departed from the book after episode 2, so it's not your memory. Jonathan didn't come back in the book, so there was no trial.

[Happytobehere]

21 hours ago, saoirse said:

Yeah, this is why I can't find the character good - she knew, and you could tell she knew he was guilty after the hammer was found. She found a way around it. But then she let Grace convince her that she should testify? What. The. Fuck. She totally screwed the pooch letting Grace on the stand, but she was also right that Jonathan blew it by not getting rid of the hammer.

The only reason I can think of for why he didn't is that he really didn't think that Franklin would send Grace and Henry up there to escape. He hid it before he could get rid of it, and then they showed up, and he had to rethink his plans.

Good lord, this show was pretty horrible, but I still watched it for six weeks in a row. I'm relieved that it's over, honestly.

The attorney knew Jonathan did it from the moment she met him. She tried to tell dimwit Grace as much.

[RealReality]

6 hours ago, AryasMum said:

Henry:  There’s not enough room with the hammer and dad’s bloody shirt.

 They’re very self-sufficient in that family. Jonathan even applied Spray ‘N Wash!

And why?  He is a terrible criminal.  You don't need that tuxedo, just burn it and get a new one.  Why risk dropping it off at a dry cleaner who will see the residual blood stains all over it?  

"I took it to the cleaners but I'm innocent" works just as well as "I stumbled into a mud puddle and im rich so I threw it away but I'm totally innocent"

Both are suspicious but only one leaves evidence. 

4 hours ago, qtpye said:

My theory is that Jonathan never abused Grace, because he was scared of her father and her rich/powerful family. He had affairs to release that dark energy on other women.

This actually showcased Hugh much better than Nicole.

After hearing him speak, I wish we could of heard more from him. The child actor is terrific. Of course that expensive lavender dress was immediately covered with an expensive matching coat

The hammer was so stupid. Why would no on destroy it?  Why hide it in the violin case?

Nicole's kid is not the brightest, has a high degree of privilege , and adores his father. Sadly, I can believe in his need of keeping the adored father in his life, that he gladly sacrificed justice for the victim (who in his mind was a "bad woman"). Children of narcissists are pretty fucked up.

However, why the Hell you would get in the car with your murderer father who tried to frame YOU FOR THE MURDER, on the day he is about to get sentenced is beyond me.

He promised pancakes.  

Or at least breakfast, and frankly I'd probably get in a car with a serial killer if they promised good pancakes.  

[carrps]

1 minute ago, RealReality said:

He promised pancakes.  

Or at least breakfast, and frankly I'd probably get in a car with a serial killer if they promised good pancakes.  

And fried clams!

[RealReality]

Just now, carrps said:

And fried clams!

BIG OL' fried clams at that!  

It takes a true sociopath to lie about pancakes and fried clams.  MONSTER!!

[DangerousMinds]

10 minutes ago, Happytobehere said:

The attorney knew Jonathan did it from the moment she met him. She tried to tell dimwit Grace as much.

Based on the DNA evidence, it had to be either Jonathan or Mr. Alves, so yeah she knew.