S08.E05: The Bells

[Timetoread]

1 minute ago, MichaelaRae said:

Yeah, I think Tyrion's speech to Jaime was pretty clear that he wasn't about saving Cersei, he was about saving the city. And that he also knew that his actions would be likely to sign his own death warrant.

As well they should have been.  Why isn't he dead yet?

[Bianca Castafiore]

25 minutes ago, TaylorBruh25 said:

Uh, so to be clear I’ve just finished binging the show in the last two months. So, if there’s something I’m missing here inform me, but, how did... anyone think this was going to end differently? 

While Dany was always very much humane, power corrupts. She stood by back in S5 or so when they were doing Gladiator, she’s killed people BECAUSE they wouldn’t kneel, not lock em up, killed them. Then when this season started and she was very much concerned with Jon’s name to the point she keeps talking as if she’s ready to kill Sansa? Nobody thought this was happening? NOBODY? Like, I understand not wanting your favorite character to go down this road but come on they’ve been foreshadowing it for quite some time. 

   I’m not going to defend how they killed Cersei or how they’ve protected the character the whole series pretty much, but them destroying the whole place like that was pretty much where I seen this season going. I’m curious to hear how everyone else thought it should’ve ended though? 

Just wanna say that I agree with you 100%. I had my issues with the episode but not with the Dany part.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Bianca Castafiore

[Leroux]

48 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

Yep. And "No one" is exactly who is going to take her out next week.  Mark my words!

I sure hope so.  Somebody has to, just might well be Arya to save her family. 

Arya will have to save Sansa and probably Bran as well.

God knows Jon won't move a finger except to kiss Daenerys' feet. 

[sumiregusa]

3 minutes ago, sumiregusa said:

I really want everyone here who seems to have seen the writing on the wall with Daenerys going crazy to just stop acting like vindicated experts and pay attention to Emilia Clarke's interviews following the show. Let me know if you still think you always believed she would end up this way because I can guarantee you that she doesn't agree. 

Adding what I actually thought of this episode: I hated it. This show is fanfiction trash. There. I'm done now.

Edited May 13, 2019 by sumiregusa

[Timetoread]

Just now, Leroux said:

I sure hope so.  Somebody has to, just might well be Arya to save her family. 

Arya will have to save Sansa and probably Bran as well.

God knows Jon won't move a finger except to kiss Daenerys' feet. 

And when that happens, who is running the Kingdoms?  Jon, who is another Targaryan?  Yeah, that's going to work out well.  Ask Ghost about his loyalty to his subjects.

[Sentient Meat]

Just now, sumiregusa said:

Adding what I actually thought of this episode: I hated it. There. I'm done now.

If you were referring to me, I don't consider myself a vindicated expert.  I haven't enjoyed the last two episodes... this one had a couple nice moments but still not great.

I only said that the madness has been alluded to throughout the series.

The season still feels rushed like Boardwalk Empire's last season.

[Kanner]

2 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

I don't understand why Tyrion was spared the Dracarys treatment since he's the one who blabbed the big secret to Varys.

I think Tyrion was spared because he wasn’t actively trying to use the information. He told Varys but that was it. So once again he got another chance. Varys was spreading the news. 

[Drogo]

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. 

[Bryce Lynch]

56 minutes ago, The Companion said:

I am sorry, but I just don't see why people are so surprised that the woman who barely flinched when her brother was killed and who has never shown herself to be be particular interested in diplomacy or mercy decided to burn it all down. This was conquest. We didn't exactly hear stories of kindness and mercy from Robert Baratheon. We haven't seen a lot of kindness and mercy from those with power in the show. How is this a surprise? Hell, she told us at the beginning she didn't have love, all she had was fear. 

I enjoyed it. I am happy Arya made it and loved the disbelief at the horse out of nowhere. I am only disappointed by Cersei's end. I wanted more vengeance.

Her brother had just threatened to kill her and her unborn baby.  To compare that situation to her roasting thousands of innocent civilians after the battle was already won is insane 

[Otherkate]

1 minute ago, Sentient Meat said:

If you were referring to me, I don't consider myself a vindicated expert.  I haven't enjoyed the last two episodes... this one had a couple nice moments but still not great.

I only said that the madness has been alluded to throughout the series.

The season still feels rushed like Boardwalk Empire's last season.

I hope the poster wasn't referring to me either. Rather, I feel like the one weirdo who didn't hate the way it went. Also, I don't read any interviews with the actors, I'm just going on what I've personally seen and felt while watching and - recently - rewatching the show. 

I agree, as well, this season has been way too rushed and it pisses me off. 

[sumiregusa]

1 minute ago, Sentient Meat said:

If you were referring to me, I don't consider myself a vindicated expert.  I haven't enjoyed the last two episodes... this one had a couple nice moments but still not great.

I only said that the madness has been alluded to throughout the series.

The season still feels rushed like Boardwalk Empire's last season.

I wasn't calling anyone out by name. There's been numerous people saying the same shit. Alluding to it by having characters saying it for the sake of being a plot device and having little to no evidence to confirm it doesn't count as anything to me, begging everyone's pardon. 

Fully agreed on Boardwalk Empire though. I loved that show with everything in me and they did it dirty.

[TaylorBruh25]

25 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

Because most of us haven't been binging.  We've been watching with years between seasons.  This was the upsetting that this show began with.  Then once the Red Wedding happened they lulled everyone into thinking good guys might win and redemption was possible because heroes/heroines to kill were thin on the ground.  But now we are back to no happy endings.

Frankly. I don't get the surprise over Jamie choosing Cersei in the end.  Its the second time he's gone on a redemption journey with Brienne and then chose Cersei.

Well, remember there might be a happy ending, we still have the finale. It’s just Dany and her army may not be part of the heroes who win. 

   Now, I sort of agree on Jamie, they sort of flipped his arc in the penultimate episode but that’s also realistic, sometimes people can climb so far but ultimately fall right back down that hill. It’s not my favorite choice as I like Jamie but again I feel it was not a terrible writing choice. 

[dramachick]

12 minutes ago, sumiregusa said:

I really want everyone here who seems to have seen the writing on the wall with Daenerys going crazy to just stop acting like vindicated experts and pay attention to Emilia Clarke's interviews following the show. Let me know if you still think you always believed she would end up this way because I can guarantee you that she doesn't agree. 

Emilia is entitled to her opinion.

Danerys' true self was revealed when Khal Drogo killed her brother with that burning gold crown. The only thing she said was that he wasn't a dragon. No tears for the only family she had left. Just an observation that he wasn't fire proof.

Edited May 13, 2019 by dramachick

[Sentient Meat]

3 minutes ago, sumiregusa said:

I wasn't calling anyone out by name. There's been numerous people saying the same shit. Alluding to it by having characters saying it for the sake of being a plot device and having little to no evidence to confirm it doesn't count as anything to me, begging everyone's pardon. 

Fully agreed on Boardwalk Empire though. I loved that show with everything in me and they did it dirty.

I always liked Dany... but similar to Jon, I always thought of her as a trope more than a fully fleshed out character.  Her character almost feels like one of those child stars whose existence was warped by an abnormal childhood.  I've rooted for her throughout the show, but I've never thought she'd end up on the throne.  I still think it will be Sansa, Arya, or Tyrion.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Sentient Meat

[Bryce Lynch]

Last week, 1 scorpion took out a dragon with no problem.  This week, a dragon takes out dozens of scorpions, while flying as low or lower than the two dragons flew last week, with no problem.

Even Orson Lannister could figure out that this makes zero sense.

The writing in this episode, and really since the end of Season 6, was mind bogglingly bad.  

[The Companion]

57 minutes ago, Jewlmc said:

I think the "barely flinching"  had to do with her brother being an abusive sack of shit. But, whatever.

I didn't say he didn't deserve it. The point was her reaction, which was basically that he wasn't a dragon. It felt satisfying when it was against the bad guys, but the point is she has always been ruthless and sure of her destiny.

30 minutes ago, Otherkate said:

You are not the only one. I started rewatching season 1 last week and I'm not surprised by this from Dany at all. I think, for me, I was always on her side because of who she was up against, but she always had a very unsettling response to seeing her enemies vanquished. Now she's going up against people I like and it's a total mindfuck. I'm enjoying this in a masochistic sort of way because I'm on her side in so many ways, but she is clearly in the wrong. She was betrayed by Jon and Tyrion and, coupled with everything else, who wouldn't lose it? I do think it was way too rushed though. WAY too rushed. But, for me, it's not out of left field at all. 

This. 

[Bryce Lynch]

4 minutes ago, dramachick said:

Emilia is entitled to her opinion.

Danerys' true self was revealed when Khal Drogo killed her brother with that burning gold crown. The only thing she said was that he wasn't a dragon. No tears for the only family she had left. Just an observation that he wasn't fire proof.

Her brother had just threatened to murder her and her unborn child.  He was a monster,  not an innocent woman or child, much less 100,000 innocent women and children.  

Edited May 13, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[hypnotoad]

Quote

Fuck a happy ending.

I have never expected a happy ending. Never. I learned that from the moment Ned's head was lopped off. What I expected was something better written. Something that made sense and laid a lot more groundwork.

But whateverpants, one more episode and I can let it go.

[CeeBeeGee]

HAAAAAATED this episode. Once you realized that D&D were determined to fasttrack Dan's Mad Queen arc (reminder: it took Aerys a full twenty years after he ascended the throne to go mad), this was entirely predictable. Also--people who "go nuts" don't methodically strafe the city block by block by block. They're usually a little more emotional and explosive than that--and heck, you'd think they might decided to take out the Red Keep entirely where Cersei is, before going after the innocent civilians.

D&D can film spectacle, absolutely, but they don't know how to hire good writers (and WOMEN writers) and respect character arcs. This was garbage. This was "I wanna shock you because I can" garbage. I am SO sad and disappointed. 7 and a half seasons of a truly great show undone by two episodes so far. 

Will never watch another D&D show again. Spectacle is great, yes, but not at the expense of good writing. They had it in their hands and they botched it completely.

[sumiregusa]

4 minutes ago, dramachick said:

Emilia is entitled to her opinion.

Danerys' true self was revealed when Khal Drogo killed her brother with that burning gold crown. The only thing she said was that he wasn't a dragon. No tears for the only family she had left. Just an observation that he wasn't fire proof.

Emilia is definitely entitled to her opinion, as is anyone. She knows the character just about as good or better than anyone else. You're free to disagree with her assessment but that's just your choice to make I guess.

Also you can't really compare anything that happened with Viserys to anything happening now, sorry to say. He was fixing to kill her and her unborn child. He'd been abusing her all their lives. You don't root for Viserys in this story. You just don't.

[Raachel2008]

37 minutes ago, Otherkate said:

She was betrayed by Jon and Tyrion and, coupled with everything else, who wouldn't lose it? I do think it was way too rushed though. WAY too rushed. But, for me, it's not out of left field at all. 

Jon didn't betray Dany. He was upfront with her that he was going to tell his siblings about being a Targaryen. He never lied to her. 

And Tyrion had a point. He beatryed her later, when he set Jaime free.

[Drogo]

2 minutes ago, dramachick said:

Danerys' true self was revealed when Khal Drogo killed her brother with that burning gold crown. The only thing she said was that he wasn't a dragon. No tears for the only family she had left. Just an observation that he wasn't fire proof.

Fuck Viserys Targaryen. 

[Chris24601]

This didn't come from nowhere. If it had I wouldn't have been able to discuss the whole Shadow King aspect for weeks now and call up numerous references across the seasons hinting to this.

And I've skirted around it in previous threads because calling it by its name would have instantly put people off, but as I mentioned previously, there are two types of Shadow King; Jon has been one type; the Impotent King (but in seeing the slaughter is going to be moved to take up the role of True King because while he doesn't WANT to be king, he sees now that he NEEDS to be in order to protect people from things like this happening), but I'd only ever called Dany by the generic Shadow King title, not name for the specific manifestation...

The Tyrant. Dany has always been the Tyrant. She's fought it for years, but its always been where her story was headed.

And the Tyrant masks their insecurity in their own power with grandiose titles and, most importantly, massive displays of power meant to instill terror.

From the moment Dany said "Let it be Fear" everyone in King's Landing was her target. The surrender just meant she couldn't even pretend to mask it.

The Galactic Empire needed Alderaan, one of the Core Worlds of the galaxy, to burn as a sign of their unbridled power. They needed everyone under their thumb too terrified to even dare resist them.

Kings Landing was Dany's Alderaan. The biggest target on the map wiped out in maybe an hour. If only 10% of the city's population were killed we're looking at a death toll in the range of a HUNDRED THOUSAND people who had already surrendered.

Does anyone think it was limited to just 10%? 25%? 50%?

If she can't be loved, she's decided to be so feared that no one will ever dare question her authority... or that of her masked stormtroopers in black armor who slaughter surrendered people and innocents on her command or of her horde of murderous pillaging and raping horsemen as she burns innocents alive from the back of a great black dragon.

How much more crystal clear does it need to be?

GRRM gave this ending to D&D to write their show with and its crystal clear in retrospect... the entire point of Dany's arc has been to see the character arc of THE VILLAIN going from Nobody to Nightmare right alongside the protagonists... disguised by sympathetic moments and asshole victims at first, but becoming ever more obvious as the seasons wore on.

Let's not forget that her first victim was a slave who killed her master and that Dany had her burned alive. Everything she's ever done since has been about acquiring the power she'd need to conquer a land she'd never set foot in her life because she felt it was owed to her.

It honestly feels like a giant psychology experiment... how hard would it be to get the audience to root for the villain? How long would they keep defending her even as her actions got even more extreme?

And of the characters in the show, Sansa was the one who saw it clearly and decided to do something about it. Then again, she's been the one in closest regular vicinity to psychopaths. She learned to recognize the signs.

Dany had already ignored her suggestion to rest the troops. Rhaeghal and Missandie would have died anyway. Jon would have still refused her sexual advances. "Let it be Fear" would have still been Dany's command. The ONLY thing Sansa telling Tyrion changed was giving Varys the feeling he had an option other a woman teetering on the edge of unending rage.

Now its left to Jon, Arya and Tyrion to find a way to stop the Tyrant before its too late.

[rmontro]

Just now, Drogo said:

Fuck Viserys Targaryen. 

Completely agree, FFS Viserys had just threatened to kill her (and Drogo's) unborn child.  Do people really expect her to cry tears over him?

[HeySandyStrange]

15 minutes ago, dramachick said:

Emilia is entitled to her opinion.

Danerys' true self was revealed when Khal Drogo killed her brother with that burning gold crown. The only thing she said was that he wasn't a dragon. No tears for the only family she had left. Just an observation that he wasn't fire proof.

Her brother was also a huge, abusive asshole to her , had been her whole life, basically sold her like a piece of meat to a man with a brutal reputation, all to further his own ambitions, and threatened her and her child's life. Up until that point she had still tried to be a decent sister to him, but abuse can numb people.

Edited May 13, 2019 by HeySandyStrange

[Paws]

Quote

Well, remember there might be a happy ending, we still have the finale. It’s just Dany and her army may not be part of the heroes who win.

If you think this has a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention— Ramsay Bolton

[Wulfsige]

Without Missandei to spout Dany’s titles she had to attempt them herself. They were truncated, perhaps she couldn’t remember them all.

My favourite line was ‘Fucking die’. Probably because it sums up how I feel about the whole show.

[dramachick]

1 minute ago, Paws said:

If you think this has a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention— Ramsay Bolton

It always goes back to that.

[WatchrTina]

So . . . Kings Landing is pretty much wrecked at this point.  Whoever rules after this is going to want a nicer castle than the smoldering pile of rubble formerly known as the "Red Keep."

Let's see, where is there a nearby castle that is big enough to handle everyone who used to live and work in the Red Keep . . . perferably a castle whose owners were wiped out by the explosion of the Great Sept?  I know . . . Highgarden!

Bronn is going to be so pissed.

Edited May 20, 2019 by WatchrTina

[spaceghostess]

1 hour ago, dbell1 said:

I'm so mad I don't even know where to begin right now. This is not the show I've watched for eight years. Is Dany so insane that she would burn children? That's not the character we've seen.

 

IKR? This is the woman who locked up her other two dragons after Drogon burnt up ONE child and took off. But now she's a mad psycho who doesn't care about hundreds/thousands of them.

[lmsweb]

I feel like this whole thread is going to be split down the middle with those who hated it and those who didn't.

I do want to point out though that Dany gained both the Unsullied and the Dothraki by fire and blood. She reneged on her deal with the slaver who sold her the Unsullied and had him burned and the other slavers killed by her new Unsullied army. Whether you agree or not that slavery=bad, it was an acceptable practice in that area and she blew shit up to get her army. Same goes for the Dothraki - yes, I can hear you saying "but the Khals were a bunch of misogynistic assholes who wanted to lock her up with the other widows" but AGAIN - acceptable practice for that group of people. How did she change it and gain all the Khalasars? Fire and blood.

She wanted to break the wheel. She just decided to take a whole city with it, though.

Added: I've seen several people refer to Jon as a Targ. John is Targ/Stark, and looks nothing like a Targ, at that. Dany is Targ/Targ = both her parents were Targs, and we've seen what brother/sister offspring can result in - Exhibit A - Joffrey. Exhibit B - Viserys. Exhibit C - Dany.

[jay741982]

56 minutes ago, kieyra said:

Jon didn’t turn his back on her. He told her she was his queen and that he loved her. He didn’t try to talk her out of roasting Varys. He just didn’t want to have sex with his aunt. Not sure this rates the whole Dresden routine on a million innocents.

(Note: I blame the writers for not convincing me that Dany’s hurt feelings justified the nuclear option. I don’t “hate” fictional characters the way some people, for example, hate Sansa.)

I have to amend and say in Dani's mind it was Jon basically Betraying her  I perfectly understand Jon not wanting to fuck his Aunt and of course he did stand beside her decisions until her character assasination by D&D tonight. 

[Drogo]

4 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

So . . . Kings Landing is pretty much wrecked at this point.

It's mostly an improvement, curb appeal-wise. .

Property values in KL have skyrocketed since 10pm Eastern.

[Otherkate]

15 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Jon didn't betray Dany. He was upfront with her that he was going to tell his siblings about being a Targaryen. He never lied to her. 

And Tyrion had a point. He beatryed her later, when he set Jaime free.

I was unclear in my initial phrasing. She felt she had been betrayed by Jon and Tyrion. Her closest advisors/friends now that Jorah was gone. This was a devastating blow to her. 

And if Jon couldn’t love her the way that he had before... If even that had changed what on earth chance was there that the people would suddenly love her? The whole thing was shattering. 

10 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

This didn't come from nowhere. If it had I wouldn't have been able to discuss the whole Shadow King aspect for weeks now and call up numerous references across the seasons hinting to this.

And I've skirted around it in previous threads because calling it by its name would have instantly put people off, but as I mentioned previously, there are two types of Shadow King; Jon has been one type; the Impotent King (but in seeing the slaughter is going to be moved to take up the role of True King because while he doesn't WANT to be king, he sees now that he NEEDS to be in order to protect people from things like this happening), but I'd only ever called Dany by the generic Shadow King title, not name for the specific manifestation...

The Tyrant. Dany has always been the Tyrant. She's fought it for years, but its always been where her story was headed.

And the Tyrant masks their insecurity in their own power with grandiose titles and, most importantly, massive displays of power meant to instill terror.

From the moment Dany said "Let it be Fear" everyone in King's Landing was her target. The surrender just meant she couldn't even pretend to mask it.

The Galactic Empire needed Alderaan, one of the Core Worlds of the galaxy, to burn as a sign of their unbridled power. They needed everyone under their thumb too terrified to even dare resist them.

Kings Landing was Dany's Alderaan. The biggest target on the map wiped out in maybe an hour. If only 10% of the city's population were killed we're looking at a death toll in the range of a HUNDRED THOUSAND people who had already surrendered.

Does anyone think it was limited to just 10%? 25%? 50%?

If she can't be loved, she's decided to be so feared that no one will ever dare question her authority... or that of her masked stormtroopers in black armor who slaughter surrendered people and innocents on her command or of her horde of murderous pillaging and raping horsemen as she burns innocents alive from the back of a great black dragon.

How much more crystal clear does it need to be?

GRRM gave this ending to D&D to write their show with and its crystal clear in retrospect... the entire point of Dany's arc has been to see the character arc of THE VILLAIN going from Nobody to Nightmare right alongside the protagonists... disguised by sympathetic moments and asshole victims at first, but becoming ever more obvious as the seasons wore on.

Let's not forget that her first victim was a slave who killed her master and that Dany had her burned alive. Everything she's ever done since has been about acquiring the power she'd need to conquer a land she'd never set foot in her life because she felt it was owed to her.

It honestly feels like a giant psychology experiment... how hard would it be to get the audience to root for the villain? How long would they keep defending her even as her actions got even more extreme?

And of the characters in the show, Sansa was the one who saw it clearly and decided to do something about it. Then again, she's been the one in closest regular vicinity to psychopaths. She learned to recognize the signs.

Dany had already ignored her suggestion to rest the troops. Rhaeghal and Missandie would have died anyway. Jon would have still refused her sexual advances. "Let it be Fear" would have still been Dany's command. The ONLY thing Sansa telling Tyrion changed was giving Varys the feeling he had an option other a woman teetering on the edge of unending rage.

Now its left to Jon, Arya and Tyrion to find a way to stop the Tyrant before its too late.

YES. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by Otherkate

[FishyJoe]

So I guess the people of the North are just as bad as anyone. They will turn to rape and murder just like everyone else when opportunity presents itself. Now that I think about it, they probably gladly followed Ramsey.

And surprise, Cersei and Joffrey are no longer the worst. In a single day, Dany has become the worst. Congrats!

[Delete]

The cheesiest death award goes to Euron Greyjoy. The actor  is more suited for dinner theatre in Wales. 

And Jon Snow still doesn’t know what happened.

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, FishyJoe said:

So I guess the people of the North are just as bad as anyone. They will turn to rape and murder just like everyone else when opportunity presents itself. Now that I think about it, they probably gladly followed Ramsey.

And surprise, Cersei and Joffrey are no longer the worst. In a single day, Dany has become the worst. Congrats!

Honestly, they weren't about to only have darker skinned Dothraki doing the raping.

Also, another one of GRRM's things is that "yes, soldiers rape in war, they are doing it right now" so justified inclusion I think.

[Raachel2008]

19 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

This didn't come from nowhere. If it had I wouldn't have been able to discuss the whole Shadow King aspect for weeks now and call up numerous references across the seasons hinting to this.

And I've skirted around it in previous threads because calling it by its name would have instantly put people off, but as I mentioned previously, there are two types of Shadow King; Jon has been one type; the Impotent King (but in seeing the slaughter is going to be moved to take up the role of True King because while he doesn't WANT to be king, he sees now that he NEEDS to be in order to protect people from things like this happening), but I'd only ever called Dany by the generic Shadow King title, not name for the specific manifestation...

The Tyrant. Dany has always been the Tyrant. She's fought it for years, but its always been where her story was headed.

And the Tyrant masks their insecurity in their own power with grandiose titles and, most importantly, massive displays of power meant to instill terror.

From the moment Dany said "Let it be Fear" everyone in King's Landing was her target. The surrender just meant she couldn't even pretend to mask it.

The Galactic Empire needed Alderaan, one of the Core Worlds of the galaxy, to burn as a sign of their unbridled power. They needed everyone under their thumb too terrified to even dare resist them.

Kings Landing was Dany's Alderaan. The biggest target on the map wiped out in maybe an hour. If only 10% of the city's population were killed we're looking at a death toll in the range of a HUNDRED THOUSAND people who had already surrendered.

Does anyone think it was limited to just 10%? 25%? 50%?

If she can't be loved, she's decided to be so feared that no one will ever dare question her authority... or that of her masked stormtroopers in black armor who slaughter surrendered people and innocents on her command or of her horde of murderous pillaging and raping horsemen as she burns innocents alive from the back of a great black dragon.

How much more crystal clear does it need to be?

GRRM gave this ending to D&D to write their show with and its crystal clear in retrospect... the entire point of Dany's arc has been to see the character arc of THE VILLAIN going from Nobody to Nightmare right alongside the protagonists... disguised by sympathetic moments and asshole victims at first, but becoming ever more obvious as the seasons wore on.

Let's not forget that her first victim was a slave who killed her master and that Dany had her burned alive. Everything she's ever done since has been about acquiring the power she'd need to conquer a land she'd never set foot in her life because she felt it was owed to her.

It honestly feels like a giant psychology experiment... how hard would it be to get the audience to root for the villain? How long would they keep defending her even as her actions got even more extreme?

And of the characters in the show, Sansa was the one who saw it clearly and decided to do something about it. Then again, she's been the one in closest regular vicinity to psychopaths. She learned to recognize the signs.

Dany had already ignored her suggestion to rest the troops. Rhaeghal and Missandie would have died anyway. Jon would have still refused her sexual advances. "Let it be Fear" would have still been Dany's command. The ONLY thing Sansa telling Tyrion changed was giving Varys the feeling he had an option other a woman teetering on the edge of unending rage.

Now its left to Jon, Arya and Tyrion to find a way to stop the Tyrant before its too late.

What is a Shadow King?

[MVFrostsMyPie]

Arya would be a perfect candidate to donate her brain for research on the effects of CTE. 

How many concussions must she have gotten by now? 

[Solace247]

50 minutes ago, TaylorBruh25 said:

Uh, so to be clear I’ve just finished binging the show in the last two months. So, if there’s something I’m missing here inform me, but, how did... anyone think this was going to end differently? 

While Dany was always very much humane, power corrupts. She stood by back in S5 or so when they were doing Gladiator, she’s killed people BECAUSE they wouldn’t kneel, not lock em up, killed them. Then when this season started and she was very much concerned with Jon’s name to the point she keeps talking as if she’s ready to kill Sansa? Nobody thought this was happening? NOBODY? Like, I understand not wanting your favorite character to go down this road but come on they’ve been foreshadowing it for quite some time. 

Whether it was happening or not, here’s why it was unsatisfying: as soon as season 8 arrived you could see the manufacturing of it—from the very first. The Stark sisters, written much like they were the season before (with hard-lines that are over-the-top), the Northern Lords doing their usual thing, Jon being absolutely neutered in his discussions with both his sisters and with Danaerys, Danaerys hard-lining it (no realistic reaction to a relative—bullshit). These things, you could hand-wave as somewhat resembling logical reactions, in the beginning, if you enjoy heavy-lifting. After the Long Night(tm)? Those reactions were so manufactured they were spitting grease. 

This season has made me hate the Starks—if they’re not sitting in wheelchairs being useless during battles, they’re either bitchy or impotent in every discussion. Honestly, Dany can blow up the whole of Westeros for all I care. If the narrative isn’t gonna bother with nuance, why the hell should I question the morality of the characters? Valar Morghulis and Dracarys away!

[Paws]

13 minutes ago, Drogo said:

It's mostly an improvement, curb appeal-wise. .

Property values in KL have skyrocketed since 10pm Eastern.

Seems like the crossbow industry had been revitalized in KL.  Whoever takes the throne, if it’s still there, will likely be heavily influenced by lobbyists from Big Crossbow.

[SueB]

I too would like to offer condolences to those upset with how particular characters were ended.  I can see the rationalization behind EACH choice they made but that doesn't mean the characters were treated well.  And it sure seems like the ending was rushed in S8.  All build-up with a pyrrhic 'victory' that leaves no one satisfied.  What little I understand, this could be considered consistent with the 'war sucks' theme of the writers ... but that doesn't mean it made satisfying television.

One more week to see if they wrap it better.

Character thoughts:
- Dany didn't go mad.  And for that I'm grateful.  They didn't show her irrationale at all.  Instead they made it clear in her speech to Jon -- the people of Westros would NEVER love her so she'll burn it all down and the next generation will have a better life.  In short, she killed her enemies (including the populace) so that those outside of KL would fear her.  And in years to come they MAY appreciate the change she wrought.  Her look at Greyworm when she accepted the bells as a sign of surrender told me that she wasn't going to let it go at that.  If she let Cersei live, the war wouldn't be over.  So THAT was never going to happen.  When the bells rang; Cersei wasn't defeated.  Dany wanted to burn the old "Game of Thrones" to the ground and throw salt on the earth so nothing ever grows there.  I can see the rationale but the fatal flaw is that she thinks she gets to decide that.  That regular people's fate are less important than her vision for the future.  It's not a view Jon would ever get on board with.  And she knew it.  Which is why he and Ser Davos were not in the loop on the 'burn it all down' decision.  While I get that she has ALWAYS been a champion of "the little people"; she didn't see the people of Westros that way.  They rejected her in her mind.  Which means she decided to start over again.  It's not actually insane; it's ruthless and consistent with her sense of destiny.  I think Dany believes she's making a better world and although I disagree completely with her choice; I don't think she's insane for how went about it.  
- Jon Snow you know nothing.  Seriously.  Bless him for being loyal to both Dany and Sansa.  I think he realized Dany will kill him AND Sansa if they are obstacles.  Now that she has taken Kings Landing, Jon may realize he's an obstacle.  I'm glad he saved as many as he could.  
- Greyworm.  I don't know what to say.  I get that he was ready for the dracarys strategy.  Even eager for it.  But I also think that if his Queen had stood down, he would have followed her lead.  She clearly took a beat after the bells rang and then went scorched earth.  Greyworm followed suit.  
- Arya. Must be part cat because she could have died about 5 times in that episode.  I LOVED her parting words/relationship wtih "Sandor".  To me that was a very satisfying ending to that relationship.  
- The Hound. He got the biggest redemption story of anyone!  Took out his unnatural monster-brother in a fall to a fiery death.  Always was a stone cold bastard.  So very happy he turned Arya back from a pointless death.  I mourn him. 
- Cersei.  I despise the woman.  Her world view:
Like all villains, she thought she was righteously justified.  She was both evil incarnate and insane.  I blame Tywin for warping her but she made evil after evil choices.  I'm so glad Tywin got killed on the shitter.  I'd rather she had been burnt to a crisp but I like that in the end she realized she was COMPLETELY outmatched by Danys.  Dying in the arms of her lover by a crushed building was too nice for her but I accept that she knew she was completely defeated.
- Jamie was always one of my favorites.  I SOOOO wanted his redemption.  And yet I understand how, despite having that taste of heaven with Brienne, he chose to burn in Hell with Cersei. He was always addicted to her.  And like an addict, he chose death by his drug of choice rather than abandon it.  It's kinda consistent with his own inner loyalty thing -- even tho Cersei did NOT deserve it.  Once he was stabbed, he was going into the building to save Cersei or die with her.  He knew he wasn't going to have a future with her.  He settled for going out together.  Kinda sappy on his part.  Kinda makes sense.
- Tyrion & Jamie together is the only part that made me cry.  Tyrion just collapses in Jamie's arms and I loved EVERY. SINGLE. SECOND.  They used Peter Dinklage's dimunitive status to good effect in that scene. *sniff*
- Tyrion was also still playing Chess (i.e. the Game of Thrones) when Danys is playing Risk. I'm surprised she didn't kill him.  She may still try.  But I admire him for wanting to save innocent lives.  I also liked his goodbye with Varys.
- Vary - had the most balls for a ball-less person that ever played the Game of Thrones.  His attempted coup was a long shot but I liked how gracefully he accepted his fate.
- Ser Davos is my favorite guy.  I need him, Arya, Jamie, and Sansa to live.  I love that he helped Tyrion, knowing it could get him killed, because he genuinely cares about people's lives.

Bottom Line:  I am not thrilled with the pyrrhic victory choice Danys made.  I totally get why people feel it was an unsatisfying choice for Danys but I can see how they built up to it (rather hastily) in S8.  I think she deserved better.  I'm glad Arya, Jon, and Ser Davos lived.  

PS. Someone go piss on Urine's corpse.  Or maybe let's have a scene of him getting eaten by vultures.  He died too easily. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by SueB

[TaurusRose]

1 hour ago, Sentient Meat said:

I don't get why people think the show is so misogynist.  Two of the three most likely to end up on the Iron Throne are women (Sansa/Arya) and they've alluded to the madness in the Targaryen family since the beginning of the show.  Dany is a tragic figure, but she has no support system, or family since Jon betrayed her so if that triggered her madness it makes sense.

Just because Dany says Jon betrayed her does not make it so.  In her mind Jon betrayed her.  But Jon never agreed not to tell his family about his real identity. And if Jon knows nothing (so tired of that stupid line) then neither does Dany.  She knew what kind of person Jon was. Presumably, that's one of the reasons she fell for him.  She knew nothing if she thought Jon would keep secrets from his Stark sibling/cousins.  And Jon's trust in Sansa was misplaced.  I get he thinks blood is thicker than water, but seriously, Jon.  How many times does Sansa have stab you in the back before you put her down?  

[wirebitersm]

1 hour ago, dizzyd said:

Why does everyone think Cersei and Jaime are dead? They had rubble fall around them. So did Arya. I say till I see the bodies, they're alive.  No way the 2nd and 3rd credited actors were ended like that and didn't make it to the last episode. 

I’m telling myself the rubble fell in such a way to not kill Cersei and she is now trapped in the arms of her dead brother. She will slowly die of dehydration.

[Delete]

1 minute ago, Solace247 said:

Whether it was happening or not, here’s why it was unsatisfying: as soon as season 8 arrived you could see the manufacturing of it—from the very first. The Stark sisters, written much like they were the season before (with hard-lines that are over-the-top), the Northern Lords doing their usual thing, Jon being absolutely neutered in his discussions with both his sisters and with Danaerys, Danaerys hard-lining it (no realistic reaction to a relative—bullshit). These things, you could hand-wave as somewhat resembling logical reactions, in the beginning, if you enjoy heavy-lifting. After the Long Night(tm)? Those reactions were so manufactured they were spitting grease. 

This season has made me hate the Starks—if they’re not sitting in wheelchairs being useless during battles, they’re either bitchy or impotent in every discussion. Honestly, Dany can blow up the whole of Westeros for all I care. If the narrative isn’t gonna bother with nuance, why the hell should I question the morality of the characters? Valar Morghulis and Dracarys away!

I no longer give a flying fuck who rules the extra crispy kingdoms. 

[spaceghostess]

2 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I loved the episode because in reality people don’t act the way you want them to.  

I’ve worked with people who’ve done 180s because bad shit happened to them, so I know it happens in real life, so this episode didn’t bother me at all.

I am curious for all who hated it, what would you have preferred?

I've been banging on with my complaints for the last week on the Book and Spec & Spoilers threads and I'm so bummed right now, I don't have the energy to elaborate regarding the numerous options I would have preferred over this shitshow. Long story short, I would have preferred for the writing of the last, I don't know, three to four seasons to have competently laid groundwork for Dany's turning into a manaical mass murderer. The fact that she descends from an inbred crazy isn't enough for me to believe this (nor is the slavers' crucifixions or the Tarly BBQ). Some finesse in storytelling, rather than ham-fisted character assassination is what I'd have preferred.

[jay741982]

42 minutes ago, dramachick said:

Emilia is entitled to her opinion.

Danerys' true self was revealed when Khal Drogo killed her brother with that burning gold crown. The only thing she said was that he wasn't a dragon. No tears for the only family she had left. Just an observation that he wasn't fire proof.

Yeah she shouldve had sympathy for her POS Brother who threatened to kill her and her child 

[RealReality]

I was disappointed.  Not in Dany per se, because she was always going to turn into the mad queen.

But WTF with Arya being talked out of killing cersei after it's been her life's mission for how many years?  Sandor should have gone into inspirational speaking, because huh?

I hate that cersei wasn't killed by anyone but was mostly in the wrong place at the wrong time.  I'm glad that she died knowing that she had lost her kindgom and that she died desperately wanting to live.  But she deserved a much harsher end.  I was hoping that Arya had faceless manned into Jaime and he has died on the beach.

I'm sad about varys, his goals were noble.  Tyrion may have felt he HAD to say something, but I disagree.

Jon Snow has said, ceaselessly, that he doesn't want the crown.  There is no one else that would have a better claim.  So varys isn't much of a threat if Jon Snow won't take the iron throne.

Tyrion didn't need to tell Dany about varys in order to keep the secret about Jon Snow...it's clearly no longer a secret whether varys lived or died.

Tyrion's end game is peace, and he is willing to break the rules regarding freeing Jaime to further the cause of peace.  If peace is the ultimate goal and worth risking danys wrath, than he should have seen the fact that she was becoming tyrannical and at least, like varys, considered other options.

However, the cinematography, as another poster said....was spectacular and beautiful.

[ShellsandCheese]

58 minutes ago, Sentient Meat said:

They could end up with a Northern and Southern kingdom controlled by Sansa and Tyrion.

All I know is that a traditional alpha male seems unlikely to be the hero of the story.

Tyrion has shown himself to be a complete and utter fool. He should not be rewarded with a position of power. He’s also a Lannister, son of Tywin and brother to Cersei - oh and he was hand to the Targaryen that just destroyed King’s Landing. People would have to be damn foolish to listen to him. 

[Solace247]

1 hour ago, UNOSEZ said:

If I had one more request its for Arya to have a sit down with Jon and go... "See... You see what I was talking about" I just need her to lay into him for a bit for vouching for her so wholeheartedly 

We all know that if the writing was half-way honest and consistent-Arya would have been all about the dragon queen and her dragons, but alas, we write from the ending backwards in these latter seasons. Don’t you all know?—Sansa saw it all coming. Smh.