S03.E06: Kind of Bleau

[Pallas]

Abe and Rose find respite from Queens while visiting Midge. Joel and Mei squabble over a liquor license for the bar. Midge helps Shy out of a scrape.

 

[SailorGirl]

“Gavin has a pirate movie...”  well-played Palladinos!!!

[CinAZ]

Well, I was wrong about her and Shy..

poor shy.

so, is Abe writing a screenplay now? Or a book?

Imogene is awesome.

Only 2 more episodes. 😞

[howiveaddict]

Jason Alexander had glaringly white legs for a man who lives in Florida, with a beach stand.  They were George Costanza white!  No sunscreens back then.  Only things to make you tan.  They should have giving him a spray tan. That's all I got to offer.

[ms gilly]

Was there any intro to or exposition about the Jason Alexander character? Rose is hung over and suddenly Abe is hanging out at the beach with him. We backed up to see if we missed something but could not find any explanation.

[debraran]

I felt same way, how was he there? Did Abe talk of him and I was distracted?

[xaxat]

I want to go drinking with Rose. She's a fun drunk.

Joel had better fix things with Mei. I like her.

[TV Diva Queen]

Poor Shy, and him singing his opening "stool set" song to Reggie was beautiful. 

[ShadowFacts]

I don't know why but Joel and Archie fighting cracked me up. I felt disbelief that Rose could still be vertical after what seemed like at least 10 or 12 martinis. Also disbelief that Midge has been with the tour for weeks or months, through several cities, and she only now finds out Shy and black musicians and singers do not stay at the same hotel as she does. She's way more astute than that.

[xaxat]

20 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I felt disbelief that Rose could still be vertical after what seemed like at least 10 or 12 martinis.

The interesting thing about that scene is that all of the martinis were short pours. Half the glass. You drop an double olives in there and it's a lot less alcohol than the dinker thinks.

[ShadowFacts]

11 minutes ago, xaxat said:

The interesting thing about that scene is that all of the martinis were short pours. Half the glass. You drop an double olives in there and it's a lot less alcohol than the dinker thinks.

I know nothing about martinis so I just looked up what a standard one is and it's apparently 2 shots, so if even half that, 10 or 12 shots of anything would do me in. And Rose is a wisp of a woman, doesn't weigh much. Maybe she has high tolerance because she secretly drinks a lot (or Moishe and Shirley drove her to it) but it's probably just the hyperbolic nature of the show in general to show that much booze.

[TV Diva Queen]

8 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I know nothing about martinis so I just looked up what a standard one is and it's apparently 2 shots, so if even half that, 10 or 12 shots of anything would do me in. And Rose is a wisp of a woman, doesn't weigh much. Maybe she has high tolerance because she secretly drinks a lot (or Moishe and Shirley drove her to it) but it's probably just the hyperbolic nature of the show in general to show that much booze.

Martini's are probably 4-7 ounces.  A shot is an ounce and a jigger is 1.5 shots.  

[tennisgurl]

Poor Shy. As if being black and gay in the 50s isnt hard enough, he seems to be harboring feelings for his best friend, and apparently keeps finding crappy guys to hook up with. Him longingly singing his stool song song to Reggie was so heartbreaking.

Rose seems like a fun drunk. Isn't that just so Florida? You go swimming in the ocean, and a wild Jason Alexander appears!

Edited December 11, 2019 by tennisgurl

[TV Diva Queen]

10 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Poor Shy. As if being black and gay in the 50s isnt hard enough, he seems to be harboring feelings for his best friend, and apparently keeps finding crappy guys to hook up with. Him longingly singing his stool song song to Reggie was so heartbreaking.

Rose seems like a fun drunk. Isn't that just so Florida? You go swimming in the ocean, and a wild Jason Alexander appears!

I agree.  So sad.  I think they're a couple, I don't think he's loving Reggie from afar.  That's why Reggie appeared to be crying when Shy was singing to him.  First Reggie was pissed about the stool set, then when he heard what song it was and Shy looking at him, he knew Shy had strayed again.  That's what I got out of it.  🙂

[SailorGirl]

9 minutes ago, TV Diva Queen said:

I agree.  So sad.  I think they're a couple, I don't think he's loving Reggie from afar.  That's why Reggie appeared to be crying when Shy was singing to him.  First Reggie was pissed about the stool set, then when he heard what song it was and Shy looking at him, he knew Shy had strayed again.  That's what I got out of it.  🙂

Wow, I didn't pick up on ANY of that! I know Reggie knows Shy is gay and that if he's doing a stool set he must have been physically injured because its happened in the past, but why do people think Shy and Reggie are a couple and that Shy was singing that song to Reggie? I admit I wasn't watching it super close, but I didn't notice any "meaningful" looks going on between them or any conversations with hidden meanings to imply there was more going on than anyone would assume on the surface.

Reggie said they've been friends since they were little kids, so I took from that is that Reggie is more of a brother to Shy than lover; that he's always protected Shy and was upset as any lifelong best friend/brother would be if they thought the person they wanted to protect got hurt (physically or emotionally) and the protector didn't know right away and/or wasn't even the first person to know about it. 

Edited December 11, 2019 by SailorGirl

[TV Diva Queen]

9 minutes ago, SailorGirl said:

Wow, I didn't pick up on ANY of that! I know Reggie knows Shy is gay and that if he's doing a stool set he must have been physically injured because its happened in the past, but why do people think Shy and Reggie are a couple and that Shy was singing that song to Reggie? I admit I wasn't watching it super close, but I didn't notice any "meaningful" looks going on between them or any conversations with hidden meanings to imply there was more going on than anyone would assume on the surface.

Reggie said they've been friends since they were little kids, so I took from that is that Reggie is more of a brother to Shy than lover; that he's always protected Shy and was upset as any lifelong best friend/brother would be if they thought the person they wanted to protect got hurt (physically or emotionally) and the protector didn't know right away and/or wasn't even the first person to know about it. 

there was a moment when Reggie was in the wings, Shy turns to him and sings the title portion of the lyric and Reggie puts his hand over his mouth, like you would if you got gut punch, and I believe there were tears in his own eyes.  I'm going to watch it again tonight (this and epi 5 are my all time favorites), you watch it too and report back.  🙂 betcha we each change our opinions.  LOL  

[SailorGirl]

2 hours ago, TV Diva Queen said:

there was a moment when Reggie was in the wings, Shy turns to him and sings the title portion of the lyric and Reggie puts his hand over his mouth, like you would if you got gut punch, and I believe there were tears in his own eyes.  I'm going to watch it again tonight (this and epi 5 are my all time favorites), you watch it too and report back.  🙂 betcha we each change our opinions.  LOL  

Will do!! I completely missed that. My assumption was that Reggie was just really sad for his best friend/brother. We shall see!! 🙂

The Miami episode is my favorite so far -- the colors, Midge's dress walking into the hotel, Midge at the pool in the sunglasses and red bathing suit (that could have been an ad for the hotel at that time it was so perfect), and of course the steamy Midge/Lenny scene!!  

Edited December 11, 2019 by SailorGirl

[TV Diva Queen]

3 minutes ago, SailorGirl said:

Will do!! I completely missed that. My assumption was that Reggie was just really sad for his best friend/brother. We shall see!! 🙂

The Miami episode is my favorite so far -- the colors, Midge's dress walking into the hotel, Midge at the pool in the sunglasses and red bathing suit (that could have been an ad for the hotel at that time it was so perfect), and of course the steamy Midge/Lenny scene!!  

The staring!!!!! holy crap that was steamy!

I've spent alot of time at Eden Roc and Fountainbleu as a child in the early 70's for family vacations, there's a 10 year difference from Maisel to my trips, but boy do I love it.  me and the DH go to the Eden Roc once a year....its our favorite.  The FB remolded themselves into an unrecognizable property to me.  

[chitowngirl]

On 12/10/2019 at 3:26 PM, ShadowFacts said:

Also disbelief that Midge has been with the tour for weeks or months, through several cities, and she only now finds out Shy and black musicians and singers do not stay at the same hotel as she does. She's way more astute than that.

In Florida (the segregated South) they are not in the same hotel. In Las Vegas, they were.

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, chitowngirl said:

In Florida (the segregated South) they are not in the same hotel. In Las Vegas, they were.

I didn't catch that. I only remember seeing Shy and the black members of his show in the casino and the kitchen. Back then Las Vegas was known as the Mississippi of the west, the hotels were segregated. Sammy Davis Jr. wasn't allowed in hotels he was performing at until Frank Sinatra made it happen.

[debraran]

8 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I didn't catch that. I only remember seeing Shy and the black members of his show in the casino and the kitchen. Back then Las Vegas was known as the Mississippi of the west, the hotels were segregated. Sammy Davis Jr. wasn't allowed in hotels he was performing at until Frank Sinatra made it happen.

True, and he was big. So many people didn't care as long as they were entertained where you slept, just not with them. (Greenbook showed that also down south) An excerpt from his biography said, re Sammy:

In his autobiography, Yes, I Can, Davis wrote of the stark contrast between how he was warmly greeted in showrooms while he faced segregation in the hotels where he played. Las Vegas Strip hotels did not allow African American customers and entertainers of the post-war era to reside in or patronize the hotel-casinos. Black performers entered and exited through kitchens, and sometimes were lucky to get a meal at the places where they performed. They stayed in boarding houses or motels in racially segregated West Las Vegas. Davis found the situation no better when he played the Skyroom at the Mapes Hotel in Reno.

It said he stayed it was at a home later, not the hotel, per se, that was used for performers, owned by the casino owner, nice but still not with the patrons.

Edited December 12, 2019 by debraran

[Scott]

I was wondering about the segregation in Vegas, after having it called out in this episode and not the Vegas ones, and if I'm reading things right it looks like, in this time frame, some hotel/casinos would make some exceptions if the performer was a big enough name.

I loved that you could hear Camelot being rehearsed when they were waiting for the backer's run-through of Sophie's show to start.  When they lost the theater, I assumed that was the show that would be taking it, and had quite the laugh when it turns Miss Julie stole Camelot's theater instead.

[wonderwoman]

On 12/9/2019 at 2:21 PM, ms gilly said:

Was there any intro to or exposition about the Jason Alexander character? Rose is hung over and suddenly Abe is hanging out at the beach with him. We backed up to see if we missed something but could not find any explanation.

notwithstanding the missing context, i thought their scene was beautifully written and acted. 

Edited December 14, 2019 by wonderwoman

[Clanstarling]

On 12/8/2019 at 12:45 PM, howiveaddict said:

Jason Alexander had glaringly white legs for a man who lives in Florida, with a beach stand.  They were George Costanza white!  No sunscreens back then.  Only things to make you tan.  They should have giving him a spray tan. That's all I got to offer.

My husband does not tan - his legs would be white no matter what (unless they were red from being burned.)

On 12/10/2019 at 6:54 AM, TV Diva Queen said:

Poor Shy, and him singing his opening "stool set" song to Reggie was beautiful. 

I choked up, I am not ashamed to say.

On 12/11/2019 at 6:20 PM, ShadowFacts said:

I didn't catch that. I only remember seeing Shy and the black members of his show in the casino and the kitchen. Back then Las Vegas was known as the Mississippi of the west, the hotels were segregated. Sammy Davis Jr. wasn't allowed in hotels he was performing at until Frank Sinatra made it happen.

The integration of Las Vegas took place on March 6, 1960 - so theoretically before they were in Vegas (depending when, exactly, the Vegas stint was supposed to take place). Here's an article that goes into it in more depth, from the black perspective: https://www.reviewjournal.com/entertainment/integration-push-preceded-sinatra-by-decades/

I really liked this episode. The comedy wasn't quite as over the top, but the dramatic moments were so good. Shy's story, and Reggie's reaction to his song, made them feel like full characters for once, and though it was out of the "bleu" - Abe's reconnection with his old friend and the discussion was pretty perfectly done, both educational and an exploration of how life changes you. I was deeply touched by both.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Clanstarling

[snarktini]

On 12/11/2019 at 9:08 AM, SailorGirl said:

Will do!! I completely missed that. My assumption was that Reggie was just really sad for his best friend/brother. We shall see!! 🙂

I think the scene could go either way and we'll find out. I saw it more your way, where Reggie's emotion is due to realizing what a "stool set" and Shy's pained face means -- Shy's in trouble. The overall story would make sense to have them as a down-low couple, but the scenes haven't read that way to me. My current best guess is that Reggie is fully in the know but there isn't currently a romantic relationship. If they are a couple, then Shy seeming alone so much of this episode makes me think they're on the outs and that's why Shy did something reckless. I can definitely buy Shy pining for Reggie, and perhaps that they used to be together. I can't imagine how hard it was to be a black man or a gay man in 1960, much less both.

I wonder why Midge is so insistent her parents watch her show. Rose just isn't going to "get" Midge -- or even find it funny -- no matter what. Why push? I loved the exchange where Midge says "someone decided to drink their weight in gin" and Rose responds "I do not weigh that much". Ha!

[shapeshifter]

6 hours ago, snarktini said:

I wonder why Midge is so insistent her parents watch her show. Rose just isn't going to "get" Midge -- or even find it funny -- no matter what. Why push?

"Hope springs eternal." I think Midge believes that her mother will be amused by her comedy. Midge is pretty self confident most of the time.

[SnarkAttack]

I'm loving the scenes with Abe and Rose, I think they are funny as all get out.

Thank God for closed captioning (which I use because they talk so fast and because I listened to too much AC/DC in my day); I'd miss a lot of the snappy talk if I didn't.  Love it.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Ugh, was the purpose of this episode to remind me how much I dislike Joel? What a fucking baby. When someone does you a favor by helping you get your liquor license, you say thank you. You don't pick a fight and tell that person to go away. How would he feel if he still didn't hav that liquor license six months from now and he couldn't open the club?

His revisionist history about how he played second fiddle to Midge during their entire marriage just made me roll my eyes. Yes, Midge was making those briskets to get your name on the list for her own glory and edification.

And then he had the nerve to get on Archie about taking off his wedding ring and buying drinks for girls at the bar. This coming from the guy who cheated on his wife and left her so he could move in with his girlfriend!

Sophie continues to be a nightmare client. Good lord.

On 12/10/2019 at 7:57 PM, tennisgurl said:

Rose seems like a fun drunk. Isn't that just so Florida? You go swimming in the ocean, and a wild Jason Alexander appears!

I was in the pool! I was in the pool!

On 12/16/2019 at 2:01 PM, snarktini said:

I wonder why Midge is so insistent her parents watch her show. Rose just isn't going to "get" Midge -- or even find it funny -- no matter what. Why push?

Because despite her bravado and outward confidence, not so deep down she is still a little girl who just wants her parents to be proud of her. She still wants their approval.

[ShadowFacts]

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

And then he had the nerve to get on Archie about taking off his wedding ring and buying drinks for girls at the bar. This coming from the guy who cheated on his wife and left her so he could move in with his girlfriend!

I took it as just hoping to prevent his friend from doing the same stupid things he did. Not so much that he was being the morality police as knowing where it leads. Which of course Archie knew perfectly well already anyway. It's the old men being governed by their little brain thing.

[MoreCoffeePlease]

I agree that most people want the approval of their parents, but when it is crystal clear that they don't care, you have to give up that hope and call them out on it ... that is what therapy is for!

What is it about TV writers that they have the characters drink so much that they would have alcohol poisoning? (Rose was a good dancer, though "One less angel in heaven ...") That, and that they seem to believe that throwing X number of swear words is a requirement.

Was this the episode where Midge wore her boating outfit? (I need to take notes as I watch.) Super cute.

[smartymarty]

On 12/19/2019 at 7:49 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Ugh, was the purpose of this episode to remind me how much I dislike Joel? What a fucking baby. When someone does you a favor by helping you get your liquor license, you say thank you. You don't pick a fight and tell that person to go away. How would he feel if he still didn't have that liquor license six months from now and he couldn't open the club?

I understood him completely. He wanted to do this on his own. Had Mei asked him if he wanted her to help, then fine. But in a sense, SHE was treating HIM like a baby. She just charged ahead and got the liquor license. This is his project, his business. If he wants help, he'll ask for it.

[Scarlett45]

On 12/10/2019 at 9:57 PM, tennisgurl said:

Poor Shy. As if being black and gay in the 50s isnt hard enough, he seems to be harboring feelings for his best friend, and apparently keeps finding crappy guys to hook up with. Him longingly singing his stool song song to Reggie was so heartbreaking.

Rose seems like a fun drunk. Isn't that just so Florida? You go swimming in the ocean, and a wild Jason Alexander appears!

I got the impression that he and Reggie were “together” but not necessarily monogamous (duh). Reggie probably told him to not go to gay hot spots to fuck young guys cause he’s famous etc etc and Shy did it anyway. Poor poor Shy Omg they hurt him so badly!

 

I love Midge but she was so obtuse. No Shy and the other black performers couldn’t stay at the Fountain Bleu, or even be in the audience- they only came back stage through the servants’ entrance. Did she not notice there were no black people in the lobby?

[Scarlett45]

On 12/16/2019 at 4:01 PM, snarktini said:

If they are a couple, then Shy seeming alone so much of this episode makes me think they're on the outs and that's why Shy did something reckless. I can definitely buy Shy pining for Reggie, and perhaps that they used to be together.

I think it’s likely that Reggie, being the more practical one would be pleased to be committed and monogamous- Shy may need a “beard” but I’m sure in their community (and I mean of black performers) they could find a pretty young woman (perhaps a lesbian) that could play that part. However Shy is a performer who wants the adoration of the fans, he likely wants to have sex with any young thing he fancies, and keep stringing Reggie along. Reggie is no fool but is intwined with Shy business wise and emotionally. Hence the strife. 
 

Poor Shy again. He’s nice and he certainly didn’t deserve to get attacked. If they wanted to rob him why hurt him???

[smartymarty]

On 12/28/2019 at 8:00 PM, Scarlett45 said:

If they wanted to rob him why hurt him???

Because he's gay and they're homophobic?

[Scarlett45]

47 minutes ago, smartymarty said:

Because he's gay and they're homophobic?

Well yes I know. And he’s famous and black and so there’s no way he can tell anyone, but still. 

[shapeshifter]

9 hours ago, smartymarty said:

On 12/28/2019 at 7:00 PM, Scarlett45 said:

If they wanted to rob him why hurt him???

Because he's gay and they're homophobic?

8 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Well yes I know. And he’s famous and black and so there’s no way he can tell anyone, but still. 

And “homophobia” is literally Fear of Homosexuality, including fear of being homosexual oneself, so beating someone is a way of trying to prove that one is not gay oneself. Alternatively, if a homophobe is sexually attracted to someone of the same gender, then the homophobe might blame that person for causing those feelings and so become angry and violent. There are other variations of these thought processes that end in violence. Possibly robbery wasn’t even a motive. 
 

[ombre]

Ah, this show does a funny thing - I can *absolutely* just sip it for the first however many episodes - fifteen minutes here, half an hour there - and then it hits the home stretch and it's hard to turn it off. 

 

Great setup here, but the thing that sticks with me is Reggie watching from the wings. Until that moment, the actor, the lighting, the camera work had always done an impressive job of showing Reggie as Guarded Black Man. And that one moment, where we see him through Shy's eyes, he glows and is so, so very beautiful. Impressive moment. 

 

The show is doing an impressively nuanced job of saying without saying this season. Never comes out and says it, but the way the band rolled their eyes at how Shy's just being a self-centered diva and they're all going to lose their paychecks for it spoke volumes about how very thoroughly and successfully he's hid both his sexuality and (one assumes) the repeated violence he's received because of it. Doubles the blows - he gets beat up *and* the people he tours with constantly then dish it out at him behind his back. Even if their rolling their eyes says that his secret is safe, it's still gotta hurt to know the people you live and work with have such a dim view of you. 

[Gummo]

On 12/30/2019 at 7:40 PM, shapeshifter said:

And “homophobia” is literally Fear of Homosexuality, including fear of being homosexual oneself, so beating someone is a way of trying to prove that one is not gay oneself. Alternatively, if a homophobe is sexually attracted to someone of the same gender, then the homophobe might blame that person for causing those feelings and so become angry and violent. There are other variations of these thought processes that end in violence. Possibly robbery wasn’t even a motive. 

And back then it wasn't uncommon for upscale homosexuals to go looking for "rough trade" -- laborers, dock workers, less educated, blue collar men -- for sexual rendezvous, and get victimized by them. Brian Epstein, the Beatles' legendary manager, was notorious for his taste for rough trade (in his case, Liverpool dock workers), and suffered accordingly for it.

We were all waiting for the 'reveal' about Shy, it was just a matter of how the show was going to do it -- and oh, it was heartbreaking. And Midge is learning there's a much darker, more complicated world out there beyond the Upper West Side.

ETA: One of the reasons for trolling for "rough trade" is that it was considered 'safe' in that since they weren't men of your class, there was less chance you'd ever run into them again in embarrassing circumstances. Especially true for an upwardly mobile Englishman like Epstein.

Edited January 11, 2020 by Gummo

[Blakeston]

Yeah, it was very typical back then for closeted men to seek out gay sex, and enjoy it, but then become filled with self-loathing after orgasming - and beat the crap out of the guy they'd just slept with.

I found the ending to be difficult to interpret. Reggie's reaction to the song would suggest they were lovers. But on the other hand, Shy told Midge his real name - something he'd never told Reggie.

That gave me the impression that he'd never actually spoken about his sexuality with Reggie the way he'd spoken with Midge. (Reggie had still presumably figured it out on his own, of course.)

 

Edited January 12, 2020 by Blakeston

[Bryce Lynch]

On 12/11/2019 at 9:49 AM, SailorGirl said:

Wow, I didn't pick up on ANY of that! I know Reggie knows Shy is gay and that if he's doing a stool set he must have been physically injured because its happened in the past, but why do people think Shy and Reggie are a couple and that Shy was singing that song to Reggie? I admit I wasn't watching it super close, but I didn't notice any "meaningful" looks going on between them or any conversations with hidden meanings to imply there was more going on than anyone would assume on the surface.

Reggie said they've been friends since they were little kids, so I took from that is that Reggie is more of a brother to Shy than lover; that he's always protected Shy and was upset as any lifelong best friend/brother would be if they thought the person they wanted to protect got hurt (physically or emotionally) and the protector didn't know right away and/or wasn't even the first person to know about it. 

I thought the heartbroken look on Reggie's face looked like that of a lover who was cheated on (again) not just friend and manager disappointed that his friend/client picked up a guy and got beaten up (again).

Before that moment, I never suspected Reggie was gay, but I was pretty sure when I saw that.

Looking back:

1) Why else would Shy hide what happened from Reggie? One of Reggie's many jobs was cleaning up Shy's messes and he obviously knew Shy was gay.

2) I thought the way they shared the microphone in the smaller room in Vegas was a little suggestive.  I dismissed it as the time, as straight male singers sometimes do that.  But, after the stool set it seemed like a clue.

 

[qtpye]

On 12/30/2019 at 7:40 PM, shapeshifter said:

And “homophobia” is literally Fear of Homosexuality, including fear of being homosexual oneself, so beating someone is a way of trying to prove that one is not gay oneself. Alternatively, if a homophobe is sexually attracted to someone of the same gender, then the homophobe might blame that person for causing those feelings and so become angry and violent. There are other variations of these thought processes that end in violence. Possibly robbery wasn’t even a motive. 
 

 

On 1/11/2020 at 8:40 AM, Gummo said:

And back then it wasn't uncommon for upscale homosexuals to go looking for "rough trade" -- laborers, dock workers, less educated, blue collar men -- for sexual rendezvous, and get victimized by them. Brian Epstein, the Beatles' legendary manager, was notorious for his taste for rough trade (in his case, Liverpool dock workers), and suffered accordingly for it.

We were all waiting for the 'reveal' about Shy, it was just a matter of how the show was going to do it -- and oh, it was heartbreaking. And Midge is learning there's a much darker, more complicated world out there beyond the Upper West Side.

ETA: One of the reasons for trolling for "rough trade" is that it was considered 'safe' in that since they weren't men of your class, there was less chance you'd ever run into them again in embarrassing circumstances. Especially true for an upwardly mobile Englishman like Epstein.

 

On 1/11/2020 at 11:37 AM, Blakeston said:

Yeah, it was very typical back then for closeted men to seek out gay sex, and enjoy it, but then become filled with self-loathing after orgasming - and beat the crap out of the guy they'd just slept with.

I found the ending to be difficult to interpret. Reggie's reaction to the song would suggest they were lovers. But on the other hand, Shy told Midge his real name - something he'd never told Reggie.

That gave me the impression that he'd never actually spoken about his sexuality with Reggie the way he'd spoken with Midge. (Reggie had still presumably figured it out on his own, of course.)

 

There are some group even in heterosexual relationships that blame women and children for "luring or tempting" men rather then have men take responsibility for their own actions.

I can totally believe that heavily closeted individuals would "blame others" for feelings that they do not want to confront and then get violent.

[aradia22]

Why did Midge sleep outside after leaving Lenny? Didn't she tell her parents that she was going to bunk with Carole?

The blue and pink outfit Midge changed into to see her parents was adorable. I love that color combination.

I was a little letdown that we hadn't seen Suzy do anything to help Sophie and then suddenly she could act. It was unsatisfying. What was the point of taking on Sophie as a client and having Suzy go there to help her if we didn't SEE any of it?

Is it just me or was the acting better this episode? I don't know if it was filmed out of order or if the storylines they wanted to set up were finally in place but everything felt less cartoon-y and shallow than it has for much of this season. Having Cary Elwes, Michael Arden, Jason Alexander, etc. also seemed to help ground the performances. This is the episode I'd send in for the Emmy's.

There he is. There's Joel. I thought he might be nervous about shady dealings affecting his business but no. It's all about his ego again and how he feels emasculated.

There was a lot of loaded energy in having Carole (instead of say Reggie) be the one trying to placate all the black members of Shy's band/entourage. I couldn't help but think that if this had been How to Get Away with Murder, it would have been played out. 

I don't get why Midge would be the one person to get around Shy's bad mood. It's not like she knows him so well. 

I'm curious why they chose the Barrymore. I guess it helps that it doesn't have a long-running show and there isn't an electronic marquis. And it's on a block that's easier to cordon off for filming. This whole plotline about losing the theater was silly and pointless but I can see why the writers wanted to bring back the mob guys. They were fun.

I don't know how I feel about pretending Shy threw a fit just so they could film a scene with Shy and Midge having a heart to heart (along with all the white extras who were the ship's crew). I'm not an idiot.

I'm glad we at least got to see Suzy give Sophie a pep talk.

Loved Midge's feather hemmed cocktail dress and the outfit Rose was wearing for the show.

Drunk Rose was hilarious. The actress was making some great choices.

It was pretty obvious that Sophie and Gavin would end up hooking up. I'm glad Michael Arden finally got some more lines. He was perfect.

Rose's hangover dress was gorgeous. I love that print.

I have a problem with the show seeming to think that its caricatures of young people with ideals and passion for activism are actually what those people are like. Young people are not all a bunch of idiots. Tied with Midge's "clean" act for her parents, I think part of the reason people like this show is that its politics are actually pretty conservative.

https://newyorktheater.me/2019/12/13/what-the-marvelous-mrs-maisel-gets-wrong-about-broadway/

I wasn't sure about the shot at Bloomer Girl. I don't know the show myself but it has an oddly progressive plot. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloomer_Girl

I loved Imogene's weird nipple hat. I felt her plight way more than I've felt for Midge in a long time.

That scene in the bar was overly dramatic but maybe they wanted to give Michael (Joel) a shot at an Emmy.

So the Shy plotline everyone was predicting has finally appeared. It does feel weird that no one in the band knows yet Shy was fine confessing it all to Midge. It's also weird that this is the first time Midge has heard of Overtown or thought about any of this. I feel like they brought Shy into the show for a reason but they've waited a hell of a long time to cash it out.

That was a beautiful song choice for Shy. I hadn't realized (or I forgot) that Darius de Haas does the singing for Shy. Again, it feels late in the season and who knows what will happen next episode but I felt like this was a really strong episode. I hope they carry over some of these plotlines into season 4 and really spend time developing them. 

[aradia22]

I mean I will see very soon but I'm with the group that so far hasn't seen any romantic connection between Reggie and Shy. Even if there is something unrequited or some pining, I certainly don't think Reggie was upset because Shy had cheated on him. I didn't get that at all from how the scenes were acted. I don't think it tracks at all that Shy would be feeling this way if he and Reggie were a couple but he had to have fake relationships with women for show. It feels like he's looking for hook ups because that's all he can get. There is no alternative of an actual relationship. I'm more on the side of Reggie knowing Shy's secret and how dangerous it is. Like motorcycles and boats, trying to be on the down low at the time would more likely than not result in a lot of stool shows. I don't think Reggie entirely gets it. That is, that Shy can't live his life always avoiding danger and denying a part of his identity and his need for companionship. The degree to which he's sheltered makes him stir crazy periodically but finding a safe hook up is a lot more difficult than going to drag races or taking the boat out from the dock. 

Quote

His revisionist history about how he played second fiddle to Midge during their entire marriage just made me roll my eyes. Yes, Midge was making those briskets to get your name on the list for her own glory and edification.

I mean, yes. Joel is a schmuck. But also, I think even when their lives were all about Joel and his job and his creative ambitions I think Joel still sensed that Midge was the shining star. She was the conductor. Mei isn't even competitive with Joel and he still feels threatened by how efficient and in charge she is. As Archie pointed out, he'd be better off with a triangle player but Joel would be bored with a Penny. I don't know where this is going. Either he needs to get over himself or he needs to stop chasing women like Midge and Mei.

[Ilovepie]

On 12/19/2019 at 4:49 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

His revisionist history about how he played second fiddle to Midge during their entire marriage just made me roll my eyes. Yes, Midge was making those briskets to get your name on the list for her own glory and edification.

And then he had the nerve to get on Archie about taking off his wedding ring and buying drinks for girls at the bar. This coming from the guy who cheated on his wife and left her so he could move in with his girlfriend!

I don't think it's revisionist history - it's Joel seeing things for how they really were. Midge managing his life for him. Now Mei is stepping in and doing the same thing, hence the brisket comment. Mei sweet talking the liquor license guy is the same thing as Midge making a brisket and sweet talking Jackie to get Joel a comedy spot. I see why he feels this way about her help. The bar is his thing and he wants to do it for himself.

And him getting on Archie is him being a good friend IMHO. He knows firsthand where this leads and doesn't want to see Archie ruin his life like he did.

I actually liked Joel a lot this episode.

Am I losing my mind though? Has Jason Alexander been in this show before he popped up in the Ocean? If he was, I don't remember him. I felt like I missed something????

[chessiegal]

According to IMBd, Jason Alexander was in 2 episodes, this one and Marvelous Radio.

[Lunula]

I intensely dislike Joel and every single time the writers make him a little less annoying, they do something like this freak-out with Mei and ruin it for me. Rather than asking her about it, thanking her and then explaining that he wants to make it "on his own" (even though his dad gave him the money and Archie is heading for divorce after helping him so much I'm not sure how he still sees it as "on his own" - but whatever) - he has to have a temper tantrum instead. 

I cannot stand the entire story with Abe and Rose and I don't find it entertaining. Losing all their money, apartment, job and living with Joel's parents - which makes zero sense - his ridiculous Communist friends and the newspaper, just every bit of it grates me. I find myself wanting to fast forward through it and I can only hope it all resolves soon because it's truly making me not enjoy the show. 

I did like Jason Alexander's surprise appearance and back story. I only hope it brings "something" back to Abe's character because they've kind of assassinated him this season.

 

[DanaMB]

oops. Never mind. 

Edited July 8, 2020 by DanaMB

[kay1864]

So, still binging, still late to the party…but in this whole thread no one has commented on that holy-crap-one-continuous-shot opening? (anyone else notice the Star of David?) I yelped out loud when Midge’s beach ball nailed top-tier woman* 😆

Applause to camera crew and choreographers. 

*Looks like maybe a digital beach ball? Can’t imagine doing that whole setup and swim routine and camerawork, and then her kick goes wide.

Edited May 22, 2022 by kay1864