S02.E03: The End of the World

[ProudMary]

9 hours ago, BeatrixK said:

But please...for the love of God give me a shopping list of Madaline's wardrobe before it goes.

Hope this helps:

https://wornontv.net/big-little-lies/madeline-martha-mackenzie/

[jeansheridan]

20 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

But the honesty only goes one way. She won't accept any honesty about Perry or herself.

The thing is, how hard would it be for a person to accept their child was 85% rotten? I think about Brock Turner's mom and how much she backed her son despite eye witnesses to the rape.

Madeline didn't know what he was. He hid his violence well. Celeste helped him hide. I can see how a mother would struggle to believe her little boy could turn out so wrong. Most of us dislike Mary Louise because we have more information than she has. We know Perry was violent.  But from her POV, Perry's death does stink and there's little proof of Celeste being beaten other than the night Perry died. If a guy was fighting for his life, he might hit back. I mean, those women were a mess. We know it took 5 women to bring him down. But from Mary Louise's POV a mob of women attacked her son. 

 

On 6/24/2019 at 4:33 PM, Melina22 said:

Unlike many, I found this episode wildly entertaining. I

Other than Reese's speech, I agree. I think Ed has the right level of anger. I liked seeing Celeste find her spine and snap at him and he snapped back. Abigail was a dream daughter this week. 

Oh and I liked seeing Bonnie connect with her mom when they sang. And yes, her mother dunked her, but now Bonnie can manage deep water (BTW, Pacific coast water is freezing so kudos to her for diving in). I feel like Bonnie is going to be okay and that makes me happy.

[txhorns79]

8 hours ago, stagmania said:

An agenda she is openly telling anyone who will listen about. And she was hardly sneaking - she had the lights on, snooping in Celeste’s bathroom while Celeste was at home. She just doesn’t give a fuck who knows what she’s up to.

She acted surprised when Celeste walked in on her, and offered up a lie about looking for something to help her sleep when confronted.  To me that would signal someone not looking to get caught.  Also, it's what got her asked to move out of Celeste's house, which presumably would not be part of her plan.     

[jeansheridan]

Entry level jobs at Monterey Bay Aquarium in the education area make $18-22 per hour so Jane's money is tight but not impossible. I wear beanies all the time on the beach because of the wind and Monterey gets cold. 

I kind of expect characters in glossy soapy shows to be dressed nicer than real life but I appreciated her work outfit was nicely dumpy. And her hair (which isn't fantastic) is kind of a standard West Coast look.

I don't love Shailene in general and in fact last season I had wanted a different actress (more Kristen Stewart...small, wired, angry) but I think her relaxed vibe suits a healing Jane. Making bad hair choices in your twenties is also kind a thing. I don't know if she intended for her hair to look that bad but it does make her stand out from all the blondes.

[teddysmom]

I think it's ridiculous that Celeste yells at Ed. She knows Madeline cheated on him, has lied to him, and now he's supposed to comfort her when the result of her selfish behavior finally hits her?  

20 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Madeline didn't know what he was. He hid his violence well. Celeste helped him hide. I can see how a mother would struggle to believe her little boy could turn out so wrong. Most of us dislike Mary Louise because we have more information than she has. We know Perry was violent.  But from her POV, Perry's death does stink and there's little proof of Celeste being beaten other than the night Perry died. If a guy was fighting for his life, he might hit back. I mean, those women were a mess. We know it took 5 women to bring him down. But from Mary Louise's POV a mob of women attacked her son. 

I think ML is delusional.  She's trying to keep up the idea that Perry was perfect because that's the only way she can live with what he really is, so she blames the women for killing him, or the idea of perfect Perry. She & Celeste have something in common, their delusional belief that Perry wasn't a bad person. 

 

21 hours ago, ProudMary said:

On 6/24/2019 at 1:51 PM, BeatrixK said:

But please...for the love of God give me a shopping list of Madaline's wardrobe before it goes.

Hope this helps:

https://wornontv.net/big-little-lies/madeline-martha-mackenzie/

How much you wanna bet a lot of this is from Draper James? 

https://draperjames.com/products/the-madeline-mackenzie-dress

[FemmyV]

22 hours ago, stagmania said:

An agenda she is openly telling anyone who will listen about. And she was hardly sneaking - she had the lights on, snooping in Celeste’s bathroom while Celeste was at home. She just doesn’t give a fuck who knows what she’s up to.

She wants to find out the truth of how her son died. Fair.

Along with the course of her search, we are finding out that her method of dealing with people is to: throw them off balance, attempt to induce massive amounts of pity (directed towards her) and combine it with guilt on her subjects for offenses they had absolutely nothing to do with.

In season one, we were introduced to Perry, a malignant narcissist. Now we're meeting his mother, the vulnerable narcissist. They, too, come with claws.

 

On 6/24/2019 at 8:09 PM, txhorns79 said:

I honestly would love to know Mary Louise's game plan for all this.  With Celeste, I feel like she is gathering evidence to take those kids, and with Jane, I have no clue.  She says grossly offensive things to Jane that would seem to argue against Mary Louise having any role in Ziggy's life. 

I wouldn't be at all surprised if she tried to get custody of Ziggy, considering Jane's lack of career. I was going to say resources, but I can't imagine how Jane could afford to rent anywhere in CA, let alone a place like Carmel, and raise a kid on the kind of jobs she's been working unless there's some kind of trust fund that we don't hear about.

[jeansheridan]

On 6/24/2019 at 4:23 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I'm glad that Jane fond someone who is fine with taking things slow. Honestly, it's kind of sad that the bar is set so low that I'm saying something positive about him simply because he isn't pushing Jane or dumping her because she isn't ready to have sex with him on the first date, but there you have it.

I feel like this show doesn't have the time to do a lengthy courtship. I get the feeling they have worked together for a while, they eat lunch together, he floats the idea of a date, and date. I feel like there is a lot we don't get to see which I am fine with. Like she took surfing lessons from him but we didn't see that.

Again, he must have known she had a kid. I think her awkwardly telling him was bad dialogue. He knew she was at the school so why else would she be there? 

And yes, I guess the bar is lowish but we have only had snippets of Corey. I guess I don't mind awkward.

And I do love the Ed/Maddie scenes. Ed being able to be direct and express himself clearly is a delight. I like how he was in the therapy session. Righteous but not defensive. He was also not charming like Perry was last session. 

 

7 hours ago, FemmyV said:

I was going to say resources, but I can't imagine how Jane could afford to rent anywhere in CA, let alone a place like Carmel, an

Low income people live in Monterey. Her actual apartment complex is unrealistic (most places near the beach are pricey) but people do it. And she doesn't live in Carmel. It's definitely Monterey. 

[izabella]

33 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

I wouldn't be at all surprised if she tried to get custody of Ziggy, considering Jane's lack of career. I was going to say resources, but I can't imagine how Jane could afford to rent anywhere in CA, let alone a place like Carmel, and raise a kid on the kind of jobs she's been working unless there's some kind of trust fund that we don't hear about.

Mary Louise cannot take Ziggy away because Jane doesn't have a career.  She has a job, a nice place for Ziggy to live, and he's well taken care of and goes to school. 

[Umbelina]

7 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Low income people live in Monterey. Her actual apartment complex is unrealistic (most places near the beach are pricey) but people do it. And she doesn't live in Carmel. It's definitely Monterey. 

I wonder if Celeste signed a long term lease on that apartment, and, since it's empty anyway, either rented it to Jane at a reduced price, or just told Jane "it's empty, you may as well live there, since it's already paid for." 

If so, perhaps the scene was cut? 

Anyway, I agree, it's possible to live there without big bucks, but not on the beach, and honestly, most people with lower incomes live in Seaside (next to Monterey city,) but much more affordable.  If she did though, she'd be in another school district.

That said "south Monterey" where that realtor told Celeste the apt was?  Is inland.  *unless she means Monterey County* That apartment seemed more like Carmel, but we know they film in So Cal.  Pacific Grove is also more affordable (barely) but there are no beach front houses or apartments there, (well, there are, but they are on the other side of the road, so a road between them.)

I just go with it, including that they always show the Bixby Bridge in the opening credits which is in Monterey County, but certainly no where near Monterey City.  Lots of towns in Monterey county though, from Salinas all the way down to Gorda which is part of the Big Sur coastline, including Carmel, Seaside, and a bunch of other cities. 

I'd assume, though all those cities are technically Monterey county, the districts are individual?  https://www.google.com/maps/search/monterey+county+california+school+district/@36.3028313,-121.5528412,8z

OK, as I said, I am just going with it, but they are playing around a bit with all of that.  No biggie.

Edited June 26, 2019 by Umbelina
)

[FozzyBear]

On 6/24/2019 at 6:36 AM, Eyes High said:

I know the plot requires that Amabella be at the same school as the other kids, but from everything we've seen, there's no way Renata wouldn't have had her child homeschooled from the start with specialized tutors. 

Yeah, there are a lot of things about Renata being there in general that don’t make much sense to me. I’d actually like to know how all these women came to live in Monterey (or Carmel-by-the-sea since that’s where these women would live). It’s not a big town and there’s aren’t a ton of reasons to live there besides the beauty and the lifestyle. It doesn’t have a huge economy. There is a California State University there, but it’s one of the smaller campuses and I wouldn’t describe it as a college town. It’s far enough away from San Francisco and San Jose  that I wouldn’t exactly call it a bedroom community. It’s a unique place to live and I wish we’d get more backstory on how the ended up there:

Maddie’s a local I think?

Celeste, I could see Perri liking the isolation of the location as a way of controlling her.

Bonnie is definitely a hippi and maybe came there for the lifestyle. Or because of Nathan?

Jane, I’m not sure. Maybe just to escape.

Renata I really don’t understand. It seems like she would live in the city or Silicon Valley. How did she end up there?

Edited June 25, 2019 by FozzyBear

[Blakeston]

On 6/24/2019 at 3:44 PM, Chaos Theory said:

I don’t know.  I read an article that said a lot of real life psychiatrist appreciated how realistic she is.   That once she suspected abuse that she had every right to have separate appointments.   They liked how she asked more questions then “how does this make you feel”.  I think the psychiatrist is doing a good job of getting to the source of both Celeste and Madeline’s trauma.     I don’t think she is being the least bit unprofessional.

I read the same article (at least I'm guessing it's the same article), and the therapist who praised the way Dr. Reisman handled the situation acknowledged that when you suspect domestic violence, you're really supposed to suggest to the couple that they do individual sessions.

That's not what Dr. Reisman did. What she did - meeting with one partner individually without the other partner even knowing about it - isn't really the way professionals are supposed to handle a situation like that.

I'm not faulting the therapist at all. Personally, if I were the therapist I'd say "screw ethics," and I'd do anything I could to get Celeste out of that situation, without Perry knowing a damn thing about it.

[FemmyV]

2 hours ago, izabella said:

Mary Louise cannot take Ziggy away because Jane doesn't have a career.  She has a job, a nice place for Ziggy to live, and he's well taken care of and goes to school. 

That doesn't mean she wouldn't try.

[Umbelina]

I'm getting the feeling Mary Louise is going to suspiciously drown near the finale episode.

[ProudMary]

3 hours ago, FemmyV said:

I wouldn't be at all surprised if she tried to get custody of Ziggy, considering Jane's lack of career. I was going to say resources, but I can't imagine how Jane could afford to rent anywhere in CA, let alone a place like Carmel, and raise a kid on the kind of jobs she's been working unless there's some kind of trust fund that we don't hear about.

I'm putting this behind spoiler tags as it's book related, but I'm 95% certain that Jane mentioned this to Maddie in an early Season 1 episode.

Spoiler

Jane does freelance bookkeeping for additional income.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 hour ago, ProudMary said:

I'm putting this behind spoiler tags as it's book related, but I'm 95% certain that Jane mentioned this to Maddie in an early Season 1 episode.

I remember her mentioning this in S1 as well so she may still be earning extra money that way (especially since it allows her to work from home, when Ziggy is asleep, etc).

[Razzberry]

Mary Louise would be a fool to try to take those kids.  It wouldn't matter if Jane worked part-time at Taco Bell, she simply has no case there.  As for the twins who already lost their father,  I think it would take more than a minor car accident, a couple of old prescriptions bottles and a disciplinary shove to rip them away from their mother.   And good luck seeing them after that, ML!  I'm not sure "grandparent rights" should even be a thing, but it might be her only recourse.

[scrb]

Maybe production wanted to use that apt. again because it's scenic.

Maybe also great logistics for the crew to film there, as opposed to some real modest place far away from all the oceanfront mansions for the other characters.

Remeber, TV homes have no correspondence to reality or how supposedly lower class people live.

In any event, I thought they filmed more in Malibu, not actually Monterey?

[Penman61]

3 hours ago, Blakeston said:

That's not what Dr. Reisman did. What she did - meeting with one partner individually without the other partner even knowing about it - isn't really the way professionals are supposed to handle a situation like that.

Now I'm curious exactly how this is supposed to work, according to therapists' professional ethics:

1. A couple in your care discloses during therapy that (say) the husband inflicts physical violence on the wife.
2. You strongly recommend that they supplement their couples' visits with individual visits.
3. The husband declines; the wife, without telling the husband, takes the therapist's recommendation.

• So: Is the therapist bound, ethically, to now disclose to the husband that the wife is having individual sessions?

[Ms Blue Jay]

19 hours ago, ProudMary said:

Hope this helps:

https://wornontv.net/big-little-lies/madeline-martha-mackenzie/

Thanks!  Reese's stupid perfect body looks so stupidly perfect in all those cute outfits.  It's too much!

[BingeyKohan]

On 6/24/2019 at 1:31 PM, LibertarianSlut said:

I concur that Maddie's speech to the assembly was a little stupid.  How about the fact that some of these parents are in their twenties and have no idea what "Rainbow Connection" is?  I'm in my thirties, and I wouldn't have known it if someone hadn't explained it to me as an adult.    

I so agree with this and would add it’s a running problem with the writing. Last season when they were still using the Greek chorus effect of other parents giving statements to the police one random Mom used a Betty Crocker/Betty Grable analogy to describe Madeline. The woman saying it was about 30 years old - not someone who would ever in her life think about either Betty. It drove me crazy. 

I’ve seen some debate here about whether it’s believable Renata would have evidenced a noticeable year-long change because of keeping the Perry secret. I will add my voice to those who don’t find it believable. It feels like lazy writing to have her husband give us that detail in a tell don’t show line. Her behavior is antic but it seems of a piece with someone like Renata who is facing the prospect of losing all her money and status. Which is a way more recent development than the Perry situation. But besides that she’s also been off because of Perry? And we have to take her husband’s word for it? It’s smallish (or big little) details like this that can add up to overall disappointment with how the season is shaping up.

[txhorns79]

4 hours ago, FemmyV said:

That doesn't mean she wouldn't try.

What exactly would her claim for custody be?  She has no relationship with Jane or Ziggy.  Her sole connection is as the parent of the guy who raped Jane.  But more to the point, it's hard to alter custody arrangements as the biological, full time parent of a child.  The chances of a random person with no real connection to the kid being given custody are slim to none.   

[Eyes High]

3 hours ago, Razzberry said:

Mary Louise would be a fool to try to take those kids.  It wouldn't matter if Jane worked part-time at Taco Bell, she simply has no case there.  

Yeah, it's often a conceit in movies/TV that a court will seriously entertain arguments that a child should be removed from the care of their parent simply because that parent is either poor, or not poor but not as rich as the relative wanting care of the child. Not how it works!

As for grandparent rights when it comes to Ziggy, at least, in California, as with certain other jurisdictions, the law requires that there be a pre-existing relationship between the grandparent and the grandchild. So in real life, Mary Louise would be SOL if she tried to go that route.

1 hour ago, BingeyKohan said:

I so agree with this and would add it’s a running problem with the writing. Last season when they were still using the Greek chorus effect of other parents giving statements to the police one random Mom used a Betty Crocker/Betty Grable analogy to describe Madeline. The woman saying it was about 30 years old - not someone who would ever in her life think about either Betty. It drove me crazy. 

Betty Grable references are what happen when you have a man over 60 writing the scripts, but yeah, good writing is tailoring the voices to the characters. David E. Kelley should know better. 

[SimonSeymour]

2 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

What exactly would her claim for custody be?  She has no relationship with Jane or Ziggy.  Her sole connection is as the parent of the guy who raped Jane.  But more to the point, it's hard to alter custody arrangements as the biological, full time parent of a child.  The chances of a random person with no real connection to the kid being given custody are slim to none.   

And, grandparents have no custody right, not even the right to visitation. 

[Crs97]

58 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

2 hours ago, BingeyKohan said:

I so agree with this and would add it’s a running problem with the writing. Last season when they were still using the Greek chorus effect of other parents giving statements to the police one random Mom used a Betty Crocker/Betty Grable analogy to describe Madeline. The woman saying it was about 30 years old - not someone who would ever in her life think about either Betty. It drove me crazy. 

 Betty Grable references are what happen when you have a man over 60 writing the scripts, but yeah, good writing is tailoring the voices to the characters. David E. Kelley should know better. 

In my 30’s, I would have made a Betty Grable reference before any timely pop culture reference.  I know nothing about the bands that were popular during my teenager years, but you can ask me anything you want about Frank Sinatra.  So I wasn’t bothered by some of those references.

[jeansheridan]

13 hours ago, scrb said:

any event, I thought they filmed more in Malibu, not actually Monterey?

They do exteriors around Monterey/Pacific Grove/Carmel. It looked like they were actually on Cannery Row when Mary Louise corners Jane at the Aquarium. And I have a cop aquaintance who met Kidman once last season when they were filming. He said she was stunning in RL. She looked exactly the way you would imagine.

The houses all look more Southern Californian. Celeste's house feels the most Central California with the trees all around. Maddie's seems pure Malibu.

 

16 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I'm getting the feeling Mary Louise is going to suspiciously drown near the finale episode.

I kind of hope not. More murder is not the solution. And I never really thought of this show as a murder mystery kind of show but I admittedly had read the book first. I would hope Streep wouldn't sign on for that and you know she got the entire script before joining. 

But if that was just a joke, sorry for taking it seriously. 

[Umbelina]

5 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

I kind of hope not. More murder is not the solution. And I never really thought of this show as a murder mystery kind of show but I admittedly had read the book first. I would hope Streep wouldn't sign on for that and you know she got the entire script before joining. 

But if that was just a joke, sorry for taking it seriously. 

Ha, no, I was serious.

Does Meryl Streep really want to do more than one season though?  Lots of drowning imagery and comments, and she's they one annoying everyone.

So, just guessing.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

On 6/24/2019 at 10:05 AM, Laurie4H said:

Did they ever say why Madelyn’s first husband left her?

According to Madeline this week: "because he's an asshole."

She has said multiple time that he walked out on her, that he left her, etc. but I don't recall either Madeline or Nathan ever giving a specific reason.

[Angeleyes]

On 6/24/2019 at 4:05 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

I agree, and I love Reese's acting.  

Reese is actually starting a new show with Jennifer Aniston for Netflix!  And yes...... agree with you about Mad's wardrobe.

She’s also filming a series on HULU based on the book Little Fires Everywhere 

I’m also loving the wardrobes on this show. I wish I could afford the Balmain jacket Renata wore this episode. I don’t normally go for crocodile things, but I loved the design of that jacket. 

[Crs97]

Didn’t Nathan just decide he wasn’t cut out to be a husband and father and walk out on them?  Which was why Madeline was particularly upset that he now has this loving family that Abigail wanted to live with? 

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

I think ML is delusional.  She's trying to keep up the idea that Perry was perfect because that's the only way she can live with what he really is, so she blames the women for killing him, or the idea of perfect Perry

Plus, I think for someone like ML, it's extremely problematic to accept that someone like this violent version Perry came from her body. She has to be wondering on some level how much of what he became was due to her, either genetically or because of the way she raised/treated him and his brother. It's a tough possible reality for her to accept mentally so that why she deflects by verbally going at whatever weakness she sees in Celeste and her pals.

I think Mary Louise is playing a long game to get those women accused of murdering Perry. Then she'll try to grab the three kids, starting with temporary custody while the women are perhaps in jail. Celeste and Jane don't have any other adult relatives nearby, do they? ML would say there's no point in putting the kids in foster care when their grandmother is right there to take care of them.

[FozzyBear]

I would like to get more backstory on Perri’s childhood. I think it’s entirely possible that he grew up in a violent household too. ML’s story about her father telling her to find the bully and make friends could be telling. Maybe ML’s father was violent and she was taught to align herself with bullies so she marries a violent man who raises a violent son who marries another submissive woman and raises more violent sons. I may be the only one, but I don’t read ML as in disbelief so much as denial about Perri.  

[msrachelj]

On 6/23/2019 at 10:04 PM, Chaos Theory said:

The psychiatrist is right about Celeste.  She is essentially like someone coming back from a war zone who misses the war.  I still think the scenes with the psychiatrist with Celeste and now Madeline are some of the best scenes of the show.   I keep waiting for Celeste to tell the Psychiatrist she Perry.

On the other side the little bow peer shrink was down right creepy.  Of course I can see the value.  Probably hella works for a second grader but it creeped me out.

i really liked the scene with Jane and Mary Louise.

i must be the only person who really loves Renata.  

i thought that insight from the shrink was fantastic.

[Umbelina]

4 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Plus, I think for someone like ML, it's extremely problematic to accept that someone like this violent version Perry came from her body. She has to be wondering on some level how much of what he became was due to her, either genetically or because of the way she raised/treated him and his brother. It's a tough possible reality for her to accept mentally so that why she deflects by verbally going at whatever weakness she sees in Celeste and her pals.

I think Mary Louise is playing a long game to get those women accused of murdering Perry. Then she'll try to grab the three kids, starting with temporary custody while the women are perhaps in jail. Celeste and Jane don't have any other adult relatives nearby, do they? ML would say there's no point in putting the kids in foster care when their grandmother is right there to take care of them.

I thought Jane's family was from Santa Cruz, so about an hour away.

[Angeleyes]

4 hours ago, FozzyBear said:

I would like to get more backstory on Perri’s childhood. I think it’s entirely possible that he grew up in a violent household too. ML’s story about her father telling her to find the bully and make friends could be telling. Maybe ML’s father was violent and she was taught to align herself with bullies so she marries a violent man who raises a violent son who marries another submissive woman and raises more violent sons. I may be the only one, but I don’t read ML as in disbelief so much as denial about Perri.  

Me too. I have my suspicions that the stories of how his dad and brother died might be significant and come into play later. 

[love2lovebadtv]

On 6/24/2019 at 3:06 PM, sashayshante said:

The lie in and of itself could be considered a crime.

The fact they lied implies they know what happened could result in charges of manslaughter. Which it was.  She pushed him down the stairs. That wasn't an accident. It was intentional. She may have been protecting Celeste, but in that moment, it wasn't about Celeste at all. What she saw triggered feelings of seeing her mother/father be abused. It's not cut and dry. law enforcement and the judicial system aren't terribly sympathetic to women who are victims of abuse.

I noticed Bonnie clutching her neck as if she had been triggered and instinctively knew something was about to happen, but I didn't think that had anything to do with her parents. We didn't see her parents, not even in flashbacks, until the second season. We only heard that Abigail liked spending time with Bonnie's mother, but nothing about abuse. I thought Madeline lied to avoid scrutiny from potentially unsympathetic law enforcement. I could be wrong but I don't think Madeline knew anything about Bonnie's background at that point. Did I miss some background about Bonnie's parents? I noticed they've joined this season and there's definitely something up with her mother. 

[gibasi]

18 minutes ago, love2lovebadtv said:

I noticed Bonnie clutching her neck as if she had been triggered and instinctively knew something was about to happen, but I didn't think that had anything to do with her parents. We didn't see her parents, not even in flashbacks, until the second season. We only heard that Abigail liked spending time with Bonnie's mother, but nothing about abuse. I thought Madeline lied to avoid scrutiny from potentially unsympathetic law enforcement. I could be wrong but I don't think Madeline knew anything about Bonnie's background at that point. Did I miss some background about Bonnie's parents? I noticed they've joined this season and there's definitely something up with her mother. 

I think a lot of assumptions are being made about the ladies and especially Bonnie. I don't remember anything in the series that has even suggested Bonnie has experienced abuse. It may come up now but I noticed some suggesting that Bonnie reacted the way she did with Perry because of her own history with abuse. None of which I remember in past episodes.

[Razzberry]

13 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

According to Madeline this week: "because he's an asshole."

She has said multiple time that he walked out on her, that he left her, etc. but I don't recall either Madeline or Nathan ever giving a specific reason.

Given his speech to Bonnie, I think Madeline answer is either correct and he's just an asshole, or she's hiding something big.  I'm leaning on asshole.

"You know, it fucked me up some, when my marriage to Madeline ended.  Divorce creates trauma.  You think something is gonna go on forever and it doesn't. Then you're on the other side of it, and you don't really trust the ground underneath your feet.  I've never lost sight of the fact that marriage is fragile.  That it can all go away."

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 hour ago, Razzberry said:

Given his speech to Bonnie, I think Madeline answer is either correct and he's just an asshole, or she's hiding something big.  I'm leaning on asshole.

"You know, it fucked me up some, when my marriage to Madeline ended.  Divorce creates trauma.  You think something is gonna go on forever and it doesn't. Then you're on the other side of it, and you don't really trust the ground underneath your feet.  I've never lost sight of the fact that marriage is fragile.  That it can all go away."

The fact that Nathan said this to Bonnie (not Maddie or anyone who was around when he was married to Maddie) makes me think that he was just trying to paint himself as the sympathetic victim.

Maddie has brought up the fact that he left her several times to his face and he has never denied it and even tried to minimize it by saying things like "Why are you always trying to start a fight?"

Maddie and Nathan are both flawed people and there are (at least) two sides to every story, but I have a pretty strong suspicion that Maddie's version of events is closer to the truth.

[txhorns79]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Maddie and Nathan are both flawed people and there are (at least) two sides to every story, but I have a pretty strong suspicion that Maddie's version of events is closer to the truth.

Eh, sometimes there aren't two sides.  Sometimes there's just one side and the other side is really just all the people who want to imagine it can't happen to them, so they convince themselves that there was something special about this situation that can't be repeated in their own lives.  

4 hours ago, love2lovebadtv said:

I noticed they've joined this season and there's definitely something up with her mother. 

I was struck by her mother's comment last episode asking what Bonnie had done this time to bring on her current mood.   

[aemom]

On 6/23/2019 at 11:29 PM, UGAmp said:

I’m extremely suspicious of Jane’s new boyfriend. I agree with @sashayshante that he wanted to meet Ziggy way too fast. Jane seemed to hesitate when he said it but now they’re surfing together? I’m not convinced he’s related to Perry but I don’t think he has good intentions. 

When boyfriend asked Jane if she was on the autism spectrum, he mentioned that he was. So I totally understand and see all the odd behavior he exibits. 

If that turns out to be a fake front for sinister behavior, that's one thing. But if they use the autism as an excuse to make him sinister, I will be very upset because that's not how autism works AT ALL!

[LuvMyShows]

On 6/26/2019 at 9:59 AM, Joimiaroxeu said:

I think Mary Louise is playing a long game to get those women accused of murdering Perry. Then she'll try to grab the three kids, starting with temporary custody while the women are perhaps in jail. Celeste and Jane don't have any other adult relatives nearby, do they? ML would say there's no point in putting the kids in foster care when their grandmother is right there to take care of them.

I guess this is possible but I just don't see that woman wanting to invest all her time, energy, and finances into raising three small boys alone, at her age.

On 6/24/2019 at 12:27 PM, walnutqueen said:

Mary Louise is in need of a Josh Mankiewitcz smirking raised eyebrow, or a Keith Morrison bony finger to the chin head tilt side-eye.

Love the Dateline references!

On 6/24/2019 at 9:31 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I didn't think anything we heard the teacher say was inappropriate for their age.

Mr. Perkins: Rebranding? I see. Well, you all want to know what I think? I think Charlotte didn't want Wilbur to get eaten. I don't think she wanted any pigs to be eaten, and we all know why, don't we?
Students: Sustainability.
Mr. Perkins: Exactly. Exactly. How many gallons of water does it take to make a single pound of sausage? 
Students: A thousand. 
Mr. Perkins: A thousand gallons. And how many showers does that add up to? 
Students: Over 50. 

The fact that all the students knew all the answers and gave the answers so singsong-y/mindlessly, means that they have had this discussion a million times.  And there's no way that the only thing discussed was the few items from this snippet.  I can easily see that even if each individual item discussed was age-appropriate, that the entirety could still be wildly age-inappropriate and overblown.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

I guess this is possible but I just don't see that woman wanting to invest all her time, energy, and finances into raising three small boys alone, at her age.

I think she would if it were financially beneficial for her to do so. All three of them are her son's heirs. Next she might go after Perry's estate, especially if Celeste and Jane are locked away in prison for his "murder." Also, she's just warped enough to try to use the boys to replace her dead sons.

[teddysmom]

On 6/24/2019 at 1:45 PM, txhorns79 said:

but I'd probably have to be under court order before I'd let her around my child. 

I wouldn't trust ML to not kidnap Ziggy. She is batshit crazy. 

[Umbelina]

Honestly, I don't see why Bonnie needed to have experience with abuse to do what she did.  I'm not saying she hasn't, or anything about book Bonnie, just saying I would have done the same thing.

Bonnie had momentum, she was running, and Perry was off balance because he was kicking Celeste, one good shove would have done it. 

I studied Judo in college, and unluckily for me, I was one of only 3 women in the class, the other two were dance majors and friends, so they tried to mostly spar together.  Most of the rest of the class was composed of the entire wrestling team and several guys from the football team.  Many were double my weight and towered over me, but I could easily take them down in sparring, my size actually worked for me because of center of gravity issues.  So I had no problem believing Bonnie was able to shove Perry off of Celeste.  Bonnie is also big on Yoga which shares quite a bit with Judo/Akido, and I wouldn't be surprised if she hasn't also attended classes like those, she's the type.

Anyway...

As I said, if I saw a man trying to kill his wife by beating her, surrounded by other women he was also punching?  My first step would be calling 911, my second would be screaming for help, my third would be using speed to try to shove him off of her. 

She wasn't being just beaten, he was trying to kill her.  This was in public, his "image" was already blown, he had nothing more to lose in his fury-violence-mind, this was to the death IMO.  She was leaving him, his rage overtook whatever reason he possessed.

[DesertCyclist]

Why have they made Jane's hair so oddly unflattering this season?  I'm not being critical of the actress; Jane's hair was better last season, and Shailene Woodley has great hair IRL.

[LoveLeigh]

Why was this season necessary? So far, every episode has been filler. What has even happened? Is there a plot? It meanders from one cut to the next like a scene study class. Plus it tries so hard to make bold statements about education and parenting. 

Oh and I validate the weak plot by the many posts here which are about Meryl's teeth and Shailene's hair. 

Edited June 28, 2019 by DakotaLavender

[Razzberry]

I'm really enjoying it, but I tend to focus on the acting rather than plot, which seems to involve Evil Grandma's threatening to stir shit up about her dentally similar son's death.  Gotta admit they've gone the extra mile with this - every time Meryl opens her mouth I chuckle and adore her character, in a love-to-hate way.

Based on Alex's childhood pic, the evil twins were also carefully cast.

[chenoa333]

On 6/25/2019 at 10:33 AM, FemmyV said:

but I can't imagine how Jane could afford to rent anywhere in CA, let alone a place like Carmel, and raise a kid on the kind of jobs she's been working unless there's some kind of trust fund that we don't hear about.

This^^^^. No offense to Bakersfield, Barstow etc. but those are 2 places in California that, realistically, Jane could afford to live.  And what is it that Madelyns husband does that makes the multi million dollars? 

Edited June 29, 2019 by chenoa333

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, chenoa333 said:

This^^^^. No offense to Bakersfield, Barstow etc. but those are 2 places in California that, realistically, Jane could afford to live.  And what is it that Madelyns husband does that makes the multi million dollars? 

He's in tech, remember he made the otter on the school website. 

I have a very rich friend that does this from home as well, for anything from hospitals to pharma to theatrical troops, not just web design, but data correlation and graphics movie work, game designs, etc.

Jane would be living in Seaside, there are somewhat affordable places there, especially house sharing.  I keep thinking they left out the part where Celeste told her the apt. lease was already paid for, so just use it.

Jane's family is in Santa Cruz, so they probably had their home there from long before real estate went nuts in California.

Meanwhile, there are "not rich" everyday people who live in or around Monterey, but I agree, not on the beach. 

Edited June 30, 2019 by Umbelina

[ChromaKelly]

It hasn't been a year since Perry's death, it's been maybe three months. The gala was at the end of the school year, and now it's the beginning of the new year. So, Perry died in May/June, and now it's September. I don't expect them to be over it. Bonnie especially is acting pretty realistically.