S08.E06: The Iron Throne

[ShellsandCheese]

1 minute ago, RoberTee said:

King Beyond the Wall? 

King of the only people who really matter, the Free Folk. I don't know, at least with the Free Folk they choose their King. And their King is more like a President or Prime Minister. None of this ruling houses and ruling families business. I'll just say that the ending of the show was very much pollyanna and really not consistent with what we'd come to expect after eight years of watching - at least not for me. A more realistic ending would have ended with the seven kingdoms being no more. Everyone is independent - and all the character arcs wouldn't have been wrapped in a tiny neat little bow either with the characters getting what they wanted or ending up dead. 

[TigerLynx]

Quote

So if Sansa is Queen of the North, what is Jon going to end up being called? King of the Actual North?

Jon Snow who knows nothing.

Edited May 23, 2019 by TigerLynx

[GodsBeloved]

22 minutes ago, CletusMusashi said:

So if Sansa is Queen of the North, what is Jon going to end up being called? King of the Actual North?

The Real North ... according to Tormund 🤣

[Bali]

39 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

I think it would have made more sense for the kingdoms to split apart again.  Since Sansa is Queen of the North, I expect the leaders and people in the other kingdoms might demand autonomy to.

I agree. I think that the kingdoms split apart, with Bran as Hand of the United Kingdoms Council. Bran can "use history so as to not repeat itself." Or whatever. But the Yara I've known wouldn't be all "OK the North can be free, but not us." All of the people at the dragon pit are smart enough to know the shortcomings of their individual kingdoms. But if they work together- they are amazingly powerful.

[staphdude]

13 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

The Bad:

Danys death. After all this, with her being one of the protagonists of the whole series, and then being set up as the final boss, she is taken out by a quick stab while kissing Jon, and...thats it? What a lame way to end such a great character who has been such a huge focus of the show. It actually reminded me of the death of Stannis, who was another really interesting and dynamic character who was built up for many seasons, and then just kind of out of nowhere crosses the moral event horizon and dies a pointless death, and its like they never existed at all. What a waste of time. 

To me her death makes perfect sense. Her power was in her relationships with those that could actually enforce her will. She was utterly alone with Jon and he clearly had the upper hand. 

What would have been more ridiculous was him fighting through Dothraki and unsullied in order to strike her down.

[TigerLynx]

2 minutes ago, staphdude said:

To me her death makes perfect sense. Her power was in her relationships with those that could actually enforce her will. She was utterly alone with Jon and he clearly had the upper hand. 

What would have been more ridiculous was him fighting through Dothraki and unsullied in order to strike her down.

Drogon not killing Jon was ridiculous.

Dany and Sansa should have bonded.  Jon should have been killed by the Night King because he was thinking about how he slept with his aunt instead of paying attention in battle.

Sansa becomes Queen of the North.  Dany kills Cersei, and flies off with Drogon.  The seven kingdoms become separate again.

Edited May 23, 2019 by TigerLynx

[Minneapple]

Quote

Too much about race and gender is injected into opinions about this show based on people's real world perceptions and agendas.  It's a fantasy show in a fantasy world.  It's also set in a medieval time period where things like equality and social justice are at the bottom of the priority list, if they are even on the priority list.  Bran didn't get the throne because he's a white guy.  The person who either sat on the throne herself or controlled it when her children sat on it for seven out of the eight seasons was a woman - Cersei.  One of the seven kingdoms is Dorne, which is the Westeros version of an Arabic culture.  The show itself was never about addressing race or gender issues, and it was never the responsibility of the show to do that.  Westeros didn't need to reflect our real world 21st century values, nor should it.  If people want that sort of thing, there are a lot of shows out there which cater to that.  

Sansa was raped.  It happens.  In a medieval world like Westeros, it would happen a lot and be tolerated and even acceptable in places.  Lots of shows depict rape and get lauded for it.  GoT does it and it's misogynistic.  Sansa said it was thanks to Ramsay Bolton and others that she is who she came to be.  It wasn't a thank you to Ramsay Bolton, there was no admiration when she said it.  She followed that statement by describing what she did to him in the end.  Was GoT saying that a woman has to be raped to become strong and a leader?  No.  Arya wasn't raped.  She turned into a deadly assassin.  Cersei didn't become Queen of the Seven Kingdoms by being raped.  Yara didn't command the Iron Fleet because she was a victim of abuse.  Sansa wasn't like them, though.  She was a wallflower who couldn't stand up for herself.  She had no backbone.  It took a severe trauma to change who she was.  It also seems to be forgotten that Ramsay Bolton did even worse to Theon, a male.  So what happened to Sansa wasn't about gender at all, it was about abuse at the hands of a sadist.  And both her and Theon's stories were about rising above what he did to them and becoming something better. 

So wait. It's a fantasy show in a fantasy world so we shouldn't apply real world ideals but it's okay that Sansa was raped because that's realistic? 

Lots of shows do not depict rape and get lauded for it. What the hell show gets lauded for showing rapes? Rape is a cheap trashy way to develop or change a woman's character in fiction. In the case of Sansa's rape, it was the last straw for many people. The show had added yet another gratuitous rape into a work of fiction that didn't need it. Moreover, they had removed the character who was raped in the books and just replaced her with Sansa, like women are all interchangeable. 

Maybe it wasn't the responsibility of the show to address race or gender issues, but it would have been so much better if the writers didn't seem so ignorant about those issues. 

[MJ Frog]

12 hours ago, GodsBeloved said:

Are we now supposed to completely re-assess the whole moral landscape of the show?

12 hours ago, GodsBeloved said:

With Dany, the point has been made, even on the show, that for those children who were crucified, Dany didn't get those she knew were guilty. Some or all of them may have ordered it but it was never established exactly who did. If I'm not mistaken, she crucified the en-slavers as punishment for what was done to the children, not for simply being en-slavers.

Then there is the guy she fed to the dragons. Again, if I'm not mistaken she herself said she didn't know if the guy was guilty yet she executed him anyway.

No need to reassess the moral landscape -- I was going to say exactly what @GodsBeloved said. There were plenty of things that Dany did where we were indeed supposed to cheer -- the burning of the Khals for one, where she actually had little choice anyway, and where she was completely badass. But I think the point that some people were trying to make is that those great moments may have colored our perception of, or caused us to overlook, moments like the ones mentioned above by GodsBeloved, which were questionable even within the context of the show -- we were actually meant to see them as less than great, and maybe a little scary.

All of which fascinates me, and if they had been able to explore that more and do a better job with it, we would have had a more satisfying and believable arc for Dany, instead of jumping from step 2 to step 5 in her character development. As it was, we got someone who was so sympathetic, whose story was so good (talk about having a great story!) that the writers had too much to overcome in the last two episodes to make it feel like anything but a cheat. It would have been a neat trick, the greatest twist since Ned's death, to have a character whom most of the audience really believed in turn bad in a way that not only made sense, but made us question how we saw her -- and our heroes in general -- in the first place. Our own need to believe in someone or something can sometimes get the better of us.

Instead we got what we got and the show is over.

ETA: I just realized that the first quote above is attributed to GodsBeloved, who was actually quoting another poster, Dame Sans Merci. Sorry for any confusion!

Edited May 24, 2019 by MJ Frog
I'm dumb.

[Snowball II]

7 hours ago, Butless said:

Yes; those hired help were the "brown" people. Why was that? 

The problem with race is larger than the decision to stay in a racist country or fuck off on a boat to an island.  I am wondering how many people are actually unaware that a common racial epithet to throw at black americans was that they 'get on a boat an go back to africa'? Because it beggars reality that everyone is so ignorant of it, and of how their fate mirrors these words.

Thank you for explaining this.  I didn't see it that way, but you have given me a lot to think about.

[Law Mom]

13 hours ago, magpye29 said:

 Game of Thrones ending:  Stark Raven Mad

We have a winner!

[CletusMusashi]

Cersei must be so pissed off. Not because Dany killed her. She kind of saw that one coming. But Cersei spent all those years trying to sculpt herself into the perfect Disney villainess, and then gets so upstaged at it that she just fades into the background like more rubble.

It's not that I don't see the Nazi metaphors at Dany's victory gathering. Stevie Wonder can see those Nazi metaphors! It's that, even more than that, I saw the White Witch of Narnia, enhanced with a bit of Maleficent. Poor Cersei never had a chance to out-style someone with dragon wings flapping perfectly behind their back, did she?

I liked Cersei as a villain. More so than Danaerys, actually, because Cersei had that smirking little mean streak that made randomish but vindictive acts of cruelty believable for her character. Cersei using wildfire to blow up the populace rather than let Dany rule them? I would have bought that in a heartbeat.

She deserved a better death. Preferably by falling, as is traditional in her chosen villainy genre, rather than just having other things fall on her. Ideally she could have hung on for a while, begging Jaime to save her. Finally, with one last "Thing things I do for love..." he could reach down and offer her a hand up...

forgetting how easily his hand comes off. Oops.

Edited May 23, 2019 by CletusMusashi

[Zuleikha]

With Dany, the point has been made, even on the show, that for those children who were crucified, Dany didn't get those she knew were guilty. Some or all of them may have ordered it but it was never established exactly who did. If I'm not mistaken, she crucified the en-slavers as punishment for what was done to the children, not for simply being en-slavers.

Yes, that was not one of Dany's most shining moments. But I do think an element of her apathy as to the guilt was the fact that they were enslavers. They were karmically guilty, even if not being guilty of the specific crime she was punishing them for, and their execution was intended to prevent further abuse of innocents.

That's why, to me, that action doesn't justify the specific action the show writers made Dany take in The Bells, although it would have justified other villain-turn actions. 

Are we now supposed to completely re-assess the whole moral landscape of the show?

What's disappointing to me is that we're not supposed to, but I think we really should. The reasons Dany had for wanting to break the wheel were legitimate, moral reasons. And when push comes to shove, we really don't know what Dany envisioned for the future of the Seven Kingdoms when she gave her big speech. We know how it was visually coded by the writers. But is Tyrion right to think that it means she's not done with war? She came to sit on the Iron Throne and rule the Seven Kingdoms after having already conquered places in Essos. So when she speaks of liberation, who says she meant massacres? Maybe she literally meant "liberation"--that she and her armies would enforce policies to improve equality and the lot of the small folk in Westeros.

After all, in her speech to Jon, all she talks about is the difficulty of envisioning a better world. Sure, she says she has the right to choose what's good when others don't, but this is a world of monarchical rules. That's the literal truth. Robert Baratheon had that power when he was king. Ned Stark had that power in the North. Khal Drogo had that power over his Dothraki. Yara has it over her Ironborn when she forbids reaving and raping. So yes, Dany has the power to choose good as Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. And based on what we've seen of her rule, she may struggle with designing effective policy, but she really truly does try to design a more just, more egalitarian world.

So is Tyrion really acting on behalf of the small folk and general people of Westeros. Or is he acting on his own behalf? To save his skin, privileged position, and comfort zone? All he accomplishes at the very end is his best to restore the status quo for himself and the other highborns of Westeros. The show wants us to view this as good, but is it really? 

[terrymct]

20 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Not anymore. The Lannister army sacked Highgarden and took all their gold and wealth. I suppose the Reach could still be technically, potentially wealthy in terms of agriculture but doesn't seem like Bronn got much besides a castle and a title.

Agriculture will bring in gold fairly quickly.  There's no indication of widespread ruin in the Reach, beyond the area of the battle.  

[Bali]

WINTER IS COMING! Oh wait, it was just a flurry. Move along people, Tyrion's got some more walking to do.

[catrice2]

15 hours ago, RealReality said:

I just want to say that I'm not sure where I fall on the issue of race.  But I want to thank those posters who brought it up because I truly had never thought about it, and it's an interesting dynamic with so many facets and differing points of view. 

I wonder if they talked about lando calrizzian this much back in the day?!?!!

 I can tell you where I fall in relation to this show . I would have preferred that they left them out as opposed to a ddressing it in a brief scene that made no sense or introducing characters  stuck in the same stereotypical roles. I do not need POC on a show in order to enjoy it..they can be the villain and not get a happy ending..I just need them to have great writing and not be there to just prop others. Again in the end Greyworm and Missandei were reduced to the angry black stereotypes ..but that is not my biggest complaint. None of the actions of most characters made sense or had gravity. Iam not mad because I did not get the ending I wanted..I am mad because the season was terrible and I would say that if either of those two were in power at the end and if they had sailed for Naath. Bad season a nd questionable writing. They did not have POC in Lord of the Rings or the c.s. lewis world either but they did not shoe them in to ignore or dumb them down either. In fantasy you can make it what you want. This show existed due to shock value more than anything

[CletusMusashi]

I don't think Missendai was reduced to an angry black woman. I think she was angry for a damned good reason. I don't have a problem with her "Dracarys" advice, either. How was she supposed to know that Dany was going to go completely whackadoodles. I mean, in the past, "Dracarys" usually just meant "Kill that guy," or "Kill those guys." it never used to mean "Circle around and massacre all the random peasants you possibly can." That's on Danaerys 2.0, not Missendai.

I'm okay with Grey Worm losing his temper as well. That's a actually a sign of his growth as a human character, something that he wouldn't have been able to do without Dany and Missendai. The other Unsullied, granted, don't get much character development onscreen, but do we really need thousands more characters? I assume they've all got their own personal stuff going on too.

The Dothraki have been treated poorly in recent seasons. The women are separated from the men and presumably absorbed into Daario's "civilized" society. The men are drafted and used as front-line cannon fodder, with Ser Friendzone as the only character in their ranks permitted a name and personality. Hell, most of them don't even get bows and arrows. And the message seems to be that it's okay to just use them as expendable dumb muscle because they're a bunch of brutes who love fighting. Even if it appears to be true, it still sounds awfully bad. However, are the whitey barbarians of Westeros treated any better by the show? Name one living wildling besides Tormund the big jolly comedy relief drunk. How are the Hill People doing? Seen Shagga, son of Dolf lately? Of course not. 

I think they certainly had to include people of color. It makes the world feel both bigger and more realistic to have different ethnic groups spread throughout distant lands. Although I can't for the life of me figure out what the significance of Salladhor Saan  appearing for two scenes in the early seasons was.

The ending of the Unsullied story is actually growing on me a little bit. The Lords actually tried to do right by them and give them a castle and some land. Maybe they could have haggled for more if they wanted to, but they didn't. The Unsullied were like "Yeah, um, we're not looking to stay here and live your way. We've got our own future to go do." They know nothing about farming or mining or any of that, and they would never fit in with their neighbors. Not only because of appearance or job training, but because of things like language and religion and life experience. They could just stay professional soldiers and rule over the locals who did all the actual work, but that's not their idea of breaking the wheel. It's not even like they have to settle down somewhere to raise their kids, because they won't have any. So while I certainly do see how that particular plot resolution can appear to have some racist implications, I'm actually gonna vote "no" on the question. 

Ever see a cloud that looked like a hippo? I have. Sometimes things just end up looking like other things. However, that said, the writing was crude enough that I had to think about this for quite a while to decide which side my opinion fell on. So I guess the moral is that when you're writing fiction, and have almost complete control over what something looks like, it's probably not a great idea to accidentally let your cloud look too much like a hippo.

Edited May 25, 2019 by CletusMusashi

[tiredofwork]

So does anybody know what was supposed to happen with Baristan Selmy and Daarhio Naharis back in Mereen or wherever they were left in charge?  They just left them out of the closure equation?

[Umbelina]

Well, not only that, but the whole Mellisandae scene was completely ridiculous, and made everyone on screen look like fools.

One of these things would have happened:

1.  Cersei keeps Melly alive as a personal shield from death by dragon. 

2.  Dani has Drogon taken out everyone on that platform immediately.  War is over.

3.  Cersei kills everyone on Dany's side immediately, since she also has the Scorpions and knows how very easy it was to kill the other dragon with Scorpions aimed from a rocking and rolling SHIP, so the ones she had mounted on stationary platforms should have no problem at all should Dany sick Drogon on them.  War is over.

[QuantumMechanic]

31 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Well, not only that, but the whole Mellisandae scene was completely ridiculous, and made everyone on screen look like fools.

One of these things would have happened:

1.  Cersei keeps Melly alive as a personal shield from death by dragon. 

2.  Dani has Drogon taken out everyone on that platform immediately.  War is over.

3.  Cersei kills everyone on Dany's side immediately, since she also has the Scorpions and knows how very easy it was to kill the other dragon with Scorpions aimed from a rocking and rolling SHIP, so the ones she had mounted on stationary platforms should have no problem at all should Dany sick Drogon on them.  War is over.

My first comment to people after that episode ended was that Cersei was incredibly stupid for not killing Drogon, Dany, Tyrion, and anyone else she could kill after them, and that Dany & her group were even more incredibly stupid for putting themselves in a position where they would have been easily killed if Cersei wasn't being stupid.

[Zuleikha]

I think they certainly had to include people of color. It makes the world feel both bigger and more realistic to have different ethnic groups spread throughout distant lands.

I agree with that.

However, I do think they could have given the POC characters more importance and better ends. There was really no need to kill Missandei. Stakes were high enough at that point, and it's not like it made the particular character turn for Dany make more sense. Grey Worm leaving at the end would have read very differently if he were leaving with Missandei for their happy ending. 

Also, Ellaria shouldn't have been left off screen in the dungeon with no impact on the story. She probably should have been freed and there should have been some narrative impact in terms of Dorne. I know the Dorne story didn't end up super popular, but Ellaria ruled a Westeros kingdom and allied it with Daenerys. The fact that Cersei cruelly imprisoned her could have mattered to Dorne and Yara.

And why wasn't Daario a PoC character? 

[CletusMusashi]

16 minutes ago, Zuleikha said:

And why wasn't Daario a PoC character? 

Well, to be fair, he'd probably have been recast again by now anyway. So if it makes you feel any better, just assume that Daario is now played by... oh, I don't know. Let's say Tracy Morgan.

[CletusMusashi]

Actually, this discussion of geographic variation of human phenotypes makes realize something. Originally, I interpreted Westeros as Europe and Essos as Asia, but I no longer believe that to be true. Essos is closer to the entire Eurasian continent. Westeros is America, a vast land to the west where the original inhabitants were displaced by immigrants from the lighter-skinned populations of Essos. Now, there's no reason to assume there isn't yet another continent to the west of Westeros, but it's also possible that what's west of Westeros isn't Arya discovering a new world, but rather Arya reaching eastern Essos and proving that the world is round. You know, assuming she knows anything about sailing. Which she doesn't. I really hope they gave her a good crew.

[raven]

The Unsullied left Westeros for Naath in-show, which is up for discussion.  Posts have been removed which talk about something specific to Naath that is a fact in the books but NOT on the show, so should not be discussed in this topic.  If you are uncertain about this, PM @Athena or @raven for clarification.

[lmsweb]

2 hours ago, tiredofwork said:

So does anybody know what was supposed to happen with Baristan Selmy and Daarhio Naharis back in Mereen or wherever they were left in charge?  They just left them out of the closure equation?

Erm....Selmy has been dead since season 5.

[Nashville]

On 5/21/2019 at 8:31 PM, MrsR said:

But those weird long winters/seasons are a thing of the past. Now that the NK is gone balance is returning. The North will lose that advantage.

Maybe - or maybe they’re in the midst of Indian summer. 😉 That’s one of the myriad questions posed but never clearly addressed by the series:

• Has the Night King been responsible for creating the horribly long cold winters of the old folks’ tales?  
• Or has he simply taken advantage of the region’s natural climatic shifts to mount his offensives against the Wall and the people it protects?  

There have been subtle indications for both options throughout the course of the series, but no incontrovertible evidence of either.

[Umbelina]

We saw lakes freeze and air get colder when the WW came, so I always thought it was the NK and WW that brought the super long winters...

Now?  I have no idea.

[JoeyCrown]

GreyWorm would have killed the shit out of Jon, not imprison him.

[Nashville]

But the winters have continued to come and go through many multi-year seasonal cycles - at the beginning of the series it is commented that the extraordinary length of the current summer (9 years) has people concerned a winter of equivalent harshness may follow - while the WWs have not made an appearance in so long, they have faded for many Westerosi to the level of apocryphal folk legend.  So not nearly every winter is accompanied by a WW assault.

[RealReality]

12 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

Drogon not killing Jon was ridiculous.

Dany and Sansa should have bonded.  Jon should have been killed by the Night King because he was thinking about how he slept with his aunt instead of paying attention in battle.

Sansa becomes Queen of the North.  Dany kills Cersei, and flies off with Drogon.  The seven kingdoms become separate again.

To me, drogons actions were so poignant that they made sense, though they were unexpected.

It was the one thing that led me to believe that dragons were smarter than...a dog (or at least my dog who was not the sharpest crayon).

I think drogon didn't kill jon because he was family.  Like Dany was mother of dragons, Jon was at least a sibling of dragons and as a targeryan he has a deep familial and natural connection with the dragons, which is why he was the only other person able to ride one.

I can't remember how the dragons responded to Tyrion, but I'm not sure he would be been allowed to ride and guide a dragon.

So beyond realizing that this whole mess was caused by THAT DAMN CHAIR he felt that connection with Jon and maybe he did or maybe he didn't pick up on the fact that Jon loved Dany so the only reason he killed her was because of THAT DAMN CHAIR

I kinda wish that the show had given us more insight into drogons personality and level of discernment and intelligence because the whole thing came out of nowhere.  Besides Tyrion saying dragons were smart, we've only seen them be a weapon or a fancy Uber. 

36 minutes ago, JoeyCrown said:

GreyWorm would have killed the shit out of Jon, not imprison him.

I tend to agree though I'm on the fence.  GW has always followed a leader.  He WANTED to go full blood lust on the soliders in kings landing, but he waited until his leader....Dany....let him know she wanted that too.  When he was in the streets slicing throats, even though he probably wanted to do it, he made it clear that he was doing so under danys order.

So, while he has this rightful anger and rage inside, he can hold it back until a leader gives him permission to unleash...and this makes sense if you have been raised a warrior who has to follow someone who many levels of people.  

At the same time though, it would be in line with any solider to kill someone who had attacked/killed their leader.  

So..I don't know.  

[lmsweb]

This is actually one of my favourite scenes. Tyrion had never met the dragons before. Yet it seems they understand enough of what he's saying to not eat him.
 

[MJ Frog]

Hey, speaking of winter and the Night King, if the dead cannot pass through the Wall, then what was the hurry to fight the White Walkers in the first place? In fact, why fight them at all? Maybe the Maester talking to Sam at the Citadel was right: the Wall had held for eight thousand years, and winter always comes to an end. Better left alone? This was never explained to my satisfaction.

[MrWhyt]

21 minutes ago, MJ Frog said:

Hey, speaking of winter and the Night King, if the dead cannot pass through the Wall, then what was the hurry to fight the White Walkers in the first place? In fact, why fight them at all? Maybe the Maester talking to Sam at the Citadel was right: the Wall had held for eight thousand years, and winter always comes to an end. Better left alone? This was never explained to my satisfaction.

they can walk around the wall once the water freezes over

[Snowball II]

27 minutes ago, MJ Frog said:

Hey, speaking of winter and the Night King, if the dead cannot pass through the Wall, then what was the hurry to fight the White Walkers in the first place? In fact, why fight them at all? Maybe the Maester talking to Sam at the Citadel was right: the Wall had held for eight thousand years, and winter always comes to an end. Better left alone? This was never explained to my satisfaction.

Let this be a lesson to always listen to Jim Broadbent.  He knows what's up.

Edited May 24, 2019 by Fiver

[MJ Frog]

10 minutes ago, Fiver said:

Let this be a lesson to always listen to Jim Broadbent.  He knows what's up.

They had such a deep bench on this show: Jim Broadbent, Jonathan Pryce, Max von Sydow (!), Diana Rigg (!).

19 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

they can walk around the wall once the water freezes over

I wonder they didn't do that at Hardhome, though, or shortly after? Or why hadn't they done that in years past?

[VCRTracking]

I'm going to miss these:

[Drogo]

8 hours ago, lmsweb said:

This is actually one of my favourite scenes. Tyrion had never met the dragons before. Yet it seems they understand enough of what he's saying to not eat him.
 

"Dragons are intelligent. More intelligent than men, according to some maesters. They have affection for their friends and fury for their enemies."

*Bolded is the takeaway from the entire series.

[Bali]

12 hours ago, CletusMusashi said:

Actually, this discussion of geographic variation of human phenotypes makes realize something. Originally, I interpreted Westeros as Europe and Essos as Asia, but I no longer believe that to be true. Essos is closer to the entire Eurasian continent. Westeros is America, a vast land to the west where the original inhabitants were displaced by immigrants from the lighter-skinned populations of Essos. Now, there's no reason to assume there isn't yet another continent to the west of Westeros, but it's also possible that what's west of Westeros isn't Arya discovering a new world, but rather Arya reaching eastern Essos and proving that the world is round. You know, assuming she knows anything about sailing. Which she doesn't. I really hope they gave her a good crew.

They didn't have to give her a good crew. She can just remind everyone that they ALL owe her and people will flood to sail with her. OR- She'll just say, "Seriously, if you sail away with me, I can spare you all of the Bran the Broken crap that the Imp is spewing." And they all sail with her anyway.

10 hours ago, Nashville said:

Maybe - or maybe they’re in the midst of Indian summer. 😉 That’s one of the myriad questions posed but never clearly addressed by the series:

• Has the Night King been responsible for creating the horribly long cold winters of the old folks’ tales?  
• Or has he simply taken advantage of the region’s natural climatic shifts to mount his offensives against the Wall and the people it protects?  

There have been subtle indications for both options throughout the course of the series, but no incontrovertible evidence of either.

In order to answer that, the showrunners would have to know the answers. And I really don't think they are deep enough to ask the question.

[Uncle JUICE]

So I wasn't crazy when I watched the end at KL and thought "So, winter is over? Do they no longer have winters now that the Night King is dead? Was it like a month? How much time has passed for them to be so jocular at the small council, when really that first couple of meetings would be extremely long, very heavy, and SHOULD INVOLVE THE NEW KING in some way other than 'I'm just going to pop my head it, see how things are going, you guys don't need me, right?"
 

WHY THE HELL IS BRAN KING.  

Edited May 24, 2019 by Uncle JUICE

[Bannon]

The writers never solved a fundamental writing issue with this created world; what are the parameters of dragons' powers, and how do we portray them without making the humans which interact with dragons either entirely predictable, or entirely idiotic? Because this problem was never solved, by the time the story becomes entirely focused on Westeros, we end up with a series of increasingly ridiculous instances of character devolution, because the writers understandably want to maintain some sense of drama and unpredictability. 

In season 7, it was initially easier to handwave away the issue of Tyrion, Varys, and Dany becoming idiots, because it was new, at least until "Beyond the Wall", which was the 1st indisputable proof that these writers were just incredibly lazy, so we get Gendry running like the 6 Million Dollar Man, and ravens which fly at the speed of a 737. Even then, I maintained at least some optimism that some care would be given to basic storytelling in the final season. Whatever optimism I had, and it was never huge, was obviously misplaced.

This season started off o.k., even if it wasn't great, and upon rewatch of episode 3's great battle, I was able to look past some issues, and enjoy some things which were done pretty well. Episode 4 began decently, even quite well, dealing with the emotiomal trauma left in the wake of a horrific battle. As soon as the story turned south again, however, the fact that these writers never did the hard work at the beginning (with whatever blame which should be attributed to Martin factored) pretty much made the last 3.5 to 4 hours of crap inevitable, until we get to the last segment of episode 6, post Dany, which features dialogue no better than the fertilizer shoveled out by Disney Channel kid shows.

The shame of it is that it could have been great, in the hands of writers with talent and ambition. So much potentially interesting stuff was just left on the shelf, because the writers simply reduced their effort to whatever would provide the CGI visuals. Ugh, what a missed opportunity.

Edited May 24, 2019 by Bannon
typo

[MarySNJ]

14 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

Also, Ellaria shouldn't have been left off screen in the dungeon with no impact on the story. She probably should have been freed and there should have been some narrative impact in terms of Dorne. I know the Dorne story didn't end up super popular, but Ellaria ruled a Westeros kingdom and allied it with Daenerys. The fact that Cersei cruelly imprisoned her could have mattered to Dorne. 

I don’t know. The fact that Ellaria murdered the ruling prince of Dorne, his heir and a princess of the seven kingdoms to get revenge on the Lannisters for Oberon’s death (which HE could have avoided if he hadn’t offered to be Tyrion’s champion and flitted around when he had an opportunity to take the Mountain out) probably sealed her fate as far as Dorne was concerned, regardless of her alliance with Daenerys.

[RealReality]

1 hour ago, Uncle JUICE said:

So I wasn't crazy when I watched the end at KL and thought "So, winter is over? Do they no longer have winters now that the Night King is dead? Was it like a month? How much time has passed for them to be so jocular at the small council, when really that first couple of meetings would be extremely long, very heavy, and SHOULD INVOLVE THE NEW KING in some way other than 'I'm just going to pop my head it, see how things are going, you guys don't need me, right?"
 

WHY THE HELL IS BRAN KING.  

Um, because "stories"...duh 🤣

[Uncle JUICE]

Now it's really bothering me. Bran stops by, who's perfectly comfortable going by Bran the Broken now and not being even MORE of an insufferable douche and saying "BUt I'm not Bran anymore...I'm the three eyed raven", asks a couple of questions. then Podrick wheels him out again. WHAT IS HE GOING TO DO? Like what the fuck is so pressing? You need to reforge the six kingdoms, no? I wish:

• Bran had said "By the way, I've been three eved ravening all other the place, and I still can't figure out who those other people there at the Dragonpit."
• Bran left the room and said "How about a small council post for the New Prince of Dorne?" as a joke that everyone in the room was in on, like they'd been saying it for weeks with just as much bewilderment as us. "Whose son is he again?" asks Davos. "He's Prince Whoknows, of the great Dornish House Whogivesashit. his family held the famous castle Plot Hole Patch," answers Brienne. 
• And Bran left the room and someone said "Seriously, Tyrion, why did you think he'd be a good king, though? You said some shit about stories, but honestly, no one even wants to talk to him. I'm glad he doesn't mess with these meetings, but do you think he might be able to use some of those powers in any practical way to help us? You're the hand, you can't get out of meetings with him."
• ETA someone please make a Sweetrobin joke at that council. Are we all going to pretend that dude was not sucking on his mom's tit like less than a year ago? We're all just going to ignore that he grew into the star of the Balkie Bartocomus origin story I'm working on, "Youpos and Meepos: Nations at Odds?"

Edited May 24, 2019 by Uncle JUICE

[Bannon]

8 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Now it's really bothering me. Bran stops by, who's perfectly comfortable going by Bran the Broken now and not being even MORE of an insufferable douche and saying "BUt I'm not Bran anymore...I'm the three eyed raven", asks a couple of questions. then Podrick wheels him out again. WHAT IS HE GOING TO DO? Like what the fuck is so pressing? You need to reforge the six kingdoms, no? I wish:

• Bran had said "By the way, I've been three eved ravening all other the place, and I still can't figure out who those other people there at the Dragonpit."
• Bran left the room and said "How about a small council post for the New Prince of Dorne?" as a joke that everyone in the room was in on, like they'd been saying it for weeks with just as much bewilderment as us. "Whose son is he again?" asks Davos. "He's Prince Whoknows, of the great Dornish House Whogivesashit. his family held the famous castle Plot Hole Patch," answers Brienne. 
• And Bran left the room and someone said "Seriously, Tyrion, why did you think he'd be a good king, though? You said some shit about stories, but honestly, no one even wants to talk to him. I'm glad he doesn't mess with these meetings, but do you think he might be able to use some of those powers in any practical way to help us? You're the hand, you can't get out of meetings with him."

I was dumb enough, as recently as 7 weeks ago, to be optimistic enough that they were going to do something interesting with Bran, perhaps as a quasi-religious figure who is a unifying force among all the people with differing Faiths in this world we have been watching for about a decade.

Nope, instead we get some Disney Channel Show expository dialogue, which makes him King with The Awesomely Crappy Alliterative Title. Then he gets wheeled off, after he announces, to people who have witnessed rivers of blood for months, due to enemies mounting one successful sneak attack after another, "Hey, just remember, I can determine the exact location of anything or anyone I desire, merely by rolling my eyes back in my head, and all the slaughter of innocents you dolts have witnessed is something I engineered at worst, or made little attempt to prevent at best, so I would end up ruling you all! Have a nice f*ckin' day, and don't forget to tip your bartenders and wait staff!".

[Uncle JUICE]

3 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Nope, instead we get some Disney Channel Show expository dialogue, which makes him King with The Awesomely Crappy Alliterative Title. Then he gets wheeled off, after he announces, to people who have witnessed rivers of blood for months, due to enemies mounting one successful sneak attack after another, "Hey, just remember, I can determine the exact location of anything or anyone I desire, merely by rolling my eyes back in my head, and all the slaughter of innocents you dolts have witnessed is something I engineered at worst, or made little attempt to prevent at best, so I would end up ruling you all! Have a nice f*ckin' day, and don't forget to tip your bartenders and wait staff!".

You mean like "Why do you think I came all this way?" What a fuckface. Right there someone should have been like whoa whoa whoa, HOW are you better than any of these other candidates? You deliberately took NO ACTION to prevent any of this? Do you realize how many children are dead? Why do you think I came all this way. NOW you want to try to be a smart ass?

Do you think the Bran issue is sort of an extension of the dragons issue you pointed out a couple posts ago? They define his powers even more nebulously than those of the dragons, the limits even more than that, and as a result none of his inclusion in the battles or the politics make any sense. I wish he DID move into a tree. 

While we're at it, what was the point of Jon being resurrected?

[terrymct]

1 hour ago, Uncle JUICE said:

WHY THE HELL IS BRAN KING.  

Thinking on it, Bran would have been a great Master of Whispers.  If the Hand has a question about what's going on in, say, Dorne, Bran could just roll his head back into his eyes and take a little look around to see then report.  No waiting for information to come to KL via boat, horseback, or raven.   🙂

[Bannon]

8 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

You mean like "Why do you think I came all this way?" What a fuckface. Right there someone should have been like whoa whoa whoa, HOW are you better than any of these other candidates? You deliberately took NO ACTION to prevent any of this? Do you realize how many children are dead? Why do you think I came all this way. NOW you want to try to be a smart ass?

Do you think the Bran issue is sort of an extension of the dragons issue you pointed out a couple posts ago? They define his powers even more nebulously than those of the dragons, the limits even more than that, and as a result none of his inclusion in the battles or the politics make any sense. I wish he DID move into a tree. 

While we're at it, what was the point of Jon being resurrected?

Yeah, that last scene, where Bran drives home the fact that he could have prevented Cersei, via Euron, successfully mounting an attack on Dany's fleet sailing south, and then Bran baldly states that this was the outcome he sought all along, means that Bran is essentially Stalin, with unsurpassed intelligence gathering abilities. Before he's done, he'll likely be denouncing the hoarders, wreckers, and Kulaks, and starving the population of Westeros into submission. Jon/Trotsky, in exile, will get an ice axe driven into his skull, and won't get ressurrected this time. 

[Uncle JUICE]

Why did Bran not warg into ANYTHING BUT RAVENS after Hodor? It's another narrative beat that could have been interesting to explore: did he stop doing it because he felt guilty for what happened to Willas (becoming hodor) and Hodor (getting killed)?

[Bannon]

40 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Why did Bran not warg into ANYTHING BUT RAVENS after Hodor? It's another narrative beat that could have been interesting to explore: did he stop doing it because he felt guilty for what happened to Willas (becoming hodor) and Hodor (getting killed)?

It really is as if these guys never sat down with Martin at the outset, to work out how all these supernatural or incredible powers would fit in with human behavior in a manner which would allow for a story with human character development which was compelling, and not a disjointed mess. 

When you make George Lucas look like, by comparison, a master of psychological realism akin to Dostoyevsky, you really need to try harder.

[Uncle JUICE]

I now love "the new Prince of Dorne" as a punchline for all KL parents whose kids deny doing something that the CLEARLY did. "Who broke this goblet?" says angry Jimwell, as his children shrug and say "We don't know" obstinately. "Well, I guess the new prince of DORNE stopped by again, after clogging the privvy LAST week, and knowcking over my entire sword stand in the garage on Maidensday" grumble grumble grumble. 

5 minutes ago, Bannon said:

It really is as if these guys never sat down with Martin at the outset, to work out how all these supernatural or incredible powers would fit in with human behavior in a manner which would allow for a story with human character development which was compelling, and not a disjointed mess. 

When you make George Lucas look like, by comparison, a master of psychological realism akin to Dostoyevsky, you really need to try harder.

Or they lost like two thirds of the notes they took and were too embarassed to email him again. 

[RealReality]

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

I was dumb enough, as recently as 7 weeks ago, to be optimistic enough that they were going to do something interesting with Bran, perhaps as a quasi-religious figure who is a unifying force among all the people with differing Faiths in this world we have been watching for about a decade.

Nope, instead we get some Disney Channel Show expository dialogue, which makes him King with The Awesomely Crappy Alliterative Title. Then he gets wheeled off, after he announces, to people who have witnessed rivers of blood for months, due to enemies mounting one successful sneak attack after another, "Hey, just remember, I can determine the exact location of anything or anyone I desire, merely by rolling my eyes back in my head, and all the slaughter of innocents you dolts have witnessed is something I engineered at worst, or made little attempt to prevent at best, so I would end up ruling you all! Have a nice f*ckin' day, and don't forget to tip your bartenders and wait staff!".

Wow, that would have been a really interesting path for bran.  I didn't really think there was an ending for bran that would have interested me and made sense, but your idea would have done both.

Good on you!

2 hours ago, terrymct said:

Thinking on it, Bran would have been a great Master of Whispers.  If the Hand has a question about what's going on in, say, Dorne, Bran could just roll his head back into his eyes and take a little look around to see then report.  No waiting for information to come to KL via boat, horseback, or raven.   🙂

He probably had pod roll him back to his room so he could catch up on all the town gossip about his coronation.🤣