S08.E05: The Bells

[ShellsandCheese]

1 minute ago, rmontro said:

How about Tyrion snitching on Varys?  What you think about that?

Was he trying to protect his own skin?  Was he trying to put a stop to Varys' plots?

Was he trying to be the good Hand of the Queen?

Just a dirty snitch?  What?  

Playing the game and protecting himself, so he can protect his family. Dany’s biggest mistake was making him her hand. 

[Maximum Taco]

7 minutes ago, rmontro said:

How about Tyrion snitching on Varys?  What you think about that?

Was he trying to protect his own skin?  Was he trying to put a stop to Varys' plots?

Was he trying to be the good Hand of the Queen?

Just a dirty snitch?  What?  

I think Tyrion still believed in Dany. All the way through, like up until the moment of "The Bells." He'd thrown his lot in with her, just like he told Varys in the previous episode. And he snitched on Varys because of that belief he has in Dany. He still thought she would do the right thing up until the moment she didn't. 

But he also never really trusted her. He didn't trust her to hear him out about his brother, he didn't trust her to show mercy to his sister. And I think he's justified there. She was going to kill Cersei most definitely, and she was probably going to kill Jaime too. And Tyrion, for whatever reason, still seems to love his family. Which is really odd because book Tyrion seems to hate all of them, so I don't see how he could possibly get to this endgame. Tyrion is the one character who feels like he's changed the most from the books to the show, like fundamentally. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

I think Tyrion still believed in Dany. All the way through, like up until the moment of "The Bells." He'd thrown his lot in with her, just like he told Varys in the previous episode. And he snitched on Varys because of that belief he has in Dany. 

But he also never really trusted her. He didn't trust her to hear him out about his brother, he didn't trust her to show mercy to his sister. And I think he's justified there. She was going to kill Cersei most definitely, and she was probably going to kill Jaime too. And Tyrion, for whatever reason, still seems to love his family. Which is really odd because book Tyrion seems to hate all of them, so I don't see how he could possibly get to this endgame. Tyrion is the one character who feels like he's changed the most from the books to the show, like fundamentally. 

He and Jaime always loved each other.

[Maximum Taco]

Just now, Umbelina said:

He and Jaime always loved each other.

In the show, yes. 

But in the books, Tyrion hates Jaime for being part of the Tysha incident where his father makes Tyrion believe that his first wife was a whore. 

[RobertDeSneero]

This is the ending I've been expecting ever since I read that GRRM saw Aragorn as a mythic figure who wins the battle, then rules wisely and just as a king, but that he was interested in going in a different direction.  So, I think that the book's goal is for the defeat of the Others to be followed by a resumption of the game of thrones, in which Dany is found to be wanting as a queen.  

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, Maximum Taco said:

In the show, yes. 

But in the books, Tyrion hates Jaime for being part of the Tysha incident where his father makes Tyrion believe that his first wife was a whore. 

Wow, I really have forgotten the books if Tyrion and Jaime still don't love each other.

Other than that incident, Jaime was the only person in his family who had always been very kind to him.

[jeansheridan]

5 minutes ago, rmontro said:

How about Tyrion snitching on Varys?  What you think about that?

I loved Varys but he did try to use a little girl to poison Dany. That's fairly direct treason. And he used a kid to do it.

He did go out like a boss however. 

It honestly never occurred to me that Jaime would get caught going to King's Landing. I am not that bright.

Another beauty scene is when the Hound and Arya are walking to the Red Keep and the Hound has his hood up. He just looks so powerful. He really was quite the twisted father figure. 

In an alternate universe the Hound and Brienne are together with Arya as their honorary daughter. A murdery trio.

[rmontro]

4 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

I think Tyrion still believed in Dany. All the way through, like up until the moment of "The Bells." He'd thrown his lot in with her, just like he told Varys in the previous episode. And he snitched on Varys because of that belief he has in Dany. He still thought she would do the right thing up until the moment she didn't. 

I think you're right about that.  He still believed in her although he was concerned.  I think he saw betraying Varys as being very regretful, but as something that had to be done.  I like that he was brave enough to tell Varys "It was me" and offer him some small comfort at the end.  I also notice not even a scream from Varys, might show how hot dragonfire is.

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

He and Jaime always loved each other.

Jaime did swear to kill Tyrion next time he saw him after he killed his father.  I guess that was arguably in the heat of the moment though, because when they did meet up again, that's not how it went down.

[jeansheridan]

7 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Tyrion is the one character who feels like he's changed the most from the books to the show, like fundamentally. 

He is much more angry and sour in the books. He is not super kind to Sansa when they marry, he is furious with Jaime for what happened to his wife. Killing Shae is a much more angry moment versus hurt. He's just tougher and meaner.

But if he is a secret Targaryens and Dany tried to burn him....She has burned so many people. How interesting would it be if she can't burn him?.

[Umbelina]

5 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

He is much more angry and sour in the books. He is not super kind to Sansa when they marry, he is furious with Jaime for what happened to his wife. Killing Shae is a much more angry moment versus hurt. He's just tougher and meaner.

But if he is a secret Targaryens and Dany tried to burn him....She has burned so many people. How interesting would it be if she can't burn him?.

I don't know how that quote got messed up, but I don't think I've ever said, or even thought that.

[FemmyV]

I really dreaded watching this episode, cause I got spoilered. The pleasant surprise was Dany didn't really go all out apeshit and really, when I think about it ... Kings Landing got the roasting it's had coming for a long time.

Am I really supposed to feel sorry for these so-called innocents? These are the people who cheered when Ned was executed. These are the people who ripped the limbs off of one of Joffrey's guards (instead of Joff). These are the people who threw shit at Cersei, accepted what the Sparrows were doing, and then did nothing to rebel when Cersei blew up the Sept? And now they hide under her protection?

Fuck 'em. Burn them all.

But Dany must be mad and evil to tear that cesspool down.  So much for the fantasy aspect. And yes, I'm going to be pissed as all fucking hell if the message, when all is said and done, comes down to: women are more accepted and successful when they manipulate people and events to get their way (Sansa, and Cersei until she took the throne for herself), and best leaving the open attacks to menfolk. That is, except for  Arya and Brienne.

So Jamie treated Brienne to a pity fuck, and went back to die in Cersei's arms? Weak. They both got better deaths than they deserved, in that case.

Loved Arya and the Hound's parting. "Sandor," indeed.

Edited May 13, 2019 by FemmyV

[jeansheridan]

11 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

don't know how that quote got messed up, but I don't think I've ever said, or even thought that.

You mean the Targaryen thing? I've read for years people suspect he is a Targ. The way the dragons reacted to him, how much Tywin despised him, etc...I think it would be a stupid twist at this point. I was just playing with the idea of Dany being unable to.burn someone other than the Night King.

[Jennifersdc]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

She may be over all of that.  Wasn't that what her conversation win Sangor was all about?  She looked like the little girl she is in that scene, not the cold blooded justice seeking killer anymore.

Maybe. But I think she’s probably pissed after seeing first hand (while running for her life) what Dany had Drogon do for no real reason. Being a book reader I like to think Arya used her Stark warg skills to get that horse.

Jon Snow and Davos are definitely not happy. As a book reader, I’m much happier what they’ve done with Davos on the series. Last I recall he was going to Skagos on fat Lord Manderly’s (secret Frey killer) request to find Rickon Stark.

[Oscirus]

41 minutes ago, rmontro said:

How about Tyrion snitching on Varys?  What you think about that?

Was he trying to protect his own skin?  Was he trying to put a stop to Varys' plots?

Was he trying to be the good Hand of the Queen?

Just a dirty snitch?  What?  

Tyrion threw his best friend under the bus to throw in his lot with the queen. People think he was trying to save his brother and cersei when he saved Jaime when he was actually trying to save the city that hate him so.  If there's anybody who's a tragic character it's tyrion cuz if he doesn't help her out of Mereen, none of these events ever happen.

I bought Dany's insanity and the unsullied's heel turn.  Wasn't about character assassination, it was always about showing that these people snapped.  Happens sometimes.

So we all thought the stuff falling on the throne in Danys vision was snow when it actually turned out to be ash.

Cersei's death was never gonna be epic enough so why not just have fun with it. I did appreciate that at the end, she couldn't even inspire her own men to fight for her.

Qyburn dying like trash when the plot had no further use for him was lolz.

Clegane bowl, eh.

Most of the goodbyes were surprisingly appropriate.

[bijoux]

Does anyone have any clue as to who Varys was writing to in the beginning? It didn't even play a role in his death sentence so it feels like a weird dangling thread.

45 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Wow, I really have forgotten the books if Tyrion and Jaime still don't love each other.

Other than that incident, Jaime was the only person in his family who had always been very kind to him.

Wasn't Kevan always decent to him as well? Or maybe some other uncle. But as for the immediate family, Jaime was the stand alone for sure.

44 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

It honestly never occurred to me that Jaime would get caught going to King's Landing. I am not that bright.

The fact that he didn't think to remove his gold hand gave me a healthy chuckle.

20 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

You mean the Targaryen thing? I've read for years people suspect he is a Targ. The way the dragons reacted to him, how much Tywin despised him, etc...I think it would be a stupid twist at this point. I was just playing with the idea of Dany being unable to.burn someone other than the Night King.

I assume people also play on the fact that in the books Aerys developed a thing for Tyrion's mom and that played into Tywin resigning as Hand as well. And we know damn well Aerys wasn't averse to rape. He did it to his own wife plenty of times.

[Oscirus]

2 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I assume people also play on the fact that in the books Aerys developed a thing for Tyrion's mom and that played into Tywin resigning as Hand as well. And we know damn well Aerys wasn't averse to rape. He did it to his own wife plenty of times.

That and the fact that tyrions mom died in child birth like Dany and Jon's.

[lucindabelle]

1 hour ago, Maximum Taco said:

 . 

But he also never really trusted her. He didn't trust her to hear him out about his brother, he didn't trust her to show mercy to his sister.  . 

Wtf??

tyrion worked FOR DANY. He had zero right to EXPECT mercy for THEIR ENEMY. 

Hes the hand of the queen. As such he’s NOT meant to be working for his siblings. She asked him over and over aboutbhis loyalties.

seriously, that’s an unforgivable conflict of interest and he should have resigned.

imagine an attorney general who secretly worked to keep his friends Out of jail. Oh wait.

but anyway. You see my point. He was IN HER GOVERNMENT. And he had loyalties tonthebOTHER SIDE.

[GraceK]

Anyone else over Jon? Seriously he’s such a wet potato these past two seasons.  That’s what’s really insulting. Why are you even in love with him  Dany??? Ugh 😑 

[ulkis]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

More like the writers wanted to give Lena another emmy scene.

YUP!  I wanted her tortured, flayed alive, preferably killed by Sansa or Arya for all the hell she put them through, or someone else with a life ruined by Cersei. 

Fuck this Romeo and Juliet crap.

Cersei never even had an inkling of Jaime and Brienne's relationship. From his side, at least. Just plain old odd writing.

7 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Anyone else over Jon? Seriously he’s such a wet potato these past two seasons.  That’s what’s really insulting. Why are you even in love with him  Dany??? Ugh 😑 

My question was why was either in love with the other. Rushed relationship that had no time to develop.

[GraceK]

I also think it’s quite obvious that Arya is the most important person in this series. Looking back now, on everything, and her killing the NK, clearly she’s the undercover main character. 

[RobertDeSneero]

2 hours ago, GraceK said:

I also think it’s quite obvious that Arya is the most important person in this series. Looking back now, on everything, and her killing the NK, clearly she’s the undercover main character. 

Martin's most important characters are Jon, Arya, Bran, Dany, and Tyrion.  I'm not even sure that Cersei would be alive and on the Iron Throne if the book series reaches its endgame.

[Umbelina]

In the inside the episode they say they wanted lots of regular people scenes to show the reality of war and the murder of innocents, and since they (me now) hadn't bothered letting us get to know any of them, (them again) they decided putting Ayra right in the middle of the death and mayhem would make it more real by throwing in a character the viewers actually knew and cared about.

This shows how ridiculously rushed this season was, and how short sited they were in earlier seasons.  Instead, we basically got the Cersei and Dany/Dragons show, with enough of the North WW problem to let them do a bunch of scary/cool CGI work and have tons of battles and fight scenes.  They threw in Sansa for some horror/rape/learning and a rather wonderful growth arc from romantic fool child to calm thoughtful strong woman, but really, this show has been mostly on Dany/Dragons and Cersei/power/Jamie.  All the nutso powerful murdering men were killed off long ago.

Still, I do love the way they resolved the Hound and Arya's story, and the hope that Ayra can go back to just being a girl, well able to take care of herself, but no longer burdened with justice/revenge.   I hope, only another killer, one who really understood her and was as strong as she was could tell her those things and get through to her.

While I agree there have certainly been signs of Dany's eventual "Fire and Blood" response when things in her world sucked, they needed more personal scenes, and fewer fights and battles, to really sell this.  Kudos to Emilia because she pulled off some fantastic acting with no help from the writers. 

GRRM could have made all of this work as an ending.  The showrunners?  Came up short, but at least we are getting a finish to the damn books, and it's fairly easy to fill in the gaping holes the TV show left open.  For non book readers?  Probably not going to be possible.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Umbelina
typo

[Misplaced]

I may be in the minority but I loved it.  LOVED it.  Some of the many, many things I loved:

When Tyrion comes to Dany to 'fess up about Varys, towards the end of that scene, she's looking out the window and we hear faintly the "Dracarys" music (the cello riff).  THAT is the point where I was like, huh, she's at Dragonstone and she's burned people and wait who else burned people oh! Dragonstone! Stannis and Melisandre and wait Cersei too and why did I ever think she wasn't going to go full-on Mad Queen?  She burns people!  D'oh.  

Tyrion hugging Jaime:  mirror image of Arya hugging Jon in the Godswood at Winterfell.  Same pose, other shoulder, same subject (family).

Arya saying farewell to the Hound: echoes Bran saying farewell to Theon.  

CleganeBowl!  Also I cheered when Qyburn got his. 

Yeah ok so I do wish the Cersei-Jaime death scene had been a little less treacly. 

So Dany is the Big Bad ... song of ice and fire.  Whoop.  

Also, utterly gorgeous music (as always). 

More to come after my second watch.

[SeanC]

One of the surely unintended ironies of how this episode was created is that it makes Tyrion and Varys' two seasons of whining about attacking King's Landing entirely hollow.  Daenerys uses Drogon the way we knew she could from the Essosi seasons, as a precision-targeting weapon to lay waste to the enemy ships, fortifications, and armies, but with minimal damage to anything else noted.  The mass civilian casualties only begin once Dany deliberately starts randomly slaughtering everybody.  So if she hadn't wasted two seasons listening to Tyrion and avoiding attacking the city, in which time all the stuff that the writers are saying drove her mad happened, she would have won.

[Misplaced]

6 hours ago, Chaser said:

Fear. That was her gain. Her conversation with Jon set her down the path. She knew she would never have their love or loyalty so she would take and hold the Throne by fear. 

I have a slightly different take on that scene - as I think she's already snapped at that point and has travelled down the garden path.  I think the choice she gives between love and fear is a choice she's giving TO JON.  Love me, or fear me. 

I'll have to confirm that on second watch, but that's how I read it now anyway. 

[Happy Harpy]

Although I stopped watching after 8x03 (the perks of being a spoiler whore) you can't escape GoT on the net.

And I realized the genius of D&D.

All those much decried eunuch jokes, which they bravely stuck to including in S8.

It was foreshadowing of the endgame, from the start: Varys betrayed Daenerys out of penis envy! #ADickForTheThrone #OnlyDicksWanted #NoMa'am2019Campaign

[huahaha]

Thinking about it next day, one of the details I really liked was the final ending to the original kingsguard. Jamie, the Hound, the Mountain - they were the last.

You can really feel it when Cersei says her own soldiers will defend the city, but Jon and Grey Worm face down a sea of scared no-names who drop their swords. Where are the legendary protectors of regimes past who could cut down anyone who crossed their path? All gone, starting in season 1, many due to Cersei's/the Lannisters increasing ruthlessness.

When the Hound goes to face his brother, the point is driven home: he nods to Cersei and calls her "Your Grace," making it clear he hasn't forgotten who he is. Then he cuts down the whole pack of her worthless replacement soldiers.

With the deaths of Varys and Qyburn as well, the old order really is gone. Who's left to rule the great houses now? Bastards, daughters, dwarves. A lot of people suffered as a result of the destruction, but maybe there is something to a clean slate.*

*Assuming GRRM's writing will actually explain Dany's actions better than D&D.

Edited May 13, 2019 by huahaha

[shrewd.buddha]

10 hours ago, mac123x said:

Spectacle over coherent plot, every time.

The saddest death, to me, is probably watching the show itself wither away in a tangle of tropes and cliches. 

I did not enjoy how, in just a short period, Daenarys becomes the villain and Cercei gets a comforting exit that almost casts her as a victim of a crazed killer.
Urine (Euron) miraculously washes up on the very shore where Jamie has managed to run to in record time. But of course he is the only sailor to make it there. Sure. 

Jon Snow - as portrayed here - is a horrible leader. His bumbling non-reactions, not speaking up, not taking decisive action at key moments. He could have had the opposing soldiers remove their armor and march out of the city as soon as they surrendered. He could have attempted to put himself between Daenarys and Cercei's tower. 
Perhaps Jon is supposed to be the epitome of how bad things happen when good men do nothing. 

I can get behind the idea of burning King's Landing to the ground and destroying the Iron Throne. Daenarys' advisers, instead of plotting behind her back and isolating her, could have anticipated that and worked towards making sure the city could be evacuated (as much as possible). 

Edited May 13, 2019 by shrewd.buddha

[Eyes High]

8 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Tyrion and Jaime have proven family love matters a lot.

Tyrion crying in Jaime's arms, realizing that he's never going to see his brother again no matter what happens, put any Stark sibling interactions to shame. That was truly heartbreaking.

[Haleth]

Well, if they blew the budget in 8.3, they tore it up, stomped all over it, ground it to pulp, then peed on it in this one.  It was spectacular in terms of cinema, thrilling to watch, suspenseful and terrifying.  But I too was disappointed in some of the plotting.  We've watched Dany learn to rule for 7 years.  She made mistakes but learned how to temper authority with justice and compassion.  This episode?  Never mind, just burn it all down, including all the innocent inhabitants of the city.  Weren't we supposed to be rooting for her?  Wasn't she supposed to be the answer to Cersei's tyranny? 

Speaking of Cersei, I can't say how disappointed I am in how she and Jaime died.  (IF they died, I'm not convinced they won't crawl out of the wreckage next week.)  Was there a person on this planet who didn't think either Jaime or Arya would kill Cercei?  If this is what Martin planned for them, it's a big ol' FU to fandom.  I'm also disappointed (albeit to a lesser degree) that Sandor died while killing his brother and that Euron didn't die a more ignoble death.  (No, Euron, you did not kill Jaime Lannister.)

At least Maisie was MVP again with all the stunts and physical acting she had to perform.

The good?  A big Hell, Yeah moment at 0:39 when the armies are facing each other and we hear a series of approaching booms in the background.  Suddenly the gate bursts open from the inside and Drogon torches the Golden Company,  That was fun.

[AshleyN]

5 hours ago, GraceK said:

Anyone else over Jon? Seriously he’s such a wet potato these past two seasons.  That’s what’s really insulting. Why are you even in love with him  Dany??? Ugh 😑 

They pretty much killed Jon's character when they decided to (a) insert Sansa into the Northern storyline, and (b) turn the Northerners into a bunch of fickle, useless, assholes. Like, the show version has always been more one-note than book Jon who among other things was far more politcally astute, but by the time they got to Season 5 it seemed like they had finally managed to depict him as someone who had become more sure of himself and in his own way had grown into a real leader, albeit a flawed one. But then they basically undid all of that* because they wanted Sansa to be the politician of the family, and unfortunately their go-to method of writing "smart" characters (not that I think they've been overly successful in that regard with Sansa) is to make everyone around them dumb and/or useless. So rather than have them, you know, work together to try to save humanity, each utilizing their own strengths, we got a whole lot of artificial tension.

*And honestly, I could understand the regression somewhat when it came to Season 6 -- the depression and PTSD that resulted from him literally dying rendered him ineffective, lacking confidence, and struggling to find motivation. But then they had that great scene of him in BotB crawling out of that pile of bodies and choosing to live and it felt like they were going to get him back on track, but...nothing. If anything he became more passive than ever. Even when it came to fighting the White Walkers, his driving motivation for the entire series, it felt kind of half-hearted in comparison to the earlier seasons.

Really, the only remotely satisfying ending for him at this point is to realize that he doesn't belong in the south and head beyond the Wall again for good.

Edited May 13, 2019 by AshleyN

[Misplaced]

32 minutes ago, Haleth said:

 But I too was disappointed in some of the plotting.  We've watched Dany learn to rule for 7 years.  She made mistakes but learned how to temper authority with justice and compassion.  

Well.  I'm thinking back on "justice and compassion" - we saw that with Hizdar Lo Boring or whatever his name was in Meereen (when he asked to take his father down from the cross and bury him), and we saw it with Jorah (he lied, she banished him, etc etc).  But I'm not sure we've seen it elsewhere?  Genuine question.

One thing I found really compelling was the comparison of the execution scene in Season 6.09 when she returns to Meereen and meets with the representatives of the Masters -- she has them executed (and only 2!) with Greyworm's knife -- with the later executions (Tarleys, Varys) by dragonfire.  Oh!  And the execution of Mossador in Season 5, also via blade.

I don't know, it's like once she starts playing with dragonfire, she starts to creep into Crazytown.  At least that's how it appears to me.  

Edited May 13, 2019 by Misplaced
sarcasm, as always

[festivus]

So a castle literally fell on Cersei's head and still I am unsatisfied. And Jaime, sigh. It makes sense I guess, but how utterly boring.

[Maximum Taco]

6 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

He is much more angry and sour in the books. He is not super kind to Sansa when they marry, he is furious with Jaime for what happened to his wife. Killing Shae is a much more angry moment versus hurt. He's just tougher and meaner.

But if he is a secret Targaryens and Dany tried to burn him....She has burned so many people. How interesting would it be if she can't burn him?.

Targaryens aren't immune to fire. It's just Dany. And in the books it's just Dany at the specific moment she hatches the dragons and never again. 

6 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Tyrion threw his best friend under the bus to throw in his lot with the queen. People think he was trying to save his brother and cersei when he saved Jaime when he was actually trying to save the city that hate him so.  If there's anybody who's a tragic character it's tyrion cuz if he doesn't help her out of Mereen, none of these events ever happen.

I think this is another "it doesn't have to be one or the other" type thing. 

Tyrion is never really the type to accept something, he'll request trial by battle when he has no champion, he'll set the harbor ablaze to save the city. He's the Capt Kirk of this story and he tried once again to Kobayashi Maru this situation. 

"Look, you can either save your brother, or you can try to save the city."

5 hours ago, bijoux said:

Does anyone have any clue as to who Varys was writing to in the beginning? It didn't even play a role in his death sentence so it feels like a weird dangling thread.

They were letters proclaiming Jon the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. 

Parts I could make out 

"...is not the only Targaryen left...."

"...Rhaegar and Lyanna..."

"...Their son lives still, hidden by Eddard Stark, his name is..."

"...he is the true heir to the Iron Throne"

He had a bunch of already rolled scrolls beside him too, so I assume he was sending them to multiple people. Probably all the high lords in the land (Robin Arryn, New Prince of Dorne, whoever is ruling the Reach etc.) and maybe a few others.

Presumably if Jon had accepted his overture and decided to press his claim Varys would have sent them out. Or maybe he was already sending them out and that'll bear fruit in the final episode?

Edited May 13, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[AshleyN]

53 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Well, if they blew the budget in 8.3, they tore it up, stomped all over it, ground it to pulp, then peed on it in this one.  It was spectacular in terms of cinema, thrilling to watch, suspenseful and terrifying.  But I too was disappointed in some of the plotting.  We've watched Dany learn to rule for 7 years.  She made mistakes but learned how to temper authority with justice and compassion.  This episode?  Never mind, just burn it all down, including all the innocent inhabitants of the city.  Weren't we supposed to be rooting for her?  Wasn't she supposed to be the answer to Cersei's tyranny? 

I'm not sure we did though? We saw her trying to learn to rule in Mereen, but most of her efforts there failed and in the end she solved that problem the way she solved every other problem: Fire and Blood. Dany has never hesitated to resort to brutality, and if anything tends to default to it unless talked down, which is why I really have no problem with the idea behind her actions here. I just take issue with how it played out.

Regarding Cersei, I think the reason her death feels somewhat unsatisfying is because with all of the other "big bads" of the series their deaths came either directly or indirectly as a result of their own actions, a form of karmic payback: Joffrey's abuse of women lead to Olenna taking him out before he could hurt Margaery, Tywin's horrible treatment of his son led to the latter finally snapping and killing him, Ramsay...that goes without saying, Littlefinger after all those years was finally made to answer for his many crimes. With Cersei, I guess her execution of Missandei played a part in Dany snapping and destroying the city, but it was really just one of many factors and the way the episode was framed made it feel more like she was just collateral damage in Dany's rampage.

Edited May 13, 2019 by AshleyN

[benteen]

I have very mixed feelings about this episode, just like I do this season.

I tend to think Dany going Mad King is a GRRM development because D&D aren’t clever enough to come up with a twist like that.  On the whole, that is a brave development and the scenes themselves were really impressive.  But I agree that it didn’t feel earned.  There was no reason for Dany to do something this stupid.  She massacres men, women and children and destroys the place that her ancestors built because?  They didn’t kiss her ass?  Even the loss of her dragon and Missandei didn’t justify this.  She acted like her brother would have acted and she was not her brother.  She broke her toys and upended the game board.  All she had to do was roast Cersei alive in her castle and she could have had everything.

Don’t even get me started with Jaime.  D&D have hated the character almost from the beginning and with the exception of Season 1 and 3, have completely undermined his story.  I have no doubt that story will end with Cersei but I think the circumstances will be entirely different. 

They couldn’t even have him have one good fight scene on this show.  He doesn’t even give a crap about King’s Landing, which was one of the reasons he killed the Mad King for in the first place.

Dinklage is doing his usual fine work but damn, Tyrion has been an absolute idiot this season, being played and outwitted by everyone.  The same thing with Jon.  But of course, D&D are determined to make Sansa of all people the smartest person in the Realm as part of their continuing apology tour for everything they’ve done to the character.

Again, though, this all goes back to GRRM losing interest and never finishing the books.  Maybe things would have played out differently if he had finished the books but he didn’t.  Given the decline in quality of the last two books, I can’t imagine the story rebounding in a big way in quality either.

The Good:

I’ve never been impressed with Emilia Clarke as an actress.  I don’t even consider her in the Top 20 Actors/Actresses on the show.  But I thought she did her best acting last night and did sell the character’s current mindset well.  So, hats off.

Dinklage, again, did his usual strong work.  He’s always worked well off of NCW and Conleth Hill and had great scenes with them both.

Varys got another strong episode and effective death scene.  Book Varys like Book Littlefinger would have been a hell of a lot smarter but they both would have ended up dead in the books once the Others had come.

As said, the destruction of King’s Landing was very well done.  The fire, the sheer destruction, Arya trying to survive, excellent.

CleganeBowl was a great deal of fun, particularly in the burning rubble.  I was sorry to see Qyburn go but expected that…another character far better on the show than in the books.

I enjoyed Arya and the Hound’s interaction, which is the nicest thing he could have done to her.  I like that Arya is seeing where revenge will lead you and she was actually focused on trying to save people, even if it was unsuccessful.

A fantastic callback to Dany’s vision in the House of the Undying in Season 2.  Dany sees a vision of snow on the Iron Throne but in reality, it’s ash.  She became Queen of the Ashes.

Other thoughts…

BTW, isn’t it supposed to be winter in the Realm?  Not just the North?  I can buy that once the Walkers were destroyed, an early spring came.  But there was never any winter in King’s Landing on this show.

Cersei got off easy.  Then again, a lot of the villains in GRRM’s world seem to.  Joffrey, Tywin (though there was a lot of karma in his death), Cersei were never brought to justice for their crimes and executed for them.

Edited May 13, 2019 by benteen

[YaddaYadda]

7 hours ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Playing the game and protecting himself, so he can protect his family. Dany’s biggest mistake was making him her hand. 

No. Dany's biggest mistake was not getting rid of Tyrion when he revealed his identity to her. 

[Sakura12]

I think when Dany gave Missandei's only possession to Grey Worm and he threw it in the fire echoing her last words. Burn them. Dany decided then and was more determined after Jon's rejection to be the foreign invader they see her as. The way she was burning KL block by block was more then just getting to Cersei. She wants to start over probably with her allies.

[Avaleigh]

I said long ago that Brienne should have chosen Tormund (if she has to choose anyone) and last night's  episode only reinforces my opinion on that subject. Tormund was ready to worship her from day one and Jaime's heart was always divided. 

For years I was convinced that Jaime was the valonqar and that he'd kill Cersei to prevent her from murdering thousands of residents in King's Landing. Alternatively I thought Tyrion might be the one (or Arya masquerading as either brother) but never did I predict that Cersei wouldn't be killed by the valonqar. This show didn't even say for sure if Sansa or Dany was the "younger, more beautiful" woman who comes along. It's totally up to interpretation. There's even an argument to be made for it being Margaery. YTF bother with showing the prophecy flashback (when this show so rarely does flashbacks) only to have that stupid prophecy be meaningless in the end? It would have been better not to include it especially since the prophecy was already shown to be wrong with regard to the three kids. They conveniently forgot about her kid with Robert. I know the valonqar wasn't a show thing but I still thought we'd get a Lannister brother (or Arya in disguise as one) to kill Cersei in the end. I actually hate the prophecy in the books and feel that it was a kind of retcon but since it was shoehorned in I foolishly thought that it would end up playing a part to the story. 

I didn't need to see Cersei tortured and burned alive (I'm not into torture scenes) but I think it would have been nice to see a little more panic or fear. I guess I can take satisfaction in the fact that she was scared, she felt helpless, she spent some time feeling alone, she didn't have men defending her the way she deluded herself into thinking they would. She lost the support of the Mountain and had the fear of seeing Qyburn getting killed right in front of her. She got off a lot easier than many of her victims but at least there was some suffering. 

Dany's behavior is indefensible for me at this point. She killed a bunch of strangers including young kids because she could. Hundreds of lives gone in an instant because she's in a bad mood. 

Euron gets to kill Jaime?! I seriously, seriously hope this isn't a book thing. (Not that I think we'll ever get more books.) Also, Euron is another death that was way too easy. I wish Yara had been the one to kill him. 

All in all I'm disappointed in this season. I'm still bummed about how quickly the White Walkers were defeated. 

[anamika]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Tyrion crying in Jaime's arms, realizing that he's never going to see his brother again no matter what happens, put any Stark sibling interactions to shame. That was truly heartbreaking.

It's sad how much D&D took a big dump on the actual, good sibling relationship in the books - Jon and Arya .  A 2 minute reunion scene was all these characters got despite chapters and chapters of Jon and Arya thinking of each other in the books and Jon dying for to save Arya.

It's hard being fans of characters like Jon and Arya when one knows that D&D don't care about these characters and are only interested in writing for the Lannisters and Sansa.

[RobertDeSneero]

I wouldn't be surprised if the next episode begins with Dany explaining that her decision to burn King's Landing was not impulsive, but one that was planned in advance.  Now that Jon's secret may be out, she had to make the various Houses too afraid to challenge her rule.

If Dany needs to die, the show has a track record of characters not necessarily dying how you expect them to die.  The table is set for viewers to expect that Arya or Jon would kill her.  The way the show goes, it wouldn't be shocking if one of them tried and failed, only to have a different character deal the fatal blow.  Tyrion, perhaps, trying to rectify his mistake.

[nodorothyparker]

9 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Maybe it's the simplest of answers, She was a disease and he was infected and the antibiotic ( Brienne ) wasn't strong enough to wipe it out of him.

Olenna Tyrell in her final scene did tell Jaime that Cersei was a disease and that she'd probably be the death of him.  Turns out Grandma Tyrell was right about a whole lot of things, like how much of this conquest might have been a much smaller scale tragedy had Dany opted to "be a dragon" when she first showed up instead of spending nearly two seasons having pieces cut off of her as she followed bad advice after bad advice to get her to this breaking point.  That's not me defending any of this shitshow, by the way, as much as acknowledging that had she been allowed to fly in and roast the Red Keep in the beginning the way she clearly wanted to the body count probably would have been a whole lot smaller since that's the justification well Tyrion and Varys kept drawing from.

Jaime and Tyrion damn near broke my heart in their tearful farewell.  "If it weren't for you, I never would have survived my childhood.  You were the only one who didn't treat me like a monster. You were all I had."  As messy and dysfunctional as the Lannisters have always been, the writing always got Jaime and Tyrion right in giving us those tiny glimpses of how the Lannister siblings never really had a chance growing up in the House of Tywin of not being irretrievably twisted people.  

[Eyes High]

One of the things I noticed in this episode was that in the "Previously" segment, they used quotes from previous seasons voiced over the shot of Dany looking angry at Missandei's execution. These are the quotes they used, in the order in which they were used:

Varys: "He has the better claim to the throne."
Cersei: "Every time a Targaryen is born, the gods flip a coin."

Barristan: "The Mad King gave his enemies the justice he thought they deserved."

Tyrion: "Children are not their fathers."

Olenna: "Be a dragon."

Jorah: "You have a gentle heart."

Aemon: "A Targaryen alone in the world is a terrible thing."

Viserys: "You don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"

[Misplaced]

And another thought: Varys was executed on the clifftop at Dragonstone, the same place where Melisandre said to him last season - "Oh I will return, dear Spider, one last time. I have to die in this strange country - just like you."

Fabulous stuff.

[stagmania]

Quote

"Our problem with this turn, aside from its rather dreary inevitability and how un-Game of Thrones that written-in-stone sort of plotting is, was how it was presented. Dany committed genocide after she got everything she wanted. The city had fallen, the people rang the bells, surrender was at hand. This was an absolutely terrible moment for the writers to have her snap and start killing people. Even worse, director Miguel Sapochnik made the choice to have her wordlessly go mad on camera, in a bit of painfully cliched facial acting complete with eye-twitches – and then never showed her again through the rest of the episode. Once Dany snapped, she stopped being a character and became a faceless force that all the other characters reacted to. She went from a person to an act of nature, leaving the audience with no choice but to watch her emotional downfall from afar, after having spent eight seasons by her side. What was Dany thinking or feeling as she murdered tens of thousands? Who knows? She’s CRAZY."

Good overview of the writing problems with this episode, while still giving props for the few things they did well. https://tomandlorenzo.com/2019/05/game-of-thrones-burns-it-all-down-after-eight-seasons/

[AshleyN]

On a positive note, I really liked the choice to have Arya as our POV character for the destruction of the city. She's a character who tends to be portrayed as untouchable and very rarely shows vulnerability, so it was a good way of emphasizing how devastating and hopeless the attack was (assassin skills aren't much help against falling buildings). Plus, it was a nice throwback to the earlier seasons where Arya served as our window into the lives of the common people and how they were suffering as a result of the Game of Thrones. And having Sandor be the one to convince her to choose life and humanity over revenge was a lovely final bow on one of the show's best relationships.

[shrewd.buddha]

51 minutes ago, benteen said:

Again, though, this all goes back to GRRM losing interest and never finishing the books. 

There are news stories floating around today that say GRRM has finished the books. I believe a release date has  been announced for the sixth.
Who knows for sure, tho.

I have suspected that GRRM might not have been very motivated to finish the books -- providing D&D with more source material to hack into pop culture pieces and take credit for. 
Left to their own devices D&D have demonstrated their lack of storytelling skills ... unless subverting expectations and shock-for-the-sake-of-shock are considered to be the current standard of quality. 
Maybe GRRM is as crafty as some of his characters (as they were once upon a time).
It seems somewhat obvious that D&D are writing to best serve the actors, not the characters they are portraying - and they have been very much swayed by what they think the audience wants.

Edited May 13, 2019 by shrewd.buddha

[Conotocarious]

As much as I was disappointed by many things in this episode I sure liked Drogon emerging from the shadows to roast Varys. 

That was extremely badass. 

[Scaeva]

8 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

You mean the Targaryen thing? I've read for years people suspect he is a Targ. The way the dragons reacted to him, how much Tywin despised him, etc...I think it would be a stupid twist at this point. I was just playing with the idea of Dany being unable to.burn someone other than the Night King.

While it is very possible that Tyrion will be revealed to be a Targaryen in the books, I agree that the show probably isn't going to go there. I don't believe the TV series laid down any groundwork for that. IIRC unlike the books it was never mentioned in the TV show that the Mad King lusted after Joanna Lannister.

[Maximum Taco]

8 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Wow, I really have forgotten the books if Tyrion and Jaime still don't love each other.

Other than that incident, Jaime was the only person in his family who had always been very kind to him.

You mean the incident where the person he loved, and who genuinely loved him back was gang raped, and then he was coerced into raping her himself? That incident?

Yeah, Tyrion hates his whole family in the books (justifiably), but it's not that simple. He's a conflicted character. The most telling moment is in ADwD, Tyrion has a dream where he's a two headed giant fighting in a Westerosi battle with Barristan the Bold (who is still alive in the books) and Bittersteel (founder of the Golden Company) for allies, obviously he's fighting for Dany here (or possibly Aegon.) His father leads the enemy army and Tyrion kills him, then Tyrion hacks at Jaime's face until it's a ruin. One of his heads laughs as he slaughters his brother, and the other one weeps. 

He wants to love and forgive his brother for the kindnesses he's done for him. He hates him for the cruelties he's done to him and he can't get over either. 

Here's the thing though, Jaime isn't a good brother, he doesn't protect Tyrion from Cersei or their father, and when one of them presses him he goes along with their cruelties. Tyrion is just so emotionally abused by everyone else that he latches onto Jaime for the small kindnesses he does for him. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by Maximum Taco