S05.E14: The One Where We're Trapped on TV

[scarynikki12]

Quote

After Charlie does the one thing that goes against her nature when it comes to her sisters, she tries to protect the Legends by scattering them in different television shows.

 

 

[scarynikki12]

Damn The Fates get back together and plunge the world into 1984.

I know I’m a broken record but Tala is a treasure. That’s the only appropriate way to describe her. She can go from OG Zari to Zari 2.0 perfectly. It’s great. I wonder if we can convince the LOT producers to do an Orphan Black style episode so she can play a bunch of Zaris. 

Ultimate Buds, Highcastle Abbey, and Star Trip. The writers room must have been fun that day. 

Con as the proper butler torn up by his magic was fun. And willing to continue playing the role so Astra can be with her mother was quite a sacrifice. Love that tv Natalie got Astra to leave the show.

Ava makes more sense as the Spock than as a captain so of course she was both. She’s not good at being captain and that’s ok! Being the Spock is fine.

Caity was having a ball with her Shatner impersonation. And here’s to consistency! Sara doesn’t want to live a lie no matter how great it may be. She always wants the truth no matter how painful.

Mick as a Klingon was perfect.

I miss Ray.

A bunch of misfits trying to make a difference. Nailed it Z.

Still hate the Zari/Nate thing. Make it stop!

Clotho was very much a god tonight. Her actions and rationale were right in line with how they tend to think and operate. High five to the classics nerd(s) on the writing staff! 

[quarks]

Caity Lotz impersonating William Shatner was not something I knew I needed and yet here we are.

[Jediknight]

Astra got closure.  Constantine knew exactly what he was doing.  He gave her exactly what she wanted, but knew that her mother wouldn't want Astra to sacrifice herself.  He didn't betray her, he kept his promise, and she loves him for it.

Charlie had to know that the Legends would throw up their middle fingers to the Fates.  They've never been about destiny, they've been about changing it.

[Lantern7]

This might be the most Legends episode this season. Minimum, I reckon it’s the episode we needed.

For Spock’s sake, everyone on the Weaverider that wasn’t Sara or Ava had to wear shorts. And then Mick comes in as a Khan . . . beautiful. He loved that hair.

Charlie/Clotho trying to keep her friends safe . . . in the most Legends way possible. Really, what did she expect? Of course they’d break their respective fourth walls. They are that good! Also exasperating. Even Mona and Gary did a good job, and they had to work on the other side of the screen.

And now we have both Zaris. At this point, why not? Great tough for Zari to possess Zardashisn, and she went straight for the flannel. And a turn-of-the-century sitcom was too good a fit for Behrad and Nate.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Lantern7

[Nogoodnamesleft]

Okay the trade off of two captains for two Zari and a Behrad might be worth it.

I laughed when Lita's mom thought Mick was hot as Khan.

Loved Zari went right to the flats and flannel

[driver18]

I loved everything that this episode chose to be. Seriously. Every moment was perfect.

And the John/Zari shipper in me loved John's "That's what I'm thinking," when Behrad said, 'Where's my Zari?" during the Nate/Zari 1.0 moment.

[StaceyNotStacie]

I wasn’t sure if I would like this episode when I first saw the preview. I thought it would be quite campy. It was, but it was also very well done. Considering how dark the season has been, it was more lighthearted and fun. I’m not a big Constantine fan, but I liked him in this episode (and I liked his reaction to the return of OG Zari). Can’t wait for the finale next week. 

[Lady Calypso]

Leave it to LOT to make an episode not just fun with all sorts of meta references (as meta as they're allowed to be, anyway) but also with a whole lot of heart and character progression. 

The return of Mona! And I will say, this is how they should have used Mona right from the start. She was great and so was her team-up with Gary. I liked having her as the outside woman to the Legends. And Gary wasn't too bad either. I will say, his crazy hair suited him way more than his usual hairstyle.

Zari 1.0 is back! And so is Zari 2.0! I was wondering how they were going to solve that problem and if we were going to have Zari 1.0 and 2.0 swap with each other ever so often. But it looks like we could very well have two Zaris for next season! And I'm so game with that. The more Tala Ashe we have, the better. She kills it at both roles as well. And it also gets rid of the love triangle of Zari, Nate, and John that they were starting to build toward. I mean, it's still going to be weird with two Zaris, as one of them will DEFINITELY need some sort of nickname so that they both don't turn whenever someone calls their name, but it could work.

Still bleh toward Nate/Zari in general, so I'll likely just tune in to John/Zari. I love Zari 1.0, though. With Sara being relegated to Ava's girlfriend, Zari has become the true glue for the team. So hopefully she doesn't have as many romantic scenes with Nate as she did in season 4. 

And Behrad's back! Plus, it looks like they're leading toward Behrad/Astra. I mean, I'm sick of all the inter-work romances but I guess I get it. They can't find love elsewhere since they travel a lot...to different times....and different dimensions. And Behrad/Astra could work, as it does mean that Astra's here to stay. I like Astra a lot and am glad she got the closure that she needed. 

Sara/Ava in Star Trip was pretty funny. I did love Caity's William Shatner impersonation. And I feel bad for forgetting about Mick until he showed up near the end (although I did know that something felt missing).  Also, I get it, show. You REALLY want us to embrace the co-captain stuff with Ava. But...I mean, if this means we get Zari 1.0, Zari 2.0, Behrad, and Astra as members of the team...I'll allow it. As long as you STOP MENTIONING IT NEXT SEASON. 

I totally get Charlie/Clotho's reasoning for keeping the Legends there. She's in a very tough spot right now.

 

[ketose]

It's kind of SOP for a show to have a cheap filler episode before the finale, but this one dragged for me. It reminded me too much of the Spear of Destiny thing. Plus, I thought the Romans were all about orgies and overconsumption. Why have a world of mush and totalitarianism? They might as well have Vandal Savage run things.

[Oreo2234]

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Zari 1.0 is back! And so is Zari 2.0! I was wondering how they were going to solve that problem and if we were going to have Zari 1.0 and 2.0 swap with each other ever so often. But it looks like we could very well have two Zaris for next season! And I'm so game with that. The more Tala Ashe we have, the better. She kills it at both roles as well. And it also gets rid of the love triangle of Zari, Nate, and John that they were starting to build toward. I mean, it's still going to be weird with two Zaris, as one of them will DEFINITELY need some sort of nickname so that they both don't turn whenever someone calls their name, but it could work.

I feel like one of them will die or disappear and it will be incredibly sad. As much as I love both versions I would prefer it be Zari 2.0 that goes but I think she will be the one who stays. 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Oreo2234

[Florinaldo]

49 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

Mick as a Klingon was perfect.

He was a take-off on Khan, the augmented human, without the Ricardo Montalban accent, but with the same flowing hair from the movie incarnation.

I was amused by the male crew members wearing hot pants, much like the women characters had to wear to extra-short uncomfortable (and embarrassing) skirts in the original Star Trek.

Is the show going to try and have their cake and eat it too, not only bringing back all the Legends and peri-Legends who were killed or wiped out from the time line, but also then actually keeping them around and co-existing with the others?

An episode that is definitely worth a rewatch to catch all the allusions and digs (gentle or not) at the original shows being parodied.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Florinaldo

[statsgirl]

This was a really fun episode. A labour of love both with LoT and the original shows.

Caity Lotz and her William Shatner invitation is the MVP of the episode although many of the character did a good job. Nate was even tolerable as the Joey-clone.

The was so much to play with here: Sara and Ava mirroring the original slash ship (although Spock never said the intro, it was always the captain and I HATED that Ava got to do it here). The combination of 1984, Brave New World (TV is the new soma) and classic Communist Russian posters. Constantine as the very formal butler. The short pants of the Star Trip crew mimicking the micro-minis of the original female crew members. Constantine calling Zari and Behrad 'outsiders' was strange given that both Astra and her mother were POC.

I've never like Mona or Gary so much.

Marc Guggenheim is credited as the director. Well done!

The only two sour notes were again trying to make Ava happen as co-captain, and the return of Nate/Zari. It's not JM's fault but Ava is just not co-captain material and it makes Sara look like a love struck idiot for constantly pushing her into the position. If anyone has earned second in command (not co-captain), it's Zari, who keeps getting them out of trouble and who doesn't fall apart and need to be consoled every damn episode. 

And for Zari, I prefer the dance she was doing with Constantine to the frat boy stuff with Nate.

52 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

I miss Ray.

I kept missing him all episode, he would have had so much fun being a boy scout here, especially in Mr. Parker's neighbourhood. Why did they have to get rid of him so soon?

[scarynikki12]

2 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

If anyone has earned second in command (not co-captain), it's Zari, who keeps getting them out of trouble and who doesn't fall apart and need to be consoled every damn episode. 

Sing it.

[Lady Calypso]

Also, one thing I forgot about.

So, Behrad is now alive...BUT SARA IS STILL BLIND?

[tennisgurl]

Praise the Fates, that was an awesome episode! I was worried going in that it would be a bit too gimmicky/wacky, but this actually worked out really well, and probably was one of my favorites of the season. It was certainly wacky in the way that Legends so often is, but it also moved the plot and characters along quite a bit, and it had a lot of heart throughout, while also being funny and exciting.

I never knew I needed to see Caity do a Captain Kirk impression, but as it turns out, I totally did! Sara as Kirk is pretty perfect casting (not only did she do...the...dramatic pauses, but she also did the strut/lean thing) and Ava as her Spock makes sense. Ava is a solid enough number two, and that works way better than this whole co-captains thing that has never felt earned. I mean, last episode she spent the whole episode she was in charge freaking out about leadership and needing pep talks, and this week, Sara has to convince her not to just live in a TV show forever! No wonder Sara's new role on the show is basically "Ava's girlfriend" that woman is high freaking maintenance. 

Nate and Behrad on a Friends style comedy works super well actually, and I am so glad to see Behrad again, even if now the poor guy has two timelines in his head, where he dies in both of them. Speaking of, double your pleasure, double your fun, now we get two Zaris for the price of one! I've been wondering how they were going to handle both OG Zari and Zari 2.0, so now we have both here, having been separated by Charlie/Clotho! I dont know quite how that would work and how much that would break time, but I really hope that both Zaris can stay alive, even if only one can stay on the Waverider. I love both Zaris (and Tala is an absolute treasure) but I almost forgot how little I care about the Nate/Zari romance. God I just do not care, its like they have anti-chemistry, which is nuts because they had great chemistry, but their random last season romance was and continues to be deeply uninteresting. I did love John asking about Zari 2.0 in a rather concerned/annoyed tone while OG Zari was making out with Nate, their thing they have going on works WAY better for me! 

This was a good use of Mona, a sort of every woman comic relief character who can still help out in a crunch, that was what I hoped she would be last season before we got WAY too much of her and her shenanigans overstayed their welcome. I thought she and Gary worked well here, and I liked the bits we got of the conformity enforced world that the Fates created. I especially found the Fates just announcing that someone was fated to die and them just being like "well thats fate for ya" to be rather creepy. No wonder Dionysus was so against the Loom being put back together, this place is the anti-party! Also, I thought the long crazy hair actually looked kind of good on Gary, or am have I eaten too much mush? 

If Sara as Kirk is perfect casting, Mick as Khan is amazing casting! I also laughed at Litas mom saying how hot he was. The ladies got a type...

I really feel for Charlie/Clotho, she is in a really bad place and unless this is part of some bigger scheme, she really did think that this was the only way to save her friends, even if it hurts her terribly to do it and be a part of this regime that is totally against her own beliefs. I also really like how she tried to protect them, the whole "saving mortals by turning them into stuff or putting them in the stars or something" is very ancient Greek Gods-ish, so its cool to see some classical mythology leaking into the story. 

Astra gets some closure with her mom, and John makes peace with Astra, which was all really nice to see. Also, Astra and Behrad? 

[scarynikki12]

21 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I dont know quite how that would work and how much that would break time, but I really hope that both Zaris can stay alive, even if only one can stay on the Waverider.

Assuming that we get to play with both, I would bet that one Zari staying on the Waverider while the other goes on the relevant missions is how they get around the There Can Only Be One post-Crisis rule.

Even if we get to play with a dozen Zaris I still want none of them to be with Nate.

[Starfish35]

1 minute ago, scarynikki12 said:

Even if we get to play with a dozen Zaris I still want none of them to be with Nate.

👆

[thuganomics85]

While I've been really enjoying this season (especially compared to the disappointment of last season), this episode really was Legends of Tomorrow at its best for me.  Pure insanity every second, not stop hilarity, and awesomely ridiculous moments in every scene, but it still managed to have heart and actually develop the stories and characters in ways that a surprising amount of shows really can't seem to pull off, despite more budget and prestige.  I really can't believe how spot-on this show can be when it is firing on all cylinders.

Goes without saying that all of the "show within a show" bits (naturally all just propaganda by the Fates, heh) were great.  The stuff with the Friends-type sitcom was hilarious (and ironically topical since that show seems to have once again become popular due to the whole HBO Max thing), Constantine and Astra stuck inside a Dowton Abbey-type show was perfect (I swear, I think Matt Ryan was barely holding himself together at times), and the return of the Mister Rogers' like Cul-De-Sac.  And then there was Sara and Ava in a freaking Star Trek-type show!  Complete with Caity Lotz doing a Kirk/William Shatner imitation that truly needs to be seen to believe.  I really can't ask for anything more!

Well, except that not only did we a) get Behrad back (and he better stay that way!), but we now have b) BOTH Zaris!  Realistically, I have a feeling that either one of them is going to go away or sacrifice herself to save the day, or they're going to be merge into one Zari at the end.  But until then, I'm going to enjoy watching both of them interact with the gang.  Between that and Zari basically being the one who lead everyone to get their memories back, this was another standout episode for Tala Ashe, who is really showing herself to be one of the best performers out of D.C. line-up.

I definitely noticed that Mick wasn't around at first, but it was all worth it just to see him show up as "Star Trip's" version of Khan.  Complete with the long, wavy hair, low-cut shirt, and Dominic Purcell hamming it up in ways he usually doesn't get to.  Awesome!

This episode even made good use of Mona, and I enjoyed her scenes with Gary.  I'm not sure why they seemed to have such an issue with how they handled the character last season.

Curious to see what is in store for Charlie going forward.  I think she was sincere about protecting the Legends, but she had to have known that it could only be a temporary solution, and that the Legends wouldn't be down with spending the rest of their lives in a bliss, while the Fates continues to bend the rest of the world to their will.

Only real negatives I have are a) the return of Nate/Zari 1.0 which reminded me how boring they are as a couple (hilariously, Olivia Swann and Shayan Sobhian somehow made me more interested in a possible Astra/Behrad pairing already, compared to the "epic" Nate/Zari saga) and b) the show still trying to make the whole co-captain thing between Sara and Ava happen.  Sorry, as far as I'm concerned, the Legends only have one captain.

Excellent episode.  I hope the finale finishes things strongly.  And please, please don't off Behrad again!  And if it's not too much to ask, find a way to keep both Zaris around or; if Tala Ashe doesn't want to play two characters regularly; have a way to have one still be alive, but off-screen.  Fingers crossed!

 

[legaleagle53]

On second thought, I'm sorry I said anything. Carry on!

Edited May 30, 2020 by legaleagle53

[Florinaldo]

3 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

Which, as the original Trek actresses made clear in various interviews over the past 50 years, were their idea, not Gene Rodenberry's. The 60s Sexual Revolution was in full swing then, and the women saw those micro-minis as feminine empowerment to show on-camera just how high those hemlines could be hiked.

I always had my doubts about that explanation and their sincerity. Unless their reasoning stemmed from a truly twisted notion of empowerment. They do not look very empowered trying to unobstrusively pull down those skirts or sitting askance so they do not reveal too much.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Florinaldo

[lurker22]

It still irks me every time they call Sara/Ava "Captains", or Ava "Captain". Ava is not captain material, and no matter how many times the writers try to force it, that's not going to change (apparently, the writers think of Ava's promotion as organic, and Ava is such a boss that she simply can't be just taking orders like the other Legends).

If we do get Zari 1.0 back, we definitely can do without "Captain Sharpe". Zari 1.0 is a much more capable second-in-command to Sara, and she's proven it time and time again.

[MadyGirl1987]

Really enjoyed this episode. They did a great job of selecting who got paired up with who in which show.

I laughed to see Mick as Kahn.

Of course Nate and Behrad would be Chandler and Joey(with hints of Ross in that they still had Behrad and Zari siblings on the show).

Caity seemed to be having a blast.

On the shallow end, Matt Ryan looked VERY good in his butlers suit.

[Starfish35]

I can’t really do anything but echo what everyone else has already said.  It was a fantastic episode, with the only two sour notes being the revival of the Nate/Zari 1.0 romance and the whole “co-captains” things.  Seriously!?!  We get it already - stop mentioning it every other line.  🤦🏻‍♀️

Tala Ashe and Caity Lotz were definitely the MVPs.  Zari has really kind of become the heart of the show, and having Zari 1.0 show up to guide everyone else out was a great choice.  And while I loved Caity’s Shatner imitation, her best scene was her speech to Ava about living life, showing why she will always be My Captain, and this whole “co-captains” nonsense needs to disappear immediately. 

I hate that the whole Nate/Zari thing has put a damper on my enthusiasm for the return of Zari 1.0, but...I’m sorry.  Tala and Matt just have far more chemistry. 

Best use of Gary and Mona ever I think.  Wow.  And they even worked in Lita and Ali!  And Mick’s hair flips! 😂  Also have to agree that Ray was missed - he would have been great in this episode. 😢

Here’s a question though.  What caused the totem to activate and spit out Zari 1.0?  I guess there could be several explanations.  Maybe whatever magic it’s made up sensed something was wrong.  Or...could it maybe have been the Enchantress, introducing a new variable to shake up the situation? I don’t know.  I’m just speculating here.  🤷🏻‍♀️

Edited May 27, 2020 by Starfish35
Adding a thought

[jelaine]

9 hours ago, lurker22 said:

If we do get Zari 1.0 back, we definitely can do without "Captain Sharpe". Zari 1.0 is a much more capable second-in-command to Sara, and she's proven it time and time again.

Zari 2.0 is a much more capable second-in-command to Sara whether she's proved it or not.

[questionfear]

12 hours ago, ketose said:

It's kind of SOP for a show to have a cheap filler episode before the finale, but this one dragged for me. It reminded me too much of the Spear of Destiny thing. Plus, I thought the Romans were all about orgies and overconsumption. Why have a world of mush and totalitarianism? They might as well have Vandal Savage run things.

The Fates weren't Romans though-they're ancient Greek (?) gods who believe that humanity needs to be ruled with an iron fist. And it makes a twisted sort of sense that they feel the need to overcompensate for a world where free will was running rampant by creating this tightly bound world instead. 

[VCRTracking]

Me too Caity!

Now that Zari 1.0 is back I wouldn't be surprised next season if they had her and Nate break up and just go forward with Zari 2.0 and Constantine. They've got a Cordelia/Angel dynamic that is much more fun.

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by VCRTracking

[lurker22]

Dominic was hilarious. I have no idea who he's supposed to be, but the way he spoke and the hair flip, it was great.

I liked seeing Sara hug Behrad in the background while Nate/Zari kissed. They had a good friendship in the premiere, but it was dropped right after that.

I feel really bad for Charlie. She was desperate to save her friends, but she was afraid to go against her sisters. And so this was the only way she could do it. I thought Maisie played the desperation and hope (that the Legends would just listen) really well.

This season is really just a rehash of S2. We have the ancient artifact being scattered across space and the Legends racing against the villains to retrieve them, the artifact has control over people's fate/destiny, an alternate doomed reality, a Legends collecting other Legends from where they were scattered, and making them wake up from the alt AU, and the promotion of a captain. I just hope I won't have to watch the new captain save the day in the finale.

[mrspidey]

37 minutes ago, lurker22 said:

Dominic was hilarious. I have no idea who he's supposed to be, but the way he spoke and the hair flip, it was great.

 

This guy:

 

[Goldmoon]

Echoing everyone else's disappointment with the Nate romance and the co-captain thing. Jeez. Creator's pets are the worst. I cringed when Ava took over the narration. Please Fates, let Zari 1.0 stay! With or without 2.0. It is a real compliment to TA that we've missed her so much even though she's been on the screen all season. I was cringing when I saw Mona but they've used her well.

[shantown]

This was a wild episode, but it was the perfect Legends sort of wild. It also seems to be a more purposeful sort of wacky to me - they were in TV for a reason, and the reason related to the larger antagonist arc of the season. I prefer that to some of the more mad-lib style episode where it seems like they are pushing weird combos of things JUST for the sake of it being weird - the "Biff sings James Taylor to stop a minotaur from killing Hemingway" is the episode that always comes to mind when I think about trying to hard to be wacky.

I love Zari 1.0 and Zari 2.0 and hope they find a way to give one a good sendoff, because as much as I love them both, I am okay with just one Zari on the ship.

I liked the wrapup for Constantine here and being willing to stay a butler in a fake tv prison to keep Astra and her mom together. Though he's grown on me, this would be a wonderful end to Constantine's time with the Legends.

I'm hoping the writers and producers take some time over the long hiatus to think about where they want the show to go next... and that they decide to change plans and not make Ava the captain or a co-captain. GET YOUR OWN STORYLINE, AVA.

[blackwing]

Echoing the dislike of "Captains", "co-captains", etc.  Sara is the only Captain.  Ava is at best the sidekick or the Deputy Captain.  Even then, I don't think she would be the deputy.  She joined the team late and even then she only tagged along as Sara's girlfriend.  I would think Zari 1.0 or Nate would be much better as Deputy Captain.  The Deputy Captain is like the field commander, and that's not Ava.

I really enjoyed the Highcastle Abbey segment, particularly the English accents on Astra and Natalie.  Least favourite was Mr. Parker's Cul-De-Sac, I know we have seen him before but it just didn't work for me.  The song seemed like something that could be blatantly ripped off from "Book of Mormon".  Something about the cadence and the attempt to be witty.

I'm in the minority because I really don't care for Behrad.  I would happily lose Behrad if we could keep both Zaris and pay Tala Ashe double her salary.

[Sakura12]

I didn't enjoy this episode as most people seem to have. I liked it better when they did it in Season 2. I was more interested in the 1984 Fate world, so I liked Mona and Gary's storyline. 

The co-captain thing is really ruining my enjoyment of this show. Even in a fake tv show they have to both be Captains. Spock wasn't a Captain! That Captain speech she gave her incompetent co-captain was the kind of speech S1-3 Sara would've given her whole team not just her girlfriend. Is Sara even allowed to talk to anyone else outside of group settings anymore?

I liked Caity's Shatner impression, its probably the most fun she's had all season since she actually got do something different. 

I loved OG Zari calling Sara her Captain and just calling Ava, Ava. But of course she had to fall in line with the rest and declare Ava the best ever. We can't have anyone wonder why Ava's suddenly in charge or why Sara and Ava have to share everything. 

Also why is Sara still blind when she wasn't in the tv world. Charlie brought her and Behrad back to life but kept her blind? 

[shantown]

2 hours ago, blackwing said:

I would think Zari 1.0 or Nate would be much better as Deputy Captain.

Yeah, I don't even like Nate but I think he'd be a better deputy/assistant/co captain in terms of longevity on the ship and ability to roll with the curveballs the Legends always get thrown. 
 

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

Also why is Sara still blind when she wasn't in the tv world. Charlie brought her and Behrad back to life but kept her blind? 

It was really weird that Sara was still blind. It almost just seemed like a set-up for her not to be able to see that there were two Zari's so Ava could make the "oh so relatable" clone comment, but even that seems weird because until very recently Ava wouldn't even say the word clone.


Also I feel like the show (or us) really missed a fun opportunity to call the Fates the Legion of Loom.

[tennisgurl]

3 hours ago, blackwing said:

I would think Zari 1.0 or Nate would be much better as Deputy Captain.  The Deputy Captain is like the field commander, and that's not Ava.

Really, the obvious choice of number two should have been Ray. While he does tend to sometimes run head first into things, he is very smart (even when they sometimes made him a bit too goofy) has leadership skills, was a CEO so he knows how to work with and lead a large group, and has been with the team for the longest alongside Sara and Mick (and Gideon of course) and knows them all and their strengths and weaknesses really well. He cares a lot about people in general and is very empathetic, and that would make him a really strong number two for Sara's more pragmatic captain. But, they wrote him off so that we could spend more time with the writers new favorites, especially Ava, who is clearly the writers favorite character now. I swear, the more times the writers lecture me about how much I should love Ava, the more she annoys me, and beyond running the Time Bureau when Rip wasn't around (which she ran into the ground, lets not forget) I have no idea what qualifications she has to be co-captain beyond being Sara's girlfriend. Almost anyone would be a better choice.

Edited May 27, 2020 by tennisgurl

[Sakura12]

Ava barely has any empathy for the girlfriend she supposedly loves when it comes to things involving other people Sara knows.

Case in point. Captain Ava as usual was thinking only of herself when she wanted to stay in the fake world because she saw Sara die (even though Sara's alive now) While Captain Sara  brushed off her death was like we have to get out of here and rescue the whole team.  No matter how many dream worlds they put Sara in, she'd still rather live in the real one, flaws and all. I guess I should be grateful that Sara still thinks about the team and not just Ava. But that continues to show how much of a terrible leader Ava is, yet they want to keep shoving the Co-Captain thing in our faces. 

With as many time as Sara died, Ava seeing Sara die isn't special. Its more welcome to the death having near Sara Lance experiences club. 

[ketose]

There's only one captain.

Rip Hunter.

[Sakura12]

I thought Rip was a terrible Captain for the Legends too. He also didn't care about them as individuals, only how he could use them. He did learn to care later but he had to admit that Sara was the right person to lead a team of misfits. She's a former bad guy (assassin) so she understands others like her and will gladly have them on the team if they want to do better and she's a hero that fights alongside other heroes so she understands the people that want to be heroes. Rip may have brought them together but it was Sara who keeps them together. So for me Sara is the one true Captain for the Legends. 

[Urahara]

I'm just glad Behrad is back.

[thuganomics85]

Quote

Really, the obvious choice of number two should have been Ray. While he does tend to sometimes run head first into things, he is very smart (even when they sometimes made him a bit too goofy) has leadership skills, was a CEO so he knows how to work with and lead a large group, and has been with the team for the longest alongside Sara and Mick (and Gideon of course) and knows them all and their strengths and weaknesses really well.

Since the Star Trek stuff is still fresh in my mind, I feel like they would have been better off with an almost Kirk/Spock/Bones trio with Sara, Ray, and Zari 1.0.  Sara is the one that is level-headed, pragmatic, and willing to get her hands bloodied, Ray is the emotional core of the team and knows how to interact with others and assess things from a personal level, and Zari 1.0. is the one who thinks of the worst cases scenarios and have the team be ready for things to possibly go south (along with that classic Bones-style snark!)  But sadly that seems to be no longer an option with Ray gone (boo!)

Honestly though, I don't want to hate on Ava as much as I do, because I admit that a lot of it is my own persona bias with her relationship with Sara, since I'm fully onboard the Sara/Nyssa train, even though I suspect that train is pretty much destroyed now.  But even looking past that, Ava has been given captaining" responsibility several times, and always comes up short.  And yet Sara seems to truly act like they're on equal footing.  I'm just not seeing it.  At this point, I'd actually trust Mick more, because at the bare minimum, he would likely delegate assignments to those who will be good at the particular tasks.  Sure, his "hands off approach" would really just be an excuse to drink some more, but I feel like it would still end up being more effective than whenever Ava is leading to team.   

[Stats Queen]

22 hours ago, Florinaldo said:

I always had my doubts about that explanation and their sincerity. Unless their reasoning stemmed from a truly twisted notion of empowerment. They do not look very empowered trying to unobstrusively pull down those skirts or sitting askance so they do not reveal too much.

It was a different time and empowerment for women then is very different than today. Empowerment in the late sixties early seventies was about owning their own person and being free to be sexual beings that weren’t confined to wearing dresses and vacuuming whilst wearing pearls.

It was - I am a woman, I can make my own choices, I can show my body and I control my decisions. 

 

 

 

[RobertDeSneero]

She was entertaining at it, but I have to admit that a Shatner impression is one of the easiest ones out there, so I am not impressed.

This episode made me get why the different Zaris have different choices in men.  The first Zari comes from a depressing timeline and seeks out a non-angsty companion.  The second has had a more privileged life and is attracted to a bad boy who can bring her down a notch.

What happens when you have a spare copy of a character?  I'm thinking Farscape.  Whether next episode or next season, I expect the extra to die a tragic, heroic death.

[Florinaldo]

55 minutes ago, Stats Queen said:

It was a different time

I do remember those times. I was there, and none of the women I knew then would have thought that wearing ultra-short skirts for the titillation of the straight male TV audience was empowering. A trend that was perpetuated through a number of  ST series, with all the bare mid-riffs and backs, the tight catsuits and near-pyjamas, not to mention the frequent cleavages. It was indeed a different time when productions could get away with it so blatantly and extensively.

 

10 hours ago, Goldmoon said:

Echoing everyone else's disappointment with the Nate romance and the co-captain thing.

Although I do agree that the co-captaincy idea seems to be gratuitous fan service to those who like Sara and Ava as a couple. I have no particular negative feelings towards Nate and Zari being together. I think the actors make the attraction feel real and sincere. True the writing is not the best with Nate, a full-fledged historian no less, often being relegated to the role of an adult frat boy. As for Zari, at best I found her unobjectionable and rather colourless in the group, until recently where things picked up a tad with the character.

 

[legaleagle53]

On second thought, I'm sorry I said anything. Carry on!

Edited May 30, 2020 by legaleagle53

[Spaceman Spiff]

Wow did I not like this episode at all. Aside from having Mona and the Nate/Zari stuff back on the screen, and Astra being blah. Everything feels like a massive retread of what has been done before countless times.

S2 had the Spear of Destiny rewritten reality, the non ElseWorlds participation episode where Charlie/Constantine constantly rewrite history and we get Puppets of Tomorrow, the end of last seasons stupid Heyworld where Zari rewrites her history, capping it off with Crisis, which rewrites history/reality and we got the crap episode that started this season. 

To top it off, I didn't find any of it funny or amusing.

I also seriously can't accept that this was Charlie's resolution and that she thought it was all ok. Way to make badass Charlie a doormat to her sisters.

I really hope they do a massive course correction for next season because I am losing faith in this show.

[Florinaldo]

8 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

As I said, it was the 60s, and that was the feminist idea of empowerment at the time.

I would not say it was the feminist idea; I am not certain that some of the more prominent feminists of the time like Steinem, Abzug, Friedan or others would have endorsed it (while perhaps being reluctant to publicly criticise another woman, as is often the case in any social movement). It may however have been some women's idea of what could pass as empowerment. ST had a rather checkered history regarding the treatment of genders and sexual diversity, something that was pointed out from the very start, since some people immediately were conscious of it, despite it being "another time".

Anyway, my initial point still stands: having the male crewmen walk around in tight small shorts was an amusing restoration of balance in Star Trip.

[benteen]

Great episode, maybe the best one yet for Legends.  They had had some good ones of late but this was a real standout.

Loved the TV homages and the 1984-influenced world.  It actually made good use of Mona and worked her in the story well.

Always appreciate a Star Trek homage with Mick as Dahn being the highlight. 

Zari is definitely the MVP and I will share the sentiment that she has earned the right to be first officer like Sara earned the right to be captain.  I wonder which Zari will remain.

Would have loved to see Ray in this episode.  Hope we see Mr. Parker again.

Capains, our captains, co-captains...no show.  Sara is the ONLY captain.  Ava is a good Spock and that's fine but she will never be captain.  As noted elsewhere, if Sara had a boyfriend they would never allow him to be co-captain (nor should they) but the writers think it's cute and apparently empowering to make Sara's girlfriend the co-captain. 

I refuse though to allow my annoyance with this to ruin my love for the show.

Great episode.  I only wish next week's finale wasn't the last episode of the show until next year.

[quarks]

Quick detour with Star Trek and the miniskirts: 

1. Yes, Grace Lee Whitney generally gets the credit for the miniskirt idea - but it's important to note that in context, she suggested this after she was was told to ramp up the sexiness between her character and Captain Kirk, and after NBC complained that the Starfleet uniforms worn by the women in the pilot episodes weren't sexy/hot enough.

Which is to say, she didn't waltz in and say, I want to feel empowered! Put me in a miniskirt! She was told that she wasn't hot/sexy enough and needed to dial it up, and then, she suggested the miniskirts.

Whitney was later sexually assaulted by a network executive while filming episode 8, "Miri." She then abruptly left the show, and ended up battling alcholism/drug addictions. 

2. Nichelle Nichols did speak up in favor of the miniskirts in her autobiography, saying she saw them as a symbol of sexual liberation. That book also details the ongoing issues she had as a black woman on a network TV show, ranging from getting paid considerably less to having to show up earlier than most of the cast because supposedly her makeup needed "more time" to having her lines constantly cut to having her fan mail tossed out and so on. She was so frustrated that she nearly quit the show. 

She also appeared in fewer episodes of the original series than did Nimoy, Shatner and Kelly.

Nichols was sleeping with Gene Roddenberry at the time.

3. Roddenberry's girlfriend and then wife, Majel Barrett, originally appeared on Star Trek wearing pants. In her later appearances as Nurse Christine Chapel, her miniskirts are longer than the ones worn by Whitney and Nichols. She also has a lot less screentime; Barrett only appeared in 36 of the original 88 episodes, sometimes only as the voice of the ship's computer. As far as I know, she didn't make any public statements about the miniskirts one way or another, despite decades of involvement with Star Trek. 

4. These were the only three women to have speaking parts in more than two episodes of the original show.  All three women wore pants in their later Star Trek film/TV appearances, starting with Star Trek: The Motion Picture, filmed slightly less than a decade after the broadcast of the original show.

5. Denise Crosby, Gates McFadden and Marina Sirtis have all gone on record about the sexism they encountered on Star Trek: The Next Generation, which also had Gene Roddenberry as a showrunner.

I think it's true that many women at the time looked at Star Trek: The Original Series and said, hey, yeah, I can explore space and wear sexy clothes, and that showing a future where women could be Star Fleet officers and scientists and still be interested in sex was a powerful message. At the same time, I hope you can understand why I think using the phrase "feminist idea of empowerment" ignores quite a lot of the overall context - including the fact that only three women - two sleeping with the showrunner, one sexually assaulted by a network executive - were able to appear in multiple episodes of the show. And all three were put into miniskirts. 

And to bring this back to Legends of Tomorrow, I have no idea how much Marc Guggenheim, Grainne Godfree and James Eagan know - or care - about any of this history or context. But I also don't think it's a coincidence that the men were placed in short shorts on an episode that's pretty explicitly about free will and standing up to authority.

[Quark]

This was hysterical.

[darkestboy]

I loved that. The TV shows they chose to spoof were easy choices but they worked nonetheless.

I cannot see both Zaris being kept next season and while both do deserve to stay, it might be easy to merge them together.

Behrad came back an episode earlier than expected.

Astra seems to realise that she has to let go of her mother. I like that Constantine was supportive here and his disgust of having to be a butler was amusing.

Don't mind Nate/Zari but eh, let's not rush into it.

Mick loved his hair in that world. Sara and Ava's scenes were the weaker part of the episode.

Charlie, Mona and Gary worked fine with lesser screen time here, 9/10