S05.E12: Never My Love

[Athena]

Quote

Claire struggles to survive brutal treatment from her captors.

Reminder: The is the book talk thread. This can include spoilers for ALL the books. If you wish to remain unspoiled for any of the books, please leave now and head to the No Book Talk episode thread.

[DietCokeJunkie]

That was gut wrenching. And on top of the expected misery and pathos, we have Roger and poor Marsali dealing with the aftermath of their actions as well. Very well done, but hard to watch. I may have to wait a few weeks before I can rewatch. 
 

I did love seeing everyone in the 60s, even though you knew that was Claire’s way of dealing with the horror. 
 

ETA: I will never hear that song the same way again. 

Edited May 10, 2020 by DietCokeJunkie
Can’t get the music out of my head.

[toolazy]

That kicked my ass. I went in expecting to be beyond irritated and ended up a puddle of tears.

I mean, I'm still irritated but damn. They sucked me in anyway.

 

I have to say that Marsalis pregnancies continue to confuse.

 

Also, apologies to anyone whose theory that B&R went nowhere I dismissed. They totally got me with that.

 

 

Edited May 10, 2020 by toolazy

[LoveLeigh]

I do not know what to say. Rape is beyond horrendous but I think that it was weakened by showing how Claire handled it in her mind. It was a distraction for me. 

This is such a beautiful and carefully detailed show but when I look back, very little happens. I think the art direction and sets carry the show. The pace is slow and it plods along from episode to episode. 
 

[morgan]

I loved that they opened with the drum, since we didn’t get it during the rescue.  I thought the rapes were handled well.  Traumatic, horrible, and loved that they had her disassociate back to the 60s.  The focus on the orange, the painting, everyone there (except Bree and roger).  Loved the choice that everyone except Jamie was dressed for the 60s.  The plaid he wrapped around her.  ❤️

I personally loved that choice.  And I’m betting the actors loved the costuming.  

The abduction/rapes went on forever and I wished it would end.  And I think that was the point.  Added to the horror.

I do wish we had heard the drum over and over before we saw Jamie et al taking everyone out. loved all the men in her life taking up for her.  And while in theory/in real life I am not for vigilante justice, in this scene I cheer every single death. And Marsali for the win.  The actress is amazing!   

Lastly, glad they did a good explanation as why the stones didn’t work...they were thinking of home.  So nice fakeout by the show.  

Edited May 10, 2020 by morgan

[Cassye1021]

1 hour ago, morgan said:

I loved that they opened with the drum, since we didn’t get it during the rescue.  I thought the rapes were handled well.  Traumatic, horrible, and loved that they had her disassociate back to the 60s.  The focus on the orange, the painting, everyone there (except Bree and roger).  Loved the choice that everyone except Jamie was dressed for the 60s.  The plaid he wrapped around her.  ❤️

I personally loved that choice.  And I’m betting the actors loved the costuming.  

The abduction/rapes went on forever and I wished it would end.  And I think that was the point.  Added to the horror.

I do wish we had heard the drum over and over before we saw Jamie et al taking everyone out. loved all the men in her life taking up for her.  And while in theory/in real life I am not for vigilante justice, in this scene I cheer every single death. And Marsali for the win.  The actress is amazing!   

Lastly, glad they did a good explanation as why the stones didn’t work...they were thinking of home.  So nice fakeout by the show.  

I thought it was because Jemy was thinking of a different home than they were.  

[Quickbeam]

Great episode. Appropriate trigger warning before hand and help line info afterwards. I really hated this plot line in the book but it was done as well as it could be. As someone who grew up in the 60’s, those scenes were pitch perfect. I loved seeing Marsali with her hair down. Strong acting by all involved, just the right melancholy tone. Very pleased if that can be said for this type of story. 

Edited May 10, 2020 by Quickbeam
Typo

[nodorothyparker]

Happy Mother's Day everyone.  Here's some gang rape.

Seriously, if I'm Roger at this point I'm watching my ass as practically the only main or even secondary character who hasn't been sexually assaulted, although maybe they figure the hanging cancels those odds out.  Yes yes, I know it's in the book but the show certainly hasn't had any problems changing other plot points up and could have done something anything to not get us here where the only reaction I'm able to muster is a weary why I am still watching this sense of resignation.  Rapelander complaints, here we come.

It sucks because there were things that were done well.  The 60s disassociation was pitch perfect while including just enough elements of discord to never let you forget that it wasn't real.  I particularly liked seeing Jamie as the only character in basically the same clothes he wears in his own time as almost a reverse image of Claire in the past.  I love when the show leans into how fabulous Lauren Lyle is as Marsali and gives her more to do.  Now if the show could just let her out of the dowdy matron's cap because she looks great with her hair down, but I'm guessing that's the show's way of differentiating her from Claire and Bree as a woman of the time.

The stones spitting Bree and Roger back out because they were thinking of "home" probably without specifying which home they meant is a nice touch.  Now I can only wonder if we're going to have to go through the whole so long farewell again next season.

[AD55]

30 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Seriously, if I'm Roger at this point I'm watching my ass as practically the only main or even secondary character who hasn't been sexually assaulted, although maybe they figure the hanging cancels those odds out.  Yes yes, I know it's in the book but the show certainly hasn't had any problems changing other plot points up and could have done something anything to not get us here where the only reaction I'm able to muster is a weary why I am still watching this sense of resignation.  Rapelander complaints, here we come.

Same here. My first choice was to eliminate this whole incident, which has always seemed contrived. Diana uses rape to ratchet up tension and demonstrate that the characters really, really like each other. There are other ways to do this.

Otherwise:

--I like that Roger and Bree's choosing the ridge as their home was followed by Roger's reminding Jamie that he had called him a son of his house. A largely symbolic gesture has become a realty, and Roger now accepts the call in a way he couldn't quite at the gathering. Sam and Rik are great together.

--At least the gang rape was from Claire's point of view.

--I rarely cry at television shows, but I choked up when Claire called Marsali to her when she was in Bree's arms. I'm really invested in that relationship. Also appreciated that Claire asked if Marsali was okay.

--I hate vigilante justice, but way to make use of your medical training, Marsali. As always Lauren Lyle was fantastic.

--Glad Fergus had something to do in this episode, though I wish that something had not been participating in a revenge posse.

--The only thing I remotely liked about this story line in the book was Roger's drum. Like Morgan, I'm glad that was at least referenced. I kind of wish we'd heard Claire say that no one made the drums sing like Roger, or something similar. I don't recall the quote exactly.

--I grew up in the 60s, which is perhaps why Jamie and Claire naked in bed made me think of that iconic Annie Leibovitz photo of John wrapped around Yoko, though in that photograph only John is naked.

--The Thanksgiving scenes were well done, and Catriona playing 60s Claire as a spectator was perfect. I thought her discovering that Brianna, Roger, and Jem had been killed in a car crash was a callback to when Claire compares going through the stones to being in an automobile accident.

[theschnauzers]

There are some additional call backs in the 60s disassociation scene that are mentioned in the inside the world post episode segment, which made it even more interesting. 

Sam and Caitlin had a lot of imput on that story arc, apparently. There’s a reason for the house, the title card of episode five has a magazine with that house on the cover. The Orange was a callback to one of the episodes in France, for another.

I thought the episode was well done all the way around

The one thing we’re overlooking is that Claire told Marsali to brew and prepare the syringe before leaving the kitchen. Marsali wasn’t doing this on her own, she was doing what Claire was sworn not to do. Personally, I’ve would have finished him off at the campsite. The uncertainty would have unnerved the Browns far more.

[sas616]

6 hours ago, Cassye1021 said:

I thought it was because Jemy was thinking of a different home than they were.  

Roger and Bree both said they were thinking of home.  I took that to mean that Fraser's Ridge is now their home...not the future.  Which settles Rogers mind about going back there.

[sas616]

3 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Now if the show could just let her out of the dowdy matron's cap because she looks great with her hair down, but I'm guessing that's the show's way of differentiating her from Claire and Bree as a woman of the time.

The reason Marsali has had that cap on all season is because before filming Season 5, she dyed her hair blue and they could not get the color out.   She said that her bosses were not pleased.

[Quickbeam]

19 minutes ago, theschnauzers said:

There are some additional call backs in the 60s disassociation scene that are mentioned in the inside the world post episode segment, which made it even more interesting. 

There was a post episode segment? For me, STARZ just went right into High Town....

[theschnauzers]

19 minutes ago, Quickbeam said:

There was a post episode segment? For me, STARZ just went right into High Town....

It depends which “play” button you hit, apparently. If you hit the one to your left, it skips that segment, if you hit the one on the right side near the center screen, it’ll play the next episode segment (except for this episode) and then the inside the world Outlander segment.

[crystalball]

50 minutes ago, theschnauzers said:

The one thing we’re overlooking is that Claire told Marsali to brew and prepare the syringe before leaving the kitchen. Marsali wasn’t doing this on her own, she was doing what Claire was sworn not to do. Personally, I’ve would have finished him off at the campsite. The uncertainty would have unnerved the Browns far more.

I think Claire asked her to brew something else (comfrey?). It was a brownish powder in a jar.  Marsali chose the hemlock root (or whatever it was) herself. 

[jenn31]

1 hour ago, Quickbeam said:

There was a post episode segment? For me, STARZ just went right into High Town....

I use the phone app and I hate that they have the “next show will start in... seconds”. You can click the “x” to stop it going there (then it continues with the credits and the “inside the episode” segment) but if you miss it then it automatically goes to the next show. I wish there was an option to disable that. 

[Sew Sumi]

1 hour ago, theschnauzers said:

It depends which “play” button you hit, apparently. If you hit the one to your left, it skips that segment, if you hit the one on the right side near the center screen, it’ll play the next episode segment (except for this episode) and then the inside the world Outlander segment.

I did it the way I've done it all season and got shunted to High Town. Whatever, I guess. 

[areca]

True grief is known in the quiet places.  The showers, the bathtubs, the closets, the back yard, the corners, the hallways, the kitchens, the floors, the cover of night and the million other places where no one will see.  And then you get up.  And get on with it.  And, if you do it well, no one sees.

Edited May 11, 2020 by areca

[ruby24]

Okay, I don't understand why they headfaked the Bree/Roger stuff at all if they actually weren't going to send them back yet. Why bother?

Because now we know it will follow the books and they'll just have to go back next season when the new baby needs the heart surgery after all. Unless they're just not going to send them back at all or do any of the 1980's stuff with Buck, etc., which...I can't really imagine. That shit went on for two whole books.

Was this all just to figure out some other reason that Roger would agree to hang around for any length of time (however briefly)?

[Scarlett45]

Poor poor Claire. 
 

I am glad Marsali killed that sick fucker. I knew his brother wasn’t going to be upset he was dead, likely he was always starting shit with the wrong people and causing trouble for everyone. A part of me does think he went spouting that stuff for a clean death- rather than being left in the elements to wither away. 
 

No I don’t think we are meant to think Claire and Jaime had sex, I think they were just cuddling and because it’s tv it was in the most uncomfortable position so that the actors weren’t violating nudity clauses etc. 
 

I do think the Native American “gentleman” will be back next season- no he didn’t participate in the gang rape or beat her but he left her, knowing what they would do. “You should act more afraid.”- no fucker people shouldn’t attack others and if you know someone is about to be brutally attacked to try to help them. 

[Haleth]

Oh!  Oh!  King Louis gave Claire an orange after he had sex with her. I got it!

[areca]

Quote

The focus on the orange

If you've ever been in healthcare, you'll know that you learn to give shots with an orange as it's thickness and resistance feels quite similar to giving shots to a human or animal.  Which is how Marsali offed the Brown guy as she was learning to use a syringe.  I enjoyed the oranges.

Edited May 11, 2020 by areca

[WatchrTina]

Okay I'm writing my immediate reactions without looking at what anyone else has written.  My first reaction is that my being a reader is really getting in the way of this episode for me.  There are so many things that are different and they bothered me -- not because the changes are wrong per se, only that they were not what I saw in my mind's eye.

For example, in the book Claire accompanies Jamie when he returns the body.  Everyone see's how badly she was beaten.  Furthermore Jamie tells them that not only was Claire assaulted, they also assaulted "the daughter of my house who is with child" (Marsali).  I always understood that those two things -- SEEING what had been done to Claire and hearing of the assault of a pregnant woman  -- are the reasons the Brownsville squad does NOT seek vengeance in the book.  But in the ep that vengeance is practically promised.  I don't like that change.

I also really missed Roger striking terror in the hearts of the kidnappers when they hear his Highland battle drum (the bodhran).  That's the sort of thing that probably works better in the book than it could on screen but I'm sorry not to have had it.

I also was sorry not to see the scene where Claire asks to bathe in a stream.  I get why they changed it (and I'm sure Caitriona was glad not to have to have to go into a freezing mountain stream in the nude) but that desire to be immediately cleansed was really visceral in the book.  The scene in the bathtub by the fire didn't really have the same resonance.

Another moment from he book that they chose to cut was Jamie's request that he should make love to her that first night -- so that if she falls pregnant (unlikely, but possible) there will always be the possibility that it is HIS child.  Then again, I guess their having made love is implied by that lovely shot of them on the bed at the end.

And whoa, Marsali.  Well, I guess that guy just learned the hard way that you do not mess with a daughter of Laoghaire MacKenzie (especially one that is full of pregnancy hormones and you ESPECIALLY do not endangered her unborn child.)

This is a really tough part of the book to read.  All things considered, I think they did a good job of it.

So . . . about Roger and Bree . . . I have a theory.  But it addresses future books so I'll  put it behind a spoiler screen. 

Spoiler

I think the writers were reacting to a criticism of the book series, where people have suggested that travel through the stones is depicted as being easy.  Roger & Bree go through the stones like a revolving door. So I think the show writers have decided to either completely skip Roger & Bree's return to the future OR they've decided to show that only dire need is sufficient to carry them back (when they are desperate for medical attention for their second child.)  Of course that begs the question of how Claire "fell" through time in the first place.

Regardless of the reason, color me SHOCKED when they saw Ian.  That was a plot twist I did NOT see coming.  But now that they are back on the Ridge it makes their tender goodbye scenes from the prior episode something of a waste, doesn't it?

As for Claire's disassociative reveries with Jamie, Fergus, Marsali, Jocasta and Murtagh all in the future (and Murtagh alive!) -- well that was really interesting.  If only I hadn't been spoiled for it (damned people talking about it and posting clips of it on Twitter earlier today!)

 

44 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Oh!  Oh!  King Louis gave Claire an orange after he had sex with her. I got it!

Oooooh, good catch.  But unless I'm mis-remembering, he didn't give it to her -- she helped herself to one before curtseying and leaving.  I always rather liked that little moment.

Edited May 11, 2020 by WatchrTina

[Wouldofshouldof]

All I know when I see an orange in a show or movie is that they symbolize death or danger. Think The Godfather/Mad Men/Breaking Bad...

[Eureka]

2 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

I did it the way I've done it all season and got shunted to High Town. Whatever, I guess. 

Same with me.

[GHScorpiosRule]

4 hours ago, Quickbeam said:

There was a post episode segment? For me, STARZ just went right into High Town....

 

4 hours ago, theschnauzers said:

It depends which “play” button you hit, apparently. If you hit the one to your left, it skips that segment, if you hit the one on the right side near the center screen, it’ll play the next episode segment (except for this episode) and then the inside the world Outlander segment.

Yeah. It didn’t work for me, either! I was all like: I don’t give any FUCKS about their new show! I thought the finale would be two hours, but then don’t even get the after the episode bit!

I, too was gutted, and @WatchrTina expressed my wanting the scenes that give the emotional punch to be included. 
 

Shallow point-I 🥰❤️🥰❤️🥰❤️🥰❤️🥰 Jamie with the short ginger hair! Was that Sam’s hair? A wig? Me likey!

Wot??
 

I guess I’ll have to be satisfied with the lines from Wee Ian, Fergus, and Roger standing for Claire, and Jamie’s ”Kill them all” line, and the words about if there came a time if they were apart, and he didn’t say “I love you, it was because I didna have the time”, because that just GUTTED me in the buik. Though I swear I thought Jamie and Claire were in bed when he said those words to her.

Now I’m going to try and figure out how to get to the after the episode bit.

[sas616]

Surprisingly, the after the episode bit was shown after the finale.   Left the room for a minute and almost missed it.  Just in case someone left the room like I did.  https://www.elle.com/culture/movies-tv/a32428080/outlander-season-5-finale-dream-sequence-explainer/?utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=socialflowTWELM&utm_source=twitter&__twitter_impression=true&fbclid=IwAR3cLu_F41QrEyzkpkWglMrW3cpryLb2uo6qtDOT38tbBFLYXfPBxfIGqAg

 

[GHScorpiosRule]

It didn’t work for me the two times I rewatched-fast forwarded because I can’t watch Claire’s rape again, via prime video.

So I started the stooopid trial via Starz’s app and watched it. And I’ll cancel it tomorrow.

Why Sony or Starz thinks I give any figgidety fucks about their new show and wouldn’t mind them cutting into the only show I do care about, just proves how STOOPID they are.🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬

[SassAndSnacks]

I’m not sure I breathed through the episode.

Of all of the scenes in all of the books, Claire’s abduction is a focal point for me. I don’t know why it stands out more than the other horrific things that have happened to these people. I adore Claire and all of her brashness and her heart. And I guess when I read it I was just shocked that DG would do this to my girl. I’d also felt that at that point, DG would have moved on from rape plot points, so I was really taken aback and stunned by the whole thing at the time.

This episode was gutting and moving and beautifully done. I had so been hoping that they would change the narrative here and not have her be raped. I needed the scenes in the 60s as much as Claire did to survive. For me, they were the highlight of the episode. SO much symbolism. The orange, just like after she was forced to sleep with Louis. The vase, showing that she is finally home and that this is a violation of her haven. Jamie in his normal clothes. I LOVED the call back lines - him telling her that she was shaking so hard his teeth were rattling and don’t be afraid, there’s two of us now. Him wrapping his plaid around her like Episode 1. My goodness, it was brilliant. 

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

I also was sorry not to see the scene where Claire asks to bathe in a stream.  I get why they changed it (and I'm sure Caitriona was glad not to have to have to go into a freezing mountain stream in the nude) but that desire to be immediately cleansed was really visceral in the book.  The scene in the bathtub by the fire didn't really have the same resonance.

Agreed. The visual of Claire resetting her broken nose has always stuck with me.

42 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

and the words about if there came a time if they were apart, and he didn’t say “I love you, it was because I didna have the time”, because that just GUTTED me in the buik. Though I swear I thought Jamie and Claire were in bed when he said those words to her.

I was so happy they included this! It’s the very last line of Book 5, and I figured they’d end the show there, but they didn’t.

I loved the final shot of the two of them curled against each other. The lines Jamie says there about Claire being a brave wee thing are right from the book. We see her so battered, and he’s holding her, and it’s those quiet moments that absolutely undo me in this show. Then, the end credits with the rain...

22 hours ago, toolazy said:

Also, apologies to anyone whose theory that B&R went nowhere I dismissed. They totally got me with that.

My apologies, too. I definitely eye-rolled those theories all last week. 

[aemom]

It's been years since I've read that book but I was sure that I had correctly remembered what happened with Claire and the men. I went to dig up a summary, and I was right and they've really changed it a lot. Brown never actually raped her - it was some other guy that Claire sees many years later and tells Jenny about, who then tells Jamie and then Jamie hunts him down and kills him.

Marsali never killed Brown. She was so upset and worried about retribution on the show that I'm thinking that they will spin that Henri Christian is a dwarf as her punishment for killing a man.

And Bree and Roger never tried to go back at this point. I'm not seeing why they're changing so many plot points. 

[Cdh20]

2 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Okay I'm writing my immediate reactions without looking at what anyone else has written.  My first reaction is that my being a reader is really getting in the way of this episode for me.  There are so many things that are different and they bothered me -- not because the changes are wrong per se, only that they were not what I saw in my mind's eye.

For example, in the book Claire accompanies Jamie when he returns the body.  Everyone see's how badly she was beaten.  Furthermore Jamie tells them that not only was Claire assaulted, they also assaulted "the daughter of my house who is with child" (Marsali).  I always understood that those two things -- SEEING what had been done to Claire and hearing of the assault of a pregnant woman  -- are the reasons the Brownsville squad does NOT seek vengeance in the book.  But in the ep that vengeance is practically promised.  I don't like that change.

I also really missed Roger striking terror in the hearts of the kidnappers when they hear his Highland battle drum (the bodhran).  That's the sort of thing that probably works better in the book than it could on screen but I'm sorry not to have had it.

I also was sorry not to see the scene where Claire asks to bathe in a stream.  I get why they changed it (and I'm sure Caitriona was glad not to have to have to go into a freezing mountain stream in the nude) but that desire to be immediately cleansed was really visceral in the book.  The scene in the bathtub by the fire didn't really have the same resonance.

Another moment from he book that they chose to cut was Jamie's request that he should make love to her that first night -- so that if she falls pregnant (unlikely, but possible) there will always be the possibility that it is HIS child.  Then again, I guess their having made love is implied by that lovely shot of them on the bed at the end.

And whoa, Marsali.  Well, I guess that guy just learned the hard way that you do not mess with a daughter of Laoghaire MacKenzie (especially one that is full of pregnancy hormones and you ESPECIALLY do not endangered her unborn child.)

This is a really tough part of the book to read.  All things considered, I think they did a good job of it.

So . . . about Roger and Bree . . . I have a theory.  But it addresses future books so I'll  put it behind a spoiler screen. 

  Hide contents

I think the writers were reacting to a criticism of the book series, where people have suggested that travel through the stones is depicted as being easy.  Roger & Bree go through the stones like a revolving door. So I think the show writers have decided to either completely skip Roger & Bree's return to the future OR they've decided to show that only dire need is sufficient to carry them back (when they are desperate for medical attention for their second child.)  Of course that begs the question of how Claire "fell" through time in the first place.

Regardless of the reason, color me SHOCKED when they saw Ian.  That was a plot twist I did NOT see coming.  But now that they are back on the Ridge it makes their tender goodbye scenes from the prior episode something of a waste, doesn't it?

As for Claire's disassociative reveries with Jamie, Fergus, Marsali, Jocasta and Murtagh all in the future (and Murtagh alive!) -- well that was really interesting.  If only I hadn't been spoiled for it (damned people talking about it and posting clips of it on Twitter earlier today!)

 

Oooooh, good catch.  But unless I'm mis-remembering, he didn't give it to her -- she helped herself to one before curtseying and leaving.  I always rather liked that little moment.

The king gave her the orange when she first arrived. Then she sat it on the table, when they went to the Star Chamber. After she slept with him, & he dismissed her, she grabbed it off the table on her way out!

[ruby24]

Ok, so the rape scene. I thought it was well done, but I was always wondering how they were going to handle this incident on the show (if they chose to do it), because of the distinctions made over what happened to Claire in the book here. From what I remember, it was three anonymous men: the first guy beat her and masturbated on her, the second guy was that boy who doesn't actually enter her and comes in her skirt or something, and the third guy was the one who did it, while crying about his dead wife I think.

The show most definitely implies that she is raped by several men, like perhaps all of those guys? And the Lionel guy for sure, which didn't happen at all in the book. I wonder why they decided to do it that way.

And unless they've decided never to send Bree and Roger back to the future at all, I don't know what the last episode with all those goodbye scenes was about. What a waste of time.

Edited May 11, 2020 by ruby24

[GHScorpiosRule]

8 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

The show most definitely implies that she is raped by several men, like perhaps all of those guys? And the Lionel guy for sure, which didn't happen at all in the book. I wonder why they decided to do it that way.

She was only raped by Brown and his nephew, which was a deviation from the buik. And you’re right with what actually happened in the buik, and while Roberts said that both Sam and Cait said it should have been portrayed in the show, I don’t understand the deviation. It could still have been a brutal scene if they’d stayed true to the source material.

So what we’re left with the non-buik readers is them thinking Jamie and Claire made love two days after her gang rape. And comparing it to how Claire stopped Jamie from dying/brought him “back to life”.

So, who wrote this finale? Since we didn’t get the opening credits, but jumped straight into the episode, I don’t know who wrote or directed this.

Something that did make me smile was Wee Ian and the toddlers playing with Rollo.

[Linderhill]

5 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

I did it the way I've done it all season and got shunted to High Town. Whatever, I guess. 

 

2 hours ago, sas616 said:

Surprisingly, the after the episode bit was shown after the finale.   Left the room for a minute and almost missed it.  Just in case someone left the room like I did.  https://www.elle.com/culture/movies-tv/a32428080/outlander-season-5-finale-dream-sequence-explainer/?utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=socialflowTWELM&utm_source=twitter&__twitter_impression=true&fbclid=IwAR3cLu_F41QrEyzkpkWglMrW3cpryLb2uo6qtDOT38tbBFLYXfPBxfIGqAg

 

I got the aftershow this time but didn't last week and there was no difference in how I viewed it between all of the rest of the season and last week.  I watched it ondemand and every other episode the aftershow came on after the credits -- except for last week.  Still pisses me off.

I agree that the whole trip to the stones for Roger, Brie and Jemmy was a waste of time.  For sure they'll try again when Mandy is born but it will be with much angst because of this failure.  This was one of the plot points that I'm annoyed they changed.  Along with Roger's drum and the different raping (I seriously could have done without this one, I was waiting for Claire to kick good in the crotch so he couldn't get it up maybe just resorting to more beating -- not that beating is preferable but it would have been different and true to his character).  Wendigo was a surprise, I wonder if he'll take the place of the book rapist for a future vendetta?

[ruby24]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

She was only raped by Brown and his nephew, which was a deviation from the buik. And you’re right with what actually happened in the buik, and while Roberts said that both Sam and Cait said it should have been portrayed in the show, I don’t understand the deviation. It could still have been a brutal scene if they’d stayed true to the source material.

Was she though? Because after Lionel does it he calls for who else "wants their turn," and they show two other guys coming over from the fire before fading out again. And then Claire says "I don't know" when Jamies asks how many, so I thought they were implying that even more men raped her. 

I agree it would still be brutal and traumatizing if they had kept to what happened in the book for this. Implying that it was multiple men like that was pretty tough, imo.

[HurricaneVal]

5 hours ago, areca said:

True grief is known in the quiet places.  The showers, the bathtubs, the closets, the back yard, the corners, the hallways, the kitchens, the floors, the cover of night and the million other places where no one will see.  And then you get up.  And get on with it.  And, if you do it well, no one sees.

This.  This.  1000 times this.

You wrote this so well, it resonates.  It relates.  

[Ziggy]

When Roger and Bree looked up and saw Ian, a part of me just felt like it was a huge letdown. That’s it? I’ve been curious all week! I mean, I was glad that Roger and Bree weren’t really going to the future at this time, but it was still a bit of a huh moment.
 

The more I think about it, though, the more I wonder if it served to solidify Roger’s commitment, especially in his own mind. He had often been eager to return to their own time, so it was really nice to hear him speak of Fraser‘s Ridge as home.

Edited May 11, 2020 by Ziggy

[SassAndSnacks]

4 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Ok, so the rape scene. I thought it was well done, but I was always wondering how they were going to handle this incident on the show (if they chose to do it), because of the distinctions made over what happened to Claire in the book here. From what I remember, it was three anonymous men: the first guy beat her and masturbated on her, the second guy was that boy who doesn't actually enter her and comes in her skirt or something, and the third guy was the one who did it, while crying about his dead wife I think.

The show most definitely implies that she is raped by several men, like perhaps all of those guys? And the Lionel guy for sure, which didn't happen at all in the book. I wonder why they decided to do it that way.

And unless they've decided never to send Bree and Roger back to the future at all, I don't know what the last episode with all those goodbye scenes was about. What a waste of time.

You’re absolutely correct about the book, and I found this to be so disturbing in the show. In the book, a teenage virgin rubbed on her skirts and went, Hodgepile beat off on her and then beat her, and then the nameless man raped her while calling her his wife’s name. When Jamie asks her who she says she doesn’t know. That’s when he says to kill them all. 

That scenario is bad enough. What’s to be gained by making it worse with the implied gang rape by many others? It was horrifying.

4 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

So what we’re left with the non-buik readers is them thinking Jamie and Claire made love two days after her gang rape. And comparing it to how Claire stopped Jamie from dying/brought him “back to life”.

So, who wrote this finale? Since we didn’t get the opening credits, but jumped straight into the episode, I don’t know who wrote or directed this.

Her bruises are faded enough that it should be longer than 2 days, but yeah, that seems to be the general thought. 

Toni and Matt wrote this one. 

Agree that Bree and Roger’s failed trip to the stones was a complete waste. That got a WTF and an eye roll from me. Total waste of time last week during a season that was shortened by an episode.

Edited May 11, 2020 by SassAndSnacks

[Haleth]

9 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

But unless I'm mis-remembering, he didn't give it to her -- she helped herself to one before curtseying and leaving.  I always rather liked that little moment.

Oh, that's right.  That makes even more sense that an orange is a symbol for her for retaking her humanity after an assault.  The fact she focused on an orange in her fantasy meant she was determined to survive.  I think the orange was more significant than the lovely family scenes.

7 hours ago, aemom said:

Marsali never killed Brown.

Did anyone kill him in the surgery?  Funny, of all the things I didn't remember, Marsali killing him was the one thing I did think I remembered.

Re Bree, Rog, and Jemmy's aborted trip to the 20th c, I'm wondering... I know there is talk about next season being the last, although it's possible more will be added, I wonder if this was to shortcut the events of the book, keeping them on the Ridge where we'd want them to be in the end.  I wonder if next season will end with Claire and Jamie not dying in the fire, resolving the whole gold thing, and the family being all together on the brink of the Revolution.  Fade to black.

[DietCokeJunkie]

Quote

8 HOURS AGO,  AEMOM SAID: 

Marsali never killed Brown.

Did anyone kill him in the surgery? 

Mrs. Bugg smothered him with a pillow. 

 

Quote

10 HOURS AGO,  WATCHRTINA SAID: 

But unless I'm mis-remembering, he didn't give it to her -- she helped herself to one before curtseying and leaving.  I always rather liked that little moment.

Oh, that's right. 

But that wasn't right.  King Louis gave her one of his  "rare exotic oranges that no one else has" when she first arrived.  After he took 30 seconds to complete the deed, she made sure to snatch the orange he already gave her as she walked out with her head held high. No one would help themselves to anything in the king's chambers. 

Edited May 11, 2020 by DietCokeJunkie
Formatting problems

[Cdh20]

6 hours ago, Ziggy said:

 

The more I think about it, though, the more I wonder if it served to solidify Roger’s commitment, especially in his own mind. He had often been eager to return to their own time, so it was really nice to hear him speak of Fraser‘s Ridge as home.

That was my takeaway, that Roger now believed this was home! It was his whole arc this season, since he started mentioning going back in episode 1. 

[Fallacy]

I read the book more than a decade ago, and my memory was that Claire was gang raped. My impression while reading was that all the men took turns throughout three night. I’m shocked to read here something different. 

[domina89]

10 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

This episode was gutting and moving and beautifully done. I had so been hoping that they would change the narrative here and not have her be raped. I needed the scenes in the 60s as much as Claire did to survive. For me, they were the highlight of the episode. SO much symbolism. The orange, just like after she was forced to sleep with Louis. The vase, showing that she is finally home and that this is a violation of her haven. Jamie in his normal clothes. I LOVED the call back lines - him telling her that she was shaking so hard his teeth were rattling and don’t be afraid, there’s two of us now. Him wrapping his plaid around her like Episode 1. My goodness, it was brilliant. 

I haven't seen anyone mention that Germain was playing with a toy dragonfly in the 60's sequence.  I thought that was a nice callback, too.

[SassAndSnacks]

28 minutes ago, domina89 said:

I haven't seen anyone mention that Germain was playing with a toy dragonfly in the 60's sequence.  I thought that was a nice callback, too.

Yes!  And Claire saw the rabbit in the grass, just as Jamie did as he laid there wounded on the field at Culloden.  

[iMonrey]

I found this to be a depressing ending to a lackluster season. This was a throwback to Season 1 levels of torture porn. I don't understand why Diana Gabaldon is so fascinated with rape and torture, and for me it's the primary drawback to her stories. You have to put up with a lot of it if you want to continue following.

Overall this season just didn't pop for me. I think it's primarily because it was the only season that didn't move the story to a new location. All prior seasons took place somewhere new and this one didn't, and I can't really point to a specific episode or turning point this season as a standout.

[toolazy]

4 hours ago, DietCokeJunkie said:

Mrs. Bugg smothered him with a pillow. 

 

 

 

They originally kept him in the Bug's cabin.  Maybe they were hiding him from Claire?  Anyway, he saw a hunk of the gold that the Bugs stole.  He was so afraid of them that he crawled to the Big House and that's where Mrs Bug finally killed him.  Not because he raped/beat/kidnapped Claire but because he knew they had the gold.  

[Cdh20]

12 hours ago, ruby24 said:

 

The show most definitely implies that she is raped by several men, like perhaps all of those guys? And the Lionel guy for sure, which didn't happen at all in the book. I wonder why they decided to do it that way.

 

I saw the set up for Lionel to rape her, as his punishment  to Claire for having his wife not sleep with him because of Claire's advice. I know the show changes things from the book, but they usually tie them all together.

[Clawdette]

Taken as a whole, I'm satisfied with Season Five and am sad that there are no more episodes to look forward to on Sunday nights.  With only one exception, I waited until 8:00 PM EST (EDST) when the show aired on my Spectrum cable to make it feel like the old days of appointment television.  

I mentioned in an earlier post that this season added and mashed content to the degree that sometimes I felt like a non-book reader - and I didn't mind!  Goodness knows when when we'll see the next season's interpretation/extrapolation of books(s).

Possibly, we may see book nine before Season Six!

 

[GHScorpiosRule]

3 hours ago, Fallacy said:

I read the book more than a decade ago, and my memory was that Claire was gang raped. My impression while reading was that all the men took turns throughout three night. I’m shocked to read here something different. 

No, she wasn't, even though that's how Gabaldon wrote it. like @ruby24 posted, the young guy (who played Brown's nephew on the show) masturbated over Claire's dress, and then there was that other guy, who we never met on the show, who raped her while calling Claire by his wife's name; and this guy she saw years later. 

It was all so unnecessary to change it the way they did. What Claire went through in the buik was brutal enough on its face.

[ruby24]

16 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

No, she wasn't, even though that's how Gabaldon wrote it. like @ruby24 posted, the young guy (who played Brown's nephew on the show) masturbated over Claire's dress, and then there was that other guy, who we never met on the show, who raped her while calling Claire by his wife's name; and this guy she saw years later. 

It was all so unnecessary to change it the way they did. What Claire went through in the buik was brutal enough on its face.

Yeah, the more I think about this the more disturbed I am that they changed it to make it even worse, when what was in the book was bad enough. I'd like to know why they did that.

And the producers have spoken on the episode and confirmed that what the episode was implying is what we're to think happened, as opposed to what happened in the book, but I have not seen an explanation for why they wanted to make that change. 

The show rarely has changed something, some act of violence, to make it worse. I think the one other time was in Season 2 when Black Jack was in the midst of raping Fergus, when that part didn't happen in the book yet, and I wondered the same thing at the time, why they went there with that. I chalked it up to Moore's penchant for sadism, but since he stepped back, the show hasn't been as visceral in terms of sex and violence as it was in Seasons 1 and 2.

So I'm really surprised they consciously decided to have Claire be gang raped by multiple men on the show instead of doing exactly what the book did. Why?