S04.E08: Years, Continents, Bloodshed

[Desperado]

Thanks @bybrandy- I feel slightly better now. 😊

[snarktini]

56 minutes ago, bybrandy said:

No, the rig was the engagement ring that the kid gave to his fiance who died.  They didn't find the ring on her body and that is the ring the brother and father (I assume... the big guys) were harrassing the congressman about because they wanted the ring because it was wroth big bucks.  They never find the ring because Mattie (Maddie? Veronica Light) found it.

Thank you for catching that! I was wondering where the ring came from and meant to ask the forum. Even an "expensive" ring from Logan wouldn't have been that bling-y or pay for so much renovation. I thought I missed something. And I had!

[NotChristine]

I got spoiled once about there being a death in the finale and then again about who the victim was so Logan's death didn't really surprise me. I'm just happy that there was some growth to his character.

Couple getting their happy ending and then one half dying soon after is being a trope.

Overall, this season was a 8/10 for me. I feel like there were one too many plot points connected to the overall bomb story. I missed the case of the week aspect but that's probably because streaming series don't need 20+ episodes like network television. Keith and Veronica's investigation skills seemed sloppy.

I'm surprised nothing happened to Matty after she witnessed Big Dick being killed. Speaking of Matty, what was the point of her trying to copy BD's hard drive?

[GaT]

Well. I was a bit spoiled because Xfinity decided to be assholes & put a headline about the "shocking death" on Veronica Mars, so I figured it was either going to be Logan or Keith. What a waste. If they were unhappy about the Logan/Veronica relationship taking over the show, whose fault is that? That's how the writers wrote it, that's what RT let it be. The whole "no he did it!" "not him, him!" "oh wait, it was him all along!" crap they kept pulling was garbage, including making Penn some kind of supervillain who couldn't be stopped. This season was a big mistake.

Edited August 2, 2019 by GaT

[ParadoxLost]

On 7/25/2019 at 1:35 PM, tennisgurl said:

Yeah, I did a bit of a re-watch before this season, and I have no clue where this idea that "It became all about romance!" or "Logan took over the show and Veronica was second fiddle" came from, unless its just a perception based on how LoVe kind of did take over the fandom, especially in its early years. 

If you asked me what my my top 5 memories of LoVe were, right up there would be how at the end of every season they would have a big romantic re-connection and then a relationship over the summer hiatus and be broken up by the next season premiere.

I'm not that shocked that he would kill Logan off.  Actually, I'm a little shocked that he didn't let them have the wedding then blow Logan up and have a one year time jump in a season 5 premiere if there is one.  I still remain unconvinced that Logan wouldn't show up in the last 5 min of a season 5, they'd be together over the hiatus, and by the start of season 6 Logan is overseas because it wasn't working out because of his faked death.

The one RT interview I saw about this made me think he's a hardcore believer in the Moonlighting curse.  He knows that he has no idea how to handle romantic relationships in TV so he has decided not to.  If VM season 2 and 3 didn't tell us that, then the same issues existing in iZombie should.

The bigger thing in that interview I saw was that he wants to focus on the mysteries.  I don't think he realizes that he's not that great at those.  As several of you have already said, the part of this show that used to work was Veronica's relationships.

[bybrandy]

11 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

The bigger thing in that interview I saw was that he wants to focus on the mysteries.  I don't think he realizes that he's not that great at those.  As several of you have already said, the part of this show that used to work was Veronica's relationships.

Exactly.  I love LoVe.  But honestly, I'm a big enough fan of the greater Neptune verse to give season 5 a go.  But what I love about Neptune is Veronica's relationship with Keith, and Veronica's relationship with Weevil and back when he used to give Wallace things to do Veronica's relationship with Wallace.   The things that worked for me in this series were Keith's health issues and Logan trying to get Veronica to go to therapy (which his final message undermined a bit) and Veronica being genuinely angry about Weevil's life choices and Keith's awkward and suspicion filled relationship with Clyde.   

If season 5 is Veronica Mars travels the world solving mysteries without Cliff and Keith and the gang?  Eh...   

[nara]

I am a big LoVer, so was sad to see Logan killed off. (Doing a binge watch of old episodes as part of my grieving process.) However, I think that Logan was always destined to die young. He was always reckless and tempting fate as a young man.  There’s always been something tragic about him, so I think this is a fitting end. I did expect that Veronica might have a baby after he died, but I guess they decided not to go in that direction 

[Whimsy]

On 8/2/2019 at 9:02 PM, ParadoxLost said:

If you asked me what my my top 5 memories of LoVe were, right up there would be how at the end of every season they would have a big romantic re-connection and then a relationship over the summer hiatus and be broken up by the next season premiere.

I'm not that shocked that he would kill Logan off.  Actually, I'm a little shocked that he didn't let them have the wedding then blow Logan up and have a one year time jump in a season 5 premiere if there is one.  I still remain unconvinced that Logan wouldn't show up in the last 5 min of a season 5, they'd be together over the hiatus, and by the start of season 6 Logan is overseas because it wasn't working out because of his faked death.

The one RT interview I saw about this made me think he's a hardcore believer in the Moonlighting curse.  He knows that he has no idea how to handle romantic relationships in TV so he has decided not to.  If VM season 2 and 3 didn't tell us that, then the same issues existing in iZombie should.

The bigger thing in that interview I saw was that he wants to focus on the mysteries.  I don't think he realizes that he's not that great at those.  As several of you have already said, the part of this show that used to work was Veronica's relationships.

Well, at least that was only two times that happened.  It's not like the show was on for years and years. 

But I agree, RT thinks he's good at mysteries, and he's just not.  He's good at relationships.  This is what has also got me to stick with iZombie, even though I thought it went way down the toilet once there was a gazillion zombies and they weren't a secret any more.  

[EyewatchTV211]

On 8/2/2019 at 12:16 PM, NotChristine said:

I'm surprised nothing happened to Matty after she witnessed Big Dick being killed. Speaking of Matty, what was the point of her trying to copy BD's hard drive?

I think Matty was trying to get evidence that Big Dick was behind the first two bombs (she didn't know Clive had the recording). But then it ended up unnecessary once she got to witness him being murdered. 

[BoogieBurns]

I planned to rewatch the first episode, but right now I'm still too mad. Maybe I missed this part and y'all caught it...

Who was in the trunk kicking around when the two Mexican men crossed the border? We know big Dick was decapitated before his head was brought to Mexico, so I highly doubt his body was still functioning enough to kick while in the trunk. Also, they explicitly state that his body was left in Neptune.

So who was that?

[snarktini]

3 hours ago, BoogieBurns said:

I planned to rewatch the first episode, but right now I'm still too mad. Maybe I missed this part and y'all caught it...

Who was in the trunk kicking around when the two Mexican men crossed the border? We know big Dick was decapitated before his head was brought to Mexico, so I highly doubt his body was still functioning enough to kick while in the trunk. Also, they explicitly state that his body was left in Neptune.

So who was that?

It wasn't anyone we know. That's a side story that happens before our Neptune events begin, to introduce our cartel guys and establish the power of El Despiadado.

[Affogato]

On 7/25/2019 at 7:38 AM, Jenniferbug said:

I think it's really shitty of marketing that they're using the Veronica/Logan pairing so much in their advertising, knowing how this ends. They shouldn't get to lure fans in with a relationship that ultimately LITERALLY blows up! It feels so manipulative. 

In many ways this is hilarious. Marketing is by definition manipulative. Advertising definitively promises outcomes that the product does not deliver. Drink X and be part of the best group of friends in the world. Clear skin will make you loved and admired. Red bull gives you wings. 

Now five years after season 4, if Logan had lived,:

veronica drives into Neptune and goes to a party at Wallace’s house. Logan is there, his arm around his wife, a lawyer who works with Wallace”s wife. She is visibly  pregnant and when they meet she excuses herself to call the babysitter, but not until a few things come up. It is clear she is not just Logan’s wife but his friend.  Logan says he just got back from the middle east but he’s missed golfing with her. Wallace goes by and casts a worried look at Veronica but she is fine  

And look, this is always Logan’s endgame  he’s conventional and wants the echolls family christmas for real and now he is working towards it   NOt there but he will get there. He has a goal, to be part of the happy family he never had as a kid.

the wife isn’t Veronica  veronica needs a lot of stress, like Logan, to calm the symptoms of trauma. Being his calm safe haven would destroy her. It isn’t that she needs to realize how much she loves him. There are real issues, not even counting the distaste she has for the 09er lifestyle (which is earned).

logan didn't have to die but i suspect the fans would not be happy with this scenario either. Catch 22. I mean is it better to  have a season 5 where we saw their relationship fall apart? 

Veronica is more open ended as a character. 

Edited August 9, 2019 by Affogato

[Scoop]

Random thoughts:

I hated that the show was dropped early and then I was involuntarily spoiled through social media. I had planned on not checking certain sites when the announced date was set.

1. Don't drop shows early with spoiler potentials - even better: release weekly

2. Sometimes outside observers are better at guessing what their family and friends think and behave more than the person themselves. Hence, Nicole seeing VM's attraction to Leo before she did herself. In this case, the whole season telegraphed VM's trauma was getting the best of her and what could be seen as powerful (harsh, rude, and dismissive) in a 17 year old is unwise and sad in a 35 year old year old. Are we supposed to think that the mugger-ice pooper really has nothing to fear or that $600 is enough for him? Not excusing his behavior and not suggesting equivalence but is Matty's stealing of the ring ok?

3. Some people argue that the writer knows the characters better than the viewers. I disagree. I think RT does not understand his characters that well. Logan had every reason to think that not marrying her now is the right choice. The whole season showed her lack of growth and his incredible growth and yearning for stability. Why the fake out in the end? I am not a full shipper and my rejection of the ending is rooted in my critique that the ending was not true to the story being told. This a shortcoming  of the writer. I like the ending the poster above wrote- it resonates with the story being told.

Why does VM need a horrific tragedy to seek therapy or "fuel" her motivation? Isn't the injustice she witness enough? It's like Sansa from GoT needing to be raped to change or grow as a person. Newsflash, girls can grow from flighty teens to strong women without extra trauma. You see the same thread with Matty- did she need to witness a beheading before she realized that she was way in over her head and needed support?

4. RT doesn't understand his viewers- of course people don't want to see a high school show with 35 year olds. That was not the motivation for wanting more VM. It's the interplay between these characters in this messed up town and messed up world. Veronica represents our desire for fight and flight- the friends and dad represent her reasons to stay in this world. I would've loved to see more complexity with the secondary characters. the best parts in this reboot were the disappointments in themselves and with each other expressed by older Weevil and V. The lingering attraction (even when you love someone else) between her and Leo. The worry that adults experiences with an aging parent. The lack of friendships older people experience. These themes could have built a layered show with a central character. Mad Men did that. No one wants to see the anti hero Don Draper without Peggy and Pete. Those secondary characters also grapple living in a messed up world. RT miscalculated when he thought that people want to see V without her world. Also, as a writer suggested, these big close looped endings really do mess with the world of a fan. I now don't want to see older episodes etc. I don't fully know why but I have a feeling I am not alone in that.

[spadada]

On 7/21/2019 at 9:00 AM, absnow54 said:

Logan has always been the foil to self destructive Veronica, which is why I think he should have left her at the alter. By fridging him, he becomes another tally in the victim Veronica column, where the world is cruel to her, instead of her nature causing her world to implode. And that’s why I’m not really interested in a season 5  Veronica without catalysts like Logan, Keith, Wallace, and Weevil to engage different sides of her moral compass. 

I feel this way too and suspect the only reason Rob did not do this was 1) because as Diane said in one interview, he had his mind made up that this was what had to happen and no one was going to budge him on it and 2) he did not want to have to field Logan questions in interviews for the rest of the hypothetical run. This was the coward’s way out of resetting her reality.

But like you said, Logan could have left her and that would have been interesting. She is so messed up that even her homme fatale grew up and moved on! Then she could leave Neptune and be forced to finally take a hard look at herself. By killing him Rob is saying “I don’t want to have to explain why Jason isn’t in the next season.” And then when S4 is panned by fans he can blame it on shipper madness.

Dude, you wanted to write a spin-off. It’s ok. Just admit what it is. Don’t drag us into your eight episode pitch and then leave a bomb in our backseat. 

Edited August 12, 2019 by spadada

[spadada]

On 7/21/2019 at 8:24 AM, General Days said:

but this changed something in me. It gave me the kind of closure I don't think either Rob Thomas or Kristen Bell wanted me to have.

Yes. After I cried—not during the show because I was just in shock—during the first of Jason’s many “don’t be mad at Rob, it’s for the good of the show” videos, I felt a sense of relief. I had an unhealthy obsession with this show for many years and now I can let go. It’s not the show I loved anymore. 

[secnarf]

4 hours ago, spadada said:

Yes. After I cried—not during the show because I was just in shock—during the first of Jason’s many “don’t be mad at Rob, it’s for the good of the show” videos, I felt a sense of relief. I had an unhealthy obsession with this show for many years and now I can let go. It’s not the show I loved anymore. 

To me, it is the equivalent of 'The Cursed Child' in the Harry Potter series: Read it through once really fast just to find out what happened. Took time to digest, forced myself to read it once more to make sure it really was as bad as I thought, and then closed it off in a little walled-off corner of my mind where I can pretend it doesn't exist.

Though I haven't yet managed to re-watch season 4, I am trying to pretend it never happened. I made myself watch seasons 1-2 as a palate cleanser. My cousin asked me if she thought her daughter would like the show and if it would be appropriate for her (her daughter is 11). I recommended against watching season 4, and had a hard time recommending the show at all, knowing what happens this season.

[Scoop]

17 minutes ago, secnarf said:

To me, it is the equivalent of 'The Cursed Child' in the Harry Potter series: Read it through once really fast just to find out what happened. Took time to digest, forced myself to read it once more to make sure it really was as bad as I thought, and then closed it off in a little walled-off corner of my mind where I can pretend it doesn't exist.

Though I haven't yet managed to re-watch season 4, I am trying to pretend it never happened. I made myself watch seasons 1-2 as a palate cleanser. My cousin asked me if she thought her daughter would like the show and if it would be appropriate for her (her daughter is 11). I recommended against watching season 4, and had a hard time recommending the show at all, knowing what happens this season.

I have not rewatched Lost and I doubt I will rewatch GoT. I pretend that Buffy ended with her saving the world (season 4). My kids (12 and 14) enjoyed watching season 1 of VM but I think anything beyond that is too dark for them and season 4 changed my wanting to rewatch.

[lorikauai]

I'm still not over this. I was never the biggest Logan fan. He was extremely flawed in seasons 1-3 and now he's suddenly perfect. Meanwhile, Veronica has not grown at all since her teen years and is maybe behaving more recklessly (the drug use does not resemble early VM at all). For some reason Logan is desperate to marry her (even though she's a huge mess) and Veronica resists (and toys with cheating) until she almost dies and suddenly realizes she can't live without him? Then to kill Logan on their wedding day, with one final bomb (from the not-so-smart pizza guy?) was just so CHEESY. You know it's bad when you don't even feel sad about the character's death, just mad at the writers for making it so stupid. Logan leaving Veronica would have made so much more sense. Veronica still could have taken off and gone on the road and had new relationships and given RT the spin-off of his fantasies. 

I am not sure about a season 5 with Veronica off somewhere else. The strength of VM (like iZombie) was always the cast and interaction of the characters, the relationships. Veronica on her own is not as interesting and the town of Neptune is as much a character as Logan, Wallace, Weevil, Dick, and Keith. I mean, even Murder She Wrote was better when Jessica was in Cabot Cove and not meeting with her publisher in New York or at some distant niece's wedding out west. 

[luna1122]

Yeah, it's been almost a month and I'm still not over this. I thought maybe some time and perspective would help, but it hasn't. I'm still just pissed off and sad. I cannot say with 100% certainty that I wouldn't watch another season, or at least try to, if one happens, but I feel like I'm done. That makes me really sad, but there it is. It's even affected how I feel about Kristen Bell, which is perhaps unfair, and probably childish and stupid, or perhaps not, I don't know, but it has. That makes me sad too.

Edited August 16, 2019 by luna1122

[General Days]

On 8/16/2019 at 2:12 PM, lorikauai said:

I'm still not over this. I was never the biggest Logan fan. He was extremely flawed in seasons 1-3 and now he's suddenly perfect. Meanwhile, Veronica has not grown at all since her teen years and is maybe behaving more recklessly (the drug use does not resemble early VM at all). For some reason Logan is desperate to marry her (even though she's a huge mess) and Veronica resists (and toys with cheating) until she almost dies and suddenly realizes she can't live without him? Then to kill Logan on their wedding day, with one final bomb (from the not-so-smart pizza guy?) was just so CHEESY. You know it's bad when you don't even feel sad about the character's death, just mad at the writers for making it so stupid. Logan leaving Veronica would have made so much more sense. Veronica still could have taken off and gone on the road and had new relationships and given RT the spin-off of his fantasies. 

I am not sure about a season 5 with Veronica off somewhere else. The strength of VM (like iZombie) was always the cast and interaction of the characters, the relationships. Veronica on her own is not as interesting and the town of Neptune is as much a character as Logan, Wallace, Weevil, Dick, and Keith. I mean, even Murder She Wrote was better when Jessica was in Cabot Cove and not meeting with her publisher in New York or at some distant niece's wedding out west. 

I wanted to comment on the drug use. I realize Veronica's an adult now. Rob is no longer making a high school show. I didn't care about the weed (although that seems more like Kristen Bell to me than Veronica Mars), but I did not like her indulging in E (i.e. ecstasy/MDMA) from someone she just met. Not with her history of the GHB.

Also, Veronica's damn near 40. She's in her mid-30s anyhow, not her  mid-20s. 

Besides which (I can't remember and I am NOT watching again), did they have Logan take it too (it seemed to me he did -- we didn't see anyone take any E, but I mean by his cut-loose behavior)?

I'm asking, because people in the military have to submit to random drug tests, and it doesn't seem to me that Logan would have risked his commission and career for a night at a Neptune dive.

Edited August 22, 2019 by General Days

[Jsage]

59 minutes ago, General Days said:

Also, Veronica's damn near 45. She's in her mid-30s anyhow, not her  mid-20s. 

Besides which (I can't remember and I am NOT watching again), did they have Logan take it too (it seemed to me he did -- we didn't see anyone take any E, but I mean by his cut-loose behavior)?

I'm asking, because people in the military have to submit to random drug tests, and it doesn't seem to me that Logan would have risked his commission and career for a night at a Neptune dive.

I was wondering about Logan also. It seems like a risky move for a naval officer. Maybe he didn't take it and was just drinking a lot and vibing off the other two?

As for Veronica and Nicole, I'll admit I was shocked when the scene first started, probably because I'm in my 30s and have no interest in taking E and partying so hard. But then I realized that's just me. If Veronica and Nicole want to have some fun and forget the about the trauma in their lives for a little while, why not go for it?

[dargosmydaddy]

2 hours ago, Jsage said:

I was wondering about Logan also. It seems like a risky move for a naval officer. Maybe he didn't take it and was just drinking a lot and vibing off the other two?

I kind of think he was vibing/ pretending to be "party Logan" for Veronica's sake more than anything. Either that or he has a tremendous tolerance for alcohol and whatever else, because he seemed pretty OK the next morning while Veronica felt (and looked) like shit.

[General Days]

15 hours ago, General Days said:

Also, Veronica's damn near 45. She's in her mid-30s anyhow, not her  mid-20s. 

I meant to type 40, not 45. Sorry for the confusion. 

11 hours ago, dargosmydaddy said:

I kind of think he was vibing/ pretending to be "party Logan" for Veronica's sake more than anything. Either that or he has a tremendous tolerance for alcohol and whatever else, because he seemed pretty OK the next morning while Veronica felt (and looked) like shit.

They didn't show it (as far as I remember) that he was pretending, but you're right about the next morning.

I guess there wasn't time for it. We must have needed those extra 30 seconds of Patton Oswalt vamping. Ugh.

(I like Oswalt, I'm just more bitter about this season than I thought I would be by now.)

Edited August 18, 2019 by General Days

[chaifan]

I'm not so much disappointed in Logan getting killed off, but am disappointed in how they got there.   First, I was surprised that Veronica and Logan were a serious couple after all this time.  I was never a Logan fan or a "LoVe" shipper.  I really didn't buy that they would still be together after 15 years.*  That said, I accepted it for what it was, and their relationship worked in context of this season.

My biggest issue with Logan's death is that it required one gigantic, enormous, monumentally stupid move by both Veronica and Keith.  The guy you suspect of being a serial bomber shows up with a backpack, blithely explains it has investigation gear, and you don't even bother to look in it???  They could of at least had it contain actual investigation gear, but have him holding a coffee thermos the whole time, and that is what was left in the car and was the bomb.  But, as someone else posted above thread, the total coincidence of anyone actually being in the car when it went off was also requiring a huge leap for the viewers. 

I'm not really interested in a Season 5 that would be just Veronica roaming the country from case to case.  Veronica without Keith would not be the same.  Instead, can we have The Grand Adventures of Keith and Clyde?  Now that I would watch!  😉

*ETA:  I never saw the VM movie, so I have no idea if Veronica and Logan were a thing at that point. 

Edited August 19, 2019 by chaifan

[jewel21]

7 minutes ago, chaifan said:

I'm not really interested in a Season 5 that would be just Veronica roaming the country from case to case.  Veronica without Keith would not be the same.  Instead, can we have The Grand Adventures of Keith and Clyde?  Now that I would watch!  😉

Can we include Weevil as well? That`s the only way I`ll watch, lol, 

[alexvillage]

On 7/27/2019 at 5:56 PM, moonshine71 said:

How would they be prevented from getting a marriage license? That comes from the county, most don't even ask about the applicants employment, much less whether they have a security clearance. Likely, the reverse would happen. After getting married, his clearance would be subject to a review pending an investigation of his new wife. So yes, it would put his security clearance at risk, especially considering the shit Veronica gets into. But he already put it at risk dropping ecstasy, so...

What I was confused about is why didn't he have an attorney from the navy, why was he back on duty so fast. But frankly, I didn't really care about the character and while I agree that his death was abrupt and somewhat out of the blue, it didn't bother me. I like Veronica and Keith, maibly, and contrary to apparently all VM fans, I prefer Veronica with Piz.

[Chick2Chic]

13 hours ago, chaifan said:

I was never a Logan fan or a "LoVe" shipper.  I really didn't buy that they would still be together after 15 years. 

Haven't they only been together a few years? 

[marshmallows]

17 hours ago, chaifan said:

I'm not so much disappointed in Logan getting killed off, but am disappointed in how they got there.   First, I was surprised that Veronica and Logan were a serious couple after all this time.  I was never a Logan fan or a "LoVe" shipper.  I really didn't buy that they would still be together after 15 years.*  That said, I accepted it for what it was, and their relationship worked in context of this season.

They broke up in s3 and had what Logan calls "9 years of radio silence." So they didn't have nay contact for 9 years. According to the movie and books timeline with s4, V & L have been together for 5 consistent years since the movie. Idk if that helps your belief in it. As much as I love LoVe, I even have a hard time believing they have made this work for 5 years without breaking up, especially considering Veronica's piss poor attitude this season and Logan's job constantly taking him away for large periods of time.

[jade.black]

Wow, I am so bitter. I was nervous going into this... I avoided spoilers, but I saw some ominous tidings such as the title of the last episode, a fan group on Facebook about bringing back Logan, and a review article that said "be careful what you wish for, VM fans." 

Well, almost nobody wished for that, and I'd have honestly rather not had a fourth season than had to have that ending burned into my brain, in a way retroactively ruining the show for me (I often try to pretend season 8 of That 70s Show never happened, but I can never truly convince myself of it- same deal here except far more traumatic).

So, I was hoping that it was going to be Logan away on deployment, or, as much as I had originally dreaded the thought, even just a breakup. If this revival did anything, it made me really dislike Veronica (who I have always loved in the past) while simultaneously reinforcing Logan as my favorite character. She was a terrible bitch to him through most of this season, and it would have made sense the way they were writing the script for him to leave her the way he did in season 3, leaving her to deal with her personal issues and the consequences of her actions. Or, he could have been sent away on his indefinitely long military assignments they made it a point to bring up every episode. What they did was just hateful towards the fans who have kept this show alive.

Do they think anybody is going to accept single widow Veronica with any new love interests more than they would have for a single Veronica who ruined her relationship with Logan (not for the first time)? It's just going to be more rejected because everybody knows RT killed off a beloved (for many the most beloved) character to get her there.

The worst part is that I really liked this season. The Weevil/Veronica stuff was especially amazing. Mature Logan was fantastic. I was on the edge of my seat for parts of the last 2 episodes- despite my dread at what I assumed was coming. But wow. Logan's death just left me BITTER. I watched Big Dick's decapitation with my hands over my face, shocked in the right way- it was brutal but fitting. I watched Logan's (off-screen death) and was just beyond angry. It was a cheap FU to fans for a new direction that doesn't even sound compelling. Now I just feel empty and depressed about a show I really loved. Dammit. I won't watch any future seasons. I wish Jason Dohring had heard the arc written for him and made the same choice as Tina Majorino not to return for it. 

[blondiec0332]

10 hours ago, jade.black said:

Do they think anybody is going to accept single widow Veronica with any new love interests more than they would have for a single Veronica who ruined her relationship with Logan (not for the first time)? It's just going to be more rejected because everybody knows RT killed off a beloved (for many the most beloved) character to get her there.

Rob Thomas clearly doesn't understand why fans loved the show.  While some of the plots were good it was the characters we loved. If season five is just Veronica solving crimes elsewhere then this show will have turned into a poor version of Murder she Wrote.  And we all know MSW's best episodes were the ones when Jessica was in Cabot Cove with the regular characters.

[BlackberryJam]

I binged this and just finished a bit ago. I’m ...struggling. 

I have some basic questions.

1. Where did Dick go? Did he just vanish after the volleyball game/bomb? Veronica was heavily investigating Big Dick and Dick was just...gone? He wasn’t at the wedding, was he?

2. Other than being a badass woman and really interesting character, what was the purpose of Nicole in the narrative? Was she just a red herring? She wasn’t a the wedding either, right? Did she sell up and move?

3. Was all the drinking and weed necessary? I’m not a prude and I certainly drink plenty, but it seemed like they were setting Veronica up for a substance abuse storyline that never came.

4. Some of the cameos needed a bit more to be satisfying and I’m looking at you, Clarence Wiedman.

5. While I can see how it was a natural progression from broken, angry teen girl to the Veronica of S4, she really was kind of awful. She treated Logan badly, was mocking of and devalued Wallace, insta-bonded then betrayed Nicole, scraped the bits of Weevil off her shoe, and was just all around...mean. 

6. Matty (which is how my closed captioning spelled it), oh Veronica, let’s just leave a girl you identify with alone with all of your fabulous equipment and then pull a Leo and let her look through your files. Matty was a clumsy, bumbling Veronica and I get it, but I didn’t like Matty. Not even a little bit. She seemed to suck the energy out of the show with every scene.

7. I had known about Logan but hadn’t been spoiled for anything else, so in E1, I said, “it’s the pizza guy.” I kept yelling it at the screen. “Why aren’t you investigating the pizza guy?” Over and over. 

For an 8 episode season, it should have been both tighter and more detailed. The writing didn’t pull things together. Character was sacrificed for plot.

Grade C+ only for the Keith and Veronica scenes. 

Edited August 25, 2019 by BlackberryJam

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

I binged this and just finished a bit ago. I’m ...struggling. 

I have some basic questions.

1. Where did Dick go? Did he just vanish after the volleyball game/bomb? Veronica was heavily investigating Big Dick and Dick was just...gone? He wasn’t at the wedding, was he?

2. Other than being a badass woman and really interesting character, what was the purpose of Nicole in the narrative? Was she just a red herring? She wasn’t a the wedding either, right? Did she sell up and move?

3. Was all the drinking and weed necessary? I’m not a prude and I certainly drink plenty, but it seemed like they were setting Veronica up for a substance abuse storyline that never came.

4. Some of the cameos needed a bit more to be satisfying and I’m looking at you, Clarence Wiedman.

5. While I can see how it was a natural progression from broken, angry teen girl to the Veronica of S4, she really was kind of awful. She treated Logan badly, was mocking of and devalued Wallace, insta-bonded then betrayed Nicole, scraped the bits of Weevil off her shoe, and was just all around...mean. 

6. Matty (which is how my closed captioning spelled it), oh Veronica, let’s just leave a girl you identify with alone with all of your fabulous equipment and then pull a Leo and let her look through your files. Matty was a clumsy, bumbling Veronica and I get it, but I didn’t like Matty. Not even a little bit. She seemed to suck the energy out of the show with every scene.

7. I had known about Logan but hadn’t been spoiled for anything else, so in E1, I said, “it’s the pizza guy.” I kept yelling it at the screen. “Why aren’t you investigating the pizza guy?” Over and over. 

For an 8 episode season, it should have been both tighter and more detailed. The writing didn’t pull things together. Character was sacrificed for plot.

Grade C+ only for the Keith and Veronica scenes. 

The whole story is the one Veronica tells the therapist one year after Logan’s death. It is tinged by Veronica’s self hate and guilt and her (she did this with lilly) unwillingness to think ill of the dead. I believe there are clues that Logan wasn’t that perfect and Veronica wasn’t that awful.  

Still she was bored and depressed. A lot of people who have issues with trauma need a high level of stress to function normally. Logan was getting it from his job, she wasn’t. As a result she was reckless. They chose to have her act a lot like Logan in the tv show,I think, i think it was deliberately written like that. Hence the drugs  

A PI is never going to be a part o the ‘09er world she investigates, the one Logan wants her to be a part of. Nicole is someone she can be friends with, until she messes it up.  And that’s on Nicole, too. It wasn’t completely unreasonable to suspect her. But Veronica feels really y bad about it. 

I thought they should have done more with Maddy. In the end she is there to keep Keith real. 

I thought it was not very rewatchable, but I don’t think VM holds up to repeated rewatchings. I think I would watch season 5, might even pay for a kickstarter, to see where the actual creator wants it to go next, but I’m not sure I’ll trip over myself to watch a new show of thomas’s. It would have to get good reviews. 

I’m pretty invested in Veronica and have consistently —even in the movie—thought that both Veronica and Logan could do better separately. That does tinge my opinion  

oh yeah. dick was in a movie filming in Roumania. 

Edited August 25, 2019 by Affogato
Typo

[Umbelina]

I'm new to Veronica Mars.  I stumbled on it on Hulu, and was hooked almost immediately and basically binged watched all of it for the past two weeks.  (I have not seen the movie, but read the wiki on it.)

I couldn't look away in the first three seasons, but frankly, I was pretty bored with season 4, I kept getting distracted, and honestly just wanted it all solved, the multiple red herrings were more annoying than interesting to me.

I honestly did not even recognize Logan.  It wasn't just his looks, his whole attitude was some different guy.  Since I watch Hulu with closed captions (because the Handmaid's tale cast mumbles) I was shocked when the closed captioning said "Logan:  blah blah etc."  I even googled the cast to see if the role was being played by someone else.  There was no wit, or wryness, or "Logan" about him...a bit came later...but still.

I guess, since "Logan" was already "gone" for me, his death wasn't a punch in the gut.  It was obvious a marriage between the two had very, very doubtful prospects of happiness for either of them.  I wouldn't have said that back in season 3 though, and while not shipping them, I was kind of rooting for them.

That song by The Eagles, "Already Gone" is playing in my mind right now.  That is exactly how I felt about Logan.  New Logan was some other guy to me, and pretty much remained that way until very near the end, what we saw of him...

I like what someone said earlier in this thread, something about this being an 8 episode preview for the spin off show?  I think you nailed it.  That's exactly what this is.

As far as Neptune being changed?  Having lived in beach towns in California?  Though sad, that was probably the most realistic part of season 4.  How it got there though?  Weren't those pushing for it completely discredited?  How the hell did that law pass?  (Again, I kept getting distracted by Sudoku or google while watching season 4...so maybe I'm wrong about it all.)

Back to the 8 episode promo.  As that?  It worked.  I will probably at least watch the beginnings of a new season.  While I agree, supporting casts make a LOT of shows.  Don going on walkabout and ignoring the rest of the cast of Mad Men in the final season annoyed the crap out of me for example.  However, I CAN picture a new supporting cast in the Veronica Mars spinoff with the same name.  Obviously, she won't be solo.

Much will depend on that supporting cast though.  I can see her having a home base and traveling for specific PI things, ala a younger Murder She Wrote for example.   I can also see her dad being priced out of Neptune, or sick of the "new Neptune" and relocating to be near his daughter.  He would make a bundle selling his house.

I just hope the new assistant, Veronica light doesn't come with, because she did absolutely nothing for me.

I probably need to rewatch season 4, since most of you liked it up until the end.  

Edited August 27, 2019 by Umbelina

[General Days]

On 8/25/2019 at 9:36 AM, BlackberryJam said:

I binged this and just finished a bit ago. I’m ...struggling. 

I have some basic questions.

1. Where did Dick go? Did he just vanish after the volleyball game/bomb? Veronica was heavily investigating Big Dick and Dick was just...gone? He wasn’t at the wedding, was he?

2. Other than being a badass woman and really interesting character, what was the purpose of Nicole in the narrative? Was she just a red herring? She wasn’t a the wedding either, right? Did she sell up and move?

3. Was all the drinking and weed necessary? I’m not a prude and I certainly drink plenty, but it seemed like they were setting Veronica up for a substance abuse storyline that never came.

4. Some of the cameos needed a bit more to be satisfying and I’m looking at you, Clarence Wiedman.

5. While I can see how it was a natural progression from broken, angry teen girl to the Veronica of S4, she really was kind of awful. She treated Logan badly, was mocking of and devalued Wallace, insta-bonded then betrayed Nicole, scraped the bits of Weevil off her shoe, and was just all around...mean. 

6. Matty (which is how my closed captioning spelled it), oh Veronica, let’s just leave a girl you identify with alone with all of your fabulous equipment and then pull a Leo and let her look through your files. Matty was a clumsy, bumbling Veronica and I get it, but I didn’t like Matty. Not even a little bit. She seemed to suck the energy out of the show with every scene.

7. I had known about Logan but hadn’t been spoiled for anything else, so in E1, I said, “it’s the pizza guy.” I kept yelling it at the screen. “Why aren’t you investigating the pizza guy?” Over and over. 

For an 8 episode season, it should have been both tighter and more detailed. The writing didn’t pull things together. Character was sacrificed for plot.

Grade C+ only for the Keith and Veronica scenes. 

1. Regarding Dick, Ryan Hansen was supposed to be in a couple of more episodes, but he had other work, so Rob wrote Dick having to film the movie in Romania, as Affogato mentioned.

2. Honestly, I think she was there because the actress and KB are buds from The Good Place. At least, that's how it felt to me.

3. Same

4. I liked Clarence's turn.

5. I like V when she's awful. I really wish they'd written her as cheating on Logan with Leo (not big, just a kiss) and losing him. 

6. Every time the girl was on, I felt like I was watching Rob's pilot for a new show.

7. My husband and I knew within minutes it was Oswalt.

Rob already knows he's not a  mystery writer, and I think this season confirmed that.

[BlackberryJam]

Thanks for the Dick info. I love Dick as a character and how much fun Ryan Hansen has playing Dick. I remember the movie thing, but it was so abrupt and poorly done. 

I wanted more Clarence, truly. Wasn’t his last turn on the show killing Harry Hamlin? 

You know what helps in these situations? A co-writer. Or an assistant story editor. Something. That mystery was so weak. What I loved about S1 was the mystery of the week building on the big underlying mystery. This was lacking.

I don’t know if I can stomach a S5.

[General Days]

On 8/28/2019 at 12:32 PM, BlackberryJam said:

You know what helps in these situations? A co-writer. Or an assistant story editor. Something. That mystery was so weak. What I loved about S1 was the mystery of the week building on the big underlying mystery. This was lacking.

I don’t know if I can stomach a S5.

There was a whole writing staff -- among them, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Yes. That Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, also Diane Ruggiero (who wrote on the original series), Heather Regnier (who has written for iZombie and Sleepy Hollow), and David Walpert who has worked on Scrubs, as well as Rob's Cupid reboot, Sports Night, Just Shoot Me, Will & Grace,  and  more.

None of them are mystery writers though, which Rob has acknowledged, so I don't know why he has this bee in his bonnet to make this a full-on mystery series.  

Edited August 30, 2019 by General Days

[Affogato]

8 hours ago, General Days said:

There was a whole writing staff -- among them, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Yes. That Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, also Diane Ruggiero (who wrote on the original series), Heather Regnier (who has written for iZombie and Sleepy Hollow), and David Walpert who has worked on Scrubs, as well as Rob's Cupid reboot, Sports Night, Just Shoot Me, Will & Grace,  and  more.

None of them are mystery writers though, which Rob has acknowledged, so I don't know why he has this bee in his bonnet to make this a full-on mystery series.  

Here’s what I think:

Most PIs are discredited cops near the end of their careers. I mean in noir fiction. Maybe wounded. Biding time working while they figure out what to do next.  Like Keith. Maybe Keith planned on moving on once Veronica left, before the harddrive incident. Her permanent shame.

So in season four she is keeping the job afloat, for him, and it is clear being a PI sucks. Also she will never live in Wallace’s new world, where she knows all the dirt, however much that is/was Logan’s next goal. Even if she decided to practice law and have a kid. Mostly alone.once Keith and the business are functional she can’t wait to leave.

Permanently an outsider, as befits her role in Neptune. Maybe she could get away with it in NY or LA  

So his answer is moving her from PI to what Sherlock Holmes called himself—‘consulting detective’. Therefore,  She needs mysteries to solve.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Affogato

[blondiec0332]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

So his answer is moving her from PI to what Sherlock Holmes called himself—‘consulting detective’. Therefore,  She needs mysteries to solve.

That might be what RT thinks Veronica Mars the character needs but it is not what Veronica Mars the series needs.

[Affogato]

39 minutes ago, blondiec0332 said:

That might be what RT thinks Veronica Mars the character needs but it is not what Veronica Mars the series needs.

But what does it need? Wallace is settled and he doesn’t have a lot in common with Veronica, although they still cate about each other.

Thr corruption is finished. The people who killed sacks are out of power.  Keith is coasting towards retirement and will take care of the remaining disenfranchised  

Logan is a finished character. Hit him with more trauma—a crippling  injury so he has to stay home and deal with his ptsd not having an outlet? Even by the end of the movie that is running him over old territory.

Logan wants normal and the story of the two of them navigating theur marriage is of people who want different things. Fanfiction would traumatize veronica—keiths death—to make her realize she needed to settle down and do what Logan wanted because she loves him. Trauma does in season4 but it won’t last. And logan’s story is there free for the extrapolation  

so what is the story if Veronica, who you can think of as despicable if you like, remains the focus of the story. Her refusal to settle or grow pits her out of sync with others her age. What she does is the only open story  

that said will it work? Maybe not  

[blondiec0332]

12 minutes ago, Affogato said:

But what does it need?

Veronica doesn't need to be a PI. She could be a lawyer. It would allow her to still solve cases.  She can still be friends with Wallace without being sucked into the world he now lives in.  Weevil could need her services for a crime he didn't commit. There could be a story for Mac.  They could even bring back Duncan. Lily would be a teenager now.

[Athena]

I think the books did  better job of showcasing Veronica's post-movie struggles and had better mysteries. 

Book spoiler: 

Spoiler

The storyline with her mother and her half brother was more interesting. I thought her relationship with Hunter Scott was touching and brought some vulnerability to Veronica. 

Another reviewer commented on it, but I think it's more noir for a show to have Veronica actually work through her personal struggles and relationships. It could have been interesting watching her solve cases while also figuring out what she can do with her life professionally and personally. I thought the last couple episodes were a a cop-out since we barely saw Veronica actually work through anything. I don't necessarily think Veronica Mars should have a happy ending, but she seems to have regressed from the books and the movie. 

[Affogato]

3 hours ago, Athena said:

I think the books did  better job of showcasing Veronica's post-movie struggles and had better mysteries. 

Book spoiler: 

  Hide contents

The storyline with her mother and her half brother was more interesting. I thought her relationship with Hunter Scott was touching and brought some vulnerability to Veronica. 

Another reviewer commented on it, but I think it's more noir for a show to have Veronica actually work through her personal struggles and relationships. It could have been interesting watching her solve cases while also figuring out what she can do with her life professionally and personally. I thought the last couple episodes were a a cop-out since we barely saw Veronica actually work through anything. I don't necessarily think Veronica Mars should have a happy ending, but she seems to have regressed from the books and the movie. 

Well, at the end of the books she’d had some professional success and aclaim, her father was getting better, she had mac and wallace, both single and supportive, and her relationship with Logan seemed promising. By season 4 her father was failing and she was taking horrible soul killing jobs to keep him and the business afloat, all her friends were occupied elsewhere And logan was absolutely pushing for marriage-house -kids and Veronica, You don’t have to want what I want but if you don’t you can leave. Its an iltimatum, not support. Ultimatum. 

Anyway i think I’ going to try to forget about it. 

Edited August 30, 2019 by Affogato

[GaT]

On 8/18/2019 at 7:34 PM, chaifan said:

But, as someone else posted above thread, the total coincidence of anyone actually being in the car when it went off was also requiring a huge leap for the viewers. 

It wasn't a coincidence, Logan got a text that the street sweepers were coming & the car had to be moved. It was a setup.

[secnarf]

1 hour ago, GaT said:

It wasn't a coincidence, Logan got a text that the street sweepers were coming & the car had to be moved. It was a setup.

It wasn't a text, it was his automatic reminder to himself. They had shown that same reminder going off earlier in the series, and him going to move the car then too.

[GaT]

1 hour ago, secnarf said:

It wasn't a text, it was his automatic reminder to himself. They had shown that same reminder going off earlier in the series, and him going to move the car then too.

Huh, I thought it was supposedly from the city or something, not a reminder.

[chaifan]

Whether the text was a reminder message Logan sent to himself, or a reminder from the city, it still takes an incredible level of coincidence for Logan to have been blown up by the bomb.  Pizza guy would have had to a) known that Logan/Veronica park their car on a street/alley that has daily street cleaning; b) would have had to know what time the street cleaner gets to their area; c) would have had to set the bomb for that time even before Veronica came to his door; d) would have to get lucky enough to bring a backpack into their car without them checking what was in it (and that happened, which I simply can't believe Veronica was that stupid); e) would know somehow he wouldn't still be in the car at the same time; d) would anticipate the backpack being left behind even if he was arrested (which, again, it was and was another major so stupid it can't be believed mistake by the police).  Or, we can believe that pizza guy simply set the bomb for a certain time, not knowing what was going to happen once he got in the car with Veronica, and it was a stupid plot device for it just- coincidentally - going off at the exact moment Logan went to go move the car. 

[secnarf]

Personally I thought it was a coincidence that Logan was in the car, and that perhaps the pizza guy had intended for Veronica to be killed instead.

But I can't think about it too much or I get angry. I haven't forgiven them for killing Logan.

[KAOS Agent]

On 8/30/2019 at 2:35 PM, Affogato said:

By season 4 her father was failing and she was taking horrible soul killing jobs to keep him and the business afloat, all her friends were occupied elsewhere And logan was absolutely pushing for marriage-house -kids and Veronica, You don’t have to want what I want but if you don’t you can leave. Its an iltimatum, not support. Ultimatum. 

But why couldn't Veronica move to San Diego or something? Neptune is really close to there and that's where Logan would have been based out of.  She didn't need to take soul crushing jobs in Neptune. Why not expand? She's got to have some serious cred given her high profile cases. I think Logan would have been supportive of Veronica branching out professionally if she'd tried for something more. Something that would give her the same outlet for excitement that Logan gets in his job.

I have little problem with Logan expressing that he wants a wife and kids and if that's not something she's interested in then it's best to end it now. That's a deal breaker in a lot of relationships and dragging it out just makes everyone miserable. Neither one was particularly happy with the way things were. It was clear that they were going in different directions and wanted different things in life. It would be painful to end it, but ultimately everyone would be better off.

[BlackberryJam]

Call me ridiculously practical, but Veronica would have had to be paying for Private health insurance. If she marries someone in the Navy, all that becomes free. There are tons of reasons, especially financial one, for a business owner who is struggling, to get married, especially to a member of the military.

I know she's not mercenary oh, but when it comes to health, she was willing to do anything for Keith.

[Affogato]

9 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

But why couldn't Veronica move to San Diego or something? Neptune is really close to there and that's where Logan would have been based out of.  She didn't need to take soul crushing jobs in Neptune. Why not expand? She's got to have some serious cred given her high profile cases. I think Logan would have been supportive of Veronica branching out professionally if she'd tried for something more. Something that would give her the same outlet for excitement that Logan gets in his job.

If Rob had any sense she would have gone into the fbI after stanford ir cia or just become a cop and gotten some job training. She would still have come back to see Logan when he called and would still have gone on leave to help her father and keep the business afloat and maybe got sucked into the PI business but she would have been an adult. Work exprience, consequences, self defence training.  It would have been a much better way to transition her to an adult PI. She would have had to overcome some of her insecurities and issues to function in an adult work environment. As we can assume Logan did.

she messed up in season 3. If dad was elected he wouldn’t have been hurt and would have a retirement plan. She owes him. In her mind, anyway. 

9 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

I have little problem with Logan expressing that he wants a wife and kids and if that's not something she's interested in then it's best to end it now. That's a deal breaker in a lot of relationships and dragging it out just makes everyone miserable. Neither one was particularly happy with the way things were. It was clear that they were going in different directions and wanted different things in life. It would be painful to end it, but ultimately everyone would be better off.

The hard core marshmallows rarely blame Rob for consistently and persistently writing them as incompatible, but they are never ever on the same page. There’s your problem, and it isn’t because he’s a bad writer. It is intentional. It is a theme. 

At the end of the books she thinks about her future children and she also thinks that her view of the future and Logan’s don’t mesh and that she will have to give in to him, because he is less flexible., if she stays with him. So maybe if he had been willing to quit the navy in a couple of years they’d already have children. He still doesn’t seem to be making allowances for her  is he quitting his job? Is he studying to be an accountant? Something that will allow mutual support? Uh, no. And no, i don’t think he should necessarily do one thing or another, but why should the one who wants the children the most be the one who will only pop in every couple of weeks to play with them (between beach volleyball engagements)  

In any sensible world the only reason to push for therapy with his long-term therapist is a power play on his part (or he’s a moron) (and the therapist is unethical). It is a move that seems like he is concerned for her but which really isn’t. I mean it is clear if he coos over one more infant, Wallace’s or otherwise, she will hit him.  So buy a cheaper ring and pay for therapy with a therapist neither of them has history with.  Part of the issue is his inability to think that she might need  a lot of attention and a bit of sacrifice on his part. She is strong and needs noone, in his opinion. He deserves all he can get out of life  

 you are right, veronica needs to attend to her own needs and maybe if she did Logan would do better by her. She is kind of a doormat in some ways  

Edited September 1, 2019 by Affogato