S08.E05: The Bells

[Raachel2008]

11 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

I think this kind of a crap argument. Dany’s ancestors may have killed some of Sansa’s ancestors; people that neither of them knew. But Sansa has no problem with Tyrion? A person who’s living family is responsible for the deaths of Sansa’s mother, father, older brother, younger brother, the crippling of another brother, and resulted in her sister training to be an assassin. If Sansa should have an issue with anyone based on family ties, it would be Tyrion not Dany. 

The real problem was none of that but the fact that Jon had bent the knee, thus ruining any chance of an independent North. Because everybody knew that Dany wasn't going to give up the North. Dany knew. Tyrion knew. Sansa knew. Every single lord knew that. Jon himself knew that but he chose to sacrifice a possible North independence in order to save the North from the NK.

And the thing Sansa wants the most is the North, but a North where she is a 100% safe and that was only ever going to happen if the North wasn't ruled by anyone whose name isn't Stark - preferably her, though I think Sansa  would live with Jon as king, because she knows he would never screw her.

[Coxfires]

43 minutes ago, phoenix780 said:

I like this episode the more I think about it. I decided to believe that Dany didn't go mad, exactly, she just made a choice after seeing that the masses weren't cheering her after the city surrendered. I also think Arya died several times and was brought back by the lord of light, as was the white horse she rode off on. I kind of like that they've left room for me to read things into it, at least until the finale. 

It's not the story I was hoping for, but I don't think it's being told badly. Except for the smallness of Westeros- they get around it very quickly, even those not on a dragon, and that's weird. 

For me it is the contrary 

I like the themes they went for but hate the execution.

I liked that the Others weren't the real threat because mankind will never be able to set aside selfishness and assemble against a greater existential issue, or maybe temporarily only.

I liked that they showed how power corrupts you through Danny. How many politiciens start thinking they will do better than the previous ones just to end up as rotten in the end?

I liked that they showed that sometimes you just can't get out of a toxic relationship / addiction despite your best efforts.

I liked that Arya killed the NK and not Jon because this was too Harry Potter/Luke Skywalker/Chosen one for me 

BUT: when your show is GOT, you just can't get there while rushing, brushing logic aside, dumbing your characters and tweaking them so they fit your plot. You don't gloss over necessary pièces of dialogue and characterisation. You don't rob your audience of Jon processing who he is and his sisters actual reactions to it. You don't have Jamie sleeping with Brienne just to treat her like trash. You don't get to Deanerys snapping in 1,5 episodes. You don't dispatch the NK in 1 episodes while his WW polish their nails watching him slooooowly walk to Bran. You don't kill a dragon because Danny is suddenly myopic, happily flying while she knows Cersei is waiting for her.

They could have had all major plot points be the same and that would have been fine had they organically reached them. But NO! They wanted to be done with it so what should have been 2 seasons was reduced to 6 episodes and that left me with a bad taste. When you are a show that brought back event TV, you can't settle with being just OK, you need to be great and this season definitely is not.

[WatchrTina]

18 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

If Sansa should have an issue with anyone based on family ties, it would be Tyrion not Dany. 

It's clear Sansa was horrified when she was told she had to marry Tyrion . . . that she not only had to marry a dwarf, she had to marry into that horrible family.  But Tyrion was kind to her.  She knew he was forced into it as much as she was.  And he did NOT try to consummate the marriage, which surprised Sansa.  So yes, Sansa has good reason to be suspicious of all Lannisters (including those masquerading as Baratheons), but she also has reasons to be grateful to Tyrion and, yes, to trust him.

[Raachel2008]

5 minutes ago, Coxfires said:

When you are a show that brought back event TV, you can't settle with being just OK, you need to be great and this season definitely is not.

Which is why I don't understand why HBO settled for everything D&D wanted, ie. two last seasons with only six episodes. The cast would have done the "extra" eight episodes, HBO would have paid them. I wonder what kind of contract D&D had that HBO didn't push for new showrunners or to have them in another capacity with the bulk of the work with other people.

Sigh. I can only think how much  better the show could have been with all that "extra" time.

[Daisy]

37 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

I think this kind of a crap argument. Dany’s ancestors may have killed some of Sansa’s ancestors; people that neither of them knew. But Sansa has no problem with Tyrion? A person who’s living family is responsible for the deaths of Sansa’s mother, father, older brother, younger brother, the crippling of another brother, and resulted in her sister training to be an assassin. If Sansa should have an issue with anyone based on family ties, it would be Tyrion not Dany. 

And she did, for the long time.
who she was forced to marry. 
who did everything in his power to save her from being tortured, beaten, and whatever Joffrery wanted to do to her. She learned to get to know him. she also doesn't trust (didn't trust) Jaime, fyi. 

Dany came and all she knew is the history, on top of the fact that Jon left "a king" and came back, giving up everything that they worked for, to someone they don't know, and don't trust putting their family, (and the north) in a serious situation, and it's not like Dany was all warmth and sunshine and Sansa shut her down.  they were equally passive aggressively bitchy towards one another.

28 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Oh I agree, I think that Sansa had the right to be suspicious, and was trying to protect her people in the North, who have already been put through so much. I think she brought up lots of good points about why they should be wary of Dany and why her military needed some time to regroup and worrying about what happens after the dead are dealt with. I think some of her reasons not to trust her are dumb (like saying she isnt one of us. Like, huh?) but there were some reasons to not welcome her with open arms instantly. My issue is that in retrospect, it was not just based around Sansa and her being worried about the future, it all seems to be in service to making Dany more isolated and miserable, and leading her to Mad Queen Dany. If they had more time to establish all of this, I would have been fine with Sansa and Dany having issues, but to me it all feels manipulative now. At the time, their issues worked fine for me, but now...

that's fair 🙂

[TaurusRose]

38 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

I think Sansa  would live with Jon as king, because she knows he would never screw her.

Perhaps, but could the same be said of her?  

[Nanrad]

I haven’t read all of the pages but I’ll say this:

Varys’ death was deserved. He committed treason by trying to get Jon to replace Dany on the throne. He blabbed the secret to other people and he was trying to poison her. He deserved to die. Dany warned him before that if he betrayed her trust again, she’d burn her. And that is consistent for rulers in that time: killing traitors.

Although it was Jon’s secret to tel; he betrayed Dany as well. He knew that Sansa didn’t like Dany and Dany flat out said do not two Sansa and what did he do? Tell Sansa. Sansa spread that secret so it could go as wide and far as possible, this undermining his queen.

Dany not reacting to Viserys getting his golden crown doesn’t prove she had hints of insanity. Viserys abused Dany her entire life, told her that he’d let a thousand men and horse rape her for the throne, and threatened to cut her unborn child out of her stomach. Him being her brother is irrelevant if he’s caused nothing, but pain and turmoil.

Dropping hints that she COULD BE mad and foreshadowing the possibility isn’t the same as building a character arc that proves it. We’ve seen more instances of Dany being far and just and going out of her way not to cause any innocents harm.

They did not earn Dany’s heel turn because we, the viewers, hadn’t reached a point where we thought “Dany might go mad.” A handful of people did, but most people did not and it isn’t due to lack of paying attention. Even those who suspected that this was a possibility have said this wasn’t earned. 

Dany’s heel turn is the most egregious and the biggest example of bad writing, but Varys is as well. He spent how many decades spying only to commit treason in broad daylight??? Arys shouldn’t had been in KL to begin with. I can’t imagine Cersei running away with her tail between her legs or globe get out like that. And Jaime doesn’t make any sense either even if you don’t include how he died.

Why did Euron want to be known as the one who killed Jaime? Who would verify this???

Also, the other reason this makes no sense is that, even if I am to believe that Dany went full blown mad and indiscriminately BBQ’d KL, why didn’t she care at all about going after Cersei? The woman who sent Euron to take down her second child/dragon. The woman who ordered Missandei to die in front of her?

Dany didn’t say she was going to take KL out root and stem, she said Cersei.

Even with Dany saying she’d rain down “fire and blood” on cities, it’s almost always been solely for her enemies. That’s it. Dany has shown restraint when innocents could be hurt. Even then, it’s both literal and hyperbolic. Dany wants to rain down fire and blood on her enemies not people who have nothing to do with her issue.

Regardless, Jon, sansa, Tyrion, and Varys ALSO hold responsibility for what happened. Especially those who thought she was going crazy, but then conspired behind her back and even tried to have her killed. Dany wasn’t paranoid, she was right. Everything she said would happen, happened and not bedside or anything she did.

[paigow]

Everything I know about GoT, I learned from The Dark Knight: 

Dany is the hero that Westeros [needs] [deserves] _______________ , while Jon is the hero that Westeros [needs] [deserves] ________________

Alternatively:

_________________  is the hero that Westeros needs, while ______________ is the hero that Westeros deserves.......

Edited May 16, 2019 by paigow

[Lady S.]

7 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Oh I agree, I think that Sansa had the right to be suspicious, and was trying to protect her people in the North, who have already been put through so much. I think she brought up lots of good points about why they should be wary of Dany and why her military needed some time to regroup and worrying about what happens after the dead are dealt with. I think some of her reasons not to trust her are dumb (like saying she isnt one of us. Like, huh?) but there were some reasons to not welcome her with open arms instantly. My issue is that in retrospect, it was not just based around Sansa and her being worried about the future, it all seems to be in service to making Dany more isolated and miserable, and leading her to Mad Queen Dany. If they had more time to establish all of this, I would have been fine with Sansa and Dany having issues, but to me it all feels manipulative now. At the time, their issues worked fine for me, but now...

All that and there's a difference between being suspicious and starting a succession conflict which could end in someone's death because you don't want to get to know an outsider. Which is not to say that she made Varys try to poison Dany and get himself killed, but after all her time with Cersei and Littlefinger I don't think she needed Cersei to spell out "when you play the game of thrones, you win or you die" to get that any Jon v. Dany conflict for the throne could only end with one of them dead. And it's just her luck that the dead person isn't Jon because Dany's still in love with him and still wanted him to bone her after she knew the secret was out. It's not like Sansa knew or even feared this would happen either or else her looking forward to Cersei's death at the cost of thousands of innocents is pretty cold-blooded. She wasn't acting for the good of the realm like Varys, and she definitely wasn't thinking of Jon's own wishes or happiness. The best we can say is she was thinking of "the North" (though we didn't any northerners other than the Stark sisters still rejecting Dany in 8.04, just heaping more praise on Jon) but still let's acknowledge that she tried to set in motion events which would lead to a conflict to the death without knowing whether Dany deserved to die, with no guarantee that Jon wouldn't be the one who died, and knowing how Jon felt about the throne and about Dany.

Also it's stupid for Varys to think Jon was too weak to ever stand up to Dany as a co-ruler but still expect him to take a throne he didn't want over Dany's dead body. I'd say both Varys and Sansa owed it to their respective monarchs to suggest Jon demand his own share of power and/or use his secret as leverage for the North rather jumping straight to Jon must be the sole power in Westeros. 

[queenanne]

I grant these are valid points about Dany's choices being bad and/or evil - I spent the entire last half of the episode saying "Oh, that is how Jon gets the Iron Throne - Dany is Walter White!", but the "After the Episode" segment, convinced me that our showrunners are either delusional or projecting or worse, because they did nothing but justify Dany's behavior; while I'm simultaneously thinking "Guess they've settled that insanity coin toss, then!" 

I think some other choices were pretty bad as well, and arose because they were wedded to a certain outcome long ago - if the past two seasons weren't about Jaime growing into a good person, I don't know what they were; though on the bright side, if Brienne loses Jaime then Aria probably returns to Gendry - and while I understand that it's important for Aria to retain some humanity and that Sandor was probably correct in his judgment, Aria still deserved to get Cersei as a "kill".  I can see why all these things are more dramatically interesting.

But Dany, I'm not cool with, and I can't imagine myself ever getting cool with. 

They rang the bells.  They surrendered.  And they died.  In multiples. 

Dany put every one of her allies in a horrible place, where they were required to make horrible choices.  I just don't find myself seeing any upside to that.  It's basic military code 101.  The opposition surrendered.  Dany plowed on as if they never had.  I would even have been cool with her continuing on to incinerate Cersei, though of course that would have been ridiculously boring as a story and over in 30 seconds so I can understand why they didn't do that; but I don't see any good excuse for overriding a surrender other than bad temper and insanity, especially when Tyrion was begging for it from jump.

[Lady S.]

59 minutes ago, paigow said:

Everything I know about GoT, I learned from The Dark Knight: 

Dany is the hero that Westeros [needs] [deserves] _______________ , while Jon is the hero that Westeros [needs] [deserves] ________________

Alternatively:

_________________  is the hero that Westeros needs, while ______________ is the hero that Westeros deserves.......

Arya was the hero Westeros needed while the Night King was the king this shitty country deserved?

[Macbeth]

11 hours ago, phoenix780 said:

I like this episode the more I think about it. I decided to believe that Dany didn't go mad, exactly, she just made a choice after seeing that the masses weren't cheering her after the city surrendered.

Quote

The fact that nobody was cheering  her victory also contributed to her decision. As Tyrion said there are no slaves to be freed so no one would be lifting her in their arms calling her Mother. 

We didn't see the villagers rejoicing her return to her family's castle on Dragonstone. I am sure the villagers have their own horror stories of dealing with the Targs. 

It was nice she cried over Jorah's dead body. Of course she would have killed him in S5 - but luckily for Jorah - Tyrion talked her out of it. 

Tyrion pointed out it's not wise to execute those devoted to you    Of course she had already killed a devotee when he defied her orders. 

She has shown she will kill those devoted to her. The ones who are indifferent stood no chance. 

Edited May 16, 2019 by Macbeth

[Lady S.]

21 hours ago, screamin said:

Not to mention Mirri was a prophetess who foresaw that Dany's unborn son would be a vicious conqueror who would do to the world what Drogon had done to her people. (Either that, or the mistreatment of Mirri drove her mad and gave her delusions; same difference to Mirri). Mirri knew she would pay horribly for what she was doing, she still did it for what she considered the needs of the future, not just her revenge. I still find her a heroic figure.

I'm of the belief that the SWMtW was more likely Drogon or Dany herself. The dosh khaleen were the ones who foresaw that prophecy and Mirri would have known because Drogo bragged about it in front of her, claiming that his son, the SWMtW, was the source of Dany's fire. Many people have interpreted Mirri whole "when the sun sets in the east" spiel as a prophecy but I see no firm indication she actually meant it as anything than a poetic way of saying never, and her being a witch doesn't mean she also had Mel's seeing powers (which were far from perfect). Seeing as how Rhaego was never going to inherit his father's khalasar with Drogo dead before he was born, I'd say that Drogo's (justifiable) poisoning should have been enough. 

[Drogo]

23 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

I'd say that Drogo's (justifiable) poisoning should have been enough. 

[screamin]

37 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

I'm of the belief that the SWMtW was more likely Drogon or Dany herself. The dosh khaleen were the ones who foresaw that prophecy and Mirri would have known because Drogo bragged about it in front of her, claiming that his son, the SWMtW, was the source of Dany's fire. Many people have interpreted Mirri whole "when the sun sets in the east" spiel as a prophecy but I see no firm indication she actually meant it as anything than a poetic way of saying never, and her being a witch doesn't mean she also had Mel's seeing powers (which were far from perfect). Seeing as how Rhaego was never going to inherit his father's khalasar with Drogo dead before he was born, I'd say that Drogo's (justifiable) poisoning should have been enough. 

Maybe, but if Mirri believed the Stallion was a true prophecy (and why not, it's a magical universe) there's no reason to believe Dany's child couldn't fight his way back to his dad's old position and beyond once he grew up and fulfil it. I got the impression the Dothraki are upwardly mobile to good warriors that way.

Spoiler

In the books, IIRC, Dany ALSO has a vision (in the House of the Undying, I think?) of a young man who looks like a combination of herself and Drogo conquering and burning cities. It seems like there was a genuine alternative future of Dany's son growing up and being the Stallion that Mirri's action blocked - with consequences unpredictable to her, naturally).

Edited May 16, 2019 by screamin

[Constantinople]

2 hours ago, queenanne said:

I grant these are valid points about Dany's choices being bad and/or evil - I spent the entire last half of the episode saying "Oh, that is how Jon gets the Iron Throne - Dany is Walter White!", but the "After the Episode" segment, convinced me that our showrunners are either delusional or projecting or worse, because they did nothing but justify Dany's behavior

I was hoping for a Dany kind of forgot about the bells from Benioff in the Inside the Episode segment

[sumiregusa]

8 hours ago, Nanrad said:

Dropping hints that she COULD BE mad and foreshadowing the possibility isn’t the same as building a character arc that proves it. We’ve seen more instances of Dany being far and just and going out of her way not to cause any innocents harm.

They did not earn Dany’s heel turn because we, the viewers, hadn’t reached a point where we thought “Dany might go mad.” A handful of people did, but most people did not and it isn’t due to lack of paying attention. Even those who suspected that this was a possibility have said this wasn’t earned.

Agreed. This has been the most frustrating bit of recycled arguments in favor of D&D's catastrophically bad writing decisions -- the idea that being ruthless with your enemies and using dragons to exact justice means you're bound to go mad and smorc thousands of harmless civilians. We could probably go back and forth until the end of time (in fact it we probably have) about whether you agree with the choices Daenerys has made in her journey but there is no precedent for the writers encouraging us to believe that this has always been the obvious end to her character arc. They defended her, they propped her up as a heroine, they showed her having compassion for victims and slaves, they all but have a marquee rolling across the screen saying "root for her" during all her scenes for the past 10 years. THEY did that, not any Dany fans just wanting to whitewash her character. Pivoting from that for shock value shows that the writers don't even care about their own story.

And honestly if I have to rehash the concept of executing TRAITORS and how it is consistent with the narrative of THIS UNIVERSE one more time... It's not even worth it at this point. Dany executed those poor innocent Tarlys, Dany didn't cry at her psychotic and abusive brother's death, Dany burned the witch who wiped out her family, Dany crucified the masters who crucified children, blah blah blah fine. She did all those things. But guess what? She also cared so much about civilian casualties that she chained up her own children in a dungeon when there was even a hint that Drogon had torched that little girl. She has never sacrificed human life for the sake of her own fire-and-bloodlust. There has always been a cause and an effect. Period. Her vengefulness and lack of empathy has been towards her enemies and only them. She is purposely shown to be the contrast to ACTUAL crazy people who kill and torture for fun. Otherwise what is the point of her? If she is just another Cersei  or even Ramsey doing shit because she can then they could’ve gotten rid of her years ago. I can't believe that I, someone who doesn't necessarily care for Dany or all the "yas queen" moments we've gotten over the years, can see that plain as day. I don't think others who see the same thing hAvEn'T bEeN PaYinG aTtEnTIoN. I think D&D wanted to subvert their audience to cover up their own laziness and terrible decisions and people have fallen for it in droves.

[Constantinople]

12 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Why does Sansa have an instant hate on for Dany, when she can normally fake diplomacy with much worse people?

11 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

One she's a targ

As is Jon

11 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

And the only person on this show whos consistently been able to put family shit to the side a d deal with the bigger issue has been Jon

• Season 1: Jon tried to abandon the Night's Watch to join Robb
• Season 6: Jon tells Edd he's quitting the Night's Watch because his "brothers" killed him even though the threat from the Night King was still present
• Season 6: Jon only decides to go after Ramsay after he finds out Rickon is Ramsay's prisoner
• Season 6: After Rickon is killed, Jon throws away his army's battle plan and charges the Bolton Army

11 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

Aerys burned her grandfather and uncle alive

Jon's grandfather

11 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

Rhaegar stole her aunt and raped her

Jon's father

[terrymct]

18 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Last episode we saw Euron shooting Rheagal and Dany's ships accurately from good distance.  The real question is, why the hell did the best shooter in KL not sit in 1 of those scorpions when everyone KNEW Dany was attacking ??

Answer: D&D wanted to see KL burn to the ground 👍

I watched the episode again.   In The Bells, Dany and Drogon actually do things to avoid the scorpions.  They fly at the fleet from at a high angle and from the direction of the sun so as to make it difficult to get the scorpions angled up enough and to make it difficult for people to see.

When flying toward the walls of Kings Landing, Drogon skirts just above the water, which means that the scorpion operators on the ramparts of the castle have to take a few moments to all crank their devices so that they're aimed downward.  As soon as they start to fire, Drogon goes up high, above where the scorpions are aimed.  By that point, he's at the city wall and can start roasting the scorpion emplacements.

[One Tough Cookie]

I watched again yesterday and noticed tht in the middle of her rampage thru the city killing the innocents  Jon  and Davos shot each other a look  that  said "this shit has to stop" .  Jon's actions this week will be very interesting and as a Davos fan I hope he's in on it.

Edited May 16, 2019 by One Tough Cookie

[Lady S.]

Just now, screamin said:

Maybe, but if Mirri believed the Stallion was a true prophecy (and why not, it's a magical universe) there's no reason to believe Dany's child couldn't fight his way back to his dad's old position and beyond once he grew up and fulfil it.

  Hide contents

In the books, IIRC, Dany ALSO has a vision (in the House of the Undying, I think?) of a young man who looks like a combination of herself and Drogo conquering and burning cities. It seems like there was a genuine alternative future of Dany's son growing up and being the Stallion that Mirri's action blocked - with consequences unpredictable to her, naturally).

She may have genuinely believed that, it doesn't mean she was right anymore than Mel was right about Stannis being the messiah and Shireen's life being a needed sacrifice. And it's a magical universe which allowed Dany to get dragons through bloodmagic by burning Mirri (which Mirri clearly didn't believe would work imo), so I do question whether she really believed Rhaego would survive childhood to grow up to be Genghis Khan.   

I think only the show scenes are relevant here but

Spoiler

My interpretation of adult Rhaego there was an alternative vision where Mirri never got involved at all, not him growing up without his father, seeing as his death in the womb happened only after Drogo was already all but dead, thus imo his murder cannot be separated from Drogo's.   

Basically I just can't get behind pre-emptive murder based on crimes which might happen whether it's Mirri killing unborn Rhaego or Varys trying to poison Dany while still unsure of her "coin" and hoping he could be wrong.

Seriously Varys stayed loyal to the Mad King until the end and did his best to keep Robert on the throne while also conspiring to advance the cause of fucking Viserys, so I don't believe he was always concerned with finding a good, wise king nor that he would have ever betrayed Dany had he not learned Jon's true heritage. And how can he say that Jon, a man he barely knows, would be a wise king whose "coin" he was sure of? I haven't taken a bio class since high school and even I know that the idea of Jon's maternal genes "washing out" the paternal half which came from centuries of inbreeding is hogwash. If we're to believe that Aerys was genuinely a good guy in his early years as king then any young Targ's future is unclear.

[Constantinople]

Cersei putting Missandei back in chains and executing her represents everything that Daenerys has be fighting against. Yet that's supposed to be one of the reasons why Daenerys torches the city?

[RealReality]

1 minute ago, Constantinople said:

Cersei putting Missandei back in chains and executing her represents everything that Daenerys has be fighting against. Yet that's supposed to be one of the reasons why Daenerys torches the city?

Yeah, no, it's an excellent reason to roast cersei.  Maybe even an okay excuse to execute her court.  But townspeople who have no political power at all and kids who had nothing to do with it?  Naaaaaaahhhh

[DarkRaichu]

42 minutes ago, terrymct said:

I watched the episode again.   In The Bells, Dany and Drogon actually do things to avoid the scorpions.  They fly at the fleet from at a high angle and from the direction of the sun so as to make it difficult to get the scorpions angled up enough and to make it difficult for people to see.

When flying toward the walls of Kings Landing, Drogon skirts just above the water, which means that the scorpion operators on the ramparts of the castle have to take a few moments to all crank their devices so that they're aimed downward.  As soon as they start to fire, Drogon goes up high, above where the scorpions are aimed.  By that point, he's at the city wall and can start roasting the scorpion emplacements.

Those are all good tactics, except that in ep 8.04 we were shown that the scorpions on the Iron Fleet could be reloaded in 3 seconds and re-aimed down to hit Dany's ships as quickly.  The scorpions were de-buffed in 8.05 since they took much longer to reload and aim.  Plus the ships were ALL OVER the bay, meaning flying in front of the sun may blind the ship directly below Drogon, but the other ships farther away should still be able to see Drogon just fine.
All moot points really, since Drogon gained the ability to fly supersonic speed (ie. God Mode)

I don't know why I am typing all these since we all know consistency means diddly squat for D&D 😄

Edited May 16, 2019 by DarkRaichu

[DarkRaichu]

12 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

I wonder if Sansa could end up being on the Iron Throne.  Maybe both Dany and Jon take a dirt nap.

At this point, Sansa becoming the queen after Jon and Dany off each other is an outcome some viewers might expect.

Hence, there is 90% chance is not going to happen since D&D love to subvert your expectation 😄

[paigow]

4 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

At this point, Sansa becoming the queen after Jon and Dany off each other is an outcome some viewers might expect.

Hence, there is 90% chance is not going to happen since D&D love to subvert your expectation 😄

Even if Sansa ends up winning the game, she will be knocked off within a year....

[DarkRaichu]

Just now, paigow said:

Even if Sansa ends up winning the game, she will be knocked off within a year....

Maybe it is just me, but I thought that was just general assumption for these kind of finales. ie. GoT series ends but the game continues.

[terrymct]

34 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Those are all good tactics, except that in ep 8.04 we were shown that the scorpions on the Iron Fleet could be reloaded in 3 seconds and re-aimed down to hit Dany's ships as quickly.  The scorpions were de-buffed in 8.05 since they took much longer to reload and aim.  Plus the ships were ALL OVER the bay, meaning flying in front of the sun may blind the ship directly below Drogon, but the other ships farther away should still be able to see Drogon just fine.
All moot points really, since Drogon gained the ability to fly supersonic speed (ie. God Mode)

I don't know why I am typing all these since we all know consistency means diddly squat for D&D 😄

I agree about lack of consistency, but disagree about the better approaches this week.   We stopped and went back over it a couple of times.  MUCH better than last week when Dany was la-de-da'ing down the coast and not thinking about Euron's fleet at all.

When she told Tyrion he'd been making mistakes, she had little room to talk.

26 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

At this point, Sansa becoming the queen after Jon and Dany off each other is an outcome some viewers might expect.

Hence, there is 90% chance is not going to happen since D&D love to subvert your expectation 😄

Gendry is still hanging out somewhere or other with his royal blood and new legitimacy.  He could end up on the throne very easily.

[Solace247]

On 5/13/2019 at 12:30 PM, Daisy said:

has Dany once this season taken a moment to figure out how this is impacting Jon? Nope. it's how it's impacting her, and her destiny.  While we saw some stuff through Jon's eyes - i really wish we saw more. this is what he chose. everytime he says "he doesn't want it, Dany is my queen." every pass by Dragon - instead of Arya trying to escape ground zero  - i wanted Jon to truly soak it in. this is what he's allowing by not pressing his claim.

This is precisely why a shortened season 7 and 8 was a ridiculous notion. Where we left off in season 7 was completely replaced by side-eying Danaerys (insert ominous music here), muting Jon ( he has nothing to say to anyone, apparently) and carrying over Sansa and Arya's bizarre characterization from last season with the added anvil that Sansa is super smart now since she apparently got the script for episode 5 early.

None of the conversations onscreen were designed to flesh out the familial relationship in light of the legitimacy claim or vice versa. Nor did anyone address Dany needing to earn the Northerner support—accept that she helped prevent the end of the world, but whatever. None of the advisors advised Dany in any way—they merely talked amongst themselves about marriage whilst failing to mention to the parties involved—even to just be shot down? Come on.  But we’re supposed to believe they’re afraid because of a shitty post war dinner? Ridiculous. This season placed heavy emphasis on two mediocre battle episodes with very little dialogue to the detriment of nearly EVERY major character. The only characters allowed to act like themselves were the minor ones who have little dialogue to begin with, but were at least allowed to be consistent.

 This may have always been heading this way, but they had to HEAVILY pivot all the characters to make it happen—including Danaerys, from the beginning of this season. I never really liked most of season 7 because it came across as heavily contrived, but in light of season 8, I think they majorly bungled telling this story well. The stupidity and lack of conversations between all the characters has left me feeling nothing for any of them. Hell, even Davos has had one conversation this season—bringing up the most obvious attempt at a solution that isn’t even attempted. I don’t believe anything that we’ve been shown this season, because NO ONE is allowed to act smartly. NOT ONE PERSON.

Edited May 16, 2019 by Solace247

[GiuliettaMasina]

1 hour ago, sumiregusa said:

And honestly if I have to rehash the concept of executing TRAITORS and how it is consistent with the narrative of THIS UNIVERSE one more time... It's not even worth it at this point.

I’d try to add to your point by citing paragon-of-virtue Ned Stark executing a deserter in the first episode, but apparently it should have been obvious to me that I was supposed to view Dany’s actions differently because a) he swung the sword himself (never mind that a dragon can’t be swung and that women not being given combat training was previously a season long plot on this very show), and b) beheading is painless (never mind that it’s not or that we’ve been shown onscreen that dragon fire can cause instant death). 

[TigerLynx]

10 hours ago, Nanrad said:

Dany not reacting to Viserys getting his golden crown doesn’t prove she had hints of insanity. Viserys abused Dany her entire life, told her that he’d let a thousand men and horse rape her for the throne, and threatened to cut her unborn child out of her stomach. Him being her brother is irrelevant if he’s caused nothing, but pain and turmoil.

I love your entire post, but especially this part.

The Hound told Sansa if she had left KL with him none of what Ramsey had done to her would have happened which is probably true, but Sansa shouldn't have to have a man/guard around 24/7 to keep from being brutally raped and beaten.

I'm disappointed Sansa and Dany didn't get along.  I wouldn't blame either of them if they decided to burn every man in Westeros to the ground.  If Princess Shireen's ghost showed up to help them out, all the better.

[ulkis]

12 hours ago, Coxfires said:

They could have had all major plot points be the same and that would have been fine had they organically reached them. But NO! They wanted to be done with it so what should have been 2 seasons was reduced to 6 episodes and that left me with a bad taste. When you are a show that brought back event TV, you can't settle with being just OK, you need to be great and this season definitely is not.

Well you can when it's the last season I guess.

1 hour ago, sumiregusa said:

If she is just another Cersei  or even Ramsey doing shit because she can then they could’ve gotten rid of her years ago.

You could say that for most of the characters. It comes down to D&D (and GRRM) thought he would finish the books and have a blueprint all the way though, and so didn't plan accordingly. They should have known that him not finishing was a bigger possibility than him finishing it and planned out everything from the beginning.

[Constantinople]

Tiny nitpick

While Daenerys is rampaging through King's Landing, we hear one red shirted resident yell "My God!" (at least, that's what was in the captions).

Shouldn't that person have exclaimed "Seven Save Us!" or "Mother Mercy!" or some such?

[Drogo]

Just now, Constantinople said:

we hear one red shirted resident yell "My God!" (at least, that's what was in the captions).

"My Gods!"

[Bali]

32 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Tiny nitpick

While Daenerys is rampaging through King's Landing, we hear one red shirted resident yell "My God!" (at least, that's what was in the captions).

Shouldn't that person have exclaimed "Seven Save Us!" or "Mother Mercy!" or some such?

Compared to the Starbucks cup or Jaime's right hand, yelling My God is nothing.

[terrymct]

46 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Tiny nitpick

While Daenerys is rampaging through King's Landing, we hear one red shirted resident yell "My God!" (at least, that's what was in the captions).

Shouldn't that person have exclaimed "Seven Save Us!" or "Mother Mercy!" or some such?

Unless the person was a follower of the Lord of Light or the Many Faced God.   

[proserpina65]

23 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I don't recall her Season 6 threat.  Her season 2 threat was a desperate, idle threat with her and her people dying of starvation and thirst at the gates of Qarth.   

The ninth episode of Season 6 (Battle of the Bastards), when she returns to find Meereen under siege by forces from Astapor & Yunkai.  She threatens to burn both cities to the ground, never mind that most of their population is comprised of people who've been re-enslaved by the Masters.  Tyrion has to talk her out of it.

[DarkRaichu]

2 hours ago, terrymct said:

I agree about lack of consistency, but disagree about the better approaches this week.   We stopped and went back over it a couple of times.  MUCH better than last week when Dany was la-de-da'ing down the coast and not thinking about Euron's fleet at all.

Her tactics looked great on screen.  However to make those work effectively to defeat ALL Euron's ships, the showrunners needed to change what they had established in 8.04 regarding how scorpions work and throughout the series regarding how dragons move and shoot their flame. 

Consistency matters.   

Edited May 16, 2019 by DarkRaichu

[proserpina65]

22 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

Cersei will never look white and fluffy no matter what Dany or anyone else does.

Exactly.  Dany finally giving in to her worst impulses doesn't wipe away all the terrible things Cersei has done.

[Nashville]

18 hours ago, paigow said:

Genocidal??? Burning KL is the warning message...her goal is not to kill EVERYONE in Westeros... 

Of course not - unless they piss Dany off. 😉

17 hours ago, taurusrose said:

I disagree. Sansa was being bitchy under the guise of asking a legitimate question. I can’t stand Sansa so anything Daenerys said to her is fine with me. Sansa was smug and insolent every chance she got.

Sansa’s statement to Dany about the troops may have been honest, or maybe not; IMHO the real issue is that by this point in time, Sansa has (sometimes deliberately, sometimes maybe not) cultivated such a toxic relationship with Dany that Dany can no longer afford to take Sansa’s statements at face value.  Dany has no choice except to challenge anything Sansa says to some degree, in order to determine the legitimacy of Sansa’s statements/opinions - and those which cannot be defended by fact will, in all probability, be discounted as simple obstructionism.

Does it impede free and open discussion?  Sure - but Sansa built that house with Dany, so now Sansa has to live in it.  And likewise for Dany.

[Katsullivan]

14 hours ago, Daisy said:

and it's not like Dany was all warmth and sunshine and Sansa shut her down.  they were equally passive aggressively bitchy towards one another.

Ummm... Dany met Sansa and told her that she was pretty and so was her House. She was nice and friendly. And even after the nonsense "what do I feed these armies that have come to help me?" stand-off, it's still Dany that comes to Sansa and offers her pieces of intimacy (her feelings for Jon, her ex-husband) to win her over. Sansa just sneers and smirks in response. Dany is fighting overheard while Sansa is hiding in the crypt, bad-mouthing her. 

When one person is being a bitch and another person is making nice, that's not "equal" passive aggressiveness. Only Sansa stans trying to justify her nonsense can conclude this.

14 minutes ago, Nashville said:

IMHO the real issue is that by this point in time, Sansa has (sometimes deliberately, sometimes maybe not) cultivated such a toxic relationship with Dany that Dany can no longer afford to take Sansa’s statements at face value.  

Thank you!

[Drogo]

In this conversation between Varys and Tyrion before the Blackwater, both the bells and escaping from Kings Landing are spoken about.

"I've always hated the bells. They ring for horror, a dead king, a city under siege."

+

"The map you asked for."

"There must be 20 miles of tunnels underneath the city!"

"Closer to 50.  The Targaryens built this city to withstand a siege, and to provide escape if necessary."

Did Daenerys know Kings Landing was so well-suited to an escape with its underground tunnels full of wildfire?  Were these some of the bedtime stories Viserys told her? 

Could that be why the bells set her off?  She knew a surrendering Cersei could have easily been on her way out of KL by the time the bells were rung, so lighting up the city and all of the wildfire caches would ensure her enemy's demise.  Those who got in the way unfortunately got in the way. 

Not saying it's right, but it's a potential motive.

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, Drogo said:

In this conversation between Varys and Tyrion before the Blackwater, both the bells and escaping from Kings Landing are spoken about.

"I've always hated the bells. They ring for horror, a dead king, a city under siege."

+

"The map you asked for."

"There must be 20 miles of tunnels underneath the city!"

"Closer to 50.  The Targaryens built this city to withstand a siege, and to provide escape if necessary."

Did Daenerys know Kings Landing was so well-suited to an escape with its underground tunnels full of wildfire?  Were these some of the bedtime stories Viserys told her? 

Could that be why the bells set her off?  She knew a surrendering Cersei could have easily been on her way out of KL by the time the bells were rung, so lighting up the city and all of the wildfire caches would ensure her enemy's demise.  Those who got in the way unfortunately got in the way. 

Not saying it's right, but it's a potential motive.

You left out the best line:  

Varys:"I've always hated the bells. They ring for horror, a dead king, a city under siege."

Tyrion: "A wedding".

Varys: "Exactly."   

2 hours ago, Drogo said:

"My Gods!"

I've always loved when they subtly played on the polytheism of Weseteros in their sayings.  It was a small detail that made perfect sense, that easily could have been overlooked.    

"Gods, I was strong!"

"Seven hells!"  

[sadie]

There’s one thing I don’t think anyone has commented on. When Dany and Jon are discussing Varys death she says to him “now Sansa knows what happens to people who find out the truth about you”! Whoa! What? That line was straight out of the abusers handbook of the “I only hit you because you made me do It”.  I thought it showed her true colors, she doesn’t care what is right at this point she only cares that she is queen and she is willing to try and manipulate Jon into keeping quiet because he now knows she will kill to keep it quiet. It was the most chilling scene of this ep for me.

[Katsullivan]

On 5/15/2019 at 9:09 AM, taurusrose said:

 I think Dany's default is "blood and fire."  I think it's really in her genes.  Still, she has tried to hold her worst instincts at bay until the series of events that broke her in Westeros.  

Fire and blood isn't inherently evil.

“the real enemy is the cold.”

D & D forgot this and apparently, so did a lot of the audience.

[Advance35]

Quote

There’s one thing I don’t think anyone has commented on. When Dany and Jon are discussing Varys death she says to him “now Sansa knows what happens to people who find out the truth about you”! Whoa! What? That line was straight out of the abusers handbook of the “I only hit you because you made me do It”.  I thought it showed her true colors, she doesn’t care what is right at this point she only cares that she is queen and she is willing to try and manipulate Jon into keeping quiet because he now knows she will kill to keep it quiet. It was the most chilling scene of this ep for me.

But that's always been Dany in my eyes.  It was easy enough for some to hand wave because her "victims" were abhorrent themselves.  But the monster has always been there.  I didn't see Sansa say "Dacharys."  Sansa is unable to "make" Dany or anyone else do anything.

She revels in sitting and passing judgement on mere mortals.   When she was in Mereen, she burned a man alive and didn't even know if he was guilty or not.  She didn't care.  She was feeling vexed and decided to instill some fear.   And some are shocked she went on a mass killing spree?

And that Noble in Mereen didn't want to marry her as I recall.  She insisted, through command, that they be betrothed.   The worst thing that ever happened to him.  But she's the worst thing that's happened to many people in this story.   

So her routine with Jon, is pretty lock step, her usual MO.

Edited May 16, 2019 by Advance35

[SNeaker]

4 minutes ago, sadie said:

There’s one thing I don’t think anyone has commented on. When Dany and Jon are discussing Varys death she says to him “now Sansa knows what happens to people who find out the truth about you”! Whoa! What? That line was straight out of the abusers handbook of the “I only hit you because you made me do It”.  I thought it showed her true colors, she doesn’t care what is right at this point she only cares that she is queen and she is willing to try and manipulate Jon into keeping quiet because he now knows she will kill to keep it quiet. It was the most chilling scene of this ep for me.

What she said was:

"Now she knows what happens when people hear the truth about you.”

What I got from that was that Sansa now knows that when people hear the truth about Jon, they abandon Dany to support him, whether he wants the throne or not. Just like she told him they would.

 

[proserpina65]

14 minutes ago, SNeaker said:

What she said was:

"Now she knows what happens when people hear the truth about you.”

What I got from that was that Sansa now knows that when people hear the truth about Jon, they abandon Dany to support him, whether he wants the throne or not. Just like she told him they would.

 

I saw it as a veiled threat.

[Katsullivan]

On 5/15/2019 at 8:39 AM, Bryce Lynch said:

But, again, I think Dany had every reason to burn Mirri in revenge. She betrayed her horribly and killed her husband and son.  But, I also get why Mirri did what she did.

And the problem is that the audience always wants the story to be black and white. They need Mirri to be good and Dany bad. The idea that this was a complex situation, and was supposed to be a lesson about how good intentions can never be enough... just loses people. Is anyone really surprised that D & D just made the show dumber and dumber over the seasons?

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Nashville said:

Of course not - unless they piss Dany off. 😉

Sansa’s statement to Dany about the troops may have been honest, or maybe not; IMHO the real issue is that by this point in time, Sansa has (sometimes deliberately, sometimes maybe not) cultivated such a toxic relationship with Dany that Dany can no longer afford to take Sansa’s statements at face value.  Dany has no choice except to challenge anything Sansa says to some degree, in order to determine the legitimacy of Sansa’s statements/opinions - and those which cannot be defended by fact will, in all probability, be discounted as simple obstructionism.

True, but I think the more important thing going on in the scene isn't that Dany can't trust Sansa's advice it's that Dany thinks asserting her authority (over Sansa or anybody else) is so important she won't check it out herself, even if it's important to interests.

When it comes to Dany's past I don't think the important stuff is her reaction to violence, whether she's violently punishing people (in ways plenty of other people do) or not reacting with sensitivity to others committing violence (which others have also done). It's just how invested she is in her image of herself as queen. Basically exactly what Tyrion and Varys talked about--she thinks she has a destiny, she thinks she's larger than life, she thinks whatever she does to claim the throne is moral because her being on the throne is the greatest moral good of all. And Tyrion even argues against it from her pov, gives the reasons why her life has given her reasons to believe this, so she's not just terrible or insane. 

There were times where she made the right choice along the way, especially with people trying to influence her that way, but ultimately this won out. Setbacks like Varys's ridiculous (for Varys) betrayal, Jon telling Sansa, Sansa telling Tyrion, Tyrion telling Varys are things she's reacting to, but imo it's absurd to say that this makes these people also responsible for her burning down the city. That decision couldn't be more completely Dany's in that moment and for her own motivation. And her reaction does pretty much prove the thing they were afraid of. Sure they're actions led to her doing it, but that's because the potential was there are along. Them having to make sure they didn't do anything to cause her to do that is the "why did you make me hit you?" argument.

Also re: Sansa not trusting Dany I don't think that has much of anything to do with her being a Targ. She's mistrustful because she wants to rule the place and her being polite and friendly doesn't change that. It's the authority that's the problem.