S08.E05: The Bells

[nodorothyparker]

1 hour ago, benteen said:

Here's a quote from an article by Evan Romano at Men's Health that brings up another great point about Jaime's fate...

https://www.menshealth.com/entertainment/a27452322/jaime-lannister-death-game-of-thrones/

Thank you for sharing this article.  

It's getting at a lot of where my sticking points are too.  Had this ending been written back in season 2 or early 3 pre hand chop, I very easily would have bought it.  Even after cooling his heels for a good long while in a prison cell, that Jaime is barely aware that the world exists outside of Cersei and the Lannister brand.  But it asks us to ignore everything we saw, in some cases, in the same damn episode since then.

[RobertDeSneero]

2 hours ago, ulkis said:

That's a very good point. I guess it could be fanwanked that Tyrion figured he had a better chance surviving that way, but they still should have at least had Tyrion say something like, "dammit Jaime you fucking idiot."

I have a different theory.  I believe Dany was discussing plans to attack the people directly because she saw them as enemies and not hostages and Tyrion saw Jaime as his best chance to get Cersei to surrender before Dany could do that.  Then, Dany did it anyways despite the bells ringing.

[sistermagpie]

12 minutes ago, RobertDeSneero said:

I have a different theory.  I believe Dany was discussing plans to attack the people directly because she saw them as enemies and not hostages and Tyrion saw Jaime as his best chance to get Cersei to surrender before Dany could do that.  Then, Dany did it anyways despite the bells ringing.

Yeah, I thought that was explicit. Tyrion above all wanted the bells to ring because he asked Dany not to attack if they did. But he wanted to do everything he could to make sure Cersei surrendered and Jaime was that best chance.

[RobertDeSneero]

16 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, I thought that was explicit. Tyrion above all wanted the bells to ring because he asked Dany not to attack if they did. But he wanted to do everything he could to make sure Cersei surrendered and Jaime was that best chance.

I think a lot of viewers didn't get that because they seem to think Dany would never attack innocents when she was already planning on it in the show.   It was edited in a way so that people who thought of her as the good savior of Westeros were supposed to miss it and be shocked by her actions.

[AuntieMame]

13 minutes ago, RobertDeSneero said:

I think a lot of viewers didn't get that because they seem to think Dany would never attack innocents when she was already planning on it in the show.   It was edited in a way so that people who thought of her as the good savior of Westeros were supposed to miss it and be shocked by her actions.

Just to be clear, I've never thought of Dany as a savior and I never thought she would sit the Iron Throne, too easy in the trope bending Martin was trying. The business woman in me hated how she cheated to acquire the Unsullied, even if she was freeing slaves in theory. Me, I wonder just how free the Unsullied can really be. 

i would have no problem reading or watching the making of a tyrant, but the characterization and motivations have been sexist and inconsistent. I'm not bothered that Dany is bad. I'm bothered at the reasons given.

Edited May 14, 2019 by AuntieMame

[WearyTraveler]

52 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, I thought that was explicit. Tyrion above all wanted the bells to ring because he asked Dany not to attack if they did. But he wanted to do everything he could to make sure Cersei surrendered and Jaime was that best chance.

If all Tyrion wanted was for Jamie to convince Cersei to surrender, why did he provide them with a boat to escape?

[RobertDeSneero]

12 minutes ago, AuntieMame said:

i would have no problem reading or watching the making of a tyrant, but the characterization and motivations have been sexist and inconsistent. I'm not bothered that Dany is bad. I'm bothered at the reasons given.

I don't think Dany is bad.  I just don't think she is better than anyone else playing the game.  She's not as bad as Cersei, certainly not as bad as Joffrey.   She's not better than Sansa.  She's not better than Stan is Baratheon or Olenna Tyrell or Doran Martell.  

One point of the show is blasting apart the trope that defeating an existential threat such as the Night King is a signifier of moral superiority.

Just now, WearyTraveler said:

If all Tyrion wanted was for Jamie to convince Cersei to surrender, why did he provide them with a boat to escape?

She's not going to surrender if it just means being taken prisoner and executed.  Tyrion believed that the key to getting her to give up was to provide a way for her to save her baby.

[ulkis]

2 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

If all Tyrion wanted was for Jamie to convince Cersei to surrender, why did he provide them with a boat to escape?

I suppose as extra incentive to get Jaime to get Cersei to surrender.

Although I said this elsewhere I don't know why either of them didn't think Cersei maybe would just have had Jaime shot on sight.

[nodorothyparker]

Since I'm going to have to squint real hard and fanwank the crap out of it for any of this to make sense anyway, I would guess that Tyrion is at least clear-eyed enough in that moment to realize that if Jaime is this willing to piss his life away he isn't going to do it just to talk Cersei into surrendering to be taken prisoner and almost surely executed.  Giving them a viable escape option gives them incentive.  As hellbent as Tyrion has been throughout this entire war on not seeing Cersei as too far gone to reason with despite all evidence to the contrary, he probably doesn't want to have to watch her be executed either if there's another option.

[screamin]

4 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Since I'm going to have to squint real hard and fanwank the crap out of it for any of this to make sense anyway, I would guess that Tyrion is at least clear-eyed enough in that moment to realize that if Jaime is this willing to piss his life away he isn't going to do it just to talk Cersei into surrendering to be taken prisoner and almost surely executed.  Giving them a viable escape option gives them incentive.  As hellbent as Tyrion has been throughout this entire war on not seeing Cersei as too far gone to reason with despite all evidence to the contrary, he probably doesn't want to have to watch her be executed either if there's another option.

I thought he was really doing it for Jaime, and Jaime's child, not specifically for Cersei.

[nodorothyparker]

4 minutes ago, screamin said:

I thought he was really doing it for Jaime, and Jaime's child, not specifically for Cersei.

Yeah, that's sort of what I was getting at.  You just managed to say it a lot more succinctly.  Tyrion has been completely obsessed with the idea of Cersei's fetus mattering in all of this.

[ulkis]

6 minutes ago, screamin said:

I thought he was really doing it for Jaime, and Jaime's child, not specifically for Cersei.

That just kind of brings it around to the original point, why would Tyrion encourage Jaime to go with Cersei, who just tried to kill him (Jaime)? If it was just for Jaime then that doesn't make much sense, because Tyrion knows she's a crazy person who could snap and try to put out a hit on Jaime again.

[screamin]

5 minutes ago, ulkis said:

That just kind of brings it around to the original point, why would Tyrion encourage Jaime to go with Cersei, who just tried to kill him (Jaime)? If it was just for Jaime then that doesn't make much sense, because Tyrion knows she's a crazy person who could snap and try to put out a hit on Jaime again.

Because he knows Jaime gave up a good woman to try to save Cersei, who Jaime knows as well as Tyrion that she sent a man to kill him. Tyrion knows Jaime is set on Cersei and won't leave without her, no matter what. In other words, Jaime is set on Cersei or death. If Jaime stays, Dany kills him as a traitor. If Jaime goes to Cersei, then maybe he'll convince her to leave with him - at least there's a chance for him to live then. Since Tyrion thinks of Jaime as having saved his life, he feels he owes him the chance.

[chrisvee]

2 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

If all Tyrion wanted was for Jamie to convince Cersei to surrender, why did he provide them with a boat to escape?

I’m fanwanking this that his other big motivation is to save Jaime and the baby.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

If all Tyrion wanted was for Jamie to convince Cersei to surrender, why did he provide them with a boat to escape?

He wanted both. He was telling Jaime he'd help them escape but he also trusted him to try to get Cersei to ring the bells and so call off the attack. The potential escape is a good incentive for both Jaime and Cersei.

[GraceK]

another goody 😂

[raven]

2 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

One point of the show is blasting apart the trope that defeating an existential threat such as the Night King is a signifier of moral superiority.

It doesn't though.  Arya got the kill and she is easily being presented as heroic, learning from her mistakes and even noble as she tries to save the people of KL.

IMO the show has not been trope busting since D&D ran out of book material.  Now it's fairly common in entertainment to have the "bad" guys win or return, or have an ambiguous ending.  The pendulum will swing back around eventually.

[RobertDeSneero]

9 minutes ago, raven said:

It doesn't though.  Arya got the kill and she is easily being presented as heroic, learning from her mistakes and even noble as she tries to save the people of KL.

IMO the show has not been trope busting since D&D ran out of book material.  Now it's fairly common in entertainment to have the "bad" guys win or return, or have an ambiguous ending.  The pendulum will swing back around eventually.

I'm fairly certain that Dany burning King's Landing is unpublished book material.  The Night King and Clegane Bowl are examples of things that I think D&D added that won't be in the books.

[raven]

1 minute ago, RobertDeSneero said:

I'm fairly certain that Dany burning King's Landing is unpublished book material.  The Night King and Clegane Bowl are examples of things that I think D&D added that won't be in the books.

GRRM telling D&D that Dany will burn KL is not the same thing as following a book plot, especially since the book isn't written yet.  I am talking about plot and dialogue.  D&D go from Point A to B with little thought as to how to get there; they just know they have to get there.   I've thought the dialogue has been pretty flat for a while (the Dany/Jon convo before boatsex comes to mind) though.

The NK ended up being a disappointing flop.  Clegane Bowl worked solely on the strength of Rory McCann's performance ("fucking die!!!") and the shot of Cersei sneaking down the stairs, heh.

[GraceK]

From Chrys reviews 😂😂😂😂

[jeansheridan]

There was a moment during the faceoff with the Lannister soldiers when I thought Grey Worm would turn on Jon. He definitely noticed when Jon tried to stop the attack. But then they both got swallowed up by the chaos. 

I like how Grey Worm has actually been more of a physical presence this season. He seemed to be missing most of last season. As Dany's last loyalist he should be important. 

And his anger, while very scary, felt righteous until he killed the unarmed soldier. 

[WatchrTina]

NewRockstars has put up their review/recap of the ep.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSWAkQfSmZQ

Edited May 15, 2019 by WatchrTina

[GraceK]

I liked the fact that it wasn’t the Dothraki and unsullied we saw raping and pillaging, but the Northern soldiers. They were just as eager to kill and revel in bloodshed. They hate the Lannister’s and Kings Landing and they had no problem giving into the bloodthirst either. I think it’s very telling that everyone’s focusing on Dany going apeshit but no ones commenting on the fact that it was pretty much only Tyrion and Jon with the “ oh no” faces. The northern army loved this shit, and Jon had to kill his own man to prevent rape.  Oh but the North is so much better than these foreign invaders!!😂🤣😂

Edited May 15, 2019 by GraceK

[RobertDeSneero]

32 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I liked the fact that it wasn’t the Dothraki and unsullied we saw raping and pillaging, but the Northern soldiers. 

It would be shocking if we saw the Unsullied raping.

[lucindabelle]

I could have sworn the would be rapist had a curved Dothraki sword.

[GraceK]

5 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

I could have sworn the would be rapist had a curved Dothraki sword.

He was a white guy with northern armor. 

[lucindabelle]

27 minutes ago, GraceK said:

He was a white guy with northern armor. 

Read it enough that it must be true... couldn’t bring myself to rewatch. 

[Dame sans merci]

3 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Read it enough that it must be true... couldn’t bring myself to rewatch. 

Here he is:

So, yes, definitely a fellow northerner.

[Friendly kitty]

2 hours ago, Dame sans merci said:

So, yes, definitely a fellow northerner.

Yes, only Northerners raped and killed civilians. Dothraki killed only soldiers. By this they are better than Deaneris and those who came from the north. That's what it means, true army training received in childhood ...

[Dame sans merci]

13 minutes ago, Friendly kitty said:

Yes, only Northerners raped and killed civilians. Dothraki killed only soldiers. By this they are better than Deaneris and those who came from the north. That's what it means, true army training received in childhood ...

I was posting a confirmation screenshot for the people querying, not taking any moral position, so i'm not sure I understand your post...?

[RedheadZombie]

On 5/13/2019 at 9:09 AM, YaddaYadda said:

No. Dany's biggest mistake was not getting rid of Tyrion when he revealed his identity to her. 

That’s evidence of her mercy, in my opinion.  Another is accepting and trusting Barristan, who would still be with the Lannister’s if they had respected him, as well as bringing Varys (OMG autocorrect was “a stud”) into her circle. 

[tv-talk]

22 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

drogon bombing KL is much more like allies bombing Hiroshima. Innocents died there too and many people argue we shouldn’t have done it.

I would say more like Nagasaki, everyone agrees it shouldnt have been done.

[tv-talk]

16 hours ago, AuntieMame said:

i would have no problem reading or watching the making of a tyrant, but the characterization and motivations have been sexist and inconsistent. I'm not bothered that Dany is bad. I'm bothered at the reasons given.

What is sexist about it? The line has always been "A Targ is born and coin flipped" or whatever it is. She has ALWAYS been descendant of the incestuous, mad line of Targeryans right? Just imho I feel as if the shows have been turned so much into this portrayal of strong women and feminism so folks who only watch the show got very upset with what's happened. However in the books it's completely in character for:

1)Dany to torch the whole city and

2)Jaimie to go back to Cersei and love her rather than strangle her

For me personally the dumbing down of Tyrion is the most annoying aspect of recent seasons

[YaddaYadda]

14 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

That’s evidence of her mercy, in my opinion.  Another is accepting and trusting Barristan, who would still be with the Lannister’s if they had respected him, as well as bringing Varys (OMG autocorrect was “a stud”) into her circle. 

Yes, it is evidence of mercy and evidence that she didn't hold what Tywin did to part of her family against Tyrion. 

In a lot of ways, the same courtesy was not extended to her (and I'm not necessarily talking about Tyrion here). A lot of people held Aerys's actions against her.

[Francie]

19 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Thank you for sharing this article.  

It's getting at a lot of where my sticking points are too.  Had this ending been written back in season 2 or early 3 pre hand chop, I very easily would have bought it.  Even after cooling his heels for a good long while in a prison cell, that Jaime is barely aware that the world exists outside of Cersei and the Lannister brand.  But it asks us to ignore everything we saw, in some cases, in the same damn episode since then.

Just wait.  

P.S. I love your user name! 

[Sakura12]

I would've rather seen Dany chasing Cersei down the streets of KL, burning anyone that got in the way. That would've made more sense. Then see Jamie down there trying to rescue her, making her even more mad knowing Tyrion let him out. Then she would just start burning everything. 

[benteen]

If after Missandei's death, Dany had rushed to her dragon and then lit up King's Landing, that would have at least made more sense.  Mind you, it still would have been 100% wrong and unforgiveable but at least it would have made more sense.

[Dame sans merci]

8 minutes ago, benteen said:

If after Missandei's death, Dany had rushed to her dragon and then lit up King's Landing, that would have at least made more sense.  Mind you, it still would have been 100% wrong and unforgiveable but at least it would have made more sense.

Absolutely. Dany has lost a lot - Missandei, Jorah, Rhaegal - in a very short space of time, and found herself isolated. But what we got wasn't somebody seemingly tipping over the edge into rage through grief...it was somebody who apparently just decided to become a war criminal. 

[andipandi]

there are lots of good reasons dany could have had for torching KL. Drogon gets hit by arrows, or townspeople throwing pitchforks, or cersei fake-surrendering (ring the bells, then attack anyway). I was expecting a fake surrender.

Not sold on the crazy dany, unless somehow Varys was feeding her "go suddenly murderous" juice.

[Nashville]

On 5/12/2019 at 9:35 PM, raven said:

Oh and FUCK Urine. How the fuck does that asshole get a heroic death too?  He should have been burned alive.

Echo x1000; the death I wanted to see was for Urine to drown in a great big vat of dragon piss.

On 5/12/2019 at 9:47 PM, HeySandyStrange said:

So what was the point of having Jaime finally get together with Brienne, if he ran straight back into Cersei's arms after their failed attempt to run off in the sunset together? Why let Brienne cry over this subpar version of Jaime?

Perhaps after Brienne’s and Jamie’s brief-but-sticky time together, Brienne is unknowingly carrying the future of House Lannister in her womb...?

On 5/13/2019 at 7:48 AM, Maximum Taco said:

Targaryens aren't immune to fire. It's just Dany. And in the books it's just Dany at the specific moment she hatches the dragons and never again. 

And this is a discussion thread of the show episode - not the book - and on the show there was at least one other such occurrence:

https://youtu.be/Pg5TY_42f2U

On 5/13/2019 at 10:49 AM, Lamima said:

Title is The Bells. Should be Hell's Bells.

As you wish:

https://youtu.be/R5MBpVSS704

[Lamima]

11 minutes ago, Nashville said:

Echo x1000; the death I wanted to see was for Urine to drown in a great big vat of dragon piss.

Perhaps after Brienne’s and Jamie’s brief-but-sticky time together, Brienne is unknowingly carrying the future of House Lannister in her womb...?

And this is a discussion thread of the show episode - not the book - and on the show there was at least one other such occurrence:

https://youtu.be/Pg5TY_42f2U

As you wish:

https://youtu.be/R5MBpVSS704

Does lighten things up a bit 🙂

[Nashville]

28 minutes ago, Lamima said:

Does lighten things up a bit 🙂

Now what I’d REALLY like to see would be Drogon’s attack synced to “Thunderstruck”.  😄

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, Nashville said:

Echo x1000; the death I wanted to see was for Urine to drown in a great big vat of dragon piss.

 

[SNeaker]

1 hour ago, Nashville said:

Now what I’d REALLY like to see would be Drogon’s attack synced to “Thunderstruck”.  😄

I want a video of Dany burning it all down to Pink's "Just Like Fire."

[HeySandyStrange]

2 hours ago, Nashville said:

Perhaps after Brienne’s and Jamie’s brief-but-sticky time together, Brienne is unknowingly carrying the future of House Lannister in her womb...?

Ugh, I've said it before, but I hate the idea of Brienne being the baby incubator for that sister-loving chump. IF she is carrying a baby, though, hopefully it is the future of House Tarth, not Lannister.

[MrWhyt]

8 hours ago, Friendly kitty said:

Yes, only Northerners raped and killed civilians. Dothraki killed only soldiers. By this they are better than Deaneris and those who came from the north. That's what it means, true army training received in childhood ...

the dothraki aren't an army, they're a horde. They're know for pillaging and raping. While we didn't see them rape during the sack of king's landing it wouldn't be out of character for them. They definitely killed civilians, some of the people Arya brought out of their hiding place were cut down by dothraki.

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

the dothraki aren't an army, they're a horde. They're know for pillaging and raping. While we didn't see them rape during the sack of king's landing it wouldn't be out of character for them. They definitely killed civilians, some of the people Arya brought out of their hiding place were cut down by dothraki.

It was purely trying to avoid backlash to not show the Dothraki doing what they do.  They are POC, and so of course they had to show a white guy raping.

In truth, rape happens all the time in war, even today.  Aside from the Unsullied?  I'm sure that all side were raping innocents.  Not every member of all sides (aside from the Dothraki) but some.

[MrWhyt]

11 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

It was purely trying to avoid backlash to not show the Dothraki doing what they do.  They are POC, and so of course they had to show a white guy raping.

In truth, rape happens all the time in war, even today.  Aside from the Unsullied?  I'm sure that all side were raping innocents.  Not every member of all sides (aside from the Dothraki) but some.

or they showed a northman raping someone to add to Jon's uncertainty to the righteousness of their cause.

[CherryMalotte]

On a lighter note...

[Nashville]

1 hour ago, SNeaker said:

I want a video of Dany burning it all down to Pink's "Just Like Fire."

...or, kick the film speed up a bit and put it to AWOLNATION’s “Burn It Down”.

Hey - at this point in the series, this is about more fun than actually watching the show. 😉 

21 minutes ago, CherryMalotte said:

On a lighter note...

I love Trae Crowder.  😄