S02.E06: Love's in Need of Love Today

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

After falling ill while organizing his annual AIDS Cabaret, PrayTell lands in the hospital leading to a series of unexpected visitors.

Promo:

Original air date: 7/23/19

[Guest]

Ah, another ray of sunshine in a string of super uplifting, not at all depressing episodes!

Not really worried for Pray because Billy Porter does the most heavy lifting acting-wise by far.

[Ohwell]

I'm liking Pray Tell's story but I did not need to see Ghost of Candy, yet again.  Bitch needs to stay dead.

Just give Pray the damn Emmy.

The Man That Got Away. *sniff*

Edited July 24, 2019 by Ohwell

[SimoneS]

I thought this episode came too soon after Candy's death. However, it picked up when it was revealed that Fredricka was scamming Blanca. Damn, that woman is evil as hell. I loved the noisy protest to embarrass her. I loved Elektra showing up and bringing a crew with her.

Edited July 24, 2019 by SimoneS

[Surrealist]

There were happy moments (the singing!) mixed in with sadness.

When Blanca disclosed that she had AIDS, Elektra looked crestfallen, and I started crying. 

[Irlandesa]

This episode worked for me in the way Candy's didn't.  In fact, I thought Candy was at her most likable giving Pray grief in his hallucination.

When Frederika first got up to sing, I thought they were going to show she was an awful singer which is somewhat of a cliche when they have Broadway-level singing talent playing someone who likely wouldn't have it.  I'm glad they went all out with the performances.  I would've loved a Pray Tell/Frederika duet....just cuz.  Why stick to realism? 

Pray's dream performance was my favorite, though.  Great performance.  Great clothing. 

[LittleIggy]

Frederika is an evil beyotch, but Patti Lapone is a national treasure. So is Billy Porter. Yeah, I would love for them to do a duet, too.  I didn’t know Sandra Bernhardt could sing. Elektra being awful was hilarious.

I’m still irritated that the Evangelista apartment is such a dump. 🙄

Edited July 24, 2019 by LittleIggy

[AgentRXS]

Its criminal that Patti and Billy didn't get a duet together. Absolutely criminal.

Loved the episode. Never thought Sandra Bernhard covering Prince would ever be something I would be listening to, much less enjoying, but here we are.

[nilyank]

1 hour ago, Irlandesa said:

When Frederika first got up to sing, I thought they were going to show she was an awful singer which is somewhat of a cliche when they have Broadway-level singing talent playing someone who likely wouldn't have it. 

If you are going to have Patti Lupone on your show, you better take the opportunity to have her sing and be awesome at it.

1 hour ago, LittleIggy said:

I’m still irritated that the Evangelista apartment is such a dump. 🙄

They had old blankets hanging haphazardly one the windows. I don't care how tight money is, but blinds or curtains are not going to break the bank.

And it doesn't make sense with what we know about who lives there.

Before tonight, Blanca had her nail salon

Angel is getting modelling gigs

Papi had a steady job

Damon teach vogue to the masses

Unless all their money is going to the balls or to help Bianca with her AZT medication, they should have some money on hand to buy a couple gallons of paint and have them all paint the entire apartment in pretty colors.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

Frederica is a trip.  

I loved the premise.  The songs, not so much.  The talent was undeniable.  So, too, the pall over the whole effort.  

I'm still trying to figure out the point of the dialogue with Pray's Stepdad.  Did that man actually insist he didn't know what he did/said that was so bad?!!!!  

Candy's Siren song of what Pray could have was classic Devilry.  There's no questioning which side she landed on.  Really good, show.

What I did not get was Pray's lust to live.  If it was about his arrogance that HEEEE owned special insights and powers, cool.  If it came from a sense that he actually loves his life and its myriad trials and tribulations, I'm not buying.  This ep reinforced how terribly tiring it all was for him.  Is his anger truly all that consuming?  Is that the fire?  The transference (blaming) Pray engaged in was bang on, though.

The pacing of Blanca's discovery of the shuttered salon was just bad.  Then straight to the dinner scene?  Amateurish.  This show is blessed to have great leeway with running time,  TPTB should have used it better.  Also...does she not have any tech working there?  It's just Blanca?  I thoroughly loved Frederica's backhanded way of explaining the marketing issue to a full-of-herself Blanca.  For all her wondrous ferocity and bottomless heart, Blanca can be slow on the uptake and miss the forest for the trees on occasion.  Serious kudos to TPTB for allowing the heroine to not be perfect.     

Elektra being human for 3.4 seconds?   Beauteous!  

[DCCFan197605]

I hope Patti gets her guest Emmy for this.  

[justmehere]

Well, you wouldn't think anyone could challenge Judy Garland on The Man That Got Away, but damn! Billy Porter was spectacular. Absolutely loved it! (Side note: What was on the end of his train?) 

Pray Tell's fear in being admitted to the hospital, and especially throwing a temper tantrum because of it, felt realistic and honest.

I don't know what else they could have done, but I was interested in the conversation between Pray Tell and his hospital roommate - PT's assumption of the man being a queen and the other man shutting him down; I would have liked to see more on that.

Wonderful idea that the very simple cabaret Pray Tell first put on has become an annual event that has grown considerably in scope. And yet, it's still a relatively small affair that hasn't lost the purpose of entertaining patients. 

Interesting that Candy is haunting Pray Tell. I wonder if his adamant declarations about wanting to live aren't a bit defensive. Maybe he's seeing Candy because part of him does want to give in and be done with it, and it's easier to externalize the feeling than admit to it.

Frederika is so cold! Wow. But it seems she has met her match. I loved seeing the community come together to support Blanca after all the support she has given them.

Of course Patti Lupone was great singing I'm Still Here. Makes me think of Shirley MacLaine's wonderful version in Postcards From the Edge. Fits the characterization of a tough, slightly older woman who has lived.

I love the Stevie Wonder song used for the episode title. It was a great choice for Blanca to sing, and hooray that it turned into another duet with Pray Tell.

All that said, though... I thought the episode was fairly uneven and choppy, and some of the dialog was pretty clunky. I was expecting to be blown away by the scenes of Pray Tell in the hospital, but even with Billy Porter, I wasn't, really. Also, during the cabaret show, just being told about the silent auction and how much was raised felt awkward and thrown in. A line or two about items donated, or business participation, or seeing people at the tables would have helped. 

Absolutely agree that Blanca discovering her shop boarded up and then jumping to the dinner was bad - just bad editing. I'm guessing it was necessary for time - even with a few extra minutes allowed - but it wasn't executed well. Actually, I think editing overall was problematic. Maybe the episode ran really long and they did what they could, but it didn't flow well at all. 

Still - what fun having Ricky, Damon, and Lulu sing backup, and though Blanca talked about wanting to get some "name" performers (another rushed and awkward bit), I liked that it was just people from the community participating. Had to laugh at Elektra, who no doubt thought she was a wonderful performer. Appreciated that they showed her devastation on hearing Blanca's reveal and also that moment between them during the protest.

Edited July 24, 2019 by justmehere
clarity

[Ohwell]

Patti Lupone/Frederika had me fooled too.  I give her props for being so good at being such a stone cold bitch.  Bitch can sing though.  

I know Ekektra has gotten flak for being a bad actress, but I always thought Blanca was even worse.  Something about the voice just annoys me, even though I like the character. 

I fear that this isn't the last we've seen of Candy and it's going to be a running story with her and Pray Tell.  I hope I'm wrong.

[Empress1]

8 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

I’m still irritated that the Evangelista apartment is such a dump.

Since we talked about it here, I keep noticing things about it. This week it was the floors - those floors are nice! And that place is huge. If they had decent furniture and decor it would be gorgeous. I noticed the nice floors in contrast to the shitty mattress on the floor when Blanca went into "the kids" room to yell at them. I also noticed the size - walking down a hall like that is a luxury.

7 hours ago, nilyank said:

If you are going to have Patti Lupone on your show, you better take the opportunity to have her sing and be awesome at it.

Word. It was only a matter of time before she sang, and I'm glad they had her kill it.

I give Elektra's acting skills shit as much as anyone, but her face when Blanca revealed that she lives with AIDS was well done.

3 hours ago, justmehere said:

Pray Tell's fear in being admitted to the hospital, and especially throwing a temper tantrum because of it, felt realistic and honest.

I think it is such a simple, vulnerable, almost beautiful thing to reveal one's feelings that way. "I'm scared." Especially for someone like Pray, who is the backbone for so many and probably doesn't have many opportunities to be vulnerable.

I laughed at Angel's "Mr. Pray. Mr. Tell! You know Mother say you can't have no booze." It was the delivery.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I don't care that bringing back Pray Tell's cabaret was just a blatant excuse to let Patti, Billy, and the cast sing. MJ was the biggest surprise. I had no idea she was such a good singer!

Frederica is cold as ice but I'm so glad we got to hear Patti sing. She was amazing!

Elektra's terrible rendition of Sooner or Later was hilarious. I remember LOVING the Dick Tracy soundtrack.

Papi's "sorry about your dyslexia" totally cracked me up.

Edited July 24, 2019 by ElectricBoogaloo

[HorrrGoodnight]

Not sure how I felt about this episode. I enjoyed the cabaret performances but I could do without the Sixth Sense malarkey. Give us a chance to miss Candy! 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

4 hours ago, justmehere said:

Well, you wouldn't think anyone could challenge Judy Garland on The Man That Got Away, but damn! Billy Porter was spectacular. Absolutely loved it! (Side note: What was on the end of his train?) 

It looked like bags of hospital refuse.

[Surrealist]

8 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

I'm still trying to figure out the point of the dialogue with Pray's Stepdad.  Did that man actually insist he didn't know what he did/said that was so bad?!!!!  

Pray's step-dad accused him of coming onto him, even though Pray was only 12.

After the episode, I Googled Billy Porter and came across a recent Esquire interview. In it he mentions that, between the ages of 7-12, his stepfather sexually abused him. So, I'm guessing Billy gave permission to Lady J and Brad Falchuk to work that into the script. 

Which makes me sadder that it's based on Billy's real life. 

[Empress1]

35 minutes ago, Surrealist said:

Pray's step-dad accused him of coming onto him, even though Pray was only 12.

After the episode, I Googled Billy Porter and came across a recent Esquire interview. In it he mentions that, between the ages of 7-12, his stepfather sexually abused him. So, I'm guessing Billy gave permission to Lady J and Brad Falchuk to work that into the script. 

Which makes me sadder that it's based on Billy's real life. 

Billy Porter did an interview with journalist Toure for Toure's podcast (the interview is great, I recommend it), and he mentions his stepfather's abuse in it too. I thought of that when I saw that scene.

[Blakeston]

 

 

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6 hours ago, justmehere said:

Still - what fun having Ricky, Damon, and Lulu sing backup, and though Blanca talked about wanting to get some "name" performers (another rushed and awkward bit), I liked that it was just people from the community participating.

Blanca's been coming across as pretty naive lately, with her absolute certainty that the ball scene is going to become a mainstream sensation, just because of one song about it.

But her actually believing she could get Johnny Matthis to play that dingy hospital room? That's a whole new level of naivete. It reminded me of Rose on The Golden Girls thinking she could get Bob Hope to emcee their benefit. Girl, get it together.

 

 

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10 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

I'm still trying to figure out the point of the dialogue with Pray's Stepdad.  Did that man actually insist he didn't know what he did/said that was so bad?!!!! 

Many child molesters really don't believe they've done anything wrong, so I could believe that the stepfather felt that way deep down.

[Guest]

I skipped most of this one because musical episodes are just cast showcases that do nothing for the plot and Pray's Candy hallucinations are getting straight up corny. Her funeral episode was already pushing it, and now she's his imaginary friend? Ok then.

[Ohwell]

I never got the impression that Candy was such an important character in the show, so I don't know why they keep bringing Dead Candy back. 

[ClareWalks]

2 hours ago, Ohwell said:

I never got the impression that Candy was such an important character in the show, so I don't know why they keep bringing Dead Candy back. 

Dead Candy has officially gotten more airtime than Alive Candy 😛

[qtpye]

16 hours ago, nilyank said:

If you are going to have Patti Lupone on your show, you better take the opportunity to have her sing and be awesome at it.

They had old blankets hanging haphazardly one the windows. I don't care how tight money is, but blinds or curtains are not going to break the bank.

And it doesn't make sense with what we know about who lives there.

Before tonight, Blanca had her nail salon

Angel is getting modelling gigs

Papi had a steady job

Damon teach vogue to the masses

Unless all their money is going to the balls or to help Bianca with her AZT medication, they should have some money on hand to buy a couple gallons of paint and have them all paint the entire apartment in pretty colors.

17 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

Frederika is an evil beyotch, but Patti Lapone is a national treasure. So is Billy Porter. Yeah, I would love for them to do a duet, too.  I didn’t know Sandra Bernhardt could sing. Elektra being awful was hilarious.

I’m still irritated that the Evangelista apartment is such a dump. 🙄

8 hours ago, Empress1 said:

Since we talked about it here, I keep noticing things about it. This week it was the floors - those floors are nice! And that place is huge. If they had decent furniture and decor it would be gorgeous. I noticed the nice floors in contrast to the shitty mattress on the floor when Blanca went into "the kids" room to yell at them. I also noticed the size - walking down a hall like that is a luxury.

Word. It was only a matter of time before she sang, and I'm glad they had her kill it.

I give Elektra's acting skills shit as much as anyone, but her face when Blanca revealed that she lives with AIDS was well done.

I think it is such a simple, vulnerable, almost beautiful thing to reveal one's feelings that way. "I'm scared." Especially for someone like Pray, who is the backbone for so many and probably doesn't have many opportunities to be vulnerable.

I laughed at Angel's "Mr. Pray. Mr. Tell! You know Mother say you can't have no booze." It was the delivery.

I don’t mean to be shallow but the apartment does have nice floors and a lot of potential. It is hard for me to believe that such put together ladies like Electra, Blanca, and Angel are okay with their living space looking like a garbage dump, not to mention the  boys. Even Lulu and Candi put some effort into their space. Electra lived there two years and she is very particular about everything.

4 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Blanca's been coming across as pretty naive lately, with her absolute certainty that the ball scene is going to become a mainstream sensation, just because of one song about it.

But her actually believing she could get Johnny Matthis to play that dingy hospital room? That's a whole new level of naivete. It reminded me of Rose on The Golden Girls thinking she could get Bob Hope to emcee their benefit. Girl, get it together.

Many child molesters really don't believe they've done anything wrong, so I could believe that the stepfather felt that way deep down.

Pedophiles are always trying to convince themselves that children are sexual and that the abuse was mutually enjoyed. 

Edited July 24, 2019 by qtpye

[HorrrGoodnight]

I think they might be saving the apartment for a makeover moment. That's the only reason I can think of that would warrant the condition. I mean at least some cosmetic changes could have been made by now. 

[SHD]

I’m getting a little tired of all the surrealistic scenes. They’re well done, but not really what I wanted from this show. 

[ichbin]

11 minutes ago, SHD said:

I’m getting a little tired of all the surrealistic scenes. They’re well done, but not really what I wanted from this show. 

You're not alone.  I was glad the show seems to have dropped the Angel/Stan/Patty story line but not happy to see it replaced with spirits and musical numbers.

[kieyra]

Devil’s advocate on the fixer upper apartment: when you live in a place for a long time, you stop noticing some of the shittiness. Plus these characters all have a lot going on in their lives, and I assume most of their money goes to fashion.

Just a thought. I can’t claim I haven’t noticed the same stuff. (“At least make the bed!”). Maybe the show is trying to make sure to keep some things gritty. And other shows will get called out for having ostensibly poor characters live in homes that are way too nice/professionally decorated.

ETA: Oh, glad to see I wasn’t the only one not interested in Glee redux. Rather see more ballroom.

Edited July 25, 2019 by kieyra

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, ichbin said:

You're not alone.  I was glad the show seems to have dropped the Angel/Stan/Patty story line but not happy to see it replaced with spirits and musical numbers.

Exactly! It's like an odd crossover of Glee and a Dickens play.

[RealReality]

I definitely think it's time to stop dead candy and the surreal scenes.  

Her death and corresponding episode were so powerful and Everytime she is in screen it makes it less powerful.  Candy left on such a high note and now she is pray tells angry ghost?  She sounds like she is having a fantastic time in the afterlife, why hang out with praytell?

It's also just been two episodes since we had ghost candy..  let's just live in the real world for a few episodes.....

I generally just don't care for TV shows with musical numbers so this episode wasn't my favorite, but I knew I would listen to Patti lupones number and I knew it would be good.  

Has no idea she was conniving that whole time....but anytime I get to see Electra act right, I'll take it!

[Starchild]

12 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

It looked like bags of hospital refuse.

I thought it was a bunch of wigs.

[LittleIggy]

4 hours ago, SlutAssBitchAssHor said:

I think they might be saving the apartment for a makeover moment. That's the only reason I can think of that would warrant the condition. I mean at least some cosmetic changes could have been made by now. 

I’m sure there are thrift stores and second-hand furniture stores they could get some decent stuff from. Nobody is saying the place should look professionally decorated, just that it doesn’t look like a squatter camp.

[tennisgurl]

15 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Papi's "sorry about your dyslexia" totally cracked me up.

And he was so earnest about it! Even in episodes where Papi isn't around much, he is always a highlight for me this season. 

Any episode that is Pray centric will be a win for me, and Billy Porter just killed it every second, with the acting and the singing. The Man That Got Away was a real stand out, especially singing to his deceased lover, and the whole conversation he hallucinated having with his monster of a step father. Brrrr that was nasty, guy made me want to take a shower and scrub my skin clean after just five minutes of screen time. His angry freak out seemed really realistic, but of course he comes back  to his usual fabulous self after some weird spirit visitations. 

 Fredricka is an evil piece of crap, but god gang does Patti have some pipes on her! I dont care if the show was an excuse to let all of these super talented people, I loved it all the same! It was awesome seeing everyone from the Balls coming together for Blanca when her salon got shut down, its always great when the whole community bands together to help each other out. 

Yeah I really want to just climb in my Tardis and head back to 1990 New York and offer to help decorate the Evangelistas apartment.  Its not a bad place, they just have to spruce it up a bit! I just feel like Blanca  would insist that her kids make their home more...home-y considering how much her family means to her.

Candy is getting more screen time dead than she EVER did alive!

Edited July 25, 2019 by tennisgurl

[HorrrGoodnight]

5 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

I’m sure there are thrift stores and second-hand furniture stores they could get some decent stuff from. Nobody is saying the place should look professionally decorated, just that it doesn’t look like a squatter camp.

I agree. When I say "they" I mean the show, lol. I feel like they may be holding out for a big makeover or something? Like we all said there's no reason they could not have spruced it up in all this time.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

The reason I buy their apartment not looking great is that they’d rather put their money into looking great at the balls.

[pasdetrois]

This episode was a bit of a mess. Too much going on, too much clumsy exposition via bad script writing (Dyslexia!). I enjoyed the singing but I was disappointed.

[sugarbaker design]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The reason I buy their apartment not looking great is that they’d rather put their money into looking great at the balls.

Exactly!  I love the way the camera focuses on the broken glass, the blanket in the window.  It tells me this group is still a bunch of kids playing house.

[Blakeston]

17 hours ago, Ohwell said:

I never got the impression that Candy was such an important character in the show, so I don't know why they keep bringing Dead Candy back. 

I suspect that Ryan Murphy feels bad for putting the actress (one of the stronger ones on the show) out of a paycheck, and wants to throw some more work her way. He's already announced that she'll appear on the next season of American Horror Story.

Also, I think the makers of the show see her as representing a somewhat iconic transwoman (Venus Xtravaganza), now that they've given her Venus's death. They probably think that every appearance packs a huge dramatic punch - which it could, if they didn't show her so often.

[qtpye]

2 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

Exactly!  I love the way the camera focuses on the broken glass, the blanket in the window.  It tells me this group is still a bunch of kids playing house.

I love Evangelista but that is a pretty messed up set of priorities, particularly since only Blanca and Electra were paying rent for 2 years. There were 3-5 healthy strong young men living in that apartment at one time. At least they could invest in one weekend to paint and fix those windows.

[RealReality]

1 hour ago, Blakeston said:

I suspect that Ryan Murphy feels bad for putting the actress (one of the stronger ones on the show) out of a paycheck, and wants to throw some more work her way. He's already announced that she'll appear on the next season of American Horror Story.

Also, I think the makers of the show see her as representing a somewhat iconic transwoman (Venus Xtravaganza), now that they've given her Venus's death. They probably think that every appearance packs a huge dramatic punch - which it could, if they didn't show her so often.

So much this.  I really liked candy, I think that with more time and exposing I would have loved candy. 

Her death packed a punch and her send off was beautiful.  But constantly seeing her just softens the impact.

Her character was more in death than in life and maybe because the audience hadn't gotten to know her so well.  

As @SlutAssBitchAssHor said....let me miss her for a minute before I get weekly Scooby Doo ghost appearances.

I think the actress is beautiful and amazing so I hope she does big things.

[Ohwell]

While her death by murder was sad, Candy never made an impression on me so I never took her seriously. At best, she was a kind of comic relief with the skit being between her and Pray Tell.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

The show has become problematic now.  Where can it go?  They introduced the culture and the particular issues engendered.  Fabulous.  What new situations can keep things fresh?  As much as I enjoy the Balls, we've already had violence in them.  The categories are inventive and they are essentially the same.  

New characters at the expense of Blanca, Angel, and company?  Good luck with that, Mr. Producer. 

TPTB really has no choice, imo, but to take things to alternate realities as they have done recently.  Reality inevitably takes everything to some very tough places.  Would folks keep watching as most everyone/thing declines?  How many seasons can be squeezed out of it all? 

[Gummo]

18 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

TPTB really has no choice, imo, but to take things to alternate realities as they have done recently. 

I disagree. As a high-gloss period soap opera (which ultimately is what Pose is), there are many directions they can go. There are loads of different characters to follow outside the core circle; and even the characters of the core circle can keep growing and changing (if the writing is good).

Not every gay person in New York in 1990 got AIDS and died. To say that fantasy is the only alternative because reality is going to go badly for everyone just doesn't have to be. It wasn't that way in real life.

As we've already seen, there's been love & loss, hope & despair, some characters planning a future, others giving up. Relationships change (how many times have we seen Blanca and Electra cross back & forth from I love you to I hate you). There's so much yet to show.

2 more notes: 

- I used to think NO ONE could or should every attempt the song "The Man That Got Away" again. Billy Porter proved me wrong.

- Even though I remember it winning tons of awards when it came out, I never saw the doc "Paris Is Burning" until last weekend. It's practically a must if you love Pose. Not only individual characters, there are actual plot points in the show taken from the documentary.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

3 hours ago, Gummo said:

I disagree. As a high-gloss period soap opera (which ultimately is what Pose is), there are many directions they can go. 

I fully agree the structural elements of the show are soap opera.  yet, the power and specialness of it is that it aspires to honor and inform the lives of the gay community of that era.  If one were to insist to Billy Porter, or any of the cast, that all they are really doing is presenting a soap opera, one would get quite the reaction.   

Not every gay person in New York in 1990 got AIDS and died. To say that fantasy is the only alternative because reality is going to go badly for everyone just doesn't have to be. It wasn't that way in real life.

If one contracted AIDS until the mid-90s, it was a death sentence.  The "cocktails" had minor success in staving off HIV becoming AIDS, but those results were very far from the norm until then.  In 1991, which is where the show is (and I lived in Manhattan) this season, the odds would have been overwhelming that Pray and Blanca would become very, very, ill within a couple of years.  Of course, the show could fib and make them the vanguard of the fortunate folks for whom the advances in medicine worked.  But, Pray's reaction to the med in this ep belies that happy outcome.

As we've already seen, there's been love & loss, hope & despair, some characters planning a future, others giving up. Relationships change (how many times have we seen Blanca and Electra cross back & forth from I love you to I hate you). There's so much yet to show.

Yes.  But, then it really does become a full-on soap opera.  How many tablecloths can Elektra pull before it becomes tiresome (It already is, to me)?  How many back and forths of ally to blood enemy before it becomes boring?  How many medical scares for a given character(s) before it's unfortunately cliche?  Most certainly, Murphy could squeeze out more seasons.  However, they would not have nearly the impact to date.  Lord knows he stretched out Glee beyond all recognition.  

None of this makes me right or wrong.  Thanks for the reply.  YMMV!

[Gummo]

LR, thanks for your thoughtful reply to my post.

I've lived in New York (Brooklyn) since the late '70s. I lost my best friend (we went all the way back to junior high) to AIDS in '86. He had a series of 'unexplained' illnesses in the early 80s, then contracted full-blown AIDS in 1984. It was still so mysterious I had to don what looked like a hazmat suit to visit him in the hospital. So I'm not trying to make light of the plague.

But no matter how serious the central situation is, I think the way the show shamelessly manipulates our emotions definitely places it in the realm of soap opera.  That's not necessarily a bad thing -- there's only so many ways you can go when trying to tell a story about this time & place & community -- straight ahead serious drama; very dark comedy; melodrama; or soap opera. Pose uses all these elements but as a serialized story that concentrates on relationships between a core group of characters I just think 'soap opera' covers it best. No matter, it's just a label and if Pose teaches us anything, it's that labels are ultimately reductive.

1 hour ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

How many tablecloths can Elektra pull before it becomes tiresome (It already is, to me)?  How many back and forths of ally to blood enemy before it becomes boring?  How many medical scares for a given character(s) before it's unfortunately cliche?  Most certainly, Murphy could squeeze out more seasons.  However, they would not have nearly the impact to date.  Lord knows he stretched out Glee beyond all recognition.  

I think all of this is possible, given enough seasons. I just don't think we're there yet, though season 2 is relying much more heavily on fantasy and music than season 1. I happen to like it (when you have singers and dancers of this caliber, by all means find an excuse for them to sing and dance!) but like every other storytelling choice, it can quickly go to cliche and repetition. Some on this board are fed up with the fantasy and musical numbers already; I'm not, but who knows? Maybe Murphy's metier is the limited series? I didn't watch his Gianni Versace series, but my spouse raved about it.

So we'll see. 

[Lunula]

On 7/24/2019 at 1:49 AM, Lonesome Rhodes said:

I'm still trying to figure out the point of the dialogue with Pray's Stepdad.  Did that man actually insist he didn't know what he did/said that was so bad?!!!!  

On 7/24/2019 at 12:26 PM, Blakeston said:

Many child molesters really don't believe they've done anything wrong, so I could believe that the stepfather felt that way deep down.

This.

I had a friend in college who was sexually abused by her uncle between the ages of 7-10 and was subsequently arrested and prosecuted. Apparently he also abused her sister who was 2 years younger than her and he sat in court and blamed them both because they were "so sexy" and they "seduced him." Almost three decades later I still remember that story because it was just so fucking twisted and disgusting. Your 5-year-old and 7-year-old nieces were sexy and seduced you...

I still get shivers.

[Scarlett45]

On 7/29/2019 at 6:11 PM, Lunula said:

This.

I had a friend in college who was sexually abused by her uncle between the ages of 7-10 and was subsequently arrested and prosecuted. Apparently he also abused her sister who was 2 years younger than her and he sat in court and blamed them both because they were "so sexy" and they "seduced him." Almost three decades later I still remember that story because it was just so fucking twisted and disgusting. Your 5-year-old and 7-year-old nieces were sexy and seduced you...

I still get shivers.

@Lonesome Rhodes I think the point of Pray Tell’s Step Dad was to show the trauma he went through as a child, and how he came out on the other side to be the fabulous man he is despite of what that awful man did to him. It would’ve been understandable had he internalized the trauma and thought it was “his fault” for being gay (like how many young teen girls internalize the trauma of being preyed on because they thought the guy was attractive or it was “their fault” for leading him on). 

Sadly the types like that nasty step father and your friend’s uncle are everywhere. As a young black boy (he said he was 12) with a single mom, maybe just figuring out his sexuality he was prey for that creep. Especially back in the 1960s, when a girl child might have been told to keep an eye out for a predatory man or to tell a female elder if someone touched her I don’t think black boys of that time got the same lessons. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Blance & Pray Tell's message:

Protest:

[aradia22]

I was excited for this one because it was at least co-written by Our Lady J but it was tonally all over the place and a bit boring. 

I still 100% do not understand the point of Patti Lupone's character. Are we supposed to hate her? Love to hate her? She's cartoonishly evil but then she says stuff that makes me think they want her to be mean but soft on the inside... kind of like a Sue Sylvester character. I did like that line at the end when she was like... I couldn't be an actress because I don't like people telling me what to do. From Patti Lupone... LOL

It cheapens the deaths of Candy and Costas to keep bringing them back. For a second I loved it. But then she was urging Pray to commit suicide and I was like... WTF is the point of this? I can appreciate maybe wanting to suggest that people aren't totally gone once they've died. But the problem is that on a TV show, bringing an actor back feels the same as the character being alive. 

Am I going to complain about Billy Porter singing "The Man that Got Away"? No. I am going to complain about how it was directed. It was all so ghoulish with him walking down that empty corridor and singing to that audience. If you're going fantasy sequence, go fantasy sequence. Costas was in full health. Why present the audience that way... especially since some of them had their makeup done quickly so they looked more like extras on the Walking Dead? Again, it was a ghoulish juxtaposition of Porter in all his glamour while his audience could barely muster a smile. Why? Why would they do that?

Also, what kind of a fucked up song choice was that from Sandra? 

There were things I liked this episode. For all the nonsense dream sequences, I liked that they let Pray Tell be an adult. Part of being an adult is not being mature all the time. It's not being perfect. It's having a tantrum and not agreeing to be coddled like a child. Also, the way he said "fuck you" to Blanca was perfect. This episode wasn't very subtle but when they give him room to flex, he most certainly can.

Our Lady J seemed to be having a blast this time in her silent pianist part. 

When Patti Lupone sings, she is flawless. Even if I didn't think this was the right crowd for a number from Follies, it was better than what the nurse chose to sing. Woof.

It was fun... and the song fit her character, but am I supposed to believe that Elektra saw Madonna in Dick Tracy?

The final performance was perfect. It was great to see everyone together finally having fun and being uplifted by music. And Billy Porter singing Stevie Wonder is just... mwah! It was perfect for his voice.

That said, all the musical performances made the episode feel bloated. I don't need Pose to become Glee 2.0. 

When Frederica drove up to the protest outside the salon, it was filmed and edited crazily. With the music cue and the way it was shot, I thought for sure her son was going to have a gun and shoot someone.

[aradia22]

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I don't know what else they could have done, but I was interested in the conversation between Pray Tell and his hospital roommate - PT's assumption of the man being a queen and the other man shutting him down; I would have liked to see more on that.

To me, he was definitely gay. He was just asserting 1) his difference and 2) his masculinity. He didn't want to be a queen. He thought being educated and being integrated in whatever way into the mainstream world, that realness they're always trying to display at balls, would save him but at the end of the day, it didn't. 

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But her actually believing she could get Johnny Matthis to play that dingy hospital room? That's a whole new level of naivete. It reminded me of Rose on The Golden Girls thinking she could get Bob Hope to emcee their benefit. Girl, get it together.

That was insanity. For a second I thought maybe the cabaret had become a bigger event. But nope. Of course his agent isn't returning your calls. GIRL.

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Devil’s advocate on the fixer upper apartment: when you live in a place for a long time, you stop noticing some of the shittiness. Plus these characters all have a lot going on in their lives, and I assume most of their money goes to fashion.

Beige walls are one thing. But broken glass, peeling paint, mattresses on the floor? They need to get it together. 

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What new situations can keep things fresh? [...] New characters at the expense of Blanca, Angel, and company?  Good luck with that, Mr. Producer. [...] TPTB really has no choice, imo, but to take things to alternate realities as they have done recently.  Reality inevitably takes everything to some very tough places.  Would folks keep watching as most everyone/thing declines?  How many seasons can be squeezed out of it all? 

Actually, to me the problem isn't soap opera writing, it's sitcom writing. Or procedural writing, same difference. Basically, the characters aren't really being allowed to grow and change. They're not allowed to behave organically. 

For example, instead of teaching Vogue classes at the Y, let's say Damon auditions for a small scale ballet/modern dance company. In spite of his training (did he ever go back and graduate?) maybe the other dancers look down on him and we see how that plays out. Or maybe highly sexed Ricky starts dating again and Damon gets jealous. And they get into a confrontation about how Damon doesn't want to be with Ricky because he can't trust him but he also doesn't want him to be with anyone else because he still loves him. Let the characters be really flawed and therefore really human. There was more of that in season 1. Instead of letting all the modeling jobs come so easily for Angel, maybe let's see her on go-sees. She's been clocked before. Maybe let's see her be uncomfortable undressing in front of designers or hanging out with other models instead of inventing skeevy photographers as temporary antagonists. Go into the reality of what her life would be. I don't think nail art was as big in the 90's but maybe Blanca has trouble drumming up business so she starts catering to a more specific clientele. Maybe Pray starts a fashion line.

This is writing 101. Figure out what the characters want. Show how they succeed or fail on the way to either getting or not getting what they want. 

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Maybe Murphy's metier is the limited series? I didn't watch his Gianni Versace series, but my spouse raved about it.

I didn't think it was perfect but it definitely had focus. Part of it was that they had to adhere to real life events. But Andrew was also a character with a clear personality and motivation. We knew what he wanted and we watched him try to make it happen episode to episode. Sometimes he succeeded, sometimes he failed. These characters used to have that but the writers seem to have lost their way. Damon got into school and was training. They kind of messed that up but they can get it back on track. Ricky wanted Damon but what he really needs is to find a place of belonging and home and learn what he wants for himself besides a romantic partner. Angel thought she wanted Stan and now she has Papi but I think what she really needs is to be accepted for who she is, to assimilate but on her own terms. And just because Angel and Papi are great together, it doesn't mean they can't still have relationship issues sometimes. No relationship is perfect all the time. Blanca wanted to leave her mark on the world. She wanted to have a legendary house and build something to last. I know Saint Blanca is a joke but I can see her doing something charitable. Maybe she wants to help more than people than her house/family and volunteers at a shelter that takes in LGBT youth. Maybe she decides she wants to be a photographer and capture the ball scene in a way that will live on forever. Idk, but her story should be a logical extension of her personality and character motivations.