S04.E08: Years, Continents, Bloodshed

[Cthulhudrew]

Did anyone else feel like there were a few too many false positives this season? It's admittedly been a while since I last watched seasons 1-3 of VM, but I don't recall Veronica and Keith going back and forth between so many different rabbit holes before? The "is he/isn't he" with Pizza Guy in the last episode alone was a bit much, not to mention adding in all the calls to the chief of police that ended up being incorrect.

[Affogato]

Just now, Cthulhudrew said:

Did anyone else feel like there were a few too many false positives this season? It's admittedly been a while since I last watched seasons 1-3 of VM, but I don't recall Veronica and Keith going back and forth between so many different rabbit holes before? The "is he/isn't he" with Pizza Guy in the last episode alone was a bit much, not to mention adding in all the calls to the chief of police that ended up being incorrect.

Yeah i got bored of it. 

[KAOS Agent]

13 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

having just watched a lot of the show, there isn't as much Logan as I remembered, and while I wish some other supporting characters had gotten some better subplots (Wallace!!) Logan never takes over the show, beyond his family life being important to several of the mysteries and events of the first two seasons, and is certainly never getting more screen time than Veronica. 

S1 had two actors it could afford to have in every episode, Kristen Bell and Enrico Colantoni. That's it.  Percy Daggs had the second most appearances with 20. Veronica was in almost every scene of the season. It was a crushing schedule. By S2, they gave some other characters side plots to give Kristen a break. It wasn't fan service or love for specific characters that led to these stories, it was Kristen not being able to take another season working 18 hour days for eight months straight.

At no point did any character come even remotely close to eclipsing Veronica in terms of screen time. That continued in this latest season. Veronica has always been the focus. Maybe what ends up happening to skew people's perspective is that because she's almost always onscreen, there isn't a whole lot of mystery about the character. We see everything she does and we see it from her perspective. She even voice overs her thoughts. She's the lead of the show. If you really hated her, you probably wouldn't be watching the show. Other characters offer better opportunities for discussion and for fandom to get really heated. Logan is the prime example. His character was very dynamic, which got him a ton of fans who'd defend him to the end, and then there was a large contingent who hated him, which meant he was extremely polarizing in the fandom. 

It's clear that they wanted to neuter his dynamism in this season. I think it was an attempt to bore fans with Logan so that they could move on more easily from his death. If he's just a boring regular guy, there's nothing to get excited about and fans wouldn't be so disappointed in never seeing him again. Obviously, this didn't seem to work.

Edited July 26, 2019 by KAOS Agent

[Jediknight]

On 7/24/2019 at 7:23 AM, krankydoodle said:

I was also annoyed that we didn't see Weevil in the last episode. I wish he had been included in that post-time jump segment, possibly as one of the businesses that had been forced out, and with a moment showing he and Veronica had mended their relationship to some degree. A goodbye hug with Wallace would've been nice, too.

Weevil's probably Clyde's mechanic.  You're selling classic cars it's good to have a mechanic, and working on vintage classic cars, Clyde would want the best, and that would pay damn well.

Would have liked to have seen Weevil and Veronica make peace, and for Weevil to call Keith "Sheriff" one last time.  Did like that Weevil's sister confirmed that Weevil had a crush on Veronica.

[CarobCake]

So I just realized that the episode title is a reference to this scene:

Way to rub it in RT

[David Selig]

For me this last episode largely ruined what has been a pretty good season until then. Keith and Veronica acted like complete idiots the whole episode to make the plot work. The cherry on top was the bomb defusing scene which was dumb on so many levels. They arrived in time to get everyone to evacuate but then decided that Keith must risk his life to prevent a bit of property damage to the school. 

Then there's Logan's death, of course. So poorly written. Even if Keith and Veronica were dumb enough to forget about what the murderer left in the car, the police should have checked that car tight away for possible evidence. And Veronica realising what was going 20 seconds before the bomb went off was so corny. If Rob Thomas didn't feel LoVe should be a thing anymore, he should have just had them break up and go their separate ways. Or at least get Logan a proper death scene, not this poorly written mess. 

The idea of Veronica travelling the country alone and solving cases doesn't appeal to me. The Keith Veronica relationship has always been the core of the show and without it I really doubt it would work. And frankly, Rob Thomas isn't particularly good at writing interesting mysteries and the show has always been much better at character development and interactions than in the pure sleuthing stuff. 

[blondiec0332]

I just rewatched the movie.  I felt like I needed to cleanse my palate. When I first saw the movie I wanted to see more of Veronica Mars but now I'm wishing that had been the end. It's better to imagine how the characters went forward than see where they were in season four.

[secnarf]

11 hours ago, luvenan said:

So I just realized that the episode title is a reference to this scene:

Way to rub it in RT

You just realized? I realized the instant I saw the title. Made it clear that Logan would die.

There was also a callback to Logan's 'epic' speech in the movie, before Logan ships out.

[thelegacies87]

So I have to say, it's pretty discouraging that some people are blaming Kristen Bell for Lgoan getting killed over because of comments she had 15 years ago about how Logan was toxic for Veronica(which, at the time he was. Of course Veronica became toxic for Logan this season...). To blame one of the few actresses out there who could is popular enough to be a reason for a 15 year old cult show to come back is a little discouraging. 'm sure Kristen Bell had nothing to do with the decision. It's really unfair to make a villain out of a woman, because "It's what she wanted" It signifies some pretty negative stereotypes about women. 

As for Logan's death...I felt it was pretty cheap, wasn't given the proper time to land, and came out of left field. It was also on the cruel side "Oh look they're married. Oh look, he's dead while Veronica is still wearing what they got married in!" It felt like something out of a soap opera and kind of beneath the writing for the show. 

I kinda wish they would've explored more about how Veronica was the toxic component of this relationship. I think Logan should've left her at the alter and should've said, "I love you but you need help" because she REALLY does need help. LIke, I wasn't a fan of "Veronica is the toughest person I know" voicemail because, she's tough but she's also severely effed up, and that's part o the toughness. Logan got over Lily's death, his dad being a psycho and his mom killing herself. Veronica DID NOT get over Lily's death, her mom abandoning her, being raped, and losing everything(and witnessing just how scummy people are). ANd now she's lost Logan and I feel like instead of addressing her issues, it's just piling on more. 

I love that Veronica is damaged. I loved this season. It felt much closer to season one than anything else. But I do think that season 5 needs to be about Veronica addressing her damage, not piling more on and I felt Logan leaving her, and forcing her to really look at herself would've been the better avenue for it, not Logan dying. So it's a shame that the "cheap" thrill is how it ended. ANd it's also a shame that LoVe is again dominating the Veronica Mars conversation. For a show about a female lead, it was a real shame when season 3 became more LoVe than anything else(yes, to all the "Logan didn't have much screen time" comments..He did, in season 3, aka the worst season). 

Overall, I definitely hope they get a season five. I don't want this show for LoVe or for Logan, though I know some fans do, and some are very passionate about that(I remember back in season 3, when fans just RAILED on anything Veronica did against Logan). I watch this show for Veronica. I like things they set up but they NEED to address Veronica's issues and not just embrace it. I don't want Veronica to become one of those "Just rebelin'" detectives,  because those are boring. Veronica was such a more complicated character than that, because despite the damage, she was..as Wallace had said, "A marshmallow". So to just harden and harden, and harden, and regress, regress, regress, you reach a moot point where she risks being a cliche. 

So IMO a lot rides on season 5, which like I said, I hope there is one. I understand fans who don't(to a point). But I will repeat, let's not blame Kristen Bell.  

Edited July 27, 2019 by thelegacies87

[Affogato]

6 hours ago, thelegacies87 said:

So IMO a lot rides on season 5, which like I said, I hope there is one. I understand fans who don't(to a point). But I will repeat, let's not blame Kristen Bell.  

She is a producer so she has some control.

she did not have to do the show. She does not need the money or the work. And her after interviews sypport the direction of the show.

so it is fair to include her in the conversation. 

Edited July 27, 2019 by Affogato

[Delphi]

On 7/25/2019 at 5:47 PM, marshmallows said:

Another thing that baffles me is KB thinks Logan is toxic, but has she ever taken a good look at her own character Veronica? Bc the show I watched pretty much always had Veronica being the one that screwed up the LoVe relationship. But w/e.

I don't think that's a fair point.   Speaking for myself,  and I tend to be the "destructive"person in my relationships.   I recognized my last partner's toxic traits.   And we realized that two people with our... unique qualities were never going to fix each other.   Pulled together by trauma doesn't necessarily mean the relationship will ever be healthy or should last. 

[Kel Varnsen]

11 hours ago, David Selig said:

For me this last episode largely ruined what has been a pretty good season until then. Keith and Veronica acted like complete idiots the whole episode to make the plot work. 

That is exactly why I think she needs to get out Neptune. She is so good in Neptune that for mysteries to be actual threats you either have to turn Veronica into an idiot or/and turn the villian into The Riddler or something.

[Affogato]

5 minutes ago, Delphi said:

I don't think that's a fair point.   Speaking for myself,  and I tend to be the "destructive"person in my relationships.   I recognized my last partner's toxic traits.   And we realized that two people with our... unique qualities were never going to fix each other.   Pulled together by trauma doesn't necessarily mean the relationship will ever be healthy or should last. 

This is pretty much the definition of Logan and Veronica’s relationship. 

[leighdear]

Has anybody mentioned yet that a member of the Naval Intelligence community would never be able to get a marriage license without the fiance having a full background check done on them first?  That crazy military!  

I was thinking "Well at least V would have Widow's benefits from Logan",  but they weren't even married in the eyes of the government yet, as I doubt he'd done any dependent paperwork for her.

Anybody part of the Military community knows how unlikely their marriage plotline was.  In a legal sense, that is.  

Edited July 27, 2019 by leighdear

[Whimsy]

10 hours ago, blondiec0332 said:

I just rewatched the movie.  I felt like I needed to cleanse my palate. When I first saw the movie I wanted to see more of Veronica Mars but now I'm wishing that had been the end. It's better to imagine how the characters went forward than see where they were in season four.

I rewatched the movie for a cleanse too. Made me even sadder. 

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

She is a producer so she has some control.

she did not have to do the show. She does not need the money or the work. And her after interviews sypport the direction of the show.

so it is fair to include her in the conversation. 

Exactly. I wasn’t placing any blame on KB until I started reading and listening to her interviews. 

[Affogato]

31 minutes ago, leighdear said:

Has anybody mentioned yet that a member of the Naval Intelligence community would never be able to get a marriage license without the fiance having a full background check done on them first?  That crazy military!  

I was thinking "Well at least V would have Widow's benefits from Logan",  but they weren't even married in the eyes of the government yet, as I doubt he'd done any dependent paperwork for her.

Anybody part of the Military community knows how unlikely their marriage plotline was.  In a legal sense, that is.  

If she ends up with benefits it will turn out he did everything before he asked her. 

But the lack of attention to detail Makes his plan to do a mystery based show ill advised. 

[thelegacies87]

2 hours ago, Affogato said:

She is a producer so she has some control.

she did not have to do the show. She does not need the money or the work. And her after interviews sypport the direction of the show.

so it is fair to include her in the conversation. 

An actor who is a producer is usual a producer in name only. It's a way for them to get more money. 

And Kristen Bell owns her big start to Rob Thomas. And part of the trust between creator/actor is doing what they think is best for the character. So are you saying Kristen Bell should've said to Rob Thomas, the man who gave her, her big break, a good friend, "No, if you kill off Logan I won't do the show!" ANd after, she was supposed to trash the decision? 

KB obviously agrees with the direction, but from what I read, Thomas called her, told her the plan for the season 4 and the big twist, and her reaction was positive. Of course it was. Maybe she thought she'd get a real meaty scene of reaction to Logan's death in season 4(she didn't....which again, I think the death was too rushed, too soap opera-y/bad 80's cop show twisty, so I'm not exactly a fan of it either) OR maybe she thinks it will give her tons of juicy material in season 5. But I don't think she had any influential at all on the script nor do I think, as some have stated, that she didn't like Logan, wanted him gone and so he's gone.

[Affogato]

How much did Veronica remind me of old Logan in this season? He has found the solution for his reckless need for fight or flight? For conflict. With that satisfied he can contemplate a wuiet home, children, a place to recuperate before he goes out again. 

During the show Veronica’s PI work was her fix but now it is dull, repetitive and unsatisfying. She looks towards Logan for excitement, and  drinking, drugs, flirts with infidelity. She becomes the toxic one. 

And she can’t afford therapy and her dad isn’t making money—rat jobs. she is stuck. And she loves logan and doesn’t want to lose him but the marriage seems like what it is, a trap.  

They could have moved on with this and deal with the changes in Neptune. They didn’t have to blow it up. 

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, thelegacies87 said:

An actor who is a producer is usual a producer in name only. It's a way for them to get more money. 

And Kristen Bell owns her big start to Rob Thomas. And part of the trust between creator/actor is doing what they think is best for the character. So are you saying Kristen Bell should've said to Rob Thomas, the man who gave her, her big break, a good friend, "No, if you kill off Logan I won't do the show!" ANd after, she was supposed to trash the decision? 

KB obviously agrees with the direction, but from what I read, Thomas called her, told her the plan for the season 4 and the big twist, and her reaction was positive. Of course it was. Maybe she thought she'd get a real meaty scene of reaction to Logan's death in season 4(she didn't....which again, I think the death was too rushed, too soap opera-y/bad 80's cop show twisty, so I'm not exactly a fan of it either) OR maybe she thinks it will give her tons of juicy material in season 5. But I don't think she had any influential at all on the script nor do I think, as some have stated, that she didn't like Logan, wanted him gone and so he's gone.

Ii wasn’t attacking Kristen Bell.  I was clarifying.  

She was in the early talks. She had the option of bringing up alternatives and the option of walking away. She probably put some of her own money on the line and actively sold the idea. 

[Melina22]

17 hours ago, David Selig said:

then decided that Keith must risk his life to prevent a bit of property damage to the school. 

This literally never occurred to me till now, but you're right! How did I not see that? 

[elzin]

I enjoy LoVe as a couple, but I'm not a hardcore shipper. I hated Piz as V's boyfriend, but I don't need to see LoVe together instead because I'm invested. It's fine if they break up.

But this? Ugh.

He could have left her at the altar. Terrible, but understandable.

They could have broken up over whether or not to have kids. He clearly wanted kids and she didn't. That's a big difference to reconcile.

She could have cheated with Leo. Not entirely out of character if it's an arc devoted to her just making bad decisions. Terrible too, but understandable, especially after a dream that hot.

He could have shipped out, fate of couple ambiguous.

Or even ended it with the explosion and skip the One Year Later. I just finished the Farseer book series and one thing they said repeatedly in the last few books was don't do something you can't undo until you have fully taken into account what you can't do once it's done. Veronica can go back to Neptune, but Logan is dead dead* and it can't be undone. Maybe sitting on that for a while and thinking about it would have been better. Have him be in a coma, have her not be able to be there for him if his recovery made him asshole Logan. Have her want to leave, but he wants to stay. His fate being ambiguous gives options but now it's gone. And I've seen Veronica grieve Lily and Meg and the bus kids. I don't need sad V again, even if it's a different sad.

I don't like the term Fridge thrown around but this really felt like a good definition. Character killed out of inconvenience to some other plot, especially to give someone TRAUMA.

It felt forced and inorganic.

I too don't want to watch Veronica Mars doing a modern day Murder, She Wrote, going from town to town solving crimes, especially if SHOCKING is the watchword. It's fine if the majority of the people from Neptune aren't in it, just Keith and Wallis and Cliff REALLY make sense regardless. I don't have faith in the writers to be satisfying. Not catering to my personal whims, but satisfying.

Oh and I forget which thread it was but someone asked about Pony's name. In the Thousand-Dollar Tan Line book, they couldn't decide on a name and kept calling the gigantic dog a Pony until she didn't answer to anything else.

* Yes I know no body seen and no one said dead, but if he weren't dead it'd be crappy of the therapist to share his message and it'd feel even CHEAPER to have him be alive somehow and made us think he was dead between S4 and a potential S5.

[leighdear]

So can she go back to Leo now?  If there is going to be a season 5, she can be a consultant to the FBI, and work with Leo on his cases. 

I was always a huge VeLe shipper.  I would watch that show, as she could Skype in Keith on the cases.  And Mac!  Yeah!

[moonshine71]

9 hours ago, leighdear said:

Has anybody mentioned yet that a member of the Naval Intelligence community would never be able to get a marriage license without the fiance having a full background check done on them first?  That crazy military!  

I was thinking "Well at least V would have Widow's benefits from Logan",  but they weren't even married in the eyes of the government yet, as I doubt he'd done any dependent paperwork for her.

Anybody part of the Military community knows how unlikely their marriage plotline was.  In a legal sense, that is.  

How would they be prevented from getting a marriage license? That comes from the county, most don't even ask about the applicants employment, much less whether they have a security clearance. Likely, the reverse would happen. After getting married, his clearance would be subject to a review pending an investigation of his new wife. So yes, it would put his security clearance at risk, especially considering the shit Veronica gets into. But he already put it at risk dropping ecstasy, so...

[leighdear]

Actually, Veronica would probably already have been subjected to the background check, as they were legally living together.  I forgot about that part. 

And no, the county you get married in doesn't care about what you do for a living.  But if you hold a clearance, the government definitely wants to know what you're doing. 

I had to change my wedding date for the Navy to finish my paperwork when I married my pilot husband.  We hadn't lived together, but he had to inform his CO that we were getting married.  That was in the 80's though, things may be much different now. 

[weathered1]

So, after all of this time and my super-long ranty post . . . I'm still upset.

I don't know that I blame KB, per se, but her comments and reactions - from what I've seen and heard about, they've been pretty nonchalant and even kind of glib - make me veer a little bit in that direction. Many have said that RT and KB have long resented how popular Logan and the relationship became, and I think their comments since this all unfolded basically support that hypothesis. They want a cold, detached, fueled-by-constant-tragedy-and-pain Veronica, and their way of getting that was to deliver still another trauma by way of removing a feature from the show of which neither seemed to be a huge fan. 

That KB sees Veronica as a positive role model is kind of troubling. Granted, that's at least partly some spin because this is her character, she's promoting the show (and perhaps a future incarnation of it). The idea, though, that a strong, interesting female character is one who has to always be in pain and has to shed emotional ties, be closed off and nothing but sharp edges, and generally treats everyone around her terribly is awful and untrue. And there's some misogyny in the mix, too. 

To me, what would have played into Veronica dealing with personal issues, being forced to take a long hard look in the mirror at who she's become, etc., would have been to let the marriage stand because the bomb that was all set to explode said marriage? Was the relationship itself. 

As written, the two weren't compatible anymore because the characterization of each had gone in such radically different directions, which means that, as I see it, the marriage wouldn't have - indeed couldn't have - lasted. What's interesting about that, at least to me, is that when I decide to start shipping a pairing, I always want it to go the distance. In this case, though, I wouldn't have minded seeing LoVe come to an end because the relationship wasn't serving either of them particularly well. 

To that end, there were only a few ways it could have gone: Veronica would begin to chafe at the relationship and commitment which sort of fly in the face of the brittle loner RT and KB want her to be, so she likely would've eventually acted out and hurt Logan in such a way that the marriage became untenable.

Other options could've been that Logan began to resent Veronica's endless campaign to bring back his inner "bad boy" and either he would realize that they were hanging on to a relationship that had run its course/perceptions of one another that weren't true anymore and he would've ended it, or he'd finally be pushed too far, his former impulsivity and anger issues would begin to rise to the fore, and he'd act out in such a way that Veronica would be hurt (emotionally), and the marriage would become untenable. 

The aftermath of any of those options could've, say, fueled Veronica's need to travel and work in distant locales, all the while checking in with family and friends, going home between cases, etc. During those times, she could perhaps be confronted with the reality of Logan moving on in his quest to have a happy, stable life, which could result in that aforementioned long, hard look in the mirror Veronica would need to take to finally start to work on herself so that she could stop operating as the sum total of her defense mechanisms. (Perhaps down the road, they could've reunited or both could have come to terms with the fact that going their separate ways was the right call.)

All of that is to say that the ending was wholly unnecessary because if they really wanted more trauma and angst to serve as a driver for Veronica, the foundation had already been set for that, and exploring that would have let them have the Veronica they wanted (at least for a while) while also not alienating such a huge portion of the fanbase and cutting off so many interesting, complex, and yes, adult storylines in Neptune. 

That the ending that was chosen was just the capper to a season that was filled with shoddy writing in terms of characterizations, plot holes, and just a general lack of the cleverness, wit, and solid plotting that used to be hallmarks of this show makes me both sad and angry because it really didn't have to be this way. 

Edited July 28, 2019 by weathered1

[Jediknight]

10 hours ago, leighdear said:

Actually, Veronica would probably already have been subjected to the background check, as they were legally living together.  I forgot about that part.

I know she wasn't an FBI agent canonically, but it was the proposal for season 4, so if she could pass that background check, she was probably golden.  Also, that's it, in my head Agent Xena vouched for her, and that was enough.

And Logan did recommend Clarence Wiedman to be security for Maloof.  So, Wiedman could have been asked by somebody, and vouched for Veronica.  We know with his background, his word would be good.

Edited July 28, 2019 by Jediknight

[CarobCake]

On 7/27/2019 at 6:12 AM, secnarf said:

You just realized? I realized the instant I saw the title. Made it clear that Logan would die.

Yeah, I wasn't actually the kind of fan that had memorized this... I watched it over a decade ago, didn't remember the speech. But I guess for those who did it was a big spoiler. 

[Affogato]

5 hours ago, weathered1 said:

The aftermath of any of those options could've, say, fueled Veronica's need to travel and work in distant locales, all the while checking in with family and friends, going home between cases, etc. During those times, she could perhaps be confronted with the reality of Logan moving on in his quest to have a happy, stable life, which could result in that aforementioned long, hard look in the mirror Veronica would need to make to finally start to work on herself so that she could stop operating as the sum total of her defense mechanisms. 

Logan was able to begin his quest to have the life Wallace has, Ithink, because he has a  job which fed hos need for whatecer, fight and flight. Yes he needs someone at home to have hos lids, maintain friendships and allow him to step more and more into this life as he is able. 

Veronica hasn’t got the excitement in her job she’d hoped for and will do reckless or self destructive things to find it. She needs real work and real companions in her field to ground her and likely someone at home that Logan can’t be.

i did not immediately see this but it really is pretty sad. No killing Logan was not necessary and, in an attempt to make fans happy (probably)they made him into a superhero. Where does he go from there? But yeah they should have not married them and had him show up at a wallace party with his new wife in the next show. 

They haven’t left a path open for V to be happy or one where she gets or learns to take anything she needs. I fear she will have phone therapy with Logans old thrapist, i mean in the unlikely event this continues, and that is the part Kristen wants her daughters to see. 

[Affogato]

I think the easiest way to ‘fix’ the ending would be to reshoot the last ten minutes of the show and make a big deal of showing it before the 5th series. 

they realistically killed the relationship though. 

[Jenniferbug]

I think one of the things that bugs me about the comments and interviews post show (and even some of the critics reviews) is that this is all because of the movie. There's a narrative that fans got fan fiction for the movie and now they feel "entitled" to that in the show. But I don't remember anyone asking them to write Logan as a "Disney prince". He could have been a (mostly) functional adult who still had some rough edges, who still struggled with his temper, who was still witty, who struggled to deal with Veronica always putting herself in danger, etc. Instead we got a very sanded down version of Logan who was almost unrecognizable (personality wise) from before. I seem to remember a lot of fans after the movie saying that they were glad he got his life together, but that he didn't seem much like Logan anymore. So this narrative that "fans wanted him that way" so their hands were tied and they couldn't write for him anymore seems like deflection of blame to me. 

[colormeblue]

If I'd thought for one moment that RT wasn't going to take this revival seriously, I wouldn't have watched. When I first discovered the show, I enjoyed it well enough but became crazy obsessed once LoVe appeared. I even attended the fan event with the cast in Austin which is where I first realized that neither RT nor KB truly understood their fanbase or what they had in the ship of LoVe. I suspected that they actually believed Duncan (!!) was Veronica's true love. 

I liked the movie and don't understand the disdain about satisfying fans. Aren't we what sustains shows, books, movies, and merchandising? If any show should understand that, it's Veronica Mars. No, writers shouldn't pander or make the stories stupid but, as is obvious by the backlash over Logan's death, the narrative has to be respectful of its characters. This wasn't. I love Logan for himself, even independent of LoVe, and he didn't deserve to be treated like this. So basically he endured abuse, trauma, and heartache, managed to make a success of his life both personally and professionally, only to be senselessly killed. No.

But it wasn't just that. S4 took away the fun part of the original series with its little mysteries that let Veronica show her detective chops without all the angst. It also downgraded the LoVe relationship from something sparkling (they used to match each other quip for quip and have a meeting of the minds eventually) into something dull and depressing. I could've handled that had we seen them realistically attempt to work through their problems but all they did was have Veronica dismiss Logan's growth and him take it. That's not LoVe.

They also took away the biting social commentary that was such an integral part of S1. The show consistently pointed out the downfalls of privilege, the injustice of class warfare, the foibles of human weakness even in those we love, but also the healing power of good relationships. I thought we'd be getting more of that but nope, all we got was a dull bomber plot with the pizza guy.

There were plenty of angsty storylines they could've done. Wallace could've called Veronica into the HS for something and then wrestle with his conscience as an adult over her methods and/or the result. Logan could've needed her services with Navy buddies off-base and then have to live with the consequences of what she finds in his job. Or there could've been tension with him helping her but, because of his job, having to follow the rules in ways she doesn't. The Neptune police department could've still been corrupt in a less obvious way and have the Mars deal with that. There were plenty of rich stories they could've told but all RT and KB wanted to do was clear the way for a solo Veronica Mars, completely ignoring all that made the series great. It boggles the mind that they think having a Veronica who's emotionally stunted due to PTSD would be fun to watch.

As a fan, I'm both furious and deeply disappointed at how they ruined a show I adored. Like so many others, I'm out.

[moonshine71]

On 7/26/2019 at 11:12 PM, secnarf said:

There was also a callback to Logan's 'epic' speech in the movie, before Logan ships out.

Which didn't make sense, since he didn't remember saying it the next day.

I like Logan, I've found the relationship entertaining, but I've always found the swooning over this speech odd, since he banged Kendall later that night.

[Affogato]

5 hours ago, moonshine71 said:

Which didn't make sense, since he didn't remember saying it the next day.

I like Logan, I've found the relationship entertaining, but I've always found the swooning over this speech odd, since he banged Kendall later that night.

I felt he thought he’d ne er see Veronica again and wanted to make her feel bad. No o e here gets out alive thing. 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Jenniferbug said:

I think one of the things that bugs me about the comments and interviews post show (and even some of the critics reviews) is that this is all because of the movie. There's a narrative that fans got fan fiction for the movie and now they feel "entitled" to that in the show. But I don't remember anyone asking them to write Logan as a "Disney prince". He could have been a (mostly) functional adult who still had some rough edges, who still struggled with his temper, who was still witty, who struggled to deal with Veronica always putting herself in danger, etc. Instead we got a very sanded down version of Logan who was almost unrecognizable (personality wise) from before. I seem to remember a lot of fans after the movie saying that they were glad he got his life together, but that he didn't seem much like Logan anymore. So this narrative that "fans wanted him that way" so their hands were tied and they couldn't write for him anymore seems like deflection of blame to me. 

Good point. One of my big problems with season 4 is that there was very little middle ground for the characters. Everyone was either emotional healthy and boring or extremely damaged and destructive.

Even when characters changed it was from one extreme to the other. Keith goes from almost being unable function independently to being perfectly fine with a girlfriend and a replacement daughter. Weevil goes from a stable family man in the movie back to being the head of the PCH and a criminal in season 4. That kind of writing gets old really quickly.

I find the interviews so insulting to the fans. Just because I didn’t want to see Logan die in the end doesn’t mean I wanted “happy, blissful domestic Veronica”. It irritates that they seem to have gotten the message that people are upset because LoVe didn’t get a happy ending when the majority of people seem to be upset that LoVe and Neptune got a poorly written ending. 

[MichaelaRae]

On 7/20/2019 at 2:20 PM, backhometome said:

Based on what Francis is telling fans they basically got rid of Logan because RT and KB really disliked how Logan/LoVe overpowered the show.

So did I. It was the weakest part of the entire show, for me.

[marshmallows]

On 7/27/2019 at 7:45 AM, Delphi said:

I don't think that's a fair point.   Speaking for myself,  and I tend to be the "destructive"person in my relationships.   I recognized my last partner's toxic traits.   And we realized that two people with our... unique qualities were never going to fix each other.   Pulled together by trauma doesn't necessarily mean the relationship will ever be healthy or should last. 

No, it's a pretty fair point when KB is running around saying she wanted to remake this show for her daughters to watch bc she thinks Veronica is a role model. She clearly thinks Veronica is a great person who has endured trauma, while Logan is a shit person who endured trauma. 

Now this is NOT me negating your personal life experiences. Bc I can understand knowing that the person you are with is toxic, yet knowing what you are doing is toxic as well. Been there done that! But, KB is ignoring exactly how terrible Veronica can truly be and putting it all Logan.

Edited July 30, 2019 by marshmallows

[Euphony]

Whilst I am a huge Logan fan, I don't think I mind him dying on the happiest day of his life. Maybe because I thought he and Veronica had no chance of staying married. She refuses perfectly reasonable requests for couples counseling,  kinda mocks his therapy and actively encourages the behaviour he is working hard to modify. Best case scenario was him realizing it wasn't going to work, and leaving of his own volition.  Otherwise, I think Veronica's shitty attitude derails his progress. It was never going to be a happy ending. Him saying he wanted his kids to be like her really brought it home for me that what he wanted for himself (happy, stable family life) was really not what Veronica was after. If anything, she seemed a bit repelled by his tenderness with children. 

So he dies at a good spot in his life with a job that gives him purpose and a woman he loves as his wife. He dies as the man he wants to be. Teenage Logan probably would look at his life's trajectory and count it as a major win.

Edited July 30, 2019 by Euphony

[KittenPokerCheater]

I maintain that back in season two Logan remembered what he said after he'd had two tylenol and some coffee.*

*That's my story and I'm sticking to it. 

[Affogato]

3 hours ago, Euphony said:

Whilst I am a huge Logan fan, I don't think I mind him dying on the happiest day of his life. Maybe because I thought he and Veronica had no chance of staying married. She refuses perfectly reasonable requests for couples counseling,  kinda mocks his therapy and actively encourages the behaviour he is working hard to modify. Best case scenario was him realizing it wasn't going to work, and leaving of his own volition.  Otherwise, I think Veronica's shitty attitude derails his progress. It was never going to be a happy ending. Him saying he wanted his kids to be like her really brought it home for me that what he wanted for himself (happy, stable family life) was really not what Veronica was after. If anything, she seemed a bit repelled by his tenderness with children. 

So he dies at a good spot in his life with a job that gives him purpose and a woman he loves as his wife. He dies as the man he wants to be. Teenage Logan probably would look at his life's trajectory and count it as a major win.

Pretty sure this is exactly what RT intended. A sad but satisfying arc for Logan. Wallace and Keith, too, with mattie and Pony. Weevil probably does have a legit job with clyde and is the patriarch of his found and family. 

I’m angry about it. Make no mistake I am always in this for Veronica as a character and I’m angry that they chose to have her stagnate between shows and that Logan became a superhero. I’m angry that we win’t see what happens next play off these other characters. Or anyone. Having children isn’t an issue. A job that helps her understand and deal with her needs isn’t an issue. 

I’m annoyed that, for all of the no fanservice comments this was total bullshit fanservice. 

Edited July 30, 2019 by Affogato

[bybrandy]

Aside from how hosed Logan got (and my god) I'm really upset that they did all of that to Dick and then just left it hanging.  His dad is dead, and is responsible for killing somebody and then they kill off the person we've seen be most consistantly there for Dick and no reaction at all from Dick.  I know Dick is the dullest knife in the drawer but not going back to him after the death of his father?  That felt wrong to me.

And quite frankly, I thought the interesting part of a Veronica and Logan marriage would be that you have two people who are a little bit broken who maybe don't want a conventional life trying to figure out how to make that work.    There is so much more angst and drama when you are stuffed into that 600 square foot apartment with the dog and the everything and there isn't an easy exit door.   

Opportunity missed.   

But again.. Dick??  What happens to Dick?

On 7/30/2019 at 8:57 AM, KittenPokerCheater said:

I maintain that back in season two Logan remembered what he said after he'd had two tylenol and some coffee.*

*That's my story and I'm sticking to it. 

I just always assumed he was lying about not remembering.   

Edited August 1, 2019 by bybrandy

[snarktini]

On 7/24/2019 at 4:18 AM, justmehere said:

-This one isn't mine - I saw it in a comment elsewhere - but the bomb that killed Logan was way too convenient: The police would have confiscated Penn's bag and found the bomb. Or barring that somehow, the timing was too dependent on coincidence. Mid-day in Fiji? Why would Penn assume Veronica would be in her car right then? Likewise, it was too convenient that Logan went to move the car at that particular minute. So many other ways it could have gone, as many have mentioned.

Yeah, that really jumped out to me. It was not an ignition switch bomb, which would ensure at least one of them was in it. It was just a timer. And why that exact moment anyway? Did Penn supposedly know that was street sweeping time, and knew they always waited until the last minute? No one noticed the backpack? Why was street sweeping time in the dark the first time (when Logan skyped in and the cartel guys were watching) but in daylight this time? Lame.

Was also wondering about the friend. (I can't be the only one that spotted him as faking his "political consultant" job.) I'm assuming Penn hoped to frame him. How did he get him to meet there? Penn was a very busy guy. 

Not a fan of the end. Liked all the cameos, especially seeing Deputy Leo again. He was always one of my VM favs. Weevil, too. Veronica definitely should have tossed him solid amount of that finder's fee.

[Mezzaluna]

Just binge-watched the entire series in the past week. I ma NOT the target demographic - quite a bit older in fact - but I found the writing decent and LOVED the relationship between Veronica and Keith. Kristen and Rico have such obvious mutual affection and respect, and their dialogue sparkled.

But Rob Thomas, who damaged you so badly as a teenager? Did a pretty blonde girl turn you down for the prom? You had Logan do all that work with his shrink and make some peace with his past, marry Veronica, and then you do THAT? There are dozens of other ways you could have ended this season, but this was the stupidest. 

[RunningMarket]

Echoing many others here, I too could have used a quick recap of how major players were doing 1 year later - especially Dick and Weevil. I would have even accepted status quo, because at least it was something. The ending just seemed so unfinished.

[wingster55]

On 7/25/2019 at 9:19 PM, Cthulhudrew said:

Did anyone else feel like there were a few too many false positives this season? It's admittedly been a while since I last watched seasons 1-3 of VM, but I don't recall Veronica and Keith going back and forth between so many different rabbit holes before? The "is he/isn't he" with Pizza Guy in the last episode alone was a bit much, not to mention adding in all the calls to the chief of police that ended up being incorrect.

From what I remember the season 1 finale Lily’s murderer changed from Duncan to Logan to Aaron in the last episode alone. 

[Affogato]

7 hours ago, RunningMarket said:

Echoing many others here, I too could have used a quick recap of how major players were doing 1 year later - especially Dick and Weevil. I would have even accepted status quo, because at least it was something. The ending just seemed so unfinished.

They want the 5th season. 

[TheGourmez]

On 7/24/2019 at 5:25 AM, Whimsy said:

Someone mentioned back a couple of pages or so that the focus has been on JD and Logan because he died, but that really it's the end for all the characters.  This has really resonated with me and I am really sad for all of them.  The entire cast really loved VM and (for reasons unknown to me) RT.  They have agreed to come back for the movie and the revival only for him to kick them all to the curb.  Sure, the others could somehow pop up for a cameo, but it doesn't really sound like that's what RT is interested in.  

Also, the comment from RT and KB about the teenage drama is frustrating because who does he think the fans are??  I seriously doubt he's getting that many new fans.  The people who are watching are mostly those who started watching 15 years ago.  Guess what.  We've all grown up and matured. We would all go along for the ride of a mature Veronica Mars.  He didn't give us a mature Veronica Mars.  He gave us a mature everyone else except Veronica Mars.

First of all, I enjoyed the season. But I am glad I spoiled myself for the last few episodes, because I'd be raging mad otherwise--at least as raging mad as I get over TV, which isn't that scary, I promise. But yeah, one of the greatest reasons I liked the season was all the characters returning, especially Leo and Cliff. Heck, Kane and the principal in the last episode were a treat. Weidman? That was a badass moment. Without those callbacks to Neptune history, the show would lose a lot of its appeal. I'd watch, and I hope they get a S5, but that would assuredly decide for me if I watched beyond it.

On 7/24/2019 at 7:28 AM, rejnel said:

Logan's death was badly done, but beyond th

-how is Daniel Maloof a free man, let alone running for senate? There is tons to connect him with the death of a relative of his brother's fiancee; by no means would it be written off as a simple race-motivated murder attempt. And how is crazy Mama Carr not on every local news outlet shrieking about her other son who's gone missing. I would think the Maloofs would have every reason to get out of Dodge, not raise their profile and run for higher office.

I liked all the actors in Maloof's family, but that aspect of this story was definitely not needed...beyond letting Logan have a couple badass moments, and of course, the already mentioned Wiedman cameo. Imagine more Wallace! Room for Mac! Room for some old school hobnobbing with the 09ers! That would have been so much more fun.

On 7/24/2019 at 1:39 PM, angelusgirl said:

I am so frustrated with the season as a whole.  What they did to Veronica, her friendships, her relationships. I am frustrated with the multitude of interviews "explaining" themselves. But I am also frustrated at the number of people (not here, other places) that are taking this interviews as "proof" that Logan is dead.  I think there were way too many holes, way to many needless specific explanations of how often he has to leave at a moments notice and comes back whenever.  Rob saying he regrets these possible clues?  Bull.  That doesn't happen by accident.  I think they all doth protest too much and season 5 will end with V "moving on" and a shot of Logan either captured/incapacitated or en route home.  The EW interviews with Kit Harrington had him describing in detail how he got "the talk" about his death, how he was for sure done.  Multiple interviews with the show runners claiming the same.  Do people honestly think they would show their hand? Say lol just kidding? GoT is just one instance, but showrunners and actors lie.  they have to. The number of interviews itself is really kind of suspect. Why so many?  Is he really dead? Maybe but taking RT and co at their word may be a fools errand. 

As soon as there was no body, I decided there's no way Logan's dead--this TV viewer wasn't born yesterday. And I told my husband that the cast + Rob are doing a Kit Harrington, to which he looked at me blankly, because he does not watch GOT. I think they made peace with the idea of Logan being dead, because that's where they decided to leave it if S5 doesn't happen, but if it does, I completely believe there will be little maddening hints and clues dropped throughout that he's alive, that'll make Veronica think she's going crazy. I don't know that it'd even be explored much in a S5, but Logan's not dead. I mean, c'mon, didn't Logan specifically mentioned being familiar with IEDs in Fallujah earlier in the season? Maybe not those exact words, but enough to make me side-eye that he wouldn't pick up on a suspicious backpack in the car...

18 hours ago, bybrandy said:

Aside from how hosed Logan got (and my god) I'm really upset that they did all of that to Dick and then just left it hanging.  His dad is dead, and is responsible for killing somebody and then they kill off the person we've seen be most consistantly there for Dick and no reaction at all from Dick.  I know Dick is the dullest knife in the drawer but not going back to him after the death of his father?  That felt wrong to me.

I feel most cheated that I didn't get to see Dick react to his father's death. Arguably, he's lost the most relatives on this show now, or at least he and Logan are neck and neck. And if Logan is actually, fully dead, he's also lost his best friend. That felt like a rip-off, not returning to Dick at all in the final episode.

But overall, would watch S5. Just maybe not beyond if they aren't pulling a Harrington after all. Because without Neptune's characters, I'm not going to be fully invested.

[Whimsy]

49 minutes ago, TheGourmez said:

First of all, I enjoyed the season. But I am glad I spoiled myself for the last few episodes, because I'd be raging mad otherwise--at least as raging mad as I get over TV, which isn't that scary, I promise. But yeah, one of the greatest reasons I liked the season was all the characters returning, especially Leo and Cliff. Heck, Kane and the principal in the last episode were a treat. Weidman? That was a badass moment. Without those callbacks to Neptune history, the show would lose a lot of its appeal. I'd watch, and I hope they get a S5, but that would assuredly decide for me if I watched beyond it.

I liked all the actors in Maloof's family, but that aspect of this story was definitely not needed...beyond letting Logan have a couple badass moments, and of course, the already mentioned Wiedman cameo. Imagine more Wallace! Room for Mac! Room for some old school hobnobbing with the 09ers! That would have been so much more fun.

As soon as there was no body, I decided there's no way Logan's dead--this TV viewer wasn't born yesterday. And I told my husband that the cast + Rob are doing a Kit Harrington, to which he looked at me blankly, because he does not watch GOT. I think they made peace with the idea of Logan being dead, because that's where they decided to leave it if S5 doesn't happen, but if it does, I completely believe there will be little maddening hints and clues dropped throughout that he's alive, that'll make Veronica think she's going crazy. I don't know that it'd even be explored much in a S5, but Logan's not dead. I mean, c'mon, didn't Logan specifically mentioned being familiar with IEDs in Fallujah earlier in the season? Maybe not those exact words, but enough to make me side-eye that he wouldn't pick up on a suspicious backpack in the car...

I feel most cheated that I didn't get to see Dick react to his father's death. Arguably, he's lost the most relatives on this show now, or at least he and Logan are neck and neck. And if Logan is actually, fully dead, he's also lost his best friend. That felt like a rip-off, not returning to Dick at all in the final episode.

But overall, would watch S5. Just maybe not beyond if they aren't pulling a Harrington after all. Because without Neptune's characters, I'm not going to be fully invested.

I think it’s a mistake if they’re trying to pull a “Jon Snow” because on GOT there were a lot of other characters to keep people coming back. I think they’re losing a ton of fans who don’t plan on being back for season 5. I’m waiting to decide, and will probably watch it but it sounds like a lot of people are bailing. 

[Athena]

2 hours ago, TheGourmez said:

As soon as there was no body, I decided there's no way Logan's dead--this TV viewer wasn't born yesterday. And I told my husband that the cast + Rob are doing a Kit Harrington, to which he looked at me blankly, because he does not watch GOT. I think they made peace with the idea of Logan being dead, because that's where they decided to leave it if S5 doesn't happen, but if it does, I completely believe there will be little maddening hints and clues dropped throughout that he's alive, that'll make Veronica think she's going crazy. I don't know that it'd even be explored much in a S5, but Logan's not dead. I mean, c'mon, didn't Logan specifically mentioned being familiar with IEDs in Fallujah earlier in the season? Maybe not those exact words, but enough to make me side-eye that he wouldn't pick up on a suspicious backpack in the car...

I was spoiled as well and thought the same that Logan's death would be a tease cliff hanger for S5. However, the more I read the comments from RT, KB, and the others, I think it's more permanent than not. RT wants the show to go in a different direction and killing Logan was one of the only ways to do that. It's a direction that removes Veronica from Neptune including everyone who has shown to be healthy. I personally disagree with this move as Veronica and her relationships in Neptune is what made this show and universe great. S3 failed in ways for me because they tried to unsuccessfully move Veronica away from her core even though Logan et al. were there, the setting changed the show and the writing. I do not want to see unhealthy Veronica trying to run away and being a hardened PI on the road in the longer term. Veronica's character was grounded by all her relationships in Neptune. 

I think if S5 were to happen, we would get cameo(s) from Dick if only because Kristen and Ryan are BFFs. I don't know how that would work writing wise since Dick's best feature was his loyalty and friendship to Logan. Dick has no family and probably no real friends left. 

[Desperado]

I spent so much money buying and time watching and cheering this show... All I wanted was to not be gutted by an ending and I got this crap.

I suffered through the maddening Matty character, the stupid Mexican cartel storyline and the constantly annoying pizza guy of Patton Oswalt - a genius my... For this.

I can handle bad endings, but not the ones that leave me completely unwilling to watch previous seasons and purposefully screw with my feelings. There was no reason to have them marry (in an ugly dress and bad hair to boot) just to have them brutally separated à la whatever manpain action movie du jour. As many mentioned already, they had many options that wouldn’t have put the characters together, including having them separate sometime between the movie/books and season 4, this was just gratuitous.

In the Media thread someone posted and interview with KB in which she warns of the dark aspect of the series (I appreciated the warning and took it to heart) but goes on to say (paraphrasing) that in these trying times, it’s good to have a character like VM righting wrongs and giving people hope. What a crock.

More specific things I can’t get over:

1. Veronica has lost all her compassion and empathy in spite of having many people who love and support her.
2. Dick is not there to be Logan’s best man?
3. Veronica gives the ring that Logan spent so much money on to the brat she’s known for what, two months!? 
4. Veronica and Logan come back from the wedding to get ready for their honeymoon and they park on the wrong side of the street?
5. Keith is supposed to have state of the art care but it takes close to a month to find out his meds gave him dementia symptoms? Meanwhile robbing us of the best part of the K&V relationship?
6. Veronica not taking the time to put herself in Weevil’s shoes and just yelling at him all the time.
7. No Mac.

It was lovely to see Wallace and Weevil though, and particularly Leo even if he felt a little too much like Schmidt in some scenes.

[bybrandy]

43 minutes ago, Desperado said:

1. Veronica gives the ring that Logan spent so much money on to the brat she’s known for what, two months!? 

No, the rig was the engagement ring that the kid gave to his fiance who died.  They didn't find the ring on her body and that is the ring the brother and father (I assume... the big guys) were harrassing the congressman about because they wanted the ring because it was wroth big bucks.  They never find the ring because Mattie (Maddie? Veronica Light) found it.