Episode Discussion II: The TFGH

[Auntie Velvet]

Feel like we're heading for Spencer swooping in for adoption rights. That's even younger than when Michael did it to take Avery away from Sonny as revenge. I wonder if he and Trina will do this together somehow, or possibly he'll propose to Esme out of self-sacrifice?

 

 

[Semiglued]

7 hours ago, DanaK said:

Did I miss something or did Esme not tell anyone that Liesel almost killed her and Nina intervened?

She told Liz when she first woke up (right before Liz tried to figure out it Esme is faking her amnesia) but Liz convinced her it was just a bad dream. 

3 hours ago, ffwbe said:

Think they’re setting up Spencer being pissed at Joss for abandoning Britt at the crime scene, especially when he finds out is was to protect Dex. I guess that’s good because he’s pretty much the only person who would call her out. Trina sees the good in everyone and Cam is another Chase who can’t stay mad for long and her family will enable her

I think they’re setting up Spencer vs Dex. They are making Spencer their main young male lead, which great because NAC is charismatic and very good, but they seem to be making Dex the counterpart young male lead and I do not find the actor or character remotely good or interesting.  But will be happy to see someone lay into Joss for what she’s done and I guess it’ll be a new source of tension when or if they ever get Trina and Spencer to be an actual couple. 

 

[TeeVee329]

3 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Brad and Lucas decided to call him that "because we waited so such a long while for him.

Me, I always think of Wiley E. Coyote.

I remain ever thankful that he wasn't named after Tony, as I first wanted when Lucas (who?) and Brad were angling to adopt.

So should I watch Carly vs. Nina?  Or is the show already giving Carly a pass?

Edited January 14, 2023 by TeeVee329

[perkie1968]

Uh oh.  who do I owe ten (Canadian) dollars to?  I thought for sure they'd end with the reveal not start with it.  

[GHScorpiosRule]

5 minutes ago, perkie1968 said:

Uh oh.  who do I owe ten (Canadian) dollars to?  I thought for sure they'd end with the reveal not start with it.  

You owe @statsgirl!🤣🤣🤣

[Blackie]

33 minutes ago, perkie1968 said:

Uh oh.  who do I owe ten (Canadian) dollars to?  I thought for sure they'd end with the reveal not start with it.  

 

Well I thought they were going to have Nina stomp out before even hearing the reveal so I was even more shocked then you.

 

[perkie1968]

What "day" is it supposed to be?  Josslyn says she didn't come forward right away because she just heard about Britt's death "a couple of hours ago".  

Britt was hooked at midnight and died shortly thereafter on Jan 1st..  Joss woke up, presumable later that morning, found Dex in the kitchen with Carly who then told her that Britt had died.  Joss then told her mother what happened on the docks.  that would have been later the same day.   unless Joss slept through Jan 1st and woke up Jan 2nd.  which would mean it's still Jan 2nd since she told them that she found out hours ago.  

Also, it's still the middle of the night, but the PCPD Is working and summoning Joss?  If she hasn't been at the hospital, wouldn't she have been in bed already?  

1 hour ago, Semiglued said:

Think they’re setting up Spencer being pissed at Joss for abandoning Britt at the crime scene,

Who do I need to pay (10 Canadian dollars!!) to see this happen.  

[perkie1968]

48 minutes ago, TeeVee329 said:

So should I watch Carly vs. Nina?  Or is the show already giving Carly a pass?

Depends what you're looking for.  Carly told her.  Nina thought Carly was losing her mind and or a lying liar.  Carly says she has a DNA test.  Nina's pissed that Carly illegaly took her DNA and did a test.  Nina wants to do her own DNA test on account of all the Carly lying.  Carly says there is no time.  Nina remembers various conversations and arguments with Willow.  Nina can't believe Carly would keep her from her child and calls her a selfish bitch.

Nina then heads to Willow's room, who is awake and demonizing Nina.  Nina says she's there to save Willow's life (paraphrasing but you get the gist)

[Cheyanne11]

4 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Joss's  smugness at the PCPD when Diane showed up was completely unearned. Too bad Robert couldn't charge her with hindering an investigation. Then Dante feels he has to apologize for asking her to come in? They had video. Joss wasn't dragged in kicking and screaming. Ugh.

Those scenes were so obnoxious.  Fucking Joss is STILL lying with her statement that Britt told her to run.  Nice that she's using Britt's death to get out of giving the whole story.  And Diane can go to hell.  The entire speech about "ambushing" Joss?  GMAFB.  Having Dante apologized for doing his damn job?  Never change with the gross mob loyalty, writers.

Is Trina 12?  Why does Portia think she has any say in who Trina is friends with?  Also, lovely that she and Curtis talked about Oz being in a medically induced coma without the slightest bit of guilt at what they did to get him to make a statement. 

It was very satisfying seeing Nina tell Carly the truth: that she is, in fact, a monster.  She poisons everything with her warped sense of "doing the right thing." 

Sigh...Willow's awake and as unhinged as before she collapsed.  "Oh, Wiley saw me pass out--he must've been so scared!"  It's ok, he was terrified before that of you ranting like a loon about how evil the grandmother he loves is.  *Lights a candle that Nina's not a match.*

 

[Kiki777]

Hmm but if Nina’s not a match they’ll find a way to somehow blame her for it.

[Mirabelle]

If Nina is not a match, a twist I'd like to see is they make the connection that Willow is Wiley's biological aunt so they get him tested and it turns out she is not biologically related to him at all - Nelle was not Nina's daughter so they are back to needing a donor. They don't find one and Willow dies as all of Michael's significant others must.* 

I know Sasha is still alive but it looks like she's getting thrown into the Trash Hobo's orbit and that's a fate as bad as Michael. 

[ciarra]

It never ceases to amaze me how a patient can have an all-out meltdown, but no GH staff show up to find out what's going on.  It's not a real hospital, with 50 patients to one nurse, so what's their excuse?

[statsgirl]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

Joss's  smugness at the PCPD when Diane showed up was completely unearned.

Fixed that for you. Diane's smugness is annoying too but that's an undetachable part of her.

Joss has zero f***s to give about Britt dying to save her life except as a chance to fell her sadz.

56 minutes ago, Blackie said:

She used to call Sonny -  Uncle Sonny. Which was weird I thought, because I think it was when Carly was back together with Sonny and Joss was living with Jax.

That makes sense to me because what do you call a stepfather especially when your father is still alive and in your life? Not by his first name when you're so young, Uncle Sonny makes sense to me.

Did Joss ever call Jason "Uncle Jason"?

[jsbt]

6 hours ago, Auntie Velvet said:

Feel like we're heading for Spencer swooping in for adoption rights. That's even younger than when Michael did it to take Avery away from Sonny as revenge. I wonder if he and Trina will do this together somehow, or possibly he'll propose to Esme out of self-sacrifice?

lmao Spencer can't raise a pet rock. It was weird when Michael did it too.

[Grinaldi]

My hatred of Joss is building to the point where she may be among my 5 least liked characters in soap history*. And I've been watching soaps since before Genie debuted as Laura.

You have been targeted by a serial killer TWICE.  Two people are dead because they were close to you. You have seen the killer (maybe not the face) and can easily exonerate the prime suspect. But you won't go to the police because your new slam piece might get in twubble? And when the police, which include your stepbrother, call you out you call a lawyer?

I'm all for a complicated heroine, even an anti heroine.  I love Carly and always will even though I know she is a monster. Characters who make mistakes are interesting. But I will never forgive or forget Josslyn's depraved indifference here. I hope Liesl finds out and tosses her into a well. 

Loved the Carly/Nina face off. Looking forward to the fallout. And this is a feud that can go forever as far as I'm concerned. That's actually a dynamic this show needs, its Viki/Dorian or Kay/Jill. They are both flawed and prone to self-sabotage but neither is an outright villain. I'm not rooting for Willow's death despite her being a big nothingburger of a character. I'm hoping she turns on Carly and eventually Michael over this. Let her team up with Nina to burn Carly's world to the ground. What a joyful surprise it would be if Willow looks at the situation, sees things from Nina's perspective, and welcomes her slowly into her life.

When does Ava find out? Can't wait to see that reaction.

*For the record, my Top 5 most hated soap characters:

1. Marilynn Dennison (OLTL) No one else even remembers this simpering twat, but I do...I do.

2. Franco (Mainly the first iteration. Roger was at least funny sometimes.)

3. Victor Newman (Y&R)

4. Paul Hornsby (GH)/Spencer Truman (OLTL) or any other characters played by Paul Satterfield

5. Meg Snyder (ATWT)  Josslyn Jacks

Edited January 14, 2023 by Grinaldi

[tessaray]

They brought up Esme's Nanny again, though I don't remember if Maggie's letter  telling her to steer clear of her bio father was new** or if they had dropped that tidbit last year when Spencer was poking thru Esme's stash of letters. They also mentioned the adopted siblings again. (At least there are some potential additions to the dating pool when they inevitably show up in PC.)

** I wonder if this lends credence to a theory I saw somewhere that Heather was Esme's governess. 

[Mirabelle]

1 hour ago, jsbt said:

lmao Spencer can't raise a pet rock. It was weird when Michael did it too.

For one brief glorious second, I thought you meant that adult Michael had carried around a pet rock at one point and that was the most likeable thing about him. Then I realized you meant adoption and thought, "Yeah, the idiot was raised by baby hoarders, of course he's gonna try and snatch up all the babies he can."

Edited January 14, 2023 by Mirabelle

[sashabear21]

Nina telling Carly, "You're a monster" is a thing of beauty! I want gifs, I want reaction shots, I want disembodied DJ voices from the 90's telling me to pump up the volume! 

[YaddaYadda]

5 hours ago, tessaray said:

They brought up Esme's Nanny again, though I don't remember if Maggie's letter  telling her to steer clear of her bio father was new** or if they had dropped that tidbit last year when Spencer was poking thru Esme's stash of letters.

Esme read a letter before Spencer found the box where her nanny was telling her that she should stay away from her bio father.

Quote

** I wonder if this lends credence to a theory I saw somewhere that Heather was Esme's governess. 

I thought about this and the letters from Maggie that Esme was reading was a fairly recent one and the correspondence was coming from London, so it shouldn't be her. But then, Heather has teleported from the nut house into PC and killed Britt with the venom hook, so who in the fuck knows.

But it was interesting that the nanny was brought up since a bunch of us speculated that it might be her.

The episode. Michael at Willow's bedside telling her how she's basically his conscience. I don't know what you need her for since you keep shutting down said conscience. 

The confrontation was good. The flashbacks they chose were really interesting. If Carly had told the truth about Willow/Nina when she found out, then the relationship would not have deteriorated the way it did over the past few months. But Carly is a monster. Carly would tear into anyone who would dare keep her children from her, but you know, vengeance . . .

Drew's reveal to Michael, with the whole Carly and I have reasons to believe that Nina is Willow's mother was so very weak. Dude, grow a pair! What a disappointing character he turned out to be. Stop trying to protect Carly. She's a big girl, she should take responsibility for what she's done with her golden child.

And then her lashing out at Sonny. Can't take it out on Nina, so take it out on Sonny. Real mature.

Joss at the PCPD. No words for that. It was morning when she found out about Britt, evening when she was banging Dex and receiving summons from Sonny to find out about Willow. Buy a watch. That's not a couple of hours, it's a whole day. Joss deserves to be on the receiving end of that hook. Joss has no empathy or humanity in her. She's a horrid character.

[mostlylurking]

16 hours ago, jsbt said:

Willow's ceaseless rage at Nina (who she shouldn't care that much about, and who also shouldn't still be on this show either despite my love for Cynthia Watros but that's another topic) is unhinged to watch and speaks to her background with that crazy cult lady.

And look at her reaction when Nina barged into her hospital room (which of course Nina shouldn’t have done but any opportunity to make Nina look horrible I guess). She was practically cowering behind Michael as if Nina was going to physically attack her or something.  It’s completely over the top and not normal.  I wish they would explore Willow’s mental health at some point, especially since now she has the family history of mental illness with her bio mom and sister.  I think the actress would be up for it, I remember really liking her back when she was with Chase and the whole cult/baby reveal business.   Being paired with Michael has totally ruined her.

[sacrebleu]

Carly is the worst, for a number of reasons, but I think it's important to remember that Willow's best chance for a marrow donor would have been her twin sister, who Carly let fall off a cliff. 😄

 

[CeChase]

30 minutes ago, sacrebleu said:

Carly is the worst, for a number of reasons, but I think it's important to remember that Willow's best chance for a marrow donor would have been her twin sister, who Carly let fall off a cliff. 😄

 

Good point. 

[nilyank]

38 minutes ago, sacrebleu said:

Carly is the worst, for a number of reasons, but I think it's important to remember that Willow's best chance for a marrow donor would have been her twin sister, who Carly let fall off a cliff. 😄

 

Carly did not let her fall. She tried to save Nelle but she could not hold on and pull her up.

[YaddaYadda]

1 hour ago, mostlylurking said:

She was practically cowering behind Michael as if Nina was going to physically attack her or something.  It’s completely over the top and not normal.  

Over the top, maybe. Not normal. Definitely not. But given the nightmare she had before her confrontation with Nina, I sort of get her reaction.

That said, Willow has some 25 years of instability and abuse in all its forms under her belt. Her so-called mother sold her out to a sexual predator who raped her and got her pregnant, which is about the worst thing Harmony could have done to her before she tattled to Shiloh about the baby. Imagine having the utter gall to say that Nina's love will smother Willow. Lady, are you out of your ever loving mind?

Quote

I wish they would explore Willow’s mental health at some point, especially since now she has the family history of mental illness with her bio mom and sister.

The writers have zero interest in doing anything remotely interesting with their characters. But here are your soap tropes in all their glory. Munch on that, be happy, and STFU.

The wash-rinse-repeat cycle is strong. 

ETA - On a different note, was I the only one fixated on Willow's pillow belly, which was not at the right place? First, she did not look like she was pregnant at all with some camera angles. Second, pregnancy pillow was completely too high up in a lot of shots.

Edited January 14, 2023 by YaddaYadda

[dubbel zout]

12 hours ago, Mirabelle said:

I know Sasha is still alive but it looks like she's getting thrown into the Trash Hobo's orbit and that's a fate as bad as Michael. 

We don't know Cody's romantic history, but I doubt he has a string of dead girlfriends strewn along his path the way Michael does. So Cody is automatically a step up. Plus, not being Michael is always a point in someone's favor.

9 hours ago, Grinaldi said:

And this [Carly vs. Nina] is a feud that can go forever as far as I'm concerned.

It could be good, but Carly will never not get the upper hand. The thing about Dorian/Viki that was so good is that they both gave as good as they got and took their lumps. They also teamed up if necessary. I can't see any of that happening here, since Carly always has to win every single time. It's a real shame, because Wright and Watros are very well-matched as scene partners.

3 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Michael at Willow's bedside telling her how she's basically his conscience. I don't know what you need her for since you keep shutting down said conscience. 

I laughed at that, too. Willow is Michael's conscience only when she agrees with him, which is of course all the time because her spine has been completely removed since she hooked up with that dolt.

[Blackie]

10 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

On a different note, was I the only one fixated on Willow's pillow belly, which was not at the right place? First, she did not look like she was pregnant at all with some camera angles. Second, pregnancy pillow was completely too high up in a lot of shots.

No I noticed and commented even before when she had her ultrasound how weird the belly bump thing is.Plus looks weird because he has no prego boobs

[mostlylurking]

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

ETA - On a different note, was I the only one fixated on Willow's pillow belly, which was not at the right place?

Hahaha yes, I noticed the pillow baby wasn’t in the right spot either.  It almost looked like part of her chest when Carly was in the room with her.

[racked]

10 hours ago, Grinaldi said:

 But I will never forgive or forget Josslyn's depraved indifference here. I hope Liesl finds out and tosses her into a well. 

 

Joss down a well is a storyline I can get behind. The worst thing the Hook did is fail to kill her. 

[YaddaYadda]

10 minutes ago, racked said:

Joss down a well is a storyline I can get behind. The worst thing the Hook did is fail to kill her. 

Twice. The Hook is incompetent.

[sunnyface]

On 1/14/2023 at 7:23 AM, YaddaYadda said:

Dude, grow a pair! What a disappointing character he turned out to be.

This is the first time I've seen CM acting. He seems like he has been listening nonstop to Tony Robbins' motivation tapes.  But CM doesn't seem to be enthralled in his current role in interviews and in performances.

22 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

We don't know Cody's romantic history, but I doubt he has a string of dead girlfriends strewn along his path the way Michael does. So Cody is automatically a step up.

Perhaps if the actor didn't seem to portray his character as wanting to be anywhere but where he is.  Of course, the writing (and direction) has not helped.  What viewer wants to tune in to watch a character playing 'depressed'?  I look forward to Tracy's interactions with both Cody and Olivia.

Lucy?

Selena is MIA (as is her goodlooking security guy).  Love that actress).

It seems that Curtis/Portia will soon enter a relationship break.  Hope that Curtis' bartender gets some screen time.  Curtis and N'Neaka seems to have a good relationship.

Way to go writers. That sure is some accomplishment in making a character that  was sexually abused throughout her childhood, suffered the loss of a baby (resulting from that abuse), and currently lying in a hospital bed with stage-IV cancer  - unrootable.

 

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by sunnyface
sonny

[jacourt]

With there being two babies possibly being born around the same time, premature, the odds are one doesn’t make it. Makes sense that willows will be the one and Michael or Carly will do the switcheroo because willow can’t handle it. 

[YaddaYadda]

12 minutes ago, jacourt said:

Makes sense that willows will be the one and Michael or Carly will do the switcheroo because willow can’t handle it. 

Or Nina. I could see her doing something like this.

[nilyank]

20 minutes ago, jacourt said:

With there being two babies possibly being born around the same time, premature, the odds are one doesn’t make it. Makes sense that willows will be the one and Michael or Carly will do the switcheroo because willow can’t handle it. 

I don't want a switcheroo but Nina now knows that Willow is her daugher, she will more likely do it.

[CeChase]

oh god, please NO more baby switcheroos.  But you guys are right...I don't doubt Nina wouldn't even think twice about doing that.  

[dubbel zout]

None of them would think twice. It's for the dolts, who must be indulged at all costs.

[Gemini2989]

I could see Nina switching the babies because willow is her daughter and doesn’t want to see her loose a child. She could justify it in her mind because Esme is a psycho and she doesn’t deserve to have a baby after everything she’s done. Also she would be helping her bestie by getting rid of the constant reminder of Nik’s affair. Yes Ava wants a divorce but she still loves Nikolas and it would hurt Ava to have to constantly see the product of that affair. So it would be better off for everyone if they think that baby was dead. 

Edited January 14, 2023 by Gemini2989

[Cheyanne11]

If a baby switch is inevitable let the show have some balls and have Carly do it.  

[MsMalin]

The difference between Willow and me:

Willow: has a nightmare and still thinks Nina wants to steal her kids hours later

Me: I took a nap today and dreamed it was Valentines Day. I woke up and wished my husband a happy Valentine's day. Then 2 seconds later realized it was January 14 and cooked dinner.

Edited January 14, 2023 by MsMalin

[Liddy52]

Maybe Spencer will be involved in the baby switch, since he said something about neither Nik nor Esme raising the baby?? But not sure how that would come about? He and Sonny pull it off at Nina's request? 

[Cheyanne11]

It makes zero sense for Nina to be involved in a baby switch when she now knows she had not one, but two, babies taken from her.  I don’t buy the idea she’d do it for Willow.  If the show goes there it’ll prove her again that the writers are intent to make her worse than Carly.

[statsgirl]

Nina just argued with Liesl that even though Esme may be a murderer, she doesn't deserve to have her baby taken from her.

Now maybe that means nothing when it comes to Willow but why would the writers put that scene in if Nina is going to steal the baby from Esme?

[sas616]

16 hours ago, Grinaldi said:

My hatred of Joss is building to the point where she may be among my 5 least liked characters in soap history*. And I've been watching soaps since before Genie debuted as Laura.

You have been targeted by a serial killer TWICE.  Two people are dead because they were close to you. You have seen the killer (maybe not the face) and can easily exonerate the prime suspect. But you won't go to the police because your new slam piece might get in twubble? And when the police, which include your stepbrother, call you out you call a lawyer?

I'm all for a complicated heroine, even an anti heroine.  I love Carly and always will even though I know she is a monster. Characters who make mistakes are interesting. But I will never forgive or forget Josslyn's depraved indifference here. I hope Liesl finds out and tosses her into a well. 

Loved the Carly/Nina face off. Looking forward to the fallout. And this is a feud that can go forever as far as I'm concerned. That's actually a dynamic this show needs, its Viki/Dorian or Kay/Jill. They are both flawed and prone to self-sabotage but neither is an outright villain. I'm not rooting for Willow's death despite her being a big nothingburger of a character. I'm hoping she turns on Carly and eventually Michael over this. Let her team up with Nina to burn Carly's world to the ground. What a joyful surprise it would be if Willow looks at the situation, sees things from Nina's perspective, and welcomes her slowly into her life.

When does Ava find out? Can't wait to see that reaction.

*For the record, my Top 5 most hated soap characters:

1. Marilynn Dennison (OLTL) No one else even remembers this simpering twat, but I do...I do.

2. Franco (Mainly the first iteration. Roger was at least funny sometimes.)

3. Victor Newman (Y&R)

4. Paul Hornsby (GH)/Spencer Truman (OLTL) or any other characters played by Paul Satterfield

5. Meg Snyder (ATWT)  Josslyn Jacks

I don't know if I could have taken Meg Snyder of that list.   Couldn't stand her.   Don't know if it was the character or the actress because couldn't stand her was Summer (I think that was her name) on Days either.

[YaddaYadda]

38 minutes ago, Cheyanne11 said:

It makes zero sense for Nina to be involved in a baby switch when she now knows she had not one, but two, babies taken from her.  I don’t buy the idea she’d do it for Willow.  If the show goes there it’ll prove her again that the writers are intent to make her worse than Carly.

That's the problem. Anyone Carly hates for x or y always comes out looking worst than her.

Nina shouldn't be stealing babies because her mother stole hers babies from her and she knows what she did to Ava was wrong. But it's this show and these writers and Carly's halo must be shined at all cost.

[Artsda]

I want Nina to not help Willow. Just say ok and walk out of the room to Willows demands. 

Carly not only kept a mother from Willow, but Lisel, Britt who can't help now, James and even that Riley is a blood relative. 

[Katy M]

I think Willow is having a nervous breakdown.  She didn't even hear what Nina had said (had I been Willow and heard Nina saying that crap about my decisions, I would have gone ballistic) and she went crazy just because she was in her house.  

As for a baby switch, I could see Esme doing it so Nik wouldn't have her baby.

I guess I could also see Willow doing it because of hte aforementioned nervous breakdown I think she's having.

[statsgirl]

I know that these writers are close to creatuvely bankrupt but

5 hours ago, Katy M said:

Esme doing it so Nik wouldn't have her baby.

this is exactly what Nelle did 4 years ago. Viewers memories aren't that shot.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I know I’m probably giving this slow too much credit, but right now only Willow is supposed to deliver according to her doctors. No mention of how Esmé also has to deliver ASAP. So I don’t see a switch coming.  UNLESS that Moab or gasp in the previews meant she’s gonr into labor.

[Aymery]

Willow is 8 months pregnant and Esme is 7 months; one needs to deliver urgently and the other does not. Plus it's been strongly implied Esme's baby is a boy, whereas we know Willow's is a girl. (But Esme's kid's gender was never medically confirmed on-air, so that could easily be changed.) So on the surface it doesn't seem like a baby switch is imminent. And really, how often will they go to that well - the last "legacy" kid to be born on the show, Bailey Louise, was also subject to a baby switch?

However, if they really want to go down that path, then the ideal candidate is right there: Liesl. She's already established as unscrupulous, she hates Esme, and she will have just learned that Willow is her great-niece. I could easily see her determining that Esme doesn't deserve to be a mother, and that no more women in Liesl's own family deserve to lose another child (Nina lost Nelle, Willow lost original Wiley).

It just occurred to me: if Willow or her daughter do die, then the Curse of the Clays will have struck yet again. Both the Clay brothers are dead (well, one of them is technically undead). Two of Silas's three daughters (Kiki and Nelle) are dead. One of his grandsons, original Wiley, is dead. Nelle's original fiance drowned. Silas's brother's baby mama (Alison Barrington) and their son (Rafe Kovich, Jr.) are dead, as is Rafe's namesake stepdad. Even Clay in-laws like his MIL (mother-/murderer-in-law) Madeline, brother/cousin-in-law Nathan and cousin-in-law Britt are dead. And except for the baby, every one of them has died a violent death. Yikes. I know it's probably coincidental, but it feels like having an entire extended family decimated by murder - all by different killers! - feels like it must have some sinister design behind it.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Aymery

[Katy M]

5 hours ago, Aymery said:

lus it's been strongly implied Esme's baby is a boy, whereas we know Willow's is a girl

But, that's just because Esme keeps calling the baby Ace.  Has she had an ultrasound?

Or, if Esme's baby is a boy, maybe they'll just run off together. Never too early go get away from too much family drama.

[dubbel zout]

6 minutes ago, Katy M said:

But, that's just because Esme keeps calling the baby Ace.  Has she had an ultrasound?

I think Elizabeth has given Esmé an ultrasound with a portable machine, but the gender of the baby was never mentioned. And Elizabeth did say that Nik had ordered a regular machine.