Black Widow (2020)

[shantown]

As someone who's only seen about half the Marvel movies (and only 1 of the 3 tv shows), I probably missed a lot of history/easter eggs/etc in Black Widow, but I really enjoyed it and didn't feel like I was missing out an anything big by having missed any of the films it referenced. I thought the family dynamic was the best part of the movie, there was such a dry humor and I laughed out loud at several parts: "It still fits," "I am clearly injured," "I did a good job too." There were a lot of good action sequences but as a wimp, a few too many bone-breaking scenes for me. I really enjoyed it, even though I'm a little salty about Nat finally getting a solo movie when she's already dead in-universe. 

Agreed that Florence Pugh was the best part of this movie ("Why do you do that, with your hair? Poser.") but I thought it was a nice sendoff for Scarlett Johansson.

[Ms.Moon]

I saw this in the theatre and I loved it.  The actress that played a young Nat was amazing I I read somewhere that she is Mila Jovovich’s daughter and she was excellent casting she could really be a young Nat.  I enjoyed this since it kind of gives shape to the relationships that Nat had in this version of the MCU.  The love and devoted sibling energy that she and Clint had grew out of them both having gone through trials together and them not having any family outside each other (if they are using comics cannon for Clint).  

[Grimnar]

This will be probably unpopular opinion but this movie was just ok for me. While it is good popcorn movie, it was just average MCU movie for me which serves more like filler before Phase 4 will start. Maybe it is because I had different expectations after all the promo for this movie as it will be more spy movie, action will be more "Bourne" style, etc.

I enjoyed very much interaction between "family", which was best part of the movie and while Scarlett Jonasson put good performance, Florence Pugh definitely steal the movie for herself in my opinion. Rachel Weisz was kind of underused and I think that David Harbour enjoyed his role.

Villains were weak in this movie which in my opinion hurt the plot. Dreykov was for me very disappointing as villain(I can control/destroyed world with one click) and who as typical stupid villain told his plan and how you can defeat him to hero. I didn't have problem with identity of Taskmaster but Taskmaster as character was also let down for me.

Action scenes had sometimes too much cut for my taste  and didn't flow as good as they could. Third act had in some scenes bad CGI for Marvel movie and after watching this movie, I am little surprised that Natasha died in Endgame after jumping cliff.

Regarding after credit scene, it isn't common knowledge how Natasha died?

I have to agree with Clint that Natasha remember Budapest very differently.

Overall the movie tried to be in similar style as CA:WS but for various reasons wasn't as good. Movie came late as solo movie for Black Widow(best time was after CA:WS) and now it serves more as introduction for Yelena.

[MadyGirl1987]

I enjoyed this honestly more then I thought I would, as I am more attracted to the more comedic entry’s (Think the Spider-Man/Ant-Man films and Thor Ragnorok) or team movies(Avengers/Guardians) of the MCU and am not generally into spy movies. Really enjoyed it though, and thought the cast and story was strong.

That end credits scene definitely makes me more excited for Hawkeye if that is going to be a driving force in the series. Although I have to ask; am I the only one not upset about Black Widow dying instead of Hawkeye? I’m not glad she died, but she chose to sacrifice herself, to the point where she actually had to fight to be the one who went over. Isn’t that typical hero stuff, being willing to sacrifice yourself for others? She and Clint were both willing to go over, but only one could. Is there something I’m missing?

[scarynikki12]

8 minutes ago, MadyGirl1987 said:

She and Clint were both willing to go over, but only one could. Is there something I’m missing?

In general Black Widow has been better received than Hawkeye. I haven't read Hawkeye comics but, based on what other's have said, the MCU version doesn't seem to have much in common as far as personality which has turned a number of people off. I know others feel Renner was miscast but the main issue seems to be not letting him have his comic personality. 

[Sakura12]

I enjoyed it. It had a lot of fun action sequences. The family dynamics made the show. Since this movie should've been made way earlier, I guess I'll go with I'm glad Nat got some closure with her family and the widows before she died. 

I loved Yelena making fun of Nat's superhero pose. SJ and FP had great sibling chemistry, too bad we won't see any more of it.

So Yelena is going to be in Hawkeye, I guess that'll make me more interested in watching it. You really have to watch everything Marvel to keep up with this, the end credit scene makes more sense if you've seen the FaTWS. 

This did feel more like a Yelena origin story.

[Guest]

I just got back and I really enjoyed it. I wasn’t particularly invested in the villain or the mission but Natasha and Yelena more than made up for that. I do wish this felt more like Natasha’s story and less like Yelena’s introduction. 

1 hour ago, MadyGirl1987 said:

Although I have to ask; am I the only one not upset about Black Widow dying instead of Hawkeye? I’m not glad she died, but she chose to sacrifice herself, to the point where she actually had to fight to be the one who went over. Isn’t that typical hero stuff, being willing to sacrifice yourself for others? She and Clint were both willing to go over, but only one could. Is there something I’m missing?

My issues isn’t with her actual death but how she was brought to that situation. It was discussed a lot after Endgame so I’m just going to post this link that points out many of the issues.

How Avengers: Endgame failed Black Widow

This movie does, retroactively, improve that somewhat but it’s still bittersweet. 

Plus it still pisses me off that there was no reason whatsoever that Clint and Nat would have been the team chosen to go on that part of the mission. They were only there so that Nat could sacrifice herself and that kind of lazy writing just annoys me. 

Edited July 11, 2021 by Guest

[CailynA]

Family saw this in the theater this afternoon and our verdict is it's a solid ok movie. Not the worst, not the best but we enjoyed it. I do like Florence and think she'll be a worthy successor. 

[kiddo82]

4 hours ago, MadyGirl1987 said:

Although I have to ask; am I the only one not upset about Black Widow dying instead of Hawkeye? I’m not glad she died, but she chose to sacrifice herself, to the point where she actually had to fight to be the one who went over. Isn’t that typical hero stuff, being willing to sacrifice yourself for others? She and Clint were both willing to go over, but only one could. Is there something I’m missing?

I agree.  I wasn't happy that she died but we know that one of them had to.  I don't blame Clint for Natasha's choice.  It's not like he pushed her.

3 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I enjoyed it. It had a lot of fun action sequences. The family dynamics made the show. Since this movie should've been made way earlier, I guess I'll go with I'm glad Nat got some closure with her family and the widows before she died. 

I've seen a lot of opinions that the movie loses something in that it simply came out too late.  I can see that but I don't know if I totally agree.  One the one hand, maybe the story would have been better served if it came out sometime before Infinity War.  On the other hand, I did feel an extra layer of, I don't know, something, knowing what Natasha's overall fate would be.  I agree that seeing her get some closure for that part of her life was nice if also bittersweet.  

3 hours ago, Dani said:

I just got back and I really enjoyed it. I wasn’t particularly invested in the villain or the mission but Natasha and Yelena more than made up for that. I do wish this felt more like Natasha’s story and less like Yelena’s introduction. 

My issues isn’t with her actual death but how she was brought to that situation. It was discussed a lot after Endgame so I’m just going to post this link that points out many of the issues.

How Avengers: Endgame failed Black Widow

This movie does, retroactively, improve that somewhat but it’s still bittersweet. 

Plus it still pisses me off that there was no reason whatsoever that Clint and Nat would have been the team chosen to go on that part of the mission. They were only there so that Nat could sacrifice herself and that kind of lazy writing just annoys me. 

I've been saying for years that there is no credible way that the team would have sent the least enhanced and spacey members of the team to the outermost realms of whatever galaxy Vormir is in.  For the story purposes, it had to be them, but there was no good practical reason to send them there.  Nebula didn't give anyone a heads up? 

 

Overall I liked this movie a lot and would place it highly in my second tier.  I enjoyed the entire cast and Florence Pugh is a star and a half.  She and Scarlett Johansson nailed the sister interactions/bickering which was a head and shoulders highlight for me.  I'm damn near 40 years old and I still want my older sister's approval on some of my clothing choices.  And as a woman, I can always appreciate an article of clothing with tons of pockets!  There were also some other touches that I appreciated that should maybe be credited to Cate Shortland's direction.  One was when Natasha was changing her shirt and Yelena sees her bruises.  It wasn't shot in a way to titillate.  Nothing was really.  The other was, and I can't be sure of this, but I think that when Yelena took the syringe out of her neck and put it on the surgical instrument tray, she puts it next to a speculum.  The imagery of that says so much without saying anything at all.  I may have had a physical reaction to that. 

I've seen some comments that the movie is low stakes on the heels of End Game.  Objectively, that's not wrong, but not everything has to be on the level of save the universe.  I actually liked the intimacy of it given that this was Natasha's swan song.  Again, seeing her get that closure on something so personal like the Red Room was a good way to go out.  Speaking of intimacy, another highlight was the fight between Nat and Yelena.  Very cool, old school Bond, in the trenches fight.  No big set pieces.  Just smash and choke each other with whatever happens to be around.  It reminded me of when Buffy used to fight Faith on Buffy the Vampire Slayer and they were so evenly matched and they would just go at each other. 

I thought we would get more of Nat's red in her ledger but I guess knowingly "killing" a little girl as collateral damage is enough.  Upon reflection, it's fitting that she had to come to terms with something she did when she was practically already turned as opposed to when she was under control.  This was something she did of her own free will and simply can't be hand waived away.   It's not a perfect film, and some scenes did feel like a backdoor origin story for Yelena, but I thought it was a fitting goodbye to a character that I really enjoy.  

[Cerulean]

I assumed Natasha was just another alias.

If you are called the same fake name all the way from childhood, I’m pretty sure that makes it a real name. 

[Spartan Girl]

18 hours ago, Dani said:

I just got back and I really enjoyed it. I wasn’t particularly invested in the villain or the mission but Natasha and Yelena more than made up for that. I do wish this felt more like Natasha’s story and less like Yelena’s introduction. 

My issues isn’t with her actual death but how she was brought to that situation. It was discussed a lot after Endgame so I’m just going to post this link that points out many of the issues.

How Avengers: Endgame failed Black Widow

This movie does, retroactively, improve that somewhat but it’s still bittersweet. 

Plus it still pisses me off that there was no reason whatsoever that Clint and Nat would have been the team chosen to go on that part of the mission. They were only there so that Nat could sacrifice herself and that kind of lazy writing just annoys me. 

I agree. Maybe I’m still salty about FATWS,  but I feel with Marvel female characters, it’s always one step forward (Captain Marvel, Valkyrie, the women of Black Panther, WandaVision) and two steps back (fridging Gamora, reducing Peggy to Steve’s trophy, turning Sharon Carter into a villain after years of sidelining so she couldn’t steal Nat’s thunder). Killing off Natasha and leaving her out of the final battle was a huge step back.

That’s why despite all the movie’s good moments, it feels kind of hollow. They could have done it years ago so it wouldn’t have had the underlining “We killed her off, but we’re finally giving her a solo movie!” And I’m not even a Black Widow (or ScarJo) fan.

I agree with everyone that it was a better intro for Yelena. Florence Pugh is someone who actually earns her hype. And Harbour and Weisz were fantastic. 

Edited July 11, 2021 by Spartan Girl

[cambridgeguy]

 

8 hours ago, kiddo82 said:

Nebula didn't give anyone a heads up? 

She did tell everyone that Thanos went there with Gamora and came back without her, so it's possible (even likely) that Nat was able to connect the dots even if some of the others didn't.  She seemed to be the leader of the Avengers at that point, so you can always retcon the pairings as her idea rather than random chance.  Although given what we know from the Loki show maybe every other combo was pruned.

 

[paigow]

14 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

So Yelena is going to be in Hawkeye,

Barton is the only sanctioned target... odds are that she succeeds in killing him but intentionally leaves his Jedi apprentices alive...

[Anduin]

Despite my better judgement, I watched it. And I was right the first time. Terrible! A cheap knockoff of Winter Soldier that made the same mistake at the end by going way too big. I also found the attempts to whitewash the actions of Alexei and Melina rang false. Oh, they participated in the program. But there were reasons, okay? They aren't really bad people, look how evil Dreykov is by comparison! Soon after they were introduced, I wanted them to die. By the end, I still felt that way.

When Natasha was introduced back in Iron Man 2, did she know the Red Room was still active? If not, when did she find out? I get that this movie is after Civil War, but why didn't she round up her friends to go after it before then?

The one moment I liked was when she fell off the building and hit all the air ducts on the way down. At the bottom, she was still mobile. A good example of how tough proper superheroes are compared to regular people.

Weird moment. Of all the Bond movies to watch, Moonraker? I watched it recently myself. Not one of the better ones. I suppose it was to hint at the enemy lair hidden above, rather than on the ground.

All in all, there are better female-fronted action movies out there. Terminator 1 & 2. Aliens. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Resident Evil 1. The Force Awakens. Mad Max: Fury Road.

[tv echo]

‘Black Widow’ Spins $39.5M Friday, Pandemic Opening Record Now At $89M+; All Pics At Weekend B.O. Headed To $125M+ High – Saturday AM Update
By Anthony D'Alessandro  July 10, 2021
https://deadline.com/2021/07/black-widow-opening-weekend-box-office-1234789473/ 

Quote

SATURDAY AM UPDATE: Disney/Marvel’s Black Widow is coming in at $39.5M for Friday, which is very close to what we first spotted yesterday. This puts the Scarlett Johansson movie at a projected 3-day start of $89M, still the best domestic opening we’ve seen during the pandemic.
*  *  *
Black Widow‘s audience reactions are an A- CinemaScore –Marvel movies typically get a solid A — and the Screen Engine/Comscore PostTrak exits are 88% positive, with a 69% recommend for the general audience. Kids under 12 gave the pic an 86% positive, and a 66% recommend.

Florence Pugh pushed for Black Widow’s ‘involuntary hysterectomy’ clapback after reading the original script
By Matt Patches  Jul 10, 2021
https://www.polygon.com/movies/22559604/florence-pugh-black-widow-involuntary-hysterectomy-red-room 

Quote

Black Widow doesn’t flinch when confronting the grislier aspects of Natasha Romanoff’s past. Conscripted into training in the Red Room, forced to enact violence in the name of Russia, and then her own episode of vengeance alongside Clint Barton on the infamous Budapest mission ... it’s all pretty bleak. Which is why director Cate Shortland wanted to turn Black Widow into one of the funnier chapters in the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

“What we tried to do was use humor to talk to the trauma,” she tells Polygon. “Most people in this film who’ve been victimized, are actually making jokes about that because they’re trying to overcome it.”

There’s no better example of Shortland’s approach than a moment in Black Widow in which Florence Pugh, as Yelena, reminds her surrogate father Alexi (David Harbour) of one particular horror of the Red Room. Here’s how it plays out:

Alexi: Why the aggression, huh? Is it your time of the month?
Yelena: I don’t get my period dipshit. I don’t have a uterus.
Natasha: Or ovaries.
Yelena: That’s what happens when the Red Room gives you an involuntarily hysterectomy. They kinda just go in and rip out all your reproductive organs. They just get right in there and chop them all away. So you can’t have babies.
Alexi: OK, OK, you don’t have to get so clinical and nasty!
Yelena: I was just going to talk about fallopian tubes…
*  *  *
According to Shortland, Pugh’s clapback wasn’t actually in the script for Black Widow. In development for years, the final film’s story is credited to Jac Schaeffer (WandaVision) and Ned Benson (The Disappearance of Eleanor Rigby) with a script by Eric Pearson. After entering Marvel’s screenwriting program in 2010, Pearson went on to write One-Shots in the early Phase 1 days, and has become a go-to source of rewrites for the studio, with a co-writing credit on Thor: Ragnarok.

“So Eric, who is our writer, had written a joke about women being in bad moods because they have their period,” Shortland recalls. “And I remember Florence and Scarlet and I reading it and just being like, ‘Oh, my God, this is ridiculous.’”

The director says she almost cut the joke entirely, but after discussing with her actors, ultimately decided to “answer it.” She didn’t clarify if that meant improvising on the day of or going back for traditional rewrites, but the outcome was the final digression on involuntary hysterectomies.

“I love it,” Shortland says. “Because it’s like, if you’re gonna make that joke, I’m gonna unleash Florence Pugh on you. She’s gonna Yelena you. It’s one of my favorite moments in the film.”

David Harbour says it was his idea to use the song 'American Pie' in 'Black Widow' because his big scene with Florence Pugh needed to be 'more profound'
Jason Guerrasio    July 10, 2021
https://www.insider.com/black-widow-david-harbour-suggested-american-pie-song-2021-7 

Quote

As Belova sits alone in Vostokoff's bedroom, Shostakov enters and tries to connect with her. Then she lets him have it. She tells him that though she idolized him as a child, she's now disgusted to learn that he only thought of her as a burden when they all acted like a real family back in America.

However, Shostakov finally gets through to her when he begins to sing the lyrics to the classic Don McLean song, "American Pie." It's the music Belova wants played when she, as a young child, and her family flee America at the start of the movie.

But Harbour told Insider that originally, the scene was different — and the movie didn't feature the McLean song at all.
*  *  *
"My character is fumbling trying to be a father and in the end he fails. She tells him to get out. In the script, he says something and leaves," Harbour recalled. "I felt, there's gotta be something a little more profound."
*  *  *
"I said, 'Wouldn't it be interesting if back in America when [Belova] was little and was terrified having been taken from her family the Red Guardian would put her in the car and drive around and play 'American Pie'?" Harbour said. "So from then on she tells daddy to put in the tape."

Bringing it forward to the bedroom scene, Harbour felt that would be a better ending for the scene: Red Guardian finally connecting with Belova through that old song.

"He's a failure as a father, what can he do at the end of this scene? This narcissist who also has a big heart," Harbour said. "And so he brings up the song, basically as him saying, 'I tried.'"

The script was rewritten so "American Pie" would be what connects Belova and Shostakov, and ultimately, that bedroom scene is one of the most heartfelt moments of the movie.

Run | Marvel Studios’ Black Widow
Marvel Entertainment   Jul 10, 2021

 

Edited July 11, 2021 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Black Widow comments from Part 1 of a two-part interview with Kevin Feige (recently conducted by Rotten Tomatoes)...

Kevin Feige Breaks Down the MCU’s Phase 4 – Part 1: ‘WandaVision,’ ‘Falcon,’ ‘Loki' & ‘Black Widow’
Rotten Tomatoes   Jul 8, 2021
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uw8Dbk-SLmk

-- Kevin Feige: "Scarlett Johansson is just the perfect representation of - of an amazing, amazing actor lending their talents to our stories for a decade. That is an amazing privilege and one that we don't - that we don't ever take for granted... She was nominated for two Academy Awards in one year a few years ago. She is spectacular and could do whatever she wants. That she chooses, um, to continue to work and to bring Natasha Romanoff to life is a - is a testament, I think, to the character of Natasha and how rich she is in the comics and how much more there was to explore, and a testament to Scarlett, who likes bringing these complex characters to life. So it really is kind of the - a perfect representation of - of when you find a perfect actor willing to dedicate their talents to an amazing character from publishing that you can go - you can go 10 years on and be on the verge of their first standalone movie and, thankfully, our first movie in a theater in almost two years... I just can't wait for people to see in a, uh, in a theater - or Disney+, if they want - but to get out there and see what Scarlett and the entire team has done."

-- Kevin Feige: "Florence [Pugh] is amazing and came in and won the part of Yelena. Yelena is a character that's been in the comics for many years now and a character that we'd wanted to bring to the screen for quite a while. Uh, soon after we cast her, I think, she was nominated for Little Women, which was amazing. And again, like Scarlett, being able to traverse these worlds of ... you know, classic literature like Little Women and moving over to what we consider classic literature of, uh, of the Marvel comics, and do both with equal importance and with equal pouring of their heart and soul into it. ... Florence did that tremendously well and, like some of the other characters we've talked about today, yes, the very first question that often comes out of people seeing Black Widow for the first time is, 'when will Florence Pugh show up again in the MCU?' And my answer to that is - is always, 'not soon enough,' because she's amazing."

-- Kevin Feige: "Another testament to Scarlett, um, who - who knew exactly the movie that we were making, who was a part of the development of the movie, to make that film an ensemble and to surround herself with new - with new characters portrayed by new actors entering the MCU, and allowing them all to shine, and knowing that lifting them up lifts up the whole movie, which is what a smart producer does, which Scarlett is. Um, so it is great. So every compliment that Florence or David or Rachel or O.T. get on the movie, um, I also turn back to Scarlett for being, uh, for being so smart to - to, um, allow the film to be - to be a showcase for multiple characters, which is what the best of our films can do."

Edited July 11, 2021 by tv echo

[Cerulean]

It occurs to me, having now watched The Falcon and the Winter Soldier “out of order”, that I don’t know if they intended for Alexei to be lying or telling the truth about fighting Captain America in the 80s. 
 

Given that he asked Natasha if he has been mentioned, I’m assuming he was telling the truth. Though it probably wasn’t Isaiah, either, or he probably would have mentioned that to Sam. 

Edited July 11, 2021 by Cerulean

[Grimnar]

1 hour ago, Cerulean said:

It occurs to me, having now watched The Falcon and the Winter Soldier “out of order”, that I don’t know if they intended for Alexei to be lying or telling the truth about fighting Captain America in the 80s. 
 

Given that he asked Natasha if he has been mentioned, I’m assuming he was telling the truth. Though it probably wasn’t Isaiah, either, or he probably would have mentioned that to Sam. 

I think it was inteded that Alexei was lying as he got pissed when the prisoner reminded that Captain America was in ice in 80s.

Natasha knew only Steve as Captain so it wouldn't make much sense if he would meant someone else.

I think it was little strange that Alexei had such fixation on Steve because Alexei was injected after Steve was under ice and then was in prison when he was found.

[calliope1975]

15 hours ago, kiddo82 said:

The other was, and I can't be sure of this, but I think that when Yelena took the syringe out of her neck and put it on the surgical instrument tray, she puts it next to a speculum.  The imagery of that says so much without saying anything at all.  I may have had a physical reaction to that. 

I thought it was forceps but looking at pictures of forceps, that's not right. Whatever it was, I had the same reaction.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

On 7/9/2021 at 1:45 AM, calliope1975 said:

 I see you, Val, building your Antimatter Avengers. Wonder who she'll snag next.

Show of hands for who thinks Val has ulterior motives in sending Yelena after Clint. The easiest way to get her to comply is to tell her Barton's responsible for her sister's death, but there has to be more to it than that, because we know that's not what happened. The Countess should probably be careful. Yelena's unlikely to have much sense of humor if this is some kind of plot.

Edited July 12, 2021 by Cobalt Stargazer

[paigow]

Alexi & Isaiah were similarly betrayed by their respective handlers- obviously for different reasons- but unfairly treated nonetheless.

[Lantern7]

Saw this today. Missed the first few minutes. Thankfully, I got it before the opening credits. Soft version of “Smells Like Teen Spirit”? I thought all the Nineties hits were used up after Captain Marvel.

Bad news for me . . . the Disney+ stuff is starting to play into continuity, and I don’t subscribe. I did know Julia Louis-Dreyfus was in TFSTWS, so I wasn’t too lost. I can imagine others getting thrown.

”This is your next target. We declare him . . . spongeworthy.” “That is new one. What does that mean?” “Whack him. Whack him good. Do not even make it look like accident.”

Once again, I don’t watch the streaming stuff. Does Valentina know what happened in Endgame? Or is she going to make shit up in order to justify Yelena doing the Hawkeye series? Either way, she’s pretty shitty. Of course, if she winds up killing Gen. Ross, I’m willing to bet she’ll get so many fans.

Good movie. It’s a pity we got the movie after Natasha’s death. On the plus side, we got Yelena as worth successor. Also, we get a new insane big guy in Alexi. He was fun to watch. Did he fight A Captain America? Was that covered in TFATWS? Or was he lying out of his sizable ass?

[Darlin]

Quick thoughts: Watched the movie on Disney+ and really, really enjoyed it.  I have watched most of the MCU movies and all of the Disney+ streaming shows, and I'm embarrassed to say I never heard of Red Guardian or Yelena.  But I really liked those characters in Black Widow and look forward to seeing more of them in other features.  Black Widow/Natasha was always one of my favorite MCU characters.  I'm still bothered by the fact that she's dead, LOL.  I know there were other issues at play that prevented a Black Widow movie from coming out years ago but it's a real shame a movie about Black Widow didn't come prior to Infinity War. Seems like a lost opportunity that this movie didn't quite make up for.

[cambridgeguy]

48 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

Bad news for me . . . the Disney+ stuff is starting to play into continuity, and I don’t subscribe. I did know Julia Louis-Dreyfus was in TFSTWS, so I wasn’t too lost. I can imagine others getting thrown.

Not really, the original plan was for her to show up here first and then be the big surprise guest in Falcon/Winter Solider.  Any non Disney+ TV viewer is seeing it as intended. 

[Kel Varnsen]

Watched it on D+ with my kids and it was a lot of fun. Yelena is a great addition to the MCU.

I think my favourite little thing was how Shield agent Natasha blew up a building just to try to take out one guy, and nearly killed his daughter in the process. I always like reminders that Shield (even the "good" people in Shield) were probably up to some super sketchy shit what with Fury being their leader and it being a US based intelligence agency 

Also how big was the world of Russian super person intelligence when one group had a freaking helicarrier and their own super soldier, but that group (at least Natasha) never really knew The Winter Solider.

[paigow]

2 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Also how big was the world of Russian super person intelligence when one group had a freaking helicarrier and their own super soldier, but that group (at least Natasha) never really knew The Winter Solider.

The OG HYDRA Winter Soldier group moved to the US..  Dreykov and the Red Guardian seemed like a KGB project based on the assumption that Barnes was dead. [Nat found the research reports about Bucky]

[TrininisaScorp]

I'm def on the train of "I wish this came out closer post-Civil War".  I think that would have been the perfect time to really appreciate the depth of Natasha's choices in that movie and moving into this one.  I know it would lose something without the punch end credit scene, but I feel like it would have been a more deserving entry for Widow, and give Scarlett more interesting things to do before we ran into IW.  

I thought it was good, but not great.  Strong parts for me - I so appreciated the female gaze component. I don't know that I fully understood what that meant until I got the Patty Jenkins vs. Whedon/Snyder versions of Wonder Woman.  That stands true here too (and I feel like I see that so dramatically in the MCU tv shows, like Loki...much needed).   Many of the things mentioned here, like the changing clothes without the sexual component or the syringe next to the speculum, and, of course, the GD pockets, were familiar and almost normal.  I also loved the family dynamic.  Yelena is excellent, and Pugh was a real standout.  I don't know that people give ScarJo enough credit for her chemistry with people - Renner, Evans, Pugh.  I loved the sister dynamic.  Harbour looked like he was having a good time (but, in fairness, much of his pieces fell a bit flat for me), and I could have done with more Weisz...she's so great.  I SO loved the highlight of the serious moral question of girls/women as transactional, almost disposable to some entities. That important undercurrent is never truly given a fair dynamic (from Gamora to Nebula to Jane Foster to Sharon Carter) in the MCU on how women get screwed around by the power structures.  

Taskmaster is a tough one. I know people were really looking forward to Tony Masters and that whole thing. I actually was fine with the change, but it wasn't all that interesting.  Draykov's daughter goes back to that dynamic interrogation scene between Loki and Widow in The Avengers.  I struggled with the accountability piece of blowing up what was a child who had done nothing.  That said, I enjoyed picking apart the fight styles that Taskmaster brought to the table (the Winter Solider and Black Panther styles in particular was nicely done); I've been waiting to see that. 

Where I struggled the most was the scripting and redux of TWS - The script wasn't great.  The actor made good out of okay, IMO.  The pacing and story felt too close to TWS and less well executed in that regard. 

Endgame was actually on tonight while I was flipping and I rewatched a good portion of it.  Knowing some of what we know and Nat having "family" would have made an already excruciating scene that much more of a punch (I walked into the theater all those years ago completed unspoiled, so I guessed we would lose Tony or Cap, but didn't expect Natasha and was gutted). There was so much disservice done to Natasha here...the unfair assumption that she was an okay sacrifice b/c, unlike Clint, she had no one except the Avengers.  

For me, Loki has been the epitome the tv shows being wonderful, weird side roads leading to the main road.  But, I wasn't super excited for Hawkeye, but dang if it all didn't just get a little more interesting. 

I'll miss ScarJo, but this was a respectable send-off. 

Edited July 12, 2021 by TrininisaScorp

[tv echo]

Very good opening weekend box office, considering the home streaming option and the pandemic...

Box Office: Marvel’s ‘Black Widow’ Debuts With Dazzling $80 Million in Theaters, $60 Million on Disney Plus
By Rebecca Rubin   July 11, 2021
https://variety.com/2021/film/box-office/marvel-black-widow-box-office-opening-weekend-1235016977/ 

Quote

Disney and Marvel’s superhero adventure “Black Widow” captured a massive $80 million in its first weekend, crushing the benchmark for the biggest box office debut since the pandemic.

The film, starring Scarlett Johansson, is the first from the Marvel Cinematic Universe to open simultaneously in movie theaters and on Disney Plus, where subscribers can rent “Black Widow” for an extra $30. Disney reported that “Black Widow” generated more than $60 million “in Disney Plus Premier Access consumer spend globally,” marking the rare occasion in which a studio disclosed the profits made from streaming.

Directed by Cate Shortland, “Black Widow” collected an additional $78 million from 46 international territories, boosting its global box office haul to an impressive $158 million. Combined with Disney Plus numbers, the final weekend figure sits at $215 million. Curbing overall ticket sales, however, is the fact that “Black Widow” still doesn’t have a release date in China, which is an all-important moviegoing market for the Marvel franchise.
*  *  *
“‘Black Widow’s’ strong performance this weekend affirms our flexible distribution strategy of making franchise films available in theaters for a true cinematic experience and, as COVID concerns continue globally, providing choice to consumers who prefer to watch at home on Disney Plus.”

“Black Widow” marks a massive win for movie theaters, which have been struggling to recover from the mass closures and capacity restrictions that decimated their business during the pandemic. It’s also notable because it displays that movies can bring in solid box office receipts despite being available on streaming services at the same time. However, David A. Gross, who runs the movie consulting firm Franchise Entertainment Research, notes that Marvel movies are in a league of its own at the box office. Not every new release has the built-in fanbase needed to replicate those results. In total, the 24 films that populate the commercially unrivaled Marvel Cinematic Universe have brought in $22 billion theatrically since 2008.

“Certainly the figure would be higher if every theater were open, if there were zero concern with COVID, and if there weren’t a streaming option,” Gross says. “For now, those impediments make ‘Black Widow’s’ opening all the more impressive.”

All Films At Weekend Domestic Box Office Hit $117M, Led By ‘Black Widow’; Highest Level Since Presidents’ Day 2020
By Anthony D'Alessandro   July 11, 2021
https://deadline.com/2021/07/total-weekend-domestic-box-pandemic-record-all-movies-black-widow-1234790414/ 

Quote

For the first time since the pandemic hit in mid-March 2020, the total domestic box office has finally exceeded $100M over three days. Yes, thanks in part to Disney’s release of the long-awaited Marvel title Black Widow.
*  *  *
There was no question that Black Widow would post the biggest opening for the pandemic at $80M (to date). However, the Disney+ Premier aspect (which is reportedly $60M global, and anywhere north of $20M stateside as Disney claimed a $100M consumer spend victory) clearly cut into box office monies, as evident in the pic’s huge -41% drop between Friday and Saturday. That was a greater plunge than Marvel’s Ant-Man and the Wasp over its first two days (plus Thursday previews) (-30%), other Marvel origin movies (Captain Marvel -14%, Ant-Man -14%, Black Panther -13% and Doctor Strange -3.7%) and recent summer theatrical windowed movies A Quiet Place Part II (-22%) and F9 (-25%). Exhibition could have shared more in the upside of Black Widow, but that PVOD cash is clearly in Disney’s hands.
*  *  *
The 2021 box office for the period of Jan. 1-July 11 is now running only 30% behind 2020 with $1.32 billion. This weekend repped a +70% spike over last weekend, but was 8% behind the same second weekend frame in July 2019 ($126.9M). Those in exhibition tell me that the domestic box office will fully be back to normal once we’re beating comparable 2019 weekend levels.

Choose | Marvel Studios’ Black Widow
Marvel Entertainment    Jul 11, 2021

 

Edited July 12, 2021 by tv echo

[Kel Varnsen]

9 hours ago, paigow said:

The OG HYDRA Winter Soldier group moved to the US..  Dreykov and the Red Guardian seemed like a KGB project based on the assumption that Barnes was dead. [Nat found the research reports about Bucky]

Is that something the movies said or is that your own interpretation? It just seemed weird that the RG was talking about how he was Russia's super soldier when they also had Bucky. But I could see how maybe the fall of the USSR might have led to Hydra bailing out of Russia. Although it is also interesting that Russia perfected making super soldiers between whenever those Siberia flash back scene in Civil War took place and 1995.

[paigow]

Technically, Agent Carter is not MCU canon, but Zola is shown espousing the advantage of moving HYDRA operations to America- decades before the USSR collapsed.

Edited July 12, 2021 by paigow

[aghst]

I keep seeing the commercials which shows the BW hanging onto something while in free fall and she's looking to fight someone.

I heard the scene described, she gives her parachute or whatever to her sister and decide to fight some big bad.

We seen this in one of the Star Trek movies and some other movies as well.

I would think the first instinct when you find yourself falling to a possible grisly death is to find a way to avoid the fate.  Or be scared witless since that is the instinct most living things would have.

But she's spoiling for a fight?

These screenwriters man.  It looks dramatic so they keep going to this trope.  Two mortal enemies headed to death but they're going to try to kill each other first.  Of course the good guy or girl wins and also survives.🙄

[anna0852]

I really wish that this had been released after Civil War. It it would have made much more of an impact especially heading into Infinity War and Endgame.

 That being said, I nearly burst into tears sitting in a movie theater and seeing that beautiful MCU intro come up on the screen. I'm thrilled to have our troublemakers back in any capacity.

Seeing her upbringing and background makes me think Nat had to really work to be as functional as she is.

Edited July 12, 2021 by anna0852

[VCRTracking]

When people wonder how the MCU movies got so popular it's because of scenes like the family dinner with Florence Pugh BRINGING it.  

[paigow]

59 minutes ago, aghst said:

I keep seeing the commercials which shows the BW hanging onto something while in free fall and she's looking to fight someone.

Natasha guessed / hoped that Taskmaster was wearing a parachute

[AimingforYoko]

2 hours ago, paigow said:

Technically, Agent Carter is not MCU canon

Mr. Edwin Jarvis says hello.

[anna0852]

25 minutes ago, AimingforYoko said:

Mr. Edwin Jarvis says hello.

Thank you!!!!

[Ohiopirate02]

On 7/10/2021 at 6:16 PM, MadyGirl1987 said:

That end credits scene definitely makes me more excited for Hawkeye if that is going to be a driving force in the series. Although I have to ask; am I the only one not upset about Black Widow dying instead of Hawkeye? I’m not glad she died, but she chose to sacrifice herself, to the point where she actually had to fight to be the one who went over. Isn’t that typical hero stuff, being willing to sacrifice yourself for others? She and Clint were both willing to go over, but only one could. Is there something I’m missing?

I was not a fan of the way Natasha died in Endgame, not that she chose to sacrifice herself.  It's a writing and directing issue.  There should have been actual dialogue with both Natasha and Clint giving their reason why it should be her/him, not an action sequence IMHO.  The movie also took Clint to a dark place and never really acknowledged it or resolve it.  Natasha may have had red in her ledger she needed to wipe away, but so did Clint.  

 

On 7/10/2021 at 6:28 PM, scarynikki12 said:

In general Black Widow has been better received than Hawkeye. I haven't read Hawkeye comics but, based on what other's have said, the MCU version doesn't seem to have much in common as far as personality which has turned a number of people off. I know others feel Renner was miscast but the main issue seems to be not letting him have his comic personality. 

I had no desire to watch the Disney+ Hawkeye show before the end scene.  With Yelena in the mix, I may just have to check it out.  For me, watching Jeremy Renner in a starring role is like watching paint dry.  

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, AimingforYoko said:

Mr. Edwin Jarvis says hello.

Variant, obviously.

16 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

The movie also took Clint to a dark place and never really acknowledged it or resolve it.  Natasha may have had red in her ledger she needed to wipe away, but so did Clint. 

If Shield sanctioned missions involve blowing up buildings with kids in them and calling it coletaral damage just to get one evil guy, then I would say every Shield agent, has red in their ledger, even the non-Hydra ones. And now I wish I had seen those kind of Agents on AoS, not the watered down version we got.

[Minneapple]

Saw this yesterday in the theater (our first theater outing since last February or so) and really enjoyed it. The Avengers Easter eggs, the found family themes. All of the actors worked really well together. It did make my heart break just a little bit (okay, a lot) knowing what happens in Endgame. Aw, Nat.

The post-credits scene did a really great job making people actually care about Hawkeye, didn't it?

[Guest]

4 hours ago, aghst said:

I keep seeing the commercials which shows the BW hanging onto something while in free fall and she's looking to fight someone.

I heard the scene described, she gives her parachute or whatever to her sister and decide to fight some big bad.

We seen this in one of the Star Trek movies and some other movies as well.

I would think the first instinct when you find yourself falling to a possible grisly death is to find a way to avoid the fate.  Or be scared witless since that is the instinct most living things would have.

But she's spoiling for a fight?

These screenwriters man.  It looks dramatic so they keep going to this trope.  Two mortal enemies headed to death but they're going to try to kill each other first.  Of course the good guy or girl wins and also survives.🙄

In that scene Nat isn’t the one looking for a fight. She realizes Taskmaster is coming to fight her and let’s go of Yelena to protect her. Nat really did not want to fight Taskmaster at that point. Taskmaster also didn’t have any free will in that situation. It was basically a complete retread of the Steve and Bucky fight in Winter Soldier as the helicarriers are falling. 

[AimingforYoko]

2 hours ago, Minneapple said:

The post-credits scene did a really great job making people actually care about Hawkeye, didn't it?

I cared about Hawkeye, but not for (OG)Hawkeye. I was in for Kate Bishop and Pizza Dog. Yelena is just a very rich icing for that cake.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

5 hours ago, anna0852 said:

Seeing her upbringing and background makes me think Nat had to really work to be as functional as she is.

And Alexei just. didn't. get. it. With her or Yelena. He's standing there like a dumbass congratulating them on how many deaths they're responsible for, and you can just feel the shame and the hurt rolling off of her. Yelena's not there yet, I don't think. She's never had any other life than being a Widow, or she wouldn't be freelancing or whatever it is she's gotten into with Val. Even being technically free from her life as an assassin, she doesn't have anything else right now.

Re the questions about the "new Red Room program. Yelena told Natasha that what she went through was psychological conditioning, which was completely different than how the other Widows were indoctrinated. I took it to mean that Dreykov had done some improvements, similar to Nagel refining the super soldier serum. He wanted unbreakable control, and the only reason Yelena got free at all is because the woman she stabbed in the beginning of the movie exposed her to the counter-agent.

5 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

When people wonder how the MCU movies got so popular it's because of scenes like the family dinner with Florence Pugh BRINGING it.  

She really did. As far as Yelena knew, she'd been abandoned by everyone; her 'parents' and Natasha, and the thing with Natasha had to be worse for her because Nat sort of became a celebrity just by falling in with the Avengers. A bloody ledger or not, her sister got away and never looked for her or tried to help. Even if Natasha really did think she destroyed the Red Room, her bigger regret was clearly not trying harder to locate the younger version of herself. I don't think it was until Yelena saw the bruises on Nat's back that it started to dawn on her that the 'glamorous' life she was living could be just as rough as the one she was still stuck in.

[tv echo]

Back | Marvel Studios’ Black Widow
Marvel Entertainment   Jul 12, 2021

BLACK WIDOW Director Cate Shortland Reveals Why Natasha Romanoff Didn't Receive A Funeral Like Iron Man
Josh Wilding   July 12, 2021
https://www.comicbookmovie.com/black_widow/black-widow-director-cate-shortland-reveals-why-natasha-romanoff-didnt-receive-a-funeral-like-iron-man-a186334#gs.5oz1ot 

Quote

In Black Widow's post-credits scene [SPOILER WARNING], we learn that the hero has been buried in the American Midwest, but we never actually got to see a funeral for the fallen Avenger.

Talking to Variety, Black Widow director Cate Shortland addressed that head-on, saying: "Scarlett talked to me about it: Her character would have hated a public funeral. So I felt like the fact that she’s buried in a really private place, in the boondocks somewhere, is perfect."

"I know the reaction that fans had to Scarlett’s death," Shortland continued. "The fact that we got to see that moment between her and her sister, it means that to me, she is eternal, you know?"

Black Widow director reveals why a rumored cameo does not show up
By Jack Shepherd   July 9, 2021
https://www.gamesradar.com/black-widow-iron-man-cameo-cate-shortland/ 

Quote

Alright, so before Black Widow was released, there were multiple rumors swirling that Iron Man would make an appearance. The reports stemmed from a seemingly off-the-cuff mention in the trade magazine Deadine, with speculators hoping to see potentially cut footage from Captain America: Civil War in the new movie.

That would certainly make sense from a timeline standpoint, as Black Widow takes place concurrently with Civil War and before Avengers: Infinity War. However, director Cate Shortland and producer Kevin Feige decided against including any of the other major Marvel superheroes.

"Initially, there was discussions about everything, about all of the different characters," she tells GamesRadar+ and Total Film. "What we decided was, and I think Kevin was really great, he said, 'She doesn't need the boys.' We didn't want it to feel like she needs the support. We want her to stand alone. And she does."

 

 

ETA: I posted in the MCU thread here a recent BBC Radio 1 interview with Scarlett Johansson, in which she talked about getting cast in Iron Man 2 (she got the role after Emily Blunt backed out due to a scheduling conflict with another movie), learning that her character would die (she got a call from Kevin Feige), and how her final scene in Endgame was completely changed from what was originally scripted (they first shot a battle on Vormir with Thanos' army while Nat and Clint struggled to get to the cliff edge, but the Russos changed their mind and they reshot the scene to what we saw in the finished movie).
 

Edited July 12, 2021 by tv echo

[Minneapple]

I'm halfway glad and halfway sad that there were no big cameos in this movie. Halfway sad because I would have cried with joy to see another Avenger. Halfway glad because yeah, Widow needed her own movie. As in her own, not one that was helped along by Cap or Tony in which the Big Cameo or cut Civil War footage was all anybody could talk about.

[Raja]

On 7/9/2021 at 3:23 PM, AimingforYoko said:

Me, after the end-credit scene: Gee, what the hell did Clint do....Oh. Right. Gee, you think helping bring everybody back would get you a pass on the whole five-year killing spree.

I think it was a little unfortunate that Scarlett did the fourth best job in her "family" (Pugh, Harbour, Weisz, Johansson), but I enjoyed this quite a bit. Did they need the big third act set piece? No, but it didn't lessen the overall for me.

It could have gone back further he did order the bombing of a building with any collateral damage that might occur after Natasha confirmed the target was inside 

[Jazzy24]

I really really loved this movie. Scarlett/Natasha has always been a favorite of mine and it was such a great send off. 
 

The beginning credits were creepy and reminded me of human trafficking. All those young girls(ugh, I can’t) 

But the family dynamic was the best. Yelena is everything and I’m excited for her to take over the Black Widow mantle. I hope Feige green lights two more Black Widow movies for Florence/Yelena. 

I loved all the actors, the action, just everything. I’m still sad to see Scarlett/Natasha go but I’ve had about 11yrs and multiple movies with her and I’m glad I got that. 

[Kel Varnsen]

11 minutes ago, Jazzy24 said:

I hope Feige green lights two more Black Widow movies for Florence/Yelena. 

I hope so too. It would be a shame if she just got stuck in the Hawkeye show. A movie with her and her "parents" rescuing the other widows would be great. Plus she needs to meet Nick Fury. And I am not even sure I care what they talk about, because even small talk between those two could be awesome.

[Raja]

9 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Variant, obviously.

If Shield sanctioned missions involve blowing up buildings with kids in them and calling it coletaral damage just to get one evil guy, then I would say every Shield agent, has red in their ledger, even the non-Hydra ones. And now I wish I had seen those kind of Agents on AoS, not the watered down version we got.

👍

I have said the same thing since The Winter Soldier, Hydra and S.H.I.E.L.D. recruited from the same source and even before the Hydra reveal they had shown AoS "mission specialist as basically license to kill types.  And after the reveal had Skye "cross someone off" as part of her training to be an agent

[Kel Varnsen]

5 minutes ago, Raja said:

👍

I have said the same thing since The Winter Soldier, Hydra and S.H.I.E.L.D. recruited from the same source and even before the Hydra reveal they had shown AoS "mission specialist as basically license to kill types.  And after the reveal had Skye "cross someone off" as part of her training to be an agent

Winter Soldier is still my favourite Marvel movie, and one little thing about it I love, is how  Fury hired the mercenaries to hijack the ship knowing that some of them would be killed by Cap/Natasha/Rumlow. So he basically sets them up to die and doesn't think twice about it. I mean it is terrible, but that is totally the kind of shit I would expect from an organization like Shield and and ends justify the means guy like Fury. So it was super interesting to see that they were up to more of that in Budapest.

[stealinghome]

On 7/10/2021 at 12:41 PM, Grimnar said:

This will be probably unpopular opinion but this movie was just ok for me. While it is good popcorn movie, it was just average MCU movie for me which serves more like filler before Phase 4 will start. Maybe it is because I had different expectations after all the promo for this movie as it will be more spy movie, action will be more "Bourne" style, etc.
…

Rachel Weisz was kind of underused and I think that David Harbour enjoyed his role.

Villains were weak in this movie which in my opinion hurt the plot. Dreykov was for me very disappointing as villain(I can control/destroyed world with one click) and who as typical stupid villain told his plan and how you can defeat him to hero. I didn't have problem with identity of Taskmaster but Taskmaster as character was also let down for me.
…

Overall the movie tried to be in similar style as CA:WS but for various reasons wasn't as good. Movie came late as solo movie for Black Widow(best time was after CA:WS) and now it serves more as introduction for Yelena.

I agree with all these points. I just got back from seeing the movie (my first since the pandemic!!!) and I thought it was solid but not great; I had higher hopes for the only Natasha movie we’ll likely get, though I appreciate she at least got this as a swan song—much better than the awful end they gave Nat in Endgame. I also agree that this movie took too much inspiration from CA:TWS (especially in the third act) and wasn’t as good so ended up feeling like a dollar discount version, but I also wanted this movie to be a real gritty spy thriller like CA:TWS flirts with, but it never had that vibe. It really ended up feeling like just a superhero movie after about ten minutes. The first ten minutes and the opening credits—which were great—were more the vibe I wanted from the whole movie. And for me, knowing what happens to Natasha in Endgame (which I hate) just deflated the movie a bit. This really should have come out after CA:TWS, or after CA:CW at the latest. Though it definitely tugged at my heartstrings to see blonde Natasha off to help spring Sam&co. from Ross’s jail at the end, knowing where she is ultimately headed.

Rachel Weisz, who I adore, did A LOT with an underwritten part (I laughed at “I am clearly injured”), but she was definitely underserved by the script. I did like that Yelena took after Alexei and Natasha after Melina—interesting family dynamics. They clearly primed Yelena to show up again in the MCU, but I hope Alexei and Melina show up as well. David Harbour and Rachel Weisz are too good and too delightful not to feature again.

The villains were a huge dud. I never felt Dreykov was actually any sort of threat at all and Taskmaster wasn’t interesting. The Red Room just felt like amateur hour to me somehow. And I know a lot of the movie is supposed to be Natasha confronting her demons/past self but somehow that just never quite landed either. So on the whole the antagonists were just super underwhelming.

On 7/10/2021 at 11:31 PM, kiddo82 said:

I've seen some comments that the movie is low stakes on the heels of End Game.  Objectively, that's not wrong, but not everything has to be on the level of save the universe.  I actually liked the intimacy of it given that this was Natasha's swan song.  Again, seeing her get that closure on something so personal like the Red Room was a good way to go out.  

See, I thought the movie TRIED to be really intimate and get to Natasha’s core, but it never really got there for me. I think part of it for me was that it felt a little overstuffed—too many action pieces and not enough character work—and some of it was that the previous movies had just never really established the Red Room. I felt like Natasha bringing down the Red Room/reuniting with her damaged family could have been two movies easily, and built up the Red Room as a more credible threat.

20 hours ago, TrininisaScorp said:

That said, I enjoyed picking apart the fight styles that Taskmaster brought to the table (the Winter Solider and Black Panther styles in particular was nicely done); I've been waiting to see that. 

In some ways I felt like this movie was a better love letter to much of the MCU than Endgame was! The movie was clearly highly Influenced by CA:TWS, but I enjoyed the shout-outs to Black Panther and Avengers among others.

I want to reiterate that the cast and maybe the directing definitely elevated a very mediocre script to a good movie. Everyone was really good and ScarJo was more than up to the task of carrying the movie. It’s just too bad that this movie came out like 5 years too late.

oh, and I did appreciate that the movie totally swerved from my expectations where deaths were concerned. Yelena was clearly not going to die but I thought for sure Melina would die and thought Alexei would be 50-50, so I liked that both lived to appear in more projects. (And can I just say: Yelena, Melina, and Alexei flying around the world helping former Widows seems tailor made for a D+ show. Make it happen, Disney!)

Edited July 13, 2021 by stealinghome