S02.E03: The End of the World

[walnutqueen]

12 hours ago, movingtargetgal said:

I really like the therapist.  I don't see her as combative.  She is challenging a client, who is/was in a life threatening situation.  If Perry had not died, he probably would have killed Celeste.  She still continues to minimize Perry's violence towards her.  The therapist challenges her because she is trying to save Celeste's life.  She needed to be very blunt and honest with Celeste in order to break through the denial.  Perry is dead but Celeste is at high risk to become involved in another violent relationship.  I think Celeste's therapist is excellent.

12 hours ago, ferjy said:

I disagree. A therapist can lead the patient into certain results but not challenge them and outright tell them what’s what (which is really only the therapist’s own POV). They’re supposed to help the patients find their own way. This therapist is using her own views to supposedly make them better. She’s far too pushy. 

11 hours ago, LotusFlower said:

Not challenge them?

Need to get a new therapist...

(I think challenging is allowed.  There are many different ways to treat/counsel/help...)

Yeah, sometimes a therapist has to cut through the psychobabble and just tell it like it is.  Many years ago, a therapist saved my life by telling me that if we did not devise a clever exit strategy for me, she'd be bringing flowers - to my hospital room after my jaw was wired shut, or to my grave.  THAT got my attention and helped me focus my efforts.

3 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Also I meant to add I am really enjoying  Meryl Streep.   Mary Louise is playing a mother in deep denial about her son and asking the questions a mother in that kind of denial would  ask about her son who died suddenly and knows people are keeping secrets.  Heck she just found out she has another grandson who has an uncanny resemblance to her “other” dead son.  

“Are you sure he assaulted you?”

”Why do you have these pills?”

A lesser actress would not be able to pull this character off.

She must've watched some of the same true crime shows as I, because she reminds me of some mothers of horrible killers, who try to minimize, and insist on telling everyone what a nice boy their sons were.

Mary Louise is in need of a Josh Mankiewitcz smirking raised eyebrow, or a Keith Morrison bony finger to the chin head tilt side-eye.

I am liking this second season.

[LotusFlower]

8 hours ago, jenn31 said:

Obviously that’s what challenge means. No need to be snide. You missed my meaning that it’s the pushing to do “what she wants” that’s people are saying is wrong. I think a therapist should be more open to listening and finding ways to help the patient through the problems.

I didn’t miss your meaning, I simply disagree.  When you go to a therapist, you’re hiring them for their expertise and training, just like with any doctor, or any professional, for that matter.  Most people make excuses for their bad behavior because they like their status quo or change is too hard, so it’s a therapist’s job to essentially help them get better.  Celeste not only puts herself in dangerous and violent situations, but she makes excuses for it.  The therapist here is trying to get Celeste to see this pattern and confront it.  If she just sat back and “listened,” Celeste would continue to talk about all the “joy” Perry brought to her life.  

[teddysmom]

20 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

We've known since season 1 that the therapist is unprofessional. She flat-out violated confidentiality rules by having appointments with Celeste behind Perry's back (which is a big no-no when you're a couples counselor).

How did she violate confidentiality rules?  It's not unethical to see the partners separately. Celeste's situation wasn't a normal marriage, the therapist was trying to save her life.  

https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/faq/can-i-talk-to-our-couples-therapist-without-my-partner-being-present

[iMonrey]

Quote

Dr. Bo Peep was awesome. Can she come back? 

I think Amabella is a little too old to respond in a positive way to some strange woman dressed up like Little Bo Peep. That seems like something more appropriate or useful for a 3-year old. Someone Amabella's age would just think that was too weird.

Quote

I was with the moms-- wtf?  Turning Charlotte's Web into a story about sustainability for 2nd graders?  There has to be a better way to discuss climate change without giving 8yos panic attacks.

Nobody seemed to be arguing the right point here - it's not whether the school should be teaching the kids about climate science. It's about what they should be teaching them. All the parents seemed to be saying was "they're too young to hear about this" but by Madeline's own admission they are exposed to it all the time in the media. There's no way to avoid it.

Quote

Is it my imagination or have they turned Renata into a non-stop raving idiot?

Yeah - when she mimicked the doctor like a four-year old would do I thought it went a step too far. Somebody should have pulled back and said, you know, this character is turning into a cartoon. The director, the actress, the writer . . . someone.

Quote

A therapist can lead the patient into certain results but not challenge them and outright tell them what’s what (which is really only the therapist’s own POV). They’re supposed to help the patients find their own way. 

Well, what do you expect when you go to Calamity Jane for therapy?

[tennisgurl]

I mean, Charlotte really did basically re-brand Wilbur, its basically a story about the power of marketing. 

I love how the principle is so totally over these crazy ass parents and their never ending bullshit. "The Medusa of Monterrey" 

[Laurie4H]

Did they ever say why Madelyn’s first husband left her?  I can’t remember.  

On s shallow note,  I think Jane needs some lipstick and sweep her bangs to the side a bit.   

I usually think Laura Dern is a good actress (watch the show Enlightened) and I laughed at her making fun of the dr. But yelling and saying F&ck all the time doesn’t always work.  

[Blakeston]

26 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

How did she violate confidentiality rules?  It's not unethical to see the partners separately. Celeste's situation wasn't a normal marriage, the therapist was trying to save her life.  

https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/faq/can-i-talk-to-our-couples-therapist-without-my-partner-being-present

I don't see anything in that link about providing counseling to a couple, while also seeing one spouse individually on the side without the other spouse's knowledge.

I read quite a few comments from therapists during season one saying that the therapist's secret sessions with Celeste were a violation of confidentiality rules, even in an abusive relationship.

[athousandclowns]

35 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I think Amabella is a little too old to respond in a positive way to some strange woman dressed up like Little Bo Peep. That seems like something more appropriate or useful for a 3-year old. Someone Amabella's age would just think that was too weird.

Nobody seemed to be arguing the right point here - it's not whether the school should be teaching the kids about climate science. It's about what they should be teaching them. All the parents seemed to be saying was "they're too young to hear about this" but by Madeline's own admission they are exposed to it all the time in the media. There's no way to avoid it.

Yeah - when she mimicked the doctor like a four-year old would do I thought it went a step too far. Somebody should have pulled back and said, you know, this character is turning into a cartoon. The director, the actress, the writer . . . someone.

Well, what do you expect when you go to Calamity Jane for therapy?

Maybe Officer Trudy Wiegel ( Reno 911) got through to Amabella 

Edited June 24, 2019 by athousandclowns
Correct name

[QuinnM]

Just now, athousandclowns said:

Maybe Officer Trudy Wiegel ( Reno 911) got through to Annabella  

Ahem. 🙂

[Irlandesa]

56 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

The one person she seemed to be wrong about was Ed, when she suggested that Ed had betrayed Madeline by being indifferent. He's been overly passive, but never indifferent.

I think she was reading his disengaged demeanor in the session as potentially indicative of his behavior in the relationship.   When he denied he was indifferent,  she seemed to move on.

I do feel what they're setting up for Maddie might be a bit pat, though.  All the focus on college seems to point towards Maddie realizing she should go back to school....which okay but it feels a bit out there as a reason she cheated.

[LibertarianSlut]

2 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Now we find out that the second-grade teacher is telling kids that Charlotte didn't want Wilbur being eaten because raising pigs is bad for climate change? It seems like Rush Limbaugh's idea of what liberal schools are like.

I beg to differ that this depiction of an elemtentary school is unrealistic (though I can't speak to Monterey schools in particular).  When I was in second grade, our chorus was assigned a song that if we go into an American city we should be aware of two things--don't drink the water and don't breathe the air.  That was literally the line.  Then, in third grade, we had an assignment where we had to record on a chart how many times we flushed the toilet in one week, so that we could see how much water we were wasting (I didn't do it; thought it was beyond stupid).  But, back then, in the 90s, we were constantly harraunged about pollution, and taught that wasting water was going to cause immediate ruin of every man, woman, and child.  Best thing I ever did was leave that school.  But the Monterey school repurposing a book for purposes of its own orthodoxy is very familiar and accurate to me. 

I'm not sure how Jane is surviving if she's not cashing the Celeste checks.  She is working what is almost definitely a minimum wage job and she has a child and not only finds a way to get their needs met, but when she met Bonnie on the beach, her outfit looked very expensive.  Just because it's casualwear doesn't make it cheap. I'm guessing it took upwards of $1,000 to dress the actress head to toe.  Took me out of the scene.

Bonnie--all of them--can stop with the angst over what happened to Perry, I agree.  We're supposed to believe it's bothering Renata after all this time?  Even if the guy wasn't an abusier, if Bonnie perceived that he was going to hurt Celeste, and she pushed him...so what?  That's the risk you (Perry) take when you move to hurt someone in a public setting.  Someone might push you away and it might not end well for someone.  I would have put it behind me long ago.  I probably also would have come clean with the police, though, so who knows if I think similarly to these women.

I have come to totally believe that there is a Mary Louise.  I don't see Meryl Streep anymore.  I think she asked Jane for the paternity test, not to disprove rape by Perry, but because she said she suspected that someone put something in Jane's drink and that Jane had sex with someone else.  I don't blame Jane for declining, but it's very tough terrain to navigate, and I think all of the acting around the Perry/Mary Louise/Celeste/Jane story is very good.  

I concur that Maddie's speech to the assembly was a little stupid.  How about the fact that some of these parents are in their twenties and have no idea what "Rainbow Connection" is?  I'm in my thirties, and I wouldn't have known it if someone hadn't explained it to me as an adult.  

The whole ordering of the fish at the restaurant by Jane's date was insufferable.  I was a server once.  What generally happens is that we go back into the kitchen and ask the chef, "hey, John, the guy at table 22 wants to know if the fish is farmed or fresh" with a straight face, but irony dripping from our voices, and the chef responds however he wants with similar irony, potentially saying something very indelicate about the actual source of the fish and bringing the patron's mom into it.  Nothing real is ever accomplished.  Even if a server were to get an earnest answer, the next chef on the next shift would have a different answer.  It bothered me--and I think this was just bad writing--that the date had half a dozen other questions for the server, but didn't ask them at the time; he only posed them to Jane--so, ostensibly, the server was going to come back to the table and he was going to ask additional questions?  Duuuude.  Go jump in a lake.  Hopefully you can come back up to surface with a few organically raised fish in your hands that you can cook your damn self.

I understand where Celeste is coming from, about not wanting to throw the baby out with the bath water with regard to her deceased husband.  Yes, he abused her, but he is dead.  He's no longer an immediate physical threat to her.  She can take the time she needs to sort out exactly how she wants to remember him.  This is an unfortunate reality, but a lot of people are really fucked up.  My grandpa was supposedly an alcoholic who hit his kids (my dad and aunts and uncle) when they were bad, but I am not going to hate him.  He's dead, and these things ended decades before I was born, and I have warm memories of him that I have no intention of giving up.  My dad doesn't hold resentment either, even though some other family members do.  Everyone is entitled to their own grief and their own process.  The therapist wasn't there with Celeste and Perry in their private interactions.  I am not a fan of the whole slippery slope argument that *if* Perry had landed a kick on Celeste's head, she *might* be dead.  That seems too tangential to me.  From my professional perspective--which is about 180 degrees from a therapist--and just my life experience, we can really only pin things on people that actually happened.  If Perry were still alive, there would be far more merit in the therapist pointing this out as a possibility. I'm not even saying it's out of the realm of what is therapeutic to suggest it now.  I'm just saying that it's too "coulda, shoulda, woulda" for my personal perspective on people's interactions and the consequences that manifest from there.

I must have liked this episode, because it seemed short to me.  I could have sat through a half dozen more Maddy/Ed scenes.  They're interesting to me.  

[txhorns79]

7 hours ago, Razzberry said:

Jane won't let Ziggy's grandmother into his life, but the new weirdo she's dating - no problem.  Not that I blame her, but I'm not convinced Mary Louise is a terrible person. 

I'd look at it more like she won't let her rapist's mother into her life.  I'd agree it's not clear if Mary Louise is a terrible person, but I'd probably have to be under court order before I'd let her around my child. 

[sashayshante]

I'm not sure anyone other than Bonnie feels bad about how Perry died. I think what has them unraveling is the threat of the cover up being revealed. Ultimately, Renata and Madelyn only care about themselves and what other people think if them. They always need to control the dynamic.  I think both would rather go to prison than to lose the upper hand or be considered a social outcast.

[LibertarianSlut]

I wish they would just lawyer up and come clean then.  Plenty of attorneys would take this case pro bono for those who can't afford decent counselors.  Now it's affecting their spouses and families.  Obstruction of justice is a pretty big deal, but I doubt anyone would have to go to jail.  No one is going to get them on a manslaughter charge.  It only takes one juror to destroy reasonable doubt.  They'd get a slap on the wrist and life would move on IMO.  If they're holding onto this for fear of being social outcasts, then may I suggest some major group therapy! Lol

I'm not sure how many people would care.  I would still buy a home from a realtor or retain an attorney who had rumor and innuendo surrounding them (blanking on Renata's career).  I doubt too many people would boycott the aquarium because one of their employees lied to the police...just IMO.

[izabella]

37 minutes ago, LibertarianSlut said:

he whole ordering of the fish at the restaurant by Jane's date was insufferable.  I was a server once.  What generally happens is that we go back into the kitchen and ask the chef, "hey, John, the guy at table 22 wants to know if the fish is farmed or fresh" with a straight face, but irony dripping from our voices, and the chef responds however he wants with similar irony, potentially saying something very indelicate about the actual source of the fish and bringing the patron's mom into it.  Nothing real is ever accomplished.  Even if a server were to get an earnest answer, the next chef on the next shift would have a different answer.  It bothered me--and I think this was just bad writing--that the date had half a dozen other questions for the server, but didn't ask them at the time; he only posed them to Jane--so, ostensibly, the server was going to come back to the table and he was going to ask additional questions?  Duuuude.  Go jump in a lake.  Hopefully you can come back up to surface with a few organically raised fish in your hands that you can cook your damn self.

It's like, dude, don't order the fucking fish then!  Order something less likely to poison you if that's your worry.

[Razzberry]

I'd love to see Mary Louise's arc about her gradual acceptance of the truth about Perry, sticking around to be a thorn in their sides but an awesome Grandma to the three boys.   I doubt Streep would sign on for another season though.

[zobot81]

1 hour ago, Blakeston said:

We've known since season 1 that the therapist is unprofessional. She flat-out violated confidentiality rules by having appointments with Celeste behind Perry's back (which is a big no-no when you're a couples counselor).

However, despite her unprofessionalism, she seems to be doing a great service to almost everyone she sees. She's talking sense into Celeste, whose lack of perspective is deeply troubling. And she has Madeline pegged, even if Madeline doesn't realize it.

The one person she seemed to be wrong about was Ed, when she suggested that Ed had betrayed Madeline by being indifferent. He's been overly passive, but never indifferent.

But what is the rule if a therapist strongly suspects that one client/spouse is physically abusing the other one, and/or believes that the potential victim's life is in danger?

(Edit: I see that you addressed this previously).

Edited June 24, 2019 by zobot81
Previously answered

[teddysmom]

1 hour ago, QuinnM said:

Maybe Officer Trudy Wiegel ( Reno 911) got through to Annabella  

49 minutes ago, sashayshante said:

I'm not sure anyone other than Bonnie feels bad about how Perry died. I think what has them unraveling is the threat of the cover up being revealed. Ultimately, Renata and Madelyn only care about themselves and what other people think if them. They always need to control the dynamic.  I think both would rather go to prison than to lose the upper hand or be considered a social outcast.

The detective would have to convince a prosecutor that Bonnie, along with the others, conspired to murder Perry, which is ridiculous.  Bonnie barely knew Perry, if at all. Motive?  

In a public place?  A School?  Outside in front of everyone? While he was brutally kicking Celeste? 

[BeatrixK]

31 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

I'd love to see Mary Louise's arc about her gradual acceptance of the truth about Perry, sticking around to be a thorn in their sides but an awesome Grandma to the three boys.   I doubt Streep would sign on for another season though.

Yeah -- I cannot see Streep in for a second season.  And, honestly -- the other actresses are decided A-listers and have to have other projects in the works so being tied to a series may not be in the long term future for these girls...so I will not be surprised if we end up with this as the last season.

But please...for the love of God give me a shopping list of Madaline's wardrobe before it goes.

[meep.meep]

49 minutes ago, izabella said:

It's like, dude, don't order the fucking fish then!  Order something less likely to poison you if that's your worry.

The character works for the Monterey Bay Aquarium.  They put out Seafood Watch - a list of different types of seafood and the best sources for that type if sustainability of ocean resources is important to you.  It's important to me, and these are the kinds of questions that I would ask of a server.  Where did it come from?  How was it harvested? etc.

Any decent restaurant should be able to answer those questions.  Especially in Monterey.  

[sashayshante]

9 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

The detective would have to convince a prosecutor that Bonnie, along with the others, conspired to murder Perry, which is ridiculous.  Bonnie barely knew Perry, if at all. Motive?  

The lie in and of itself could be considered a crime.

The fact they lied implies they know what happened could result in charges of manslaughter. Which it was.  She pushed him down the stairs. That wasn't an accident. It was intentional. She may have been protecting Celeste, but in that moment, it wasn't about Celeste at all. What she saw triggered feelings of seeing her mother/father be abused. It's not cut and dry. law enforcement and the judicial system aren't terribly sympathetic to women who are victims of abuse.

[teddysmom]

16 minutes ago, sashayshante said:

She pushed him down the stairs.

Saying Bonnie was "triggered" goes to state of mind, and the prosecutor can't say what was in Bonnie's mind.  She can say she saw a friend being hurt, the other woman were pulling at him, and she just ran to help. 

Even Madelyn saying "he slipped" may not be a complete lie.  He was pushed, and then he slipped. 

The therapist could testify, so that Celeste has contemporaneous corroboration of his abuse, and five witnesses saw him kicking Celeste. 

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, LibertarianSlut said:

The whole ordering of the fish at the restaurant by Jane's date was insufferable.  I was a server once.  What generally happens is that we go back into the kitchen and ask the chef, "hey, John, the guy at table 22 wants to know if the fish is farmed or fresh" with a straight face, but irony dripping from our voices, and the chef responds however he wants with similar irony, potentially saying something very indelicate about the actual source of the fish and bringing the patron's mom into it.  Nothing real is ever accomplished.  

Well, I live on the west coast, and lived in Hawaii as well.  No one here will touch farmed fish, and those questions would be asked and answered honestly in any decent restaurant I've ever been in. 

He was an ass, but the questions were not "out there" for places by the sea.  They might be more "out there" in Omaha, but most definitely not in Monterey.

2 hours ago, Blakeston said:

I don't see anything in that link about providing counseling to a couple, while also seeing one spouse individually on the side without the other spouse's knowledge.

I read quite a few comments from therapists during season one saying that the therapist's secret sessions with Celeste were a violation of confidentiality rules, even in an abusive relationship.

It was life and death.  Celeste just showed up, the therapist, at least the first time it happened, hadn't set up the individual session.  Would it have been ethical to turn away an obviously distraught woman who was being beaten and choked?

As the therapist said "Report me." 

There are all kinds of therapists, and they, the good ones, adjust to what the client needs.  It's not all "tell me about your mother..."

28 minutes ago, sashayshante said:

The lie in and of itself could be considered a crime.

The fact they lied implies they know what happened could result in charges of manslaughter. Which it was.  She pushed him down the stairs. That wasn't an accident. It was intentional. She may have been protecting Celeste, but in that moment, it wasn't about Celeste at all. What she saw triggered feelings of seeing her mother/father be abused. It's not cut and dry. law enforcement and the judicial system aren't terribly sympathetic to women who are victims of abuse.

The lies are crimes, obstruction of justice at the very least.

Bonnie didn't plan on pushing him down the stairs, she was shoving him off Celeste, a woman he was in the process of killing.  If anything, her "intent" was to stop Perry from killing Celeste.  The stairs were under construction and rebar killed him.

This would have been dismissed immediately had they told the truth.  There was no intent of murder, there was "defense of others" and Perry, now beating his wife in public, was obviously trying to kill her this time.  Stopping someone from killing another person is not a punished crime, even if it results in that person's death.  At most she would have had community service.

I just posted an article in the media thread that has a very interesting theory about why lying was the "go to" for some of these women.  It ties into living with lies.

ETA UC Santa Cruz is not 12 miles away.  With traffic it would be over an hour each way.  It's about 45 miles away.

I lived near Santa Cruz and went to Montery all the time.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Umbelina

[Penman61]

35 minutes ago, sashayshante said:

She pushed him down the stairs. That wasn't an accident. It was intentional. She may have been protecting Celeste, but in that moment, it wasn't about Celeste at all. What she saw triggered feelings of seeing her mother/father be abused. It's not cut and dry. law enforcement and the judicial system aren't terribly sympathetic to women who are victims of abuse.

Bonnie definitely intended to push him. Whether she intended to push him down the stairs is debatable, and definitely defendable if charges or a lawsuit are ever brought. 

A good defense lawyer would have many mitigating circumstances: heat of the moment, defending against violence, dark & hard to see, didn't realize stairs were there, et al., to argue she didn't intend to push him down the stairs.

I expect but fear the show will come down to some legal case about this.  That's a shame because I think exploring Bonnie's guilt is interesting in and of itself. It's of a piece with exploring Celeste's ambivalence about Perry's memory, i.e., emotions that we actually feel don't stay inside the lines of what we should feel.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Penman61

[Chaos Theory]

3 hours ago, Blakeston said:

We've known since season 1 that the therapist is unprofessional. She flat-out violated confidentiality rules by having appointments with Celeste behind Perry's back (which is a big no-no when you're a couples counselor).

However, despite her unprofessionalism, she seems to be doing a great service to almost everyone she sees. She's talking sense into Celeste, whose lack of perspective is deeply troubling. And she has Madeline pegged, even if Madeline doesn't realize it.

The one person she seemed to be wrong about was Ed, when she suggested that Ed had betrayed Madeline by being indifferent. He's been overly passive, but never indifferent.

I don’t know.  I read an article that said a lot of real life psychiatrist appreciated how realistic she is.   That once she suspected abuse that she had every right to have separate appointments.   They liked how she asked more questions then “how does this make you feel”.  I think the psychiatrist is doing a good job of getting to the source of both Celeste and Madeline’s trauma.     I don’t think she is being the least bit unprofessional.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Chaos Theory

[jeansheridan]

On 6/23/2019 at 7:02 PM, mojoween said:

Also, am I crazy, or is teaching second graders that Charlotte’s Web is about sustainability insane?  Also also, Teach, why didn’t you notice that Amabella was missing before she fainted in the closet?

I don't think it is bad to integrate science with literature. It helps make connections. Charlotte's Web pushed me towards being a vegetarian as a kid. It was also my first book with a death of a beloved character. 

I like Jane's potential guy. He is socially awkward but he respected her boundaries without pushing. Yeah, he met Ziggy fast but if they were just friends, would it be too fast? I kind of assume he knew she was a mom. Why else would she be one of the Monterey 5? 

Jane is also way kinder than me. But she has the strength NOT to slap Mary Louise which I admire. So far I feel like Shailene and Zoe are giving the most nuanced performances this year.

I hated Reese's speech. I did like her with Abigail. Both scenes were solid. Quiet, comforting. 

I also feel like Reese realized the therapy scenes were great last year so why not get some for me. 

Laura/Renata is unhinged and no fun to watch. Being rude to a doctor just isn't smart. Being rude to your husband in front of your stressed out daughter is out of line. She has no common sense.

Edited June 25, 2019 by jeansheridan
Spelling

[iMonrey]

Quote

The character works for the Monterey Bay Aquarium.  They put out Seafood Watch - a list of different types of seafood and the best sources for that type if sustainability of ocean resources is important to you.  It's important to me, and these are the kinds of questions that I would ask of a server.  Where did it come from?  How was it harvested? etc.

Any decent restaurant should be able to answer those questions.  Especially in Monterey.  

I don't eat seafood so I have no dog in this hunt, but . . .

I would expect that someone with those kinds of priorities would either a.) go to a restaurant where they already know where the fish comes from or b.) not eat at a restaurant at all. What happens when you find out you don't like where they got their fish from? Do you get up and walk out? Call ahead if that's the only thing you would order there.

I also expect that if this is a big deal to a lot of diners, the restaurant already specifies where they fish comes from on the menu or advertises it prominently elsewhere.

It seems presumptuous to go to a restaurant and then start grilling the server (no pun intended) about the origins of their food. 

[sashayshante]

Just now, iMonrey said:

I would expect that someone with those kinds of priorities would either a.) go to a restaurant where they already know where the fish comes from or b.) not eat at a restaurant at all.

The over the topness of this scene makes me think they were laying the ground work for Corey being some kind of plant or informant. He was trying too hard to prove he was some kind of expert.

I think Corey is someone Mary Louise or the detective found to get close to Jane to learn the truth about Perry.

[Magoo]

3 hours ago, LibertarianSlut said:

I must have liked this episode, because it seemed short to me.  I could have sat through a half dozen more Maddy/Ed scenes.  They're interesting to me.

I thought it felt short, too, and made a mental note that the end credits started running at almost exactly 45-mins.  That included the beginning with promos from upcoming HBO shows + the 'Previously On' BLL scenes.  This episode from start to finish was probably barely 35-37 mins long.  It annoys me that a lot of the HBO dramas do this -- I'd like much closer to an hour from a show I'm paying a monthly fee to watch.  /endpetulantrant

Edited June 24, 2019 by Magoo
errant word

[Ms Blue Jay]

8 hours ago, LibertarianSlut said:

I'm not sure how Jane is surviving if she's not cashing the Celeste checks.  She is working what is almost definitely a minimum wage job and she has a child and not only finds a way to get their needs met, but when she met Bonnie on the beach, her outfit looked very expensive.  Just because it's casualwear doesn't make it cheap. I'm guessing it took upwards of $1,000 to dress the actress head to toe.  Took me out of the scene.

Same with her hipster clothes and her hipster haircut and her hipster beanie at the opening of the show!  Totally unrealistic.  It drives me nuts!

 

8 hours ago, LibertarianSlut said:

I must have liked this episode, because it seemed short to me.  I could have sat through a half dozen more Maddy/Ed scenes.  They're interesting to me.  

I agree, and I love Reese's acting.  

7 hours ago, BeatrixK said:

Yeah -- I cannot see Streep in for a second season.  And, honestly -- the other actresses are decided A-listers and have to have other projects in the works so being tied to a series may not be in the long term future for these girls...so I will not be surprised if we end up with this as the last season.

But please...for the love of God give me a shopping list of Madaline's wardrobe before it goes.

Reese is actually starting a new show with Jennifer Aniston for Netflix!  And yes...... agree with you about Mad's wardrobe.

 

6 hours ago, sashayshante said:

The fact they lied implies they know what happened could result in charges of manslaughter. Which it was.  She pushed him down the stairs. That wasn't an accident. It was intentional. She may have been protecting Celeste, but in that moment, it wasn't about Celeste at all. What she saw triggered feelings of seeing her mother/father be abused. It's not cut and dry. law enforcement and the judicial system aren't terribly sympathetic to women who are victims of abuse.

When you push someone down the stairs in the "heat of the moment" or in "self defence" to protect another person, there are a whole bunch of defences  to the crime here.  It absolutely not Murder 1 in any way shape or form (murder with "cold blooded" intent or planning).  No way, and it could not be spun that way at all.  I agree it would be manslaughter most likely because of all the circumstances surrounding it.

It would be incredibly hard to prove Bonnie intended to murder, which she most certainly did not, so there is no chance of murder with intent charges here.  It's definitely an accidental death.  Pushing him down the stairs is intentional, but that's just assault.  Murdering him was absolutely an accident.  I think.  I'd have to watch the scene again.  There's no way she intended that.

There's also the circumstance of that construction stuff that ended up impaling him, right?  It's not like Bonnie had anything to do with planting that there.

[izabella]

1 minute ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I don't know.  I took Criminology.  When you push someone down the stairs in the "heat of the moment" or in "self defence" to protect another person, there are a whole bunch of defences here.  It absolutely not Murder 1 in any way shape or form (murder with "cold blooded" intent or planning).  No way, and it could not be spun that way at all.  It would be manslaughter most likely because of all the circumstances surrounding it.

It seems like a manslaughter charge and conviction is also something the women would want to avoid.  I guess Celeste could pay for Bonnie's defense, but otherwise, she'd be sunk.  Bonnie doesn't look like she is as wealthy as the other women.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Yes but just because the prosecution would charge Bonnie with manslaughter, it doesn't mean that the prosecution team will necessarily win.  The onus is on the prosecution to prove their case for a conviction.  That's why I mention all of the mitigating circumstances and possible defences that one could use in that situation.

There's also chances for a plea deal, reduced sentencing, probation, etc.  That's why I mention manslaughter.  It's a much less serious charge.  If Bonnie did use Celeste, then she probably wouldn't have to pay anything.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[Umbelina]

53 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I don't eat seafood so I have no dog in this hunt, but . . .

I would expect that someone with those kinds of priorities would either a.) go to a restaurant where they already know where the fish comes from or b.) not eat at a restaurant at all. What happens when you find out you don't like where they got their fish from? Do you get up and walk out? Call ahead if that's the only thing you would order there.

I also expect that if this is a big deal to a lot of diners, the restaurant already specifies where they fish comes from on the menu or advertises it prominently elsewhere.

It seems presumptuous to go to a restaurant and then start grilling the server (no pun intended) about the origins of their food. 

Maybe it's because as an adult I've always lived near the ocean, but servers are expected to be able to answer these questions on their own, they shouldn't have to run and ask the chef.

He was rude and over the top, but those kind of questions are far more the norm than the exception when you live by the sea, as these characters do.  In addition, they are in a very nice area.  No decent restaurant in Monterey would serve farmed fish, ditto for sustainability issues, or even "previously frozen." 

Being absolutely sure something is wild caught though?  Is something I would do while deciding what to order.  Frankly, most specials probably include "sustainable, fresh, wild caught" in the descriptions here, and I just live in a normal seaside town now.  When I lived in the Monterey Bay area?  I would have asked if it wasn't already on the menu, which?  It probably would be, since people care about those things.  I would never be rude about it though.

[Melina22]

Unlike many, I found this episode wildly entertaining. I like the complexity of the characters and how hard it is to figure some of them out. Is Mary Louise evil or just an angry, grieving mother? Is the therapist clever and perceptive, or totally unprofessional? Is Renata a monster, or... well, okay, in this episode she's definitely a monster. Was Perry 100% evil, or just...70%? 

I like how all the friends tell each other everything and support each other. It feels like my own life, rather than the tired trope of catty, backstabby female friends. 

Finally, this is one of the only series I watch where I never skip the credits. I love the song, love the opening montage, and especially love the gorgeous ocean imagery and sound throughout. The production values are amazing on my big screen TV. 

Can't wait for next week. 

Edited June 24, 2019 by Melina22

[Chaos Theory]

1 hour ago, izabella said:

It seems like a manslaughter charge and conviction is also something the women would want to avoid.  I guess Celeste could pay for Bonnie's defense, but otherwise, she'd be sunk.  Bonnie doesn't look like she is as wealthy as the other women.

But there are other mitagating factors that might have come into play for them when they decided to lie even if it was ill advised.  Do they have any real proof that it was self defense and them not just attacking Perry?  Celeste was planning to leave Perry and a lawyer could call it suspect that on the day she planned to leave a bunch of women attack him.  Then there is the whole Jane of it all.  Another reason to kill Perry.    It looks like mob violence just as as clearly as it does an accident.  

Edited June 24, 2019 by Chaos Theory

[Anela]

10 hours ago, Haleth said:

I was with the moms-- wtf?  Turning Charlotte's Web into a story about sustainability for 2nd graders?  There has to be a better way to discuss climate change without giving 8yos panic attacks.  Poor sensitive Amabella!  (However the "rebranding" line was hilarious.)

Same. I was fine with Renata letting loose on the teacher. When my sister was around the same age, our headmaster of our little school, decided that he was going to teach a "current events" class to her age group. Her behaviour was off, and she was having nightmares. When mum found out, she went off on him over the phone, and they arranged to talk in person, at school. When she arrived, he told her that other parents had the same reaction, so he was putting an end to it.

I see all of the comments that they should be moving on from this guy's death. He was a father to those boys, it's going to take a lot longer than a year for them to get past it (and Celeste). My mother went into the hospital three years ago from today's date, and didn't come home. She died a month later. I'm not over it. Neither is my dad. Bonnie pushed him, so she's not going to be over it any time soon. If they hadn't lied, they might be doing better, since he was an abusive prick. 

[Razzberry]

2 hours ago, sashayshante said:

I think Corey is someone Mary Louise or the detective found to get close to Jane to learn the truth about Perry.

I like this.  Wouldn't put it past Mary Louise at all.  He could bag some DNA while he's at it

[Ms Blue Jay]

2 hours ago, Melina22 said:

Finally, this is one of the only series I watch where I never skip the credits. I love the song, love the opening montage, and especially love the gorgeous ocean imagery and sound throughout. The production values are amazing on my big screen TV. 

Same.

15 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

I like this.  Wouldn't put it past Mary Louise at all.  He could bag some DNA while he's at it

I really thought that if Mary Louise was near Ziggy she'd try to pull out or tear out some of his hair.

[txhorns79]

18 hours ago, FemmyV said:

Mary Louise's narcissism on Perry's behalf. How can anyone sit at a table and talk about her sweet, gentle son, and imagine that shit is going to earn her a pass into the life of the grandson that was gotten by rape?

I honestly would love to know Mary Louise's game plan for all this.  With Celeste, I feel like she is gathering evidence to take those kids, and with Jane, I have no clue.  She says grossly offensive things to Jane that would seem to argue against Mary Louise having any role in Ziggy's life. 

Quote

Yeah I liked the teacher til the Charlotte's Web bs.  

It's very easy to teach small children about recycling, schools do it all the time without mass hysteria breaking out. 

For all of Renata's yelling, she was right that the teacher was an idiot.  If you have an 8 year old going having a panic attack like Amabella did over climate change, you are a bad teacher.     

[ElectricBoogaloo]

On the one hand, any restaurant that serves wild/local fish/meat/ingredients almost always includes that information in the description of the dish, so the chances are if the menu does not specifically say it's wild/local/ethically sourced, it's NOT.

On the other hand, local wild fish is what people expect in a town like Monterey because DUH, fishing was and still is part of Monterey. For that reason, there might be some local restaurants (meaning not the more touristy places near the aquarium, Cannery Row, Fisherman's Wharf, etc. - places where the residents eat) that don't put that info on the menu because it's expected that of course you would have local wild fish on the menu.

It's not at all surprising to me that someone who lives in Monterey cares if the fish they're eating is wild or farmed. Even though not everyone who lives there is as loaded as Celeste and Renata, it's a fairly affluent community aka people who can afford to pay for organic produce and wild local fish. On top of that, Corey works at the aquarium so he is hyper aware of the issues regarding farmed fish. He could have been less abrasive when asking the waitress, but I find it hard to believe that a waitress at a restaurant in Monterey wouldn't already know that.

3 hours ago, Melina22 said:

Was Perry 100% evil, or just...70%? 

Ha, this cracked me up. I'd guess he was more like 85% evil. That other 15% is what allowed him to love his kids (and I'm sure his mom).

1 minute ago, txhorns79 said:

For all of Renata's yelling, she was right that the teacher was an idiot.  If you have an 8 year old going having a panic attack like Amabella did over climate change, you are a bad teacher.     

As someone who is friends with a lot of elementary school teachers, most of the time it is NOT the teacher's fault when a kid has a problem. As we learned in this episode, Amabella is picking up on the stress at home. And a the principal pointed out, the school is there to serve all the kids, not just to cater to Amabella. Some kids are more sensitive or have wilder imaginations that will blow things out of proportion (I was one of those kids). That doesn't mean that they should completely forego discussing things like climate change because someone MIGHT freak out.

From what we heard the teacher saying to the class, he wasn't giving the kids any scary "THE WORLD IS GOING TO BE ENGULFED IN FLAMES AND YOU ARE GOING TO DIIIIIIIIEEEEEE" letures. He was talking about how much water it takes for this and that, how many showers that translates to, etc. which is really just telling them the impact that things can have on. I don't think it's a bad thing for kids to learn that one person's choice can affect other people. There are a lot of grownups who could stand to learn that lesson, frankly.

[txhorns79]

1 minute ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

That doesn't mean that they should completely forego discussing things like climate change because someone MIGHT freak out.

Who suggested the teacher should forgo discussing climate change?  I thought the fact one of his students had a panic attack, suggested that his lesson plans were not age appropriate and he needed to rethink his entire approach to the topic. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

5 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

Who suggested the teacher should forgo discussing climate change?  I thought the fact one of his students had a panic attack, suggested that his lesson plans were not age appropriate and he needed to rethink his entire approach to the topic. 

I didn't think anything we heard the teacher say was inappropriate for their age.

Mr. Perkins: "Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive."
Ziggy: But Charlotte didn't say that. She said, "Some pig." She didn't say anythng about a tangled web.
Mr. Perkins: She certainly spun one. She made Wilbur out to be an outlier when in truth, he was kind of ordinary. So, Ziggy, does that make Charlotte a liar?
Ziggy: It makes a grownup. Lying to protect someone she loves - that's what grownups do.
Chloe: I think she was just rebranding Wilbur.
Mr. Perkins: Rebranding? I see. Well, you all want to know what I think? I think Charlotte didn't want Wilbur to get eaten. I don't think she wanted any pigs to be eaten, and we all know why, don't we?
Students: Sustainability.
Mr. Perkins: Exactly. Exactly. How many gallons of water does it take to make a single pound of sausage? 
Students: A thousand. 
Mr. Perkins: A thousand gallons. And how many showers does that add up to? 
Students: Over 50. 
Mr. Perkins: Over 50 showers. So imagine, would you have to take a shower every single day for almost two months-

If that conversation was enough to cause Amabella to have a panic attack then she might be too delicate to live in this world. I'm pretty sure that her parents screaming at each other, her mom yelling at everyone in sight, her dad getting arrested, and her mom being a constant stressball caused her panic attack more than talking about how many showers it takes to use a thousand gallons of water. Just because it happened while they were discussing Charlotte's Web doesn't mean that conversation is what caused it. You can only smush down your anxiety for so long before it manifests itself somehow (or as we learned on Seinfeld - serenity now, insanity later).

[stagmania]

13 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I think people are missing the point about the ladies especially Renata;  yes she is a raging lunatic but her husband made a point to tell her that she has changed since that party where Perry died and both he and their daughter have noticed. All the ladies have in one way or another returned to their basest instincts and it’s interesting to watch.   Because they are all self destructing because of it.

Ding ding ding! Thank you so much for saying it. The ladies are more over the top and taking it to eleven in every scene this season - which is the point. They're traumatized and lying about it and none of them are coping well.

12 hours ago, tomsmom said:

I have to keep reminding myself that it’s been a year since Perry died. Move the eff on.

This sentiment is absolutely wild to me. They watched their friend get nearly beaten to death by her husband. They had to get involved in the fight themselves and got hurt. Bonnie killed him. They lied to protect her and are still worried they'll be caught. Celeste lost her husband. Jane discovered her rapist and then watched him die the same night. Their sons lost their father. But they're supposed to just be over all that in a matter of months? That's the kind of shit you never get over, especially if you can't or won't seek help.

This episode was a bit of a filler, but I still enjoyed it. I was delighted to see Maddie and Ed go to Celeste's therapist, and I thought it was an interesting little character note for the therapist that she first went to the assumption that Ed was at fault. It's refreshing to see him stand up for himself a little, and so telling that Maddie can't deal with it at all. She still expects him to accommodate her and her feelings even in this situation, and she still isn't telling him the whole truth. I got the feeling in that scene with Ed and Celeste that he knows that, too, and it's part of his hostility. He knows there's still another secret lurking and Maddie has completely boxed him out.

I understood why Celeste lashed out at him, too - she's Maddie's best friend and ultimately on her side no matter what. Plus you could tell from her comment that he would never leave Maddie that she doesn't think much of Ed in the first place. I must say I could not believe Mary Louise was still in Celeste's house after last week. Once a woman looks you in the face and says she doesn't believe you were abused, there's really no coming back from that. Celeste is just so passive, and I cannot believe she didn't warn Jane that she'd set Mary Louise loose on her.

I will give Mary Louise credit for one thing: she is honest to a fault. She's not being sneaky at all; she straight up told Jane she didn't believe Perry raped her and was looking for proof. What I found unbelievable is that Jane would talk to her after that. How could you even entertain letting a woman like that into your child's life? Or her weird new boyfriend, for that matter? Poor Ziggy has been through enough.

I still want to know what's up with Bonnie's mother and all these references to her secret former life. I hope they get back to that next week.

[txhorns79]

32 minutes ago, stagmania said:

I will give Mary Louise credit for one thing: she is honest to a fault. She's not being sneaky at all; she straight up told Jane she didn't believe Perry raped her and was looking for proof.

I'll just say that Mary Louise is the same person who was also sneakingly going through Celeste's medicine cabinet.  She isn't honest to a fault.  She's just a woman with an agenda. 

45 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

If that conversation was enough to cause Amabella to have a panic attack then she might be too delicate to live in this world.

I would presume the lesson on the topic was longer than the two minutes we saw.  That assembly appeared pretty full with upset parents, so I'm guessing it was at least a school wide issue. 

[jeansheridan]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

teacher was an idiot.  If you have an 8 year old going having a panic attack like Amabella did over climate change, you are a bad teacher.     

One admittedly sensitive child under a lot of stress at home had a panic attack. The rest were cool. There's nothing wrong with pointing out the environmental cost of meat. Or what it costs for us to have cheap vegetables. 

I like the teacher. I think the principal is too overtly snide but he backed his staff member. 

What about that hilarious Little Bo Peep therapist! Is that a real thing? Educate me. 🙂

 

6 hours ago, sashayshante said:

The over the topness of this scene makes me think they were laying the ground work for Corey being some kind of plant or informant. He was trying too hard to prove he was some kind of expert

Or he just a dorky guy with little game who was trying to impress his date (badly, but Jane is a kind person). 

I don't think this show is all that twisty. I think he is what he appears to be--a potential for Jane. She is getting herself ready. 

She implied in this ep she was most likely a virgin or nearly one when Perry raped her. Jane is figuring out what works for herself. This may not be the forever guy but she's trying. And I think he was sensitive when it counted.

[stagmania]

41 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I'll just say that Mary Louise is the same person who was also sneakingly going through Celeste's medicine cabinet.  She isn't honest to a fault.  She's just a woman with an agenda. 

An agenda she is openly telling anyone who will listen about. And she was hardly sneaking - she had the lights on, snooping in Celeste’s bathroom while Celeste was at home. She just doesn’t give a fuck who knows what she’s up to.

[jenn31]

15 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I think people are missing the point about the ladies especially Renata;  yes she is a raging lunatic but her husband made a point to tell her that she has changed since that party where Perry died and both he and their daughter have noticed. All the ladies have in one way or another returned to their basest instincts and it’s interesting to watch.   Because they are all self destructing because of it.

I did get that but making Renata more bat crazy isn’t that big a change except she’s acting like a 5-year-old. She’s already always so wound up, it would have had more impact if they had gone the opposite route and made her a bit more introverted. Like her husband said, putting that wall back up. How did her child even notice she was any different when she’s always a raving flake. 

[answerphone]

What do you think were the funniest moments from this episode?

1.  Dr Bo Peep removing her teeth.

2. The school principal blowing up.

[goldilocks]

15 hours ago, tomsmom said:

I have to keep reminding myself that it’s been a year since Perry died. Move the eff on.

A year is nothing. This is going to stay with them a long time. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

Renata is the worst mother. More concerned about keeping up her image than her child's health. Or at least to the extent Amabella's issues reflect badly on her public image.

So in Mary Louise's mind, if the woman initiated the physical contact she can't have been raped? Heaven help her. (And I'm guessing she's probably the type who also doesn't believe men can be raped.)

Hmm, I don't know about Jane letting that guy get so close to Ziggy so quickly. He seems to me to have boundary issues that are just waiting to be released in a hugely inappropriate and untimely way.

Ed has zero fcuks left. Maybe less than zero. It's amazing to me he lasted this long because Maddie is a lot.

By the looks of the previews, Mary Louise isn't just going to try to get Celeste's kids, she's going to go after Ziggy too.

Quote

I like that Celeste told ML straight up that she needed Vicodin for the pain after Perry hit/kicked her.

And I liked that ML had no comeback for once. "Oh, Celeste dear, maybe you're confused. Are you sure you weren't taking them for your tennis elbow?"

Quote

I will give Mary Louise credit for one thing: she is honest to a fault.

But the honesty only goes one way. She won't accept any honesty about Perry or herself.